Anxiety Recovery ... When You're Calm (Episode 158)

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Oh, this is not just about learning how to deal with a panic attack, because you have all kinds of control and like conditional okaina strategies sprinkled all over your life.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Then be careful with what where your compulsions are and your habits when you are calm. All that checking stuff is signaling to the brain the anxiety is still a threat. Are you still facilitating avoidance even when you are calm?

SPEAKER_03 0:26

We just install a bunch of procedures that are designed to ooh make sure, try try to avoid being triggered. We don't want anything being triggered when we uncover those sneaky little, you know, plugins, life plugins designed to keep us calm, is to challenge those. You know, if I don't, if I eat that food, it makes inflammation and it makes me panic. So so sometimes when calm, it's like, well, this would be a good day to introduce sushi again. You really miss sushi, so go have some sushi. Do it.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 158, entitled The Work When You're Calm. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist and author specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm based in Manchester in the UK, although currently in Barcelona, uh dying in the heat because I have the skin complexion of milk. And I'm joined by my wonderful co-host.

SPEAKER_03 1:19

Yeah, I'm Drew Linsolata. I'm in New York, a therapist also specializing in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders, and guy who used to struggle with the stuff we talk about here on Disordered, and an author and all of that stuff. And the vibe is very like low-key this morning. NPR. You had the very national public relate radio intro. Oh, do I? Yeah, very ASMR. Today I'm today I'm disordered. So yeah, we're a little different, different vibe. We're recording early today, too. We're a little early in New York time, but that's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Yeah. It's weird because it's like kind of later for me. I don't know. I don't know. No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

We got that six-hour difference now since you're traveling.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

Yeah, I can't get my head around that. So Barcelona is like more west than the UK. But the way the the timelines are chopped through the globe, it's like, oh wow, that's so weird. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Anyway, enough about that. The work when we are calm. Um, before we get into that, should we start with a Dinner anyway? I find a fancy one of those.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Yeah, what the heck? We got a couple of really good ones. So how about we start with this one? Because it's pretty solid.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Hi guys, my name is Heather. You can use my name here. I actually just started listening to you guys a few weeks ago, and I felt you've been super helpful with my anxiety. Um, I got a recent promotion to team lead here at my job. And today I had my first test of a real patient that uh was pretty argumentative and combative with me, but I was able to hold firm and not let my shaking voice or shaking hands deter me from handling the situation. And I I did it all by myself. I I did it for me, and I did it anyway, and I'm so proud of myself.

SPEAKER_03 3:08

I'm a fan of the the short and sweet did it anyway. Did it for me? I love when she said I did it for me. I love that. Well done. Yeah, it's really good.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

And often your anticipatory anxiety will tell you, oh, if it gets too stressful, if you get someone quite combative or aggressive, you're gonna have a meltdown. And no, it got it wrong, doesn't it? Anticipatory anxiety always gets it wrong, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 3:32

It really does. It loves to catastrophize and tell like the worst possible stories. It's gonna be an absolute disaster. It's yeah, it's like, oh, as it turns out it wasn't as bad as I thought. And that's the way it goes.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

Yeah, well, well done, Heather. Team Heather. Well done.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

Thanks for sharing.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

The work when you're calm, why do why why why is this an important subject, Drew?

SPEAKER_03 3:53

Um, you know, we've talked in the past about things like sneaky compulsions or sneaky reassurance seeking. And I know in my therapy practice, everybody thinks that they're gonna work only on like the panic in the in the car or the, you know, an OCD is raging, but quickly you discover, like, oh no, the habits of an anxiety disorder, you know, reassurance seeking and checking and compulsing and avoiding are everywhere. They leak into everywhere. So very quickly they discover, or we discover together, like, oh, this is not just about learning how to deal with a panic attack, because you have all kinds of control and like conditional okayness strategies sprinkled all over your life. And uh so sometimes you can actually work on that stuff even when you're not, you know. Yeah, we we do have to activate the fear to rewrite the fear. That is true. You say it all the time. The amygdala has to be turned on to be spoken to. But we can also do the work when we recognize that we have engineered a life full of anxiety disorder type behaviors that we do no matter what. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Yeah, but that's the thing with honestly, it's such a good top uh episode topic because people think they fall into the trap of measuring their progress by the absence of anxiety. Now, don't get me wrong, that is one metric that we're all aiming for. But no, this is a combination of many things beliefs, habits, you know, behaviors, focus, where's your attention, compulsions? You know, a lot of it is habitual, you know. Also, what needs to be turned on in order to be rewired? Oh, yeah, this dude. Amygdala. He needs to turn on the otherwise he's sleeping.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

