Anxiety, People Pleasing, and Self-Esteem (Episode 170)

Josh Fletcher 0:01

People pleasing and self-esteem. How you measure your esteem does overlap very heavily with anxiety disorders, pressure to get better or desensitize as quickly as possible, uh, so other people are pleased.

Drew Linsalata 0:14

Because sometimes people's emotional state is viewed by friends, family as like you're doing that to me. Like if you're really upset, Josh, what why are you doing that to me? I can really feel the people-pleasing thing. Looping through that conversation over and over and over to see, we okay? Like that he hasn't texted me back, or like we haven't talked in two days.

Josh Fletcher 0:31

A threat isn't just angry dogs and people attacking you physically and stuff like that. A threat can be to your safety, your esteem, your feeling of belonging.

Drew Linsalata 0:41

I think there's a lot of credence behind the theory that like natural selection selected for people who are more cooperative because we had a better chance of surviving.

Josh Fletcher 0:53

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 170 entitled People Pleasing in Self-Esteem. My name is Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. And for the 170th time, I will introduce myself as a psychotherapist, author, and um specialist in anxiety and anxiety disorders, previous sufferer, uh, an ex-people pleaser, now what people annoy you, and uh and I enjoy it. And um, yes, I'm looking forward to talking about this topic today. And I'm joined by my esteemed co-host.

Drew Linsalata 1:29

Yeah, I am Drew Lensolata, never people pleaser. I'm also a therapist that specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm in New York on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. All the stuff that Josh said, former sufferer author, we've written books. We wrote a book together, Disordered Guide to Health Anxiety. That was pretty cool. And yeah, 170 times. You know, if we were smart, we would just make like a canned intro and just play it. No, nah, don't do that. Dork smart. What's that all about? Anyway, authentic, you know.

Josh Fletcher 1:57

We'll just assume that you we know who you are, or you know who people are. It's pumped full of better health ads and Huel and all that crap.

Drew Linsalata 2:05

We are the last people not sponsored by Huel, or one of those online, like uh you know, the ones that all have online courses, they are big too.

Josh Fletcher 2:16

Or some energy drink that has like ten times the caffeine that you should allow that to eight-year-olds. Um anyway, yeah. People pleasing and self-esteem. It's a big one because not everything is an anxiety disorder, but everything, some a lot of things go into the stress jug. Um, obviously, when you have an anxiety disorder, you've got to be brave, gotta be honest, you've got to lean into uncertainty, you've got to do tricky things, and sometimes that might be in front of other people, or it might be because you feel pressure from other people. Um, how you measure your esteem does overlap very heavily with anxiety disorders. Um, particularly if you're someone who you know who's always conscious, feels like a mere cat where you when other people are involved and how you're perceived. So I think the first thing we should do, Drew, is kind of let's mark out the uh the what the traits of a common people pleaser is. Um, and anyone in our studio audience you can chime in as well. Some ideas so people might be able to relate at home. So, first of all, people pleaser, you're the first person that always says yes when you really want to say no.

Drew Linsalata 3:27

Yeah, and the others. Probably right. I'm gonna say people pleasers tend to be hyper-vigilant for other people's facial expressions and body language. Are they mad at me? Did I say something wrong? Did I offend somebody? Did I let them down? Always on the lookout for confirmation that they've they've done the wrong thing.

Josh Fletcher 3:44

Yeah, absolutely. And um, reassurance seeking, do you still like me, pleasing, going against your own values and opinions just to please other people?

Drew Linsalata 3:53

Oh, that's a really good one. I I see that in my practice a lot. Like, no, I'm not being my real self because like I feels too risky to actually be who I want to be. That's a tough one, right? Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 4:03

Someone in the audience said, Um, the worst thing I could possibly be is a bother. Yeah. That's a very common people.

Drew Linsalata 4:10

Which in our context, I think, really can get in the way because we are encouraging people to allow anxiety, panic, being really upset, being triggered. You know, all emotions are are acceptable. We talk about all the time. Like, for a lot of people, like, no, no, no, no, no. I don't I that means I might make a scene or like be perceived. Or maybe they came from an environment where they were told to like put a lid on that. You're ruining my day. And then, you know, that plays into all this.

Josh Fletcher 4:34

I've worked with people and know people who they're literally surrounded by people who are anxious themselves but don't take accountability for that. And they're like, We can only get better when you get better. I mean, that just that boils my blood, that honestly. It's just like, why don't you just take responsibility for yourself as well and help a loved one? You know, that's a really good point. Yeah. But then there's an element of people pleasing in that, isn't there? It's like, oh god, I've got to get better. There's pressure to get better or desensitize um as quickly as possible, uh, so other people are pleased.

Drew Linsalata 5:09

Yeah, there could be the I need to do things to please people, or I need to make sure I don't do things. Like I just need to be invisible and not rock the boat. And you're right, I can't get better unless you get better. Or like sometimes people's emotional state are uh is viewed by friends, family as like you're doing that to me. Like if you're really upset, Josh, what why are you doing that to me? Why why are you doing that to me? Like your feelings are are somehow some you're doing something to me, and that that can really fuel the people pleasing thing.

Josh Fletcher 5:39

Is that ego dystonic? What's the word for that? Something like that, like or almost solipsistic, isn't it? Like, how how how are you affecting my world? Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, other ones, uh, you're very sensitive to people's moods, emotions. Um, and a big one is are they annoyed at me? Yeah. Oh, that's one of the big ones. The biggest ones. Are they annoyed at me? Yeah, annoyed at me.

Drew Linsalata 6:02

For for which I feed feeds rumination, you know. We talk about rumination all the time. Like they're looping through that conversation over and over and over to see where I don't know. I feel like we're okay. Are we okay? Like that he hasn't texted me back or like we haven't talked in two days, and keep looping through to try to find confidence like that we're okay. That's a tough one.

