But HOW Do I Accept Anxiety? (Episode 016)

SPEAKER_01 0:02

But how do I accept anxiety? You just gotta accept the anxiety. But why?

SPEAKER_00 0:08

It feels like trash. You're not okay with it. You don't approve of it, and you don't like it. And I don't think you should have to like it, so it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

I went to the party and I accepted my anxiety was there, but it was still there an hour later. I'm accepting it and it's not working.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Well then you're not accepting it. You're accepting it conditionally. I'll accept so that it goes away, which is not a thing.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Acceptance is like, I'm gonna feel anxious for as long as it takes, and I'm not gonna add secondary fear. Acceptance is also the abandonment of immediacy.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

If we take the idea of acceptance and we take the vagueness out of it and we turn acceptance into an action, what this person actually did was they stopped resisting. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 16 of the podcast, and today we're answering the question: but how do I accept anxiety? Acceptance of anxiety is one of the most misapplied principles in recovery, and that's why we really want to talk about it today. I am Drew Linsolata, co-host of Disordered. I am a therapist and training, a graduate student in clinical mental health counseling in the U.S.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

And I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh on social media, and I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety disorders based in the UK. Good to see you again. It's a popular topic, this isn't it. But how do I accept anxiety?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yeah, I it's a question. You know, Josh and I both have have been podcasting for a while and writing in with reasonably large social media communities. How often do you hear this question? Yeah. Yeah, I I what are your thoughts on it? I don't really like the word accept me either. And it would no listen, for me, the word acceptance in the context of anxiety recovery comes right out of Dr. Claire Weeks, right? So she was my first uh sort of introduction to this sort of thing many, many moons ago, and still absolutely one of my recovery heroes, no doubt about that. Huge respect for her. If there's no Claire Weeks, there's no me. So, but I contend that if she had the benefit of feedback on the internet like you and I have now, she might have stopped using that word or at least introduced alternative words. I don't like accept and flow.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Yeah, same. It's weird because we're both kind of fans of acceptance and commitment therapy. Yep. But again, the word acceptance has never resonated with me as a previous sufferer.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

Um, you just got to accept the anxiety. But why?

SPEAKER_00 2:33

It feels like trash. Maybe it's a function of the language we speak. The word acceptance has such positive connotations that if you're accepting something, somehow you like it or you approve of it, or it becomes like a part of your life that you are okay with, you're not okay with it. You don't approve of it and you don't like it. And I don't think you should have to like it, so it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah. I mean, I was talking to you before we press record, but like that's why when I was reading um, you know, Mike C. Sally Winston stuff, I loved the term willful tolerance because that resonated with me. Oh, I'm practicing a tolerance of something and it's willful, I'm willfully going to go through a scenario where I'm not gonna feel 100%. And yeah, I'd rather the anxiety not be there, but knowing in the long term that if I willfully tolerate this on this uncertainty, I'll get to a better place in the long run. Yeah, when I've first started suffering, you know, you just gotta accept and sit with it. It's another just sit with your anxiety. Like, no, I've been doing a lot of that.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Do nothing but sit with it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:46

And when you say sit with it, and then what? I'm gonna ruminate on it, I'm gonna body scan, I'm gonna play through these catastrophes in my head. Like, what do you mean sit with it? It's very simplistic. Um, as previous sufferers, you know, it's um yeah, that never resonated with me.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Yeah, I I know I am a huge fan of the term willful tolerance. I love how you use that. I didn't know that came from Sally Winston.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

I did not know, I didn't know it comes from uh the book What Every Therapist Needs to Know About Anxiety Disorders. Um, and yeah, I love it. It's one of my you know foundational books into working with anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Yeah, I like um I a couple of years ago I started using the word surrender because surrender is a brutal word, but I kind of want it to be because it's there's no ambiguity in surrender, there's no ambiguity in willful tolerance. There's a lot of ambiguity and acceptance, I think. Maybe that's part of the problem. Yeah, it's vague. Yeah, it is very vague. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

