Cognitive Reframing in Anxiety Disorders (Episode 176)

Josh Fletcher 0:01

So today we're going to take some of the most posit like common phrases that we hear in this community, and we're going to cognitively reframe them. Oh, I started spiraling. I'm afraid of spiraling.

Drew Linsalata 0:14

Reframe is just like just shift a little bit like to the left or right and just look at it in a different angle. So, you know, so you can see a little bit differently. You know, the reframe might be, well, I noticed that I want to do things that might fuel this spiral. Is it are you spiraling or are you just really afraid and trying to feel better?

Josh Fletcher 0:30

Reframe the situation to what the actual goal is is desensitizing.

Drew Linsalata 0:34

What if this happens is an attempt to find an answer that says it won't happen. But your brain has already decided it's going to happen, by the way. It's already decided. Too late. So I reframe what if to just tell me what it is you're afraid of. I've been resensitized, or I'm in a setback, or I'm back to square one, or are you just doing it again?

Josh Fletcher 0:53

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 176, entitled Cognitively Reframing the Narrative. My name is Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist based in Manchester in the UK. Talk all things anxiety, had many, multiple anxiety disorders in the past. Uh live a content, happy life now. Uh, write books on it, yap about it, and uh really passionate about giving the right, correct, helpful advice for people struggling with anxiety. And I'm joined by my esteemed co-host.

Drew Linsalata 1:27

I'm Drew Linsolata. I am also a therapist that treats anxiety and anxiety disorders. Except I'm in New York. Also had multiple. I had more anxiety disorders than you. How many do you have? I had more than you. We're gonna just count our disorders today. Anyway, same thing. I've written books on this topic, clearly host of a co-host of this podcast. I also host The Anxious Truth. And yeah, so one of my most fun hours of the week was when we get to talk about this stuff. So cognitive reframing. This was your idea. So what are you thinking?

Josh Fletcher 1:54

I love a cognitive reframe straight from the CBT handbook. If anyone struggles with anxiety and stuff like that, find all the common things Craig the Critic might say, or what anxiety says about you. Is Craig with us today? He's always here. It's Craig the Critic.

Drew Linsalata 2:10

We have a studio audience and he's always in it.

Josh Fletcher 2:13

Yeah, he's there. And often people with anxiety, they see anxiety or they get triggered, and the symptoms come and it gets in the way of what you know of life and whole how they'd experience it if they weren't anxious, and then that suddenly is a bad thing. But in this community, we're in a sensitized state, and our aim is to desensitize from anxiety and some of the thoughts, the symptoms, and the uncertainty it throws at you. So today we're going to take some of the most positive common phrases that we hear in this community, and we're going to cognitively reframe them. If you would like to take a pen and paper, and uh and if any apply to you, then you know we can do that. You know, it's not just me and Drew talking about oh, this is how you get better. No, it's like, yeah, let's do some actionable stuff. I love a cognitive reframe. Uh, my first one is, and we'll just start. Do you want to just do a back and forth like the Williams sisters? Absolutely. The Williams sisters, yeah, let's do it. Bag Z Venus. Uh, and um do a back and forth. Uh, I'll start with the most common phrase. And if anyone in the studio audience uh wants to pop in with the most common phrases that their anxiety throws at you, then yeah, we might read them out. Uh okay. The first one is Oh, I started spiraling. I'm afraid of spiraling. Uh what how would you reframe that, Drew? To not change it, but just to reframe it so it kind of empowers the person instead.

Drew Linsalata 3:39

I might reframe, and a reframe is just like just shift a little bit like to the left or right and just look at it in a different angle. So, you know, so you can see a little bit differently. So I'm afraid of spiraling. I would probably say, you know, can I reframe that as like I'm really uncomfortable right now, and and that makes me scared. And that would be my reframe, right?

Josh Fletcher 3:56

Yeah, one of my favorites is yeah, some spirals go up, or spiral like, um, yeah, now you can learn. Here's an opportunity to teach yourself that you can cope with spirals. Yeah, because when you think, oh, uh lots of people with anxiety think, oh, I'm really triggered and it gets to the point where I'll lose control. No, you can learn that even while I'm spiraling, I can cope, I can tolerate it. So the word spiral suggests to your brain, oh, I'm not in control, but you're not, you know, people often pay for the waltzers, you know, to do that. Do you have waltzers in the US or is it a UK thing?

Drew Linsalata 4:32

Oh, it doesn't sound familiar. Is that the name of a retail establishment?

Josh Fletcher 4:35

Fairground, it's a fairground ride where you sit in a giant cup and they spin you around, then that spins around, and there's really loud music, and it has the you know, health and safety record of a roller coaster built out of melting chocolate. Um, but but yeah, no, it's great. Uh yeah, you can learn to spiral. What a great way to reframe it. What would you say?

