Popular But Dangerous Anxiety Advice (Episode 167)

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Common, popular, but often very unhealthy advice people get for dealing with anxiety disorders.

SPEAKER_05 0:07

The main one was quite sinister, who's going to therapists who are hell bent on pinning all my feelings on trauma.

SPEAKER_04 0:14

She actually told me in no uncertain terms that if I did not come to terms with my pain, I could not get better. Nervous system regulation and vegas nerve stimulation will tie together because they both come from the same crazy principle. If you have decided that your thoughts, your emotions, and your bodily functions are a threat, what do you think your nervous system will do?

SPEAKER_05 0:32

Big red flag. If anyone's selling you a method or a hack, it's not gonna work.

SPEAKER_04 0:36

Tapping was another big one that people sent in. You have parasites and you have to cleanse yourself. One was heavy metals, toxicity in your body. Oh, and then the third one was another biological VIX Vapor Rub. Welcome to episode 167 of Disordered. Today we're going to talk about popular but unhelpful anxiety disorder advice. I'm Drew Linsolata, one half of this podcast. I am a therapist practicing in New York that specializes in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders, former sufferer of the things we talk about here on Disordered, uh, author, co-author with my co-host, podcaster, social media dude, and as always joined by I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist based in Manchester in the UK.

SPEAKER_05 1:24

I specialize in working with anxiety, anxiety disorders, uh, having been through it myself, OCD, health anxiety, panic attacks, agrophoba, yada yada. And uh yeah, it's a privilege to co-host this wonderful podcast. So, what are we talking about today, Drew?

SPEAKER_04 1:38

We're gonna talk about common, popular, but often very unhealthy or unhelpful advice people get for dealing with anxiety disorders.

SPEAKER_05 1:47

Yeah, you were inspired, weren't you? You you uh you asked um the community a while back, like what's some of the things that were actually quite harmful when you were initially uh out there and some of the reactions and people's interpretations of your anxiety disorders. Um and there's you had a lot, you had a big list and loads of different answers. And um got a lot.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

I asked my Instagram audience. I mean, this is a couple of months ago, but I thought about I remembered it this morning. I'm like, hey, we could do an episode on this. And yeah, a ton of people. I had like over a hundred responses on that. So um, yeah. Well, did you have anything that was like told that this is definitely you gotta do this, but it actually caused more of a problem than anything else?

SPEAKER_05 2:24

Well, the main one was quite sinister. It was going to therapists who are hell bent on pinning all my feelings on trauma, not dismissing trauma and stuff like that, but they they thought that if I got to the root of my history and mummy and daddy issues and all that stuff, that my panic attacks and fear of fear would go away. And it made me worse. And my OCD latched onto this idea that there's trauma trapped in my body. Do you know how like some people with OCD get like contamination things? Have I contaminated stuff? I had a version of that where I thought there was trauma stuck in the fascia of my and because I had all these people tell me, utterly convinced, you know, I've read Peter Levine's book and he says this. Well, there's no evidence of that, but I believed it. And uh I got really, yeah, maybe really unwell. So conventional trauma treatment, and they kept going, it's like, no, it gets worse for it gets better. And I was just like, no, this gets worse. Now don't get me wrong, I have had trauma treatment, I've had EMDR and stuff for when it was appropriate. But when you're stuck in the middle of OCD, constant ruminating, scanning, and obsessing over how you feel, more inwards introspection, which is the common advice, actually can make it worse. And there's evidence to back up, um, particularly for um OCD rumination and OCD, yeah. Yeah. Like conventional talking therapy or and stuff like that, has the opposite effect. But yeah, that was one of them. I've always the funny ones as well, the tinctures and things like that. You know, just walking around putting uh rescue remedy into my eyeballs and hoping that would help. To your eyeballs.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

Yeah, I don't think you're supposed to do that. I'm not sure, but I'm pretty sure not.

SPEAKER_05 4:08

I needed it to get into the bloodstream.

SPEAKER_04 4:10

As quick as possible, you know? Okay. So for me, that trauma narrative, I I went to a therapist for a short while and she was lovely. I truly think that she did have in her mind my best interest at art. I think she was really, really, really trying to help. But she actually told me, and we only lasted maybe three or four sessions together, probably said this isn't this isn't right. Uh, this isn't we're not connecting, you know. So I it was fine, and she was gracious about it. But she actually told me in no uncertain terms, that if I did not come to terms with my pain, I could not get better. Now I was now that would come back once in a while, but I was very fortunate in that my conviction was pretty strong, and I'm like, I don't think so. I I don't that doesn't sound right. So it didn't hook me. But this was a a psychologist, someone with a PhD. But she was so heavily invested in her modality that she was convinced, and she told me, You're gonna sooner or later, you gotta do this, or you're you're never really gonna get better.

SPEAKER_05 5:06

Yeah, and the best therapists are ones that are open-minded. When people are wed, like as a Puritan to the modality, yeah, that I would say that's very unethical. Now, don't get me wrong, you know, uh Drew and I are like whatever works for you, yeah. You know, if you're gonna do something, if it works for you, we're not gonna step on your toes, we're not gonna tell you it's wrong. But when you do get therapists that are so wed to their modality of working and not being open-minded to the others, I often find that a red flag.

SPEAKER_04 5:33

You know, I'm gonna make a really very self-serving kind of statement. I think just for me, for me and Josh, and all of our colleagues that you see us associate with, uh I and maybe correct me if you think I'm wrong on this. We are clearly wed to certain modalities too, because in this particular context, we know what kind of has the best opportunity of working. But I would never run into someone else's therapy session, figuratively speaking, and insist that they start doing exposures. Like everything must be an exposure-facing tolerance problem. Yet I kind of feel like the rest of the world just wants to bring their stuff into this.

