Anxiety, Distraction, and "Running From Feelings" (Episode 168)

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Hi guys, you can use my name. Thank you for all your help and insight you provide on this podcast. I wish I'd find you sooner. I have a question about attention. So much anxiety advice is about keeping yourself engaged in other activities so that you're not solely focusing on your anxiety and how you feel all the time. And I do genuinely find when I'm engaged in other activities, I'm not ruminating on how I feel as much. So overall I feel less anxious. But when does this cross into feeling the need to constantly distract yourself with other things? I have some family members who can't sit still or relax and always feel the need to be doing something. Now I wonder if they're actually anxious types too, but don't realize it and spend much of their time escaping the feeling. I get afraid that one day the feeling will catch up with me and I won't be able to outrun it. Like it will stop me in my tracks and overpower me. I guess this is the fear of anxiety coming back bigger and stronger than ever, despite my progress and all the tools I've learned. I also find my anxiety is very meta and I overanalyze anxiety itself and if I'm doing recovery right. So when I spot an anxious thought and tell myself, I don't need to feed into this, let's focus on something else. I then second guess myself and wonder if I'm doing the right thing or actually neglecting the anxious thoughts. Thanks for your help. I'm a previous sufferer of panic disorder, OCD, generalized anxiety. Uh I'm diagnosed autistic, if that matters, or if you care.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

And I one of the privileges of my week is to co-host this wonderful podcast with my co-host who is Drew Linzolata from New York in the US of A. Also a therapist that specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. Also a former sufferer of the stuff we talk about every week. Um, author on the topic, co-author with Josh on the Disorder Guide to Health Anxiety, and guy with too many cameras and microphones, love talking about this stuff. Definitely one of my favorite hours of the week. That is a great question. Is that running from my feelings if I get distracted? I love this question.

SPEAKER_04 2:29

Is distraction running for my feelings? Yes. Because I know when we speak about distraction. You know me, the more I look at anxiety disorders, the more I see the role of attention that maintains it. Well, if you're someone who's anxious, you're constantly checking how you feel. You wake up, am I anxious now? Uh how is it? Is it higher? Is it lower? Am I doing recovery right? Is this feeling overwhelming me? Like in Gemma's case. Um, and there's a law of this, and it all the universal factor is that it just has your attention. Now, I often passionately say, you know, like, you know, people often say, well, isn't that just distraction? And I quite like distraction because anxiety disorders distract you from living your life. You know, you sat there in the park, supposed to be playing with your kids or in a restaurant or whatever, but you're inwards, you know, the inwards compulsion to constantly scan. So I always say fight fire with fire with that. But I love this question because when does distraction become avoidance? When am I running from feelings? And that's what we're gonna talk about today.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Yeah, it's a really good question. And it's really, I think, complicated because what it feels like at 10 a.m. might be different than 11, and it's gonna change and morph, and there is no black and white, definite right answer. And sometimes you'll look back and say, Well, I was running from my feelings. All right, I got it wrong that time. Okay, it's not a disaster. I think the question sender inner was really good too, because she even acknowledged I tend to get really fixated on making sure I'm doing recovery right. So she gets very probably concerned, like, oh, if I do this, is that gonna be right? Is that a setback? Is it gonna be bad? Is it gonna be good? Am I running? Am I not? Am I distracting? Like, yeah, yeah, I get it. Gets really messy, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_04 4:11

So yeah, I mean what I got from Gemma's question was um it's still running, isn't it? Like I am distracting, I notice this better. But the crux of the question was, yeah, but I got a feeling it's gonna catch up to me and overwhelm me. Well, you know, you've characterized and anthropomorphosized your anxiety. Keep things simple here. Drew is simple, I'm simple. You're just afraid of panicking, and you've never not tolerated panic. There's no special panic that supersedes the rest. I still argue that the worst panic attack is your first. Um, because the confusion of not knowing what it is and it freaking you out. Um, but yeah, you've mischaracterized what anxiety is there. Don't get me wrong, it sucks and it feels really scary. But look how you've conceptualized the anxiety. Oh, and you imagine that you're being chased, chased by this big overwhelming anxiety. You you know, I'm like, no, it doesn't work like that. You know, you have your dump of adrenaline, cortisol, you go into threat mode, it's uncomfortable. You know, so we keep things simple like that. There's no special hidden, hidden section in your body that's like, oh, come on, unleash the nuke, you know. Release the kraken. There's no release, no, it's not coming. Release the kraken. Yeah, yeah, and um, yeah, so that still says that there's a fear of fear. So actually, your distraction probably is a bit of running away. But okay, I much prefer as a therapist, I much prefer people, anything but rumination and scanning and checking, and they're the three worst ruminating, scanning and checking. Yeah, um, those compulsions just keep you on a very fast hamster wheel.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