I I think we'll uh let's let's challenge that and make it clearer for people in this episode. Um, I would like to start this episode though in the celebration. We love our did it anyways on here. And if you want to share a win where you've practiced your willful tolerance or surrendering, or you've done an exposure, or you've done something really difficult, you know. We we love our hashtag did it anyways. Uh, and here's one. I'm just gonna throw it in there to uh start this episode on a nice kind of positive tangent. Uh hi Josh and Drew. It appears I'm late to the pie, but I just discovered your hashtag did it anyway stories, and it's almost bringing me to tears seeing everyone's inspiring stories. They are really inspiring to be my therapist recommended you guys, and I'm very glad she did. Today, I'm in the middle of my did it anyway. I've lived with a lot of different anxieties my whole life, but one of my biggest ones for me is being a passenger in a car slash not having control. I used to take Xanax if I had to ride somewhere that was over 20, 30 minutes away. This week my husband and I embarked on our second RV trip together. He drove the whole way and I didn't take any medication. We also went off-roading today on a pretty crazy trail in ATVs. Ah, that's wonderful. I mean, just a disclaimer, you know, if if you're on medication, there's no shame if you need to take that. But for this person, I think they identified that their Xanax was uh a crutch for them uh to avoid panic. Uh yeah, there is a disclaimer there, you know, there's no shame if you're taking medication or that, but I'd just love to celebrate that stuff. I think that's wonderful. This person identified that maybe this is something that was getting in the way, and they managed to kind of expose themselves, not only expose themselves to what was already a difficult exposure, yeah, but also they went off-road ATV.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

That sounds awesome. I'm completely jealous. It's a beautiful day when we're recording today. I would like to be AT off-road ATV today. So well done. That deserves some applause. That's our studio audience.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Hey, studio audience. It's always good to see you.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Yeah, yeah. Um, good job. Good job. Let's talk about let's let's tie that into acceptance. So, what does acceptance look like in that story?

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Acceptance in this story was I mean, I'm not speaking on behalf of this person, but I guess. Um, acceptance in this story was I'm gonna accept that, yeah, I'm without my safety crutches. Um, I and if you've not listened to our episode on getting the credit, um, my aim here in the long term is to get the credit for tolerating uncertainty. And so therefore, I'm going to decide to, you know, allow my husband to drive me a long distance whilst feeling uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

You know, because I'm practicing and teaching my brain and my threat response that I can actually cope with this. You know, I have a phobia of anxiety and I believe that I can't tolerate anxiety past a certain point. However, today I accepted the fact that anxiety might be high, and also challenged the fact that I can't uh tolerate it. And lo and behold, not only did this person manage to accept and tolerate it during a very long road trip, and that's something I can actually resonate with. I used to be like that many years ago, but naturally it kind of fed into well, we might as well just go ATV driving right now. The confidence that came as a result of it as well is so beautiful. That's why I really wanted to read that out today.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

This person accepted that, yeah, I'm gonna be anxious, but also in the long term, I accept that it will pass and I'll get to a good place.

SPEAKER_00 8:41

I love that. I think if we take the, I'll take it a little further. If we take the idea of acceptance and turn it into, and we take the the vagueness out of it or the amorphousness out of it, and we make it concrete, and we put an action to it, and we turn acceptance into an action. What this person actually did was they stopped resisting. So refusing to drive too far is resistance. Having the Xanax or whatever as a as a safety is resistance. Refusing to take it too far is resistance, right? I'm resisting getting what I'm trying to manage it, stop it, prevent it. In acceptance, acceptance happens when we just stop resisting. So find all the ways that this person was resisting it, and then they decided to not do those things and accept the consequences, which is where those lessons of willful tolerance come into play. So yeah, it would be really hard to say, like, oh, well, how did where's acceptance there? Well, it was in the non-resistance and the willingness to let it happen. That's a great description.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

Yeah, yeah. It's like I accept that it that it will be there, and particularly if you're doing exposures. Let's say you're afraid to go to a social event. Well, you're gonna accept the anxiety will be there. Now, some misconceptions and hurdles that you might uh uh come across. Um, I'm gonna draw from my personal experience here. I used to do try and do this acceptance thing where I'd be like, right, uh yeah, I went to the party and I accepted my anxiety was there, but it was still there an hour later. I'm accepting it and it's not working. I'm accepting anxiety behind the wheel of my car. I'm accepting that these intrusive thoughts are horrible, but the anxiety is not going away. It's not working. What would you say to that, Drew?