Josh Fletcher 6:20

Yeah, yeah. Someone in the audience said, My biggest sign of people pleasing is guilt, massive one. Yeah, yeah, just I feel guilty constantly. Uh, someone else said, I constantly seek approval or praise, but have difficulty accepting a compliment when one comes my way. So I overcommit myself and then feel angry when I'm not appreciated. Well, that's a good self-awareness, isn't it?

unknown 6:42

Yeah, isn't it?

Josh Fletcher 6:42

Problem is my anger is just stuck and it manifests as anxiety, um, all from growing up in a tricky environment. Yeah, I mean, often this is where I'm we we're not born people pleasers, we're actually born very selfish. Look at any baby, and a baby is not interested in pleasing you. A baby and an infant and a toddler does not is not interested, it just wants to drink milk, eat mushy food, shit their pants, and go to sleep. And to be honest, that's a great life. I don't know.

Drew Linsalata 7:10

I was gonna say that somewhere that's my usual Tuesday.

Josh Fletcher 7:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But something happens as we as as as developmentally when people grow up and stuff like that, and we start to absorb and interject beliefs, and we have more complex relationships with people around us, uh, parents, siblings, school friends, uh, maybe we get into relationships where it's not great. And suddenly that threat response, uh, where there's a there's a there's a part of the brain called A that's often kind of you know um involved with that. Do we do we have a button for that?

Drew Linsalata 7:47

Oh, we do.

Josh Fletcher 7:48

Amygdala.

Drew Linsalata 7:49

There you go.

Josh Fletcher 7:50

And um it's a very simplistic kind of explanation, but we keep things simple here. It's that uh the amygdala encodes and stores memories of threat. You know, that's what happened. Now, a threat isn't just angry dogs and people attacking you physically and stuff like that. A threat can be to your safety, your esteem, your feeling of belonging. Or if you go all the way back to our ancestors, you know, we've got to people please the leader of this tribe, even though he's a giant knob, because it's better to be safe and alive in the tribe than stand there and be like, I'm not appreciating your microaggressions. No, you have to kind of do it. And so what you have to do is like, yeah, that could that threat response can be conditioned not just from panic attacks and intrusive thoughts and stuff, which is what we all do in this community, but also um from our experiences. So if you do are a people pleaser, I would bank on this being a very learned behavior, albeit direct or indirect. And as a therapist, I love to stroll down memory lane sometimes and kind of unpick that.

Drew Linsalata 8:59

Yeah. I that's that social safety, or you know, it's not always like oh I'm having a heart attack or I'm going crazy. I just might be outcast. And and you know, it's really I I think there's a lot of credence behind the theory that like natural selection selected for people who are more cooperative because we had a better chance of surviving. So like we we have been conditioned and naturally selected to work.

Josh Fletcher 9:20

But I would have been dead 100 years ago. No way. I would have never made it.

Drew Linsalata 9:23

I would be the leader of the tribe or dead by the time I was 11 years old. So can't you could go either way, right? But uh I did was there a lot of discussions about microaggressions and hunter-gatherer tribes? I mean, it's a microaggression tribe.

Josh Fletcher 9:36

I don't know. I mean, it's important now, obviously, as we evolve as a society. But you know, that's a tongue in cheek remark. And if you are around microaggressions, then please respect your boundaries and ask people not to do microaggressions. I get it. But in general, um yeah, it's all this um stuff is usually interjected, absorbed, and learned. Um, many examples. So if you grew up maybe in a home where emotions were not freely given, or only certain emotions were freely given. Yeah. So if you grew up in a home where you weren't praised a lot, but there was a lot of shouting and violence, volatility or unpredictability, um your amygdala would interpret that as threat.

unknown 10:17

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 10:18

And the best way to mitigate threat is to make sure the threat is calm or happy or pleased. Um, same in relationships too. That's just one example, right? You know, uh, you could be in an abusive relationship where you do get overly praised, but then also you see operant conditioning where you get loads of praise for doing what they want, but when you start to think about yourself, then that isn't backed up with anything or celebrated and or even kind of put down. Again, the threat response is I'm never going to consider me first. Everyone else needs to be considered first. Maybe you uh introjected a belief from but with your self-esteem that you always have to be the helper, you're the helper in your family. Um, you always get stuff done, you're the problem solver. You often see this with elderly people and their children underneath them. There's like four or five siblings, but only one ends up sticking around to look after him while everyone else is gallivanting off. Right. Uh, often because they're lumbered with that guilt and and ways to do that. There's different ways, but what you've got to realize is that if you're a people pleaser and you want to overcome an anxiety disorder and desensitize, it does require you to put yourself first. Yeah. And that quite can be we talk about compassion being a really big hurdle, but also the people-pleasing aspect. And this is why we wanted to talk about it today.

Drew Linsalata 11:37

I I'm kind of convinced we've talked about this before. Like, without some kindness, self-acceptance, and we've talked it, we did a whole episode, like all versions of yourself, even the anxious, uncomfortable, less than optimal versions have to be accepted and given kindness, you without that part of this, you forget the floating, accepting exposure, willful tolerance. There's none there is none without that, I think. Like if you don't have some measure of self-acceptance and self-kindness and self-compassion, it's really hard to let yourself intentionally sort of fall apart and be sub-optimal to learn from that. And if you have low self-esteem and you are a people pleaser as a result, you you're not pleasing anybody while you are doing exposure work or tolerating difficult feelings. You are working on yourself. So there's no people pleasing, and you are allowing yourself to appear broken, weak, you know, afraid, like inappropriate, like all of those things have to happen. So if you go into this saying, nope, I uh the minute I'm triggered that I am failing, which is I one of the biggest obstacles I see in my practice. Uh yeah, I want to do acceptance and exposure and all that stuff, but the minute I'm triggered, I have failed because I I'm my weakness, my my unworthiness is being exposed, and I'm and I'm making it a problem for people. People are going to see me, I'm going to upset them. Can't cannot balance those two things.

