Anxiety And Releasing Tension (Episode 164)

SPEAKER_03 0:01

With people with panic disorder, OCD, if obsessed how they feel, obsessed body scanning, fixating on symptoms. How do you release tension if you're that person who's probably always tense?

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Having to come to grips with the idea that when people are stressed or there's pressure or there's a load on them in some way, including anxiety or fear, tension is gonna show up. Just the normal react human reaction to being under stress of any kind. So let's start there. It's normal to be tense.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Whenever there's an anomaly like muscle tension, I shouldn't be feeling this way. We're a community of fixators, so then we start to fixate on tension.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Your experience is generally governed by what you pay attention to. That is not a question anymore.

SPEAKER_03 0:39

You think you're working on tension by giving it attention and effort, but people in the disordered community, the more attention and effort you give something, the more it's going to be there. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 164, brought to you by the Lettuce Producers of Michigan, the USA. This episode is called How to Release Physical Tension. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders, having been through it myself on both sides of the c of the couch.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

And I'm joined by my esteemed co-host, Drew Linsolata, the other half of Disordered, coming to you from New York, where I am also a therapist that specializes in treating anxiety and anxiety disorders. And former sufferer of all this stuff, been through it. And out the other side, author, whatever, podcaster, advocate, you know the deal. So today we're going to talk about physical tension. Josh had to throw in the lettuce reference. If you're listening in the future, you don't even know what that is anymore because the news cycle passed us by.

SPEAKER_03 1:43

But you know, yeah, there's a there's a uh there's a a small minor epidemic of explosive diarrhea making its way through a belt of America.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Um I I mean it shouldn't be funny, but it kind of is. Um, and I just thought I'd uh make a make a tribute to that. I appreciate it. How do you release physical tension, Drew? It's a thing you often heard whether it's in therapy rooms or whether it's in the wellness sphere or whether it's wherever it's obviously release tension, release stuff. It's important that you release physical tension, but with people with panic disorder, OCD, if obsessed how they feel, obsessed body scanning, uh fixating on symptoms. How do you how do you release tension if you're that person who's probably always tense?

SPEAKER_02 2:27

I think the first thing is recognizing that tension is not tension doesn't is not an exception. Yeah, but what about when you have a lot of physical tension or anything like that? It's normal. People, we have I use this stuff all the time. We have phrases in our language in English that are just a knot in the stomach, you know, I was twisted up in a knot, you know, there's a knot in my we all understand the feelings of physical tension, and in the end, we wind up have to having to come to grips with the idea that when people are stressed or there's pressure or there's a load on them in some way, including anxiety or fear, tension is gonna show up, just the normal react human reaction to being under stress of any kind. So let's start there. It's normal to be tense, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:09

But then when it starts to like hurt and stuff, so I remember tension was a massive one for me. Yeah, jaw, shoulders, my traps were like concrete, and I don't say that as a flex, as in like I couldn't even shrug my shoulders, it was like so tense. Used to get knotty, um, and I could feel it, like it would affect my eating and stuff like that. And then often the the advice you hear when you're stressed and stuff is release that tension, which I do like, yeah, but that that kind of advice can conflate with someone who is obsessed with anxiety, they're obsessed with how they feel, they're constantly monitoring it, they feel scared all the time. And when we're scared, we've got cortisol and adrenaline on board, and then that obviously contributes to tension. And then you've got people with OCD, and how you know the percentage of people with physical somatic OCD where they're completely obsessed with the body symptoms, what's happening, the processes, the variables, and again, we're often, you know, we want some relief from that tension, or we're told about it. It was something I used to do, particularly when I had my bout of somatic OCD, I would obsess about my jaw tension. My jaw was so tight, but then I would obsess about what if I can just relax my jaw, that'll things be better. Honestly, the devices I had, stuff like that. I used to do jaw exercises because you go on YouTube and there's loads, there's loads of relaxing things. Do this, do that. Three months later, I've still got a tight jaw. Three months later, my shoulders, despite having massages, which I love, and all that, I'm still tense. Uh okay, how am I to truly let go of tension and release tension? It's not fighting the initial flames, it's looking at what is causing it to begin with.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Yeah, I I think that's why I kind of led with what I led with. Like, it's a realization that, like, yeah, this isn't this is what happens when we're upset for sure. Uh, one of our people in our studio studio audience said that like it's been anxiety provoking the situation she's in. I've been tense with headaches for months. It has me scared. It's hard to believe it's just tension and anxiety. So that's one of the reasons why we get freaked out over physical tension. People who interpret the physical signs of anxiety as a problem, like a medical problem. No, this can't this can't be. This jaw pain has to be that's a sign of a heart attack, right? Or like the pain for me, my chest was like somebody had like uh a clamp on it all the time. Yeah, you know, and that that would had me convinced that like that tension must mean that there's something cardiac going on and that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