SPEAKER_00 10:27

I would my standard response to that sort of stuff is it's really hard to reconcile the use of the word acceptance with the with the phrase, and it's still here. Well, then uh you're not accepting it. You're accepting it conditionally, which is I'll accept so that it goes away, which is not a not a thing. Yeah, it sounds like paradoxical. It's very paradoxical. You have to, if you're going to accept that it's there, and that's fine if that's what you want to use. You know, if if acceptance works for you, by the way, is a word, that's that's great. Use it. There's nothing wrong with that. Uh, but if your your acceptance has to be unconditional, I don't accept so that something happens, I just accept it's here.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

We spoke not so long ago about techniquing in one of the episodes. Um, and it's like, well, techniquying is the opposite of kind of accepting, isn't it? It's like don't see acceptance as the technique. Like, oh, I did acceptance last weekend and it didn't work. Well, that's again, it's techniqueifying. Acceptance is like I'm gonna feel anxious for as long as it takes, and I'm not gonna add secondary fear because people with disordered anxiety, no matter what it is, OCD, panic disorder, generalized anxiety, etc. Um, like the rest of the population, they have the primary fear, which is the initial trigger, the whoosh, the adrenaline. I've got anxiety, but then disordered people have the secondary fear on top of that fear. So it's like, okay, not only am I anxious, I'm now anxious about being anxious. Acceptance is accepting that I am gonna feel the primary fear and I don't need to worry about the secondary fear. It was expected. I have an anxiety, so it's okay. That secondary fear will turn off the more I kind of expose myself to this, not use magical items or safety objects or safety behaviors to teach the brain to teach the amygdala. Amygdala is to teach the amygdala, like, listen, you know, this the anxiety itself is not dangerous. But if you're there going, but I s I sat with it and accepted it, and it's still not there, you that kind of attitude in itself is not signaling to the amygdala that the secondary fear is safe.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Yeah, that's not acceptance at all. I I like the word you used in that was expect, and I bet we could tie acceptance. If you want acceptance to be a more useful word for you, tie that to expectation. I accept that it's going to be there. I expect it to be there. They are the same thing when you think about that, as opposed to going into it with your fingers and toes crossed and hoping that you can techniquify enough so that it's not there. And then when it is, everything goes out the window because you're judging based on the fact that you are in fact experiencing that discomfort. So acceptance is I like to talk about the steak in the restaurant analogy. I maybe said this in a previous episode. Acceptance doesn't work like it does in a restaurant. If you order a steak in a restaurant and you order it well done, which you're a savage and I don't know why you would, but okay.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Um if you order it that way, there are things worse than an anxiety disorder. If you order steak well done, yeah, that's ridiculous. That's how you've got more problems than anxiety.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

If your well done steak comes rare, you can say, I don't accept this, and you send it back, and the what then the rare steak goes away. Doesn't work that way with anxiety. I can't accept that. Okay, how can you not accept it because it's still here? So just expect it instead of accepting it. How's that?

SPEAKER_01 14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Oh no. Yeah, stuff against the wall here.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Spitball, maybe. Spitboiling. That's such an American phrase, isn't it? I'm spitboiling here. Spitballing. What's the matter with you? I don't know. So anyway. Um yeah, uh for me personally, um talk about uh I don't know, kind of our personal experiences here. Yeah, it was just when we speak about the inner perfectionist and stuff, yeah. Uh like I'm not good at acceptance. Is something I used to say to myself a lot. I'm not good at acceptance. I don't get it. What about you, Drew?

SPEAKER_00 14:46

I would that's so interesting. I never really thought about that until you said it. For me, I would, and I've written about some of this stuff. Like, I I would always think, well, I gotta find a way to run this over. I'm gonna run this over. I'm gonna bat, I'm gonna slay this dragon. And I would think of it that way. And then wonder like why I wasn't good at acceptance, because you know the the two things don't go hand in hand. So to me, that would lead to I'm impatient, I'm stubborn, I want to run, I want to run it over. None of that is acceptance. So I would get to the same point where like I suck at this, I clearly suck at this. That's the conclusion I reached.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yeah, yeah. I love it when you said about expect. So, like I expect to feel uncertain when I am triggered. Yeah, yeah, I've already expected it. You know, is that gonna change my behavior and my original plans? No, yeah, but I expect to feel uncertain, I expect to have the what ifs and the plethora of uh anxious physical symptoms and sensations and feelings. I expected it, you know, and this is why we love the did it anyway. It's like yeah, do it anyway, teach the brain. Have you noticed that people that do more and more of these did it anyway, and we'd love to hear them by the way, please send them in to disorder.fm because we do read them all and we do listen to the to the voice now. Um but yeah, just when you realize actually yeah, I expected to be anxious at that concert. I expected to do all that. That's why I did it. And I guarantee you, you do that without the kind of um safety behaviors or micro avoidances, then that's the kind of way that you start to get more confident. And when you get more confident, the anxiety gets less. Because, you know, overall, I've kind of accepted that, yeah, this is a disorder problem at the moment, but I know in the long term it's worth it.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

