Courage When Anxiety Feels Really Bad (Episode 178)

Josh Fletcher 0:01

But it feels so bad. And we just want to talk about that. Particularly if it applies to you today, like, yeah, it does feel really bad climbing in and getting that courage. Because when it feels bad, that's when you can take back the power and rewire your brain.

Drew Linsalata 0:16

Yeah, but how are you supposed to do that when it feels so horrible, when it feels so dreadful, when it feels so intense? Well, but if I can just feel less scared, or I could it will, I could just make it feel a little easier, then I can do the willful tolerance. But like, no, no, no, you gotta do the willful tolerance while it feels that way, which means you really have to be brave. We forget that people who are brave are terrified. Brave is I'm really scared, but I'm gonna roll the dice because it's really important, it's valuable to me to do this thing anyway, for whatever the reason happens to be. You have to be anxious, otherwise, it's there's no rewriting of the blueprint.

Josh Fletcher 0:53

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 178, entitled Courage When It Feels So Bad. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist based in Manchester in the UK. I specialize in anxiety, anxiety disorders, of uh having been a previous sufferer uh for many years, and um yeah, I like to bestow some evidence-based, uh both professional and personal knowledge, to help people get to a good place. And I don't do that alone.

Drew Linsalata 1:26

I am joined by my esteemed co-host. That would be me, the other half of disordered. I'm Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist practicing in New York that specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I stumbled through these things myself for many years: anxiety disorders, OCD, depression, uh, better now, an author, co-author with Josh, Disordered Guide to Health Anxiety, podcaster. We're gonna spend an hour or so. Actually, we only spent about 40 minutes, but it uh we messed around for much longer than that. And we're today, we're gonna talk about courage and the need for courage when it feels so terrible because I think it's a part that sometimes we don't talk about enough. But before we get into that, how about we do a did it anyway? Because we had none in the last episode because we had an esteemed guest. So what do you think? Yeah, let's go for it. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 2:08

Hey Drew and Josh. I wanted to submit my first Did It Anyway. I got married this past weekend, and over the past year I've struggled with panic disorder that started to look like social anxiety, but not because I'm afraid of socializing, more so because I'm afraid of how I might feel around other people and in front of them. So, as you can imagine, that made the idea of my wedding day pretty nerve-wracking. But I didn't have any drinks. I even had some asne to prescribed medications that I could have taken, but I chose not to because I told myself that feeling anxious on my wedding day is actually quite normal. And having any adrenaline or heart pounding sensations is not a disordered thing, it's an excited thing. So I let my body feel how it was going to feel, focused on just experiencing my wedding day and whatever came along with it. And it turns out I spent months predicting how I was going to feel, and all my predictions were wrong, anyways. I actually felt the least anxious I felt in a long time. And I think a big reason for that is with so much going on, so many things captivating my attention, I didn't even have a chance to compulse inward and do the inward checking. So the number one event that I thought would bring backsliding actually reminded me how much our attention focus directly affects anxiety. Yurl's podcast is so unbelievably helpful. Please keep doing what you're doing. And as a fellow therapist, I cannot recommend Y'all's work enough.

Josh Fletcher 3:25

Love that. And uh taken on all the principles. Congratulations on getting married. I love that that it's my wedding day and all feelings can come with me. Oh, well done. I hope you hope you had a splendid day.

Drew Linsalata 3:44

Absolutely. Talk about values, right? Like, I'm nope. I'm gonna pay attention to my wedding. My actual wedding.

Josh Fletcher 3:50

It was compassionate, it was courageous, and for anyone here, the biggest takeaway of that is I've spent months, my anxious brain, predicting what it was gonna be like, but in this situation, it doesn't turn out that way, does it?

Drew Linsalata 4:04

Yeah, and you know, the the one of the lessons you gotta take out of that is well, that was a waste of time. That was pointless. I'm trying to try to predict how I'm gonna feel and figure out what I'm gonna do, or just go and do the thing.

Josh Fletcher 4:16

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. We got someone in the studio audience today. If you want to be part of the studio audience, you can do that as part of the community app. It's all included, along with workshops, stuff like that. Someone says today, I have to find the courage and bravery of my upcoming gallbladder surgery. Uh, my anxiety and behaviors have been, you know, through the roof for the past five days. But it's interesting. So when you do have the surgery, you know, come back and tell us how accurate the anxiety predicted, and you know, how accurate was the outcome. Um, and um, yeah, it's always it's it's really bad at predicting, isn't it?

Drew Linsalata 4:50

It's awful, it is really terrible. So you should never place bets on what anxiety tells you because you lose everything.