I I think you know it's funny because sometimes this gets it's a good question because also, and then there's that phrase that we come back to that we both hate a lot, the sit with it, you know, sit with it, accept it, sit with it. And I've heard many, many times like, oh, but if I do something, if I move my attention, if I if I distract, if I get involved with my life, do something values-driven, isn't that running from the feeling? I'm supposed to sit with it. I've had people who literally will say, Oh no, for the last three years, I stop everything I'm doing and look at it so that I make sure I feel it as deeply as possible, so I get all the whatever is supposed to get out of it, and that's doing it right, but they're stuck. Like, no, no, no, no. So are you running? Yeah, probably in some way, shape, or form. But what are you running from? Am I trying to get away from a feeling that I insist I can't handle? Or maybe just run away, but toward your life. Like instead of running, instead of staying stuck in this process of trying to be safe from your feeling, yeah, run away from that, which feels reckless and run toward your life. Go ahead, run away from that. Go ahead. It's like running away from a cult. Feels wrong to do it, but it's the right thing, it's the right move.

SPEAKER_04 7:01

Oh, I like that. Did you hear my mm before? It sounded like I was eating a Pavlova. Very good. I like that analogy of running away from a cult. It feels wrong. I feel guilty, I feel anxious, I feel isolated. Yeah. Um, it's the willingness. So, like, what helps is that like, listen, I could sit here and stare at my panic, and that's okay, but it sucks, but I know I'll be all right. Or whilst panicking, I can do what non-anxious me might do and also teach the brain that anxiety is not that important. I could sit with it if I wanted to, but why would I?

SPEAKER_01 7:40

Yeah, that's boring. Well, I mean, sometimes we don't have a choice. I mean, sometimes there's nothing going on and you're kind of stuck sitting with it, and that's fine, but not by default always.

SPEAKER_04 7:50

Why would you sit with something that's already consuming your life? It's already had so much of your attention. Um, sit with it's a very blasé phrase. Um, it can apply to other emotions. Sure. So like I would sit with grief, yeah, you know, and feel that. Um, and it can apply to anxiety and panic and OCD and uncertainty. You can sit with the feeling to prove to yourself you can tolerate it. Once you've proved that, well, prove's a very dangerous word in the OCD world, but once you're confident with that, you'll be like, Well, okay, I'm panicking. Well, I could sit here and just ruminate and argue with thoughts that won't, you know, r relent. Or I could do what non-anxious me would be doing. So, you know what? I will load the dishwasher whilst feeling anxious. I will go see my friends whilst feeling anxious. I will drive to the beach whilst feeling anxious.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:46

Because it's much better than sitting there and just staring at radio panic and what if. So there's that's you know, it's a good question, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 8:56

You know, is it running from the feeling? I mean, sure. I mean, I don't know. Not in the negative way. I think that people would say, Oh, it's it's wrong. I'm doing it wrong because I'm running from the feeling. I would say only, and we always come back to intention when it comes to distraction, because there's always going to be distraction, like everything you do to move your attention to something more important than saving yourself from yourself, which we've been doing for a very long time. We've got to stop doing that. So, like you said, go visit your friends while you're anxious. There's gonna be some element of distracting in that. If you get caught up in your friends or driving or listening to the radio, whatever you're doing, yeah, yeah, you there's that's gonna be distracting, which will get separation between you and that cycle of like, oh, I something I hate and I have to run away if I have to fix this or save myself from it. We just don't want to use it as distraction. It will, but distraction is a strategy. Life is distracting, so let it be. Like, let it naturally be distracting. Just don't use distraction as your primary.