So maybe maybe acceptance is useful in a in a as a way to conceptualize, right? So if I'm practicing acceptance in the context of anxiety, I expect it. I know it's going to be there. I don't pray that it isn't and hope that it isn't magically, because only I can control that with my actions over the long run. So I accept that it's there. And but acceptance is not an action. Acceptance might be a concept that then allows you to take these different actions. And if you're going to look for, if there are techniques, and of course there are certain techniques that we all use, that's true, but you don't. So it's acceptance is not one of those techniques. It's a concept that lets you get to the techniques, the non-the non-resistant techniques, the tolerance techniques, the relaxation techniques, the breathing techniques, whatever you're gonna use, whatever we use, you know, as as our navigational things are predicated on the fact that you accept it's here and it's going. And and also I think there's an acceptance of, oh, I have to trigger myself. That's acceptance. Yeah, I'm accepting that this is the path through, not like, yeah, okay, I know I got to do exposures, but I'm really hoping that I learn to do them without panicking or without being anxious or without being triggered. The acceptance, good application of acceptance there is, oh, I I understand. Oh, you mean I have to actually do it scared? Yes, you must accept that you have to do it scared, then go to the techniques of doing it scared.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Yeah. So put acceptance way in the front of the process. Maybe that's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Acceptance is also the abandonment of immediacy. I find that's really good.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

That's oh yeah, that sounded pretty good, didn't it? That's going in the in the in the intro for sure.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Yeah, oh that'll be good. Um, yeah, acceptance is the abandonment of immediacy, where if things don't go to plan and you don't feel like you want to, or you feel something that goes beyond what you feel is comfortable. Acceptance is like I don't need to immediately do anything here. I expected to feel uncertain and doubtful whether it was a thought that triggered me or whether it was a situation. And I just accept that, yeah, I'm gonna feel like I want to do something immediately, but I don't have to because I've accepted that that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Yeah. Um, I that's so good. Uh, we could tie that into also patience. We can think that might be the best thing I've ever said. That was really good. Top 10 in for from where I said anyway. You know, acceptance is also accepting of the time frame of recovery, like it it just is what it is. I understand. I'm listening I'm impatient. There's no doubt. I'm more, you know what? Recovery taught me more patience than I ever had in my life, but I'm still an impatient guy by nature. And like you can't, it's that thing where like you're you're you can use acceptance to help you avoid negative, harsh judgment. I'm not recovered yet. It's not going as fast as I want. Like, I'm not doing it right. Like, no, no, no. Just accept what that the process is what it is, ups and downs, bumps and turns, and you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

You're quoting Craig the Critic there.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

I am going, because you know it's Craig the Critic. Yes, but he pops in all the time, and then he shows itself himself in impatience and hard work. He won he wants immediate results. 100%. You did one exposure and you're not recovered yet. You're failure. You're the worst. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:57

He's the he doesn't like acceptance either.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

He's like, why haven't you why haven't you made acceptance as a technique yet?

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

You know, you should be further along now.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

