When Anxious People Try to Perfectly Fix ... EVERYTHING (Episode 74)

SPEAKER_02 0:01

How do I fix this? I'm a perfect fixer, and so I definitely had that mindset when I became really unwell with anxiety. Well, I've fixed everything that's ever been thrown at me. Why can't I fix this?

SPEAKER_03 0:12

My anxiety would make me want to fix things that non-anxious me probably wouldn't like, but would never think needed to be fixed.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

But I think it's this mindset and this belief that we are fixers, which, well, is a trap I certainly fell into.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

The first step in fixing is finding out why. But why? Why does it happen? But then you can't figure out why, because you feel this way because you feel this way, generally, in anxiety disorders.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

There's a core belief there that we think we're broken. And what's the antithesis of broken or the opposite of broken?

SPEAKER_03 0:44

It's fixed. What a crazy merigrant that you can't get off after a while. It was exhausting.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 74 entitled Perfectly Fixing Everything. In this episode, Drew and I tell you how to perfectly fix everything, because we know, as anxious people, that's what you want. My name's Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in the world of anxiety and in and in anxiety disorders. I'm a previous sufferer, podcast co-host, social media prancer arounder, and author of the book, and how does that make you feel?

SPEAKER_03 1:27

And I am Drew Linsolata, the other co-host of Disordered, also a social media prancer arounder. That's the best title ever. But uh, I'm a uh a practicing therapist under supervision, specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders in the US, and all the other stuff that Josh had too. Former sufferer, author, advocator, educator? Don't know. All around goofball. Welcome to episode 74. Worst introduction ever. I'll take I'll take the hit on that one.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

It's okay. We're I don't think we've ever nailed it. Um perfectly fixing everything when I was anxious. I I'm good, I'm good. I'm a problem solver, Drew. I c as soon as I woke up that morning and developed my anxiety disorder. This is something to fix. Everything's wrong, and I'm gonna fix this. And I'm gonna unlound look where I am doing really well. Uh if the audio is a bit off, it's because I'm on holiday, but I don't want to let people down on Fridays. Um, but yeah, we wanted to discuss this really interesting topic, which is yeah, how how do I fix this? Am I I'm a perfect fixer? And yes, I definitely had that mindset when I became really unwell with anxiety. Well, I've fixed everything that's ever been thrown at me. Why can't I fix this?

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Yeah, makes sense. I I think there's so many good themes in this episode. We'll hit on perfectionism, we're gonna hit on just general anxiety, gad. And for me, the the experience was that my anxiety would make me want to fix things that non-anxious me probably wouldn't like, but would never think needed to be fixed or addressed or or banished. So there's that, and then the you know, there's the perfectionistic part of it that like, am I fixing it right? Am I recovering right? Am I handling my anxiety right? So what a crazy meriground that you can't get off after a while. It was exhausting.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

It is exhausting, and um when Drew and I were talking about what you know, discussing what we talk about today, this is a theme that comes up with a lot of people with anxiety disorders, I'd say the vast majority, which is there is this mindset and this will kind of hark back to a very early episode about the attitude shift. And if you've not listened to that episode, we can highly recommend it. But it's this whole notion of there's a problem and my threat response is telling me there's a problem because it's doing its job, it's not your fault. And because there's a problem, everything I've done up to this point in my life is to give it my attention and fix it. If there's something wrong with my car engine, I'm gonna give it my attention and fix it. If I'm gonna you know, if there's something wrong at work, I need to give it my attention and fix it. In your personal life, yeah, you would. It has your attention, the anxiety wants you to give it attention, and so it is natural to want to fix it. But I think it's this mindset that we have and this belief that we are fixers that and this almost metacognitive belief that when I give something all of my attention, the more attention I give it I can fix it, then the quicker I can overcome anxiety, which well is a trap I certainly fell into. What about you, Drew?

