Anxiety Always Has A Strategy, and Its Nonsense (Episode 165)

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hi Josh and Drew. I wanted to share an insight I had recently that I thought could be helpful for someone else. Um one morning recently I woke up and my partner had come down with the flu next to me in bed. And having been exposed, I started to think, okay, I'll probably get sick within the next few days. Um and in those days, not even really anxiously, but more just in anticipation of being sick, I started to tune into my body more. And I was starting to notice, oh yeah, I do have a bit of a headache. I think I have some body aches. I might have some chills. I was super tired. I took a bunch of naps. Um, and then come to find like three or four days later, I never got sick. Um, and once I realized I wasn't getting sick, all those symptoms went away and I moved on with my life. So often there is the experience with anxiety of trying so hard to prevent something or to anticipate. And when that happens, we are kept on that hamster wheel of anxiety. But also we can start to, when we're that anxious, create some of those experiences for ourselves. When our body is that sensitized to something being potentially dangerous and wrong, it will find any indication of it happening. And I just kind of had this insight that, you know, when I actually have been sick in the past, when I've woken up with the flu in my own life, there was nothing I needed to do ahead of time. I just woke up, realized I was sick, called into work, took some medicine, went to sleep, whatever it is. And I think such can be the case with anxiety too. You know, it's not a matter of when we accept anxiety, deluding ourselves as nothing bad will ever happen to us in our entire lives. But rather it is realizing when something bad happens to me, I will be able to meet that moment at that moment and not a moment sooner, right? And so in the meantime, there is no use in going on this hamster wheel and actually creating the reality that I am so desperately trying to avoid. Thank you guys for all you do.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Welcome to Disorder. This is episode 165 of the podcast. Uh, we are talking about poking holes in the strategy that anxiety will hand you. Uh, I am Drew Linsolata, I am a therapist that specializes in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders uh in the state of New York, also a former sufferer of the things we talk about here on Disordered, uh, an author, uh psychoeducator, advocator, social media dude, and uh yeah, joined as always by my esteemed co-host from across the pond.

SPEAKER_04 2:10

Hi, everyone. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist and author specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm based in Manchester in the UK, and I write books on the topic. Um the host of the Wonderful Disorder Podcast. I also do a little one of short bits of called The Panic Pod. And yeah, it's my favorite time of the week. Well good um question to send, like reflection to send in.

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Yeah, it was really great. That was she didn't uh wanted us to not use the name, but that was really awesome. Uh it wasn't really a question or did it anyway. Well, it kind of was like, you know, hey, I realized I look at that. I I I'm not sick, I'm fine, I can just go on my life.

SPEAKER_04 2:51

But can I get nerdy straight up? 100% get nerdy, let's do it. Yeah. So a lot of people, particularly when they get health anxiety, they get put in the this state of anticipatory anxiety where the illusion that they're getting symptoms and that the symptoms appear worse than what they are. Now, to in order to understand that, you've got to understand the nocebo effect. Nocebo, or you know, if you really want to be nerd, nocebo algesia. And it's a phenomenon where the brain, particularly under threat, um, releases a chemical called colocystokinin, which is or CCK for short. And so colecystokinin is released, which amplifies the neuropeptides in your brain to do with pain amplification and discomfort that signals to the nervous system. So, yeah, actually, sometimes being nervous and being in anticipatory anxiety creates a nocebo effect where you then actually start to experience symptoms. Are the symptoms of part of that really horrendous thing that you thought that your brain? No, probably not. But you are going to start noticing, like, you know, if I keep obsessing and putting keep myself in a stressed response, that the CCK in my brain that does actually create those physical symptoms because I'm stressing myself out. For more nerdiness, please tune into disorder.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

That was super nerdy, and I'm here for all of that. Use code, use discount code nerd for 10% our off our CCK buster supplement. Uh, we got a subject.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

Call it Sister Kinan as well. Like, that's such a like sounds like like an ethereal underground DJ. Yeah. That only plays at 4 a.m.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Nocebo and Algita. That's actually my middle name. How did you know that? I love it. Sound Italian.

unknown 4:43

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

Really great. That's so cool. I feel like somehow if we were real podcasters, we would tell you that that's the problem and then sell you a solution to that problem, some sort of supplement or hack. So we got to get on that. So I I love it. The nerdiness is really good because you're right. I mean, there's that's the biological nerdiness part and the computational psychiatry and psychology thing. The you know, lived uh subjective experience construction tells us what we are looking for is what we get. That is true. And last week you took a little, a very minor swipe at manifestation. I'll take one this week. That's sort of where the manifestation crowd comes through. Like, see, you you make your experience. No, not really, but you kind of get what you look for. So, I mean, I've been looking for, you know, uh $60 million under my desk for years now, and it just hasn't showed up. But uh you tell your experience tends to be dictated by what you're looking for. And this person really showed that so well. And I love the insight there. Like, yeah, I was looking for it, and so there it was. And as it turns out, yeah, I wasn't actually sick, I was just looking for it. And so it felt like it. Really good. Um we have one of our studio audience said, I've been looking for money, still waiting. But I think it doesn't get yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:49

Uh never good things is it's never.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

No, it's never good, right. No, I'm manifesting that. I was looking for it and it happened.