It's funny because I talked to somebody yesterday who you know was struggling in one particular context, working on it and doing great, but you know, but I've I did that. I've already, you know, I struggled there today. What I don't understand because I've done it several times. And so my answer, my question was, well, tell me several times and over what time frame. Oh, last time was about six months ago. You know, I did it three times in the last year. I'm like, give yourself a break three times in the last year. That's not a lot of practice. Oh, yeah. So that was Craig the Critic ringing in with like, you did it twice in a year, you should be able to just do it automatically every time now. Told you that. It's not fair.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Acceptance isn't repeating something over and over again and hoping that it goes away. Uh, I'll use a personal example here, and we are talking a bit more, and we'll do a separate episode on this, but I often get asked by clients or people on my course or whatever, you know, uh, you must get it in your Facebook group and stuff. It's but isn't that just distraction? That's something I hear quite a lot, and we can do a whole episode on that. For me, there's a difference between I believe that distraction is actually really cool when used correctly, because you can accept and distract. Like I accept that my threat response wants all of my attention, it wants me to ruminate, it wants me to sit there and do safety behaviors and seek reassurance. Here's a scenario that I say to demonstrate acceptance, uh, but abandoning that immediacy. So for me, when I used to get anxious, I used to be like, oh my god, I get really anxious. So I'm gonna run and boot up my PlayStation and play the PlayStation and just distract myself. To make it go away. And then I'd be checking and compulsively checking and see if it's gone and you know, has this worked yet? You know, I'm doing this. And and and that level that kind of distraction isn't good. It's compulsive. It's teaching the brain that actually, you know, this isn't helpful. But the difference between that is that I did exactly the same thing with acceptance and willful tolerance or whatever. Where, oh, I've noticed I'm anxious now, and I've noticed that my brain wants to compulsively ruminate, seek reassurance, Google, whatever, or just basically scan and give attention to the uncomfortable feelings. So I consciously said to myself, Well, I've been triggered now. So this adrenaline and cortisol's pumping, what can I do better with my attention? Well, I'm not really doing anything at the moment. I'll load up my PlayStation and play some games whilst feeling anxious. Am I rushing to the PlayStation, you know, doing a uh uh you know an army roll, pressing it in there and like, yeah, boot it up and distract. No, but it is a form of distraction because I'm not sitting with it. I'm like, I'm just not giving it my attention. I'm showing it that I can calmly, not frantically, give my attention to something else. I've accepted that my anxiety's kicked off, but I'm gonna give my focus to something that non-anxious me would do.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Yeah, it's really good. I I think distraction is probably a function of urgency, like you said, yeah, you know, accepting the dropping that that urgency or that immediacy. So if you're doing something urgently, you're probably trying to distract and make it go away. If you're doing something intentionally, then and you're just choosing to put your attention somewhere else. That's not necessarily distraction. I mean, it I guess it is, but you know, and that's for acceptance. That's a reflection of acceptance, then. If you could do it that way, the second way, you're accepting.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

Yeah, I've accepted with no immediacy. Am I enjoying it? No, no, of course I'm not. And again, Craig Craig will come in and go, Oh, yeah, you're you're playing your PlayStation, but you're not enjoying it. You should be enjoying this. This is your favorite game. Like, no, I accept that I'm not gonna enjoy it as much as if I was calm.

SPEAKER_00 24:12

Yeah, I'm not doing it to enjoy it or make it go away or to create a particular state, I'm doing it to teach myself a lesson.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Like, uh, and and some of me still does enjoy it when I'm anxious. I just don't enjoy it as much as I would do if I was calm, and that's okay. I'm not gonna then see that as a problem. I accept that, and that's a big one. I accept that I'm gonna have to do stuff not in an ideal way. Yeah, so if you've been avoiding putting stuff off or whatever, you just you gotta accept that yes, in the short term, you're not gonna enjoy it. So if it's a restaurant, if it's go to a party, go to a work meeting, whatever. Accept that actually you're gonna do it anxious and accept that it's not gonna go perfectly. It's not gonna go as bad as you think either. Yeah. But willing to do that, and then the better times will come.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Notice how none of this involves steps. Like there's a lot of acceptance in what Josh is talking about, but none of them are here's what I did to accept. Acceptance is actually more of a reflection of the way he actually did what he's talking about, right? So acceptance is not steps. That's that whole, like, but you know, the title of the episode. But how do I accept anxiety is usually that like, give me the steps. What do I do to do acceptance? Well, it's more about what you don't do, and that it will reflect an attitude of acceptance. I think the other thing, this is where it gets super mad, and now we'll just start to reference acceptance upon acceptance. But, you know, accept that it's gonna be there. Like in your video game example was really great. Like, accept that I'm gonna be uncomfortable and probably maybe get, you know, pulled away from the game a little bit and get emotional. I'm gonna be afraid and I'm not gonna enjoy it the way I think I'm supposed to, that Craig the Critic says I should. But Craig the Critic is also gonna be critical that I'm not enjoying my video game and I'm not also, and that I'm anxious, so there's no way to win with that negative self-judgment. No matter what you do, you're losing somehow. Because if you do start to feel better, then he's gonna say, Well, you're just distracting, you're running from it, you're not doing recovery right. So it's always find a way. So now you accept the fact that you're going to have some negative self-judgment. Oh, I'm sorry, I should have muted that and I didn't. A very loud notification sound. Um, I didn't hear it. Yeah, on my side, I don't know why I did that, but uh sorry guys. Uh, but I think so.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