SPEAKER_05 6:07

Any therapies are like it's a physiotherapy, someone's having their cough stretch, you must do exposure, defense that pain, allow the pain, redirect your attention, right?

SPEAKER_04 6:16

Exactly. Like sometimes that is not appropriate. But I think so. We can expand beyond the trauma narrative. I mean, I think we both have personal experience with it. That was the number one thing. Like, I feel like I'm a family feud. Bing bing bing. Number one answer that was sent in by my Instagram audience is completely unscientific. Actually, it's probably number two was that the forcing the trauma, and the trauma is stored in your body, and that's what's going on. But there's no evidence for that. No, zero.

SPEAKER_05 6:40

Um just some dude, some dude wrote a best-selling book, and just if you say something loud enough or long enough, people start to take it as fact.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:47

And then you get really grumpy man shouts at cloud people like us going, Yeah, what are you doing? No, making it work.

SPEAKER_04 6:54

And you know, more so than like I I cannot stress enough, and Josh already said it. The the title of the episode is popular but unhelpful. Like, I I don't care. Like, if you like that, that's fine. We're talking about stuff that the audience is literally saying did not hurt me. It actually hurt me. It wasn't just wrong, it hurt. So that's the only reason why we're talking about this stuff. This isn't get off my lawn. We're not here to just be controversial.

SPEAKER_05 7:17

So I've I've come in with a bit of get off my lawn.

SPEAKER_04 7:20

Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_05 7:21

Um someone in the community said, When I was in the thick of it, I paid 50 bucks for an anxiety patch. 50 bucks for a box of stickers, and I covered myself in the stick of it.

SPEAKER_04 7:33

Hey, listen, you know, we can laugh about it now, um, but I know that at the time that felt like I'm laughing because I've been there. Yeah, that felt like a good plan. My uh I didn't have rescue remedy. I guess it's close. It was the magnesium craze. I was in the middle of the magnesium craze because somebody wrote an article in like the Huff Post or something, like early days of the internet, but it was called the Miracle of Magnesium. And it was really kind of a study about how, like, in populations where people have high magnesium diets, their mental health seemed to be better, but it was reasonable. But of course, even the early internet grabbed onto that, like magnesium is a miracle. And and I was get buying natural calm, which is just magnesium citrate or whatever, it's nothing dangerous, but I was really hanging my hat on that magnesium power's gonna just calm me right down, and it didn't. So we've all spent money on that stuff. I I I kind of get it. Oh, goodness. Uh so yeah, the trauma narrative that the uh second most popular one that people uh so totally came um with was, and we've talked about this before. Wait, I should play uh if I remember what the key is. Regulator that was that was the number one that came in front on the comments.

SPEAKER_05 8:41

The nerve nervous system regulation coaches and become part of the lexicon and therapy now, like it's normal to say yeah, regulating. And I it's it's an offshoot of polyvagal theory, which is gonna be completely debunked by the world's leading neuroscientists and neuroscience uh and surgeons saying this is ridiculous, yeah. And yet, again, when you repeat something over and over again from polyvagal theory, which has been debunked, yeah, and I will fight all the therapists that always shout at me for saying that, going, yeah, but it's a helpful framework. No, it's not stop teaching lies to people, it's not ethical. Um and and the whole idea of all of all that, but yeah, uh yeah, regulated that word has become the health word, and actually it's not helpful for people. Then you listen to idiots like you and I going, no, go and do things anxious, don't feel the the the aim is to not feel regulated, right? That will happen in its own time, you know. Don't get me wrong, you know, if you've got PTSD and and and health conditions and stuff, yes, of course, intervene. But in general, when you're working with the fear of fear, you're doing exposures and stuff to help the brain regulate itself. Right. You know, it's not everything is about what's the quickest way to comfort.

SPEAKER_04 9:55

Yeah. I I think the nervous system, and by the way, I'll tie this in with the people who said vag vagus nerve stuff. So uh nervous system regulation and vagus nerve stimulation will tie together because they both come from the same crazy principle, uh, which is that our vagus nerve is different than uh it used to be and it's not. But anyway, the point would be nervous system regulation implies a physical mechanism of some kind, and a bi physical, biological, chemical, I don't care, whatever you want to call it, like a physical mechanism by which uh you change the way your nervous system fires or sends signals or is activated. But really your nervous system follows instructions, it is there to find a threat or look for it and then keep you alive in the face of that threat. It's a pretty simple system. That's what it's supposed to do, and then you know, allocate resources and regulate your body. That's correct. So if you have decided that your thoughts, your emotions, and your bodily functions are a threat, what do you think your nervous system will do? It will look for those things and then sound an alarm every time it notices anything that remotely matches the.

SPEAKER_05 10:54

I'm not regulated, that's a threat. I need to regulate my heart. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_04 10:58

100% right. I'm dysregulated, so regulate harder. And then you're basically saying, no, no, no, we can't allow my heartbeat to go up past 100 beats. I can't allow a thought about this. I can't allow, I can't see that image or this song lyric. Like, okay, and then your nervous system is like, I'm doing the best I can, brother. I'm shoveling with both hands. Like, what else should I look out for?

SPEAKER_05 11:15

So I speak to a lot of my um relationship therapist friends, yeah. And they and it comes into the into the therapy room a lot like, you're not allowing me to regulate when I get in, it's just like it's it's really quite a perverse, problematic word if used um incorrectly. Yeah. Um some of the community the live audience said, some said, Yep, I've had craniosacral therapy, kinest kinesiology, kinesiology. Right, kinesiology, yeah, uh, acupuncture, and lots of other trauma release therapies. Even took a load of mushrooms up a mountain with a shaman. They just made me worse. These modalities push the idea that you don't have agency in the process.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

Oh, that's good, right?

