Anxiety and The Obsession With Optimizing EVERYTHING (Episode 179)

Listener 0:00

Hi Josh and Drew, this is Heather. Feel free to use my name. I have a quick question. Can pushing through ever become a compulsion? Um, I'm a mom, and being tired is a trigger for me. Triggers um just health OCD and anxiety. And because I've worked so hard, I refuse to let OCD and anxiety rule my life. And so I just push through anytime I'm tired. I make sure I take my kids wherever they need to go. I make sure I do whatever I need to do. And I just refuse to ask my husband to help at all because, you know, I'm just so afraid of letting anxiety win. And I feel like it's definitely become some sort of compulsion where I'm so confused between when would a normal person, well maybe not a normal person, a non-disordered person, know when they genuinely need to take a break. And now that I'm talking about it, maybe I'm realizing that I'm afraid of OCD and anxiety getting worse if I do take a break. Um, if I do ask for help. And so maybe that's the actual fear here. And maybe I do need to just stay home one time. I don't know. Um but yeah, I was just wondering if you have any thoughts on that. Thank you for all that you do.

Drew Linsalata 1:46

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 179. Uh today we are going to talk about optimization OCD, the need to optimize everything, which we saw clearly in our question. Thank you, Heather, for sending in the question because it it sparked today's topic. It's a good topic. Uh, I am Drew Linsolata, one half of Disordered. I'm a therapist that specializes in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders in OCD, practicing in New York, uh, former sufferer of the stuff we talk about here on Disorder, uh, four-time author on this topic, with, in fact, a co-author with my co-host. And uh yeah, gonna chill out here. One of my favorite hours of the week when we get to record in front of our studio audience, also. And I'm joined as always by hi everyone.

Josh Fletcher 2:27

Uh, my name's Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders, and I'm based in Manchester in the UK. Previous sufferer, write books about it, yap on about it, and stuff like that. Looking forward to today's topic. And thank you to the question sender inner uh for sharing that. Do I push on? Do I push through? Actually, you kind of answered your own question. And then actually, maybe I need to kind of stop and sit with feelings. And I like that realization as you're speaking it aloud. It's really, really cool.

Drew Linsalata 3:02

Yeah, it was pretty solid, right? Uh, and I think this is a common experience in our community, like people who listen to the podcast, the literal community on our studio audience. There's the fear of doing it wrong, and it shows up as this. I must never, never do recovery wrong. I must never make a mistake, I must make sure I never ever avoid, must make sure I never ever do a safety behavior. And then, you know, the other side of optimization is even outside of recovery, just trying to optimize everything sleep, nutrition, fitness, like mental toughness, everything.

Josh Fletcher 3:33

Absolutely. I see this in my practice over the years and still to kind of do now. And it's um, there's two two topics we're gonna look at today. Optimization, OCD. Am I optimizing everything to uh for to tackle my anxiety disorder and I need to get everything right, you know? And the other side, which is am I just optimizing everything because I I compulsively, yeah, like Drew said, mess around with my fitness, my sleep, my you know, my diet, my timetable, I optimize holidays, I optimize hobbies, I optimize absolutely everything, you know, um, and that can become quite compulsive and exhausting. Um, you know, optimize blood pressure optimization. And so there's two different sides to this coming. Uh uh there's optimization OCD in terms of very similar to kind of recovery OCD, but mostly just I'm just trying to optimize myself uh or push through because ultimately, right at the core, and like the question sender in a said, you know, I I don't really like the feeling that I have to sit with when I don't push through or optimize. Um, I drew, I had an argument with Drew beforehand. I wanted three audio did it anyways today. Um, but Drew then said, I loosely paraphrase, but that's not optimal for the episode. To which I said, Well, that's exactly why we should do three.

Drew Linsalata 4:56

It's a non-optimized episode. So let's these are all good ones, so let's hear the first.

Listener 5:01

Hello, Drew and Josh. This is Junior from California, and you could use my name. Um, I'm sending in a did it anyways. I'm a small business owner, and today I had to open up my shop from 10 a.m. to 7 p.m. And today on my drive from work, I had an adrenaline adrenaline rush, and everything was telling me to go back home and close shop for today because I was feeling anxious, but I know that wasn't I know that's what I'm not supposed to do. And I got through it. I even though I was feeling anxious, I know what I had to do and I came to work, and even though it did last quite a while, even while I was at work, um, I stayed the full hours that I had to stay. I was alone that day, it was a Monday, so it was kind of a slow day, and I did it anyways, even though I was feeling very very anxious, and everything in my mind was saying something's wrong or something bad's gonna happen. I knew that it was just anxiety, and I was accepting it, and I knew I had to get on with my day even though I'm anxious, and I did it anyways. Thank you.

Josh Fletcher 6:17

Absolutely did it anyway. Love it. Oh, I love that, love that day-to-day stuff as well. I needed to open my small business and well done. Values and stuff like that. I hope it went well. Hope it went on, keep going. You've proven you can do it. Lovely.

Drew Linsalata 6:29

The lesson in that is oh, the prediction I can't do this is always wrong. Appears to be always wrong.

