Anxiety And The "Yeah But" (Episode 171)

Josh Fletcher 0:01

Oh, I probably don't have a brain tune. Well, I probably don't have this and that one up.

Drew Linsalata 0:05

Yeah, but I love that you brought up the yeah, but as in a denying wins. I did something I haven't done in three years. I faced the fear. I got it through I did it. I thought I had to leave, and I didn't. Yeah, yeah, but I had my water bottle in the car. Stop. Take a breath.

Josh Fletcher 0:18

You did a good thing.

Drew Linsalata 0:20

Yeah, but death is real. Yeah, but I am gonna die. Yeah, yeah, but health is important.

Josh Fletcher 0:25

It's probably anxiety, and I'll leave it alone. Yeah, but your second cousin, remember, he ignored that sign of in his lungs and he had a cough, and actually it turned out to be something quite serious. If you're dancing the just in case dance, the yeah but is the little bridge clap underneath, you know? Keep an eye on it just in case. Yeah, but what little phrases do you hear like yeah but that keeps your attention?

Drew Linsalata 0:53

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 171. Today we're talking about anxiety, anxiety recovery, and yeah, but yeah, but it's uh there's always a yeah but. And uh today we're gonna talk about all the yeah buts that come up in therapy and in the community and all the exceptions to why the rules should never apply to you. I am Drew Linsolata, uh, one half of Disordered. I'm a therapist that specializes in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders, practicing in New York, uh former sufferer of the stuff we talk about here, an author, co-author, guy with microphones and cameras that likes to talk about anxiety disorders. And I'm joined as always by my co-host, who is Hi everyone.

Josh Fletcher 1:28

I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist, an author who specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders, previous sufferer, yap on about it, advocate for it, advocate for, you know, psychoeducation, real advice in a world full of misinformation and nonsense. And um, yeah, I would like to bring the compassion and knowledge to this wonderful podcast. What are we talking about today, Drew?

Drew Linsalata 1:53

We're talking about yeah, but which is uh a humorous kind of subject, but I think it's the it's a phrase that starts many sentences in the work that we do.

Josh Fletcher 2:00

Yeah, but oh yeah, we hear it. It's it's it's often banned in in our practices, you know, like where yeah, but uh arises with like because the anxiety wants you wants to have your worry as the focus of attention and any disruption to your particular what if and anxiety, whether it's your bodily sensations, whether it's an intrusive thought, whether it's health anxiety, its whole purpose is to gather your attention. So you can try and reason with it. Oh, yeah, you know, like oh, I probably don't have a brain tune, or I probably don't have this and that one. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, and then when that seeks into our own semantics, we hear it as therapists or critical people, where they're like, you know, oh wow, you you went to the you went to you went to the supermarket or you went on that long drive with anxiety and and nothing bad happened. Well done. Yeah, but no, no, no, full stop. Yeah, period. You know, you we can move on to changing the goalposts and and new goals later. Yeah, but yeah, but I got I got anxious. Yeah, but yeah, but the anxiety was bad. Yeah, but how do you know? Yeah, but I uh and that's what we're gonna talk about today. If you're a yeah butter, you're gonna have be your the retort is going to be yeah, but dab but do but do. I might start doing that in practice. Yeah, but no yeah, no yeah, but yeah, um, but should we uh should we listen to something that doesn't include a yeah but?

Drew Linsalata 3:30

Yeah, there's no yeah button in this, and it it targets one of the most common fears that we hear, so let's have it.

Speaker 3 3:37

Hi there, my name's Susan, you can use my name. Um this is just a did it anyway. So um I just went to the dentist, like I'm I'm just out of the dentist and for the first time in four years, because I've just been avoiding it like crazy, and it went really, really well. No issues at all, he says, and he gave me a clean, and I have to say my teeth are really looking well, guys.

Speaker 2 3:58

The burden of not doing something is way, way, way heavier than the burden of just going and doing it. I've noticed. So I'm absolutely pleasant. Thank you so much for everything that you do. Um yeah, thank you so much.

Drew Linsalata 4:17

Oh, Susan.

Josh Fletcher 4:19

I like that, wouldn't it? Yeah, I like how the um how happy she felt as well. Yeah, proud of us. You can sense you can sense it in the tone. Yeah, well done. Uh, I went to get my hair and my teeth done or whatever, you know. Did she then bring it into the therapy? Yeah, but I was in there and I got anxious, yeah, but whatever, yeah, but I'm not anxiety free. Yeah, no, she didn't yeah, but do it. She was like, Yeah, but okay, I did it. Anxious, great. That's all that was asked. Yeah, a little bit at a time.