SPEAKER_04 9:54

It's such an interesting word, isn't it? Yeah, it's like what you just I just focus on. Are you distracting or are you just choosing to focus on something else?

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Right.

SPEAKER_04 10:02

Which will be distracting. Yeah, someone in studio audits said I used to wake up in the morning and forget I was anxious and feel great. Yeah. Until I remembered and spent all morning focusing on my anxiety because it felt like I had to keep an eye on it. That's it. This definitely applies to you. And then for some people, the narrative goes like, Yeah, but shouldn't isn't that the problem I need to be fixing? Yeah, because it goes back, and I know I've said it on this podcast before, but I'll keep repeating myself. You people with anxiety disorders have a fixating mindset, and I love fixating mindset. Put it on creativity or put it on problems and in in the real material world, and you'll probably solve those problems quicker. But what are you telling your body when you stop what you're doing? You're having a nice morning like this community member, and suddenly you stop and start fixating on how you feel. You've just taught the brain that anxiety, you need fixing, anxiety needs fixing. Yeah. Oh, I I forgot that that job I've not fin fixed. No, you were already doing it. You weren't distracting yourself in the morning, you were living, and then you kind of stopped living because you went to go and pick an old wound that needs to be left alone.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Yeah. And that am I running from the feeling or am I running from the problem? I get that one a lot too. That's a especially for me, it seems like especially a gad thing. People who love to use thinking to try to figure out the unfigure outable, and they insist they have to keep doing it because that makes sense until they wish they could stop. Like, well, okay, I have to we're gonna learn anything but rumination and MCT, we're gonna behavioral activate, you know, you detect mindfulness, all of that stuff. Yeah, but isn't that ignorant? Isn't that running from the problem? No, no, no. The problem isn't I hope my kids are safe in 10 years, so I better sit for two hours and ruminate on that. The problem is that you sit for two hours and ruminate to try to feel better about something that you have no control or knowledge of. So no, it's okay. No, you're running in the process.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

Gemma, the question sender in her, said it towards the end of the question, you know, like I then get fixated on recovery. So then you and these people are perfectionists, right? So you're like, Am I doing recovery right? Is that distraction? Is it not? Am I doing willful tolerance? Am I not? And again, your your OCD and anxiety is fixated on getting it right, perfecting that. But there's no such thing. Have some flexibility and shrug your shoulders. Drew is telling me before we were recording, he was telling me the story of someone who um is it bad? Did I fail because I had the thought of leaving somewhere? Like, no, you're allowed some flexibility. There's no rigid way of doing things. Yeah, you know, like I could be stood in a crowd watching my favorite band, and I could have the thought, oh, what if you need to leave? What if you panic? But then I'm like, well, I'm here to watch my favorite band, so I'll let that chirp away and continue watching the band and enjoy that. Yeah, that's not failure. I'm not uh obsessing on trying to get things right, and that's where I'm at, why I'm where I'm I'm at now.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Yeah. The perfectionistic part of recovery, which sometimes I think is also driven by discomfort. I mean, you know, trying to recover perfectly, I I think this is gonna sound so meta, is also an avoidance strategy or a control strategy. Because you feel so bad and you want to feel better, which is fine. And so I need to make sure that I execute this thing that's in the book or the podcast or whatever my therapist tells me, I have to execute it perfectly so that I maximize my chances of not feeling this discomfort or being unsure about the process or or or or knowing or not knowing enough. And like, yeah, but the process is one of those things where that flexibility of maybe I did distract. I don't know, maybe I did it wrong this time, but I guess that's okay. When you look back at the process, almost everybody will look back and said, wow, it made me more flexible in life in general. I'm less rigid, I'm more able to respond adaptively to challenges. Like this experience taught me more than just I don't panic or my OCD is in remission. So you know, I don't know. Are you running from the feelings? Sometimes you might be, but sometimes you're not. So but that's okay either way, because that's how all human beings do it. Why do you think everybody's addicted to scrolling on their phones or overeating or drinking or like we we are we want to get away from feeling bad? That's just anxiety disorders. So yeah. Talk about other feelings in a bit, but I think we should what we're gonna do, so we haven't did it anyway that's sort of near and dear to my heart because as the guy with all kinds of ink on his uh arms, let's play this one.