SPEAKER_04 5:54

But like, yeah, if you're making how many manifestors manifest a book deal.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

Is it right?

SPEAKER_04 5:58

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

I'm inherited wealth. It's funny because the strat well, the strategy that she calls out, and I want to talk about strategy this week. I'm stuck on that a little, but I'm not gonna lie, I'm a little stuck on a strategy thing. Because we can argue that like nobody wants to get the flu, right? And this is really big in OCD and health anxiety, of course. Like, your health is important. Uh your OCD theme is probably an important theme. Like, nobody wants to go insane, nobody wants to harm people, nobody wants to be a bad person. Yeah, all true. Except the strategy that the anxiety disorder offers for addressing that is the wrong strategy. In fact, often it is it is offering a strategy where no strategy can be applied. So this person said that perfectly. Like there was nothing. If I actually do get the flu, I wake up, I feel like crap, I call in from work, I I take some medicine, I go to sleep until I feel better. There's no preparing or anticipating to do. But yet, an anxious brain, health anxiety, any anxiety disorder, OCD, will insist that it is preparing you, it's protecting you, it's it's it's it's keeping you sharp, it's getting you ready for what? There's that is the wrong strategy. What was your anxiety preparing you for? What did it what did it tell you it was protecting you from or preparing you for?

SPEAKER_04 7:10

Oh, it's the same song. Imagine it with ukulele sat on a wall, um, just going, keep an eye on it, just in case, keep an eye on it, just in case, keep an eye, and that's all it used to say. And then I'd be like, I don't need to, it's anxiety. And it'd be like, How do you know? Keep an eye on it, just how do you know? Yeah, um, that's a palpitation, it's fine, it's a common symptom. Yeah, yeah, but how do you know? Keep an eye on it. That's all I used to tell.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

The funny thing about that is from a strategy standpoint, even if it isn't anxiety, and that palpitation is a problem, the strategy your anxiety was offering is still not a good, it still doesn't matter. It's still a pointless strategy. It's the illusion of control, safety, predicting, knowing. It's not actually anything. So sometimes I see it in emetophobia. Yeah, I have a lot of emetophobia in my practice. And when I, you know, somebody will say, like, oh, did you, you know, I heard I got an alert on my phone about a neurovirus outbreak. I'm like, okay, well, why do you why do you need that? And what's what's happening? Well, since I got it, I've been just fixated, I'm obsessing, I've had panic attacks, I'm I'm losing my mind, I've locked myself in my room, or whatever, you know, that's typical of an emetophobe. And I'm like, okay, well, what is that doing for you? Well, that's I'm preparing. I'm preparing. And they will insist that's preparation. I'm like, is it like this? That's not preparation, it's not preparation at all. Is it helping you? Is it what are you prepared for? Is it happening? So it's always just in case though, yeah, isn't it? 100%.

SPEAKER_04 8:30

Yeah, it's always just in case. Yeah. But everything, every anxiety disorder is just in case.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Yep. I I feel like I'm doing something. I'm preparing, I'm protecting, I'm predicting, I'm knowing. I'm I don't know what, but like, but are you?

SPEAKER_04 8:44

You know. Yeah, no, no, you're just not you're you're eating into like the minutes that you could be spending engaging in the day. Yeah. You know, and it's like again, it feels safe, it feels responsible, but no, like like that, again, that is what anxiety is telling you like yo, this is the strategy you should do, which is okay, but remember it that's the same threat response that's never had to evolve for thousands, thousands, thousands of years. Yeah, so it doesn't mind being wrong because it's smug and it's like, well, I've saved your life a couple of times, so I don't mind being wrong. Yeah. You know, absolutely not. Reminds me of Roberto Martinez, the Wigan Athletic manager in 2012. Um, he relegated Wigan Athletic from the which to be fair is no shame. They're not a you know massive team. Sorry if there's any Wigan fans out there, there isn't. Uh, and they got relegated. Uh, but in the same season, they beat Manchester City in the FA Cup final, you know, and so Roberto Martinez now can walk the streets of Wigan, and despite getting every game wrong, the ones that mattered, he can glow. Yeah, and so what I'm going with with this loose analogy is that anxiety will convince you to give your attention because, well, it won the cup once, you know. Good job you trusted it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:06

Or it's famous for like the strat no, no, this is the right strategy. Well, how do you know? Well, because the bad thing didn't happen. Wait, wait, what? You know, so uh I will often counter that with like, well, I would prefer that my house not get hit by a comet. So every day I go out and I I burn herbs and I chant and I do a special dance, and sure enough, I know I've seen you do that. I send video usually. So and then my house is intact. And you know, it then there's laughter in the room, like, oh, I see what you're saying here. Like, oh, but it didn't happen. That's the classic overthinking thing. You're worrying about things that never happen. I know it works, right? So it's it's very it's like, oh, I won that one game, so I must have been right. Must have been wrong.

