Values Driven Anxiety Recovery (Episode 59)

SPEAKER_02 0:01

If we conceptualize the recovery process from chronic and disordered anxiety, it really is one long march from fear-driven behavior to value-driven behavior.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

If you're someone with intrusive thoughts and things that go against your morals and values, turning your back on them, sitting with the discomfort, leaning into the uncertainty, not even sitting with the discomfort, just getting on with your day with is a value-driven exposure. I was at home and not feeling great, and feelings of depression were exacerbated because I didn't feel like I had a function or a purpose. I felt like quite useless.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Do what non-anxious you would do. I don't even know who that is anymore. Sometimes we lose touch with who we are and what we value. So values exercises can be really helpful to sort of revive that and remind ourselves who we really are and what we're working toward.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This episode is entitled Values Driven Recovery. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh on social media. And I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety disorders and a previous sufferer. I'm also the author of And How Does That Make You Feel, and the co-host of this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

And I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist in training, also specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders in the United States. I'm also an author, three times, uh podcaster, educator, former sufferer, just like Josh, and I'm here sitting next to him 5,000 miles across the water. So here we are for episode 60 of Disordered. What's up, dude?

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Yeah, so I'm going good, going good. Life's good. Very happy. So good. Uh you want to you are particularly um passionate about kind of talking about this subject today. I know it's your jam. Why do we talk about values-driven recovery?

SPEAKER_02 1:51

It is kind of my jam. I'm a big fan of the values work because I think if we conceptualize the recovery process from chronic and disordered anxiety, it really is one long, sometimes painful slogging through the mud, difficult march from fear-driven behavior to value-driven behavior. Meaning, you know, if you're in the thick of it right now, you're probably behaving almost entirely according to what your fear is telling you to do. Whereas when you reach that sort of recovered state, you know, whatever, however you define that, you're generally just doing when we say do it not anxious, you would do, you're basically starting to act based on what you value in life or what you want in life. So I'm a big fan of the idea that getting in touch with your values, which is a big part of act, acceptance and commitment therapy, helps you to understand why you're doing these hard things. If if you don't know what you're shooting for and you just have a vague, I want to feel better. Sometimes the why you do hard things can just become this uh torture chamber of just going around and around or you don't know why you're actually doing it. Why would I choose to do this? Well, what do you want? What do you value in life? Connect with that. It also helps too, I think, because a lot of times, and you know, I know you hear this all the time. Do what non-anxious you would do. I don't even know who that is anymore. Sometimes we lose touch with who we are and what we value. So values exercises can be really helpful to sort of revive that and remind ourselves who we really are and what we're working toward. It's a really powerful tool.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

I love that. I love that. And we I mean, we hear examples every time we we log on here and do the podcast, don't we? Have we have we got any examples today? We do have values driven.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

We do. We have did it anyways. Let's do this dead anyway here. You know what? I I want to do, yeah, let's do KP first. Um it's kind of a generic one, but every time you hear a Did It Anyway, you're listening to somebody who chose to do act based on their values based as opposed to the fear. They might not necessarily have known that. Some of them are really common, and we hear that. I they would maybe kids stuff or family stuff, but all of them have that in common. So let's listen to this one first.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Hey Josh and Drew, this is KB. Um, I just wanted to reach out about my success story. Uh, you guys have been a great help, and I am not the same person I was a year ago when I ever had my first panic attack. Through the years or through this year, with the help of psychiatrists, uh therapists, and obviously you guys, um, I got my life back together. I'm doing a lot better now. And you know, I just want anybody to know that if you're struggling with this, you know, it is not permanent. It does take hard work, but there's light at the end of the tunnel. I thought I was I had the worst, but doing exposures and listening to the podcast, and you know, making an effort to get my life back. Uh a year later I finally did it, and I'm doing really well, and I just wanted to reach out and say thanks to you guys. Y'all are great. Um, and you know, to anybody suffering with this, it's you're not gonna feel like this forever. So uh thank you so much, and you know, feel free to use my name if you'd like. Peace.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Well done, KP.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Good job, KP. And I'm sorry that I ruined it with your cricket with the crickets, but um my brain isn't working.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