SPEAKER_03 4:42

Oh yeah, because the the harder you try to fix it, the worse things tend to get because you're trying to fix a problem that doesn't have a fix. Or to me, I I usually for myself for a while when I first started to suffer, but also when you hear from large numbers of people in the community surrounding the work we do, the first step in fixing is finding out why. So everybody gets stuck. But why? Why does that happen? Can you talk more about why do nocturnal panic attacks happen? Why do I get this symptom? Why does this happen? Is this have something to do with my childhood? Why, why, why? Because like you said, if your car is broken, you gotta figure out what's wrong and then you fix it. So the natural tendency if you're a fixer and a problem solver and a I get things done is first I have to figure out why I feel this way. And then once I figure out why, then I can fix it. But then you can't figure out why, because you feel this way because you feel this way, generally in anxiety disorders. And so I can't find a why. So now I'm gonna try and fix it all willy-nilly, because I don't even have a plan. I'm just gonna try and fix the symptoms, I'm gonna try and stop myself from having thoughts, I'm gonna try and stop myself from having emotions, and that's exhausting and it doesn't work. So we we apply our like amazing problem solving and analytical skills, which puts us at the top of the food chain in places where they do not belong.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, also it plays into the core belief, and if we're looking at cognitive behavioral therapy, it plays into a core belief that people with anxiety, whether it's panic, GAD, OCD, etc. There's a core belief there that we think we're broken. And what's the antithesis of broken or the opposite of broken, it's fixed. If I believe that I'm broken, I'm going to behave like I'm I'm going to try to fix myself. But what's that signalling to your brain? What's that signaling to anxiety? And bear in mind your brain is watching your behaviour more than your thoughts. Yeah. And particularly our friend, beginning with Amygdala. He is watching us and observing that we are behaving in a way where we believe we're broken in some way. And so it chimes in and gets the hamster wheel rolling. And don't underestimate the power of the belief that you think you need to be fixed.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Yeah, and I think you know, the belief that if I'm under threat, certainly I I address that, right? Like, of course, I'm not supposed to feel this way, that I'm threatened in some way. There's a danger, there's something wrong. I have to fix it. That's certainly this guy. Amygdala. Like you said, but then the belief that you are broken starts to become this guy. It's Craig the critic. Right? Like, I'm not something's not right with me. You're not supposed to feel this way. You're not supposed to be afraid, you're supposed to be able to control this. And he'll just keep like, You gotta figure this out, dude, because this is not right. You're not supposed to feel this way.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

And that comes out as uh rumination. Oh, yeah. Googling, threat monitoring, body scanning, all fixing behaviors, which reinforces the belief that you're broken.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

Yeah, yeah. I'm broken or I'm in danger. This is a threat. I can't handle this. Which is sometimes the same thing. I'm so weak, I'm broken that I can't handle this adversity. I'm not capable of that. I'm a weak person.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Why do you think it is even worse than because we get someone someone asked us, we get this question quite a lot, but why is this particularly bad if it f if this problem falls at the doorstep of a perfectionist?

SPEAKER_03 8:24

Oh, I mean, cuz because that perfectionism to me, one of my interpretations there is that is such a strong part of your identity and where you get your self-worth. Like I was either praised for doing things very well, maybe by my parents or my social group or whatever, or I just felt good about myself when I get it right, or other people can't seem to get it right, but I can, and that makes me feel good. And then when I can't, who even am I now? I I'm I'm not I've lost myself. I'm the person that fixes things, I'm the person that gets it right. I do it the best. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

Or even the habit of in the past where there's been a problem, and because and we spoke about this briefly in the past on the podcast, but I wanted to bring it to the surface again. The brain we we always get involved, so if it maybe maybe it's just by simply worrying. There's something I'm worried about which odds on will probably fix itself without my intervention, but I didn't give it the chance to leave it alone to turn my back on it. And lo and behold, the problem fixed itself. And the c but because I worried during that, a part of my brain apportions credit to the fact that I worried about it. Like in some way, I had this kind of influence on what was happening because I was worrying, because I was emotionally invested in the in this. Yeah. This certainly applied to me when I was struggling. Like if I keep worrying about it, then it will go away. This applies to people who are surprised when they're not anxious.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

When they're like, oh wow, I'm not anxious. Well, what does that tell you? It tells you that all your focus has been on fixing, uh on hyperfixating on it, and the worry in between these key events. Um and yeah, if you're a fixer, it's usually down to perfectionistic tendencies. I need to get it right. I need to get involved so much that it gets better, but also I'm someone who likes to give everything my full attention until it's okay. And I think this applies to pretty much well, the vast majority of people probably listening to this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 10:36

Yeah, you're right. I and there's so much there. And what you just said that was really good. I think especially that thing where like now you're you're not feeling anxious, you get a little break, which you certainly deserve. It'd be great if you weren't anxious today for a while, want you to feel good. But and then you start to worry. Why, why am I not? How did this because if you're fixing, usually it's like, no, no, I'm I'm all these things that I do, my remedies, my herbs, my oils, my thinking, my rumination, my constant Googling and researching and learning and asking and listening to podcasts, that makes me feel better. Because sometimes it does for a few minutes at a time or a day or two at a time. That's true. But then, like you said, you just you decide that that activity is what's responsible. So you start to believe that since I can fix the way I feel, I make how I feel. I control that. But I don't know what I did to not feel anxious today. I how did I make that happen? What did I do? How can I replicate this? I don't know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

How can I bottle it? Yes, I don't know what I did. Bottle it and use it.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