No, um, yeah, no, it it's I remember like this is it, this is a this is for the people that celebrate when they're not anxious. Now, don't get me wrong, it's nice. Oh, I feel calm, I feel great. Yeah, but just be careful. The work still happens when you're calm. Because some people, and this applies to anyone listening now, that when the anxiety's gone away for a bit and they love it, they're overjoyed, they're euphoric, and good, you're allowed to you know feel feel nice, obviously. Yeah, but then be careful with what where your compulsions are and your habits when you are calm. Well, am I still not anxious? Am I still okay? Am I still recovering? Am I still doing it? No, all that checking stuff is signaling to the brain that anxiety is still a threat. You know, it's still a threat. Okay, it's not there and you're feeling cool, but if you're still looking out for it around the corner, you're not teaching the brain that anxiety isn't, you know, yeah, we don't like it, but it's not a threat. Yeah, and that's the difference. This is why a lot of people go, I don't get why I was anxious one day and then I was anxious one. Yeah, and then we look at, but then what are you doing with your behavior and attention? Yeah, are you still building your life around anxiety? Are you still facilitating avoidance even when you are calm? Are you still making it the most important thing in the room when we look at these golden rules? Actually, yeah, some people fail the golden rules even when they're calm. You know, oh, I'm brilliant, but anxiety is still the most important thing in the room. I'm celebrating, I've got the trumpets out, you know, the flares have been lit off. Yeah, I'm not anxious. Oh my god, I've done it, I'm 100% recovered, or whatever. You're still making anxiety the most important thing in the room. It's allowed to be in the room as well. But you celebrating it not being there means that it's not allowed in the room. Yeah. And then when it comes back, which it will, because you're human, we all get anxiety. I do, Drew does. We all get anxious. Uh when that happens, then what you've just told the brain, yeah, it's still really mega important. And that's, you know, we look at what you're doing when you're calm.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

Yeah. And I think that's a good point because it's it's recovery sometimes or desensitization, whatever you want to call it, can be a real roller coaster. And we want to try and stay off the roller coaster. It is no matter what, but we don't have to make it worse. So it's funny, I I hadn't really even thought about that. The work when you're calm, how much celebration? Because a celebration, and by the way, you're allowed to enjoy a non-anxious day. It's okay to acknowledge that. Like, oh dang, man, I was waiting for this. This is great. Okay, cool. Now let's get on with that. No, it's not. We want you to stop. Yeah, you know, we're not saying that. Like, you're allowed to celebrate. We both love when you celebrate, but like you have to be really careful that you don't leave the comparison engine running all day long. Like, I feel good today, but I have to keep comparing it to when I was not or like uh the comparison engine. Like turn turn it off, right? Like, okay, yeah, this is a good day, and I'm just gonna ride it as far as I can ride it. But that's that's as far as I can get meta about my day, describing how I feel today. Don't let that be the whole focus.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

And notice your I did this when I wasn't anxious, you know, or when I was resensitized, sorry, and it's like just checking. But even when I was calm, yeah, check, check, check, check, check. Non-anxious you wouldn't be checking for anxiety. So when your anxiety isn't there, stop still behaving like anxious you, stop treating the feeling and the intrusive thoughts and whatnot as important. Particularly you a lot with OCD with checking and testing compulsions, like, am I okay with the thought? I'm okay with the thought today. I'm not okay with the thought now. Oh, now it's a nine out of ten, now it's a two out of ten, now it's a four out of ten. This checking and testing is keeping it important. Yeah, so notice when you do that, because it will feel automatic and be like, nope, I'm taking that attention away now. It's okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:18

And it's true that a lot of that does happen while calm or, you know, not anxious, the work while calm. And I I think it's always important to recognize, since we can't choose to not have a thought, you can't turn off, like forcibly turn off the checking mechanism. Over time, it will quiet down. All you can do when that annoying, like when this dude or this dude, the critic, keep telling you, like, I don't know, is this good, is this good or bad? Is this better than yesterday or worse than yesterday? Are you still feeling okay? You were good at nine, are you good at ten? Like, when those voices are trying, you can't just turn them off, but you can decide. No, no, that's not a conversation that I'm having today. We don't have to have that conversation. I'm going back to my breakfast or my dog walk or whatever I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

I'm going to Barcelona Port this afternoon for Primavera festival. And let's say I was resensitized. I might be in the mode to be like, oh, I wonder how I feel. What would you say if I was to me constantly asking the question, how do I feel? How do I feel? How do I feel?