Josh Fletcher 6:34

So anticipatory anxiety sucks. It is never, never I can prove I was down in London on Sunday um to watch uh Newcastle play Crystal Palace away. And I've been there for the last six years in a row, never seen us win. So naturally, my anticipatory anxiety was you're gonna get battered. You know what, Drew? It was wrong. Oh, we won. Wow. I was like, I can't I can't believe that. What's going on? So that kind of yeah, and it was there utterly convinced genuinely. I walked in like, oh, interesting. We cannot predict the future. Well done. I hope you had a good, uh um prosperous day as a as a as a business owner as well.

Drew Linsalata 7:15

Absolutely. Let's connect it to our optimization theme. I I think in that situation for junior, it was oh, this feeling tells me something. This feeling, I draw a conclusion from this feeling, and I think that drives optimization too. If I this feeling means I'm not doing enough, not doing it right. I'm I'm making a mistake, I could feel it, it just feels uncomfortable, so that must mean that something is wrong. It proves that something is wrong. Does it though?

Josh Fletcher 7:40

If you're a person who is constantly finicking around with supplements and hyper analyzing food and what you eat and your workout routine, and your ice baths, and your conventional wellness, and your ayahuasca's and your seaweed salads, and your uh all this stuff, oils and trinkets, and getting up at 5 a.m. and ice baths, and just and just all this stuff. Ask yourself why are you doing it? Why am I doing that? Now, some people do it and just to kind of silence Craig the critic, like you should be doing more. And I should is an anxious thought, by the way. Most people think it's what if, but actually, I should is an anxious thought. I should be doing that, I should be doing that, I should be doing that. And some people can really, really like get get hooked on it, and it can actually be its own theme of OCD or bring out OCD traits. The obsession is I'm not optimized, and the compulsion is to constantly seek certainty that you feel optimized. Uh, and during that, you silence Craig the critic because you're doing something, but it comes at a cost. You could be exhausted, you're actually missing things in front of you. You're in some of the biggest joys in life are being lazy and doing nothing. I'm doing a round table for the community app called Learning to Be Bored, a couple of weeks. Massive one. Now we're gonna have a good discussion there. But in general, it's like what am I running from in general? Is that and usually it's it feels like the question sender in. It's like, oh, if I just keep pushing through this computer, because what happens if you don't? What happens if you don't optimize? Uh, and often you know, you're listening to disordered, we're at episode 179. We're always like, Well, why do you find out?

Drew Linsalata 9:28

Yeah, and it built optimization, and and I by the way, I think if you are the type of person who is drawn to that sort of stuff anyway, even if you're a non-anxious person who does that sort of stuff, then you add the anxiety disorder or the OCD, and it's like rocket fuel, it just makes it worse. It ties right in. We have a person in our studio audience that says after her first panic attack, she did exactly that. Started acupuncture, Chinese herbs, working out, worried, like cut out caffeine. I gotta optimize everything. And I think it ties together because even outside of anxiety recovery or desensitization, you know, yeah, I want to, I just want to be the most the best possible version of myself. We hold that up as a virtue, and and it is to a certain extent. And then how am I supposed to get better? Uh like clearly, it gives me a better chance of getting better if I am perfectly optimized, right? But also, no, because that's rigidity, like, and we we want the opposite of rigidity.

Josh Fletcher 10:22

Also, one of my favorite buttons on our soundboard begins with ah, do we have it?

Drew Linsalata 10:26

We do. Regulators!

Josh Fletcher 10:29

Love it. These this often ties into that optimization. So you give someone with we're encouraging people with anxiety, so you fear panic, intrusive thoughts, all that to get better with uncertainty. That all feelings are welcome, that all states are welcome, but behave how you want to feel, to ride waves or as Claire Week said, float through waves, stuff like that. We want all experiences and feelings to be acceptable. But if you struggle with optimization, OCD, and you're bombarded with social media stuff, and even in the wellness and therapy, some therapy spheres, this word regulating, I need to regulate myself. And I'll never ever say regulate myself. As someone who is autistic and I get sensory overload, I never say regulating because it is such a bitter taste in my mouth from it. Because it it tells you that there's a goal state you have to get to. But as we know, and you know, if you've got a struggle with OCD, panic, stuff like that, you're more likely to have that nice enjoyed state when all feelings are welcome. But people with optimization OCD will often see that as a goal. I need to optimize myself so I hit regulation. And it's like, trust your body to kind of regulate itself. Obviously, if you've got conditions and stuff, you know, diabetes and and and this and your and your medic medicine dependent, yeah, you do need to intervene. But we're talking about mental, cognitive, and physical compulsions where you're resisting anxiety and trying to optimize yourself out of a feeling.

Drew Linsalata 11:54

Yeah, I I think optimization OCD, whether it's in the recovery sphere or whatever, it it's still a control, right? It's like uh Yeah, I'm doing acceptance, I'm doing willful tolerance, but why else would you optimize other than because if I don't and I think I made a mistake, then I might either go backwards or not go forward fast enough or not reach the end state, which is I'm trying to get rid of this. I I don't like the feeling I'm having right now, so I am compelled to do it perfectly, so I stop having this feeling. It's like, but it's the opposite of what we're really after. And I think I have to optimize our recovery is just another word for uh yeah, I'm accepting and tolerating, but I'm really not. I'm I'm just trying to find the fastest possible way to get these feelings to go away and never come back. Also, not learning how to fail. Right. Which which we are going to fail. I failed every day in my recovery, right? Like to a certain way. Your barber failed last week. We haven't had a good hair joke in a while. See, I appreciate that. Actually, you know what I'm gonna give you for that? Applause. Wow, we've been really lax on the hair jokes. He did.