So yeah, it's a bit an obvious and when whenever there's an anomaly like muscle tension, I shouldn't be feeling this way. Uh we're a community of fixators, uh so then we start to fixate on tension, but uh every symptom of anxiety when fixated on becomes self-perpetuating. Like, you know, let's play let's play a quick game, Drew. Name a symptom that gets worse the more you fixate on it.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

Uh tinnitus tiny tinnitus 100% gets worse when I listen to it. Heart palpitations, yeah, air hunger, headache, uh, jelly legs, every all of them. We could just keep going.

SPEAKER_03 6:17

Skip beats, actually. You know, yeah, those anxiety. I'll keep fixating on it. Anymore.

SPEAKER_02 6:26

Um, I mean, all of them. I I mean I wouldn't even I wouldn't exclude any anxiety symptom that doesn't get worse when you just stare at it and and try to clamp down and control it and evaluate it. All of them. I mean, I used to get muscle twitches when I was anxious. I was a just a ball of twitch all the time. And then it just stopped. So, like that was one of those things. Yeah, heart rate for sure, you know, in the studio audience. Yes, racing heart or pounding heart.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and someone in the studio audience just said, where attention goes, energy flows.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, when you you look at that like subjective, what makes our subjective experience, what you pay attention to is what you get. That is your experience is generally governed by what you pay attention to. That is not a question anymore.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

But that's why there is some semblance of truth to the bonkers manifestation crowd. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to call you bonkers. I get it, I meant to call you on the stage, yeah. And actually, no, it's about where your attention goes. So if you have your attention on the goal, you're more likely to get it. Not because you're magicking it from thin air, it's because you know that's where the attention resources and when your working memory goes towards to get to that goal. Now, if you apply that attention to I've got muscle twitches, which is something I did for years, yeah, not help with my father passing away from MND. Okay. And I was like, oh, and I'm staring at my muscle twitches, I'm getting more muscle twitches, you know, all these self-perpetuating symptoms. The reason why I say this is that tension is the biggest one. You think you're working on tension, which you're told constantly to release by giving it attention and effort. But people in the disordered community, OCD and anxiety, the more attention and effort you give something, the more it's gonna be there. And honestly, I've had it all acupuncture, I've heard it all acupuncture. Uh, if anyone's in the audience now, you can have your suggestions, acupuncture, uh, TMJ exercises, meditating, but then compulsively checking to see if the meditation has relaxed me. Yeah, and then it didn't, so it's worse, and then ruminating because I'm like, well, this is never gonna go away. I'm always tense. Is this tension then making my veins more carotid and and and thicker? And is it hurting me? And again, it's just these branches of the attention that's going towards how you feel. And so it's a bit of a trick question or trick title. How do you release tension? A lot of it is a well stop doing things, and that's the step.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

That's why it's always the um, you know, when when we talk about this sort of stuff and you get pushback even from other therapists who don't specialize in anxiety disorders, and we say things like, no, well, well, we don't teach regulation strategies, we don't teach grounding, we don't teach any of those things. Like, that's not part of our therapy. Well, that's crazy. Well, why not? Well, because when you teach somebody a technique for changing how their body is working, then we create that checking state that I talk about all the time. And then then it's a loss. It's an instantly a loss. Because if I do a thing to try to make the tension go away, then I'm instantly checking to see if the thing is working to make the tension go away because I need the tension to go away, and then I have more tension or at least can continuous tension. So we gotta the rule number one first step is I am tense, and that is what happens when I am afraid or anxious or upset. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