We're accepting I accept that you yeah, I accept that I absolutely botched that up, Drew.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

I ruined everything. It was a good moment, too. But so then there's the acceptance that okay, it's gonna feel this way, I'm gonna have these problems. And I also know and I expect that I will probably negatively judge myself because this is my habit, and I'm learning to work through that too. Because people will often counter with like, but I still but I still judge it. How do you stop judging it? You don't, you'll keep judging it until you stop engaging with the judgment. Same thing, but very, very bad.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

That's bang on. Yeah, no, that's asked it except the package that comes with things out.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

It's a whole boat, you gotta take the whole boat or nothing.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

It's gonna be death, it's gonna be uncertainty, it's gonna be Craig the Craig, it's gonna be and they're all gonna come along at the like the world's worst entourage, you know, and it's just like just whatever, you're all part of one entourage. I'm just gonna ignore you, you know. Um, accept that you'll shout it there, but whatever. Um any good analogies. I like the analogy of um I use this quite a bit. I stole off a client years ago. They're like, um, you know what, Josh? I kind of like do accept anxiety now. So when I go on a road trip, anxiety comes with me, but they don't sit up front and mess around with the dials and tell us what to listen to, and they don't mess around with the volume or mess around with the windows, they just sit in the back and they're allowed to. You can sit in the back of the car and come with me, but you ain't riding up front dictating which way I'm going, because that's up to me. And I was like, I love that. You know, and I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna plagiarize it and claim it as my own analogy.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Hopefully, this person is not listening to disorder. I don't think they are, I don't think they are now. You know what? Hopefully they don't have to. That would be the best thing if they don't have to listen to this podcast, right? Exactly, exactly. There's the rain analogy that I see that one a lot, which is pretty good too. Like, acceptance is not trying to stop the rain, it's bringing an umbrella or rain boots or just getting wet. You know, like it's raining, nothing I can do about that. Uh, what can I do to what can I do to navigate through this rain in a in an effective and healthy way? Is it gonna rain forever?

SPEAKER_01 28:26

No, no, unless you live in Manchester.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

In which case it's raining all the damn time. Actually, it's been very nice.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

It's been very nice this week, yeah. It's been lovely. Um yeah, accepting that I mean it again, we we reiterate, you don't have to use it. I don't really use the word acceptance in this room, but it is a word that floats around in the anxious community and stuff like that, and on the wellness sphere and social media a lot. It's not something you have to master a pathetic. I just you you're probably doing it a lot in your life already, unknowingly. Yeah, you know. Um, so it's not a thing that you're oh, I have to master this acceptance stuff. In fact, and with people with obsessive and compulsive tendencies, it can actually sometimes become a theme, a point of obsession. Like, have I nailed acceptance? Yeah, and and again, that's when I just say, abandon shit, man. Like just can we just delete that word in this room and we're gonna go back to kind of the attitude of tolerance, you know, how good would how good were you at that today? And that's why I always come back to it. Um, but yeah, in general, just it's not as big and shiny and sparkly of a word that that you may or or think it is.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Yeah, and it doesn't mean you have to like it, it does to throw away all of those things. Yeah, I'm gonna go back to my non-resistant thing. I did the post on Instagram yesterday, and I guess that's on my mind now. But like if you're struggling with how to implement uh acceptance, just try not resisting so much. Because that's a thing you can you can do behaviorally, like change what you do, and you may find suddenly like holy crap, I'm actually accepting. Who knew? I didn't know that was gonna happen, but it does. So change what you do first. Um, and kind of go from there. But do not confuse accepting with welcoming, liking, approving of. And accepting also doesn't mean for those of us that get stuck in catastrophic thoughts, if I accept it, that means forever. It means it just never goes away. I have to accept that I'm gonna feel like this forever. No, no, we never said that. But acceptance is a word that I'm glad you said that.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