Josh Fletcher 13:01

There'll be people that have tuned into disorder years ago when it first started, like, oh, silly haircut jokes. Three years, four year old years later. We are the content doesn't change. No, the sounds are still the same.

Drew Linsalata 13:13

It's 100% correct. I'm all right with that. I'm all right with that. Yeah, a lot of a lot of failing happens in the you're failing, air quotes, in the recovery process. And it's okay, it's part of the process is learning to be okay with the fact that it's not gonna go perfectly. I'm gonna have feelings I don't like, I'm gonna feel like I did it wrong, I'm gonna be mad at myself, I'm gonna be disappointed. Okay, that's a lap. You don't have to optimize that out of the process. That's crazy.

Josh Fletcher 13:36

You see a lot everywhere the the which way it comes with the stress jug comes in. Yeah, and we're gonna talk about the stress drug before we play another did it anyway, because I want another one. Sure. Uh I and what I want, I get. Um, but uh general, when you think about the stress jug, and if you've never done all that, um, you know, the more you try to optimize, actually, it creates stress. So you think, oh, if I'm optimizing, I'm if I'm making my life efficient and doing stuff, then that's good for me and my wellness, right? But actually, look how many do's that you add to your life. And also, for every action that you do to optimize, you know, and someone mentioned like Andrew Huberman in the comments. He he's he's the king of optimization. You know, get up and stare at the sun at a 13-degree angle. No, thanks. I'm gonna stay in bed and not do that. I'll be a lot happier. I know I will be a lot happier if I did that. Uh, my wellness is doing those kind of things. But it's just like each time you get up and do a list and a ritual, particularly OCD heads, of all these things that you need to do. Say you do 30 things as part of your ritual to optimize yourself. That's 30 messages back to your own brain and self that signals you at your default resting state is not good enough. Yeah. And if you do that every week, don't expect that stress jug to empty. It's just the 30 reminders every day that you at your default state is not good enough. So lie in bed and have ice cream for breakfast if you want, because you're an adult. You know what's right.

Drew Linsalata 15:06

100%. One of our audience members, I love this. She says, I thought I was optimizing my nutrition too hard yesterday. So she added honey to the bun she was eating, just to be safe. What a delicious way to interrupt my thoughts. That's that's what I'm talking about right there. I'm having some.

Josh Fletcher 15:20

Also, it's defiant. I love that defy. I love a bit of defying.

Drew Linsalata 15:23

I'm gonna kick it right in the face. Like, uh, nope, we're not optimizing today. Do you want another audio did it anyway? Would it make your make you happier? Yes. I think it would. So let's play this one.

Listener 15:35

Hey Josh and Drew, Moose from Canada here wanted to share my did it anyway with you guys. Diagnosed with GAD, have a history of fear, fear, agoraphobia, some elements of panic disorder over the last 10 years, but I've managed to work through them and live a good life overall, experiencing peaks and valleys during big life events. Recently I was given a new work assignment that involved some travel and a new project, and immediately my body went into stress mode about fear of failure, not knowing what to do, imposter syndrome, even thinking about changing jobs just to avoid it. Funny enough, nothing had happened on the assignment yet, but my stress struck out full pretty quickly. This past week I had to go to the client's site for three days of meetings and workshops a few hours away from home. While this wouldn't normally be an issue, my stressed and anxious mind had other plans. My mind was scheming up any way to avoid going, but I refused to buy into it. I was filled with fear, anxiety, lack of appetite, racing heart, derealization, dizziness, you name it, it was there. As hard as it was, with moments of wanting to pack up and leave, I kept moving and grooving through each day, participating where I could. On the last day in a conference room with 20 people, I was feeling dizzy, my heart was racing, and I felt a little heart palpitation, and my brain just went into overdrive about having a heart attack away from home, and that resulted in a panic attack. My first one in a few years. Through all the peaked adrenaline, I just sat there and the quiet part of my brain reminded myself that what will be will be, while the loud part of my brain was screaming at me to run away, but I refused to do so. While the peak passed, the next two hours were filled with a panic hangover, shaking, some derealization, you name it. Since then, I've had a few moments of worry about agoraphobia, but I've done what I can continue to do what non-anxious me would do. I even attended a college football game at the largest stadium in the US by capacity. Drew, you might know this, Josh. I don't expect you to know that. Anxiety and panic ebbing and flowing the whole way to the point where it eventually just stopped. But I was not letting it stop me. While this is hard, I just feel that I'm resensitized and we'll get back to a desensitized state in due time. I've even gone back to listen to an older episode of Beers on this very topic. Having you both in my mind during these times has been super helpful. Thanks for all that you do, and I'm looking forward to the next episode.

Speaker 5 17:31

Right. Go moose. Yeah, go moose. Well done. Well done. Should be proud of yourself.

Drew Linsalata 17:37

Even went to a game at the big house, biggest stadium we have, like 120,000 people. You know what that gets? It gets this.

Speaker 5 17:44

But I'm not done yet.