SPEAKER_00 14:38

My name is Gina, and you can use my name. Uh last week I had an appointment to get a tattoo. Um, I'd had the appointment for like two months, so I had plenty of time to worry about it. I was sure I would cry or run out of the studio screaming or otherwise embarrass myself, but I sat for the whole thing, and now I have some beautiful, meaningful art on my arm. Um thank you guys for all that you do, and uh yeah, I did it anyway.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

Well done, Gene. I love how subtle that was. Like, yeah. Yep. I did it. I now have some deep and meaningful work on my arm. Uh what she didn't include is that she actually has um Alan Shearer dressed as the Pope all the way up her arm. Well done.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Wow. That is so specific. She's American, by the way. Probably doesn't have Alan Shearer, just saying.

SPEAKER_04 15:29

That's so true. Or know who he is.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

No, I only know because of you. This is this tells us how long you and I have been friends. I actually know the name because you told me who he is.

SPEAKER_04 15:37

But it's really great. Oh, well done, Gina. That's so cool. I hope you enjoyed showing that off.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

100%. I was afraid I was gonna scream or cry or lose control or run out of the chair. Uh well, my favorite is always the analogue to that is always dental appointments. I mean, I always say, sorry, dentist, like we we probably do love you, but the anxiety deserted community hates a dentist. And I can't tell you how many times I've heard I'm really afraid that I'm gonna punch the dentist. I'm gonna get I'm gonna have to leave the chair so much that I'm literally gonna punch them and like push them down and like get out of run out of the office. So good job, Gina. Like, as it turns out, you didn't do it. You sat there, you took the pain, and now you have this cool art on your arm. Good job, or wherever.

SPEAKER_04 16:17

Yeah, that's really good. Well done, Gina. Um when is it looking at just uh obviously we're looking at things through the lens of fear and stuff like that, but sometimes people run away from all feelings. There's two acceptable feelings, calm and happy. Yeah, anything other than that is not acceptable. Yeah, we're in the bit we're in the business of all feelings are welcome. Some people need to identify other all the feelings. Sometimes you where it we are required to sit with it in air quotes, um is things like you know, like sadness, grief, yeah, anger, resentment. Maybe you've lost love, maybe you've gained love. Maybe you've you know, there's just different things. Maybe you have to sit with a sense of injustice, maybe you have to sit with tiredness, exhaustion, hyperactivity, all these different times. Um loss, maybe feeling unwell, maybe it doesn't like these are all different feelings that again when we get so obsessed with fighting anxiety and putting it on a pedestal of this big beast we have to slay, we lose access to all the other feelings too, like all those. And again, if you want really want to desensitize, this applies to all feelings too, not just oh, I'm only okay when I'm calm or happy or content or feeling nothing at all.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Yeah. I I think a lot of people try to do that. They try to do this whatever approach framework with just anxiety, fear, uncertainty. But every other negative emotion, like sadness or guilt or resentment or grief, no, no, no, that I have to control, push away, and avoid. And like you can't do it. You can't do it because often then that is gonna create that stress jug, like you know, fill up or overflow that created the problem. That's right. So, like if you don't learn how to deal with all of your emotions and allow them and know that life is gonna be sometimes difficult, you remain vulnerable. Like that's relapse prevention in a way. If we're talking about anxiety recovery, like you have to learn to handle all of your emotions. That's part of relapse prevention. Otherwise, if you run from that, it's gonna catch you and then you're gonna wind up feeling bad and and not know why. And what happens when we fail bad and not know why? We start to say that the feeling is an emergency, and we don't want that. So you gotta learn to deal with all of them, and they suck. All of them suck, except for the happy ones, of course. But what do you want to do?