Drew Linsalata 4:58

Um, yeah, I would think in that situation, the spiral is, you know, the reframe might be, well, I I noticed that I want to do things that might fuel this spiral. You know, can you notice that you want to do a bunch of stuff that thrashes against the experience? Like, is it are you spiraling or are you just really afraid and trying to feel better?

Josh Fletcher 5:17

Yeah. Yeah, it's a spiral. What about a common phrase that you hear?

Drew Linsalata 5:21

Um, well, I'm gonna go right to the number one. Like, we would normally do like the top 40 and end with number one. I think the number one, because it's in our our studio audience, is what if? What if and insert whatever? I don't care what it is, what if? And how might you frame a what if thought?

Josh Fletcher 5:35

Yeah. And it's what a what if a good thing happens or what if a bad thing happens?

Drew Linsalata 5:39

What if anything? What if anything happens, really? Like, what if it's you know, what if I uh what if I actually go insane? What if this actually makes me insane?

Josh Fletcher 5:48

Yeah, what okay, so so what if this makes me insane? Because we don't want to conflate it with there was this it's really annoying being a therapist on um social media because there are people who aren't therapists on social media that pretend they are, like Mel Robbins. And there was a really uh well-watched video called The Five Words to Defeat Anxiety, and she says, What if it all works out? I'm like, wow, oh my god. You know, I've got to 37 years old, and I never really thought my rational cognitive brain just needed Mel Robbins to tell me what if it all works out alongside a protein supplement she's probably selling. Uh, there we go. Thank you, Mel. Uh, what if it all works out? But to the credit, it is an example of a cognitive reframe. So, in in this community, it's like, okay, what if the bad thing happens? What if I have a heart attack? Whatever. But to reframe that, it's what if it doesn't happen? And here's an opportunity for me to practice uncertainty. I feel uncertain right now, and I've probably had this thought a thousand times before. The likelihood is it's not gonna happen. So I'm gonna try and see how well I deal with uncertainty. Yeah, you can reframe the situation to what the actual goal is is desensitizing. Or we can subscribe to the narrative of I've completely over anxiety when I have no symptoms, no scary thoughts, no no, it's about you practicing when you are uncertain. Yeah.

Drew Linsalata 7:17

My my what if I have one what if reframe. I'm a one-trick prony when it comes to what if. Because I I'm not a fan of the whole like, well, what if a good thing happens? Well, what if, you know, or what if I crash and burn? Oh, but dear, what if you fly? Like you're an anxious mind isn't interested in the good part. So when somebody says to me, what if, I I offer the reframe, well, just tell me what you're afraid of. Like, what if uh what if I have a psychotic break? Okay, well, just well, tell me what you're afraid of. Well, I'm afraid to have a psychotic break. Okay, so that's it. Just say that. You don't have to ask what if, because then you'll try to answer it. So I try to take the what if question and reframe it as a statement. I fear that. And then from there we can move on to like, oh, we're not gonna try to answer the question because you you what if this happens is an attempt to find an answer that says it won't happen. But your brain has already decided it's gonna happen, by the way. It's already decided too late. It's the elephant and the rider thing, right? From the that book. Yeah. And I think so I reframe what if to just tell me what it is you're afraid of. Oh, I'm afraid of forgetting my kids, or I'm afraid that I accidentally cheated on my partner, or I'm afraid of self-harm. Okay, and and now what does that make you want to do? Oh, it makes me want to like be sure that it won't happen. Okay, now we're getting somewhere. So yeah, yeah, it's the after. Yeah, just frame it as what I'm a skate of. What I'm afraid of. Listen, a skate of. I just made a word.

Josh Fletcher 8:29

Someone in the audience said one of my favorite reframes came from Drew. Oh no to oh well.

Drew Linsalata 8:34

Yeah, yeah.

Josh Fletcher 8:36

Yeah, that's true. Oh, oh well, oh well.

Drew Linsalata 8:40

Oh dang. Very wholesome. Oh, darn it. Uh, you know, another one that we tend to use around here, it's the you know, oh well to oh, yeah, it's oh god to oh well. That is true. But uh one thing that we've been starting to use around here a little bit more in the community is I'm doing it again. So when people say I've been resensitized, I might offer, I've been resensitized, or I'm in a setback, or I'm back to square one, I offer, or are you just doing it again? And I'm like, what do you mean I'm doing it again? Am I are you blaming me? Are you victim? No, no, no, no. What I mean by that is what does it mean to be resensitized or back to square one or in a setback? It means you just decided that the old way, the fighting, the thrashing, the running, the avoiding, the compulsing was was the right way again because you got scared enough to choose that. Oh, yeah, I'm doing it again. Okay, cool. So what do we do now?

Josh Fletcher 9:27

Yeah, here's one from the community. What if I lose progress if I get really scared for an extended period of time? Oh, that's a common one. What if I lose progress? What is progress? Reframe what progress is. That's it. Yeah, if you're judging progress on going a long time without being anxious, you're not using the correct mark scheme. The reframe for that is it's not what if I lose progress and get really scared for an extended period of time. It's how how good am I at bouncing back when I get scared?