And nothing or I fuel it. Yep. You know, there we go. That's a lot like where my attention goes, the energy flows. Yeah, but I want less energy in there, it's got too much. Yeah, uh, I like that. Should we hear? Have we got any did it anyway? So I've got a couple of written ones that I really enjoyed, or and you found some audios.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Yeah, we got some audio. So how about we play one of those to get cooking? Okay, let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Hey, Drew and Josh, my name is Chase. Uh, I'm in the United States, border. You can use my name. Uh, I just have a little did it anyway that I wanted to share with everybody. Um, I suffer with health anxiety. I've slept for about five years, and uh today I had something um that was going on and I wanted it checked out. I guess wanted to get a little checkup, check it out, and uh the whole morning, the whole afternoon, and the whole evening I was freaking out, panicking, anticipatory, anticipatory uh anxiety of you know, what if I stay in the hospital, what if they gotta keep me for a few days, or take all these kind of tests, or find something horribly wrong with me, and everything like that. You know how it goes into the game. And I go there, they check it out, everything is fine, simple prescription, simply fixed, and uh yeah, I'm still legitery because uh, you know, heart rate was going and orders all and all that good stuff was going on, but um I did it, and I'm back. I'm uh almost home at the moment, but uh I just wanted to share that data anyways, and that I agree uh on your previous episodes where normally the anticipation of the anxiety of doing something is worse than actually being there and doing it. So um thank you for all you guys do. You guys are amazing, you guys are hilarious. Uh I'm rooting for your soccer team, Josh. Hope they win it all. And uh have a good day.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Oh yeah. Well done, Chase. I love hearing the applause again, by the way, Drew. The sounds like I can now hear it again.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

It's like you're back in the room, you know? Yeah, you remember the team now.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

Love it. Uh yeah. Well done, Chase. Uh what did what was your favorite thing about that?

SPEAKER_02 12:00

I I think the fact that he could acknowledge like afterwards, well, I'm still a little jittery because I had all the cortisol and adrenaline, and like that's normal. I'm okay. I'm gonna be okay with the part of me that's still still feeling not feeling it perfectly, but like I'm gonna recognize that the anticipation told me all kinds of crazy stories, and I didn't get caught up in it. I did it anyway, and it turned out that that was wrong. It it predicts a disaster that isn't there.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

Yeah, well done, Marlon. You should be very proud of yourself. Yep, um, release some tension. Okay, talking about what you we can do. So we've spoken about what we the the do-nots, yep. Usually, uh, but then also what can we do? Here's what I do. Yeah, and there's some people in the audience saying, Oh, I'll go for massages, it doesn't work, etc. Yeah. I love massaging, stretching, yoga, meditation on just relaxing. Sometimes the most relaxing thing for me to do is play my Pokemon game on Nintendo. Yes, I am 37, bite me, and uh and it relaxes me. And um, I've noticed that when I get involved in that, not playing high tension games, because sometimes I'll play Resident Evil. I'm like, yeah, that funnily enough doesn't help tension. Um, but um playing these things, and that's helpful as well. And I do these things, but I'm not doing it as a technique, I'm doing it with the belief that if I switch off from the cognitive attentional syndrome of scanning and forcing relaxation, I am have a high probability that I am going to relax. Yeah, you know, and the more I do that and put that into my routine, the better it is. And so yeah, I go, I'm not going for a massage to completely as soon as I'm halfway through massage, checking if tension's gone, or afterwards checking, scanning, because then it becomes immediate, it becomes urgent, and then you I'm gonna tense up again, I'm gonna brace. Yeah, but I'm gonna after a massage, I kind of allow it because I don't compulsively scan anymore to measure the tension levels, I can just feel it. Yeah, you know, that's a great strategy. Yeah, yeah, and that's a different that's how you release tension. But for people in this community, it's difficult as well because then they compare themselves to the typical person in the world. Oh, I went to meditation and I so tranquil. Right. And for some people here, they're like, I went in there and now I feel worse.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Yeah, yeah, it's kind of weird, isn't it? Uh, which is then it's parad that's paradoxical outcome. And then, oh my god, something must really be wrong with me because everybody's all like chilled out and I'm still like this. I I think when you decide to engage with Pokemon, no comment, no judgment, love you anyway.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

But like I can hear the judgment in your heart.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