Josh Fletcher 4:55

I'm not my lottery numbers will not be dictated by anxiety. Um, no, uh excellent, excellent. So courage when it feels bad, but it feels so bad. We hear that quite a lot as therapists in the community over the years, you know, doing uh posting on social media uh under Anxiety Josh and the Anxious Truth, doing all these things. And one of the most common things we hear after we encourage people, you know, willful tolerance, don't do your compulsions, go and do what non-anxious you would do, etc. etc. Um one of the biggest kind of feedback things we get back is yeah, but it feels so bad. But it feels so bad. And we just want to talk about that, particularly if it applies to you today. Like, yeah, it does feel really bad. Uh, I've ended up in A and E with panic attacks. Did have you, Drew? Oh, sure. I've been there. Yeah. I've run away home from holidays, I've cancelled, I they've ruined anxiety's ruined meals, yeah. Uh it's ruined parties. Then the Craig the critic would come in and be like, You should do better, you're not living life to the max, etc. It's just, yeah, it feels really bad, you know. But these people like, but it feels so bad. Yeah, it does. And we all sit there with you and we all simulate, but today it's about climber like climbing in and getting that courage because when it feels bad, that's when you can take back your power and rewire your brain.

Drew Linsalata 6:20

Yeah. I I think it's the and I don't think anybody's ever been difficult, by the way. So when we hear like uh, you know, yeah, we'll talk about willful tolerance and acceptance and surrender and all that stuff, and people say, Yeah, but yeah, but how do? You know, it always starts with yeah, but yeah, but how are you supposed to do that when it feels so horrible and it feels so dreadful dreadful, when it feels so intense? And I think the part we sometimes forget is oh uh uh yeah, I know. Like I have to take a courageous leap of faith here. Uh-huh. There is a need to be courageous there. And I and I think we I I always try to uh bring it back to that because if we forget that, uh we run the risk of trying to figure out well, but if I can just feel less scared, or I could it will I could just make it feel a little easier, then I can do the willful tolerance. But like, no, no, no, you gotta do the willful tolerance while it feels that way, which means you really have to be brave. And many people think that they're not. They they will insist, well, I'm not brave. Or like they they people will say to me all the time, because I'm just kind of a walking stereotype sometimes, well, I'm clearly not as strong and tough as you, you know. No, I'm like, no, that's not true. I'm not any tougher than anybody else, right?

Josh Fletcher 7:24

So uh yeah, and it's usually people with the the loud internal critics they've not had a lot of begging up, they've not had a lot of nurturing, and then they believe in the negative illusion that they're not capable. You remember? And I always say it's my cheese sandwich that I share with everyone, you know, you part of getting better is learning that you're the coping technique. And for a lot of people that don't have a lot of big belief in themselves, it's kind of a double whammy because you're going toe-to-toe with both the exposure, the symptoms, the what-ifs, and the scariness you don't like, and uh attempting to leave them alone and do what non-anxious you would do, but you're also going toe-to-toe with Craig the Critic, you know, and Craig the Critic is like the wizard of ours. He gives it all that, it gives all the big and I know you're I'll put you down, I'm the authority. And when you go and do like an exposure or you do exposure response prevention, so you've got OCD intrusive thoughts, and you're like leaning into not doing those compulsions, you're doing it a courageous thing, regardless whether you're attempting, even thinking about doing it is courageous. And what you're gonna know is that if you've got an inner critic that's telling you you're not being courageous, that is the Wizard of Oz. And if you've seen the Wizard of Oz, you know you get there, you walk into the building, this big scary giant face screaming at you, and then you just walk off to the left, and actually, it's just a little weird man behind a curtain screaming into a microphone, a bit like Drew, and it's okay. You beat me. Like, who was gonna get to that first? I'm like, I've got to get there before I do.

Drew Linsalata 8:56

I knew it.

Josh Fletcher 8:57

Yeah, and that's it, and you go into a store, and and you will show that you're courageous. And who was the cut who was the the lion and was I'm gonna keep using and milking this wizard of ours reference. I've had it, but you know, the the lion found out, didn't he? He takes the yellow brick road to get there because he finds he feels like I was at Tin Man. Someone needs a heart, basically. I think courage. Yeah, and then that the whole point of getting to the Wizard of Oz is to discover that they all had it the whole time. Yeah. You know, and that's the same. You go in a you're off to see the wizard, the wonderful wizard of exposure response prevention therapy.