Drew Linsalata 9:59

Yeah, exactly. That's the reframe there. The reframe is a good reframe.

Josh Fletcher 10:03

You can have that one for free. Absolutely. There we go.

Drew Linsalata 10:05

I hope you guys have your notepads and you're taking notes. Or a number two pencil. Does anybody ever do we need number two pencils anymore? It used to be a thing. What's that? Yeah, you take a test, you fill in the bubbles, and then that's how they score the test. No, I don't remember that. Wow, okay. It's really difficult. Um, yeah, so anyway, uh, yeah, that that's a good one. I like it. Like it uh reframe how you the reframe on what if I but what if it comes back, or what if I have a setback, or what if I lose all my progress is well, yeah, tell me, tell me what that means. What does progress mean? So uh I love that. Here's one of my favorite ones. Favorite uh what if in the chat is what if I wake up tomorrow and I look like Henry Cavill? Thoughts my anxious mind never has. Hey, if it happens, then you know I'm gonna go for some casting calls or something, but definitely. But yeah, I get it.

Josh Fletcher 10:53

Yeah, yeah, this is one of those, and it's always reframe what it is, but also it's not just about the anxiety. Think about the life isn't all about anxiety disorder. So here's a challenge for you, Drew. What if I'm a burden to my family? How could you reframe that? Well, I would what if my anxiety feels make me what if my anxiety means I'm a burden to my family?

Drew Linsalata 11:13

Yeah, I think I would offer a reframe, it depends on what the person has been going through and how what I know about them, but one of them might be, well, you know, let's let's let's look at this from a different angle. What would make what would make you see yourself as a burden? Why would you draw that conclusion about yourself? Because otherwise the reframe is no, no, I am a burden if I'm anxious and that's it. It's just a statement of fact. So the reframe for me is something makes you feel that way. What is it? That's one yeah.

Josh Fletcher 11:35

Me being anxious is burdening my family. And my reframe is I'm currently anxious and I'm trying to get better for my family. Same thing. Love it. Both truth. Sure. It's just a reframe. Yeah, you're coming at it from a slightly different angle. It's like taking a selfie, but from the belly button height. No one likes those pictures. So you just move the selfie up in the perfect light, it's hiding your chin and neck, and suddenly you look like Henry Cavill. It's the same thing, it's not changing your face, it's not changing what's happening, it's just offering a different perspective. But semantics are so powerful, yeah. You know, yeah, I am struggling at the moment, but I'm trying. It's also truth. Or you could go with the Craig the Critic truth. That's his opinion of what's happening, but then the cognitive reframe is how can I take this really pervasive um barrier to being nice to myself? We bang on about compassion, and people are like, How do I be compassionate? This is a good way to do it. Yeah, find all those critic things and just do a subtle reframe. Write them down if you have to. Yeah, you know, like, oh, I'm doing this, I'm useless. No, I'm trying. Same thing. I'm trying to be better. I'm trying to what what a lovely thing to do. And it's less definitive because nothing is definitive. Well, humans are always changing. Oh, shut up.

Drew Linsalata 12:56

No, you're you're right. Well, humans are always changing. Somebody said, Well, what if nothing ever changes? You know, so a lot of the folks in the chat are are are throwing out what if questions. And the reframe again is just like, okay, well, some things don't change, but most things do change. Like, uh, I might often I use, you know, my it's interesting now that we're having this conversation, my reframes are just often challenges. I'll just ask you to restate the question. I won't give you the reframe, I will challenge you to redefine it so that you find your own reframe. I didn't even know I was doing that until just now. Like, okay, well, give give me an example of something that has never changed. Can you give me something that has never changed in your life ever?

Josh Fletcher 13:29

Yeah. The most powerful reframe, one of my favorites in this community, is I went to the family barbecue and I was anxious. My favorite reframe, and all of what I do is I went to the barbecue despite being anxious.

Drew Linsalata 13:46

Yeah, that's a good one too. That's a good one too.

Josh Fletcher 13:48

I went to the barbecue with anxiety. Oh yeah, I like that. You went to the barbecue and you got anxious. Craig the critic. I went to the barbecue despite feeling anxious. I'm desensitizing. Yeah. Soap, same fact. Just different way of looking at it. That's where we get all therapy and stuff. That's where those online grifters and coaches kind of do it. Following my 12-step program.