You can hear it, right? You can just hear it. That's not that's not vocal cry. That's judgment. Yeah. So I think the the strategy is really I might argue that it's not even a tension release. It's a I'm gonna stop doing the thing that makes the tension to begin with, which is I'm not gonna just stare at how I feel. I'm not gonna just interact with my thoughts and my emotions and my senses. I'm gonna play a video game. So I'm gonna move my attention over to this. And sure enough, the tension tends to take care of itself. Now, not instantly, because that those are long-standing habits, right? And it's really difficult. But in the end, what really helped my tension was just getting better at not adding to it. It wasn't about taking it away. Right? How about I stop adding to it? Because uh, in a way, I have to I have to get rid of this tension, is like stomping on the accelerator in your car and then going directly to the mechanic and saying, This car goes too fast. Yeah, I know, but you're stomping on the gas, like you're hitting the gas. Yeah, but it yeah, but it goes too fast.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

You've never had a vehicle that's done that.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

I mean, we have get off the road, grabs that you stomp on it. I don't know. But uh, I'm a fan of that. But you know, so it's really weird. But that's fine. If you want to go fast, go fast. Nothing wrong with that. But imagine stomping on the gas pedal, finding that the car is accelerating, and then declaring we have to find a way to make the car slower. Yeah, yeah. No, no, how could you have both of those things? That's like a, in a way, it's almost like my nervous system regulation rant. Like, oh, okay, but if you're going to insist that the thoughts you have, the fears you have, the anxieties you have, the symptoms you have, the emotions you have are intolerable, cannot be handled, and are killing you, then it's really hard to say, okay, yeah, and how do I release the tension? Because you're legitimately making tension all the time, then. No, and it's not accusatory, it's just the way it works, right?

SPEAKER_03 16:22

And you're adding pressure to get rid of something, whereas relaxing tension is the removal of pressure.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

You know, yeah. Someone in the studio audience said, you know, I was working out and my PT told me tension is due to imbalances. Now, if you give that to someone who's obsessive and compulsive, yeah, their brain interprets that as that's a problem. Now I must fix and measure to see how much I have fixed that. Yep. Uh, and they've said actually, now I can't help but scanning to see if it's working in air quotes. Yeah, so now you've added pressure and and no, so the tension is not going to go away. Uh, and that's why PTs are not trained in the complexities of anxiety disorders. Actually, maybe there are some out there. It'd be amazing if I could find a PT who knew about anxiety disorders. That would be that would be so cool. I also just wanted to bring attention to the fact that the amount of unhinged members of uh the disordered community app. Uh, here's some examples of how people switch off. I play Silent Hill Resident Evil to calm my nervous system. Um I I watch true crime documentaries of lullaby.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

I'm not sure what this says about me, but true crime documentaries are like a lullaby to me. Love it.

SPEAKER_03 17:29

Yeah, yeah. Uh uh, and someone's agreed, like, yeah, good old murder works wonders. If you'd like to join this unhinged community, you can do it, disorder.fm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Just, you know, maybe bring some protection. And we don't know. Uh I can't vouch for the safety here. But yeah, I always find that really funny because when I had my old Facebook group running, that was a very common one of the the admins from Norway, Ingvil, lovely. And she used to joke about that all the time. It was her favorite thing. She would just be binging like true the most gruesome true crime murder podcasts and documentaries, and that's what she loved. And it would it would take her mind off of how she felt. Weird, right? Um, you know, I I think that tension thing though that this person said, it physical tension can in fact be created. The PT isn't wrong. Like you can have a muscle imbalance, you could have an injury, you could have there can be physiological reasons for that. That is 100% true. So we're not trying to say, like, oh, well, that doesn't matter. I I won't hit the button, I promise. But it it does matter. But at the same time, we have to recognize that sometimes for an anxious person, it's very difficult to tell them apart right now. Like maybe I have tension because I do have a bit of an imbalance from one side to the other, whatever. But maybe you can't really address it at the moment because you're turning it into a compulsion and a and a fixation project. So let it go. Let it go for now. I mean, that could be tough unless you can't let it go, in which case you gotta work hard to keep those things running in parallel and don't let them squish together.

SPEAKER_03 18:54

Yeah. Yeah, no, that that makes that makes sense. Yeah. Um would you like it? Would you like a data anyway? Of course I would. I would take more than one if you have it. Would you like one from Estonia? Would you like one from America?