SPEAKER_05 12:01

Well done. I'm not gonna say your name, yeah, but well done for saying that. That's such a good sentence. Push the idea that you don't have agency in this process. Oh, that's the oh, I like that. I'm gonna steal that and just and say it like I've just come up with it in the next conversation to have.

SPEAKER_04 12:16

I could only steal it. Uh that same person said, I was also told to say over and over, thank you. I love you, I'm sorry, please forgive me. With OCD. I'm walking around like a maniac talking to myself all day. Like you know, people are often given mantras or like just you know, thank, thank you, thank you. Oh, hug your OCD. It's protecting you. I have a client who was told to hug her. I'm just trying to imagine you doing that. Yeah, imagine like, oh, let me just hug my OCD. Oh, the orange juice wasn't poisoned. Hug your OCD, it's just it just loves you and it's trying to protect you. I have a client right now who was told by a well-meaning therapist that she needs to hug her OCD and talk it out.

SPEAKER_05 12:50

So whether or not No, it that conflicts with my stern modality of the two golden rules. You're making it the most important thing in the room. It doesn't need to hug something that deserves to be hugged more than your OCD.

unknown 13:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:04

Like loved ones or a giant bag of topsoil.

SPEAKER_04 13:09

The the economy bag of Cheetos might also be huggable. Those are delicious. Just give them a hug. How about we do a hug?

SPEAKER_05 13:16

I'd rather you hug that than those other things.

SPEAKER_04 13:19

You know, speaking of like crazy, helpful or popular but not helpful modalities. Um, we have a did it anyway that I want to play from somebody dealing with emetophobia, which I think is one of the toughest, most stubborn fears, which is often met with crazy modalities, but she did really well with it. So let's hear it.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

Hi, John Josh. I'm Alex from Sydney, Australia. And yes, you can use my name. I have a did it anyway story I'd like to share. I've been living with emetophobia, GAD, and OCD for over 10 years. Because of that, I'm often very hesitant to leave my safe place, my home, and even my hometown. Last year, my husband and I booked a trip to the UK. I've recently returned, and I can honestly say it was one of the bravest things I've ever done. The holiday itself was anxiety-provoking enough because of eating out in unfamiliar places, but the thought of a 24-hour flight felt like a small slice of hell. I was convinced I'd get food poisoning, start vomiting, or that someone around me would be sick and there'd be no escape. I even worried the plane would have to make an emergency landing because I'd have some sort of psychological breakdown. Despite all those what if thoughts, I did it anyway. Words cannot express how proud I am of myself. I definitely had a few adrenaline rushes along the way, but instead of letting them stop me, I carried them with me. I kept reminding myself how incredibly lucky I was to be traveling and experiencing such a beautiful part of the world. On the flight home, I was even lucky enough to have two different people sitting directly behind me vomit. And you know what? I survived. It was unpleasant, but I shifted my focus to watching movies and chatting with my husband. I truly cannot thank you both enough for what that you for all that you do. You've both been such a pivotal part of my journey, and I genuinely don't think I would have had the courage to take the trip without everything I've learned from you both. And finally, to everyone, you are so much braver than what you think. Anxiety will always try and convince you that you cannot do hard things, but it lies.

SPEAKER_04 15:30

Wow. Only you're recovering a metaphor would be thankful for two people vomiting behind her on a plane. That is so good.

SPEAKER_05 15:39

That's incredible. Amazing, right? I love that. Good job, Alex. That was so good. And I love it when Sod's Law kicks in. Like the odds of someone throw someone throwing up on you on the FT. But I just love it. I love it when life throws things at you like that. I really do. Yeah, like that's it. Well done. So good. I was just have a big smile on my face listening to that. Well done.

SPEAKER_04 16:01

This is why we have to do episodes like this, because in no other where in the world would people walk into a, you know, there's 50 people watching us, these two guys with big audiences with microphones, cheering because someone threw up on a plane. Like, no, no, no, that's good. Walk into a therapy session. We're talking about puke and pooping and like all kinds of crazy things. Like, this is therapy.

SPEAKER_05 16:22

Like, yeah, stabbing loved ones, driving into central embankments, throwing ourselves up bridges.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

I'm getting I'm getting paid for this, right? You're paying me for this. Like, it's really the strangest shit ever, right?

SPEAKER_05 16:32

So it's great.

SPEAKER_04 16:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:35

Uh a lot of people in the uh in the studio audience, there's a lot of mention of shamans and gurus.

SPEAKER_04 16:41

Gurus. One person said that uh it was an exotic an exorcism or an exoticism by a shaman. Work for everyone in the circle, but me, damn it. If it had worked, I probably would be wearing a robe, bald and chanting and blessing everyone all day. Hey, baldness, at least there's no hide, there's less hygiene. It's uh much easier. So, you know.

SPEAKER_05 16:58

I met a shaman once in Hebden Bridge, um, up near the uh peaks in um in the UK. I was chatting to him for ages. He was called Shaman something, whatever. Shaman the White or something, I can't remember. And then later on I went to the pub and I was like, Have you met that Shaman guy? And I oh no this guy at the bar just went, Oh Wayne, yeah, he's from Red.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

Shaman, Shaman Wayne. Oh, you mean Wayne? Yeah, what high school with him? Just like, oh Wayne, yeah, I grew up Red Shaman Wayne.

SPEAKER_04 17:32

Hey, listen, I'm a I'm a fan, I I love all the spiritual stuff, but I'm all good, but like it just doesn't necessarily belong here as well. I just found it really funny. But I love it. I don't know. The white shaman up on the top of the mountain. Oh, Wayne, you mean Wayne?