SPEAKER_03 10:17

You know what I would say to you? You know what I'm going to do, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:22

I know that was my gift to you. I laid that up on a plate, boys.

SPEAKER_03 10:26

You 100% did. That was a slam dunk for me. I think it's because it's important. When calm, just like when anxious, we're always we're going to evaluate, how do I feel? This is horrible, this is horrible, this is horrible. And then when calm, it's like, oh, this is great, this is great, this is great. Like we have to be careful that we don't always camp in how do I feel, evaluating how you feel. A recovered person or a non-anxious person, every look, every human being probably asks, How am I doing? Am I okay? at some point during the day, in some way, either literally or symbolically. But anxious people do it all the time. And one of the things that I learned, I guess, through the process is I look back and think, man, I was asking that question every eight and a half seconds. And that was just a huge mistake. I did not have to ask that question over and over and over. But what would happen is my brain would ask it and I would try to answer it. So I'd spent all day long involved in that. Um, it was really difficult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

And I think what I like the I like the comparison engine analogy. I think it's really important. It's like, yeah, an engine chugging away, like and you're you're fueling it constantly.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

You know, and just you slow it down first. You can't turn it off completely, but you slow it down. You know, you it has to run out of gas, has to run out of fuel.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

That's it.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

You know, stop keep topping up with fuel.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Oh, that that's I love that. So, see, you just improved my little analogy there for sure. Like the engine is running, but you don't have to keep filling the tank, please. Every time you turn it, do it choke out, yeah. It'll run out of gas at some point. So that's really important. And the comparison is almost automatic, but you don't have to engage with it. That's always the big thing. So don't get you know annoyed at yourself or criticize yourself when you can't turn off the what if I get anxious thought. You can't turn it off, you can only just let it be.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

But particularly for the perfectionists, there's so many in our community, you know, it's like they really want to win. And we've the episode still trying to win. You really want to win, you want to complete it, you want to. This is why don't you use the word recovery? Because for a lot of people, see that as the word I can win, I can beat something. I've recovered. No, no, no. It's like I'll use desensitize, whatever. But when they go two, three days and they're having a really nice time, maybe they've not got had their OCD theme, or maybe they're not, you know, just constantly monitoring, checking how they feel, or they just feel good for two, three days. Be very careful. Now, don't get me wrong, that is indicative that you're doing something right, good. But then I'm interested as a therapist, and Drew will be too, is how you react when you do get anxious again. Yeah. Because if you're if you've got the pom-poms and the fireworks out, because you're three days, but then in those two, three days, you're like, oh yes, I'm still winning. Yes, I'm still anxious, yes, I'm doing well, yes, I'm desensitized, yes, I've completed it, yes, I've doing it. And then the moment you get a bit stressed and that threat response fires off again, you feel a bit anxious, you're then gonna that's gonna double down and be harder. Because then you're like, what did I do wrong? Why is this here? I'm hopeless. But it's actually because you fail to do the work when you're calm, which ultimately is leave it alone and get on with stuff. But in general, you know, be be wary if that's if that's you, if that applies to you. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:29

Like you're judging it based on, like, oh, it was a good day or a bad day because I didn't feel a certain way or did feel a certain way. I think, like, you know, in terms of the work when calm, one of the things I think we have to consider is that a person who develops an anxiety disorder probably didn't go into that with all of that checking and scanning and controlling and planning and padding and you know, all of those things. The work while calm is really undoing all the stuff that you have installed into your life as like a the life operating system. You add all kinds of plugins to that system designed to stop you from being triggered. But those aren't needed anymore. So, like when you're calm, go and try a food that you have cut out of.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Mine is analogies today, and they're good analogies. I'm enjoying these analogies.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