Drew Linsalata 14:17

And I think one of the things that's interesting, I think, and then I want to do an audio did it anyway, because I got one queued up, but I one of the things that happens with cognitive reframing is, and I always find this interesting. We talked about it before. A lot of therapists who even understand that the sort of stuff that we do, it really is the most effective way to deal with an anxiety disorder, won't do it because it makes them uncomfortable to you know make people uncomfortable. We're encouraging people to intentionally be uncomfortable. Many therapists don't want to do that. That's fine. You don't have to do that. We'll do it. But they will fall back on this technique, the cognitive reframe. They will they invariably in the counseling research, we see, well, I will always want to fall back to do things like cognitive reframing or challenging their thoughts and doing thought records like old school CBT. So cognitive reframing is really cool, but you see how we're using it? Never to change your thought into something different, only to look at the thought from a different angle that doesn't have the negative catastrophic bias.

Josh Fletcher 15:10

Always what's the compassion? Yes. How can you see this through compassion? Yeah, I agree. I I agree, right? So no one in this community will look at someone else who's having a panic attack and go, You're pathetic, you're a burden. That's true. And yet for some reason, when it happens to them, it's like, oh no. Yeah, the way I see it is definitely the object truth. If it happens to me, the rules change. No, you're just seeing things through the wrong lens. So a cognitive refrain in this community is actually to do with compassion to do the tricky thing. It's nothing to do with getting rid of a feeling, it's to build momentum, it's to keep it going, it's to do all those things, you know. Um, otherwise, you won't get momentum. You'll go out, you have a panic attack in the park, an adrenaline rush, which was the homework. Yep. And you're like, no, I'm still panicking, I'm failing. Right. No, I went to the park and a reframe and I managed to practice with panic. Yeah. Good. I'm gonna do it again. Someone in the uh in the audience, sorry, do you someone in the audience said yesterday I had what I'm assuming a panic attack while on the treadmill. My heart went from 120 to 170, so naturally started to panic. Came back down after 20 minutes. My work, my worst fear is heart related. Today we get back on the treadmill and do it anyway. Love that.

Drew Linsalata 16:26

And you know, I think that would kind of if you want to put a reframe into that for this person who did that, along the path to that moment where I'm getting back on the treadmill. I didn't get off, I finished, blah, blah, blah. Is oh my god, I got on the treadmill and my heart rate went up to 170 and it was terrible. Or the reframe would be you were on the treadmill doing something scary and you encountered a very scary thing and you bravely saw it through. It's the same exact thing, except we want to look at it from this way, and that will maybe get you on the treadmill to do it again tomorrow. If you if you land on the first one, then you ain't get back on the treadmill. You're you're you're telling it, you're you're putting your clothes over it, and it's just a hanger.

Josh Fletcher 17:01

So Yeah, well, it sounds like one of the most famous, not favorite the most popular things that the clients said to me over the years is well, it sounds better when you say it.

Drew Linsalata 17:12

Well, you start saying it. That's a hundred percent true. Like, okay, then borrow my words. Say it the way you might say it. Like, experiment with that. It's okay, you're allowed to do that, you know.

Josh Fletcher 17:20

So the way you say it sucks. It isn't working. Well, you can't drill sergeant your way out of something that requires compassion. Yeah, um, here's another one. This is one of my ones, this one. My favorite reframe is panic attack. No, adrenaline rush. Yes. Sure. That's exactly right. I love it. I love it.

Drew Linsalata 17:36

The person who got playing on the treadmill says, I'm now taking my towels off my treadmill. Yeah, I know. We all have a treadmill that has the clothing draped over it. We get it. So uh how about we hear from the community? We have a pretty cool, like, health anxiety-related did it anyway. So let's hear it.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Hi, my name is Caitlin, and I wanted to share a I did it anyway. Uh, I'm someone who suffers really badly from health anxiety, um, and at times can be quite debilitating. Uh recently, in the last four months, I've been suffering really badly from migraines. Um, going back to the doctor over and over, being given medication, and not taking the medication. Um, because something I really struggle with is the fear of having an allergic reaction or a terrible side effect from a med medication. But uh that is also from reading Reddit over and over and over for hours, and I'm sure lots of people do the same. But I'm proud to say that I did take one of my tablets, um the one that that I had been reading about for hours, um, people saying you know it ruined their lives, killed their whole family, etc. And I didn't have any bad side effects, and actually it helped. So I think this is just a reminder to those who also fear medication to stop Googling it, stop going on Reddit. Um I have deleted the app from my phone and I'm genuinely just going to try and be cold turkey for as much as I can. Um it can be very difficult to have health anxiety and also real physical illness at the same time, but I'm just trying to sit with the uncertainty. I don't know if it is migraine or if it's gonna kill me, um, but what is the point in thinking about it every second of every day? So uh this is just a shout-out to those who are also suffering from the same thing. Um, get off of Reddit. Thank you for time. Bye.

Drew Linsalata 19:39

It's really good. Reddit, man.

Josh Fletcher 19:45

Yeah, Reddit, Reddit and AI are not anxiety disorders first. Reddit was was a hole I used to go down quite a lot. Um, but that was a good did it anyway, wasn't it? I love that.