Yeah, that's like a some passive aggressive thing, wasn't it? Like, is that all you could do, KP? That was brilliant. I'll edit that. So good. And uh I love I love the you could hear the the pride and the attitude uh in his voice that was just so good. And you could see a year ago, struggling with panic attacks, look how far you've come, KP. Well done, man.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Yeah, and thank you for like sharing that as a way to encourage other people. Like, I didn't think I could do it, but here I am. And I think if we look at you know values in recovery, you could say that what he was doing, because people would want to ask him, Well, how did you do it? Well, he said he did hard things, and why did he do hard things? If we probably dug into it, it's well because I was tired of living based on what my anxious brain was telling me to do. I wanted to be me again. Yeah, that's really, really important.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Do you think part of values-driven recovery is about envisaging what non-anxious you would do, or even calling back in your memory to a time where you felt like you weren't hindered by anxiety and just kind of placing that as the finish goal, and whilst the journey there is can be full of doubt and discomfort, knowing that when you get there, it was worth it.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Yeah, I think so. And like, you know, what did non-anxious me used to do? That's super valuable exercise, of course, because you can think of specific activities you might want to work on as exposures, but why was I doing that? I really missed, you know, somebody the other day say, like, I used to be so active in my church. That was that's important for this person, and now I I don't go anymore because I'm afraid. You know, they really wanted to get back to that. So it's like, well, you can look at that as well, an exposure would be trying to learn how to go back to, you know, what whatever you were doing, either the church services or your community events. Or, well, clearly I value connection, right? Or I value my faith. Those are life values, and now I can look at exposures that move me toward those values because there's a big range there. And you could identify things that you might not have thought of if you thought your only job was to learn how to go back to church on a Sunday morning. So it really opens things up a little bit. And having that conversation was really great too, because it was, oh, that's right, I do value those things. There was a little bit of a spark moment of like, oh, that's right, uh, that's who I am. I'm I yes, I used to go to church, but who I am is somebody who values their faith community.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

That was a good moment, so and you're not yeah, it's almost a reminder that you're not defined by your anxiety, yeah, says the guy who calls himself anxiety Josh on social media.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Oh, the irony is strong with this one, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

But you're not defined by your anxiety, it's like what does define you and strive towards that? Um, yeah, because it it helps, particularly when you're in the in the whirlwind of an anxious exposure or doing tricky things, having that reminder of that's still talking to you with a calm voice amongst all the shouting of doubt. But no, this is why we're doing this. Remember, you've got this. Let these guys shout. Remember, we knew what we were gonna do before we went and and undertook this task, and we're gonna keep doing it and keep going. Yeah, it's all right. I've got you. They they're shout, they're making an idiot out of themselves by shouting. You know, everyone in the restaurant wants them to leave, no one cares. We're the ones with integrity here. Let's do it, let's keep going, you know, and we will tip the sufficient amount.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Yeah, that's a I love that analogy. It's really good because you're right. The your your amygdala, whatever, the limbic system is screaming at you to not do things or to do things to keep yourself safe that move you away from who you truly are and know you are and want to be again, and the way you want to express those values. Like, no, no, don't do that, that's too dangerous. Don't do that in my trigger you, don't do that anymore, don't do that anymore. And then, you know, you can wind up in that situation. I know I was. I don't know what your experience there was like, well, who the hell am I? Like, where did that guy go? What happened to him? And you know, you feel a little bit lost, you don't even know what to do. When you hear people like us say, Well, do what non-anxious you do. A lot of people would be like, I don't even know what that is anymore. I've lost track of that. So there's some cool exercises that you know I I tend to maybe start to help people work through that can help you start to revive that. That uh, you know, what are your values and like what what are values? You know, I think that that's important too.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yeah, I remember in mine when I uh I took some time off work when I was initially unwell, panic disorder, agrophobia, or OCD. I was at home and and not feeling great, and feelings of depression were exacerbated because I didn't feel like I had a function or a purpose. I felt like quite useless. And so one of my values is was to get in touch with the fact that I am still capable of doing things, and that's what got me on the bus to work, that's what stopped me from running out of the room when I wanted to, you know. And um, I worked in a school at the time and just you know, wanting to give something back and offer something, and yeah, that that's part of the conversation, it's part of the wise mind that's speaking calmly in situations where it feels feels very loud. No, remember why you're doing this, you got this. Remember why you're doing it.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Yeah, you want to feel you in that situation, you might say, Well, the my my life value there was I want to contribute, I want to feel useful, I want to be a productive member of my community, whatever it happens to be. And so when your you know, lizard brain is screaming at you, like, no, you should better just stay on the sofa today. Like, no, no, no, I don't want to be that guy. I'm not that guy, I'm this guy, I'm a productive member of my community guy, so let's go act like him.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Mine was just pacing around because I had so much adrenaline, I couldn't even sit still. I would spend all day like lying down five minutes, feeling overwhelmed. So I get up and just pace the room. Yeah. And just and just try and get rid of how I felt constantly and ruminate. And oh, if I if I work out this problem and find the miracle thought, then I can go back to work, then I can see friends again, then I can do all this. No, no, no, no. The wrong way around.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Yeah, that's that. Do we recover to live, or do we live to recover? I think, and listen, back in the thick of it, I might have said, Well, I got to recover so I can live again. But over time you start to recognize, like, oh no, I I actually start to live as best I can to recover. It's the other way around. And so, what do I choose? I choose to to move toward what I value and stop listening to only the fear. The fear moves me away from who I am, but now I'm gonna choose to try and move toward who I am as best I can today, you know. And and and yeah, that's the way you do it. And it's I I feel that that's more effective too. If you do value-driven exposures or things that connect that would be ultimately more important to you, there's a lot more effect there in a way.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I value, Drew? But did it anyways?