Drew Linsalata 4:48

I love that you brought up the yeah, but as an like denying wins or minimizing or being self-critical. I didn't really thought about it. It comes up all the time. All the time. I just dismissed I did something I haven't done in three years. I faced the fear, I got it through, I did it. I thought I had to leave, and I didn't. Yeah, yeah, but I had my water bottle in the car. Why is it a thing? I don't give a crap. Like, so what your water bottle was in the car. Tomorrow, next time you leave it home, who cares? But you did something you didn't do in three years. You were brave, you heard the run signal and didn't obey it, found that you can handle it. Yeah, but and the smallest little detail that ruined it. And this is for the perfectionists. We are bullying you.

Josh Fletcher 5:24

We've this is pure bullying. Stop saying yeah, but like full stop, stop, take a breath. You did a good thing. Yeah, you you're this is progress, it's not linear, it's a little bit at a time. Desensitization can't be done at a click of the finger, you know. And so now don't get me wrong, it's not dismissing concerns and reflections, it's an invitation to pause and be like, Oh, yeah, I did do that thing. Okay, let's sit in that for a bit.

Drew Linsalata 5:50

Sure.

Josh Fletcher 5:51

That's good. It's positive reinforcement for the brain, you process the good tricky stuff, and then you move on to the next thing. Yeah, or if it's you know, I mean, OC pure OOCD is if you're OCD, you you hear, yeah, but every time you're triggered, yeah, you know. So you try and argue and ruminate with it, you know. Um, the doctor said my heart was fine. Two specialists said it was fine. Yeah, but yeah, but maybe the fourth specialist will find yeah, yeah, right. Okay. Yeah.

Drew Linsalata 6:22

Yeah, but doctors are wrong. Or my favorite one is, you know, uh people who are struggling with things like existential themes and are that are not solvable. They're simply not. Death is gonna happen. And they will be yeah, but yeah, but death is real. Yeah, but I am gonna die. Yeah, yeah, but health is important, you know. So I I think we start from the premise that like the only reason why your thoughts are intrusive and is that they are key they are geared at something that is important to you. Underneath all, uh in my view, all underneath all OCD themes is a value that has been co-opted and twisted and turned against you as a weapon. So, like, yeah, the reason why it bothers you is because you care about that. It only confirms that you care about this thing, it doesn't confirm the disaster, but that will drive the yeah, but yeah, but health is important. Yeah, but I'm a parent. I can't like health anxiety. When we wrote our book, we wrote about that. Yeah, but I yeah, but I can't take that kind of chance. It's my health, my kids, I can't, I can't be reckless.

Josh Fletcher 7:12

Yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but it's it's always yeah, but everyone's gonna hate this this episode. Yeah, big I've said it so much already, it just sounds like silly noises. Sound like a little like a toad or something.

Drew Linsalata 7:21

Semantic satiation, that's called. It has a name. Semantic satiation.

Josh Fletcher 7:25

Oh, I can never say satiation. I know it's a tough satiation. So I can't say it. Yeah, um, oh, there's always a yeah, but in many things, but remember anxiety's whole purpose is to keep your attention, you know, and it will convince you that to chase the illusion of a hundred percent certainty, and it will utilize guilt, and it will utilize all the weapons in the arsenal to get your attention. So, and it will also twist logic, you know. So, like uh, you'll go like completely um uh what's the non-sequitur reasoning, but it feels real because you feel scared. So, like uh, oh, let's use the heart example or whatever, you know, there's something going on. What if I've got a blood clot? What if I've got a blood clot? Well, the doctor says I'm not, and to be honest, I don't think I have. I'm pretty healthy, you know. It's probably anxiety, and I'll leave it alone. Yeah, but your second cousin, remember, he ignored that sign of in his lungs and he had a cough, and actually it turned out to be something quite serious. And it it just takes a story that has nothing to do with you, it's not even the same symptom. And it will sometimes just twist the logic to be like, that's why you need to keep an eye on me. And as we know, anxiety disorders, sensitization is all about dancing the just in case dance. If you're dancing the just in case dance, the yeah, but is the little bridge clap underneath, you know? Keep an eye on it just in case, yeah, but da-da-da-da-da. And it's just the same, it's just it's the part of the same thing. It's all designs keep your attention. So point and try and point out the little things that keep your attention. Anyone in the studio audience today, if you want to contribute, what little phrases to you here like yeah, but that keeps your attention, you know, and I bet people can relate to it.

Drew Linsalata 9:22

Oh, 100%. And like the the it false or misuse of logic is anxiety's great power, too. Like the the logic it's and if you're an ICBT person, congratulations. Yes, I'm nodding to you. But like the use of the logical rules are good, just that they are completely misapplied. So anxiety is all about deductive logic. Like your brain has already decided that you have a blood clot, and its job now is just to find supporting evidence. It already, it's already made its choice, it already knows you are dying, and now it's just going to use logic to like, yeah, and and I yeah, but I heard it that story about that guy, they thought it was just panic and he died. Yeah, but my friend's daughter's friends out of town, Dog Walker, had blah blah. So it's going to use all of those logical rules and to just support the conclusion. It has already drawn. Uh yeah, too. Yeah, but is it yeah, but is like, nope, I don't believe that. Just say you don't believe that yet. I'm too scared to test it. Okay, cool. That's better.