Maybe we should record early every week. Like, I'm just at the top of the gatling gun of analogies today. But that's what happens. We just install a bunch of procedures that are designed to ooh, make sure, try, try to avoid being triggered. We don't want anything being triggered. So we don't read certain things, we don't watch certain things, we don't eat or drink certain things. We we make sure we only do certain activities, like on a calm day, yeah, go and like introduce a food thing.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Absolutely. Yeah. You you're testing the effectiveness of your of your procedures, not testing your willingness to be with anxiety. So when you are not anxious for a day, you don't get the credit. Something we often say on this podcast, but getting the credit for anxiety passing. When anxiety does pass, and it's because of all these internal procedures and avoidance, stuff like that, that gets the credit. And that's not always gonna win. It's not the most reliable coping mechanism, is you, right? You know, and ultimately, when you're like, okay, I feel like crap, but I can handle it, then that's what gets you through. I had one, I had an anxiety moment on the Paris Underground. Have you ever been on the Paris Underground? It is insane. It was one of the hottest thing places I've ever been. It was packed. I had my massive suitcase, I had nothing to hold on to. I was sweating, it was pouring with sweat onto my suitcase. It was so hot, the train wasn't moving. My brain was like, get off, get off, get off. I was like, no, it's fine, I'll not do this. I couldn't breathe. I had air hunger. I was like, oh my god, there's people sweating around me. And I was like, no, here's an here's a nice chance to uh you know to do an old exposure. Yeah, it happens, right? And I got off and I was like, you know what, Johnny? He's got it.

SPEAKER_03 15:50

Yeah, baby, he's got it. Well, wait till you get to New York, because the New York subway might be hotter than the Paris Underbase.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

I've heard that's a hot one as well. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Some miserable. Come on, get come in August and we'll just hang out. We'll just take the subways around. It is awful. It is disgusting. You just without a magic bottle of water. 100%. You just sweat thinking, like thinking creates sweat. Like that small amount of calorie burn, and you're just it's disgusting. I love it here. Um anyway. Why do you do like a dinner anyway? Uh yeah, let's do a did it anyway. Let's hear what you got.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

This is from Anna. Hello, Josh Andrew. My name is Anna. You can absolutely use my name. I've been dreaming about submitting a dinner anyway for such a long time. I've struggled with anxiety, depression, and OCD since I was very young. About two years ago, not long after getting engaged to my long-term partner, I was diagnosed with severe ROCD, which is relationship OCD. It completely paused my life. I couldn't work, and it deeply impacted my relationship for a long time. The first time I even heard the term ROCD and realized it was what I was experiencing was through your podcast. Oh, that's nice. We finally do some decent stuff, True. I had been searching OCD on Spotify, I came across your episode, and that was my first real click. Of course, as we know, that clarity doesn't always stick. Over the past two years, I've had many ups and downs, including periods where I was compulsively listening to the podcast. Don't be doing that. Always wishing I could one day submit my own, did it anyway. You can do that. Two years later, after a lot of therapy, personal work, listening, and growth, I'm so happy to say that last weekend we got married. It was the most perfect day. I won't pretend my OCD didn't show up, it absolutely did, both in the lead up and on the day, not just with our OCD, but with other themes too. But through willingness and leaning into the discomfort, my partner and I stood there anyway, and now we're happily married with the most beautiful memories from that day. I'm so grateful I found your podcast on this journey, and I'm incredibly proud of myself for getting here. On top of that, I've just returned to work and found out I've been promoted as well. To anyone struggling right now, it does get better. It takes time, and it's not linear, but it does shift. Keep going. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 18:15

I feel like we need like a wedding sound effect.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Yeah, that was so good. That wasn't the best we can do is Billy Mace.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

That's true. I'm not sure where he is. I'm gonna take a chance.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

But I'm not done yet. I got it.

unknown 18:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

I got that. Oh, that's what I love about that as well. You took the OCD mechanism with you on your wedding day, and then all the other themes are like going off, like, no, no, I'm gonna stop you. I'm gonna stop you. You're like, nah. And now I'm happily married in your face, OCD. Uh, I absolutely love it. Well done, Anna. And I loved how compassionate it was. You should be proud of yourself. Um, congratulations on getting married and doing what non-anxious you would do. You did the golden rules on your wedding day, by the way. Do what non-anxious you would do whilst anxious, and don't make anxiety the most important thing in the room. Yeah, nailed it. Because it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_03 19:04