Thank you. That's exactly right. So a fixer, somebody who is obsessively fixing how they feel all the time, can't accept that they just organically have mood shifts and changes in their affect and changes in their focus, like regular non-anxious people do. So it's like, well, I have to know why this mood happened, even though it's a good mood, so that I can control that and make it again. That's part of fixing too.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Yeah. Yeah. And it it's a mindset as well. Even before the anxiety disorder, I think it's it's sometimes it's it's your mindset. So and this applies to people who don't have disordered anxiety. So you asked, asked Drew and I maybe we're lucky and have a good, solid eight hours sleep. Perfect sleep. Maybe the watch has told us. I mean, I don't track this anymore, but like maybe the watch has told us we've had the perfect balance of REM sleep, deep sleep. You could it was perfect. I've had the perfect statistical sleep you can imagine. However, we wake up in a bad mood, sluggish, brain fog, maybe we're anxious. I don't know. Maybe when we don't have the results that we'd associate with perfect sleep statistically, the person who's a fixer will be annoyed at that, will double down, analyze why their mood is not great, why they do that. Whereas Drew and I now be like, oh, that's sod's law, isn't it? I have the perfect sleep and now I'll wake up feeling like rubbish. Well, I'm gonna get on with my day. Where and similarly on the flip side, some I've said it a few times in this podcast, I've had some of the best days of my life on like one hour sleep. You know, um because we're starting to fix it, we're just trying to hack our way, biohack, or just find reassurances, or bottling that feeling of relief that we're trying that that of yeah, we're trying to we're trying to capture it. You're like trying to capture this firefly of relief, bottle it so you can use it whenever you want. It doesn't work like that.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

Yeah, and then those are control strategies. I think the sleep is a great example. One of the and you know what? I can speak to that a little bit. Like I do use my Apple Watch and an app to track my sleep. Why do I do that? Not because I think I can control how I feel. In fact, I I am certain that I cannot. I know this to be true because just literally yesterday my sleep score was 100, and I I was dragging all day long. I was had a crappy day yesterday. So it didn't matter. Well, I use it so that it keeps me accountable for like bad habits. Like I know if I have a drink, if I consume alcohol at night, I'm not gonna sleep as well. That's true. If I eat too late, I'm not gonna sleep. So that's why I use it. But the key here is having had to come to the realization that, like, well, I could try to engage in good habits. There's nothing wrong with that. But if it does not have the desired result, which is I wake up in the morning all bright eyed and bushy tailed because I got a perfect sleep score, then oh well, there's nothing I can do about that. I'm still gonna have to do the best I can with whatever the day is when I wake up. Doesn't matter what the app says. And I think that's a very difficult thing for fixers, anxiety disorders or not to accept. Because that is, I have to abandon my control strategy and move more toward an acceptance and navigation strategy. I don't like that. I can't, I'm a controller.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

I wish I had the words earlier as well. People are like, what does acceptance look like? I think it's more of a case of, well, this is what it doesn't look like.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

And it's you trying to fix it.

SPEAKER_03 14:59

Yeah. And I think that's why we use terms like willful tolerance or surrender. Or I, you know, if you're having a hard time understanding what acceptance is, try just stop resisting. Let your reality be whatever it is. That's a hard message for a fixer to hear or a controller or an anxious person who wants to feel better because sometimes they interpret it as so just let bad things happen to me passively forever. No. But you have to start to recognize again the things you can actually do something about. My car is making a loud noise when I'm and I need to fix it. I can do something about that. My partner is literally abusing me. I can do something about that. My boss is a moron and doesn't pay me enough. I could do something about that. How I feel and what I think are not problems to solve, they are experiences to have. And that's where a fixer, especially in an anxiety situation, gets tripped up. What do you mean they're experiences to have? Well, they are.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

So yeah, and just gonna remember each time, and I did this, each time that you end up doing that, what happens is that you send a message back to the brain that look, there's something wrong here. And a lot of people were trying to fix the alert feeling. I don't like feeling alert, I don't like feel, I don't like feeling really cautious, I don't like feeling uncertain, on edge, I don't like these physical symptoms and experiences. Well, when we behave in response to them in a way that's thanking it, and actually behaving like there is something wrong, don't expect these things to turn off because we're behaving like there is still threat.