SPEAKER_02 19:09

Oh well, Estonia, surely. Uh, America is all around me. Estonia, I don't have. So let's have it.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

I'll read the America one out later because it may be laugh. Sounds good. Um here's one from Estonia. Hi, Josh and Drew. My name is Maris, and I'm from Estonia. Feel free to use my name. I've been listening to your podcast since the beginning of the year. I wanted to share a small did it. Anyway, there has been a horror movie that recently came out, and I've been wanting to watch it for quite some time, probably much like the community members, Susekos. But I told myself I will wait till it's available online to watch from home because horror movies can leave me with uneasy feelings, and in the cinema it can amplify it. I have had a great week and thought maybe I should just watch it in the cinema, but was worried it might trigger my anxiety. I thought about what non-anxious me would do. Oh, this is good already, and she would just go see the movie. So I did. I did feel uneasy watching the movie, and for a little while that uneasy feeling came came with me even after the movie. But I walked out from the cinema smiling because I did it. I went to see a horror movie, knowing it might trigger me, and I am so proud of myself. Thank you guys so much for what you are doing, and take care.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Oh, I love this. It's really great.

SPEAKER_03 20:25

Also, how in any way is that a small did it anyway? It's massive. I know.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

I went to the the theater and sat there a triggering movie. That's huge. Intentionally, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:36

Attitude shift, one of my favorite episodes of disordered. You have epitomized that. And you could have easily gone, I'm having a good week, but if I go and trigger myself, I'm having a bad week. No, yeah, anxiety desensitization is measured on your willingness to be with discomfort, not the absence of anxiety symptoms. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Well, yeah, for sure. Like, oh, that was scary, and it did. I am feeling uneasy, but that's okay. I can I can handle it I mean it's not okay, I don't like it, but like I can handle that. I don't have to turn that into a project or an emergency. Very good, very good.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

So love it. Do you know what did make me tense? Uh watching Argentina knock England out of the World Cup. Football doesn't exist anymore. No, it's dead do you know. In fact, it does. I think they call it soccer in Europe.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Oh, wow. You really hurt. I could tell. Yeah, yeah, I get it. Hey, it was a good run. That doesn't help you guys though. But I did enjoy, I'm not gonna lie. How did I release tension this morning? I did a little doom scrolling, but it really wasn't doom scrolling. I just watching the absolute unhinged uh British football commentators. Uh like I'm like, okay, it's not just us. It's not just us. When something happens in New York sports and and sports radio in New York is absolutely unhinged the next morning, I'm like, all right, it's just human nature. I mean, that's what we bought him in for. That's what's he's he's doing for that moment. They're just getting angry at the manager for all the substitutes and they're like, okay, human nature. Love it. We're all the same.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Well, that's a good example of what you do to release tension. Yeah. For me, it's a combination. I run a hot bath. I like a hot bath. Told you if anyone doesn't know, I first messaged Drew whilst in the bath. Um, which he's still I'm still he's receiving EMDR for again, it's what you're doing, your attention doing these things. I get in the bath because I can relax and I'm not compulsing, I'm not reflecting, and I'm listening to my audiobook, and my attention is free and flexible, and I'm relaxing. However, there was a time where I get in the bath and then and again I'd be compulsively checking and testing. Is my attention gone yet? Is the hot water relaxing my glutes? Is it working? Well, then no, you're just creating pressure. You're techniquing something again that needs to be left alone, trying to force a feeling, force a sensation. But but again, that's a paradox, isn't it? It's come it's an oxymoron and forcing relaxation does not work.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Yeah, I agree. I mean, there are there's nothing wrong with yoga stretching, you know, they're doing those exercises, there's literally nothing wrong with that. But you really got to go into those, those stretches, those, those yoga sessions, whatever, understanding that like I'm just going to do something good for me, but I cannot demand an outcome. This is a good thing, this is a safe thing to do. I will spend 30 minutes paying attention to the position of my body and time and space. That's all yoga really is, and my breath, and I'll stretch, and I'm gonna try and do something nice for me. And I might feel different or I might not. Either way, it's okay. And because in the end, then the exercise or the stretching or the technique you're using, the TMG exercise is the TMJ exercise, whatever. That's an exercise in can I put my attention on this movement? Okay. I don't know what it's gonna create or not create, but uh in the end, it's really hard to say I want to find a way to release this tension, but I also am not sure it's totally safe to let go of my monitoring, my bracing, my protecting, my it's I I can't just let go because it's I still have to watch this closely. You can't have both at the same time.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

Yeah, I have to have to measure it.