Drew Linsalata 9:33

That's a whole different movie. That wouldn't that would do very poorly at the box office. And we're probably gonna get like we're gonna get demonetized. Like whoever owns the Wizard of Oz will now claim this episode. All advertising revenue associated with it. Somebody in the studio audience just asks, you have to be scared first before you can be brave, right? And I love this question because I I suspect sometimes, while I'm not brave or I'm weak, or I'm I'm not as tough as that. Sometimes I think it's we forget that people who are brave are terrified. Like you know, brave is I'm really scared, but I'm gonna roll the dice, the pentamillion gun, if you will, because it's really important, it's valuable to me to do this thing anyway, for whatever the reason happens to be. So like it's not being fearless. That's another thing. I think people tend to look at the word we have to be fearless. Or like feel the fear and do it anyway. Yeah, but I really don't want to f I I want to say that, but I actually don't want to feel the fear. So yeah, there's value in I was so scared, but I did it even though I was so scared. And what we learn in this context is incredibly valuable, which is that fear and danger are are not always the same. If if your house is on fire, then fear and danger is the same or or are linked. Uh but an anxiety disorder, the problem is that fear and danger get inextricably linked. You can't separate them, but they're not supposed to be linked. That's that's the disorder. That's the that's the wrong part. There's fear without a threat. So yeah, we need the fear. We need it activated. We say that all the time, right? You you have to be afraid, you have to be anxious, otherwise there's no rewriting of the of the blueprint.

Josh Fletcher 11:07

Someone in the audience says, I feel like I'm failing at being brave because I literally always cry when I'm being brave. So in my mind, it doesn't count. What would you say to that? Nonsense.

Drew Linsalata 11:20

Like you know, that's just absolutely yeah, that's crazy because I'm crying, and but I I some of it might be because it's cultural or so or you know, the way we're all socialized and the images we see on in our popular culture. Like, well, uh, somebody crying isn't being brave. What how why is that? I don't understand why crying and bravery are mutually exclusive. How could that be? Yeah, yeah.

Josh Fletcher 11:42

Quit those tears, boy. They'll get my switch out. That's kind of that emotional conservatism, isn't it? Yeah, a little bit.

Drew Linsalata 11:48

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 11:49

Yeah. Like bravery. I said uh sorry.

Drew Linsalata 11:52

No, as if bravery can only be standing stoically and swinging your sword at the dragon. Like, I'm sure there were a lot of very brave people who wet themselves, pooped themselves, cried on the battlefield. Like, yeah, like that's that's what happens.

Josh Fletcher 12:06

I've done it. I some of the scariest moments of my life I've cried through. I don't I don't care. Sure. You know, it's it's not you know, not being reprised. I've I said it on a very earlier episode, didn't I? Where like that emotional conservatism where um people aren't brave enough to show their vulnerabilities. So actually showing your vulnerability is a brave thing. But through introjected life lessons and conditioning from others, we you know, we kind of introject this belief that you know hiding your emotions makes you brave. Um, no, I remember being at my grandma's funeral and my uncle leaning over and going, Don't don't cry, be brave for your grandma. And I'm like, I wish at the time I'd have had the retour and the wit to say, well, that's interesting because, like, why would my grandma see me not crying as being brave? Actually, my crying makes you uncomfortable. You're not brave enough to show your tears at a conventionally sad event. You've just lost your mother. You know, why wouldn't you cry? It's a literal healthy thing designed in your body and your brain to help you. And I hate this word, but you know, kind of regulate and process emotions. That's what it's there for. I feel good after a good cry. Um, and that's absolutely fine. But yeah, you could that's still courageous. I'm glad you shared that because yeah, this episode is about courage, even when it feels rubbish. Well, yeah, you can.

Drew Linsalata 13:33

It's all right. I I would say that the the presence of tears or whatever it is, tears, maybe your voice is cracking, maybe you're shaking a little bit. Like that's normal when we're scared. Like this happens to humans. And in our community, whether it's you know on the average of the community at large, part of what we talk about all the time. We have to we have to accept the fact that all states are allowed, all emotions are welcome. And sometimes the brave part is just allowing yourself to feel fear and let the tears flow and let the shaking happen. Like, yeah, that's allowed too. That's part of being human sometimes when you're really scared. But like, no, no, no.

Josh Fletcher 14:07

Hiding emotions is avoidance a lot of the time. Yes, well done. I think so in many instances. Um, let's let's look at some more literal examples then. So being courageous when the symptoms are so bad, my DPTR is so bad, my heart palpitation is so bad, it feels like something awful is gonna happen, I feel like I'm gonna go crazy, faint, etc., etc. What does courage look like then, Drew?