Drew Linsalata 17:45

Just kept rolling.

Josh Fletcher 17:48

Oh, well done. He's not done yet.

Speaker 7 17:50

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 17:51

Um the as as we were listening to the uh um wonderful dinner anyway from Moose, and people were discussing in the audience, but like uh neuroscience influencers, they tap into people's optimization OCD. That's right. You know, you know, if I stand on the treadmill at exactly this allow amount and do this level of cardio, I'm just like, I look at all this, and this is again the downside of social media. Social media is great, depends on what you see. Yep. But the downside is that if you've got optimization OCD, your algorithm will know you have optimization OCD.

Speaker 7 18:24

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 18:25

Or traits. So you're gonna start seeing more and more of that. Yep. You know, and to the point where I literally, my friend taught showed me this the other day, because I don't go on Instagram that much anymore, but when I do, I've got a safe feed. And um, it was a woman putting an a tube from a a hanged bag of coffee and stuck a tube into her colon and gave herself a coffee enema. And I'm like, I I I I can't I can't I and I just closed it back off and I went and hugged a tree, rang my loved ones, and thought, yeah, let's go back to basics.

Drew Linsalata 19:06

Yeah, but that's where I draw the line, says one person watching us record.

Josh Fletcher 19:10

Yeah. There's so many people giving themselves coffee enemas they actually had to do a study enemies to show everyone this isn't good for you. Like and two people died from giving themselves coffee animals.

Drew Linsalata 19:23

I mean, at least by the supermarket coffee, it's the cheap coffee, right? Unless unless you're really bougie and then your coffee enemies are like specialty Ethiopian roasts or something.

Josh Fletcher 19:32

Oh no, these they're they were the these cut these coffee anima people, of course, aren't sharing the knowledge because they think that they uh that they're actually bestowing helpful stuff to the world. They sell their own random. Oh, yeah, now I get it. Now I understand.

Drew Linsalata 19:47

Yeah, you're right. The neuroscience or neuroscience, that's not true. Neuroscience like influencers offer the promise of optimization. But shout out to my friends Birta McDonald, you know, Birta, and Anna Lund, who like they are out there fighting the good fight. Like, no, no, no, neuroscience never said that. Neuroside didn't say that. That study doesn't say that. Actually, the study said the opposite of that, but this person decided to study anyway, so gotta be really careful about that.

Josh Fletcher 20:09

Yeah, no, there's some really good stuff out there as well. No, genuine genuinely like neuroscience is great, you know, like stuff like if you want to be neuroplastic, more neurotoplasticity in your brain to rewire old habits and compulsions, exercise can help with that. Sure. You know, if you go into stuff like that, like if you're uh a long walk before stuff or even walking through stuff, that that tells you that your brain becomes neuro more neuro uh neuroplastic, uh and more easy to more easy, easier to rewire the behavior and association with that. You still got to do the work, you know. Exercise isn't taking away feelings, but it helps, you know, doing those things and the rest, stuff you know, exercise, sleep, whatever. Don't eat 10 cheeseburgers before bed, and you might sleep better.

Drew Linsalata 20:55

You know, like that kind of thing. That's my my Tuesday is ruined. Nine is the optimal that was my plan for tonight with 10 cheeseburgers. But you can if you want. That's true, you really can. So, where where does it get really difficult for the optimizer? Whether you're optimizing your recovery or like ultimately, if we're talking about it as like an obsession and a compulsion, well, well, we have to learn to not do the compulsion. You know, so sometimes we have to uh literally break the optimization. That's the exposure, right? That generates the discomfort. And then the compulsion is don't fix it. Like feel unoptimized, make a mistake, go ahead. I I will often tell my therapy clients, don't get better today. Like just just don't get better today. Don't do it. And sometimes that is like, wait, what? Like, you know, you cannot be recovering and improving every single day, every minute of every year. Like it's not possible to do that. So don't get better today. And it's often Don't get better. Yeah. Odd, weird stares, like, wait, what? Uh uh again, I you need a break from this, so don't don't get better.

Josh Fletcher 21:55

Um There's a there's a the the the sleep summit chapter in In my latest book, I think I can't remember, it was one of the last two. I think same time next week. I wrote a chapter about being invited to a sleep summit. They're like, We sit on the panel to talk about sleep. And this is the exact kind of and how many people here have had sleep OCD and obsessed with sleep? And this falls under optimization. If I don't feel get enough sleep, if I don't get eight hours, I'll either get panic or I won't be competent, or people might reject me, or whatever. You fall under this. And I remember writing this chapter in my book where I'm at the end of a panel, and I was like, you need to do this, and magnesium sulfate and lavender oil and whatever. And at the end, I was just like, no, as a therapist, what do you recommend? And I'm like, just stop trying to sleep.

Speaker 7 22:43

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 22:43

All this is resistance compulsions. You're trying to force something that thrives the best when you leave it the F alone. You know, you don't notice the moment. You can't force sleep. It just happens when you're relaxed and thinking about something else. You know? Um, I often it happens to me when I'm listening to The Anxious Truth. I just Just nod off.