Love it. Okay, well done. Um the work when calm. Some of the work that I sometimes suggest when calm, when we uncover those sneaky little, you know, plugins, life plugins designed to keep us calm, is to challenge those. So one of the more common things that I find is food and things we ingest. Like anxious people will often cut out. Oh, I can't, I I don't, I haven't had that in three years. Either because I ate that thing, I had a slice of pizza, and then I had a big panic attack an hour later. It must have been the pizza. And now they don't, they haven't eaten pizza, but they miss it so much. Or, well, I read on the internet, you know, Reddit, and in the holistic Reddit, it told me that, you know, if I don't, if I eat that food, it makes inflammation and it makes me panic. So but they love that food. So sometimes when calm, it's like, well, this would be a good day to introduce sushi again. You really miss sushi, so go have some sushi. Do it.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Do it. You know what I had this morning. Sushi? In the in a hotel breakfast now. Sobra sada. Have you ever had sobrasada?

SPEAKER_03 20:02

Yeah, it's like garbagol, but it's a little different. It's just it's just it's just carcinogen.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

It's just carcinogenic spread. It's it's somazing. Just like nothing good, nothing is about this is good for me. I was like, get that on some bread.

SPEAKER_03 20:18

It's saturated fat, sodium, and nitrates on a roll.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

It's literally like I put it on some bread and ate it, and my heart was like, dude.

SPEAKER_03 20:27

Dude, yeah, exactly. You were gonna live to 84. That's now down to 81. I hope you enjoyed that sandwich.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

One subversion. That was it. Three years off my life.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Three years off your life. 100%. But yeah, like adding in.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

I did it because someone who had raging cardiophobia when I was younger. And now I'm like, nah, yeah, it's worth it.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

100%. Have a coffee or introduce another food or pick up that book that you've been afraid to read, or whatever it is. Like, that's a good time. The work when calm would be like challenge those, like, ooh, I gotta keep all of my stay calm, don't get triggered mechanisms intact, or or do you? Maybe you don't have to. So yeah, the work when calm is actually flexibility as well.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

Keep that flexibility. Some people, when they're calm, they go even more rigid. Yeah. Oh, I don't want to lose this calmness. No. Oh, curiosity and flexibility, even when you're calm, it's so important, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 21:16

You know, that's a really good point. I didn't even think about that for this episode. That thing where like I'm having a good day, and then I just get frozen in place in the good day because like I don't like Jurassic Park, right? Like I if I move, it'll see me. A T-Rex only sees me if I move. Like, oh, I just have to stay frozen so the anxiety doesn't see me and I can stay calm. Like, no, no, no, no, no. That's the time to try to just do the life that you are so desperate to live. Like, do that. Go ahead, do it. So it's all it's okay. Um, yeah, yeah, it's important though.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

It's so important the work continues when you are calm.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

Yeah, somebody somebody in the in the studio audience just said, I guess we have a studio audience on these. Uh when I'm calm, I sit in fear of when the feeling is going to come back. Well, it's okay to have the fear that the feeling is you can't turn that off, but sitting and just Just waiting for it to come back is a really bad idea. Why would you do that?

SPEAKER_02 22:03

You're staring at it, you're just staring at the front door like a little puppy waiting for the owner to come home. So it's all good. You might as well chill out and go and no, don't don't don't stare at it. You might as well get on with stuff. Definitely. Curiosity and flexibility. Um but no, definitely. Remember the golden rules there, audience member. You know, like what would non-anxious you be doing right now? Sitting, waiting in fear? No, get up and do something.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