SPEAKER_02 11:53

Do you yeah?

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Can we have another one?

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Yeah, I think I probably would agree with you on that. Let's go to let's go to Strong Island, New York for Did It Anyway, because you know, that's where I'm from.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

I've heard they're all crazy there.

SPEAKER_04 12:03

Hi, Drew and Josh. My name is Carrie. I am from Long Island, New York, and I want to share a Did It Anyway. You can share my name as well. And I want to preface this by saying that I am fully recovered from addictive order, but still experience anxiety from time to time. And I think that it's important for people listening going through this anxiety journey recovery journey to know that even though you can be fully recovered, you can also experience anxiety at times, and that that is okay. So yesterday I had a doctor win, and of course, you had inventory anxiety. And the last time that I went to the doctor, before I knew anything about recovery, I had a full time in the room. I could not even be there without my husband or without meeting them. And this time I went alone without my husband, without men. And even though I felt anxiety, I didn't know it. I got through the appointment, I got through the blood work, which I also need, and I was fine. I survived. It's okay to feel anxiety and get through your day and do normal things that you're supposed to be doing or want to be doing or have to be doing. And it's okay. And I just finished work today, and it's a beautiful day, and now I'm gonna go to a book event at a brewery and have a great time. Thanks for everything you do, guys. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

Go Carrie, go Long Island. Long Island Remember.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Well done. Excellent. Uh also a book event at a brewery sounds really fun.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

You know, I'm a little bit annoyed at Carrie because we live a long island together and she didn't even say the name of the damn brewery.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

So, like, you know, she doesn't want to bump into you as well. We have I want to go to a book event interview at a brewery too. One of Carrie's core values is to not bump into me.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Not bump into me. Never see that guy. Like, I know he's around here somewhere, and you know what? I support that value 100%.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

Aren't you banned from like 90% of the breweries and not bumping?

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Anyway, so it doesn't matter. Like, don't tell me where it is. And you know, and I love at the end, and I'm going to a book event at a brewery. So, like, you can probably find a value in that. I don't know, Carrie. Uh, hopefully she knows I know she never wants to see me and will never know me, but you know, it's what what's the value there? It might be, well, I value being social, I value literature, and I like books, I like authors, I like that stuff, I like my friends, I value being in my friendships, and that's where we're meeting today. As opposed to like, well, what I'm gonna do is listen. Sorry, World of Warcraft again. Um, I don't play World of Warcraft. I really don't. Maybe I should. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

But it's one of your values.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

It is one of my values to not play World of Warcraft. But somewhere in Carrie's story here is the value or values coming out. I'm gonna go do what I like to do, what's important to me. So well done. I'm a fan. Excellent.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Yeah, excellent. Well done. Well done. It's um again, I like I love hearing the pride in people's voice, it's one of my favorite parts of this job as well. It's just like, oh, I'm dead, I'm dead proud of myself. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Yeah, I know, I know I'm driving this one because it's sort of my thing.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Um, it's nice to hear you be compassionate, Drew. Well, I've heard the old episodes of the anxious truth. It's like a drill sergeant at some awful budget personal training camp where you get up and like have no carbs and then do burpees and be like, you must overcome. I'm like, chillo, it's nice that you get soft.