Drew Linsalata 23:04

Josh's on a roll today. Nine seconds in. You are catching me. It was like a Pearl Harbor day for me. I'm not even aware. And it's he's just buzzing in and strafing my battleships. What is going on here? It is true. Sometimes I fall asleep editing my own podcast. But I somebody just said, I'm always checking, yeah, I'm always checking my aura ring for sleep stats. Yeah, throw away that ring. Like, or at least put it in there.

Josh Fletcher 23:26

Aura rings put. Don't get me wrong. If you, if, if you for obsessive compulsive people, which is pretty much 99% of this community, yeah. Be careful not to get pulled into the optimization. Did you do it, Drew? What were some of your examples?

Drew Linsalata 23:40

Um, for me, the optimization, see, it was hard. I couldn't really uh even if I tried to optimize my sleep. I did try to optimize sleep, it wasn't working. Like, but I got off of that pretty quick. I guess I'm not, I'm really not an optimizer by nature, so I didn't get hooked too much into it. I was just stuck trying to not panic and not feel bad. But I I I don't think I fell into, admittedly, I don't think I have was an optimizer.

Josh Fletcher 24:03

So I kind of kind of oh uh this I see it all the time. Now think about it now. There's the there's a huge overlapping, there's not even a Venn Venn diagram, they're all in the same circle. Yeah. If you're someone who tracks your sleep, your blood pressure, all that stuff with fitness watches and all that, your VO2 maxes, your your food, and you're tracking all that, you're trying to get it right. So you're the same person who, when it comes to anxiety desensitization, to ask yourself, Am I getting it right? But there's no singularity, it's just that you're practicing an attitude, will for tolerance, surrounding floating. And if you're someone who listens to this going, yeah, but am I am I doing it right? Am I doing it right? You're the optimizer. And we say, stop optimizing. It's okay. It's falling under that. It's just, I'm just going to experience it. All feelings are welcome. But am I getting it right? Well, then you're showing that that not all feelings are welcome. Does that make sense?

Drew Linsalata 24:56

Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And feelings can't do not have a right or a wrong. Like, if we look at like, oh, how am I feeling? Am I anxious? Am I sad? Am I happy? Am I but feelings do not cannot be you can't optimize feelings. Like, they don't have there is no right or wrong answer to how you feel inside. So just the question itself is flawed in the end. Yeah. Yeah. And like, no, I have to stop. It's not even like can I I, you know, can I answer that question? It's like, no, no, that's actually not even a question that needs to be asked. Am I doing it right? It's not, it's not right. Um, yeah. Yeah, right.

Josh Fletcher 25:32

That are all feelings welcome?

Drew Linsalata 25:35

Yeah, that's like a very strange question.

Josh Fletcher 25:36

Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean there's no it, there's no performance, yeah. But you can see how that question, but given the culture and stuff, and how that question can arise, how it's encouraged by by wellness culture and optimizing stuff like that. Um but and again, just a nod to all the other optimizations that some people like can't they're going into situations that require curiosity and nuance. So there's some people that want to optimize holidays or optimize everything. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with planning, stuff like that. But there are people there that will optimize everything from minute by minute, everything needs to be optimized, and it's a paradox because then you miss the joy of spontaneity, curiosity, and randomness.

unknown 26:18

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 26:18

Because you because that controlling nature to optimize everything, you bring that mindset into an anxiety disorder, and you wonder why you keep going round and round the hamster wheel of an anxiety disorder. It's the same driver that I've noticed in people. Yeah. Uh and um I this why to this day I don't think anxiety disorders, don't get me wrong, you know, it's genetic and you get those kind of things, but I've noticed a lot of people with anxiety disorders have very similar personality traits because of that.

Drew Linsalata 26:46

Kind of true, isn't it? Uh one of the other optimizations that sometimes we you know, and it's weird, for as two guys talking into microphones, and you know, we wrote a book, and yes, we have a community, so it it's true that it is disordered is not just something we do because we love, it is also a business to a certain extent. A terribly unsuccessful business, but okay, that's a different story. And I think sometimes it's the optimization is listening to podcasts like this, reading books. I need to read every book ever written in every word by Marty Steve and Sally Winston, or I'm not doing it right. So sometimes that like optimization OCD connected to OCD itself or anxiety recovery is I I am compulsively optimizing my use of the lingo, the jargon, the buzzwords, the theory. I need to know everything underneath it. Really, that's your therapist's job. Like it's good to know the principles, and we're always trying to teach the principles, but like digging in so you can recite, like, you know, Adrian Wells' S-Ref, you know, paper from 1997, that is not helping you at all. There is no useful, you know, that's there's nothing there that will help you.

Josh Fletcher 27:49

Yeah, and it's good, there's common compulsion in our community in OCD communities, resource gathering.

Speaker 7 27:54

Yeah.

Josh Fletcher 27:54

And it's resonating with people in the audience here, the studio audience. I've read so many books and listened to so many podcasts, and it's like, you know, ultimately, it's a doubt response. So you're gonna have to go and do exposures and scary things and and resist compulsions and resist, you know, like not caved intrusive thoughts. It requires you to lean into uncertainty, but the brain will go, you've not optimized yet. Yep.

Drew Linsalata 28:18

Yep.