Yeah, absolutely. Right, get up and do something. You've been you've been pining away for the longest time. I don't mean just the person in our studio audience here, but anybody listening. Like, we were all pining away for the life that we used to have. I want to be able to, I want to, oh, great. This is a day, go do that. Oh, but what if I do another thing that I hear when calm is I don't want to overdo it. No, no, I actually want you to overdo it. Like, go ahead, do it. Like that that whole idea that, like, ooh, I can I'm gonna overdo it on a really good day. And like, uh, you know, that's gonna I can't I can't do that. I have to make sure I don't do too much today. Well, why? Uh why would you do that? I mean, I think people forget, you know, like we're not here trying to like control the anxiety and make it never stop. We're learning that we're capable of handling all the experiences, the good ones, the bad ones, the neutral ones. That's what desensitization is.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Like whilst not being so rigid. So just sat there waiting for stuff, don't be so rigid. Yeah, that's a really good example, actually. I'm I'm I'm I'm not anxious, but I'm what am I doing now? I'm still making anxiety the most important thing in the room by sitting waiting for it. Sure. You know, whereas you've always handled anxiety, you know, you've never not handled it. So there's literally no reason to brace. Yep. Use curiosity and flexibility and be like, let's see what happens when I go loose and just start living my life, even when that feeling comes up.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

Let's see what happens is such an important thing because when we do things like exposure and acceptance work, we're experimenting. Like a lot of people call exposures experiments because they are. What would happen if I is a great question to live by. Instead of what if, it's what would happen.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

That's what I did on the Paris. That's what I did on the Paris subway. It was more like I didn't have to. I could have waited four minutes for the next one and it'd have been a lot easier. But it was an experiment. It was like, I wonder how anxious this will get me. And it did get me really stressed. I was like, oh my god. This is insane. That's exactly right. I've never known anything like it. I was like, wow. Never complain about the London Underground ever again.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

One of the best things about having a live audience is they can expound on our metaphors. So you said like a puppy staring at the door, and this person said, Yeah, don't just stare at the door, chew the remote. This is a dog owner. Might as well. Anything but compulsive. Absolutely. Um, I got a written did it anyway. Speaking of our studio audience from our little disordered community, which you guys are certainly welcome to investigate. It's a disordered.fm slash community. Not required. We're not we don't have any sort of secret like cult cure club going on, but if you want to pop in and interact with us a little bit, you can check it out. So this I won't use this person's name, but I think this was great because this person wrote uh in our did it anyway section, and there's people are always sharing their did it anyways. This will be my first post in here. I joined the group after a bad panic attack a few days ago. I've been working on exposures for years now, little by little, so much so I was able to move across country, even when I felt like I was going to be trapped in the town I was living in. We lived here for a while now, and I was able to go to restaurants and stores with somebody uh with little to no fear for a great while. But winter came and it's been my first winter in 10 years, so we stayed inside a lot. Then a lot of stressful things are happening, so I swear upon my life I was regressing and getting bad again. I was canceling appointments and avoiding going out, and I was really down because I want to keep moving forward. Now, after joining this group, I swore to myself I wasn't gonna wallow in it and get back out there. Today I successfully drove with my husband. We went to the store, I was able to buy what we needed, no matter how much I wanted to leave and go home. After the store, I was a little high on my success.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

But I'm not done yet.

SPEAKER_03 25:54

And we even went and got tacos. I was tacos are never wrong, by the way. I was able to sit through eating and now I'm here writing to you with a grin. I do find it hard when it feels like it comes rushing back in again, but I reminded myself that I have been here before and I dug myself out once, and I can keep digging.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

So good. So good. Well done. Well done. So I bet those tacos tasted amazing. They probably did, right? Yeah, yeah. Oh well, uh I want tacos now. You can find tacos in Barcelona, surely, quite easily.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

I'm guessing, yeah, they're probably everywhere. So it reminds me of the story you told. I don't remember what what episode it was. I think we're talking about tapping or one of the talking about sitting at a Nando's and just tapping like crazy. Just eat your food, man. I don't know why that popped in my head when this person shared her taco story, but I'm gonna pull this lemon and herb in your eye.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Stop tapping.

SPEAKER_03 26:55

Stop tapping. Oh man, so yeah, yeah, I hear you. But I, you know, so that would be work when calm, in a way. Like this person was, you know, ooh, really had a hard time during the shopping, but felt good afterwards. Like, okay, well, let's go have tacos then. This is I'm not gonna run back home. Like, I'm gonna stay out and live a life. So and learn something from it. Very good. The pride in the voice as well. Absolutely. And that's written, and you could hear the pride in the written words. It's always great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

So good, so good.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Okay, Drew, then to summarize, what do you should you not do if you if you're struggling with anxiety, but then you find yourself calm? Well, then what are the no-nos?