SPEAKER_05 17:50

He's a shaman, but then also he's a plasterer on the side.

SPEAKER_04 17:54

That's exactly right. He's a plumber on weekends. Someone in the audience said Wayne the Druid. Somehow they started to do a like a spinal tap reference. This is so good.

SPEAKER_05 18:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:05

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_05 18:07

One topic though, advice that's harmful. Yeah, there's a few methods around there that are quite popular. There's one particularly that's been circling around since the 90s in the UK called the Chinden method. Can't use the real name, so I'll just call it made by a guy called Lars Chinden.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 18:24

And um it's this thing that propagates pillars of success. And if you don't, if you don't get better, it's right. Rather than rather than hold yourself, you know, look at that the method isn't good for you. No, you're not getting better because you're not doing my method correctly.

SPEAKER_04 18:40

You're not hearing me, you're not following me correctly.

SPEAKER_05 18:42

Oh, I've seen loads of harm from that. I've literally worked with c with clients who have been through that. I've had to unpick the harm that that has caused. Yep. Big red flag, if anyone's selling you a method or a hack, it's not gonna work. If you really think about it, I know when you're desperate, I've tried it, I've been there and done all these things. But I've uh when you're desperate, you you'll believe anything, but you're also susceptible. And um I just think about if you zoomed out over thousands of years of humans knowing their body and this and that, and having these complex wirings and brains, and that have got us here. They've got us, you know, top of the food chain, we've survived, we've evolved, the smartest thing on the planet. The key to you to hacking and turning off that internal peril using a simple method is not gonna be by some guy called Sean on Instagram, is it? That's not gonna be the foundation of that. That would be in a lab at Oxford or Harvard University being studied. No, it's not gonna be behind a paywall on someone's algorithm feed. So just kind of yeah, be wary of that.

SPEAKER_04 19:51

That's true.

SPEAKER_05 19:51

And I know it's difficult when you're when you're anxious, it's difficult because it's the you'll listen, you're like moff to a flare. I know I've been there, you're like, I just need anything, I'll try anything.

SPEAKER_04 19:58

That was one of the that was one of the top things that people sent in too. The other one I want to bring up, I was laughing because this is one of the stories you told, but that like freedom groups, recovery groups, mentoring groups, that was one of the top things that people talk about. That it I mean, was it harmful and that it caused damage only insofar as it made them feel more broken or really cheated? Like, you know, I spent four thousand dollars on this coaching program. Well, financial harm is harm, yeah, is harm, right? Or, you know, that one that came up, and I'm not I'm not calling anybody out in particular, but that thing where like the method that you're talking about, the British dude, like, oh, it's not working for you, or you're doing it wrong, it's your fault, and you're not following me. And like, how could you be tray? I've heard people say they were uh accused of betraying him, like a cult leader, you know. It's yeah, oh it's really cultural, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:46

I would not say I don't care.

SPEAKER_04 20:49

No, 100%. And we I had a few people who were talking about have clients in my practice that have talked about when the coach has 50 people in every Zoom call every week promising freedom and and improvement, and then when there's any pushback, because maybe people don't understand or it's not working, it turns into they are now being victimized, then they're crying in front of the group, and it's like becomes a regular occurrence. And I work so hard for you guys, and you know, I just want so much for you to get better. Like, uh, the response to I this isn't working, or I need more help is not to cry at the person. So sometimes that is uh that could be very popular, people with very big followings often will run those things, but you gotta be careful about that.

SPEAKER_05 21:23

And can you imagine can you imagine the level of and I'm not referencing anyone yet? Yeah, I agree. Just in general, can you uh can you imagine the level of narcissism behind if I'm a therapist and trying to help an anxious person and it's not working, the first thing I do is go, what am I doing? Yeah, yeah. Where can I do what how can I skew this? What are the needs of this person? And that's literally my go to thought. I can't imagine someone who's so wed to wanting to be correct that they'd have more empathy and compassion towards their belief than someone. Suffering in front of them.

SPEAKER_06 22:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:02

Because they don't want them to prove they want. And I just, it really, it really boils me piss. And then I see that. And I don't like it at all.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

Yeah, I think that that's a whole other episode we could do just on that. You know, and that that's overvaluing a little experience and all that stuff. It's a whole phenomenon we could talk about for sure. But that was one of them. The other one that people sent in. Oh, I'm sorry. I was going to throw it out there because I'm thinking of you sitting at a Nando's when we talked about this was the tapping. Tapping was another big one that people sent in. I met a Nando's just tapping like crazy, looking like a lunatic. Tapping was another one of those that you know, tapping is portrayed, uh, whatever you call it, EFT, whatever, the tapping thing. It's often portrayed as evidence-based. It is not in any way evident. All the leading mental health authorities in the world have have come out aggressively and said, please don't say that. It's not evident. It's only evidence-based for the people who are not going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_05 22:52

The evidence is, though, uh, like I've seen it, not the tapping, it's the distraction and attention.

SPEAKER_04 22:57

That's exactly it's an intention thing. So like that's fine. A tap, ride a bike, dance. I don't care what you do. It has nothing to do with specific tapping on specific parts of your body. But then for some people, it doesn't work because that's what they're told is that no, no, you you're releasing, you're doing this, it's it's the you know, regulating you. And if it doesn't immediately do it, they feel like, and then they're told they're being they're doing it wrong. Or part of the problem, yeah, part of the problem is you have, but you just don't. This is for flawless approach. That's exactly right. If it's not working for you, I've had people who said I was told by the tapping coach, and it is very cultish because the evidence is all produced inside the cult. Like, and anybody that refutes it is an outsider and a and and a disbeliever and is a gatekeeper. No, you you just don't have you're not believing you, you know, not you gotta really buy into this for it to work. Are you what like you know, don't come into my therapy room unless you fully believe that I will save you or it might not work. Like, what I are you makes me want to choke somebody.