Josh Fletcher 10:15

One of the coolest things audience as well. Yeah, like yeah, but what if that's the best yeah? But you and no one else can prove proves always in the OCD, one isn't. That's right. You need to prove it won't. It won't. You can give all the it's like, I don't know. I I I don't I don't mean to be dismissive, but you know, if anyone believes the earth is flat, I'm not gonna persuade you otherwise. You know, I could spend all day trying to do it. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Your mind's made up. Same with anxiety and OCD. You can spend all day kind of proving, you know, but it's not interesting. It's mind's already made up, it just wants your attention. Yeah, you know. Uh there's loads of I just it's one of mine. Oh, that's a good one.

Drew Linsalata 10:55

I just, yeah.

Josh Fletcher 10:56

The word just. Um, yeah. And and here's an interesting one, you know, and this is where logic kind of ties in. So someone said it's tough because doctors have failed me and my family. Okay. And that's great. But look what anxiety does, it others. So, and not dismissing you've been let down by a doctor or two. Right. But now it goes no look, all the medical field have let you down. Only the anxiety is the one that's true, that's truly looking after you. I've been let down by doctors, my family's been let down by doctors. Yeah, but then also in many occasions, think about all the times doctors haven't let you down. And actually, there's some medicine and you feel good. Yeah, excuse the logic just to keep all of your attention. Trust no one and only focus.

Drew Linsalata 11:41

Yeah, but, yeah, but, yeah, but the first this is uh just a very quick story. First time I ever went in a casino, I'm not a gambler, but uh first time I ever went in a casino in my life, I was playing roulette. And roulette, if anybody knows about roulette, is it independent trials.

Josh Fletcher 11:53

The the number I can't imagine you had a roulette for. Yeah, kind of flipping the table. Absolutely.

Drew Linsalata 11:59

Well, you know what was the most frustrating? It wasn't losing or winning money. It was the woman next to me who kept commenting, like, no, don't bet that number just came up two minutes ago. And I'm like, okay, let's crack my knuckles and do a statistics lecture. These are independent trials. That number is just as likely to come up a hundred times in a row.

Josh Fletcher 12:14

That it didn't come up though.

Drew Linsalata 12:16

She didn't, well, it didn't, but she she couldn't have her brain around that. And that's like an anxious brain doing, yeah, but, yeah, but yeah, but doctors let me down. So since it happened yesterday, then the the misapplied logic driven by fear and a pre-drawn conclusion is that it will in fact happen today. But that's a mistake. We don't know that. Now, I think uh, you know, the lie when you apply the logic of, say, for instance, what this person is saying, doctors have let us down, it means in the future you may be a little more cautious, maybe get multiple opinions, maybe a little bit more diligent. Cool. That's a good use of the experience. But the conclusion every doctor will kill me now, eh, not so much.

Josh Fletcher 12:52

That's yeah, but it it's like a sequential, non-sequential generalization. So you you take a sequence of events and make a generalization, and anxiety will do that. 100%. Not just you, your anxiety will. Yeah. Uh Gambler's fallacy, someone says in yes.

Drew Linsalata 13:09

Yeah, there you go. She was writing down all the numbers so she knew what not to bet on. I'm like, that's that doesn't work.

Josh Fletcher 13:14

I wonder Gambler's fallacy is actually very similar to anxious compulsions and inwards compulsions and behaviors, isn't it?

Drew Linsalata 13:20

Well, in a way, uh, that that whole variable reinforcement of a slot machine works a lot like the anxiety, yes, in a way. Like sometimes the tapping works, and so I I gotta I'll do it again. I'll pull the slot again because this time it might work, this time the magnesium might work, this time the the breathing might work, this this time the acceptance might work, but next time it didn't, so I have to try something different.

Josh Fletcher 13:43

So, like I didn't die because my safe person was there. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of crazy.

Drew Linsalata 13:47

Yeah, just to be safe, says another member of our audience. Just to be safe is another phrase I use. Because I think my preparing and ruminating is keeping me safe. So the GAD people in the audience listening. Yeah, I know. You think you're you think you're predicting, protecting, creating outcomes. No, no, you think you are. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, but but what kind of a parent am I if I don't worry? Yeah, but yeah, but I have to worry because I'm a loving spouse. No, you don't.