SPEAKER_02 15:25

Get in that ice bath maggot. That's the anxious truth episodes circuit 2016. Uh like that was my inner Ar Lee Ermi coming out. What is your major malfunction, Private? Um but you know, I didn't think full metal jacket. I believe that was full metal jacket, right? Oh, yeah. Oh that's a tough movie. Yeah, that was that was a tough one. Um, but I I think the values thing for me is something that I only recognized in retrospect that I was doing. And I think a lot of recoveries like that. Oh, I didn't know I was doing that. I wasn't like, oh, let me make a values-based decision. I felt like I just don't want to do this anymore. I I can't live like this anymore. So I'm gonna do the other thing, be and you better take me down and kill me. Like, there were moments like that in my recovery when I started to really move forward. I was just tired of not living according to my values. So I didn't know I was doing value-driven recovery. I just got tired of being pulled away from who I really was, couldn't tolerate that anymore.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

It came, it came up in my therapy as well. Like I initially, it was bittersweet because when I was initially poorly, it was because I needed to look after my brother. I reckon I'd have been a lot more stuck in anxious territory if I didn't have the immediate value of wanting to look after my brother. So I was doing it for him, which in a way is sweet, but also unfortunate because of the circumstances, because he wasn't very well, and so I was like, no, I need to get back, I need to sort my shit out here because I need to look after him. But I'm in retrospect, looking back, if he wasn't, I might have just spent longer time nesting, making transforming my world, making things more comfortable. But the fact is that like I I wanted to get out and kind of do the best I can so I could do hospital visits and take my brother out and stuff, and that was definitely a value. That was a value-driven exposure in the sense that one of my core values is to be there, and you know, and it started particularly with agrophobia, just walking to the end of my garden, then walking down the street, walking on the bus, feeling those feelings, doing them anyway. Um, but yeah, at the back of my mind, yeah, if you think about it, it was strong values that were driving it.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Yeah, and sometimes you work, you know, for me, if I look back, I would think, oh, I probably would have benefited from actually doing some values work. I might have gone a little faster or suffered a little less, I don't know, or had more purpose. But sometimes you don't even have to do that. Life just rips the values out of like that hidden part of you and shows them to you. You know, your the value of being part of your family and loving your brother and taking care of your brother and doing the best you can for your family. You had no choice. Here it is. Here's your value, Josh. What are you gonna do with it? And so you acted toward it, you know, maybe not. Yeah. So, like, there's it's a really powerful thing because when you can connect to that, and you hear it when in the stories we hear from people who do it because they're parents, or I didn't want to let my partner down, I'm tired of missing out on our relationship, or people who are in the helping professions. I'm a nurse and I and I I knew I had to take care of this person, that's that value coming out and overriding the fear, at least for a few minutes at a time, and that's what it that counts. We can we can build on that.

SPEAKER_01 18:54

Yeah, be careful not to misinterpret this though. It doesn't mean if you're too you're at a stage of recovery where maybe an exposure is too frightening for you, or you get into a state, it doesn't mean you that isn't your value, it just means that's that's just something you you're working towards, right? You know, uh, and particularly with OCD, um, OCD and people with intrusive thoughts, demand, oh my god, these thoughts are the opposite to my values, and I'm spending hours thinking about them. Does this mean that there's something wrong? No. What we're saying is if you're someone with intrusive thoughts and things that go against your morals and values, turning your back on them is the values like sitting with the discomfort, leaning into the uncertainty, not even sitting with the discomfort, just getting on with your day with it with the discomfort is a value-driven exposure.

SPEAKER_02 19:44

Yeah, but if I don't argue with it and prove it wrong, doesn't it mean I like it and therefore I'm I'm abandoning who I truly am? That's the argument there, and that's yeah, very confusing.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

If I don't ruminate on it and find 100% certainty that this isn't me, right, then that's not my values. My values is that I'm a good person. And if I leave this alone, then this leaves me open to the fact that I might not be a good person, I might be horrible. Yeah, no, that's the OCD talking. Right. Your value is no, I know that I'm uh I'm defined by my behavior, not my thoughts. Yeah, and I know that OCD and intrusive thoughts thrive because there's the opposite of who I am. So I'm gonna do the opposite of what it suggests and practice doing that.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Yeah, that's true. And if we look at, you know, what Josh said is is correct, if maybe an exposure is outside of your reachability zone right now, and that's a real thing, right? That's why we do incremental exposures. The value in that situation, it doesn't mean like, oh, I've abandoned that value because I can't do this exposure now. That value could be the motivation to work toward that exposure. That's why you would do it. You know, otherwise, it's I don't know why it would do that. This is a super scary thing for me. Why do you keep telling me to do it? I don't want to do that. Well, what will you get on the other side of this fear? Oh, return to the value. So it doesn't mean you're right. Like you have to be careful with that. It's like, oh, I'm not a good person because I didn't do my exposures, or I'm not a good family member because I couldn't do that today. No, that's what motivated you to try today, whereas maybe two weeks ago you wouldn't try. So congratulations, you're moving forward if you do that.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We just throw that in as a disclaimer because people with very loud Craig the critics may misinterpret it. He's always there.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