Drew Linsalata 19:56

It's scary doing something new, all that uncertainty. I know, loved it, and like I read about it for hours, and everybody said it ruined their life and killed their whole family. Like, I don't know. I took this this migraine medication in California, broke off into the Pacific Ocean. So uh terrible. That stuff should be illegal.

Josh Fletcher 20:12

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. Um, really good visit, and thanks for sharing that. There's a reframe on that one, by the way.

Drew Linsalata 20:19

I'm gonna point out a reframe. She said, Yeah, maybe this'll kill me. Okay. That I I get it. Health anxiety is you're a little bit fixated on something terrible will happen. But what's the point of thinking about it every minute of every day? Ah, love it. Yeah, I'm really scared for my health all the time. But also, there might be no point in in making that the most important thing in the room all the time. There's your reframe.

Josh Fletcher 20:42

Do you think there's a coincidence that we've never had a did it anyway from an estate agent or someone trying to sell a house? The realtors and stuff like that, because they're so good at reframes. Oh, you know, it's just like you know, that they're trying to this bathroom, the toilets on the wall, you can't even fit in there. And they're like, it's cozy.

Drew Linsalata 21:03

Is it true that a family of eight was brutally slaughtered in here? Well, it's full of local color and history. It's history.

Josh Fletcher 21:11

Yeah, yeah, it's like it's uh the kitchen's like half the walls burnt and there's rust everywhere. It's rustic. It's rustic.

Drew Linsalata 21:20

It's authentic. It's a this sort of authentic space to live your life in.

Josh Fletcher 21:24

So yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Become a mistake agent. They would be the best thing. I love it, man. Really good. Um, I like this. It's hard to get to the point where a panic attack is from the audience. It's hard to get to the point where a panic attack is reframe is reframed as an opportunity to practice willful tolerance and rewire. Yeah, I mean, it's hard. Yeah, but that's the important reminder for me when I'm tempted to resort back to old behaviors and avoids. Very good. And that is exactly the audience member, is what I did. Yeah. Like sometimes you get to the stage where you get bigger windows and you feel like Yourself. You know, and you often hear this like on forums in the community, like, I'm 90% recovered. No, that's why I don't use the word recovery. And like, I'm having bigger windows where I don't feel sensitized. Great, it's cool. But you might get, odds are, you might get an adrenaline rusher or panic again. You know, uh, I do probably maybe once a year. I'll get an adrenaline rusher, I don't know, old pathways, whatever. Yeah. Uh, but even then, audience member, I would be like, ooh, you know, let's let's let's dust off the jacket and see how that willful tolerance gets on, you know. Like it's not, oh no, it's back, I've got wrong, or I still use that old reframe, like, okay, let's let's see if I can practice my willful tolerance. Now it feels harder because I'm out of practice. Nah, it's fine. Crap on with it.

Drew Linsalata 22:46

I think there's a reframe before that reframe. For me, it's like I knew I I have to acknowledge, I knew this was gonna happen at some point. Like, I know it's gonna happen. So, like, oh no, I was doing so great, and then you know, I had a really hard day. Okay, and and you know, can you consider the possibility that you had a hard day? Because everybody has a hard day sometimes, like even the people with the expensive microphones and the cameras that have the anxiety podcast are gonna have a hard day and get hooked by the old shit for a couple of minutes or an hour. And okay, I knew that was gonna happen. And now I get to practice again my old stuff.

Josh Fletcher 23:18

So do you remember when we were playing Satisfactory online? We're playing a co-op game, yeah. And you were like, Oh my god, I feel I feel like I'm having an adrenaline rush.

Drew Linsalata 23:28

And then what what was my response to legitimately the worst reframe in the history of the universe? I said, I think I'm having a panic attack. And Josh immediately said, Is it possible that you should just believe every thought your mind makes right now? Like that was the biggest all those thoughts are real, all those thoughts are realings of warnings you are about to die. Wow, that was the worst reframe ever. Just saying.

Josh Fletcher 23:52

I don't do that in my practice, bro.

Drew Linsalata 23:54

No, he reserves it for his friends for sure. It was uh it was a thing. It's somebody who just said she found out about this podcast on Reddit while searching anxiety. All right, well, maybe Reddit ain't so bad.

Josh Fletcher 24:07

Yep, the reframe. Uh uh would you like another did it anyway?

Drew Linsalata 24:10

Sure, let's hear it.