Josh Fletcher 12:53

It's quite big in the community as well, even the studio audience here as well. Like, look at some of these comments. Like, I feel I cannot show that I am happy when the other person is in a bad mood. Right. Why? What's that like to say out loud? What why why aren't you allowed to be happy?

Drew Linsalata 13:09

Well, sometimes it gets only because I recognize it, like it gets connected to the whole, like, I my OCD is a scrupulosity or a moral, moral goodness uh theme, and like I'm always worried that I'm being a bad person. Always. I'm constantly checking that I'm a bad person. So if that person is sad and I'm happy, then I'm harming them. And oh no, my fear that I'm a bad person has come true.

Josh Fletcher 13:30

So yeah, overlaps of those CDs.

Drew Linsalata 13:34

I can overlap with almost everything. Caretake GAD. I think people with GAD are susceptible to this too. If you're a people pleaser and your your esteem, your worth comes from being the problem solver, the multitasker, the caretaker, the protector, the predictor, then you are going to be in your head all day long trying to control every gear in the universe. Because if I can, then who am I? Right? So it shows up everywhere. Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 13:58

Remember that we did some similar episodes like this on Disordered, we did one on perfectionism, and we did one on self-esteem and stuff and introjections and things. So feel free if this is resonating with you, go back and listen to those. Don't get me wrong, esteem comes from experience as well. So you build confidence through experience, experiential learning, and internalizing that you did that. Um but when you're people pleasing in particular, it's very tricky to like for example, I don't know, maybe I need to take a week off work to go do some exposures or whatnot, or rest, but I can't because I I want to please my colleagues or my boss or or whatever, you know, or um or or you're trying to empty the stress jug to give you enough resources to go and do tricky things to fill it up again, and it's very tricky. Um, and also, yeah, it's just take a second to realise like how often do I put my opinion and my feelings aside in order to make sure that that other person is okay, is is pleased. Now, don't get me wrong, that's okay. It shows that you're not a selfish person, yeah. But there's got to be balance, there's got to be times where it's like, no, this is about me now. Um, and often people, people pleasers won't do that because as soon as they do that or prioritize themselves, because there's almost a comfort in people pleasing, at least well uh uh I'm pleasing others, so that that means I I can not berate myself for a bit because that's a virtue.

unknown 15:32

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 15:32

But when you do prioritize yourself to try and desensitize and be selfish and do all these things, uh it lays out the foreground for our good friend Craig the Critic, who walks in straight away. Yeah.

Drew Linsalata 15:44

It's Craig the Critic. I and I in in the the ver I like how you said it's a virtue. Like underneath a lot of these things are are reasonable values that we all tend to agree on. We want to be community-oriented, we want to be cooperative, we want to be kind, we want to help each other, we want to be compassionate to each other. And so those values though get co-opted and lit on fire and then turned as weapons against yourself if you're struggling with this sort of stuff. Because it seems like the right thing to do, right? Like, I'll be a people pleaser, I'll make sure everybody's happy. Isn't that correct? That's right. We all agree, that's right. Yes, we all agree that that's a nice way to be, but it can't be the only way to be. And like if I'm not that, then I have a major problem. So it's really tricky because sometimes it people pleasing and like trying to keep that low self-esteem under wraps looks like being a good person or or exhibiting those values of kindness and community, sometimes, but not always. It's tricky, right? It's kind of tough. So many comments flying in in the in the studio. They're clearly with you in the past.

Josh Fletcher 16:44

I told you it is people pleasing and and and and especially in my uh practice of been a therapist 10-12 years now. The overlap, I'm not saying one equals the other, right? But I'm saying, you know, there's like a there's a big overlap between um unpredictable kind of childhoods and OCD. Not everyone, you can just get OCD randomly, you know, you don't need to go down and ruminate down memory lane. But I found that there's uh there's often like a big correlation there sometimes.

Drew Linsalata 17:14

You know, I I and I I want to we'll play a did it anyway in a second, because I we talked about experiential learning, and I I want to get to that part. Like you can't just decide to see yourself differently, you can only act differently and learn from that. But people will often ask me, you know, well, why how did you go so fast? Well, first of all, I didn't go fast, but once I finally sort of made the decision, this is what I have to do to get better. I was very, very fortunate. Now, you introduced yourself as a former people pleaser. I never had that trait. I consider myself incredibly fortunate that I wasn't trapped in people pleasing, and I've never had a really I you know, I mean no surprise here. I don't have a poor self-esteem. I never had that. I don't know why. I'm just fortunate that that's the way it worked out. So I didn't have any of those opportunities. That's it. You know, I'm perfectly isolated and what was I doing? Eating mushy food and shitting my pants. So like I'm good with that. And in a way, when people like read my first book about what I did, you know, like, well, like how did you do that? I I didn't suffer from the oh my god, I'm I'm horrible because I'm panicking, like I'm broken, this is my weakness. I I never I I guess I didn't have that, and I think it made a difference. So, for what it's worth, I didn't have that struggle that so many people have. Very fortunate for that. Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 18:28

And part of our job as therapists is to look at the hurdles. So we always bang on about willful tolerance, ERP, stuff like that. But a good therapist will also be like, Well, you can throw ERP at people, but then some people don't like ERP, or some people aren't doing it right, or then they're not don't have the attitude. Yep. Because part of the attitude shift is actually I prioritize myself first. Yeah. And I, as a therapist, will look at those hurdles, find those hurdles first to see why it doesn't kind of work.

Drew Linsalata 18:52

Oh, 100%. So we often say, like, yeah, everybody, well, everybody's different. Yeah, that is 100% true. Like the principles that we're talking about are kind of universal, but when you find somebody who has been at this for years, they know all the things. They could recite the principles and the theory back to us, but they're just having a hard time executing it. This is one of those things that you want to look for. And I think it's one of those things that makes being able to see the nuance and work one-on-one, and it doesn't scale to millions of people, and you can't have hundred people coaching groups and expect that people are going to get better because of this sort of thing. It was one of the first things I saw when I started practicing, like, oh, this is why you have been struggling for five years and eight other therapists. I will just call out our own profession. We tend to use modalities that tend to be manualized. And how many times have you heard, well, OCD, it's you know, like 32 sessions, and we're usually pretty good, or this number of sessions is is for this, and this is what we do week one, week two, week three. No, not none of a person can't do that because of this. So we we have a lot of things.