SPEAKER_03 27:34

Uh, I think the number one no-no I would tell people is do not spend the whole calm day trying to stay calm.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

Very good. Uh, I like that. I would say stop checking to see if it's back constantly. It doesn't matter if it comes back or not. In fact, I'm so enthusiastic that it doesn't matter. I'm gonna turn into Dwayne the Rock Johnson.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

Look, I'm not gonna hit the button. I want to hit the button, but I won't hit the button. Press the button. I'm saying it doesn't matter. Thank you. Yeah, okay. Don't make it don't make it the most important thing in the room. Like it's not here. It's not here. Why are you uh you're just deciding that it still belongs here? Yeah, it can come in if it wants.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yeah. But it doesn't have to be important, you know, like, yeah, whatever. Okay, it's here. No, it's not. It's like, I don't know, like a colleague coming in using the fax machine. You know, it'll come in, make a bit of noise, and leave again. The facts you don't need to stare.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

You're in Barcelona, 1998, right? Or what year are you in? I know where you are, but when are you? The fax machine. Do people still use fax? Wow. Boing, boing, boing.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

How old am I now?

SPEAKER_03 28:43

Well, older after that soprasada sandwich for sure. Like you are you've aged.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Um you say don't ruminate or the audience says you say you say don't ruminate or check, but it feels so automatic. Yeah. So catch yourself automatically doing it and then change it. Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Well, well, that's what I I always say, like, you're right, you can't just decide to not ruminate or check. That is just the way it goes, but you can decide to turn your back on the results. Like, I I like to use the visualization of a very over uh excited first day, the new doctor, he just graduated. He's so excited, and all he wants to do is keep running tests on your blood and just keep jamming the results in your face. Look, look at this, look at this, look at this. You could take that and just crumple it, take it out of his hand, throw it on the floor. Don't even read it. So, like that is how you turn off the rumination and the checking over time. When you refuse to answer, no, we're not having this conversation. I'm making a sandwich, and I will continue to do so. Too bad.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

Yeah. Also, the phrase I've noticed really helps here. So when you say, you know, checking and ruminating is automatic for me. It is for everyone else as well. You're not sp you're not special.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

You know, that's how it works for anxiety disorders. But then you're like, I've noticed, I'm ruminating and checking now. Well done me. Yeah. Now let's let's consciously um work with my attention and my behavior here a little bit. Yeah. You know, because catching it's a good thing. So and replacing a habit with repetition and focus and behavior, that's how we we stop. You can't just turn a switch and be like, right, I'm never ruminating and checking again. But I'm noticing I'm ruminating and checking, and I'm gonna catch myself doing that, I'm doing that and bring it to something else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:22

What's happening right now, that present moment awareness? I mean, there's me and my mindfulness stuff again, but like that is such a valuable skill in this process.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

It's it's essential, isn't it? The more the you know what, Drew, the more I do this, the more it's just attentional problems. 100% and focus.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

You gotta be able to come back to the moment that you're in. So when you're calm or having a good day or having a calm moment, and your brain wants to decide, well, we better think about what's gonna happen after this. No, no, no. What's happening right now? What's actually happening right now? Nothing. But I do notice that I'm having a lot of thoughts about what might happen. Do I need to follow those thoughts and turn that into the current narrative, or should I stay in the moment that I'm in right now? I should probably stay in the moment I'm in right now.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

So yeah, the work happens when you're calm. It's cool actually, doing like mindfulness and stuff, genuine like curiosity, mindfulness when you're calm is cool, and you compare it when you're anxious.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Look how Craig the Critic and anxiety are really loud. Yep. And then look how what other voices pop up when you're calm. I quite like that.

SPEAKER_03 31:18

It's funny, you know. I said we were recording early this morning, so I I was a little pressed for time. And I noticed that as I was in my kitchen, I was just really hungry for whatever. I don't normally not hungry in the morning, but I was really hungry this morning. And I noticed that the the discomfort of being hungry was like speeding. I wanted tacos, but I didn't. I could have I could have ran out. It's probably tacos somewhere. But uh the discomfort breakfast other than Sabrasada. Um, I know. There really is none after that. That's the only go. That's the only actual guy. Well, I I have been I'm a cold pizza for breakfast guy. I will eat cold pizza.