SPEAKER_03 16:33

Yeah. Yeah, that's why the control strategy backfires in the end. It gets you caught on a hamster wheel that you can't get off. And then the fixing and control strategy even swings the other way. You might say, Well, I want to fix and control to eliminate these bad feelings, but then invariably it winds up bleeding into, well, now I have maybe no feelings, I'm feeling neutral, I don't can't recognize what I feel like. That's still not right because I need to fix to create a specific feeling. I'm not just trying to squash the bad feelings, I need to make a good feeling, or this is not right. Perfectionists are often there, they're looking at the mood, like I don't understand. I have nothing to be anxious about, or I have nothing. I've had clients say to me, and I'm not even practicing that long, but it's a regular occurrence. I have no why do I have what reason do I have to feel sad today? Talking about perfectionism. Stop blaming that's Craig the critic. 100% talking about perfectionism and like trying to fix your your emotions. That's that's so not fair.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Yeah, yeah. What have I got to moan about? I hear that a lot as a as a therapist as well, which is you know, I had I had a perfect childhood. I did all this. I don't deserve to feel this way. Well, then you're trying to fix how you feel and you're resisting how you feel. Right. Can apply it to anyone.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

Yeah, it's tough, man, because that and that habit I think can lead to it can get you stuck, like you said, it backfires and keeps you on alert, keeps you in that active fixing mode instead of that willful tolerance, surrender, acceptance mode. And it also can lead you to draw conclusions about your prospects or your prognosis. Nothing works. Because all the fixes I try either don't work at all or they only work temporarily until my very smart threat detection system morphs around it to make sure that it stays on alert. Like, no, no, you're not gonna flu me that quickly. I'm here to keep you alive, dude. So, like, now that you got your heart rate under control, let me just give you globus sensation. And then then you feel like I'm never gonna get better. I this is never gonna work. I can I now I'm stuck in the idea that I'm never gonna recover. So fixing is a is seems like a good idea, but it is a bad idea.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

What's that pawn shop meme, Larry?

SPEAKER_03 18:41

Best I can do I can give you is yeah, we need we should we should make one of those and we we hang up and we can we'll do that. Best I can give you is air hunger. Best I can do is air hunger. Oh, that is totally a pawn stars thing. When I'm I want to be fully recovered, best I can best I can do is air hunger.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Um talking of cars, actually, we we heard a really good dinner anyway. I'm not sure if we we've got it, but um the easy way. If I want to sell my car, the easy way to do it is take it straight to the carriage, let them lowball me. But I've fixed the problem, I've sold my car over now, you know, probably missed out on loads of money, you know. But it's fixed, it's done. I don't have to feel uncertain, I don't have to feel anxious. What would be the best way to do this pragmatically?

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Well, I I think we have two people that found a really good way to address that. So should we hear from them? Oh, yes. Let's do it. That was a great setup, dude. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name's Cheryl, and you can use my name. I just want to send a did it anyway on behalf of myself and my partner. So we both have disordered anxiety and don't enjoy uncertainty. However, at the weekend, we embrace that uncertainty by selling a car through an online auction rather than playing it safe and selling it at a pre-agreed price at a local garage. So we use the online auction because it was financially better for us to do it that way. However, it comes with a lot more uncertainty and uh a lot of a lot more waiting around uh before any sort of certainty comes. Uh so we both really stepped into that uncertainty, went with it. We both felt really anxious, but we didn't let it dominate. The anxiety took the back seat, and uh we did it anyway. So, really, really delighted. Honestly, don't think we would have been able to do it without listening to this podcast and everything, um, all the principles that you've been teaching through it. However, we were both able to give ourselves individual credit as well and high-five each other uh and give ourselves the credit because it's a team effort from everyone, but also an individual achievement. So, really pleased. Thank you for everything you do.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

Great idea, that was.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

That was really good. Well done, guys. And um congratulations to you both.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

Yeah, really good. And like that is a great way to address that because you have no idea. You could get low ball from some dude from Cardiff, and and you don't know that's gonna happen. So, like, love it.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

Yeah, that Drew's taking a pop at the Welsh 100 Welsh fans. Come in, send some hate mail, address address your messages to Josh and Drew.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

Anyway, it was really good. Thanks for sharing. It's a good way to like not fix, I don't like uncertainty, and instead of fixing it, I'm literally gonna invite the feeling in and all the emotions and thoughts that come with it. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Yeah, it was really, really good. Well, when was it the moment for you then to realize I just keep trying to fix everything and this isn't helping?