Josh Fletcher 24:13

Okay, here we go. Um I don't think they've given permission to use their name, but it's lovely. Um I've had general anxiety that turned into health anxiety off and on since high school. Currently I'm 68. Sometimes I've gone years with nothing more than typical anxious moments. Other times it goes on for weeks or months. No panic tactile. I have a wonderful therapist who has helped with many other things along with tracking down the roots of some other anxiety, but not in managing the anxiety, health anxiety itself. Health anxiety usually comes after something happens around me or to me, and I see it and I know it. No one around me other than my husband knows or would even guess. On the outside, I am calm and collected. When these periods happen, it goes on for weeks under the cool exterior. It always has always been better when I am at work. I've worked with profoundly autistic, seriously, um uh kids with behavioral issues and adults for decades, and I kind of lose myself in my in my work with them. Right now, I'm headed towards eventual retirement. What I am saying is that I've done a version of a did it anyway because it seemed like the only choice. What I have learned from your podcasts and books is to do it anyway with intention, and it has made all the difference. Ironically, I teach mindfulness in yoga with intentional doing it anyway. It dissolves in a much shorter time, and the confidence that gives is life-changing. Thank you so much for all that you do.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

Oh, I love it.

Josh Fletcher 25:53

It's really nice that one as well. And you could you can factor in kind of some anxiety, disorder-informed mindfulness in yoga.

Drew Linsalata 26:00

Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, that's that's what yoga actually is. Like just paying attention moment by moment. That that's it. Yeah. I love the intention. Like doing it anyway with intention. Yeah, probably one of the most important. There's a reframe for you right there. Like, oh, do it anyway. You know, well, oh, I I do it anyway, but nothing is changing. Well, are are you doing it anyway with intention? Like, what's your intention when you do it anyway? Oh, yeah. Is it possible that you're doing it anyway, but also just trying to push through it until you get done with doing it anyway?

Josh Fletcher 26:32

Yeah, yeah. Really good, really good one though. Here's another reframe.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 26:37

Um why is this happening to me? You know, why did this have to happen to me? Why did this have to happen to me? I something I used to say a lot. And now I'm like, I'm glad that happened to me so I could learn about myself and all the things that have happened as a result of it has made me a more grounded, mature, and happier person. Yeah. Genuinely sold up. And there's some people that listen to that, be like, shut up, Josh. Smug, you don't know, but waking up with intrusive thoughts and panicking in the car, and you know you smug kid. But in general, yeah, uh looking back, yeah, I'm glad it happened.

Drew Linsalata 27:14

Yeah, it's a retroactive reframe. You know, in in that situation, it might be the yeah, yeah, I'm glad that it happened. Yeah, maybe. Or like also, well, you're just really scared right now. Is it possible you're just really scared right now? And like and you're just trying to feel safer. Okay, cool. Both things can be true at the same time, you know. Somebody in the audience said, Either I'm bad at reframing or I don't believe my reframing. I think that's a really great, I mean it's a little bit of a joke, but if you don't believe your reframe, it might be because your reframe is trying to prove the original thought wrong. Like, oh, clearly I'm failing and I'm never gonna get better. And your reframe is, oh, but it's fine, everything's gonna be fine, uh, and I'm gonna be great. Yeah, yeah, you don't definitely do not believe that in that moment. I think a reframe is so important to take into account the fact that you your mind does not believe it. You can't the reframe is not arguing against, it's not presenting the the 180-degree opposite truth that won't work.

Josh Fletcher 28:06

So yeah, yeah, no, of course, of course, of course.

Drew Linsalata 28:10

Yeah, cool.

Josh Fletcher 28:10

Think and think of another reframe while I we got a question. Would you like the question?

Drew Linsalata 28:15

We could do the question if you want. I mean, I'm going through the chat here to see, you know, what other people are looking for. Like, what would they try to reframe? Um, well, you know, let me offer one quick reframe because there's a person who's talking about like, you know, how am I supposed to do this really scary thing that's coming up? Like, how do I use this process to do a scary thing? The process is doing the scary thing. So the reframe is that the process, that's right. The reframe is I I have to use this process so I can do a scary thing. I know that's the process is doing a scary thing. So it's not how do I how do I knock down the fear so I could do this thing? It's oh, am I willing to go and do the thing while I'm while I'm afraid? That's my goal here.

Josh Fletcher 28:54

So yeah, little subtle ones like how do I do surrender and willful tolerance? Yeah, how do I practice surrender and willful tolerance? I am practicing the sense that it's not don't technique if I go for the tech how what's the one technique that makes all the feelings go away and I get really good at it? No, it's just how am I practicing that? How here's an opportunity to practice that's one of the most common reframes I've used. Here's an opportunity to practice. Remember that. If you're anxious and you forget all this, just here's an opportunity to practice.

Drew Linsalata 29:27

Absolutely. And then the the but the the pushback is, and I'll I'll I'll generetize it here so we don't out anybody. But so the person says, Yeah, but how do I practice? Insert the event coming up, right? And we hear it all the time. Yeah, but how do you practice a flight? Yeah, but how do you practice a wedding? Yeah, but how do you practice surgery? Yeah, but how do you practice a dentist appointment? It's not the surgery, it's the fact that you are so scared and think you can't handle your own fear. That's the the surgery. The reframe on that is like the surgery is just a trigger. Is it possible that surgery is just a trigger for this internal state that you have declared unhandleable in your life? So that's what we're we're trying to switch that way, right?