It's Craig the critic.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

He's like, You're not doing your values. If you really valued being a parent, you do more. No, that's not what we're saying.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

How about the thing where you do do a good job? This is values-driven, also, it's just sneaky. And we hear a lot. Again, I'm talking about parents a lot because I know I hear that in the community, but the whole like, well, I haven't taken my kid to the playground in six months, and I did it today. The sun was out, you know, they really went to go play, as friends were there. We met, I we hung out at the playground for 45 minutes. I haven't done that in six months. But that's where, you know, this guy chimes in. It's Craig, the critic. But I wasn't fully present, I wasn't actively engaged. Like you'd Did a good thing according to your values, and that inner critic just says, No, you didn't. None of that counts. And it attacks that again. I'm I'm a terrible mom because I wasn't fully present while Kevin was on the monkey bars.

unknown 22:11

Really?

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Really, Craig is at where you're going? So, you know, it's not fair.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Just a little bit of time, guys, and stop trying to be perfect. We're doing stuff. It's it's fine. You you'll engage eventually. You're not gonna be present during an exposure. We spoke uh in an episode not long ago, like as long as it's 51%, you're all good. That's how I measure it anyway, or even just some. Yeah, you know, aim for 51, anything over is win, even if some is a win. Yeah, you know, like you know, yeah, it's not I think what I'm trying to say is that values are an ideal, they're not measurable. Yes, don't try to measure a value and conflate it with your behavior and your anxiety levels. No, no, no, no. It's just an ideal that you strive towards.

SPEAKER_02 22:57

I somebody once told me, I might have been one of the act trainings. I don't know, like a value represents a path that you walk on. You you don't you don't check uh I walk the street, it doesn't have a check box. You don't feel like walking here. Yeah. I'm walking here. Hey. Um yeah, like you don't check that box, you know. I oh go I accomplished that value or I felt that value. It's not a feeling. I felt right, but I think people would get confused. That's that I wasn't fully present, or I would, you know, yeah, I did go back to church with my family, but I sp I wouldn't even know what the what he was saying. I didn't even know what the pastor was saying. Like, so I failed. Well, because what did you think? I was supposed to, if I didn't feel a certain way doing the exposure or after the exposure, well, I I didn't reach my value, I failed. No, a value isn't a feeling, a value is a path you walk on. So it's really, you know, and it's an ideal. I love that. It's a it's a direction you go in.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

I think we tick the box of righteousness as a value every time we drop one of these episodes. We do. Self-righteous douchebags.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

One of my core values is like entertaining myself because we seem to do that a lot. We just think we're hilarious. So uh no one else does. No one else does.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

Just get to the informative, evidence-based uh anxiety content, please. No one's interested in you goofing around.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

It's funny. This is the boat, this is the part of the episode where Drew and Josh talk about the podcast. It's the meta part. Like we have so many lovely reviews, and thank you for everybody who puts those out there. But I gotta believe that for every person that appreciates when we're chuckling and being goofballs, there has to be another person that's like, this is unlistenable. And if you're out there, we're sorry. Like uh we get it. It might be. It's it's possible. I gotta click this off because this is killing me. So just a moment to recognize we might not be for everybody. Sorry, guys. Um, so that's that's values. Can we talk a second about how to find, how to connect to values again before we go back to did it anyways and questions? Yeah, take the stage. Take the stage, man. Let me get the spotlight. I'm ready for my close-up, Mr. DeMille. Um these are cool because people confuse goals and values all the time. A value is not a checkbox and like we were just talking about. What are my values then? Here there are some cool exercises that I love that come out of the act community that can connect you back to your values. You know, I'm not going to use that that warning thing because we don't do that here. One of the cool act exercises is what if you had to write your own obituary? What would you write about yourself? Or I've modified that. Let's assume you're being inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, which clearly, Josh, you will be at some point. It's just a matter of time. And like you say, hey, I want my friend Drew to give me the induction speech, what would you want me to say about you? Because I would probably talk about your values and who you are, like the path you've walked in life. This is why we dig Josh because he's always there for his friends and he's curious and he's artistically creative and all of those things. If you write your rock and roll induction hall of fame speech, or you write your own obituary, that starts to tell you what your values are. Oh, look, I valued my family, I valued beauty in the world, I valued art. I value like that's those are cool exercises, I think, because they don't they won't say goals. We're gonna induct Josh into the rock and roll hall of fame because he got up every morning and ran three miles. No one would no one would say that when they at your obituary. That's a goal. That's a checkbox.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

What would you have on yours? Mine would be if he really sexually evaded prosecution for six attempts at grand theft auto.