SPEAKER_03 21:52

It was kind of the moment, and this is interesting because if you think talking about like meta beliefs, it's the moment when the negative meta beliefs comes shining through when you start to recognize that the fixing, or you know, like when we talked to uh Rihanna about metacognitive theory, my ruminating habit or my worrying habit, my thinking habit, my fixing habit, this is making me worse. Like you start to have the realization at one point that like I can't do this anymore. And I will tell you that I I probably learned that lesson more so when I was going through my like antidepressant sort of the withdrawal thing. And I I I talked about that in in the Anxious Truth podcast, just search for SSRI on my website and you'll see that story if you want to hear it. I was obsessively every day refreshing the pages on the with the Paxel withdrawal forum that I was on. Like I was so invested in that all I all I wanted was to see a new post. I would no joke dude I would sit at my desk and I was so keyed up because I was kind of suffering in that situation. I would refresh every minute just to see if somebody had posted something new. How insane is that? And I finally realized at one point this is actually making my situation worse. So I would honestly have to say it wasn't directly related to like my panic disorder and agoraphobia recovery. I learned that lesson when I just had to figure out I just have to let time pass while I go through this this medication experience that I was having. That was a huge lesson that I was able to bring in when I finally had to like do this without meds and do my recovery work.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Would you say that when you were kind of compulsively like refreshing forums I've done this as well or I tried to find the person online who represented exactly me to the point of my height, hair color genetics everything just to tell me I was okay. Would you say that that you were doing that because you wanted to fix yourself?

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Oh 100% I was looking for something I was trying to fix two things. I was trying to fix the immediate feeling that I had which was I need something right now to bring this down and soothe me. And also I'm looking for something that's going to interrupt this bad experience and make it stop so I can get better. So there was there was two problems it was like the immediate fixing and then the the deeper fixing which is I want to fix the condition that's causing this. And I it was really hard. I I I was so caught up in that that that was I remember the moment I was sitting at my office in the building that I used to be in at my desk just like freaking out just dying to run out of there and go home and like this was making me worse. And I I had to turn off the computer and just sit there for a couple minutes and that sucked but it was a big moment.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Yeah yeah yeah mine was similar as well I remember I was obsessed with derealization for ages and just I was sat there like trying to look for it trying to see if it was going and I was doing this for sorry I was doing this for so long that there was a moment I was like I've been doing this for months and I don't feel any better perhaps that was it. I I had an epiphany when I realized I was distracted. So I think my mum got me out of the house one afternoon and I managed to distract myself even in the height of anxiety I had no idea what was going on I had no psychoeducation but I remember yeah my mum took me somewhere for the afternoon and there was just like 30 minutes where I just wasn't anxious. And then it dawned on me this is an attention thing. Even though it feels like so immediate that I have to fix it. Look what happened and look at the power of your attention when you were distracted and that's when it start the ball started rolling here because I realized that when I was distracted I might have been realized I might not have been it didn't matter you know and but then as soon as I went back to my default you talk about the default mode network and stuff I realized actually non-anxious me how can I expect to feel like non-anxious me when 99% of my day is behaving like anxious me how can my brain associate things in my life when I'm not behaving that way I can't expect to fathom or conjure a feeling when I'm not behaving that way.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Yeah yeah that that's like lately I've been you know I'm such a geek with this stuff I am like eyeball deep in these predictive processing models of well I'm when you get back from holiday I am going to bend your ear on it for sure and we'll talk about it but you're talking about exactly that you you tend to get what you expect. So like if I'm always in fixing mode which means I'm always paying attention to how I feel then I'm gonna get what I expect. My experience my what's the word I'm looking here the subjective experience that I have because we could both be in the same room listen to the same band drink the same beer and still have two different experiences my subjective experience is going to close more closely match the model that my brain is hanging on to the predictive model which is I'm expecting I need to look for these things I need to find fixes. I'm always checking to see how I'm doing and like so that's what you get that's what we get.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Yeah it's really and then for the and then the perfectionists will then beat themselves up and like why aren't I feeling happy here I've everything all the criteria has been met. Yep but now I don't feel happy and then immediately they get sucked back into fixing mode.

SPEAKER_03 27:18

Yeah because the perfectionist model has is is predicts a certain thing and then the reality doesn't match that and the error correction goes haywire in those models. It's this is a great model you're gonna love it because it explains so much of what the stuff that we do. But yeah and that that perfectionism will just drive no no I can't error correct to match my reality I'm gonna keep trying to hammer reality with a big hammer to make it be what I I need it to be. Like that's and that's such a that again exhausting and and you know a little bit of a futile effort over time.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Yeah definitely definitely and just I remember doing that myself in the past um not necessarily with anxiety but that notion to fix how I feel to match how it should in the moment.

SPEAKER_03 27:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:00

So in the past I would make poor choices with alcohol and other things because I was chasing it trying to make my brain feel like what it should in air quotes feel yeah in that situation. But then you start getting into a habit of fixing it again and fixing it more and fixing it more and once once that becomes your habit behavior in response to anything and then you develop an anxiety disorder you've only got one go-to I shouldn't be feeling like this in the supermarket I shouldn't be feeling like this with my kids I shouldn't be feeling like this on holiday. Well I'm gonna go into fixing mode and the irony and the paradox of that is is that you miss everything because you've gone into your own internal universe and you're ignoring the one in front of you.