SPEAKER_04 10:45

And the brain on some level must do that. Like, oh yeah. Like the analogy I use, do you know when we talk about getting the credit, which is so important? Let's say take the small example, and you can apply this example to however your anxiety presents. You know, you go to work and you worry that you've not locked your front door to your house, and you spend all day worrying about it. Oh, what if I've not locked it? What if this and that? Oh my god, I hope I hope no one's broken. What if I've not locked it? And yeah, no, we can check it or whatever. Uh and you get home and you find out, oh yeah, you know what? It wasn't locked. Yeah. But thankfully, no one robbed my house. Your brain then will remember all the things that you did and attribute credit to the bad thing not happening because you worried about it all day. Weird on a weird level. Whereas actually, if you're like, screw it, if you get robbed, they get robbed, whatever. And then come home, the same outcome would have applied. But on some weird level, you felt like you were kind of controlling the universe by worrying about it, affecting the outcome, you know. I'm a hypocrite because I do that with football. I feel I get worried that if I'm not watching my team play, they're somehow not gonna win or something like that. So yeah, you see, I can see why people do it, but that's a healthy way of looking at it. But when you it's really affecting your day, yeah, yeah. Notice that the worry gets the credit weirdly. The brain remembers the pattern you did and then remembers the outcome of the bad thing that didn't happen.

SPEAKER_03 12:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:21

So that that's got that that gets the credit.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

And that makes no, it makes perfect sense because that pattern making and connection making that our brains do by default. Like, oh yeah, I connect pulling over. I I felt like I was driving and I felt like it was gonna pass out. Okay, well, what prevented you from passing out? Oh, I pulled over and I had some water. Uh does that prevented you from passing out? That is was it magic water? Is the shoulder of the road magic? Like, did it do something to your blood? And you know, that it's really hard for an anxious person, and that's a very typical example, to get their brain around the idea that, like, no, no, no, no, no, you you were never gonna pass out. You don't understand. Pulling over didn't didn't prevent you from passing out. You were just never gonna pass out. Or I went home. Uh you know, I felt like I was having a heart attack. Well, what did you do? I went home. I felt better. Wow. And I remember having to come to the realization like my sofa is a is comfortable, but it cannot be magical. There's no way that it's keeping me from having this stroke. I cannot go back to my sofa and say the medical emergency is over. That can't be. But yet I think one of the things that's difficult is feeling like the strategy is correct because the thing you're worried about is in fact important, is one of the things that keeps people from trying that willful tolerance, fully letting go, surrendering. Like just go ahead, let it happen. Go ahead, go crazy. But uh no, then I'd be abandoning my protection strategy, which is if I just keep thinking about am I am I insane? Am I am I losing it? Is my memory that I'll somehow I'm protecting myself from that outcome. But you're not. You're actually not.

SPEAKER_04 13:46

Yeah. Sure, we have a dit it anyway. Did you find one in the audio bank?

SPEAKER_02 13:51

I did find one in the audio back, and it's pretty good. So let me see if this one will play properly.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Hello, my name is Megan, and I'm from Kansas, and I just wanted to share a dit it anyway. So I took a friend of mine to visit a sick relative um yesterday, and we went down to uh Wichita, Kansas, and uh we sat outside with a sick relative who couldn't could not speak, and I was really hungry and I was starting to panic because I was afraid and I did not uh pass out, and eventually those uh intense feelings went away, and then I was able to maybe an hour later have a great lunch with my friend, and then we went back and visited her relative after lunch. So I just want to thank you both for everything that you do. I very much appreciate it. You have helped me immensely. Um, I have uh panic disorder, anxiety disorder, and um I've tried everything uh that these hacks have uh proposed, and nothing worked. Uh, the only thing working is just getting over myself and realizing that I am not special in the fact that I have anxiety and life can continue to go on and I can continue to sit through uh uncomfortable moments. So thank you, Josh and Drew. I very much appreciate you. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Good job, Megan. Thank you for sharing that.