Drew Linsalata 14:32

Um, I I think, excuse me, I think courage starts. I could use the cough button, but I didn't. Um, I think in those situations, courage looks like this is weird, but courage looks like softening. Like I think a lot of times courage, people feel like courage is like stealing or like bracing. Like I gotta brace and push through this. I think that's right. In a way, it it's Highlander, it's Braveheart, it's all of the like this is oh, we steal ourselves and we push through. Or not really. We I think for me, I had to learn that courage was literally surrendering. Like if you think of it as an enemy, I have to let this enemy go over the walls and ransack the city and go out the back gate. Like and that is so scary. So uh because you want to fight it. To me, in our context, courage is put down the sword, like surrender. Stop fighting, and that is the scariest thing because you feel like you are protecting yourself. But you're not. There's nothing to protect yourself from, a feeling.

Josh Fletcher 15:35

So someone says Claire Weeks said stag towards the feelings of Shark of B. Stag. Yeah.

Drew Linsalata 15:43

I mean, I just think you know, and one of the things I love about this is there are no sag onto there are no steps. People love, but but how? And I know you might be listening, but how do you be brave? There are legitimately no steps to being brave. We cannot give you instructions of being brave, but you know, Claire Weeks said stag, and for some people that will ring a bell. Uh, I used to have one of the admins in my old Facebook group used to say ragdoll, and that rang a bell for a lot of people. For me, the word surrender rings a bell. Yeah. So, like, whatever words work for you, like it's okay. But I think it's a softening. It's it's not fighting, it's not fighting harder. That's not the bravery in what we do, it's fighting less, which is scary because then it feels like, oh no, it's gonna happen, then it's gonna happen. I will go crazy. No, that's that's what you gotta learn.

Josh Fletcher 16:25

Yeah, and remember the moment you are anxious and it does feel horrible. Uh uh, you know, courage looks like no, this is where the homework starts now. Yeah, but if you're immediately starting off with, oh no, I'm getting anxious and I'm feeling overwhelmed, so I'm failing. You you you're not framing it right. The moment you're anxious and you feel that's the moment where you're practicing. Yeah, don't start checking and compulsing and be like, is it gone yet? Have I techniqued sagging? Right. Look at looking at me in the mirror this morning. I've definitely technique sagging. You're nailing it for sure. Yeah, I need some vitamins. Uh but in general, no. Have I done this? Am I techniqueifying willful tolerance? Is is this that? No, it's just now's a chance to be brave. There's no strict outcome. And if I'm teary, I'm teary. Allow yourself. Avoiding tears and stuff is is not. I've I've done plenty of exposures when I felt teary. Yeah. And I don't care. Um, I really just don't care. You know, I don't it it literally doesn't make any sense to me, maybe because of my autistic mind. Like there's literally function helped helping us to process intense emotions.

SPEAKER_05 17:30

Yeah, I agree.

Josh Fletcher 17:31

Use it. No, no, we must hide it. Why? Because it makes other people uncomfortable. So if you're someone, someone in the audience has said, you know, I grew up in the 90s and apparently mental health didn't exist because people are uncomfortable with it. Yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't made to be normalized, it wasn't there. And so when you cry, it actually makes other people anxious. So ironically, you're taking a step of doing that, processing that.

Drew Linsalata 17:55

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 17:56

Because it's actually triggering other people. But they pretend they're not. Like, no, we just don't talk about that. Why?

Drew Linsalata 18:02

Because you're anxious, you don't like it. Yeah, yeah. Well done, though. And some of the courage, I think, is the courage to like what that person says is great. And yeah, and it's the courage to almost break that contract, whether it's a cultural, a social, a family contract. Ugh, we don't do that. So if you were taught to pipe down, sit down, stiff upper lip, don't cry, because you're making everybody else uncomfortable if you are emotional. It is such a huge ask to tell somebody with OCD to allow that horrible terror to flow through them. Because that is that is an emotional state, and I'm the state itself becomes a violation. Like, no, no, no, I'm supposed to hold it together, don't you understand? Ah. So not only do you have to surrender to the the the theme or whatever you think the outcome of is of your panic or whatever it is, but now you also have to allow yourself to be highly emotional with no restraints or restrictions, and which is also really scary depending on how you're brought up and where you come from.

Josh Fletcher 19:00

Trusting yourself as well to do it like with finesse in class.

SPEAKER_05 19:04

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 19:04

You're not gonna be rolling around screaming, and that you're not gonna do that. You'll always have a level of control in it. But if you're like, no, I'm a bit teary now, you know. That's cool. You can just do that.

SPEAKER_05 19:15

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 19:16

Um and and it's fine. Uh, would you like a did it anyway? I've got a written one.

Drew Linsalata 19:21

You never don't want one.