Josh Fletcher 30:05

Yeah. Um, yeah, absolutely. Um, very good. Uh here let me read this question. How was it? Um, hi Josh and Drew. First, I just want to say thank you for the podcast. Found it really helpful and supportive, especially it's been a difficult year with anxiety. I wonder if you could help me find out about the difference between anxiety and being a highly sensitive person, HSP. I came across HSP a while ago, Elaine are on, and I and although I know there are questions around how scientifically supported the concept is, yeah, I certainly am. Certainly, certainly are questions around that, it really resonated with me. I've always thought of myself as quite a sensitive person. Me too, Elaine. I'm really sensitive, but I don't think I've always been particularly anxious. What I struggle with now is working out where the line is between the two. Uh, I feel like I naturally process things quite deeply and take time to make decisions by looking at all options. Well, it sounds like you're very um intelligent and can notice things others might not and have a high level of empathy. Well, yeah, emotionally intelligent too. But when my anxiety is high, how do I know that that's just my natural way of processing things? And when it's actually turned into rumination or anxious overthinking? How do I distinguish between a personality trait or temperament that's always been there? You know, uh, where it's reflective, sensitive. So this is the the question's already going for how can I be certain? Yeah. Uh I've always been sensitive, but I don't feel like I've always been anxious. But have you noticed here? Um definitely here. Have you noticed with this question is that your anxiety will always want you to be special and it wants your attention? So, oh okay, well, I'd listen to the podcast, but maybe maybe I'm different.

Drew Linsalata 31:50

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 31:51

Maybe I'm different. Also, I did a little Google of symptoms of um a HSP. Uh, this isn't to degrade the question, it's just to show you um that anyone can write a book and sell loads of resonance cells. Uh, yeah, we did, yeah, we did. Uh here's some symptoms of a HSP sensory overload, easily startled, crowd aversion, and physical sensitivity. That describes almost everyone in this community. Um, deep empathy. Well, yeah, you're intelligent emotionally. Deep empathy is not a flaw, it's not a symptom of something. Uh, aversion to media violence. Actually, maybe I do quite can't wait for Grand Theft Auto. Um, conflict, but yeah, um overwhelmed from precious stuff. This isn't unique to a certain personality trait. Uh, my only opinion on that is don't use the title HSP to make your to affect the narrative, to make your anxiety special. Because look, you want certainty, and that's the mechanism that we all have in this community.

Drew Linsalata 32:58

I agree. Uh I you know, and it's always a touchy thing. I don't fine if you're if you wanted to say HSP, that's fine. But I I don't have any good experience with that label because it's just like the person with GAD, for instance, who wants to stop ruminating and worrying. They really want they they get it, like this is making me crazy. But also I want to make sure that I am the war war W O R warrior because that makes me a loving parent. That's what proves my goodness or my kindness. So, like, okay, I I tend to be empathetic with people. If I see somebody struggling, I I feel for them. Okay, cool. Like, lovely. The world needs people like you. We love that. But but I'm an HSP, so that means that I I that's a that's a trait that I have to lean into and like, oh, and now I'm a mess for five hours because I feel everything so strongly in the room. Like it's a virtue to take on other people's emotions. Empathy is fine. If empathy informs support or empathy informs action of some kind, we love that. If empathy informs, no, I just sit with this feeling in the pit of my stomach and say it's an inevitability, and it's also kind of a good thing that I'm so sensitive. Like, look at me, how sensitive I am. It's really hard to reconcile how do I learn to be with difficult feelings. So I always challenge it a little bit. It's not I'm not taking away your empathy, it's a good thing, right? So the sensitivity is a fine thing, but we just want to be careful about calling it an inevitability. I have to be an HSP, but also want to make sure that I can tolerate difficult feelings.

Josh Fletcher 34:23

Yeah, exactly. And do you not reckon underneath this, and I'm only speculating question, Sandra? So beautiful question.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 34:29

Uh, do you not think underneath it all it's I'm an HSP, so I can't tolerate it? You know, and I get that from I I'm a this, I'm a that. I'm an autistic guy, I get sensory overload, I'm getting sensitive of things, like whatever. It's not nice. My friends and loved ones can deal with it better, but I can still tolerate discomfort. That's the difference.

Drew Linsalata 34:55

And maybe you're maybe your level of tolerance and my level of tolerance are going to be different, or maybe from day to day we're gonna be different because we're human beings. But the it's the absolute statement how I can't tolerate this because I have this personality trait. Well, okay, then that would mean a life of accommodation. And if you could pick that, and we would still root for you if that works for you. So it's all good. Um, anyway, good question. How about uh how about a did it anyway from our little community because I think it's a good one, and we'll see what we can do after that.