SPEAKER_05 23:54

Someone in the audience said, I thought tapping would work until I tried it when I was swimming, not so much.

SPEAKER_04 24:01

See, though, we might say that's a joke, but I I don't think it is. That's really funny. I would I would have a hundred percent tried tapping while swimming in my worst moments. I would have done that for sure. Uh don't tap and drive, somebody said.

SPEAKER_05 24:14

I mean, listen, yeah, we talked about the the woo-woo woo language like meridian points. So you just know like that the there ain't no science there. Um let's have a did it anyway to stop being miserable. Sure. We got it. Uh this is this is from Ren. Hi, Josh and Drew. First off, I wanted to thank you guys for the content you share. It is truly the best anxiety content I've ever heard. Oh, thank you. And I've been dealing with anxiety on and off for the better part of a decade. I love the podcast. I especially appreciate the lack of ads. This podcast is sponsored, but sorry. It makes me really trust you guys and have been recommending it to so many people. Oh, thank you. And we refuse to put ads on in there. We just advertise our own stuff shamelessly, but you know, you'll get over it. I also wanted to share it, did it anyway, that you might find interesting. I'm sure we will. Recently, I've been struggling with occasional intrusive thoughts, but even more so with the fear of intrusive thoughts. That's a really good point, actually. Fear of intrusive thoughts. I've scrolled past your episode about intrusive thoughts many times and thought, I can't listen to that. It's going to trigger me. Yesterday I realized that I was avoiding, and by believing I was unable to listen to that content, it was worsening my fear of intrusive thoughts. I was anxious, but I did it anyway, and I listened to the whole episode. I felt anxious at times throughout, but I felt so much better after I listened. I ended up having a great day, and funnily enough, had conversations about intrusive thoughts with three different friends. All these conversations reinforced how normal these thoughts are. Wow. So proud of myself, I feel like I'm heading in the right direction after a hard few months.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

Oh, I love this. That's that meta thing, right? It's not I'm afraid of the thought, the appearance of thoughts themselves. I don't care what the thought is.

SPEAKER_05 26:00

That's why there's never a small did it anyway on on disordered. You know, you've got one person having a vomit party on the plane, uh, 10,000 feet in the eye.

SPEAKER_03 26:13

I'll go with that anyway. Anyway, you're right.

SPEAKER_05 26:15

And then this person I have been known to put flair on Mannington. Well, all my emetophobe listens are like, oh, he's doing it again. Um, sorry guys. Um, and then you've got ones there, like actually purely cognitive, and and the the real bravery in the battle was just kind of listening to something because no, it might trigger me, but that's okay. Uh so really good. I really enjoyed that one, and thanks for sending it in.

SPEAKER_04 26:42

That can be tricky, right? Like, I'm just it's not I'm not even so much worried about what thought I have, just that I might have thoughts. What if I have a scary thought? All right, well, listen to let's talk about that, right? So really well. The comments in our studio audience are just they're killing it this week. It's really it's really good. Um, another one that was sent in. I will we talked about the trauma thing, we talked about tapping, we talked about nervous system regulation, we talked about coaching programs and that sort of stuff. Um, another thing that people talked about was misapplication of things like uh meditation and mindfulness. Oh, wait, I want to throw in ones that I'd never heard of before. One was parasite cleanses, which a bunch of people talked about. I've never heard of it. Oh, yeah. It's parasite. There was there was a few of them along these lines. One was parasite. You have parasites and you have to cleanse yourself. One was heavy metals toxicity in your body. You must chillate with the special, of course, they sell you the medicine to get rid of the heavy metals. And what was the other one? It was parasites, heavy metals, and I can't remember what the other one was. Oh, oh, and then the third one was another biological um VIX Vapor Rub. Remember, you know, VIX Vapor Rub, the stuff you put like on your nose.

SPEAKER_05 27:49

I sometimes wear it when I'm playing football. Like Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:53

I'm like, what? Wait, what about that's an anxiety thing? Like VIX Vap or something.

SPEAKER_05 27:56

It reminds me to breathe through my nose. That's what I like. Right. Oh, you know, you're literally right.

SPEAKER_04 28:00

You have a cold or whatever, your mom rubs it on your chest, I guess, thinking that it's I don't know, but but the detox, the parasite and heavy metals cleansing. But of course, it always comes with, and by the way, this post is sponsored by this company that makes this supplement or whatever that detoxes the parasites.

SPEAKER_05 28:17

Yeah. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 28:19

I didn't never heard that before.

SPEAKER_05 28:20

Parasite. You could invent a you can invent a problem and then invent a solution to it.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

100%.

SPEAKER_05 28:25

That's pretty much that's pretty much the wellness industry.

SPEAKER_04 28:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:28

And it's funny because we often invent a problem and invent a solution to it.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

Yeah, that that that is 100% correct. And I think just like we were talking about, you know, maybe some clinicians who, even trained and well-meaning clinicians who get really married emotionally to their modality, that's what we also find. They're either just flat out con men and grifters, they're out there and we know that. And then there are people who I think genuinely believe that they are helping, they are emotionally invested in heavy metals or parasites or tapping or whatever. They truly do think, they just don't know what they don't know. And that's that's dangerous. But the parasite cleanse really got me. Also, the heavy metal poisoning. You have copper poisoning in your teeth. Yeah, that's that's the fillings in your teeth. If you have old dental fillings, that's mercury, there's mercury amalgam, which was been talked about for years and years and years, and no no amount of facts ever does debunks it. Not anymore. I don't think they use it anymore, but it's actually not really a thing because there's so little, and it's an is it a chemically bonded form. But anyway, no, no, no, no, no. You were you were poisoned by your dentist when you were eight years old, and he and now that's why you have OCD. Wow. Oh, thanks, thanks, dentist. I thought it was kind of nice. I don't know.