SPEAKER_02 26:25

Uh yeah, maybe that's possible. Like manage to not offend that many people might. I don't know that, but they might say about me. I don't know. But uh possibly, or I don't know. It's really it's hard sometimes. That's a hard, you know. I've never done that exercise. Maybe I'll do that.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Had a mental health UK top 10 mental health podcast in the UK.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

That was see, that's a goal, not a value. But so the in that situation, the value might be to be helpful. I want to be helpful, I value being helpful, and so we make this crazy podcast that we make. But I've never done that exercise, but there's some cool exercises you can do if you actually Google ACT, ACT, and values exercises. There's a ton of them. Act is just full of crazy little exercises and metaphors that you can do that help you begin to identify what your values are again if you feel a little lost. And plus, your values might change over time. You can't go through this thing that you're all going through if you're listening to us and not change. So the things you maybe valued in the past, maybe you still do, but at a lower priority, and other things have taken their so there's cool little exercises to try if you're feeling a little lost.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

A good one as well as like, particularly with people who struggle or forget what non-anxious them would do or whatever. And we've mentioned in the past about well, trial and error, see what you want. Maybe one of your values is to you know, I like to learn new things. I'm an intrepid explorer of activities, maybe even geography in anything, trying new things is your value. I hear a lot of things like, Oh, I don't know if I'll like um ballroom dancing. Well then but what's one of your values? Well, actually, I like trying new things and and pushing myself a bit. That is one of my values. All right, then have a go. You know, let's get the ballroom shoes on. You know, do let's do something like that. One of your values might be to try a new thing, give things giving things a chance is a good value.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Being open, like open, that's one of those like big we get all the theory here. Big five personality traits, openness is a protective trait. So, like, I value curiosity, and I'm going to try to start being a little more curious and open to experiences. So, yeah, and you know what? That recover that might be a really important value to you during your recovery because it can drive your recovery choices. I'm just gonna try this. Again, I've told the story, that's why these stupid guitars behind me that I barely touch anymore. I I don't know what I want to do. I was a full-time anxious person, I lost my job as a full-time anxious person. What do I want to do now? I have no idea. Oh by good. Did you lose your job? Well, I lost my job as a full person I always say that my job was a full was being a full-time anxious person. And then, you know, when I got better, I lost that job, and now I'm like anxiously unemployed. I'm unemployed for my anxiety, and I didn't know what to do. So I, you know, I just had to.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Which severance package was a life of reading.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Oh, it was the golden parachute of love. Yeah, so you know, the cure the value of curiosity or openness or exploration could help drive some of your recovery choices. What do I do? I don't know. I'll just try some stuff. How's that?

SPEAKER_01 29:32

I will another did it anyway, but specifically from an American woman. Do you?

SPEAKER_02 29:38

I can appro I can accommodate that. See, I'm a useful kind of guy. Here we go.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

Hi, Drew and Josh. My name is Addy, and I am a 19-year-old college student from California. I just wanted to share a did it anyway with you guys. Um over the last like week, I've just been struggling with really bad, just like general anxiety in my body. Like I wake up in the morning, my heart's racing, just like you guys know, all this stuff. Um, and CPTR, and my tummy hurts, and just like every basically like symptoms to happen has just been around. Um, but I haven't let that rule my life. And that's just a small win that I've been super proud of recently because I've wanted to cancel plans and I've wanted to stay home from work, and I've wanted to not go to my classes, but I have not missed a single day of school, I've not missed a single day of work, I've not canceled any plans with friends. I just have pushed through and just allowed myself to show up anxious and not even try to fight the anxiety, and it's super uncomfortable, but I've done it anyway. Um, every single day. And right now I'm going to work again, and I'm just gonna keep going because I'm not gonna let this anxiety win. And I just want to share that with you guys because it really is due to your community and your guys' podcast, just that I've felt like I have the ability to do this. Um yeah, so that's just my little said it anyway. I hope that this can encourage just you guys to keep up the work that you're doing and just can encourage some other people that they're not alone in the stuff that they're facing because it fucking sucks, but we got this. So thanks guys.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

A nice values-driven exposure. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

And extra applause for the for turning the podcast rating into R from PG 13. Thanks, buddy. I don't know. You you let a cuss slip now and then. I know I do. I think in the last one I I let one out, but no one people still listening, so that's good.