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Yeah that's exactly right I'm constantly evaluating how I feel what I'm thinking is that right if I need to do something with that I put my hands in the gears and wrench on them and make it better and that is not the way we're meant to actually live I don't believe that's the way a human is meant to live minute by minute all the time.

SPEAKER_02 29:03

I fixed a fan belt once that's the peak of my conventional masculinity.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

Oh I used to I was wrenching on my cars all the time when I was in high school because I was broke I couldn't afford a mechanic so I'm gonna replace the water pump on my 351 Windsor engine on the street in front of my house like reading the children's book. I'm old you know but uh yeah so I did my share of that I don't I ain't doing that anymore I'm done with that but local heart Rob is there. Rob me to tell you the story of the time that I replaced my my exhaust system and then decided to test it at 110 miles an hour not on the expressway. And that was thank you. Shout out to Suffolk County Sheriff's Department for that encounter when I was about 17. So yeah that was good. Yeah yeah yeah don't do that no don't do that uh official uh disorder advice don't do what Drew did when he was a stupid kid but anyway the um yeah the fixing thing could be really it can drive you to the point where you start to just get super frustrated and think you're never going to get better and nothing works why can't I figure this out and so what do you do if you're a fixer in the end if somebody's listening and they're like this is me and I can't I'm stuck on it I can't stop trying to fix how I feel what do I do it's tricky as well though because think about the people like actually no I do take my CBD oil and I have done that and I do feel better.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

That doesn't help in the long term because what you've learned there is that your short-term intervention led gave you a little slice of what you wanted which is not feeling anxious. Now we're saying you can get to a place where you're not feeling anxious. Yeah but it's very confusing and we don't blame people.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

This is why anxiety disorders are so annoying is that you will do little short-term interventions that often turn into compulsions then they work and then they don't work you know and then so it's almost suggesting that well that can work because I've done this and that helps me or my friend does this and they do deep breathing when they're anxious and then they're calm but I'm trying all these things and they don't work yeah maybe it's time to turn our back on it and see what happens yeah it's allowing the I mean I the only word that I it's probably the wrong word but I use the word organic a lot like the organic ebb and flow of experiences and context that we're in and we might be in a good mood in the morning and not so good mood in the afternoon because that's just the way we are and so I think what happens is this is where you wind up with this giant arsenal. Anyone who's ever left a house with an arm full of anxiety fixes knows how that is. It started with a bottle of water then the mince then the oil then the cold rag then the ice pack then the snack then the like because I can't get any one of those to work consistently so I need to have all of them available so I could cycle through them frantically at any given time to find the right fix in that moment. But because I don't know why the breathing didn't work this time because you're different 10 minutes ago than you were now. Like that's just the way life is so that's a hard pill to swallow though. It's why it's so important to get the credit for uncertainty like getting the credit for tolerating uncertainty because if you're a fixer think about it you know you're a fixer when you're looking for tools fixers find tools and if you look at your life look at all the tools that you've done maybe it's avoidance maybe it is something literally like a physical object yeah maybe it's uh maybe you're monophobic and there's a certain person maybe the tool is not going to certain places uh rituals mantras tapping whatever you've trying to find the tool there's no magic tool you are right the tool although that's an insult in this country you tool he tells me but like he says it to me every magic tool no you are a tool um you know also a great grunge band what's so funny about that is another good indicator that you might be stuck in fixing in perfectionist mode is when you listen to people like Josh and I you listen to disordered or you read the books we write or whatever or people who sound like us or your therapist are you looking for instructions or are you looking for principles that you can follow? If you are looking for instructions all the time, but what about this feeling but what about when I'm at work but what about and you just want us can you talk more about how many times have we heard that hey great episode on like air hunger can you talk more about that well what else are you expecting us to hear what more do you think we're gonna say after 45 minutes on that topic we haven't done that episode by the way and we probably won't but if you are always looking for instructions what do I do you're fixing if you're instead trying to say where's the manual and then you think you need instructions for every symptom every context every person every trip I need to know how to go to the supermarket go to the mailbox go to a party get on a plane no if you can go back to like what are the general principles I keep hearing these two guys talk about over and over and over now you're at a fixing mode and you're in allowance mode like I can apply the principles no matter what the discomfort is I can apply the same rules I'm not fixing I'm learning to move through it.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

So and it's simpler in the long term as well so much simpler there's less to think about it if you if you have to have a manual for every single situation in life where you're anxious. No don't get me wrong there's nuance and complexities to to each situation but in general there's m a lot of similarities and it's usually I'm fearful of anxiety I'm fearful of losing control and I'm fearful of what people think of me. But the principles pretty much apply to to all of them.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