SPEAKER_04 18:45

Oh no, there's other one. You can have excitement, you can that's what I mean. But I mean, the happy, the positive one's always the fun one. You know, I get anticipatory anxiety, but have you ever had positive anticipation? Sure, it's really good, yeah. Like every anytime an Arsenal player steps up to take a penalty. Yeah, I I know they're gonna spoon it over and I get really excited.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Yeah, but you know, uh so yeah, there no, all the the positive ones we love. Nobody complains about the positive internal experiences, like excitement or happiness or joy. Nobody ever complains about those. We only want to try to never feel the bad ones. And and we've developed a culture, I think, especially in the West, where we feel like, oh yeah, we figured that out. Now we could just choose to vibrate higher or choose positivity or write a gratitude journal, and that will eliminate all of my negativity. Like, who come on, guys? Like, that's not fair. We are gonna be sad. And honestly, sometimes I think if you don't learn to handle or be with certain emotions, you can miss things. And an anxiety disorder, the emotions are not signals, they're not signs. We have to we have to wholly reject that because that's the that misinterpretation is what creates the disorder.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

But yeah, what if it's my intuition?

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Right. But if you find that every time you're in a relationship that's gone on for six months, and every time you leave that person you feel terrible or like you've been harmed or or you're angry, it's a good look. That hat sure you guys don't see the video. But like then that if you just run from that feeling, you might miss something that you looks like I sell vapes to children. I was thinking along those lines for sure. Like sketchy on the margins, for sure. I sell vapes to children.

SPEAKER_04 20:26

Um, you're absolutely right. Um, completely. Um yeah, it's yeah also it's stepping out of the self-obsessive sphere that anxiety disorders pull you into. They make you selfish. You're not a selfish person, but they make you selfish. They feel like you don't have any other choice, it's dangerous to leave it alone. Right. But allow other feelings into that sphere too.

SPEAKER_03 20:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:53

And then when you know that your body can deal with it, you can tolerate, you can manage emotions, you start to get curious. One of my favorite episodes of disordered is anxiety and the death of curiosity. Um, and when you only limit yourself to two emotions and you're running away and distracting and stuff like that, kind of killing that emotional curiosity that's really important.

SPEAKER_01 21:16

Yeah, that is true. And I think people who go through the process that we're always talking about here, I'll use my own experience. Like I went through this process and that's why I'm better now. But we can get trapped. There's no delete button, right? So those old experiences are still there, those old pathways are still there, and our old framework is still there. Even though I'm fully recovered, I'm sure Josh would call himself the same. The old framework is still there. So, for instance, one of the things that I realized is when my dog Copper was getting older before he passed, it was a very stressful time for me. And but there were times when I was wondering like, am I having an anxiety problem again? Because I I wasn't curious about why I was feeling what I was feeling. I just my brain would just like flip through the Rolodex. Oh, yeah, I remember that from 22 years ago. This is anxiety. No, yeah, it wasn't. Grief, it was stress, it was sadness, it was frustration, it was all those things. And then, like, oh, I just forgot to ask what I was feeling.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

That's when you know you're you're almost, you know, kind of desensitized. It's like late, yeah, late positive stage stuff. Um, I wouldn't say I'm fully recovered, I'd just say I'm desensitized.

SPEAKER_01 22:17

Yeah, well, it it just required that like I get curious and allow myself to you know really look at those feelings instead of just automatically assuming, oh, this is a float and it just a transient experience thing. Not everything, you know. Yeah, they're all transient, that's true, but some we have to learn to really like kind of accept like humans do. I don't know if that makes sense, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:38

It's not it's not helped with those tropes and narratives like from wellness influencers or even therapists, stuff like listen to what anxiety is trying to tell you. No, yeah. My anxiety is telling me that anxiety is scary, so it gives me more anxiety. Yeah, nothing more than that. There's no magical thing, yeah. You know, my anxiety is telling me that anxiety itself is a threat. So to fight the threat, it gives me anxiety, which is the threat, which then gives me anxiety, which is then the threat, which gives me anxiety, which is then the threat. Yeah, but what is it telling you? Well, it's funny you ask that really, because it's giving me anxiety and it thinks it's the threat, which is giving me anxiety. Shut up.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Yeah, and it will never end. Uh, there was a couple of years ago, I remember there was a whole kind of trope going around on social media about the wisdom of it. You know how it is. We we get a wisdom of anxiety.