SPEAKER_02 31:53

Oh, I'm with you on that, man. I'm with you on that.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

It's just you don't heat it up either. You just eat it cold. That's that's the breakfast of champions right there.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

I eat it cold. Sometimes I'll dip it in a massive vat of mayonnaise.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

Mayonnaise. Oh no.

SPEAKER_02 32:06

Red hot sauce.

SPEAKER_03 32:07

That's so funny. I have a guy who worked with me that on his he had on his desk the biggest hot container of hot sauce ever, because he'd have thank you. That's a sin. Someone just said mayo on pizza. That's a sin. Thank you, studio audience. I don't care.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Screw you, studio audience, and anyone listening. Red hot sauce and mayonnaise and cold pizza in the morning. Oh my goodness. I'm the baller, you're all losers.

SPEAKER_03 32:30

Well, hot sauce in mayo is very buffalo wing, by the way. So as a guy who spent four years in Buffalo, New York, doing my undergrad work, it it's not. It's actually butter and hot sauce, but it's similar. Like that's how you would make like buffalo sauce on pizza, though.

unknown 32:42

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Yeah, I I'm a condiments guy. What what what more would you want me to say? Yeah, you know? Oh, fair enough. I can in fact that's how I recovered from anxiety. I ate all the condiments. I was brave, I was curious, I noticed that I was expect treating it as an experiment. All the things that you teach, Drew. Yeah, as now you now you're backtracking on my pizza at expedition.

SPEAKER_03 33:02

I don't like fair enough. It was actually a recovery, it was an exposure to do mayo on the pizza.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Would you rather would you rather uh use my method of you know how I used mixed hot sauce with condiments to overcome my anxiety? Or would you No, I was gonna say or buy a grifter's 10 weeks off.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

I could see that you had to check yourself for a second. That's like, oh, he's about to go off the rails. Uh well, I don't even know what I was talking about. I was talking about being hungry. Oh, that it was just the mindfulness thing. Like, I noticed that the sensation of hunger was speeding me up and like adding to the stress. And I had to literally say, what's going on right now? Oh, my stomach is churning and I don't like it. And now I'm reacting to it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Um, the audience is like listening to you guys talk about eating cold pizza is giving me anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Right. Oh, we have people chiming in. They do mayo on, I'll do mayo on pizza. Some people are that ranch on pizza, some we've devolved it. It's going way off the rails. Welcome to food chat with Drew and Josh. We're we're no more anxiety talk here. We're just gonna talk about food in every episode.

SPEAKER_02 34:11

Oh, we're not making anxiety the most important thing in the room. That's I'm actually really hungry now. Loads people are so hungry.

SPEAKER_03 34:18

This poor guy's going shopping, and we're gonna be spending more on food after hearing all this food chat. Team ketchup.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Oh, this person just team ketchup.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Ketchup belongs on everything, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:28

Right, enough of this. All right. Uh, if you want to submit your own did it anyway, do it at disordered.fm. Um, you can submit your written questions, did it anyways, audio did it anyways. You can do it all there. Um, give us a follow on socials if you don't. I'm anxietyjosh, and Drew is the.anxious.truth. Um on disordered.fm as well. You can um if you want to be part of the community, it is a paid community because one, we need to kind of maintain it and not just it flooded with bots and spammers, but also it needs to we need to maintain it that way to keep a nice private uh community. Um what else? Yeah, look out for for upcoming workshops and stuff and stuff, and I'm look forward to uh yeah, to to doing more episodes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:13

I hear oh you can also find out about the disordered guide to health anxiety on the site. It's right there in the home.

SPEAKER_02 35:18

Oh, the disordered guide to health anxiety, yeah, that's good. I I fixed the Kindle version as well. So people that like Kindle, um, you can now it was a bit, I don't know, the format's a bit off by fixed it, and it's fine. It's fine now, it's all done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

So actually, I guess if you have the Kindle version, you could reload that and you'll get the fixed version now. Kindle's good that way.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've if you've bought it already, you can just get the the new one.

SPEAKER_03 35:41

Well, well done fixing that. You've earned some pizza and mayo for that. I will send you some. Anyway. All right, guys, thanks for hanging out. If you're having a good day today, have the good day. Don't turn it into like worrying about a bad day. We need it on Audible. I know, we'll get there.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Hanging there. I'm off to get some pizza taco.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

Go for it. Um, all right, guys, thanks for hanging out. We'll see you next Friday.