Josh Fletcher 14:13

Yeah, and we invite you, uh listener, just look out for those yeah, but not a it's not a criticism, it's just how your thoughts, it's how your brain tries to hijack your attention. Yeah, you do really well if you can spot the yeah, but oh yeah, there's another yeah, but right. And and um, if you have dementia phobia and fear of going crazy, a good exposure is to spot your yeah, but's at home and in front of loved ones scream yab yeah, but dabba do. Um it's a good exposure because everyone will then think you're crazy. Uh, but they just do it to make yourself laugh.

Drew Linsalata 14:43

You know, but I think there's one thing that's really difficult about the yeah, but is in the mo and listen, I did yeah, but too. I mean, we all did it. We were loads 100%. I mean, you're not failing if you get trapped in yeah, but we we both did it. But in the moment, the yeah, but feels completely valid and reasonable, you know. So like it's sometimes, and and we were joking about this before we we turned on the cameras, like often in my practice, and it depends on the person and the relationship I have with them. You read the room, of course, but there are times when I will literally like do talk to the hand. So when the person launches into, yeah, especially if they're down the road a bit, like especially when somebody launches into yeah, but the hand goes up, like a big stop sign. Ah, we're not going there. That's not that's not right. And it would almost seem like, oh, that's so uncaring. That person, like, but that's important to them. Well, no, we can validate you know, maintaining your sanity is clearly important to you. That is correct, but the way you're trying to go about it is not correct, and it's ruining your life. So we're putting we got to be really aggressive sometimes with the yeah, but even if they reference something important, this is important to me, but the the strategy my anxiety is giving me is not correct, even though it's important.

Josh Fletcher 15:50

Yeah. Someone someone asks, is the trick to just totally ignore the yeah, but well, you can't, it's impossible. But you just be like, you acknowledge the yeah, but do you then want to go down that ruminating hole and behave like a yeah, but or just always come back to well, what would non-anxious me do? Right, what would I do here? How can I turn off this threat response here? If I start behaving like the yeah, but is real, I'm thanking that threat response, so don't expect it to turn off.

Drew Linsalata 16:17

How about expecting the yeah butt? Expect it, you know they're gonna come. I I often teach this, and it's it seems to be quite effective. Like, expect it when you wake up tomorrow morning, just expect that I'm probably gonna get triggered, I'm probably gonna feel these things, I will probably have the symptoms that are dogging me, and I will probably have yeah, but my my anxious brain will argue in favor of the the avoidance or the escape to try to keep me safe. I already know. So when you hear yeah, but you already know, like, oh, there it is right on schedule. Every time I follow it, I hate that I followed yeah, but if you can look back to every yeah but and say, why did it trick me? Well then okay, well, here it is again. Can I make a braver choice this time and not follow it? I hear it, but I'm gonna roll the pentamillion gun and not follow the yeah, but and see what happens. Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 17:03

Uh also, do you know what I said before about like how anxiety can weaponize your other skills like guilt? It also weaponizes stubbornness. So I'm looking at like the OCD crowd here. Hey OCD community, um I am one of you. Uh how many people with OCD when their theme, and they probably look back and they've had an old theme, but at the time, the yeah, but is yeah, no, this theme's different. Oh, I can do contamination theme. Oh, yeah, but yeah, but that's silly. I I'd rather have that person's theme. Yeah, but this is different. This is involves my kids. Yeah, but going insane, this is different. My cousin went insane. Yeah, but this is my heart. I have a history of heart problems in my family. Yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but and it's just like, no. And that's where it starts to make the theme special. No, mine's special, mine's unique. I've unlocked a new type of anxiety that you don't know about, and the rules are different for me. But when you zoom out, it's compulsions and attention and avoidance.

Drew Linsalata 18:14

Which is something that I guess it was maybe one of the live streams where we were in the Zoom room in the app the other day, and somebody asked me what which is harder to deal with as a therapist, like panic disorder or OCD. And my initial response was OCD. Now, all anxiety disorders will do this, but OCD is particularly stubborn, and it will you'll waste half of your time in therapy with OCD arguing that it's not OCD, it's reasonable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I know that's how OCD.

Josh Fletcher 18:38

Yeah, that's one of my favorite O C D ones. Like, how do I know it's OCD? Right. Okay, let's answer that in a minute. How often do you think of this? All day. Right. How often are you compulsively ruminating? All day it's OCD. Yeah. Yeah, how do you know? Just sproving it.

Drew Linsalata 18:51

Yeah. That's another one of those things that I tend to have done. But again, it depends on your relationship. But I I actually have, I usually roll just with a big marker, just the thing that says OCD, and I'll I'll just hold it up. Hello, this is that that's OCD because you have OCD. But OCD will argue that it's not OCD and it's using yeah, but yeah, yeah, but yeah, but this is different. Yeah, but this is spectral, yeah, but this is really important, yeah, but this is relevant, yeah, but this is responsible, yeah, but this is this is just reasonable, right? It's reasonable to do this. No, it's not yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, somebody just said OCD is like the kid in the classroom constantly raising their hand. That's pretty good.