Josh Fletcher 19:22

So yeah, yeah. This this is from Chloe, this one. Um hi Josh and Drew. My name is Chloe, and you can use my name. Here's a did it anyway. I've been waiting to send. Uh, you guys probably don't remember, but I submitted a question just over a year ago. Yeah, we probably don't. But if you do, uh Drew, let me know. That was a that was oh no, it was read out on the podcast, episode 126. I was newly engaged and on the fence about whether planning a wedding was a good idea for me at the time. Is it wedding wedding theme? I know it's all about it. Uh yeah, I had experienced panic disorder for nearly two years and was still having days where I struggled. I really wanted to get married to my partner, but attending weddings in the past were a big trigger for my anxiety. Um the canopies were a terrible choice. Um I mainly struggled with the formality of the day and the feeling of being trapped during ceremonies and even had a couple of panic attacks during my friends' weddings. At the time I didn't want to plan a day in which I imagined being filled with panic attacks. Oh, here we are again. I imagined being filled with panic attacks whilst also being the center of attention. Not a great mix, if you ask me. Well, after you both gave me the encouragement, encouragement to plan the day that I wish. Did we do that during this? Evidently.

Drew Linsalata 20:43

We're wedding planners too, by the way. More details. Follow us for wedding tips.

Josh Fletcher 20:49

Yeah, and not listening to those anxious thoughts. I got married last Saturday and can honestly say I had the best day. There's two people get here's if you listen to disordered, you end up getting married, you live happily ever.

Drew Linsalata 21:03

You have a big house, successful business.

Josh Fletcher 21:08

On the build up to the big day, I was becoming more aware of my stress drug filling up and my health anxiety thoughts getting louder, such as, what if I get a stomach bug or food poisoning just before my wedding day? That would be fun. However, from the advice I have learned from this podcast, I was able to recognize these thoughts, allow them to be there, but to not make them the most important thing in the room and would notice them, then they would pass another good student. This is fantastic. This also helped me during the wedding day, including the ceremony. I did have my usual anxious thoughts of feeling trapped and got a tight chest, but again, by acknowledging these thoughts as what they were, just thoughts, not reality, and not running away from them, they quickly subsided and I was able to enjoy the rest of the day. I wanted to send in this update to thank you both for not only giving me the confidence to make the leap and push myself. Out of my comfort zone, but to give me the tools to allow me to continue living my life with anxiety. Lastly, I also want to give anyone who is listening hope that even on one of the most important days of my life, I felt nerves, had anxious thoughts, had some symptoms that could have turned into a panic attack, but nothing bad happened. Craig the critic had a day off, and I had the best day of my life and wouldn't have changed a thing. Thanks again from Chloe. Thank you, Chloe, for sharing. Congratulations on the wedding. Really awesome. Yeah, that's so nice. Rather than waiting to feel better, you took the courage with you, Chloe. Yeah. And it paid diffidence. But I love how you even said you had the best day. But anxiety was there, it just wasn't the most important thing in the room. You get a lot of perfectionists that come very sick and tired and impatient, which I understand and empathize with. No, no, I want to get rid of it. I want to get rid of it. I want to enjoy my day without it. And yeah, Chloe's had the best day with it. I was like, oh, I've noticed those thoughts there, or yeah, my chest was a bit tight, or whatever. Some people might listen to that and go, no, no, I don't I don't want to do that to her. But actually, Chloe's learning that her own courage, her own ability to get through it, and then things will get easier and easier. Please take note of that.

Drew Linsalata 23:15

Yeah, I and in the end, you know, every one of these did it anyways you've ever heard on this podcast involves somebody being brave in some way. And none are small. So there's none, there's no small bravery. All bravery is big because you think there's something wrong and this is going to be a threat or unhandleable, whatever your whatever the interpretation is. But I do it anyway because there's something more important to me than being feeling safe on the other side of this. That that's why I did it. So there's courage, and every did it anyway. Everyone has courage, every last one.

Josh Fletcher 23:48

I've repeated it over and over again in this pocket. The scariest thing I've ever done in my life is to walk into the supermarket and buy five items. And I've I have fallen into the Zambezi River, micro microlighted over Victoria Falls, spoken in front of thousands of people, done all loads of things, ceremonies, things like that. Going into uh Asda Express in Aberton. If you ever go drive through Aberton, which you won't, but if you ever do and you go drive past Asda Express, uh that's the scare, most scared I've ever been in my life. Silly to everyone else.

SPEAKER_05 24:21

Yeah, I agree.

Josh Fletcher 24:23

That was there. Uh I have a cool question that ties into today's theme that we can answer, which is really, really fun. Actually, I want to talk that this question doesn't come with a lack of courage, but it comes with some frustration. And I thought it'd be a really nice question from a from someone. Uh, this is from Stanley. And Stanley says, Hello, recently recently I got an injection, flu jab, and was prepared to use it as an opportunity to practice riding out a panic attack. Great attitude. Love that straight away. I felt anxious and uncomfortable during the injection, but a full panic attack didn't happen. To push myself further, where's Billy Mays? To push myself further. He's here somewhere. He's here.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

But I'm not done yet.