SPEAKER_04 15:30

Uh well done, Megan. I put uh that put a really big smile on my face. And um that was very impressive. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

You know my favorite line was the these hacks. Nothing these hacks helps.

SPEAKER_04 15:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually, I realized the only thing that I can, you know, that that that can help me is me. Yeah. Um, which is a which is a solid realization. Um so yeah, well done, Megan. Thanks for sharing that.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Absolutely. Where's the strategy the strategy match match in that one? So Megan says she has panic disorder. Panic disorder delivers a strategy that says if I feel this sensation, then you then I must eat right now, because that means I'm gonna pass out, and the eating keeps me from passing out. So in this really great story, I'm like, well, I didn't I didn't eat for an hour. I stayed with the situation. I I supported my friend and then their sick loved one, and like I didn't eat for an hour and I didn't pass out. So the strategy was is 100%. I'm watching for passing out, and I will tell you, pan uh panic disorder person, when I feel a thing that means passing out, then you must do this. You must eat, and then you won't pass out. That is the wrong strategy to prevent passing out.

SPEAKER_04 16:34

So yeah, uh that was one I used to do. I remember like safety behaviors like oh, I need to eat, and I must always have sugar and all that stuff. You know, don't get me wrong, you know, if I'm diabetic and stuff, yeah. But like I wasn't doing it for that, I was doing it because I was afraid of the feeling of anxiety. Yeah, exactly. Um I've got did it anyway. Do you want to hear it?

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Yeah, bring it.

SPEAKER_04 16:55

I went through the uh the the written, the the archives. Um and if you've got a did it anyway that's audio or written, send it into disordered.fm and we love to read and read them out or read them and we try to get through them all and uh yeah, we really appreciate it. Hello, Josh and Drew. Uh we'll share a little did it anyway as a person that has an anxiety disorder, especially regarding health for four and a half years now. Lately I've been a little more anxious than usual, and I made the mistake of frantically asking Chat GPT about all the symptoms that I feel, and for about two months I did that a lot. Last week I removed my wisdom tooth, hopefully not by yourself. And I was in a spiral one month because of because of that. During my recovery, I hit my head in a door by mistake, and of course, I read that I am not allowed to take ibuprofen. And my mind went crazy with checking all the possible symptoms of a brain injury. I stopped taking medicines for my tooth. I struggle in general with taking medication. And then last night I had a huge headache, probably due to my muscle tension. However, I went like cra it I went like crazy and also being home alone. After half an hour of thinking something bad is gonna happen, I took a paracetamol. Still, my mind did not allow me to take ibuprofen, and then went straight to bed thinking if I'm gonna die, then at least it will be in my bed. And if not, then I'm going to write this too disordered. I woke up this morning, funnily enough. I still have a light headache, but I got dressed and came to work. I'm trying to stop checking how I feel. I am not feeling my best. My attention is there, but I am trying.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

Oh, I love that. Well done. That humor got dark fast. At least I'll die in my own bed. Incredulous. Oh my god. I woke up. I know, right?

SPEAKER_04 18:53

Because it feels really at the end of the anxiety prediction machine of this is gonna happen, this is gonna do that, and and and what actually happens is so far off.

SPEAKER_02 19:00

Once again, incorrect. And it's funny because other anxious people listening to that could maybe relate to the fear, but you can always call out other people's strategy mismatches. Like, that's preposterous. What do you mean? You hit your head on the door and you were thought you were gonna die and you couldn't tell like that's crazy. Except, no, no, no, but but when I feel air hunger, that's not crazy. Then my strategy is correct. But my emetophobia, that's strategy. No, mine is not crazy. Just be aware of that. Yeah, right. Yours feels valid, it feels real, it feels special. The the first person that opened the show gave us that whole, like, oh, I had to realize uh this is not special. Or no, it was Megan who sent in the dead anyway. I'm not special. This is not special. This is just everybody goes through this and I can get over it.

SPEAKER_04 19:36

So I'm not special. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:39

Yeah. I think and insisting on the specialness is what drives that. I know I have to adopt the strategy. I have to adopt the strategy because this is really important. Remember, we had David Veal on. He was talking about, you know, death anxiety. That was such a great episode. The Amazon cardboard, cardboard casket uh episode. You know, it's funny because he he was, you know, and and David specializes in treating, and he's a kind of an expert in that, like people who have that uh, what do they call it? Fanatophobia, the fear of death or fixation of death. And he was like, well, how do you deal with that? Well, go live. Like, because even though death is real and none of us wants it, there is no strategy for fixing that. Like there is no strategy for death because it's just an immutable law of reality that we all face. And I think one of the things that gets so uncomfortable when we look at anxiety as a strategy mismatch. And when I work with people with OCD, sometimes they get really upset. Like, no, no, don't say it's a strategy mismatch. I'm not even sure it's OCD, it's protecting me, right? So it leaves us confronted with uh the reality of the universe, which is bad things happen. We don't know they're gonna happen. There's nothing we can do to predict them or protect them. Things that happen in our own heads don't change who we are, how people think of us. We can't control many things. People hate that. Anxious people really hate that. And I think you know, calling anxiety a strategy mismatch is really calling that out. I don't like that, but it's true.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Yeah, yeah, it's true. And it tries to predict as well. Like when you're looking at the prediction machines like that, uh particular stuff like death anxiety and things it's it can't predict it because it doesn't know.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