Josh Fletcher 19:27

It's kind of that was me, and I'd also get the question wrong every time. Oh no, the audacity to stick up my hand and say and confidently answer the question wrong all the time.

Drew Linsalata 19:38

That like OCD, that's what exactly what OCD is. Actually, OCD raises its hand all the time and then answers the wrong question confidently wrong all the time. So it's really good. It's really good.

Josh Fletcher 19:49

Studio Honest Woman says, Mine is yeah, but as I'm older and I'm older, and I hear of people my age are dying all the time. So therefore I must give it attention. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, but and yet there's also people your age not doing that.

Drew Linsalata 20:05

More at any given moment, I don't care how old you are, more people are not dying than dying. I mean, maybe if you're 130, there's probably more dying 130 year olds, I guess. But I mean, yeah, uh no, I hear you. But that's that thing where it will co-opt the logic that yeah, but yeah, but people my age die. Yeah, but am I dying right now, or am I just worried about dying right now?

Josh Fletcher 20:27

Yeah. It's like yes, and for the theater people, someone says, Accept, then continue the scene anyway. Improv. Now, there's there are things worse than anxiety disorders being dragged up to do improv. That's very, that's terrifying. Uh, very good. I respect people that can do it.

Drew Linsalata 20:43

Worse than OCD is jazz hands.

Josh Fletcher 20:47

So um, yeah. I feel called out. Good. I hope we feel called out. That's very good. Uh, should we break up with a I've got to did it anyway. Yeah, have it originally. This one's from Sweden. Uh, and it's from John from Sweden. He says, Hello from Sweden, which means I'm using Swenglish, not regular English. That's it's more welcome. It's easier to understand than Drew. My name is John, which you may use. I first got sucked into a really bad period of panic syndrome, health anxiety, and a long list of phobos, and having COVID and got scared to death about not being able to breathe. I never had any trouble breathing, but got convinced I would suffocate any moment, as all those people on TV. Very common during COVID, that somatic breathing, breathlessness, OCD. Um, after CBT therapy, I got a lot better. Started with meditation, self-hypnosis, supplements, ice baths in the ocean all the time. I did so many breathing exercises that the app said I was a super saiyan guru. Suddenly, it all started getting worse again. For every breath work I did. I got deeper into a health OCD that was far worse than the first one. Started to get double heart thumps and skipped beats, which was a hundred percent horror. The doctor gave me a handheld ECG that I was to use at home, which was pure kryptonite. I used it every five minutes during the day and every hour during the night. Of course, it just told me I had atrial fibrillation, which then made me 100% sure I was dying. A real ECG showed that uh that was not the case. Just non-dangerous double beats. But at that point, I was not hearing that. Ah, interesting. I was not hearing that. There was probably a lot of yeah buts here. For the next four months, every heartbeat was like a hammer in my chest. I monitored them all. If my pulse got higher than 70, I was terrified. I got constant dizziness, bad DPDR, which made me scared of driving a car. Paid a lot of money to go to a renowned heart specialist, doctor, and did an ultrasonic scan of the heart and a work ECG with max pulse. He said my heart was tip top, everything looked perfect. Thought that would solve the problem. But the very next day I was already thinking he missed something. Yeah, but maybe he missed something. Uh, this is so good for this episode. Thanks to a new ECT therapist, as well as the outstanding material from you guys. Thank you. I slowly stopped with all my tools and methods. Good. Which was just as scary. All those things was my only security. This week, after a year of keeping the pulse below 60, wow, I took my first slow jog. With the key word being slow. I was sure I was going to die the whole time because my heart was going to stop. But I did it anyway. One of the biggest lessons from your pod for me is that the exposures did not have to be perfect. That has really been holding me back. If I was not going to the gym, maxed out on the deadlift, and then swim in the ocean with no fear, I was not doing it at all. Even though I was awake all night after the jog with the amount of adrenaline of a bungee jumper, I was so happy. Thanks for all your work and cheers from Sweden.

Drew Linsalata 24:12

Oh, and the swingglish was perfect. It was great.

Josh Fletcher 24:18

I often um pinch the line from Wolf of Wall Street there, like, heart rate, those are rookie numbers. We've got to get those numbers up.

Drew Linsalata 24:26

Yeah. 60? That's low, man. I kept my heartbeat under 60.

Josh Fletcher 24:30

My heart rate doesn't go to six. Maybe if I'm in deep sleep in the middle of the night.

Drew Linsalata 24:34

Yeah, you gotta you have to basically just be sitting still to try and stay under 60 or 70 beats.

Josh Fletcher 24:38

I I have a friend who's a professional footballer and sh her resting heart rate is like 38.