Yeah that's exactly right and I think if you are threat is real yeah if you've been one of those people and I know we both heard this too I'm just the kind of person that's better with concrete steps to follow. I I mean I know you've had this I've had people like when my Facebook group was was active and it by the way if you're trying to join my Facebook group there's nothing there's all the old stuff there but I'm not there. So don't sweat it if you haven't gotten in the group I'm not even there to answer your questions. But we would get that all the time like but no no no I I would do better if they were just can you just give me steps? I'm like well there are no steps for this no no but there must be steps but but there are no steps for that but there must be you know so the if you're always insisting that there must be steps and there's a reason why you don't hear me and I won't speak for Josh but I suspect we're the same. Do you ever hear us give you acronyms? Never because those are instructions. And then people in a triggered state are like wait but what what letter do I do next? And I hey if you love acronyms knock yourself out. I ain't trying to pick on anybody with acronyms but like there's a reason why I don't use them.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

Yeah yeah it's and it it's unpicking the hurdles of what it is to do things like exposure and leaning into uncertainty and stuff. Yep yep um there's like there's things like the DARE response which I don't you know it's basically exposure therapy if and a lot of people listening to this would have probably you know done the DARE response. It's basically just go and do your exposure yeah you know whilst whilst remembering these things uh I'm not bashing it entirely I just just think it's needs to give more credit credit to CBT and exposure therapy. I would agree. But for some people when they technique and turn DARE into a tool these are the people that say actually that doesn't work for me. It was because it depends on your relationship with it.

SPEAKER_03 36:37

Yeah a couple of years back and listen if if Michelle Aida if you're listening to this I do dig you guys just so you know and if if you also follow along with the DARE people about two years ago Michelle and Aida invited me to do their monthly webinar whatever it is they do. And it was so interesting to see two qualified therapists that that administered the DARE online program and a room full of people as they're trying to tell them to stop trying to do the letters like that is the entire program is based on this acronym and the letters the steps that you do and here they people get so focused on it that I was dumbfounded to watch them struggle to try and no no no back it's okay don't worry about the letters like don't worry about the letters but people wanted to use those as I fix it by following the it was fascinating and listen they're great I'm not bashing them at all. I love both of those guys but like it was so interesting to see how that dynamic was playing out it was I could almost see the exhaustion in the room like no no stop no no don't worry about that am I doing the A part right? Am I doing the R part right? No no no stop don't worry about it like just have the experience yeah because the it's a room full of fixes right and listen I don't think we either of us would blame people for trying to fix it. Of course you want to feel better it's not that's not accusatory. You're not doing it wrong but like yesterday on Instagram on my Instagram I posted about the mosquito thing I had a mosquito stuck in my car was banging his head on the windshield for five minutes instead of turning around and flying out my window if you keep banging your head against the windshield and you're not getting out of the car nothing's changing then it might be time to abandon your fixing strategy or at least consider that it's not working.

SPEAKER_02 38:07

Maybe you were just playing heavy metal oh I didn't think about that he was into the Pantera maybe he didn't need to fix himself maybe he didn't need a structure maybe you need to just leave him alone just enjoying the music the mosquito was just trying to live his best life and here I am thinking he's trying to get out of the car and he's headbanging.

SPEAKER_03 38:25

I don't even think I think it was listening to an audio book not everything is an anxiety disorder Joe. Come on oh touche very good anyway um should we use a few minutes to go through that we have um we have another audio did it anyway we have a a question what do you got on your end I've got a written did it anyway and a written question.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

I'm just aware of the time so what do you want? Um let's do the written did it anyway how's that okay sure let's do that um here's a nice short one hi Drew and Josh I have a long history of anxiety and panic attacks and recently started to develop agrophobia after a breakup I have found the podcast very helpful and I am working with a therapist and beginning to do exposures. I particularly like the idea of what would non-anxious me do. Today I showered washed the dishes ate normal meals and exercised. I also did a few exposures taking some steps away from my house and seeing what would happen. It still feels very daunting to me but I think I'm on the path to recovery. Thanks for all you do.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

Oh I love that it's really good I would see what happened my favorite part I knew I knew you'd like that yeah I'm a big fan of that really good I like to talk yeah well done exposures as experiments do an experiment like that person did. What happens if I do this?

SPEAKER_02 39:47

Yeah and also that that exp that's a really good did it anyway it doesn't matter we get some very kind of the not theatrical but you know did it anyways that uh people fly around the world etc whatever that's just the same you just taking steps away from your home is just the same it's the same fear you're leaning into excellent point.

SPEAKER_03 40:06

Well done you're right doesn't matter how little it is um should we do a question?

SPEAKER_02 40:11

Sure what we got I got a question.