Josh Fletcher 19:54

Again, people in the audience saying, like, actually, no, yeah, I can relate. OCD, my childhood was volatile, but then this is the thing, like you like I often use the analogy that you say, Drew. Like, okay, you can acknowledge and reflect. Okay, I can see why my brain is intolerant to uncertainty. You know, maybe, maybe it w it it wired that way to help protect me, whatever, who knows? But the work is in the now. Yeah, so you could spend years reflecting on that and how bad it was and stuff. But if you've got an OCD fixated brain like me and Drew and people in this community, the work initially is the response prevention. We need to calm down that misfiring and make the now. And then it's I often find it's nice to okay, acknowledge it, and then if you want to reflect afterwards, that's cool and do that kind of stuff. But whereas some therapists will be like, no, let's just spend hours and weeks and months and uh and and uh to to to be okay with that memory. And like, no you OCD and anxiety disorders and sensitization are all about the now. Yeah, you know, the the fire, the firemen don't turn up and be like, Whoa, I wonder how this started. They were like, Let's put out the damn fire.

Drew Linsalata 21:06

Right, then we'll figure that out. Right, exactly.

Josh Fletcher 21:08

Then we'll figure it out.

Drew Linsalata 21:09

Yeah, but we had a comment in in the studio audience earlier that said, the awareness of my automatic behaviors and reactions has helped me take a beat to start choosing. And that's it. So while, you know, if if this sort of stuff is appearing, we might, I might work with a therapy client to say, okay, well, when we do this exposure or you find yourself challenged, you know, expect it. We got to watch the gears turn, come into the moment, be aware of the process playing out. And if part of the process is, can you notice there's that I stuck thought, there it is, again, again. And instead of just automatically following it, we have to take that into consideration, not just a rapid heartbeat or like catastrophic thoughts. The judgment, the harsh, I'm failing this is right out. Absolutely. If you can see that as part of the process, well, now we can start to like, okay, we know that thought's gonna come up. How about this time we don't follow it and we act as if it's untrue and let's see what happens. And over time. Time, sure enough, people start to recognize like maybe that wasn't right. Maybe my mom shouldn't have told me that. Maybe I shouldn't have been taught that about myself.

Josh Fletcher 22:07

So advocating for yourself. Absolutely, by the way. That is that is the biggest marker of self-esteem when you advocate for yourself. Yep. When you are your own defender and be like, you know, not defenders in being all to really defensive and attacking everyone and never holding yourself accountable. I mean, you know, standing up for yourself, you know, and be like, actually, do I have the compassion enough for myself to even consider reflecting on maybe there's a different perspective on this? Yeah. Also, I want to just touch on what people pleasing and self-esteem overlap. I of I often ask people, clients, whatever, even friends, you know, how do you measure your self-esteem? And again, I reiterate, go listen to the conditions of worth episode or introjections if you want to. But often, if you're someone who truly values their presence on earth as it being 100% validated through the eyes of others, through traits of being clever or funny or attractive or whatever, successful, then that will also get in the way of desensitizing. Because actually, no, you can you can be all those things if you want, but also you got to value the fact that actually it's also okay to be vulnerable. If I had a buck or a pound or a dinner for every time I heard, oh, I'm anxious, I don't want to show this my kids, then you're just gonna continue the cycle of prejudice and the steam-building blocks of anxiety disorders and anxiety that put kept you in this cycle. No, the best parent in the world is someone who shows a kid, look, look, I'm anxious, but I can still do stuff. And what's your kid gonna learn from that? Oh, my parent gets anxious but still does stuff, so it's okay for me to be anxious and still do stuff. Oh, wonderful. Not that you're you're not doing your kids um any favors by leaving the room every time you're anxious because they're not stupid. Do you know what I mean? Um, and I think that's uh something to just reflect upon.

Drew Linsalata 24:20

Yeah, I agree 100%. Well, we got like 22 minutes without uh uh did it anyway. So how about we play an audio?

Josh Fletcher 24:27

Yeah, yeah.

unknown 24:28

Hi Josh and Drew, this is Sarah from Georgia. You can use my name. I wanted to get on here and share my did it anyway. I've been struggling for the past seven or eight months with really, really intense anxiety, and it kind of took me by surprise, and I felt like my whole world was upside down and I didn't know what to do, and I started listening to your podcast, and it really changed my perspective on things. I've been working with a therapist, and that's really helped. But I have the whole feeling trapped on a flight fear, and it's funny because I used to make fun of people who were scared of going on planes, and I feel like that was karma, honestly. But anyway, I have had that for a while, and I lived overseas most of my life, so I thought my life was over. I was like, there's no way. Flying is a huge part of my life. My parents live overseas, and in the last two weeks, I have taken six total flights. Um, and I'm just so proud of myself. I just told myself to do what I would normally do on a flight. Before I was like trying to meditate the whole flight and trying to use calming oil. And this time I just ate my Cheez-Its, ate some gummy bears, and watched Crazy Rich Asians. And I made it through. I was anxious at some parts of the flight, but I just kept telling myself, okay, what if you keep watching this movie? What if you keep eating these gummy bears? And I did it anyway. And on the way back, we even had to make an emergency landing and stop in Memphis instead of Atlanta. And I felt fine, you know. And even when I was anxious, I kept going and I made it back home, and I was just so, so proud of myself. Thank you all for everything you do. Really enjoy the podcast. And yeah, thanks.

Josh Fletcher 26:26

Damn. So good, well done. You didn't think you could do it, and you did do it. And emergency landing in Memphis, and you're like, Yeah, I'm all good, I've got my Cheez Its. Um, I love the all the uh all the dinner anyways that just involve eating food.