Josh Fletcher 25:04

I got in the car and drove home expecting to panic, and still nothing happened. So I upped the ante.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

But I'm not done yet.

Josh Fletcher 25:16

Even more, and took the dogs for a brisk walk. Sure, this would definitely trigger a panic attack. But no, I was annoyingly calm. Eventually, I just went home and gave up. So my question is how do you approach exposure practice when you're actively trying to face panic or fear, but your body refuses to really get properly scared and have a panic attack? All that happens is just anxious discomfort. Over to you, Drew. I love this question.

Drew Linsalata 25:45

That's such a great question. It is that is such an anxiety disorder question. It's the like somebody who's clearly doing much better than they used to, asking, but what am I doing wrong? Like, right? Like it would it's relentless in the the like the criticism and the nitpicking and the and the perfectionism. You're doing it right. Clearly, that's working out very well. I was it's not a courage you were. It's not a courage. That's exactly right. Like you don't people often say, Well, do I have to panic to to recover? Well, often we do, but you don't have to, you just have to be completely willing to, which is a brave thing to do.

Josh Fletcher 26:20

Which Stanley was doing. That's exactly right. And that's it. So that that is the exposure.

Drew Linsalata 26:24

And wouldn't you know, paradoxically speaking, as soon as you stop fighting, things tend to get easier, even though they're scarier. Like, so like there's what do you do with that? I don't know. Celebrate. Like, put your feet up, watch your favorite movie. Like, clearly. That's a perfectionist. Yeah, you're making progress. Like, that's a great thing. Oh, but I didn't panic, and now what can I do different next time? I don't know. In that situation, we might move up an exposure ladder. If you're my therapy client, we might say, okay, you this is not an exposure, and we need to move up. Or we might say, You might be done. Like, there might be nothing else to do. We don't know.

Josh Fletcher 26:57

The top of that ladder, and I'm suspecting just from the little bit of information we got from Stanley.

Drew Linsalata 27:02

Sure.

Josh Fletcher 27:02

It's the top of that ladder is having a panic when you're not controlling and inducing it. Oh, there you go. Fair enough. So yeah, because he's like, I'm trying to induce it myself, which is great. Sure. The final boss is you're just gonna get one, an adrenaline dump when you when you're not in control. Right. That's your final one. So so keep living your life. Yeah, you're winning, but it's about getting one. You know, you will get one and you might get one. It might be ages. Don't look out for it, don't compulse. Just be like, oh, when it starts, and that's that's the top of your ladder. The one that you can't evoke like a genie.

Drew Linsalata 27:36

Yeah, and sometimes that means that you you're not gonna be able to trigger it. Like if you are at the point where you could be like, Well, let me now let me go do this really scary thing so that I panic, and you can't, it means that you have legitimately learned to not pick up a can of gasoline when the fire starts. Like the anxiety fire starts burning, and for many, many years, or however long it was, you picked up a gas can to put it out, and you have now learned do not pick up the gas can that is wrong. And so you don't, and it doesn't turn into a raging inferno, and like good job. So no matter where you try to trigger it, you might find have the same experience now. I just can't seem to make it happen. Cool, good job.

Josh Fletcher 28:13

And that applies to you know, the fine the final boss, as a lot of the audience is saying the final boss, yeah, the unexpected panic. Yeah, it's no different to that, but it's not the the unexpected intrusive thoughts. So you can do loads of a lot of OCD desensitization um and OCD getting better, is um not only you know addressing and doing you know response prevention work with your theme and stuff like that, it's knowing that you probably will get another theme one day. But remembering the courage. So remember the courage that you had. This is so important. I think it's probably the icing on the cake for this episode. Fully desensitizing is remembering the courage that you had and were willing to have. Two people can go two ways. Oh, I've been triggered after two years, I'm relapsing, I'm going backwards, blah blah blah. You forgot the courage that you had originally to come around. Same with OCD, I'm getting an intrusive thought, you know, killing my pet or marrying someone else, or lose this, or what's my sexuality, or am I gonna kill someone, am I gonna lose this job? Whatever. Remember the courage you had for that doubt response. It's the same. This is where anxiety disorders always overlap. You got out because of courage, courage to not respond, to to not try and control and mitigate and lower and all that. But sometimes you could just fall back into old habits. So yeah, you go there because you had courage. You had courage to leave it alone in my case. Mine was the probably the crux of my anxiety was the courage to leave it alone in a world that tells you to do everything to optimize.