SPEAKER_05 29:35

Um, there's a there's lots of other again as well with the nutritionist people with OCD. Um, you feel this way, and and it's harmful in a way because some people kind of start start lacking nutrition and stuff, they start cutting things out. Uh I I always laugh at these people on when I do go on social media, people calling out nonsense, wellness influences, but it's harmful for people with anxiety because they want to feel better. Yeah, they're like, you know, vegetables are bad for you. What have we we are regressing as a species? If you uh we are regressing, or you get those, and they're everywhere.

SPEAKER_04 30:12

You know, it's a video of some woman or some dude walking through a supermarket picking up everything they find in it. You're poisoning your family with this, like it's always in a supermarket. There's one guy that walks around shirtless in every supermarket he goes to, and he's just like talking about everyone, everything on the shelves is poison, except the stuff he sells is not poison.

SPEAKER_05 30:28

Oh, yeah, they always want to sell you something. Yeah, yeah. They walk around supermarkets like this is bad. Want to know why? It contains atoms. Do you know what else contains atoms? It's poison. Pasta equals poison. Buy my supplement.

SPEAKER_04 30:42

It's all good. Or the you talk about incongruence, they're the wellness influencers that are partnered with cocktail companies. I mean, it's fine. You like tequila, have your tequila, I guess. Can we do that? I mean, we're not sponsored bleed. I know, but we really should do that. Can we do somebody welcome?

SPEAKER_05 30:58

Welcome to disordered. This is episode 171, sponsored by Marlborough Cigarettes.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

100% Cas Amigos tequila. Wow. Well, you could get better smoking and drinking, it's true. Someone in our comment section just said three-year-olds agree, F vegetables.

SPEAKER_05 31:14

Three-year-olds don't have anxiety disorders. That's true. Maybe there's something to it.

SPEAKER_04 31:18

Well, they that's right. They also refuse to eat vegetables, so there you go. Uh it is proven. Um, what else? I got another audio did it anyway. We could listen to it. It's pretty inspiring. Kind of dig it. So let's do it. This one's from a place I don't think we've heard from yet. So here we go.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Hi, Tash and Drew. My name is Lena. Feel free to use my name. I'm sending you two Did It Anyway stories, all the way from Saudi Arabia. Uh, I've been struggling with anxiety for many years. I worked with a wonderful therapist, but she eventually became too busy to continue our sessions. So I tried two other therapists without much success and began to feel that I might be stuck with anxiety forever. Then I joined a gym near my apartment and found your podcast while looking for something to listen to during my exercises. Uh, it has been one of the best things I discovered this year. I realized I had been techniqueifying therapists, and your your podcast helped me understand that I could still make progress without finding the perfect therapist. That's for my first edit, anyway. Uh my second edit, anyway, happened uh during an on-call shift as I'm a respiratory medicine fellow. Although I did not feel prepared to perform bronchoscopies on that day, my consultant asked me to join him and to do them. So during the first procedure, while performing biopsies, a biopsy caused remarkable bleeding and vital instability. The bleeding was controlled eventually, and thankfully the patient recovered and went home on the same day. However, the experience made me reluctant to proceed with the next case. Uh my consultant encouraged me again, so I did it anyway, and this time everything went smoothly. Uh I then continued through a heavy 24-hour encode. Uh it was exhausting and far outside my comfort zone, but I was proud that I kept going and did what none anxious me would do. Thank you for making your podcast accessible and affordable. I'm a big fan of the sound effects and the sense of humor in it. Your work is helping people around the world, the world, myself included. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_05 33:22

Hello, Saudi Arabia. Nice to hear from you. I like that as well. That's so good. Well done. And not only anxious, but like oh, or I can go back to now conducting a bronchioscope.

SPEAKER_04 33:35

No pressure. I'm just really anxious today, and I also have to save a person's life.

SPEAKER_05 33:40

I say that sometimes, and these people that beat themselves up if I have an anxiety disorder, then they return to something I would never imagine myself doing in a million years. I know, it's crazy, right?

SPEAKER_03 33:50

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 33:52

That's a pretty stressful job. Good job, Lena. Thank you for sharing too. Techniqueying techniquing a therapist, trying to find the perfect therapist to make all the feelings go away. No, you did that. Well done. I I I absolutely love that. Also, you're a big fan of the sound effects, so please make me give her a regulators. And can I also get a Billy Mace?

SPEAKER_04 34:12

Uh yeah, we can have both of those. Let's do Billy Mace first because we don't hear from him enough.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

But I'm not done yet.

SPEAKER_04 34:17

And let's go with regulators. Wait, wait, wait. Hang on. The one we're most famous for, clearly. So happy that I put that one in.

SPEAKER_05 34:27

Oh, you've got that on the on the board.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

It's on the soundboard now. Yeah, it's on a button. Yeah, so really good. But these are all good. And for those of you who responded to my little Instagram prompt months ago and sent these all in, thank you. Because, you know, we've been sort of saving them, and I think these are important conversations. Nobody blames anybody. There's somebody in and there's a person at Studio Rodens who's sharing other stuff. He actually was talking about one of the supplements and ingredient said 100% glucose energized by the vibration of certain herbs. That was an ingredient. So, like this is what we're up against. But you know, he he is very open about sharing, which I appreciate this guy. And you know, I feel stupid just saying that because I spent $700 on this.