Drew Linsalata 26:42

Gummy bears. How do you get better? Gummy bears, cheese its and crazy rich eight, crazy rich Asians, clearly. That's the formula right there. That Claire Weeks wrote about that, I think, in the 50s. Gummy bears. Price cemented kimchi. That's exactly right.

Josh Fletcher 26:54

Um we were yapping on for a little while, so I'm gonna follow up with another dinner anyway, which involves food. You ready? Oh, let's do it. Uh, this is I don't know if they gave me permission to use the name. Hey Josh and Drew, I sent in a question a couple of weeks ago asking about eating with panic and emetophobia. I'm sending this in on the 12th of August, and I'm sure you're aware that there is a solar eclipse tonight. Thought it went a bit dark. I feel so silly for saying this, but I'm extremely anxious at the thought of the world going dark for a couple of minutes. All my friends have been talking about how excited they are to see the eclipse. But I'm secretly terrified and feel sick thinking about it, which is obviously making me scared to eat because of the ematophobia. But I'm doing it anyway, and as I type this, I'm eating chicken strips. I'm terrified. I feel like I'm going to throw up at any second, but I'm eating it regardless because I'm not missing out on a takeaway. Hope you guys enjoyed the eclipse if you watched it. Wow. I'm I'm not missing out on a takeaway.

Drew Linsalata 28:00

Forget the eclipse. I don't want to miss the chicken strips.

Josh Fletcher 28:03

Values-driven exposures.

Drew Linsalata 28:06

Absolutely fried chicken is my value. I love it. I'm not missing a meal. And for emetophobes, chicken is public enemy number one in many instances, because we're all told, like, it's the thing that's going to kill you, Salmonella. Like got to wash your hands a million times. So good job. Like, win-win-win there.

Josh Fletcher 28:20

Oh, it's so good. Well done. And literally, that you're doing the golden rules there. You're doing anyway, willful tolerance, and and particularly for emetophobe, you know, often the stubborn lot. Yep. You know, you're like, no, I'm going to just do it and see what happens. Well done.

Drew Linsalata 28:33

Yeah. It's actually I was terrified I was going to get sick, but I I was eating anyway, because this is good. I'm missing out on this. I love the part where this thing is. And anxiety disorder will lit anxiety disorder is like time travel. It will literally transport you back like 2,000 years in human civilization. Like, oh, I hope the dragon in the sky gives the sun back. Like I was nervous about the earth going dark for a few minutes. You know, in retrospect, you'll look back and like, what was I thinking? You know, like actually the person said, I'm sorry, I was embarrassed to say, but like in the moment, that feels like a real fear. Like, uh so well done. Very well done. Love that one.

Josh Fletcher 29:07

I love that. That's really good. There's also no people pleasing in that.

Drew Linsalata 29:10

Let me my chicken spirits. Yeah. If I throw up on you, I throw up on you. What can I tell you? Here's a paper towel. So it's really great. But I so in these two little did it anyways, like that, people are having experiences that teach them. And so if people say, well, okay, well, what do I do about my people pleasing in my low self-esteem? You've got to have to like allow yourself to feel like you are doing it wrong and hurting people's feelings. And like, and I know that sounds risky, like, oh my God, I'm going to become the worst person ever doing exposures. No, you're not going to be. But you may have to work through the feeling that like I'm just the worst. Because you can't just decide. And while I'm a big fan of positive affirmations and like hype friends and like, yeah, you're the best, go get it. Love that. We can never just decide to see ourselves a different way. You can't do it. I dare you, right now. Just decide right now that you're awesome and your self-esteem will go right up.

Josh Fletcher 30:01

It just doesn't matter. It doesn't work. How did you do that?

Drew Linsalata 30:04

I am awesome.

Josh Fletcher 30:06

Yeah. So yeah, how do you fix this? Well, just I've suddenly grown a giant jaw on my shoulders and massive.

Drew Linsalata 30:13

So you gotta have, you know, like like all the other stuff we talk here about working through discomfort in the form of panic or OCD triggers or whatever it is. You gotta work through that discomfort too. And like, well, what if what if that tells me that, like, yeah, I really felt like I was horrible, but I I it doesn't seem to be other than inside of me. And what if I just let that feeling come and go and try acting like I'm not and see what I can learn from that? Because in the end, that's what you would have done as a kid. Like, if you would develop a positive self-esteem, you would have been allowed to fail and make mistakes and misbehave. And you know, your caretakers would have cheered for you and corrected you compassionately and helped you learn and and like showed you that you're worthwhile even when you're not performing at a high level. So you're gonna have to learn that.

Josh Fletcher 30:52

Well, well, well, well, we'd hope we'd hope that anyway.

Drew Linsalata 30:55

Right. So now that's you know, when you hear things like self-parenting, okay, well, you kind of got to do that now. You have to you have to teach yourself that now, and it's never too late, you can learn that. So yeah, yeah.

Josh Fletcher 31:05

Let's talk about exposures and people pleasing. What's some good exposures?

Drew Linsalata 31:10

People pleasing. So there's a tough one because you're if you have people pleasing, you know.

Josh Fletcher 31:15

Walk out your door and say F you to everything.

Drew Linsalata 31:17

Yeah, and it's funny because people in our comment section, our studio audience have been talking about one person said, I sometimes wonder when I agree to do an activity that someone asks me to do if I'm only doing it to please that person or if I really want to do it. Ah good sometimes saying no, like say now, and this isn't Instagram and TikTok, like stand in your truth, like don't be silent, set those boundaries. Yeah, a little bit. You have to experiment with that. I don't know if I really want to do this or not, so I'm gonna just say no, and then I'm gonna feel terrible that whole day thinking that I've offended my friends. But what if I act like I haven't? What if I just assume I haven't until they tell me I have?