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Yeah, uh, lovely. Well done um for sharing that and uh brilliant as well. Multiple things, uh particularly what we're talking about today, you know. Actually, I don't want to miss study, I don't want to miss work. Um, I don't want to miss seeing my friends, you know. I value seeing friends or hanging out with them, and even though I don't want to, I'm gonna do it. And actually, I'm getting more in tune with it. I'm getting habituating to what my values are.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

Yeah, I love the part when she says, I and not even fighting the anxiety. That's a good, like, so when people like, well, what do you do? Well, don't do anything, like, do nothing, don't fight it. You don't drop your resistance. Yeah, you say surrender, I surrender, willfully tolerate whatever, call whatever you want. Like, but in the end, you're engaging in a value. I'm gonna engage with my friends because they value friendship and community, is the thing you do instead of resisting your anxiety, and then you learn over time, like, oh, even when I don't fight it, I turn out okay. Look at me, go Addy. What do you got, man? I see you looking at your screen. What do you got? Something good.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Uh, yeah, I've got one here. Um, I want to share my success story, and you're welcome to use my name if you share it. Um, I didn't take down your name, apologies, but uh, I I've got the written did it anyway. Recently lost my dad in August 2023 to pancreatic cancer. He was diagnosed six months prior, and it was a roller coaster of emotions, but nothing like after his funeral in October. From October to New Year's, I had anxiety every moment of the day that seemed to come out of nowhere. So bad that I ended up in the urgent care and then went on to taking meds, thinking and looking for the cure all. It wasn't until finding your podcast and listening through so many episodes to learn what anxiety really is. Once I sorted out what amps up the adrenaline and cortisol, which was the fear of feeling anxiety, did I begin my recovery? It's now April, and anxiety is still there at times. Uh hold on. I do often sometimes scan my body, the inwards compulsion, and wonder why I don't have a feeling or sensation, but come to realize that is that it is unnecessary to do since I am in a good place, and my rumination tends to go away. I have since been more aware of my depression since that is at the front of the line now, instead of my anxiety. But I have since taken many of the lessons from your podcasts and started to make small changes in my daily life to try to curb the thoughts of being down as well, as beginning to meditate. I know Josh speaks outwardly of hating breathing excess. I don't hate them, I just say sometimes they don't work.

SPEAKER_02 34:10

You're a hater, you're a breath hater.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Yeah, you hate everyone breathing. Uh, as it usually aids an anxiety to think about your breath again. But but again, going back to what you guys say, anxiety can be dealt with with and when it is. I can focus on other things in my life that help me. At the beginning of this, I had never been so low with terrible thoughts and mindsets. But now looking back, I have made I'm so sorry for Drew, Drew's distractions. I have made so many little progressive actions that I like to say I am moving forward. When I look back, I've been moving forward the entire time. But when you're in the depths, it's difficult to see. It's like preparing for a marathon or getting abs. We wouldn't know about that. It's not going to happen overnight. It takes time and habits to create that end goal. For others out there, keep going. It gets better. That was great in it anyway. It was good. Yeah, I I I really like and well done. And apologies to hear about the passing of your father. But you're an example to go show that you can get to a good place even when you've got the mixture of anxiety disorders and grief and depression and all that. You can get there. So thank you for sending that in and taking the time out to write all that out too.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Yeah, 100%. I think uh we are planning to do a grief episode at some point. We're gonna talk, we're gonna do one just on that.