Drew Linsalata 24:44

Yeah, that's crazy, isn't it? Yeah, I'm just like but you know, that stuff can be easily fixated. But there's a great did it anyway. That the the you know, okay, I'm gonna take a slow jog. And the slow jog where you're really anxious and sure that you're gonna die is a that's an actual perfect exposure. So like I love that that person was also able to connect to like, oh, I was also evaluating whether I this was a good exposure. Was it perfect? Was it the textbook? Was it bragworthy? Should I was it Instagrammable? Like, no, it's whatever little thing it is, correcting me if I type your name wrong counts. Like if it makes you uncomfortable, it freaking counts. So good job combating the yeah, but yeah, I like that.

Josh Fletcher 25:22

And there's lots of yeah, but in the in the story as well. Like, no, no, yeah, but I mean the top heart surgeon. Right, there's no greater yeah, but doesn't matter. Like your heart's great, yeah. Wow, like I will have it. Want to swap? Yeah, you know, and and and no, he's missed something.

Drew Linsalata 25:39

Yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but come back to me, and uh and that's why it's so it doesn't matter, it's not about heart at all.

Josh Fletcher 25:46

Like people will still say it doesn't matter, and I didn't of your own religion didn't even hit the button.

Drew Linsalata 25:51

I know it doesn't matter. Oh my god, I guess I'm pre-conditioned, but it doesn't matter. Sleep anxiety isn't about sleep, health anxiety is about health, cardiophobia isn't about your heart. Because as you can see, no amount of heart data will make a difference. It's about overvaluing your thoughts and your internal experiences. Yeah, but I feel like I'm gonna die. So all the greatest experts in the world on hearts are moot irrelevant. Shut up, I'm clearly dying. Yeah, but you don't feel like I feel. So, like it's not about your heart. It's never gonna be, there's not enough heart information in the world to convince you. We have a member of our audio, yeah, the doubt. He says, I'm trying, uh very funny guy, by the way. I'm trying my hardest to get my heart's thing, resting heart rate down to one beat per minute for safety purposes. Difficult to do though. It's pretty tough. One, I'm trying to get to pulse of one. So really good because then I'll be safe if it's a little bit more.

Josh Fletcher 26:40

Like a fantasy novel.

Drew Linsalata 26:42

Yeah, like an old tree. Yeah, so floating in the vacuum of space for 30 years at one beat per minute. That's how you meant to stay alive.

Josh Fletcher 26:50

So but compulsing the whole time.

Drew Linsalata 26:52

Yeah, yeah, really good. Yeah, but is a powerful thing. Um on the front side, like in the moment. No, I can't accept and tolerate and soften and do all of those things because yeah, but yeah, but and then if I do do it, yeah, but I didn't do it right. Yeah, but everything and not even in the realm of exposures, people with things like social anxiety. Every interaction is full of yeah, buts afterwards. Yeah, but yeah, but did you see that look? Yeah, but did you see the that that gap before he responded to me? Yeah, but yeah, but they uh they, you know, the group text is quiet that they kick me out of the group text. Just imagine living all day long, everything you do has a yeah but exhausting, huh?

Josh Fletcher 27:25

Yeah, there's gonna be a time when you're gonna be like, well, you can chat away, but I'm gonna do this regardless. But here's the lovely thing the yeah buts get quieter and quieter and disappear or quiet and stay quite quiet for a long time, the less you engage with them. Don't get me wrong, your stress drug might fill up one day and feels resensitized and triggered. That's okay.

Drew Linsalata 27:45

The same rules apply. Interestingly, what will quiet the yeah butts is what Josh just said. Let them happen, challenge them, just let them come and go. You know, the other thing that quiets yeah butts, not doing your life. Like if you follow the yeah butts and you just sit on the sofa and don't interact and don't challenge it and just ruminate all day long and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and feel a little better in the moment, you have a lot less yeah, butts because as soon as it says yeah, butt, you follow it for the rest of the day and it's it's happy, it shuts up. Yeah, no, no, no. It only pipes up when you don't follow it.

Josh Fletcher 28:17

Yeah, here's a great comment. I like this from a studio audience. If you'd like to be part of the studio audience, you can join the disordered community app, disordered.fm. It's not essential, you can just tune in regardless. But this comment is the yeah, but seems to tap into a type of scru scrupulousness. Yeah, I am seeing this play out in other ways in my life. Kind of an intellectual perfectionism, and it's toxic. What a beautiful comment. Can can I have a round of applause for that?

Drew Linsalata 28:46

Yeah, it's really good. Oh, hell yeah.