That's right. It has no idea, it only knows that it is going to happen, it has no idea how, when, why, and like thinking about it is literally pointless. There's yeah, it's zero effect strategy, zero. Like, okay, but it feels like I'm doing something because it's so important and it scares me and it upsets me so much that isn't it right to obsess about it. No, it's it's actually not. Just be upset. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 21:34

You're so right about that. Isn't it right to obsess about this? Yeah, I think that actually encapsulates a lot of this community. Yeah, it feels right, like I'm doing something. Sure. Every time there's a problem in my life, when I put energy, focus, and attention on that problem, it gets solved quicker. Yep. Great. Except anxiety disorders give you something not to solve.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

No, but how can you say that? I've had panic attacks for years, I've not left the house, I've wasted. Years blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_04 22:01

Yeah, but because you've given it attention and effort, don't you want it scary and it's different factors, but taking your intelligent mind and your enthusiasm to problem solve this, you see how it backfires. I do, Drew's seen it. Yep. You know, if I just do all that, the skill is learning to leave it alone while scared. Yeah. Rolling pentamillion guns and playing with the willful tolerance of uncertainty.

SPEAKER_02 22:29

And we always have to remember that the reason why we could call out what I'm calling a strategy mismatch, or there's no point in the strategy. It's a useless, erroneous, ridiculous, pointless strategy, even though it feels like you're supposed to adopt it, is because Yeah, but there's a person in our studio audience who's saying her biggest worry is what if I take my own life? A very common fear among anxious people. I know Josh and I could read that comment and just sort of like, yeah, we've heard that. I'm gonna hear that six times today. Like you're not gonna. The fact that it worries you is all you need to know about it. But because that's such an important topic, then clearly the strategy of watching for that, protecting against that, like monitoring my thoughts, making sure there are no knives in the house, surely that must be correct. But we we're always saying, no, no, no, that's what that's the wrong strategy, not because it's not an important topic, but because the prediction is wrong. It's always wrong. It's always it's protecting you against the problem it tells you is a problem. It sounds familiar. Would you would you agree that uh it doesn't require a strategy? Oh, it requires no strategy. Because there's no problem. Like, yes, like you know, self-harm is a problem, but this particular person self-harming is clearly not a problem because she doesn't want to do that, has no intention of doing it. It's a very common theme among anxious people. You guys probably recognize it, but there's no problem. So anxiety is literally like a cult leader where it makes a problem, it tells you that there's a problem that doesn't exist, and then it tells you it has the solution. That's what it does. Here's a problem. Look, there's a problem. Well, that why is that a problem? How do I know it's a problem? Because I'm really upset. So that confirms there's a problem, and then it will offer me a solution, which is monitor your thoughts all day long. Wait, what? It doesn't make any sense at all.

SPEAKER_04 24:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, I yeah, I I see that. Um, it just wants to get it wants to pull you into creating and perfecting a strategy, yeah, whether it's finding the technique to make it go away or protecting against the catastrophe, and we just got to strategize against all outcomes here. It's like no.

unknown 24:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:29

If you are if you have to have a strategy, the strategy is oh yeah, I already made a strategy before, and that's to work on willful tolerance and not engaging with with triggers. Yeah. That is the strategy. But here I am engaging with the trigger. I've gone back to the drawing board to try and make a new strategy because it's new what if. Oh, that's the one that's special and important. And no, it's not.