Josh Fletcher 28:19

You've missed one more thing. Maybe there's a magic sentence in the in somewhere that you missed. Right. It's like, no, you have to you have to go in with doubt that uh, you know, we sort of spoke about uh did a a community we had a community chat in the app last week. Uh uh I I did one, you weren't there, Drew. Um I think you were in practice, but uh of course talking about the leap of faith, but you just have to, there's no matter how many thousands, you can't you can't stop optimizing yourself because it it almost becomes a distraction behavior, like, well, I feel like I'm doing something about it, but you know, uh I need to fully optimize myself before I go and do something scary. No, you don't, because all you've taught the brain there is that you can only do scary things when you're optimized. You can do scary things on an empty stomach, you know, dressed in rags, unshaven, smoking a cigarette, smoking a cigarette, sure, you know, bloodshot eyes, or whatever, you can still do scary things.

Drew Linsalata 29:18

You know, so seems unbelievable though to when people hear stuff like that. Like, no, that can't possibly be, but it but it kind of is, like, that's actually true. And optimization is a uh set of moving goalposts. I mean, US football with the goalposts, like it's never you can never be perfectly optimized because there's always the suggestion that you could do something else. Like, who wakes up in the morning and like I am perfectly optimized, I've done it, I've achieved it, I'm the perfect, like perfect Swiss watch version of myself. I'm good. Nobody, no one, no one, there's always something else. There's another book to read, another routine to try, another YouTube video, another thing to do.

Josh Fletcher 29:54

But social media tells you you you are because the the the coach that wakes up, you know, with an eight-pack and a five and by the way. I don't look at any of these with envy. I'm like, I get a lion tomorrow. I can't wait to be lazy. Um but they but they they show you the illusion that that's what you can be, but they're selling stuff.

Drew Linsalata 30:13

Right. And I mean honestly, dude, I think the same holds true in mental health, whether it's in specific anxiety or mental health in general. There's that promise of optimizing your mental health, whether it is the function of your brain, you can optimize your cognition and your ideation and your understanding, and like that is nonsense. Like, read like a philosopher. Yeah, you know, and we see it all the time. Journal like a philosopher, journal like the these are the habits of the most successful entrepreneurs and CEOs. Like, as if you can somehow optimize the way your brain works by reading the right number of books and listening to audiobooks at just the right accelerated speed and journaling a special way and taking notes. And uh, there's another one, like the note taking and knowledge, you know, who's gets stuck in the knowledge system or second brain.

Josh Fletcher 30:58

You're right, optimizing your knowledge, optimizing those things. It reminds me of that did uh that question last week. Uh I loved it. Like you know, I I went to do my exposures, but I didn't panic. I didn't optimally do my exposure. It's like it did find right, but it crept in then, didn't it? Yeah, you didn't hear last week's episode. It was like, uh, you know, I went to do exposure and I wanted to panic, but didn't panic, so I didn't do it right.

Drew Linsalata 31:23

No, you're just winning, just carry on. Yeah, it's all good. And whatever happened, like I I know it's such a stupid cliche thing, but I always say we're either winning or learning here. So, like, okay, it didn't go the way you want it. It there's still a lesson in there, there's still a lesson in capability, there's still a lesson in in flexibility, there's still a lesson to in in tolerance there. Like, whatever happens, happens. Somebody in the audience said, just step away and eat a pack of biscuits. Yeah, I'm I'm all for that.

Josh Fletcher 31:49

I would eat that. I would eat that. Would you like it? Would you like it? Would you like a dinner anyway in a pack of biscuits?

Drew Linsalata 31:54

I and yes, if they come together, yes.

Josh Fletcher 31:56

Um there's two actually. There's two, there's a there's a short one, but uh and a quite long one. I'm gonna read this one actually because I really enjoyed this. I don't that I don't think they give us they gave us permission to use the name. Um hi. I recently came across your podcast, specifically an episode on reframing. So this would be helpful for this episode. I've had lifelong panic attacks with episodes of agrophobia lasting weeks during my worst exacerbations. My official diagnosis came in 2002 when I was 20. But my first memories of panic started as early as four. Over the last 24 years, I've had six hospitalizations, multiple practitioners, medication, trial and error, and hundreds of hours of therapy. I have built a well-rounded toolbox that has allowed me to become a successful professional. What I have become best at is hiding my discomfort while I internally work through the waves of panic. The day after I listened to your reframing episode, I experienced a panic attack and recalled your advice. Instead of my initial instinct to run, I stopped and thought about your episode. In my mind, I was screaming, it's never going to end. That is always my first and repeating thought. I reframed to I get to see this through to the end and be proud. Then it was then it was this always ends more quickly than it first feels. And it worked. I don't know for sure it shortened my panic cycle, but it felt like it. The feeling was what was important. Thank you for doing what you do and being a lifeline to those of us out here taking the world despite our anxiety.

Drew Linsalata 33:39

Oh that was a great one. The reframe could be a powerful thing, couldn't it?

Josh Fletcher 33:46

Reframe your optimization. Yeah. I how get get good at doing nothing. Oh, you you've not been to the gym, you've not done your high rocks today, and blah blah. You know what? I practice doing nothing, which is something I've struggled to do with for years. And actually that's probably gonna help me and loved ones more than doing chin-ups and running through swamps.