That's what I get. Well, I just gotta accept anxiety is there forever.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Are you crazy, man? Like I get that all the time. This is terrible advice. I just have to live like this for the rest of my life. No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

No, but actually the brain heard, but but interestingly, kind of, and again, that's a little bit of an attitudinal shift. It's kind of yeah, like in the next hour or two or whatever, or today I might be anxious. Yeah. And because you're signaling to the brain, don't get me wrong, no, you're not gonna have anxiety forever. Well, we will, we all have anxiety, it's a very complete part of our brain. But that secondary fear we're talking about, no, that won't be there forever. But when you adopt the attitude of, well, fine, I'll have first fear and secondary fear. I don't care, bring it on. Yeah, then the brain's oh, this person isn't afraid of this secondary fear anymore. Fine, well, the immigrant will just turn it off then.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

Yeah, that that is that's true. Do I have to accept that it's gonna feel like this forever? No, but you have to accept that you are actually capable, even if it did, last forever. Yeah, which is uh it's very paradoxical.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

I get that, but well, we can cover that in an episode on setback. Yeah, there's a lot. I had a setback, I had a relapse on our list. Yeah, can we put that on our list now? Yeah, I mean, I mean, we already know what our list is, uh um audience. Um, it's a very professional, well planned out um podcast.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

So random. If you if you were on our calls before we hit record, you if you only knew. Yeah, but they're good anyway. These are good episodes. Um, we put we put that stuff in that first thing.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

Do we have any questions? Questions? Yeah, let's get some questions.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

We have a question from the audience. I will um again, you can go to disordered.fm and you can send us an email question, or you can hit the little blue button and record as voicemail. And by the way, if you record voicemail, it's see you try and keep it under about a minute and a half, a minute or so. Get right to your question because it seems that there's a technical thing. Anyway, so this person went to our website at disorder.fn and sent a question. Um, hi, I started my recovery about two months ago. Excellent. Brave steps, more power to you. And I still have trouble with, and this is great because they put air quotes, trying to control, which is a huge the fact that they use quotes is a huge win for me, for them. Um, I still have trouble with trying to control my breathing and DPDR. It seems to be the hardest part for me. I am a queen at breath holding and also white knuckling. I try my best not to. Can y'all can y'all give me some advice on that?

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Yeah. Um I as a member of the disordered anxiety crew, um, I spent a long time compulsively trying to control my breathing. Because there's a lot of stuff out there about breath work and regulating breathing, and how the breathing mechanics are the sole um kind of pumping station of our beings and all that. Like, yeah, breathing is part of your involuntary nervous system. You can't stop breathing if you tried, you're not controlling it when you're asleep. You can have some input on it, and if it's great for stress, if you're stressed, I will go and do some nice breaths and and kind of do that. That's okay for stress. Take a deep breath and all that. When you're anxious, when you're in that disordered state, abandon that. Because you're not gonna stop breathing. And if you do hold your breath, I would guess that's a symptom of stress, and you deal with the sources of stress. What doesn't help is when you start to apply perfectionism to this whole wave fad, dare I say it, of we must control the breath. No, that can become really compulsive for our community. It's like, no, like people who have the symptom of air hunger, they would drive them insane. And it sounds a bit like like what you're what you're kind of doing. Like, you're you're almost applying perfection. Like, I need to breathe a certain way, I can't, I'm focused on my breath to the point where on one end of the scale it can become like somatic OCD, where you just I used to spend weeks just obsessing my breath. Am I breathing right? No, it's like leave it alone, your body will breathe on its own. There's more productive to identify the sources of stress in your life, including this trying to perfect your breathing, that's a source of stress. Um, and it doesn't surprise me that you're getting DPTR. And if you don't know what that is, it's derealization, depersonalization, because dptr is a symptom of stress. So you're in a stress cycle where the DPTR and the and the stress breathing are just keeping you in a cycle of stress. And I think that's, I mean, it makes sense to me without knowing more. But yeah, great question.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