SPEAKER_02 24:06

Yeah, can't have both at the same time. It's really difficult.

SPEAKER_03 24:09

Uh how do you know it's working? Well, you check in a week, or you check a couple of days, or you check in the evening. Yeah, but anxiety, those uh anxiety disorders come with that U-word, urgency. No, I need to urgently check if it's working. No, no, no. Yeah, I knew this. Here's a personal story that I'll share for the world and put it in public. Sure. I uh I had uh a really strong bout of uh somatic OCD. I was obsessing with everything, like particularly relaxing, my jaw, stuff like that, blinking, abdominal pain, stretches, muscle twitching, all that. I would obsess. My Tuesdays look really boring, you know, just obsessing about fixing tensions that will get rid of all feelings I don't like. And then my grandma became really unwell and it was really stressful. And I went to spend traveling around, driving around, in the in the in the hospital, spending time with grandma, spending time with family, doing all these things, and that's a really stressful, upsetting time. But and this is the nature of anxiety disorders, my physical bodily attention was less because I wasn't fixated. Yeah, amazing how that works. So it doesn't wait. That's why I love this studying and being in this field. Yeah, I'm already obsessing, I'm already doing that, I'm trying to force relaxation. Grandma comes on well, really love it, really important, really scared, really. But my compulsions drop down to almost zero, yeah. And as a result, yeah, I'm stressed, I'm tense. But the original stuff like the jaw and stuff like that went away because I've stopped intervening and trying to force it, and that's when I'm like, God, anxiety disorders and OCD isn't annoying.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

It really is, it makes no sense. It's a really very paradoxical, backwards, counterintuitive. So, like, if I stop trying to fix it so much, then it tends to get better. How could that be? Yeah, but weirdly how it works, and in that situation, kind of unfortunate circumstance, of course, but you're engaged with something outside of the narrative in your head, and sure enough, your body tends to follow that then, like, oh, we're taking care of grandma now. So, okay, yeah, yeah, very different.

SPEAKER_03 26:20

Yeah, it's very different, honestly.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Very different. Anxious people will often say things like, you know, oh, I they assume that like if something really bad did happen, they they would never be able to handle it because they're anxious so often. No, no, it's you turned it the other way.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

That's right. Like your your attention is actually less. I had that as well. I've been through some very traumatic things in my life, but the disordered anxiety actually was less. Yeah, the worry was high. Yeah, but it was on conventional worries, yeah. Not on me and my the anticipatory anxiety. I was in a there's another anyway. Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

No, no, I was uh you know what? Let's let's uh well I'll a quick anecdote then if it helps. I was in a conversation yesterday with some, was it yesterday or the day before I can't remember, where the person who was saying that they it oddly, you know, they wear uh like a fitness watch. And oddly, the more they just let themselves feel terrible when they're out shopping or having coffee with a friend, the higher their HRV scores are. And the watch is telling them you're you're less stressed. And she was like, How how could that be? I'm like, Because it's not the initial stress, it's the part where you hang on like hot death through the whole coffee date or or shopping trip. That's the problem. And so she actually found that her tension was dropping when she let herself feel bad. How weird is that, yeah, right? Makes no sense, but it's true. Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

It's true though, and it and it goes it goes all over anxiety disorders and stuff. Yeah, you know, uh stressing about stress, someone said, Absolutely, yeah, yeah. Uh that's pretty much it in a nutshell. Um, here's the American Did it anyway that I that made me chuckle. Sure. Hi guys, I wanted to share a success story. I didn't climb the Himalayas like a previous sender in her, but I'm still happy about this. Over the last several weeks, my stress jug, or stress keg because Merica lol was overflowing. Work stress, a shoulder injury, finances, and turning 45 collectively put me in a sensitized state that really snuck off on me. A very trivial annoyance arose yesterday and sent me down the panic rumination inward-checking rabbit hole. I tried to do what non-anxious me would do and get out of the house and browse some shops. I ended up in a bookstore with the intention of buying three more books on ACT and CBT. I'm a compulsive resource gatherer, sadly. However, as I browsed the books, I realized that I already knew most of the principles they were teaching. I was simply buying these books as a form of reassurance. I put the books back and bought a giant greasy cheeseburger for lunch instead. As an aside, my anxiety began manifesting years ago as a metaphobia and agrophobia. So there's a certain irony there. Wow. So sorry if this was too long. You can shorten it as needed. You both do amazing work with Apogas and your books. Wish that this information had been available years ago. And more and more kind words that I can't bring myself to read because it makes me, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still working on compliments, but that's so good. Rather than compulsively resource gathering, they went and I ate a cheeseburger. That that gets applause.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