Josh Fletcher 31:55

Yeah, or just speaking up sometimes, yeah. Like, you know, if someone like passionately and emotionally driven by an opinion, then you might be like, well, you can calmly be like, Well, I can see why, but I don't really see it like that. Yeah. For people, for people pleasers, that is the end of the world. They wouldn't say that. Disagree. Oh, I disagree with that.

Drew Linsalata 32:16

Well, all right.

Josh Fletcher 32:16

So the idea of doing that to someone is like, no, no, you can practice that's how you rewire the amygdala, and you do that. Like, this is why I'm doing it. And when you see that the world doesn't end, now don't get me wrong, there are exceptions. If you're in an abusive day, ship or in a dangerous situation, don't people please? That's exactly what that response is for. It keeps me safe to please this person, and then get out of that situation safely. But in general, if it's just learn behavior and you know rationally it's safe around you, then you can do that. You know, I know there's so many people pleasers out there, like um, particularly like group dynamics and stuff, and just going along with the flow, and often people with social anxiety, people pleasing low self-esteem, their brain likes to dumb the situation down. So they're in their own world and their own island, and everyone else in the scenario is part of the hive mind, and they're all thinking the same and feeling the same and feeling appropriate in the moment. No, it is not. You go into any social situation. I was at a festival the weekend, I don't know what people are thinking.

Drew Linsalata 33:18

No idea, right?

Josh Fletcher 33:18

I don't know what they're feeling. And you know, if you look statistically, anxiety disorders, probably loads of people probably compulsing, ruminating, sure, people pleasing, worrying, worrying about stuff at home. You'd have no idea, you know, and but again, remember that Craig the critic and your anxiety response will dumb stuff down to make it feel like you're the one with the problem and everyone else has got everything sorted, and that couldn't be further from the truth.

Drew Linsalata 33:43

That's a really good point. Like everybody else has it together, or they're in all in agreement, and I'm the I'm the island that disagrees. And oh my god, I can't believe I said my opinion, and now I'm gonna be like ostracized and they know that I'm terrible. So, what would that really look like if I were to say, Josh, we gotta have a serious talk? Like, I gotta tell you, beans on toast is ridiculous. Like, and you're like, see that like little oh that's he didn't say anything. Like he didn't smile, he didn't laugh at my beans on toast joke. Or what did you guys eat over there? Isn't it beans on toast? Why don't I see British people putting beans on bread of some kind?

Josh Fletcher 34:14

But like cost of living's oh hi knows was just toast or beans.

Drew Linsalata 34:17

We've taken away the beans off the toast. Beans or toast. But if I were to express that opinion or chips. Oh wow, time we're getting tough. Fish andor chips. And or yeah, so if I express an opinion and I have a self-esteem arm of people pleaser, and I notice that Josh didn't laugh at my joke, like my normal reaction would be, and this is where we do the RP part, I might spend all day long now looping and looping and like trying to remember what his face looked like and why didn't he laugh? And then maybe I'll send a text like, hey, what's going on, dude? Just to try and get some positive feedback. Or I would just have to act as if maybe he didn't like my beans on toast joke or didn't like me insulting British food. And I'll have to just go about my day anyway and bring that with me. What happens? Like what it was mid. It was mid, it was it was very mid. I really had to stretch for that one, by the way. It was a terrible joke.

Josh Fletcher 35:10

I I said this a very long time ago, probably years now, in the introjections episode. But it was um the the story of making people laugh, cracking jokes, which you just reminded me of, Drew. Um I remember being in therapy as a young adult, but growing up, and I couldn't get a lot of emo emotional stuff out of my father or stuff like that, and but I could make him laugh. And then that feeling was so powerful it made me feel like the most powerful person in the room. Uh so it wouldn't surprise you that I grew up to be the class clown or I was in trouble because my priority to get self-esteem was not to get good grades, because my father sucked at school, he didn't get good grades, but to my father, you know, making him laugh, getting something emotional out of him was really important. So then I would do the same and I'd be the class clown. And I was the class clown in school, high school, college, university, even went on to do stand-up uh when I was younger, and then one day when I was in time, I was like, I'm doing this because I see that making people laugh is so integral to my self-esteem. Because I'm genetically wired to adore my father, but that doesn't need to be that now. Now don't get me wrong, I'm still at all times at least seven out of ten funny, but I do it for me, you know. So if I don't make people laugh, rather than being like, oh my god, you know, I need to I need to make up, I need some new material, people need to accept me. I need so I can accept myself. It was it's more like they didn't laugh at that joke. Well, they must be intellectually inferior because that was a banging joke.

Drew Linsalata 36:43

Yeah. I mean, sometimes that like I'm gonna be the entertainer becomes a disarming or a safety thing, too. Like I've worked with people where they have recognized that, oh, my value, my self-esteem came from being told all the time I was the one that brought the sunshine into the room, I made everybody laugh, I was I was the bubbly one. Like, okay, but right now you have raging OCD and you're not very bubbly, so therefore your worth is gone, and that makes it so hard for that person. So yeah, or sometimes you know that entertaining humor deflects. That's a really good point, right?

Josh Fletcher 37:16

Because it kind of I never used to be my old self. You still are your old self. You just giving attention and fear towards this, yeah.

Drew Linsalata 37:24

There was a good comment too in our studio audience. I tend to believe that other people judge me as harshly as I judge myself. So, like you know, that's that whole if there's a social anxiety component, often people will think, oh well, it's low self-esteem, self- you know, you're shy, social anxiety, you don't want to be seen because you're shy. No, you don't want to be perceived often because it isn't about what people will judge you for. It's you are already judging yourself as deficient or defective, and you just don't want them to see it. That's it. Like it has nothing to do with they think, it's what you think about you.

Josh Fletcher 37:55

It's also a condition of worth as well. Uh one of my good men, Steve, he's always quiet on an IO. But it's just like, Okay, yeah, I'm shy, but I don't care. Like he's shy, but he doesn't really care. It's like I like being a shy one, I don't like gobbing off, you know. I'll just sit, I'll listen, I'll chill. I'm good. You know, it's interesting that he doesn't think that he's any less than anyone else, or better than him. He's just like, yeah, I'm shy. So what?