Drew Linsalata 29:52

100%. I I agree 100%. Like I got, I'm supposed to do something because somebody in the audience said I seem to struggle to focus on anything than how I feel or what I might feel. I just can't leave it alone. The courage there, and and and I want to say two things here. Number one, you have to remember that when you listen to this podcast, we are never suggesting dangerous things. That would be unethical and ridiculous. We would be psychopaths when we work with F-therapy clients. We are never suggesting they do actual dangerous, risky things, only scary things. And like, how can we be so confident to sit here and say it's okay you can let go when you think you're about to have a psychotic break and think you're supposed to hang on? Well, because the things you are doing to fight only give you the illusion of control. There was never anything to control. So, like, you have to learn that that was illusory, that was imaginary, that was you know, the hanging on. But I have to look at it. I can't possibly focus on anything else. I know because it feels too scary to take your eyes off that. But keeping your eyes on it did nothing, it never did anything. So that's your ammo, that's the rationale for being trying to be courageous. You still have to be courageous because you don't believe it until you do it. But in the end, like, but but but I just but it's just so bad. I know. So re where does courage fit in in that that thing? But it just feels so scary. I can't take my eyes off it. The courageous leap of faith is I'm gonna have to take my eyes off it. And it feels like I will miss something or I will let something go, and then the bad thing will happen, but it won't. Yeah. Let's do another audio did it anyway, because I think this is a really it's a relatively short winner, has a great example of what courage would look like. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Hey Josh and Drew. My name is Andrew. I am a longtime health anxiety sufferer. Uh, still do, but it's getting a lot better, especially thanks to you guys, and I appreciate that. Um, I just want to share a did it anyway. I had recently run a Ultra Marathon 100K, and about halfway through I was running, and my I noticed my heart rate had spiked up. Nothing dangerous, but it just gave me anxiety. Um, I was with my wife at the time because she was able to run with me for a few miles, and she was able to settle me down, uh, reminded me about everything that I've learned from you guys, and she was able to settle me down and get my heart rate back to where I thought it should be at the time. Um, it helped out immensely, and I think that those people in our lives that help us out like that, um, even though they don't think they're doing a ton, are doing great things for us to help us keep going. And I don't think I ever would have survived that rest of that race without her. Um, but I just wanted to share that and I appreciate everything you guys do. Thanks.

Drew Linsalata 32:45

How is it? I don't know why it's not playing, but there we go. 100k ultra.

Josh Fletcher 32:54

Yeah, but have you ever done 100k?

Drew Linsalata 32:56

If I add up all the running in my whole life, it might not be 100k. I mean, it's possible that I've run under 100k in my entire adult life.

Josh Fletcher 33:06

I'm not sure, but well, but even it goes to show even anxiety can affect everyone. Absolutely. Oh, yeah. Halfway around doing 100k, I noticed that maybe I might be having some health anxiety.

Drew Linsalata 33:18

Yeah, I have heart, I I have health anxiety. I'm running a hundred kilometers. What the hell is a kilometer? We say here in the States, but and then I feel my heart. I don't like what I feel in my heart. Wow, talk about a courageous moment right there.

Josh Fletcher 33:33

I work with a lot of people though through through being a therapist where people with cardiophobia they go one way or the other, they'll go, no, like compulsively avoid. And by the way, well done for doing that, Dedarius. It's so good. I'm jealous of Andrew. I did 10k once and that I was happy with that. Yeah, I'm done. Retired. Um, but um, no, they'll go two ways. They'll either be like, I can't exercise, I can't walk up the stairs, can't get my heart rate up. And then some people compulsively test to the extreme, like, well, if if I can if I can keep doing marathons, then then my heart's fine, right? Yeah, and I'm like, and and some I've never only since becoming a therapist have I seen people use running like as a test as a compulsion, right? As a safety behavior, yeah. That's right. Yeah. I'm not saying that the this person did that and it's incredible. And I love that bit where your wife came and supported you along. I think it was so beautiful. I hope you both really celebrated that excellent achievement.

Drew Linsalata 34:27

Yeah, I get that. The courageous moment there is I'm in the middle of this ultra marathon. I don't like the way my heart feels. Everything I I don't know what Andrew was feeling, of course, but I'm guessing, as a former cardiophobia person, everything inside who was saying, stop running now, end the race, and get medical attention. And the courageous thing, and kudos to his wife for reminding him, no, no, no, no, no. I know you want to do that, but like you can you can do this, you can work through that. Was uh I'll take the next step and the next step and the next step. I won't save myself. Oh, look, I didn't need to save myself. Who saw that coming? Wow.