Josh Fletcher 28:48

I'm gonna steal that. I like perfectionism. It types into yeah, it's scrupulous and it yes, the overlap with I was chatting about this to a colleague this very morning. Um perfectionism and yeah, but you gotta get it right, you gotta solve, you've got to fix, you've got to do something. That's where the yeah, but and that's a good way to go into the yeah, but will go straight into you've not fixed it. You need to leave something unfinished and unanswered. And for you perfectionists out there, oh, you hate doing that, don't you? Oh, yeah, but you've not solved it. Yeah, but you've not fixed yourself. That's where yeah, but comes in as well. Leave it, leave it unsolved.

Drew Linsalata 29:26

Yeah, or or in perfectionism. When you did the perfectionism webinar that you did on the on the app, that was really great because somebody uh in the live audience said, Well, you know, perfectionism is constantly moving the goalposts. So perfectionism has no positive value because even when you think, okay, it drives me to do a little better, it will always say, Okay, but you could have done even better. It will always move the goalposts. So, like, nope, this is as good as it can be today. That's it. I was as good a person as I could be today. Maybe I failed, maybe I offended somebody, maybe I got something wrong, maybe I missed something. Okay, tomorrow's another day, I guess. Try to do it again tomorrow, right?

Josh Fletcher 30:02

That's like oh how good am I at not answering that question today and leaving it alone? Honestly, it always comes back to leaving it alone. How good am I at leaving this alone the best I can when I am triggered? Yeah, oh, and that's the universal thing. Yeah, but mine's special. No, but mine involves kids and family, and mine involves safety, mine involves health, yeah. But mine involves my job, my career, yeah. But mine has serious consequences. No one has an OCD thing or an anxiety thing where or any anxiety problem where the anxiety leads to serious consequences, whether it's humiliation or whatever, whether it's panic attacks, obtrusive thoughts, or social, there's always serious consequences that the brain will throw at you. And yet, how often does it get it right? Very, very rarely.

Drew Linsalata 30:49

Yeah, but it felt like uh this person says I had an OCD mechan uh OCD theme and kept thinking if I wrote it all out and made it super clear, like proved it wrong, then OCD would shut up. But of course it doesn't work, it will just keep throwing yeah, but the beauty of the yeah but in an anxiety disorder is it's coming from inside you, and your brain can make up anything it wants. Like you have to live according to the laws of physics and reality. Your brain can make up anything it wants. Anything. So, like, no, I can't open, I can't spray my glasses this way to clean them. I have to spray them from the other side, or there could be nuclear war. Like, yeah, I mean that's that's that can't be in the real world, but your OCB brain would potentially suggest that, yeah, but yeah, but you really want to take that chance, just spray from the other side, just do it. Just do it. Why would you take the chance? It can make up anything it wants. It's crazy, right?

Josh Fletcher 31:37

Um, yeah, no, it's very good. Have we got any other did it anyways from uh wonderful listeners?

Drew Linsalata 31:43

We do have an audio did it anyway.

Speaker 1 31:46

Hi, Drew and Josh. Uh, my name is Maddie. I am from Kansas City in the USA. Um, I just wanted to share a big did it anyways with you guys. Um, so I've had OCD for my whole life and um panic disorder and agoraphobia more recently over the last few years. Um, I've been doing better. And last week my boyfriend and I went to uh San Diego, California, 1600 miles away from home, um, despite all of the panic and anxiety that came along with it. Um I, to be completely honest, felt like crap for a pretty decent portion of it because of the panic and anxiety. Um, but thanks to what I've learned from the podcast and in therapy with my OCD specialist, I took all of those uncomfortable thoughts and feelings with me along the journey. Um, I still went and saw pretty much everything that I wanted to see. I cried at the San Diego Zoo. Um, but eventually those feelings passed. Um and I actually got to enjoy a lot of my experience. Um and rather than seeing that as a failure because I felt all the things, um, I'm choosing to see it as a success because I did what I wanted and what I valued, anyways. Um I wanted to give a huge thank you to you guys for continuing to put out all of your free, helpful content. Um, and I hope to have many did it anyways to share with you in the future.

Drew Linsalata 33:16

Smoking.

Josh Fletcher 33:18

Uh what I loved about that, and this is so good. Well done, by the way. Well done. Have a Billy Mays.

Drew Linsalata 33:24

Oh, yeah.

Josh Fletcher 33:25

He's here. Wait.

Speaker 33:26

But I'm not done yet.

Josh Fletcher 33:28

Yeah, there you go. Um, what I loved about that is that you've subverted the yeah butt of today's theme. I got anxious, yeah, but look what I did whilst anxious.

Drew Linsalata 33:39

Oh, oh, it's like grabbing the knife from the dude and stabbing him with it. Like she used yeah butt against the yeah but that is great.

Josh Fletcher 33:47

And that is the challenge to any of you listening. If you are a yeah butter, subvert it, switch around the formula, put it on its head. Yeah. Oh, I got anxious. Yeah, but look what I can do with anxiety. Right. Look what I managed to do despite those intrusive thoughts.