SPEAKER_05 35:04

Oh, don't feel stupid at all. Nobody should feel stupid.

SPEAKER_04 35:07

Yeah. And when we are desperate and when we are hurting, it's normal. That's why we talk about this sort of stuff. Because you're just easily hooked in. Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. I spent money on a a program that came in the form of audio CDs, got my money back. I've talked about that before. Audio CDs. Audio CDs. It was like six CDs, and this person and the first CD told me that what I'm supposed to do wasn't help me, of course, just recorded on the C that. If you if you're having panic attacks in the grocery store or driving the grocery store, which was me, I'm like, okay, this is cool. I need this. Run to the frozen fruit section, open the freezer, and stick your head in. If it's if it's okay, take off your jacket. You know, like and I remember thinking, oh, this is not right. And as it turns out, that person wrote another book after that that everybody knows. That's all I'm gonna say. Really?

SPEAKER_05 35:54

Yeah, I see that a lot. Uh how many reels are there on Instagram? Like, I'm a clinical psychologist, and here's insert safety behavior, insert compulsion. 100%. It's just like, like, no.

SPEAKER_04 36:06

I'm I'm currently being bitched, pitched, bitch. It's true. Uh pitched really hard by a woman who is uh, I guess, was a pharmacist and now she's a functional medicine practitioner. Well, I have a bone to pick with the functional medicine. Our audience will be a good idea. What does that mean? What's a functional medicine? No, they're all about the root cause, and like, but medicine isn't helping you, it's only treating symptoms. We have to get to the root cause. Everything has a root cause, and you can optimize your function. They're the worst.

SPEAKER_05 36:29

I've never met anyone who's who's found a singular root cause. 100%.

SPEAKER_04 36:33

But this person is pitching hard to be on the anxious truth, my other podcast. You know why? She has a seven-second, she figured it out. It's seven seconds that from the time you have a scary thought to the time you're right back to just living your life. Seven seconds. She figured it out. No one else knows this, and she is pitching hard to get on my in a you will wait to get on my microphone until the sun runs out of helium. That's it. You are never getting hot. But this is the kind of stuff that gets dangled in front of our audience by this book. Seven seconds.

SPEAKER_05 37:05

Yeah, we get it all the time. Can you imagine actually if you did discover the seven-second thing? Yeah. Would have sat here and she's received like the Nobel Prize. I'll tell you what, it wasn't trashing her own.

SPEAKER_04 37:16

If this functional medicine practitioner gets the Nobel Prize, I I will come on and say, I'm sorry. I will publicly apologize. But for now, I do understand that that's you know, it's okay. You're susceptible if you're hurting. It's okay to want to feel better. We say that all the time, and it makes us susceptible to that sort of stuff. So don't feel bad about yourself if you went for one of these things and it didn't help you.

SPEAKER_05 37:37

Absolutely. And and it's okay to feel aggrieved as well if you feel like you've had done things and felt it's okay to feel angry and stuff. I I certainly did have spent a lot of money. I was angry at the system. I was angry just in general. I had I had well-meaning therapists as well trying to help me, and they're just trying their best. And you know, it was angry at something, maybe it's the you know, in the age of so much information. Uh, when I write, I I loved writing same time next week, though. If anyone's not read my latest book, I absolutely love it. There's loads of ranty stuff in there about it. But yeah, it's in an age of so much information, we we don't ironically don't get access to the right information. But it's really nice when you hear people that suddenly stumble across this podcast and then like like in the middle of Saudi Arabia in the gym, or who should I listen to? You know, uh Guns and Roses, or these two idiots, and and there we go, you know, and um, and then you just find you stumble across it that way. Guns and roses, which which I do love.

SPEAKER_04 38:34

How about we do one more did it anyway from our community? Because I wanted to read this one. I think it's really great. Um and then we'll sort of wrap it up. So we weren't gonna name the person's name, but this person is in our studio studio audience right now, and uh, she said, I was really excited to share this. A few days ago I posted that I had some friends coming over for the weekend, and I was so worried I wouldn't be able to keep up with all the plans because of anxiety, but I did it all. We did so much this weekend. A few weeks ago, I would have never thought I'd be able to do it. We went hiking, sea swimming to the sauna, kayaking. I'm exhausted reading it. Stayed out late in bars, and I even had to do all the driving, which I hate. Some days I was anxious, I was running on low sleep from the late nights and low on energy from all the activities, but I still did it. Anxiety kept telling me I couldn't, but I proved it wrong. I even ate junk food before bed and woke up feeling great the next morning. See, that's how I tell you. I'm not saying it was easy. There were definitely times I wanted to run away, but I stayed. I kept showing up, and I'm so proud of myself for that. I'm not gonna lie, I don't feel great today now that they've all gone home. I feel a bit sad, exhausted, and I have a sore throat, so I might be getting sick, and I'm struggling with motivation, knowing it's back to work tomorrow. But that's okay. This weekend just confirmed to me that anxiety is a liar. It can come with me if it wants, but it doesn't get to tell me what to do and can't do anymore. A few weeks ago, I generally didn't think I'd be able to do a weekend like this. Now I know I can, and uh well, she said very nice things about us, but really it's about this person showing the courage to do it, and definitely round of applause for sure. Thank you for sharing that person in our audience.

SPEAKER_05 40:01

Oh, well done. Yeah, really good. I'm gonna eat junk food before bed. Another Billy Mays, please.

SPEAKER_04 40:07

Oh, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

But I'm not done yet.

SPEAKER_04 40:09

Kayaking, bars, junk food.