SPEAKER_02 24:53

And then the content, you know, we talk about content versus process or content versus mechanism. I like mechanism better, actually, that you use. And like then you're constantly shifting the strategy to deal with the content. Because, like, oh well, I I had a routine that was really great, and I and my OCD has been under wraps, but oh no, I did something different, or like, oh no, it flared up again. So therefore I have to now change I I need to modify that strategy because that was working and now it's not working. So now I need a new strategy that's directly content or thought or symptom-based. No, no, no, no. The strategy is to recognize what's going on and stay connected to the idea that oh no, I'm uncomfortable and I'm trying to fix that in the end. So yeah, kind of tough. Uh, how about a did it anyway from our community? I I have one queued up and ready to go. This was uh Can we analyze the strategy of this one? Uh this is a good one because this person just ran roughshod all over the strategy of anxiety. It was really great. So it's a new person in our little disordered community, which you can find more about at disordered.fm. But uh this person says, hi, this is both a did it anyway and a what non-anxious you would do. Yesterday I did it anyway, and I talked about how I went to Target Rainbow and drove with my mom. Today, and it's true, there were two did it anyways in a row. Today I did it alone. Like, ah, I needed to return some stuff that I got yesterday. And when I walked in my mom's room, she was relaxing and trying to sleep. She said I could take the car and that she has faith in me. Go, mom. Not anxious, me would drive there and do it. My hands are still sweaty while writing this. I have been dealing with anxiety around not getting enough sleep and eating too little because it will make me feel like poo-poo. Quote exact quote. Love it. These are still struggles for me, but I can do hard things while feeling like poo-poo. So I got ready, took the car keys. I was so anxious that I forgot the items I needed to return, been there. So I had to go back and grab them. Uh, drove around my street once and then onto the main road. My legs were wobbly, but I did it. I read in 7% slower, that's the book I wrote, or one of them, that stu uh stumbling legs can still walk, so shaky legs are can still drive. I got there and parked and bought the items I needed to return. Remembering to go 7% slower, walk into Rainbow, I guess the shop she was in. Man, I hated waiting for the lady to return my stuff, but I tried playing my focus on my breath and elsewhere. Uh, when putting my card to the machine, I noticed that I was shaking and instantly told myself, stop. But then I remembered it's okay to shake, and the return was a success.

SPEAKER_04 27:12

Oh right?

SPEAKER_02 27:13

Then she went to Target. This is a Billy Mays moment. Then she went to Target. She had to wait in line for the returns, freaking out that they wouldn't do the return. I told myself, if it doesn't get returned that way, it's okay. I noticed I started rehearsing what to say to the lady while waiting in line. So instead I started reading the signs that were behind her. Now right? Like so it's a constant, I'm constantly recognizing the strategy. Yeah. I mean, it it's really long, but I just want to do the whole like I walked back to the car. Yeah. Um, I walked back to the car and drove home in one piece. Can you tell that I really like the anime one piece? And well, here I am writing all of this now. In the store, I could not wait to tell my story in the community. I'm I'm worried that I broke a rule and we'll get in trouble. Don't know why. But if I do, then I do. And I will learn and hopefully have some grace. We got this, you guys. We can do hard things. This is so good.

SPEAKER_04 28:01

Yeah, that's a Billy Mays award. I love the different the observing of the thoughts, the habits, the metacognitive awareness. Yep. That is so good. I've I've I've come catch myself even on a roll like I'm rehearsing, it doesn't matter what I say. I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna keep them. It's so good. Like, honestly, that's so, so good. Yeah, one of the studio audience said, From poo-poo to woo-hoo. That's a very good thing. Which I do enjoy, I did enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Super appreciate that. I felt like poo-poo, love it. Um, I've the forgetting the thing I was gonna return. Um, we have all been there. I remember doing those scary things in those days and like just being absolutely scatterbrained. It just wasn't working well, but okay, no worries. Got it. Yeah, I I one of the things that's really cool is that is just recognizing and then just pooping all over the strategy, like aggressively and disrespectfully, which I love. The strategy is rehearse what you're gonna say to the lady when you get up to the counter. Oh no, no, I'm not doing that strategy. I'm gonna read the signs, I don't know, about whatever. Like so really, really good. And the person who sent that in or wrote that is also the person who said that their biggest fear is what if I harm myself. Well, notice the strategy that goes around the prediction. There's no difference between the prediction, what if I harm myself, and what if they don't accept the items for return. It's the exactly the same, just that one feels much more important. So just notice the strategy that your anxiety will suggest to you to protect yourself from that horrible thing. Read the sign instead. I don't know. Like do something else. It's okay, you know, it's gonna be all right. So great, really, really great.

SPEAKER_04 29:33

Madam, it appears someone has chewed with their teeth through this gown. We can't take that. Uh wow, yeah, yeah. Really good. Yeah, someone someone said the other I I literally visualized the whole story in my head saying that that's so so good. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:52

Love it, love it. Um, I've got a did it anyway in a question.