Drew Linsalata 34:09

Yeah, I kind of dig that. Reframing of optimization. It's like, oh, I I need to do no the reframe would be, oh, yeah, I'm really afraid to do it wrong. I'm just afraid I'm doing it wrong. That's a great great reframe on optimization, I think. Yeah, exactly. Well done. Well done to that person. Yep. Um, what else we got on optimization OCD or optimization recovery or optimization? Anything.

Josh Fletcher 34:33

Uh I'm seeing a lot now in the age of AI, people are using AI to optimize and make everything so efficient for themselves, but at the same time, it then folds in on itself because one theme of optimization is then obsessing over how efficient you can be, which in itself is a paradox. Because then you end up stressing yourself out and obsessing over efficiency. Uh that definitely applies to people in this community.

Drew Linsalata 34:57

Yeah, I am with that's you, stop it. I I bet it especially shows up, and this is not an AI ramp, but like uh, how many people do the whole like I have to read the email 68 times before I send it, or I have to reread the text message before I send it? And now AI just rolls in and like I'll do I'll do that for you. So don't worry about it. You don't have to be uncomfortable. I'll make sure you're not uncomfortable about the words you wrote. No, okay. You want to write a reasonably cogent email, but that looping thing that so many people in our community do, where they have to keep I can't hit the send button. It takes me two hours to hit the send button. And if you're listening, uh you may get this. Oh, but no problem. I don't have to learn how to deal with that discomfort. I'll just outsource that to software, and then I'm good. I will never be triggered.

Josh Fletcher 35:39

My my yeah, outsourcing your discomfort to software. The hell health anxiety peeps or just social anxiety peeps, any uncertainty. I outsource that discomfort to software. Yeah, and each time we do that, we teach the brain, I can't cope, I can't sit with uncertainty. That has to be taken away from me. Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with seeking assurances, but I mean, honestly, now, Drew, every new inquiry I get, nine out of ten people I work with, they have a history of compulsion, heavily, compulsively using AI. It's becoming bad, you know. And I'm grateful that I didn't have AI back then. Don't get me wrong, when you're feeling desperate and in the mix of it and all that, uh, you know, but it's good, it's helping me calm. I I was able to sleep. I'm like, yeah, not teaching yourself that it was you that got through the uncertainty.

Drew Linsalata 36:30

It's almost I I got pitched the other day, you probably got the same pitch by some app that's all about again, it's a couple of like, you know, like clawed vibe-coding bros looking for a topic, and they came up with the perfect compan AI companion to optimize or make sure your relationship. This is an AI companion for relationships. So you can optimize your relationship by telling asking your AI companion on your phone about the conversation you had with your partner at dinner and what you're doing. Oh my god, can you imagine? Yeah, that's an actual thing. And I actually know people and we've been able to back away from that, who will who will bring every bit of discomfort in interpersonal relationships to an AI chat. Like they said this, and I said, or they'll feed the text message thread into AI to see if they did something wrong or what what AI thinks it means.

Josh Fletcher 37:21

I'm like, oh it's frightening to outsource even the moral arbitrary nature of uh a social interaction to outsource the the moral or whatever the outcome of that to something that isn't sentient.

Drew Linsalata 37:37

Yeah. And all because I can't tolerate the idea that I I don't know that relationships and communication are not black and white, they are not rigid, they are not perfectly you know, like predictable and knowable, and I I can't have that. So I will try to optimize that process so that I don't feel bad. It's like asking a monk about marriage advice. Good good comment. Really very very good. Uh we have someone who said, Oh, AI makes the the email thing worse. What if it goes rogue and curses out my boss?

Speaker 7 38:10

It's true, yeah.

Josh Fletcher 38:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, to try not to the AI is in the top-tier no-nos of disordered, yeah. Um, along with which you do have sort of the top tier no-nos, you know, like uh fitness. Uh nothing wrong with it. I wear a fitness watch. I'm interested in fitness, but I'm not like looking at it going, is my heart rate too high? What's my uh blood oxygen? And no, yeah. Oh, I I do it.

Drew Linsalata 38:38

Big no no's I check my sleep score in the morning. I could have never if that existed when I was going through the thick of it. I could have never used it. Never. I can't.

Josh Fletcher 38:45

I use you as an I used you as an example for sleep. I'm sorry, I'm not worried. I'm worried that if I get don't get at least seven, eight hours, I'm like, Drew smokes like sleeps. He sleeps like a ninja on a quest. He stuck he's he sleeps like a vampire. He just stands against the wall, closes eyes for 20 minutes, and then he's back on it.

Drew Linsalata 39:04

Snooze one eye open.

unknown 39:06

It's so good.

Drew Linsalata 39:08

It's true. I mean, I'm better than I used to be, but that was the way, and I'm fine. My my one brain cell is operating great. So, you know. So anyway, I think we're good on optimization. 40 minutes in.

Josh Fletcher 39:21

Stop optimizing, go eat ice cream.

Drew Linsalata 39:23

Biscuits, pack of biscuits, for sure.

Josh Fletcher 39:26

Yeah, do all that. So, do you know what I'm doing later on? I I've not been to the gym for a while, and my brain's like, you know, I should go to the gym because it makes me feel better. And you know what? I'm still a bit tired. I've moved out, I'm just gonna go play Skyrim instead. Yeah, I mean, that's fine.

Drew Linsalata 39:40

Don't optimize your day.