Drew Linsalata 34:04

Yeah, but I had all right to go for it. Yeah, yeah, but yeah, yeah, yeah, but I would I yeah, but I was so anxious doing it. Yeah, but I had thoughts of escaping. Did you escape? Did you run? Yeah, but I had thoughts. Did okay, I bet I had thoughts of escaping, yeah, but I didn't. And I didn't turns out it that was a wrong instruction to follow it.

Josh Fletcher 34:22

So or even at its very core, that's why we do did it anyways, 171 episodes and full of did it anyways. Uh must be in so many, hundreds and hundreds.

Drew Linsalata 34:32

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 34:33

Oh, I got anxious, yeah, but I did it anyway, and that's how you desens it.

Drew Linsalata 34:38

Yeah, very good. Uh another, you know what? Another common yeah, but that I was surprised when I encountered that in my practice is the hypothetical yeah, but so like, oh, I just I got a big win, I did this thing, I felt I should have avoided it, I wanted to stay in the cell. I didn't, I went anyway, I interacted with my family, whatever it happens to be. Like, you know, I I ignored the thoughts, I went about my day, whatever it is. Yeah, but if it was 10 minutes longer, yeah, yeah, but if I had to go, yeah, but if I had to go further, yeah, but if there were two more people, yeah, but if it was louder, yeah, but if it was rainy, yeah, but if the moon was full, like it'll always come up with some hypothetical uh situation that you will will fail. Like, yeah, you did this one, but if it was, yeah, but if it was just a little different, you would have failed.

unknown 35:17

What the hell?

Drew Linsalata 35:18

Like, that is not all right. It's crazy. We will make up hypothetical like challenges and exposures that may never exist and haven't existed and tell you that you failed them. What the yeah, that's insanity when you think about it. But yeah, but we'll do that 100%. Love we love 35 minutes in. What else we got on Yeah, but anything?

Josh Fletcher 35:37

I'm tired of saying Yeah, but to be honest. I think I think the point has been well and truly that's your homework. Spot the Yeah, but use your Yeah, but's into a positive. Um, don't let anxiety weaponize a yeah, but using guilt and your attention. You're not a bad person for turning your back on it, and just look at that's one of anxiety's very persuasive weapons just to get your attention. Yeah, it doesn't need your attention. So it can be in the room, it doesn't need to be centered in the room.

Drew Linsalata 36:13

Process versus content. I'm always gonna come back to that. The content of the yeah, but is irrelevant. Just look at how yeah, but keeps showing up with all different topics and subjects and silly principles and scenarios. Oh, there it is again. There's that's a doubt, it's just a form of doubt and self-criticism. That's it, that's all it is. On right on schedule, not listening to it, not here, not gonna but obey it. Anyway, folks, I like that.

Josh Fletcher 36:35

That's cool. Yeah, um, yeah, we'll catch us next time. Um, you can find it, send in your questions and did it anyways, and voice notes, disorder.fm. Uh, if you want to join the community app, you can do it at Sord.fm. We're running round tables every couple of weeks. The next round table is uh it's called Rumination Station, and it was a suggestion from a member. So I'll be running that next week. Thanks for watching. Um, obviously, if you're listening to this episode years later or whatever, or you found us in a capsule on another planet after we've been obliterated. Uh, you obviously won't join that round table, but it's there anyway. Um all the stuff in the app as well um is available in the resource library should you wish to join it. Um what else? Anything else, Drew?

Drew Linsalata 37:18

Um are episodes of disordered sort of wafting through space in a capsule? They might it could be. I don't know, it's possible. Or are transmissions leaking into the cosmos, maybe.

Josh Fletcher 37:27

I'd like the idea of an alien finding it and they have the same physio physiology.

Drew Linsalata 37:32

Imagine.

Josh Fletcher 37:33

And they've they've managed to work out um teleportation traveling beyond the speed of light, uh, fully sustainable, um kind of living, eco-living, and done all that, but they just quite haven't solved anxiety disorders. And the very last puzzle to a complete and perfect civilization is us is doo doo doo doo doo do it doesn't matter.

Drew Linsalata 38:00

Imagine that's like type three Kardashev like Dyson Spears, they've harnessed the entire energy output of their galaxy, and we become the heroes of that, like a billion years in the future. I'm going with that story. Yeah, but what if we save an entire future advanced civilization?

Josh Fletcher 38:19

Oh, they could stumble across the anxiety guys podcast and declare nuclear war on humans.

Drew Linsalata 38:24

And then the spaceship that we're warping into the atmosphere with the guns blazing. These people that should not be taking up space in the universe, anyway. Oh no, thank you for the alien emoji in the studio audience. All right, guys, we'll be back next week. Thanks for chilling with us.