SPEAKER_04 23:29

I've I've read that book called The Wisdom of Anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

The wisdom of anxiety. No, your anxiety has no wisdom. It's not wise, it's legitimately dysfunctional and probably stupid. Like, so you know, we don't know. There's no wisdom in that. Outside of an anxiety disorder, yes, if I constantly get anxious every time I go into a meeting with this one person in my job, for instance, maybe there is something in there that I have to look at. But that's because I can say, Oh, you know, every time I gotta talk to that guy, I wind up really anxious. Yeah, that's very specific and externally focused, as opposed to like as soon as I open my eyes, I feel I'm gonna stop breathing. That has nothing to do with anything other than how I feel is a problem, right? So we got to really let it be. Right. Well, what is the what is that telling you? And you you don't run away from the feeling, you have to make sure you fully feel it. Don't do any distraction. Like, so it's it's so fuzzy. Like life is fuzzy. Everything's fucked up.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

If I have a panic attack now or adrenaline rush, yeah, I had like a mini one at a festival. What that told me was I've been burning the candle at both ends. Yeah, I'm exhausted, I'm stressed, I've not been making great choices. But then I continued at the festival to make poor choices, and then the next week I was like, okay, now I'm going to eat healthy because my anxiety was telling me this isn't sustainable.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:45

Did I immediately go home and do yoga and breathing and kale smoothies? No, I didn't. But I did make a note to not because I'm not going to respond urgently to it, because then it'll just keep higher enough. So I'm just like, okay, it's telling me I'm pushing things too far. And then yeah, so I went home, rested, and did all the night the right things.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yeah, no, you're 100% right. But you know, if we look at the whole like, what do I is distraction running? Is distraction always wrong? No, because all the stuff we're talking about here is like you learn to accept the emotions, be with them, sit with them sometimes, literally, but sometimes just feel them and bring them with you. And that's it. That's really what we're trying to do. Just can I can I show myself? I I think that when I have this feeling, the correct thing to do is to stop and save myself. I have to fix this state. I don't care if you call it saving, rescuing, and what if I try something different? I feel like I'm supposed to do that, but instead I'll load the dishwasher, go visit my friends and let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_04 25:42

Yeah. Or as you're saying that as well, I don't need to be rescued.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

Right. I because yeah, and that's the thing. Like what you're trying to learn ultimately, and however way you get there, sometimes you're distracting or distraction, sometimes you run, yeah, you make a mistake, but you will ultimately learn, not that you don't need to be rescued, but that you never had to ask that question. That's I think what most people don't recognize. They think, like, oh, I'm trying to get to the body. I have love is back. Sorry. Yes. I have love is back. The bell rings, Josh starts to salivate. It's all good. Two white guys agree with each other in a podcast. You never that never happens this week on a podcast with two white guys on microphones. They agree with each other. Put that in the highlights. You're 100% right. Like, it's really weird when you think about that. Like, no, no, no. The the question you're trying to ultimately, you're you will ultimately find out am I gonna be is it am I proving that I'm okay? No, you're learning that you never had to keep asking that question. It has always been the wrong question. And so if you use distraction or distract or redirecting of attention, not anxious you, that's how you learn that. Because in the end, like, oh, I went up okay anyway. Look, I went look, I didn't, I was wrong about needing to be saved. Maybe I just have to stop asking that. Maybe I could stop asking that. Am I okay? Yeah, really good.

SPEAKER_04 26:56

I I totally agree.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 26:58

Would you like a did it anyway?

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Of course I would. When am I ever going to turn that down?

SPEAKER_04 27:02

Would you like one from Sweden or one from an undefined place?

SPEAKER_01 27:06

I'm gonna go undefined place. Not that I don't dig Sweden, love you guys, but let's go undefined. Here we go.