SPEAKER_04 29:55

Bring it, which I put to you, Drew. Oh, a surprise question. I like this one. I I selected this one. Um, some people are quite sneaky on on disorder.f and like, I've got a question, but they're more likely to read it if I put throw in a disorder anyway in there, which is sneakiness that I really respect. So keep doing it. And I really like this one. Um, here we go. This is from Julia. Um, hello and greetings from sunny Finland. Believe it or not. I like to share it, did it anyway, followed by a question. In my active anxiety and panic, I couldn't even think about exercise. This led me to being quite unfit. However, in the last month, I've actually been exercising actively despite it being one of my major fears. Well done. Yay, she says. However, I've noticed my stress cup filling up more easily now, and I found myself quite irritable and short-tempered, mentally exhausted, and fearful of new bodily sensations, aches and pains all over. I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk about the negative impact on starting exercise again. All I hear is that it's meant to solve all your problems. Can you two relate? And how would you advise to deal with the extra physical stress that strenuous exercise can bring to a former anxiety sufferer? I don't want to quit all of this as a safety behavior, but I can easily see that happening.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

Sure. Well, first of all, round of applause for it exactly from doing a brave thing, 100%. And I'm answer that directly. Like, what do you mean no one ever talked about that? I literally made multiple podcast episodes of The Anxious Truth on exactly this. Why is exercising making me feel worse? I thought it's supposed to make me feel better.

SPEAKER_04 31:40

Yeah, and also I I don't want to poo-poo on the parade. Yeah, but like you you come really far, and I think this is a perfectionism issue where, in the sentence, uh what advice can you give about exercise to a former anxiety sufferer? To me, that suggests that actually it's not okay to have feelings again. No, no, I I've gone that now, but when I go and exercise, right, I'm having sensations I don't like. There's still a bit to desensitize to there. You know, like you can't just be like, it's fine there, but in the gym that's the problem.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:14

Um, it's okay. It sounds like there's like a well, those there's some things that are currently unacceptable, feelings and sensations that are still unacceptable, and stuff that you are acceptable. So you don't get wrong, you do it really, really well. Yeah, there's still a bit of work there to go. It's not, oh, I finished it, and this is a trap that people finished. I've overcome now. This is why I never use the word recovered, you know, like uh not anymore. I've I've recovered, I'm over now, but yeah, there's some unaccepted stuff. You're still working on the same thing, just a little bit uh less intense.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Yeah, it does it does kind of have that intimation, doesn't it? Like, oh, I'm great, I'm recovered, except when these sensations pop up. And honestly, I I love that you're actually like, don't stop, but keep in mind that people like Josh and I will often use exercise as part of therapy. Like we call that interoceptive exposure. Like right, if you are scared of your heartbeat, I'm gonna start to suggest when you're ready for that that we start really making your heart race in therapy so that you can actually just sit and feel that heart racing thing. So exercise is a spectacular form of interoceptive exposure. If I'm still scared of the sense the sensations that it produces, then that tells me I have to exercise and learn that it's that's okay.

SPEAKER_04 33:32

Do you know a lot of the interoceptive exposure I do is for people addicted to exercise because they can't sit still?

SPEAKER_02 33:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

So actually, interoceptive exposure can be someone sat still not doing any exercise. Yeah. So I've got if you're listening, like, oh no, I exercise is a safety behavior, I'm like, I've got your number. Yeah. Interfteroceptive exposure is sit and do nothing when it's gym time.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

Because sometimes the interoceptive is based on the bodily, you know, experience. But like in sometimes it's that like, no, but if I just sit still, I can't just sit still, like I'm buzzing, so I have to work off, I have to burn off the adrenaline, which by the way is a mistake. Because there's more adrenaline when you exercise, so that's nonsense. But okay, you know, but yeah, no, keep going. Like question sender, or you know, did it anyway sender in error? Like, keep going. It's okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

Is there more adrenaline when you exercise?

SPEAKER_02 34:16

Yeah, that's not even a question. If you go into the literature in exercise physiology and and kinesiology, like you hook people up and take their blood while they're exercising. The cortisol and adrenaline, they are the performance hormones. That doesn't go down, it goes up.

SPEAKER_04 34:30

It's so funny because I found it really calming.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Yeah, well, that's fine. And that is true. It's a paradoxical thing, but that it tells you that sometimes we put way too much emphasis on, oh, it's adrenaline and cortisol. I have to manage my adrenaline and cortisol. Yeah, I do that. Yeah, and no, but don't we don't because like when you exercise, you they serve a purpose. They're there for a reason. They're resource mobilization hormones. We don't we don't need to keep them down. We need them. They do it.