Drew Linsalata 38:21

If we're a person with low self-esteem who's a people pleaser, we'd be horrified by that. Like I'm bringing everybody down, everybody's laughing at right, and I'm ruining it for everybody. Meanwhile, everybody's just like, Yeah, that's just the way he is. We love him anyway. It's fine, it's cool.

Josh Fletcher 38:33

And everyone likes Steve. He just he just likes the quiet guy. You can't have too many, you know, too many loud people. It's it ruins the dynamic.

Drew Linsalata 38:42

Then you get disordered, a podcast about anxiety where both both of the hosts are the loud guy. It's not good. Oh man. Um, how about we do a did it anyway? Uh we'll do, I'll read one because this is a short one, but it's really great. It's from our our little distorted community. Uh, I won't say the person's name. Hi all. Uh, I posted a couple of months ago with one of my first Did It Anyways. I remember that day so clearly. My Did It Anyways was I walked through the yard to the garden, then stood in the yard in the shade and felt the warm breeze. That was it. At the time, that was all I could manage. I've been working on doing doing it anyway since then. I started therapy, got the all clear for my doctor. Well, today I went to my son's football game. A little ruminating-y at first. Love that, uh, a little anxious, but I cheered so loud when he made a beautiful pass. Later, I did over an hour of yard work. Then two months ago, I wouldn't have dared get my heart rate up and sweat in this heat. Then I made dinner. All normal life things that seemed impossible not that long ago. Sometimes I was anxious, sometimes I wasn't, but it was fine either way. What I thought was going to be a hard day turned out to be a huge win for me.

Josh Fletcher 39:52

I love that. Yep. Well done. Felt impossible.

Drew Linsalata 39:55

Turns out it wasn't. And what is the lesson of do it anyway in exposure? What I thought was one way turned out to be another. I thought it was incapable, thought it'll be too much. Nope.

Josh Fletcher 40:06

So good. I love that. Really good one. Like I said, there's no, yeah, you know, we have to do it anyways about flying on planes and doing all that stuff, but that's just as big. Yeah. Love that.

Drew Linsalata 40:15

Went to a football game, made dinner, did some gardening. Yeah, cool.

Josh Fletcher 40:17

Yeah, which which I couldn't didn't think I could do. So well done.

Drew Linsalata 40:20

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 40:20

You know, that I think that's really lovely. And again, your values and doing what non-anxious you would do.

unknown 40:25

Yep.

Josh Fletcher 40:25

Superb. Um, interesting. I often think my panic attacks are actually shame attacks because they get worse thinking about what others will think of me if I lose control. What a comment. Yeah, that comes up so much.

Drew Linsalata 40:39

Especially when you find in the end, like when you're dealing with this sort of stuff, we're always trying to teach people, no, no, no, let go, fully let go, completely let go of that rope. You gotta let yourself fall into what feels like the endless pit. And sometimes it's no, but if I let go, I will actually die or go crazy. But often it I can't, I cannot afford to let go because then that everybody's gonna see it laid bare, and I will make a scene and they will they will see me as broken. So that is a it's not always about insanity or barrier.

Josh Fletcher 41:10

That isn't it's also a privilege. Like I was don't get me wrong, I was afraid what people thought, but I didn't think that I would be judged for it. And I think that's a now looking back is a privilege that you and I had, Drew.

unknown 41:24

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 41:25

Whereas I think some people, when they've had tricky upbringings or tricky surroundings to let go, often the threat response will try to protect you then because maybe the people around you are not so compassionate or will add to your feelings of discomfort with genuine discomfort evoking behaviors.

Drew Linsalata 41:44

It's not always just what you learned in the past, it could be the environment you're in right now. You still may be among unkind people or abusive people, and they gotta take that into account. Like it's not okay, I can't let go. I have to keep it under wraps.

Josh Fletcher 41:56

Absolutely, yeah. Completely. Uh that's why I was stand by. It's very hard to desensitize when you are in a tricky situation or abusive relationship, stuff like that, because that's you're trying to turn down your threat response. But if you're in an abusive, volatile situation or living situation, then your threat response isn't you don't want to turn it off. That's right. It never don't get me wrong, you're having panic attacks in the shower, but it can't distinguish between Nope. Doesn't know. But when I get out of the shower and go into the kitchen, the actual threat. And then you're like, Well, I'm trying to desensitize in the shower, but I'm in the kitchen, and then the brain's like, Well, yeah, that's doing its job.

Drew Linsalata 42:32

And then you never get that like emotional processing theory thing where like it goes up and down, it goes up and down. No, no, no, it never goes down. So, like you do in exposure, you there is no did it anyway, because when I come back to the house or back into my environment, it never tails off. I don't get the tail end of that. So we got to take that into account, right? It's a it's a thing. I've always been shocked at the number of people who are in very tricky situations, maybe dangerous, unkind, or abusive situations, where when that situation ends, maybe there's an addicted partner or an abusive partner who then leaves or or is forced to leave or something. And they feel like, oh my God, because that was also my safe person. That's the person who took care of me, which is a like no-win situation to be in. And they figure this is the end of me, but it actually turns out to be like the best thing.

Josh Fletcher 43:16

The beginning of you.

Drew Linsalata 43:17

Yes, the beginning of you, right? Because now suddenly they can do it, did it anyway, and notice that, like, oh, by seven o'clock tonight, I'm not on eggshells all day long. I'm not being poked at all day long. Oh, yeah, look at that. I can actually handle this.

Josh Fletcher 43:29

So and you learn that you swim, not sink. Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Drew Linsalata 43:33

And you don't maybe have somebody anymore telling you that you're sinking constantly.

Josh Fletcher 43:37

Yeah. Uh there's another another point about people pleasing before I'm just aware just aware of the time. Uh just aware of the time. Um but it's uh another point about people pleasing is that those with a fear of loneliness, rejection, and abandonment. My God, you are people pleasers. Yeah, you know, something's better than nothing. No, it isn't. Yeah, you know, I judge judge the Room on how kind it is. Is that room kinder with just you in it? As opposed to the people in it that aren't very kind? Something is better than that.