SPEAKER_03 40:13

Um this person did not ask uh did not say we could use your name so we won't I just wanted to ask if you could do an episode well we won't do an episode but we will answer try and answer the question now on anxiety at work I find dealing with panic disorder in my home life is manageable mainly because nothing is a must-do at home whereas at work I have to go there's so much pressure with the what if you lose your job what if I can't do the presentation what if it gets so bad that you can't go into work etc etc and that's the question. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Can you do you want to answer your own question?

SPEAKER_03 40:46

I can see I can see do I look like I'm chomping at the bit to answer the question? I mean I think to me the the hints there are there's so much so at home I don't have to do anything. So at home if I try to tolerate or accept or surrender to my anxiety or experiment with it and it doesn't go so well it's okay I can go back to my old stuff because no one's expecting me to accomplish anything but at work I have to commit to feeling the anxiety and that's I can't I can't do that.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

So is it really a work problem or is it a work is just a context where you would be sort of forced to actually commit to having the experience that's my first response to that I think that's yeah spot on response um also yeah we get it there's more stakes now there's judgment you don't want to appear again air quotes like weaker maybe it's you don't want people it to affect um career opportunities etc because there are judgmental people in the world we know that um but also most people can't see your anxiety your anxiety with will it feels like it shines a huge spotlight on you and your center stage and the crucible is staring at you no that's not how it works um and I would take inspiration from last in it anyway and go and see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 42:05

Yeah exactly exactly I would attach it to let's we'll you rewrap it up by going back to the topic of the episode sometimes this is yeah but if at home if I do all my fixing things because you know if I get too anxious I have to fix it but at home I could do all my fixing things I can tap I can go to the bathroom I could do cold water I could do ice I can't do that work because then I won't do the presentation oh you know so is that the problem that work would prevent you from doing the evasive action the fixing so there you go tie it right back look at that for a callback anyway that is good there's some kind of semblance of theme in this episode it's almost like we know what we're doing almost almost yeah yeah do we have any did you say we had an audio did it anyway we do have an audio did it anyway it'd be nice to end on a positive note this is a good one so let's hear it because uh do I have it queued up I do here it is hi Josh and Drew uh my name is Kayla uh you can use my name I'm from Windsor Ontario in Canada and I just wanted to share a did it anyways with you guys. I am extremely agoraphobic. I have really intense health anxiety all of these things started but six years ago when I was postpartum I also developed a panic disorder I have social anxiety and depression and all the comorbidities. Recently I went on a trip to Cuba and I was extremely nervous about the flight and I was really nervous about not being close to a hospital even though I've never actually had anything wrong with me. I started listening to your podcast and I started reading Josh's book and it just helped me do things anyways. And that was my entire mantra for that trip was anytime I was afraid I was just gonna do it afraid. And I invited my anxiety to come with me every day whenever I felt it and told it a couple times I'm like you can come with me but it's gonna be boring was so afraid of having a panic attack on the flight or during the trip or on the flight back and I ended up not having any panic attacks which was really cool but also a little disappointing because I felt really prepared for it. So yeah I just wanted to share did it anyways I went on the plane I went on the trip I had I ended up having a really great time I ate food that I was afraid of eating and I just wanted to share it with you guys. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

Awesome that was amazing well done that was that was excellent. It's a good example of like the a small one and a big one but they're both equally important a trip together yeah and some momentum as well though the Billy Mays would have been proud of that I'm not done yet not only that but I've I've arrived and I'm gonna eat some food I've maybe not had before and lean into all that uncertainty which and there's been some wonderful examples in this episode.

SPEAKER_03 44:47

Really good. I think again we'll tie it back in before we wrap it up she did not try to fix it. She was prepared to just let it happen I ain't gonna fix it and disappointed I know that's always a big shift when you hear people say like damn it I wasn't anxious I was hoping to practice that's always a really good sign. So that is a really good sign yeah okay well it's always a pleasure absolutely man thanks for interrupting your holiday and recording this one with me appreciate it. So I might might do another one while I'm on holiday as well oh you maniac he will not how to deal with how to deal with sunstroke in anxiety is hiding in a like darkened AC kind of you know hotel room right now as you get out of the steering spot I am that person like not I just I love being in the air con. Yeah it is hard to argue when it's stifling hot out there feels so good when you walk inside yeah I don't need to do a did it anyway I'm like no I'm fine I'm fine I'm gonna relax purely avoiding 37 38 degree heat I'm very happy with that anyway guys thanks for listening if you want to participate in an episode of disordered by sending it a question or a did it anyway audio email whatever just go to disorder.fm and all the buttons to do all that are there check it out that's where all the episodes are too and what else we good no we're good thank you Drew and thanks everyone for tuning in and uh yeah we'll catch you soon we will see you next week