Josh Fletcher 39:42

Yeah, Craig the Crit is like, I'm just like, well, then definitely doubling down then.

Drew Linsalata 39:49

Yeah, yeah. I think that's one thing that uh as you do go down the path and you get better, you start to really recognize it and like aggressively challenge it. No, no, no, I know what this is. I am allowed to sit here. For me, sometimes it's no, I'm allowed to sit on the sofa for 10 minutes in silence and practice just existing. I don't have to jump right into the project that I want to do. No, no, no, no. I'm allowed to just do nothing.

Josh Fletcher 40:13

Honestly, doing nothing is one of the most powerful things you can do. Hold on, hold on. How many audio did it? I knew you were gonna say it. You almost got through the I want another you cheeky get trying to wind it down. I want another right, fair enough.

Drew Linsalata 40:28

This is a good one, so let's hear it.

Listener 40:30

Hello, this is my audio. Did it anyway, as requested in the last episode? Um, I was recently giving a speech at a wedding, and I've done this before. This is my third wedding speech, and I was really frustrated with myself because for whatever reason I was so nervous about this one when I hadn't been nervous about the other speeches I've given. I felt pretty confident about my public speaking in college. I don't know why it like really debilitated me the week before the wedding. I couldn't stop thinking about it. I wrote and rewrote my speech constantly. I feel like I talked about it all the time. Obviously, I talked to my therapist about it in the days coming up to the wedding, presenting it to her, like I can't stop thinking about this. Like, how do I how do I stop thinking about this before the wedding? It's ruining my life. And she was like, Well, just tell the bride you're not gonna do the speech, like you can say no. And for whatever reason, her giving me that out really like lit a fire in me, and I was like, Well, no, I can do it. I'm not gonna say no, like it's not about me. It's her wedding, I'm gonna do the speech. Like, don't give me an out. And totally stealing from you guys, but I was like, I'm gonna like do it anxious and do it anyway. Like, I know I can do it, I'm just uncomfortable with the feelings that I have about it. And just like simplest thing in the world, she was like, Okay, if you're gonna do it anxious, then you have to be okay with the fact you're gonna be anxious while you give the speech. Like, you can't control those thoughts. And I was like, Oh yeah. Great point, girl. Like, that actually makes so much sense. And honestly, I felt really good about the speech. I wasn't that anxious about it because I I released all those thoughts that told me that I couldn't do it, and I kind of crushed it. So thank you guys so much.

Josh Fletcher 42:33

How good is that? Also, also, first of all, let's acknowledge the flex at the beginning. That's my third wedding speech. Uh love that it was a bit of a flex, but I'm here for you. You're obviously very popular. People want you to do the speeches. But of course, you crushed it. Yeah. Uh well to your therapy, also big up to the therapist. Well, that sounds like a really good therapist.

Drew Linsalata 42:54

Yeah, yeah, I'm a fan for sure. Some really great moments in there. Like, wait a minute, this isn't about me. This is her wedding. Like, because that that uncomfortable feeling would make it all about itself. Uh, but I'm nervous. I've been bringing it.

Josh Fletcher 43:06

Yeah, but also trying to optimize the speech.

Drew Linsalata 43:09

Yep.

Josh Fletcher 43:10

And you stopped it for you're thinking about, I keep thinking about is it gonna be optimized? Is it gonna be optimized? Your therapist says, well, just don't do it then. You're like, actually, no, I'm gonna just do it anxious for my friend. Yeah, you stopped optimizing. Yeah, and the irony is you killed it anyway.

Drew Linsalata 43:24

Yeah, can't get it wrong. You've got to say nice things about somebody you care about. There's no there's no possible way to get that wrong. I don't care how much you stutter or stammer, like you're saying nice things about someone you love on a big note. No one pay no one painting on you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you could always have AI write the speech. Like, I'm so happy to see bride and groom so happy today.

Josh Fletcher 43:46

Arguments in a marriage isn't a bug or a flaw.

Drew Linsalata 43:49

That's right.

Josh Fletcher 43:50

Or whatever it is.

Drew Linsalata 43:51

Oh, because today's not a bug.

Josh Fletcher 43:53

It's not a it's not a bug, it's a feature.

Drew Linsalata 43:55

Yeah, that's exactly right. Today isn't about a wedding, it's about love. Like oh, I see. Thanks, JP. Anyway, I think we've sufficiently optimized ourselves in this episode. So well done.

Josh Fletcher 44:09

Yeah, well, stop optimizing, be lazy, do nothing. Learning to do nothing is a skill. Sitting and being bored is a skill. Not chasing the moving goalposts, like Drew said, is a skill. See what happens when you do it.

Drew Linsalata 44:24

Yeah, you might be surprised the way it turns out. All right, we're out, guys. Uh if you want to participate in an episode, you certainly can send a did it anyway or a question at disorder.fm. You can check out the disorder community, which is a lovely place to hang out. It is not required, it's not a cult, it's not a secret recovery sci society that we're hiding from everybody for money.

Josh Fletcher 44:42

If you want to optimize yourself, join the disorder community. That's right.

Drew Linsalata 44:46

Or clearly you're doing it wrong, you'll never get better. We're joking. We're joking. Anyway, thanks for our studio audience, and we'll come back next week and do it again.