SPEAKER_05 40:12

So good. I love eating junk food before bed. I know it's not good for me. Right. I am an adult. I don't need someone to tell me that it's not good for me, but I love doing it. It's great fun. Have you ever had the joy of just absolutely smashing a pizza and then lying down? Yes, instantly regretting it, getting abdominal pains and being like, oh, this is so bad. Why did I do that? Standing up trying to loosen up the load and then go in and get another slice of pizza just when you're getting you've just freed up enough to go to sleep. You're like, oh, there's some extra room for a pepperoni in there. You eat it, rinse and repeat, lie down, more abdominal pains. Then you swore you're not gonna you swear you're not gonna do it again. Get loads of rennies and fizzy water, just get it down. You think, oh, all that all that fighting and struggling was quite exhausting. It's not worth it, right? Maybe I should get maybe I should get another slice of pizza to it, dude.

SPEAKER_04 41:00

I have if I had to scroll way back, I have text messages from you at like my 9 p.m., which is like your 2 a.m. Proudly proclaiming that you're eating pizza in bed.

SPEAKER_05 41:10

You go you go, dude. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 41:12

You do you, brother.

SPEAKER_05 41:13

That's all I like it. That's me living. I I genuinely look at everyone else when I'm in that moment. I think I am winning here. Yeah, I am winning.

SPEAKER_04 41:22

I am a grown-ass adult and I will eat pizza in bed if I want to.

SPEAKER_05 41:25

No, yeah, exactly. Or you've had your your your your nice gut-friendly salad. Good for you. I'm not. I'm in bed eating pizza, playing computer games like a big child, and I'm winning.

SPEAKER_04 41:37

Sometimes there's you know what that is winning. I have a couple of days off in front of me, which is great. I take a few days, I need a few days off. And then I do that whole like, wait, I don't have any sessions tomorrow today. I'm just gonna talk bollocks on a microphone with Josh. So, like, I'm gonna stay up late. I'm gonna watch stupid YouTube videos, I'm gonna like read books. I'm just I'm not going to bed early. I'm gonna be exhausted tomorrow, and that's winning. So sometimes it is that. Like, uh, I want to stay up late and have some fun time. It's just what is fun now, though.

SPEAKER_05 42:05

I also think as well, though, like when I'm on my deathbed, I'm not gonna look back and be like, oh, I was so punctual for bedtime. Oh yeah, I wish I had sucked. I'll be like, Yeah, I was like, so glad I did that.

SPEAKER_04 42:14

I wish I had optimized my bevel app recovery score more. No, no one says that. It's so true, though, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 42:22

I know, and it's so weird, too, though.

SPEAKER_05 42:23

Optimizing in the moment, and just like it's so stupid. Like you look back and be like, eh, it's weird, right? You're an adult, eat healthy, balanced, exercise, eat fiber. We get it, you know, like you have a bit of flexibility. And I would argue it's probably better for your overall health to have a bit of flexibility in there because you're happier and you're chilled.

SPEAKER_04 42:41

We should look at anti-diet culture because it's there's really great messages in that. Like, food is supposed to be enjoyable. Once in a while, you have a piece of cake, you have some ice cream, you eat pizza and bet. Like, if you are not enjoying your life and having the flexibility to experience all those different things, then what's the point? Like optimizing to the point where you're that dude that tries to not die. Like, that's what kind of life is that? You know, that that uh what I forget his name is some tech entrepreneur that's spending like millions of dollars a year. He has he takes hundreds of pills. He's in few, I think he infused himself with his son's cells or something. It's just really freaky, and like, okay, yeah, he's reversing.

SPEAKER_05 43:16

That's not the beginning of a superhero movie where he's the villain.

SPEAKER_04 43:20

Right. So, like, but otherwise, the flexibility to and to just be with all of those different experiences and sometimes choose crappy ones, and who knows how it's going to turn out. I stayed up way too late last night, ate snacks at night. I was defiant about bedtime, and the stupid watch was like, hey, you're 85% recovered. Your HRV is through the roof. I'm like, really? So, anyways.

SPEAKER_05 43:42

Before we wrap it up as well, thanks for tuning in. Uh, someone in the studio audience has asked, I need tips. How do you eat anything in bed with a dog? Well, it depends on the breed of dog and what it tastes like. If it's quite a sour dog, then you need to get to balance it with cream. If it's a large, fleshier dog, then you probably want a kind of a salt kind of oh, right. I this is my autism. I read it as you wanted to eat the dog with something. And on that note, three years of sending your own questions and did it anyways, you can do a disordered.fm. Oh my god. Follow us on social media, I'm anxietyjosh, and true is the.anxious.truth. Absolutely. If you'd like to be part of the studio audience and look at other wealth of resources, post your own did it anyways. Uh, you can join the community, disordered community at at disordered.fm. Uh, if you would like to read any of our books, Drew's got some really good books. Uh, we've got The Disordered Guide to Health Anxiety by Disordered Press, that's on Amazon. Uh, my latest book, uh, same time next week, and and how does that make you feel is available. And yeah, anything else? I don't know. I think that's it, man.

SPEAKER_04 44:47

You did a really good job. That was 20 solid seconds of pitching. So I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_05 44:51

Yeah, yeah. I just need to get away from the dog eating thing because I feel a bit cringe, embarrassed by it. But don't edit it out, it can stay there.

SPEAKER_04 44:58

We'll leave it. That's fine. We will get it anyway. Cancellation PETA will be pounding on our doors within minutes of this episode being released. So, as it is a thing. But all right, well, thanks guys for hanging out. Come back next week for more inappropriateness, because I'm sure we'll have some, and maybe we'll help too. We'll see. See you next week.