SPEAKER_04 27:12

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name is Sophie, and you can use my name. I have a dual OCD themed did it anyway. You know I love um OCD and Did It Anyways, which I'm super proud of. Good. On Saturday, I volunteered to take part in a research study. I had to have a brain MRI, which involved lying in a tube for 90 minutes with no distractions. I currently have ROCD, but health anxiety used to be a huge theme for me. So the thought of lying still with ROCD thoughts and maybe finding out I had a secret brain tumour sent me into sheer panic, and I didn't sleep much the night before. I was shaking with fear on my way, and I really wanted to cancel it, but I told myself to just give it a go. I fully did it. I even fell asleep during the scan because I found it relaxing. Wow. My my brain structure is all good. My thought processes need some work, but I proved to myself how I can handle scary stuff, and I feel empowered. Thanks for the podcast and advice. I really appreciate everything you guys do.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Who falls asleep in an MRI? Good job, Sophie. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 28:27

This tells you how much absolute crap anticipatory anxiety says you've done it. Absolutely, you're gonna freak out, you're gonna be in their relationship OCD, panic, brain tumors. And then the reality hits, and you fall asleep in the tube. Like your anticipatory anxiety sucks. All of you, every listener of this podcast, you are terrible predictors of the future. You suck. It's true. I say that with I say that with love. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Many years ago in The Anxious Truth, I did a podcast episode called, you know, stop listening, stop listening to your gut. Why checking in is a terrible idea. And man, I got a lot of people coming at me for that. A lot of therapists were like, No, you check in. What do I need right now? No, your anxiety is making the wrong prediction and leading you into the mud every day, all day long. It is not helping you. So stop listening to the prediction. Well, I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 29:23

If the person doesn't have an obsessive compulsive anxiety disorder, okay, then it's different. Then then maybe you would explore that. That's right. But in this with this kind of neurodivergent way of thinking, yeah, uh when it comes to anxiety disorders, no, no checking in because it's gonna say the same crap over and over again.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Right. If I check in, like, yeah, there's that. Oh, I'm not sure that I remember my kid's birthday. If I check in, do I really know it? Do I really remember it? Am I losing my sanity? And then you're off to the races for two hours and then hate your life. Like, so no, we can't do that. Did you see that last comment here? It's good.

SPEAKER_04 29:57

Uh yeah, I was looking at the a couple of the um audience uh comments. Um, I'm passing through a bad economic situation. I've been feeling terrible. Keep blaming anxiety until I realize that it was a real problem. And I was allowed to feel sad, worried, frustrated. I'm coping better by accepting and allowing these feelings, including the anxiety. Can we have a round of applause for that one? Oh, hell yeah, we can. That's a big deal.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:29

I think because it also indicates that, like, oh, when I can recognize this is an actual real stressor on me that's making me have these feelings. Well, yeah, sometimes I just have to be with the feelings and let them come and go because they're going to be here in this situation. And sometimes the feelings are serve their purpose. Like, if you just hide from your economic situation, nothing gets better. But like that upset can inform real-world action. Like, yeah, we have to do this, we have to do this, we have to cut our expenses, whatever it is. You know, like so that's the part where we need that. So it's good. I have another person who said people consider their feelings to be authentic, in quotes. And you know, actively bringing about something else that does not seem to come from within. And I think that's a big trap too. But my feelings must be authentic. You can dismiss someone else's feelings instantly. If Josh says some crazy shit to me, I'm literally gonna all roll my eyes and just walk off.

SPEAKER_04 31:20

Which I often do.

SPEAKER_01 31:20

Oh, it's this is every day. We just call it Tuesday. So, like, if Josh does crazy shit to me, I have the ability to completely dismiss his crazy stuff that comes from inside his head. The stuff that comes from in my head, oh no. It's it's authentic, it's from me, it's real, it's a thing. I can't run away from it, I have to fully feel it. Who says? It's not right.

SPEAKER_04 31:40

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Anything else? Do you have a a did it anyway?

SPEAKER_01 31:46

I have what I think is a great did it anyway from our little disordered community here. Um won't say the person's name, but it's worth reading. So she says this weekend my husband had a softball tournament a couple of hours away. You guys play softball in the UK?

SPEAKER_04 31:59

No.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Well, you're missing something.