SPEAKER_04 34:51

You are mobilizing the hormones. You are 100% probably why it feels less intense than when you're sat on the bus.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Oh, well, because you know why you feel that way. That's exactly right. Yeah, so so for some people, interoceptives are meaningless because you know, I've worked with people where if they're just sitting on you're right, if they're sitting on their sofa and they notice their heart beating a little more quickly than it's supposed to, that's a problem. But they'll get on the treadmill and sprint for 15 minutes at 180 beats per minute. That's fine. They have no worry about that. Well, I made that. I know.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

So yeah, I've had a lot of uh somatic OCDs over the years as well, and they very common this, I don't know if you've ever had this, they'll have cardiophobia and they're afraid of their heartbeat, or afraid of there's something wrong with their heart. So they compulsively run marathons to test to prove themselves that there's nothing wrong with their heart. Yeah, but that but it's a compulsion, so they keep doing it. And you do realize you're run like if there was something wrong with your heart, you wouldn't be able to do back-to-back marathons constantly without something, um, which I find fascinating. And then there's other people like, no, I hate, I think there's something wrong with my heart. So I don't even walk up my own stairs. That was me. I wouldn't even walk up my own stairs. Yep, me too. I get it.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

It's so interesting because not that it's today's topic, and then I'll I'll shut up, but I I noticed just a few years ago when I was going through formal MBSR training, like, holy crap, remember we always say there's no those old pathways still exist, there's no delete buttons, Stephen Hayes is fond of saying, and he's right. I was still like I developed the habit of problem solving my heartbeat back when I was terrified of it. Now that was fear-based. So if I anytime I noticed my heart, that was we cannot have that. And we got to calm down, sit down, breathe, slow it down. I discovered years and years later, no fear around it, but I was still reflexively, automatically problem solving my heartbeat. So if I noticed my heart was going faster than I guess I thought it was supposed to be in a given context, I would start to do things to slow it down. And I'm like, holy crap, I've been doing this for 10 years, 10, 12 recovered years. Didn't even know I was doing it. So wow. Who knew, right? Anyway, we have anything else that we want to talk about? Strategy mismatch, anxiety will tell you.

SPEAKER_03 37:03

Pick holes in the strategy.

SPEAKER_04 37:05

Yeah, you know, pick holes in it. Um, see it as the captain of the HMS Colin, your anxiety. Love it. Too many holes in it.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

Yeah. So I mean, the challenge to the strategy is is there even something to be solved here? Is there actually did it tell me there's a problem and then gave me the solution? What if that's not right? That doesn't sound right. It sounds like a scam to me.

SPEAKER_04 37:25

Oh, yeah. Oh, so if someone in the audience said, I do sometimes worry when there is something wrong with my heart, I'll be like, it's just anxiety and ignore the danger. Well, that's the strategy, isn't it? What was my ukulele song? Uh oh yeah, just in case. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Just in case, keep it that's exactly right. You know what? Let's end with that because that whether it is a somatic thing or uh insanity or morality or being a good person or whatever, you know, ROCD type of thing. It's always, yeah, but what if I get so good at accepting it that I I miss the part where I accidentally have an affair and cheat on my partner? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I need to keep going. Right. No, no, no, no, no. That that's part of the problem it has suggested to you that it needs to protect you from this outcome that isn't happening. So that that's not a thing.

SPEAKER_04 38:12

I've just been reminded of a wonderful interactive exposure I did years ago. Yeah. So someone in the audience said, My heartbeat goes up when I eat. Took a long time to accept that. I remember someone that I did interaccept exposure, we sat there and we had Scotch bonnet peppers, and I ate it with them. I was like, watch what happens to your heart rate when we eat Scotch bonnet. Here we go. And we sit there. It's pretty good. My heart rate went higher than theirs. I was like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

It's cool because it gets you back in a very safe, controlled way. It it lets you become friendly with your body again. Interceptor, I'm a huge fan of that. Huge fan.

SPEAKER_04 38:48

It is fun, it's really fun. It's like when you're spinning around on a chair or whatnot.

SPEAKER_02 38:53

It's like the first time I actually had somebody, and honestly, it worked great, but and I appreciated this person fully trusted me. I'm like, I know this is gonna sound weird, but it was I feel like I can't breathe and I get hot. So I'm like, okay, it was a pillowcase over the head, running running in place. Like you've been kidding. Yeah, and I'm like, boy, this this would look very bad on video right now, but but it's very effective. You know, after a few sessions, it was like, eh, whatever. Yeah, I'm sweating. I get really used to it. So anyway.

SPEAKER_04 39:23

Head over to disorder.fm where there's uh you can send in did it anyways and uh questions and things. And um, if you want to be part of the community, you can find out there too. You don't have to, it's just a nice space with like-minded people. Um go check out also the disordered guide to health anxiety, uh, which is available on Amazon, both in Kindle and paperback format. Uh, written by Drew and I with different case studies and stuff. Um that we're really proud of. Um, yeah, anything else?

SPEAKER_02 39:53

We gotta start writing the next one. D PDR. Yeah, I think we should do a DPDR one next. I think so. That'll be the next one in the disordered library. So anyway, yeah. All right, we'll come back next week and we'll gab again about something.

SPEAKER_04 40:03

Sounds good.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

See you guys.