Josh Fletcher 35:25

Also, can I make a casting call? We need more audio did it anyways. Loads of written ones, and it's lovely, but there's a scarcity of audio did it anyways. So, your challenge, if you're someone who listens there, is to send in an audio did it anyway. Whoever you are, wherever you're in the world, send them in. We need loads, and if we get enough, we'll just do an episode just piping them all through. Uh, we need more audio did it anyways. So if this is you and you're like, I'm scared to send something to those guys, well then send something in, and nothing is too scary, nothing is too small. If it terrifies you just to get out of bed and brush your teeth, that's a good did it anyway. Yeah, but you know, if you get in a plane and jumping out of a plane and into, I don't know, a submarine and going to the whatever, send that is into there's no one too big, there's no one too small. Yeah, and you can do that where, Drew?

Drew Linsalata 36:15

At disorder.fm. You hit the little blue thing on the side of the page and it'll open a little voicemail recording thing. You got two minutes, so be mindful of that. But yeah, we love them all. So send them in. I love that it's a casting call. We're paying SAG AFSTRA minimum, by the way. So do you're not gonna get rich? That's we're paying nothing. Admittedly, it's zero. You get exposed, you get exposure. Do it for exposure. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, like if all the people who will hear you talk about how you vomited and were okay.

Josh Fletcher 36:39

Uh oh, emetophobia and OCD ones, please send them in as well. Oh, we love all those for sure. I love an intrusive thought, did it anyway. Just as simple as I don't know, like sat there and your brain's like, what if I stab my family? But I picked up my and ate my dinner. I love those ones.

Drew Linsalata 36:54

Yeah, I I used the knife anyway. I carved my steak anyway. Yeah, it's really good. Um speaking of like there's no small, and people are and they send in their did it ways often. It's like, well, this is stilly. There's no silly did it anyways, as evidenced by this one from a member of our little community. Uh, I realized, says this person, that there are no small did it anyways. Good. So I'll share something that feels small. Thanks, Craig the critic, but I realize it's actually huge. I have some body stuff going on, and health anxiety is really trying hard to have me treat it as something urgent. It's saying it could be related to your surgery, or this could be this or that, whatever. I see that path and I'm choosing to not go down it. Not Googling, not messaging my doctor, not doing what is just doing what is practical to help the body stuff and giving my body some time and space. If and when it is time to address it further, I will. End of story. Uh I'm very, very proud of myself. It's hard not to compulse and ruminate, but it's how to take the boiling pot off the flame, so to speak. Oh.

Josh Fletcher 37:53

I'm sorry.

Drew Linsalata 37:56

Where's the reframe in that one, right? Like I'm scared. You know, well, what if it's what if it's a horrible thing that's gonna happen? What if I'm gonna die? What if uh what if this can happen? No, no, the reframe was like, Yeah, I see this process. It wants me to catastrophize. Uh, I'm just gonna do what I can do, and then that's it. I can't do any more than that. That's it.

Josh Fletcher 38:11

Love it. Yeah, really, really good. Um, excellent. Anything else? Or we're gonna see if you're only part of the community, you can do disorder.fm. It's not it's not essential, just a lovely group for us. Um, thank you for if you got time to leave a review or a star rating wherever you listen to us. That's that's really um, we'd really appreciate that. Uh the few health anxiety did it anyways, there. So we do have a book on the disordered guide to health anxiety. And we're currently writing the disordered guide to DPDR, which is going to be the second in the disordered library. So if you struggle with DPDR and derealization, then that'll be dropping too. What color should that book be?

Drew Linsalata 38:49

Uh we we decided all the books should have a color. DBDR. Maybe green? Green is DPDR. Let us know. Like, what color do you think DPDRxiety was the blue book? So DPDR might be.

Josh Fletcher 38:59

No, it should be see, it should be see-through and warm.

Drew Linsalata 39:03

And it's it's half reflective, so you're not quite sure really seeing it or not.

Josh Fletcher 39:08

And the right and the writing's like far or far away and up close.

Drew Linsalata 39:11

Oh, these stoker would just use different fonts, like it looks like perspective. Would be the cruelest DPDR book ever. Probably the only DPDR book ever written, because aren't you? Mirror. A mirror, it's just you open it, just black, just blackness. There's the blackest vanta black pages, right? What is that called? You never know what the next page is gonna be. What horror is the colour? Cosmic.

Josh Fletcher 39:37

People with DPDR love it. Mirror and then the cosmos.

Drew Linsalata 39:41

Telescope Pillars of Creation picture. Hey, here's our picture of eternity. Enjoy that.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

Yeah.

Drew Linsalata 39:47

Anyway, guys, very good. I will wrap up with uh just a reminder on the reframes. Reframe is not to prove your thing wrong or argue with it, it's just to take a little step a few degrees to the left or the right, and maybe see that you're looking through a catastrophic I can't lens and just try to see it in a different way. Maybe you can, even though you're really scared. That's it. So, all right, we'll do it again next week, yes. Yeah, catch you later, guys. Thanks for hanging out.