Drew Linsalata 44:09

Yeah, that's that's a tough one to deal with, right?

Josh Fletcher 44:11

Yeah, it really is. Also the belief that you won't cope. There's a difference between being lonely and on your own, too. I love being on my own, but I never feel lonely, you know, and I am very selective with the people in my life. Um because, you know, I choose people that respect and and and and have good haircuts.

Drew Linsalata 44:34

Does that mean this is the last look at my hair today? Like that's okay. Sorry, last episode of disorder, Josh can't hang out with me anymore. Oh god.

Josh Fletcher 44:42

You're a beautiful, funny, amazing person, but that haircut, sorry, you don't make the club.

Drew Linsalata 44:47

Yep, you are out. I'm setting some new boundaries starting with your hair.

Josh Fletcher 44:53

Oh goodness. Something that your hair failed to do instead of boundaries.

Drew Linsalata 44:57

Your hair is doing something to me, right? That's a problem.

Josh Fletcher 45:02

I know, I know I've been talking about people pleasing is bad, but please, please please me at this point. Yeah, I got it. I get it.

Drew Linsalata 45:09

That has been, I think, maybe since we met. The one constant has been hair jokes. Hair jokes from the lockdown when nobody can get a haircut, and the hair jokes were just always flowing. They're never gonna end. So you're welcome, everybody. Tune in next week for more.

unknown 45:22

God.

Drew Linsalata 45:23

Have we got any more did anyways so we wrap it up? We have another. We have an audio. Sure, we can play it. It's it's a good one. So let's hear it.

Josh Fletcher 45:28

Yeah, let's end, let's end on the did it anyway.

unknown 45:30

Hi, my name is Catherine. You can use my name. I wanted to share my did it anyway. So, for some background, about three months ago, I started having debilitating panic attacks. And ever since then, the panic attacks have kind of stopped, but I've had intense residual uh anxiety and just constantly being in fight or flight. So, one of the places that my anxiety gets the worst, and I get panic attacks for some reason is restaurants. So naturally I've been avoiding going to restaurants, which is difficult because it's a big part of my social life. It's something my husband and I like to do. Um, so I had a friend recently reach out asking if we could go to dinner. I hadn't seen this friend in over a decade, and I really wanted to see her. But of course, I had, you know, a lot of trepidation about going to a restaurant and potentially having a panic attack in front of somebody I haven't seen in, again, over a decade. Um, but I did it anyway. I listened to your podcast on the way there, and I had, you know, some discomfort at the restaurant, but it was what it was. I dealt with it and had a really, really great time, and I'm so happy that I didn't let fear dictate my life for once. Feels like a huge step. But something else that I really enjoyed was that on the way home, I listened to music instead of your podcast. And as much as I love your podcast, non-anxious me would listen to music on the subway ride home. So it was nice to have a night of feeling somewhat normal again. So just wanted to share because it felt like a huge accomplishment, and that's in a huge part because of you guys. So thank you for all that you do.

Drew Linsalata 47:16

Bye-bye. I love it when they don't listen.

Josh Fletcher 47:21

I I I love it when they take on board what we say and apply it. Yeah. And I love it, and also Catherine deserves a Billy Mays.

Drew Linsalata 47:30

Oh, 100%, right? Did I get it right? But I'm not done yet. Yeah, there you go.

Josh Fletcher 47:34

Yeah, I'll go out for dinner. Of course I'll do, I'll tolerate you did it really well. Yep. And you know what? What would non-extrust me do now? I'll listen to something, I'll listen to music. And I love that. Well done. Well done. You know, you're doing well when you don't need us. You can tune in now and then as and when, but you don't need us. We we're not getting you to the restaurant.

Drew Linsalata 47:53

You're getting yourself to the restaurant. 100%. You know you're getting better when you don't have to listen to disorder, you can go back to true crime, unsolved, gruesome murder mystery podcasts.

Josh Fletcher 48:02

Oh, yeah. I I should be able to do that. My favorite thing as a therapist, one of my favorite things, I've got loads of favorite things as a therapist, but for the end, is uh getting people with like dementiophobia, uh fear of losing their mind.

unknown 48:13

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 48:14

And then they desensitize, then they go back to Yeah, I'm going back to watching people losing their mind because of it.

Drew Linsalata 48:21

100%. Shutter Island. I'm gonna watch all the crazy movies again. And you and it's cool, they could do it again.

Josh Fletcher 48:26

It's really nice, so no, it's really cool. If you haven't did it anywhere, you can send it over at disorder.fm. If you want to be part of the studio audience and have access to a wealth of resources and workshops and round tables, the next round table is tomorrow. Oh no, there'll be one the day before.

Drew Linsalata 48:45

Oh, yeah, the two days before you listen to this was a round table.

Josh Fletcher 48:49

We do them every two, three weeks. I mean, you pay what you're 20 bucks, you've got uh endless resources, you've got uh join the the the uh the studio audience. You can post it did it anyways. You've got articles, you've got loads of stuff, and if you want to, you can. Nothing hidden in there, nothing new, but if you know you want to feel like more focused and have some cheerleaders, then you can. Um, yeah, and yeah, send and keep sending any questions anyways can follow us on social media. If you have health anxiety, we highly recommend the Disordered Guide to Health Anxiety book by Disorder Press, which you can find on Amazon. Uh anything else, Drew?

Drew Linsalata 49:24

No, I think that's it. Future topic, by the way, along people pleasers. We should make a note of this. You don't have to please your therapist. We could do a whole episode on that.

Josh Fletcher 49:32

Oh, do not please your therapist. No. Maybe that'll be episode one seventy-one. Yeah.

unknown 49:37

All right. All right. Next week we'll do that again.

Drew Linsalata 49:40

We're out of