Josh Fletcher 35:01

Yeah, that's really he gets a Billy Maze.

Drew Linsalata 35:03

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

But I'm not done yet.

Drew Linsalata 35:06

He gets all the wait, all the things. I give him an eagle and everything for 100k. I mean, I'm duly impressed, man. I would give the sad fanfare, but that almost feels insulting.

Josh Fletcher 35:16

No, can you do one for me when I when I tried the 10k the other day and only did four?

Drew Linsalata 35:21

Oh that's 4K though, Josh.

Josh Fletcher 35:26

No wife running, no right wife running beside me saying carry on, just an inner voice saying go to the pub.

Drew Linsalata 35:33

Just the gray skies of Manchester, a lonely 4K of failure.

Josh Fletcher 35:38

It was sunny actually. Good job.

Drew Linsalata 35:40

Well done. Yeah, but yeah, sometimes you just gotta be courageous. It's okay. Like we we we are cheering for you to be courageous because it is safe to be courageous. And but you gotta be courageous because you don't think it is.

Josh Fletcher 35:52

So when I run as well, it's like the scene from Jurassic Park when you see the ripples in the in the in the water. Yeah, at that same speed as well.

Drew Linsalata 36:02

Like Ryan, is it just me? I feel I'm not really not built like a runner, but same thing. I feel like I'm literally like the pounding. What's up with that? Somebody needs to teach me how to run better. I'm a pro goofy.

Josh Fletcher 36:13

Yeah, no, I just yeah, yeah, I run like a chicken. Yeah, 62.2 miles, by the way. I run like a chicken towards chicken.

Drew Linsalata 36:23

Hey, but listen, and and you know what? The courage uh to sort of maybe try to wrap it up a little bit, these do not have to be giant grand, like cinematic gestures of courage. They may feel like it inside, but like believe it or not, it's repeated little displays of of courage, bravery, surrender, tolerance. Like they add up. So, like nobody does the thing once, and then like I'm fixed, and then and their anxiety sort of goes away. So, like, just be patient, please. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josh Fletcher 36:54

It's good to be patient. Um, do we have anything else other than be courageous? Remember, the moment you get anxious, whether it's first thing in the morning or triggered in the middle of something you're enjoying, that's step one. Amegdullah is activated, now's time to show my courage. Absolutely. When you've got internal Craig the Critic saying, You again, you're not doing it right, and this and that, you can't do it. Well, prove it wrong. We know anxiety in Craig the Cricket, a cricket, cricket, Craig the Critic of terrible, terrible predictors of what actually happens. So call it out, call it out, see, be curious. Yeah, as they say in the UK, f f around and find out about it. You'll find that they're often wrong and you're more capable than what you think.

Drew Linsalata 37:37

Yeah, that's exactly right. Being afraid doesn't mean you're not courageous. Doing it while you're while you're afraid, that's courage. So it's all good.

Josh Fletcher 37:44

Yeah, and whatever it is, someone reminds in the in the audience for some people just leaving the house can be bit death because yes, it's one of the bravest things I've ever done. Yeah.

Drew Linsalata 37:51

Uh sometimes just getting off the sofa. Like, that's that's sometimes an act of courage. Doing nothing could be an act of courage. Somebody said, like, I'm sitting here listening to you guys record and I'm having a flood of thoughts about health disasters. Yeah, not doing anything about that is an act of courage. Like, I know what this is, and it makes me want to fit save myself from my health, but I won't do anything. That's courageous.

Josh Fletcher 38:14

And it doesn't have to be conventional either. You it can just be at like Sunday dinner with your family. Like, as long if you're triggered, that's where courage is. It's literally a fear response. You're going toadstood with your fear response. It doesn't have to be conventional. Yeah. You know, it doesn't matter. That's that's courageous. And if you do have done something courageous, send it into disorder.fm as a voice note, or you can send it as a message, or if you're part of the community app, you can share it in the Did It Anyway section where we all celebrate. It's completely up to you, or it could just be a nice quiet reflection with between you, yourself, or you and a loved one. And make sure you do reinforce it with that positivity.

Drew Linsalata 38:51

Sure, I get it. Anyway, guys, all right, we'll do it again next week. What do you say? Friday again? Should we do it again next week?

Josh Fletcher 38:58

I think we should. Yeah, let's do Friday again. Friday, Friday. Gotta get down on Friday. Rebecca Black's my favorite musician.

Drew Linsalata 39:04

And if you're planning a wedding, don't let that be your wedding song. See? Follow us for wedding tips. We'll straight you right up. So, all right, guys, we're back next week. Thanks for hanging out.