SPEAKER_01 35:35

But yeah, we'll do a grief episode at one point.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

The thing I would add, I because I know that there's a couple of there's a couple of voicemails I listened to today that we haven't played on the air, but that talk about that too. The the only thing I'll add to that before we do a whole episode on it is we grief isn't a floating, accepting, tolerating, exposure, engineered away. Like it's just a thing you have to feel. So sometimes that's really hard for anxious people to accept it. Right now, I'm gonna feel terrible and have big emotions. I know there's no exposure for grief, it's just a an experience we have to have. It's it's a dread. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Yeah, and we can tell you what not to do. I can certainly tell you that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, um, I've got a I've got a question here. I think we've got time. Yeah, we've got a couple of minutes. Put you on the spot.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Hi, I have a question. So basically, for the last two years, I've suffered with anxiety in every form: panic attacks, monophobia, agrophobia, and social anxiety. I've been to six different therapists, and we've always focused on the agrophobia like it was the main problem. And so have I for the last two years. I've not been getting anywhere with my recovery. But I've just started working with a new therapist, and she thinks it's not the agrophobia. She thinks my main problem is severe social anxiety. And if I start to work on that, then the agrophobia would slowly fix itself. I do think she's on to something, as it all dies down to me being embarrassed and looking silly in front of people. So my question is: what are your thoughts on this? Can you talk a bit more on social anxiety? How would you begin to approach this? You can use my name. Uh again, I've not copied the name. So Stacy. Oh, Stacy. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I did. I just didn't look close enough. Thanks, Stacy. Uh thanks, Stacy. Uh, I mean, we can't comment too much because you're in in yeah, in therapy, but what are your initial thoughts, Drew?

SPEAKER_02 37:24

Um, I it doesn't sound crazy to me. Like, you know, again, we we can't really like, oh, your therapist is definitely right or wrong. We don't know. But if your anxiety, if the disaster that you always attach with those anxious feelings is I will be embarrassed and people will shun me or I'll be ostracized or you know, unloved, it could be, you know, because the exposure there would be like, okay, I'm gonna start to learn how to be embarrassed better. Not that, oh, it's you know, and it's so funny because in that situation, no matter no amount of they're not even looking at you, probably has ever mattered. Maybe it made you feel better for five minutes, but when the time came to actually do the scary thing, oh, I don't care. So maybe it could be.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Yeah, yeah, it could be a mixture of agrophobia and social anxiety, either way. Um you've got to remember as well, like the agrophobia is the flight part of fight, flight freeze fawn, and this type of anxiety, particularly fear of humiliation, is the fawn response. Yeah, uh, I'm afraid I have a fear of humiliation. This could, you know, this could run a bit deep. Maybe you've got had a history of growing up in around people that have been put you down, or maybe your brain, the form response has been conditioned in the past to really care what people think. Uh, maybe you've been in an environment full of conflict, or in you know, or in a not ideal relationships, or been on the receiving end of bullying. Um, either way, the exposure. Well, I actually think it's important to formulate what the exposure is. I love a good formulation, um, particularly Nesquik. And when you start to pinpoint what it is that you're exposing yourself to, uh, then you know exactly why you're doing the exposure. So maybe it's a bit of agrophobia, actually. Yeah, I don't like it when I'm not in my safe space, but also, yeah, I'm fearing anxiety, but I'm also fearing judgment from people. Yeah. Um, yeah, and that's when you can do some cool exposures. I've done some with my own clients in the past, like rolling around on the floor in supermarkets and stuff. I do it. Just say, like, no one actually cares, you know. But but it's but the fawn response does. Yeah. And that's what you've got to show.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

So what you're learning there is like, oh, I can I feel it doesn't matter. Keep telling me that people aren't looking, even if they aren't, I don't like the way I feel when I think people are looking at me. Remember, agoraphobia is just avoidance based on I don't want to feel a certain way. And if that certain way is driven by social anxiety, then yeah, and remember they also all bleed together. There's really it's really hard to say, no, no, your problem is social anxiety, not agoraphobia. But it could be both because all of these start to look like each other after a while. But that just might be the lens that you need to look through now to target to see where your target really is. Could be. Yeah, not a bad thing. Good question.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Good question. Oh, well, thank you very much, Drew.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Yeah, that was good.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

Where can where can people find you online?

SPEAKER_02 40:19

Well, you can find just Google the Anxious Truth, and you'll find me on pretty much any platform, which is fine. And uh, what about you, Josh?

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Google Joshua Fletcher or Anxiety Josh. Uh, come find us on Instagram, we're on TikTok as well. Um, and yeah, if not, join us every Friday for a new episode. Uh, if you're new to the podcast and you've just been listening to the recent episodes, we always recommend going back, listening to you know the initial episodes, particularly the first 12, 13. They're like the core principles of kind of what we do uh and what we talk about. But yeah, tune in. Thank you for tuning in. Send in more voice notes, did it anyways, questions to disordered.fm. And we really appreciate the reviews that you've been providing on Apple and Spotify as well. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

That helps a lot. Thanks for popping in and listening, and we will see you guys next week. We are out.