I hope that helped. Yeah, it's a very common question. The breathing thing. You know, I made a mess of my breathing. I'm trying to control my breathing. One of the, if you want to go like down the exposure out a little bit, and this can't be a shield or tech, don't techniquify this. But one of the things that I discovered, which was so interesting, is when I felt like I'm not I wasn't getting enough breath, which was all the time, all the damn time, I was worried that I wasn't getting enough breath. What I discovered is, oh, I'm having it like a sensation at the base of my throat. That was for me. And I don't like this sensation, this constricted sensation. So I'm going to try, I will interpret that as I'm not getting enough air, and then I will try to control my breathing. So I had to do the old like, oh, I just don't like that feeling at the base of my neck, or I don't like feeling that my chest is a little tight. And so I'm trying to fix it.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

And and the fix, the fix is the if I can just get air to my lower bronchioles and my lungs, yeah, I can leave it alone.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

To hear, like I was literally trying to fill my, you can't see me on video because it's not a video podcast, but I would try to fill my lungs all the way up to my chin. And like that would fix it. No, it made it way worse. And the other thing that I did on an exposure standpoint that helped me and take it for what it's worth if it fits your context. But when I was sure that I wasn't getting enough breath and I I needed to control my breathing, I learned as I get further down recovery, like, well, that would be a good time for me to go to the gym. I'm going to the gym today anyway. Or I'm going to ride my bike today anyway. I'm going to exercise today. Let's do it now. And when I made my body work hard, oh, it took over the breathing. I didn't have a say. So that taught me so much. So much.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

It's not unless you've got a breathing condition, you know, where you have to have intervention, like asthma, CFP and stuff. Right, right. Um, yeah, and in CBT, there's called interoceptive exposures. And with my clients, I'd be like, right, we're going on the treadmill, walking up a hill whilst anxious. Well, I want to sprint while I'm anxious. Yeah, your breathing's gonna be all over the place, but watch your body because it will regulate itself, it's very powerful. You don't need to get involved. This is why I hate this kind of culture of you know regulating nervous systems and all that stuff. And I'm like, it's wishy-washy, you're not backed up with sound empirical evidence. Um, and it also plays into the compulsion of trying to control things to give you that illusion and sense of control over stuff that you don't need to. You don't have to have that. We'll rant about that on another podcast, though.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

We certainly will. And the same, I you uh she also asked about DPDR, but the same applies. Like you're gonna have to just let it be there. Trying to control it. I'm trying to control. We're gonna do it a whole episode on DPDR because it's so popular, but um oh yeah, DPDR, we'll we'll do that. Yeah, you just I I gotta control it. I have to make it go away, I have to make it feel less. No, you just have to let it be there. I know the same rules always apply and they're annoying to hear, but it's true.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

So I was on I was on Jen Kirkman's podcast talking about that. The three D's derealization, dissociation, depersonalization and stuff. And um, it'd be nice to revisit that kind of um topic. Um, so Drew, to to wrap up. Yeah, but how do I accept anxiety?

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Just stop fighting it. Don't worry about whether you're doing it right, just stop fighting it, and like you'll get to acceptance accidentally. That's my short answer.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

I love that. Thanks, thanks, Drew, and I'll catch you next time. Thank you for tuning in. If you want to follow us on social media, I'm anxietyjosh, Drew is the dot anxious.truth. And uh look out for uh I think we're sorting out a disordered podcast TikTok profile where we'll have a good laugh on that as well.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

It's gonna be good. If we go to disorder.f and we have we'll have there's i I didn't remember that we did this. There's about the host, so you'll see Josh and I both on there, our social media links are there. I know. We're looking dapper as always. Those guys have definitely got a face for radio. This is why there's no video in this podcast. So anyway, thanks guys. I'll be back in a second to wrap it up as usual, and we'll see you in the next episode. See you later. We're out. Hey, it's Drew. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Disordered. Josh and I both hope that you're finding it helpful in some way. For more information about Josh or me or the Disordered Podcast, find us on the web at disordered.fm. That's disordered.fm. Hop on over and find links to our social media platforms, join our mailing list so we can let you know when new podcast episodes are available, and we'll send you easy ways to ask us questions and share your wins so we can answer questions on the air and share your successes with the community. And if you're listening to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any platform that lets you rate a review, do us a favor and leave us a five-star rating and maybe write a review if you're digging disordered. It really helps us out and we appreciate that. Thanks again for coming by, and we'll see you in the next episode.