SPEAKER_04 32:02

Anyway, I remember in an old episode, you I I asked you what it was. Yeah, and you had to explain. I was like, oh, all right, I didn't know. It does sound fun.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

It is fun, it's very, very fun. A lot of recreational leagues here. So uh my we this weekend my husband had a softball tournament a couple hours away. Anxious Me would go with him, so I wouldn't have to be alone for the weekend, but non-anxious me used to love weekends to myself, so I stayed home. The thoughts were very sticky when he left on Friday, but I was determined to not let them take over the weekend. It also helped that my husband made me promise I would do nice things for myself while he was away. Good man. Oh I love that, right? I thought about things I used to like doing before I was anxious and new hobbies I've taken up since becoming resensitized and reducing my phone usage. I made a list of all the things I wanted to do, and here's what I achieved. This is a Billy's May Billy Mays moment for sure. Went out for breakfast alone, read my book in cafes, played paddle, cross-stitched, played guitar, and wrote a song, which is her preferred journaling method, met friends out for drinks in the sun, ordered my favorite takeaway, and watched trash TV. The weekend started off difficult as I went through the motions to tick things off my list, and then I ended up really enjoying it. My husband is on his way home now, and I'm so happy I managed to reclaim my enjoying alone time. And the Billy Mace. Yeah, 100%. Do I have it right? But I'm not done yet. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 33:18

I'm very proud of it. Well done. I that's so perfect for this episode. But aren't you just distracting yourself while your husband's away? Why do you have to sit indoors and just feel anxious all the time? Running away from it. No, you're not. You're living your life. Well done. That also sounds like a great itinerary. I would do that task. Activity to activity was wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Ate junk food, like love it, sat in the sun. I'm all for that. And you're right. Was it distracting? Yes. Was it distraction? Probably not. It sounded like the intention was no, no, I got I gotta do life the way I used to do it, the way I want to do it. And it wound up being distracting, which was fine. But the lesson to that is oh, I I don't have to. I don't just stop and take care of myself. I don't have to do that.

SPEAKER_04 34:02

So good job. Love one. Cool. Uh so yeah, is it distracting? Am I running away from feelings? You look at it and decide, well, if I fear panic and I'm just distracting myself to fear, panic, and intrusive thoughts, then sometimes you can just be like, all right, let it hit me as hard as I can. Once you've let it hit you as hard as you can, you're like, Well, I cope with that now, but onto focusing on things, my values, my life, what non-anxious me would do, you know, and and and are weak, you know, similar to that last did it anyway. Um don't try to get all um all perfectionist and try to fight absolute certainty and if I'm doing things right or techniqueifying. No, we don't do that. Just sometimes you just gotta shrug your shoulders. It's okay. You can have flexibility, you can have ambiguity, yeah, and you can just leave it alone.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

How about a 30-second reframe to wrap it up? Instead of thinking, am I running away from the feelings? How about can I walk away from the process? Because the process is my feelings get turned into an emergency. So, like, yeah, I don't have to run from the feelings. I have to walk out of that process and go to a different process because that process is not helping me. And that's okay. Run from that process. Go ahead, it's fine.

SPEAKER_04 35:11

Yeah, you made me a lot of Pavlova today. Thank you. That's some some some good stuff. It comes out with some decent stuff now and then, Audrey. It's about time, actually.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

I haven't had one in a couple of episodes.

SPEAKER_04 35:21

Every episode that's a prime number will come out with something.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

Uh, very good. Anyway, uh, thank you, our studio audience. It's getting harder and harder to find.

SPEAKER_04 35:34

One, two, three, five, eleven, seven filling in.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

And then it just Yeah, now we're at 168. I gotta wait like every six or eight weeks to get a prime number episode to be good at this. Math sucks, man. Uh, anyway.

SPEAKER_04 35:48

If you'd like to come and join the disordered community, you can do. Um, there's nothing hidden in there, but there's articles and resources. Um, people in Did It Anyway forums. Um, recently opened the coffee room, which is nice, just an open um Zoom room. You can pop in and chat to others if you want to. Me and Drew uh often uh pop in there. Uh, we do uh round tables and stuff, all included in the subscription, as well as live Q ⁇ A's and things like that. Um go check out the disorder guide to health anxiety on Amazon um and follow us on social media if you like. And oh, if you could leave a review whether you wherever you listen to us, if it's a star rating or a nice review, we'd really appreciate that. Um, and yeah, we'll catch you every Friday.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Yeah, we're back next week with something that we'll figure out three minutes before we hit the record button, it appears. That's right. Anyway, guys, thanks for hanging out. We'll see you next week.