Yeah, 100%. I love that. A greasy cheeseburger instead of a book on act. Love it. Sorry, Stephen Haley. You lost to a cheeseburger. Well, that's so good. That is really great. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

They didn't share them, they didn't share the name, but well done. Yeah, or like try a different book.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

How about that? You want to find ways to release your tension, your physical tension. Instead of reading an anxiety book or listening to an anxiety podcast, try something different. Like listen to songs you haven't listened to in a long time, or try a history podcast, or I don't know, cooking. Like anything, a greasy cheeseburger is better than act, as it turns out.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

That's why you know me, and I bang on about my golden rules. Yeah, if you're making anxiety the most important thing in the room, don't expect it to go away. Yep. But buying a cheeseburger for someone who used to be in a metaphor, there's no way to make anxiety the least most important. Couldn't be least less important if you tried. Love it.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Yeah. I love the uh stress keg, by the way, because I loaded it, I put it in. You know it had to go? The Benny Hill theme, because we've only used it once. Anyway.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

Yeah, good. Very good.

SPEAKER_02 30:43

Absolutely. Let's do an audio because I have a good one too that I think it's gonna be it's good to hear, so let's hear it.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

My dream Josh, I'm Vanessa from Germany, and I just wanted to share it anyway. Um, my friend had a job interview today, and she asked me to meet her afterwards for a drink, um, mostly for supportive reasons, as she struggles herself. Um, one of my biggest issues uh is knowing what non-anxious me would be doing, as I hide myself in people-pleasing. Um, as I decided that uh it is a core value of mine and not people-pleasing to be there for my bestie. Um, my anxiety stepped in. I haven't been out for a drink in a couple of months, as uh gat, depression, and panic became my daily business. And Craig the Critic is just waiting to step in too. But I drove 45 minutes to Austria anyway. I even had to wait one hour in front of a crowded cafe, as her interview took much longer as planned. Thank you, just at this place for the DAP practice app, anxiety came, focus shifted, and I waited bravely at 30 degrees Celsius. Um, seeing my bestie and then feeling how happy she was that I even waited this long just to have a cope with her let me know that I made the right decision. Um now I'm quite exhausted, and instead of uh running to the gym and trying to exchange my body sensations with exercises, I decided that mindful, non-anxious me would just relax on the sofa, trying to be proud of myself and play a video game instead. So thank you both so much for your amazing and encouraging work and the books, the community app, just sharing your own experiences. Thank you so much. Bye bye.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Yeah, so there's a lot of wins in that one.

SPEAKER_03 32:52

Oh my gosh, absolutely good, but I'm not done yet.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Choose Billy Mays in there, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:58

Billy Mays all the way for it, and then the after bit as well. I'm more don't get me wrong, you did standing in 30 degrees in Austria, something I did by the way over the summer, yeah. Um, is not nice. Uh and despite all that, and then at the end, my favorite bit, don't get me wrong, that's really brave. But the afterwards of, oh, you know what? You're tired of some good. I mean, be kind. Actually, I'll just chill out and play video games, and uh, you know, I've earned this today. Oh, I love it. You know, just really, really well done. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

And I'm not gonna go, I'm tired, but I want to go to the gym to replace these anxious feelings with exercise. That was one of the best lines I've heard in the did anyway ever, because it's so in tune with like I would use the exercise to replace an unpleasant feeling with a different feeling because I have to do that. Nope. I can go lay in the sofa, rest. I might feel the things, but that's okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 33:52

Yeah, wow, love it. Really great. They're getting it, they're getting it. Yeah, they're 160 odd episodes and uh yeah, it's tough, you know.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

And sometimes you get it on Tuesday and then you feel like I don't got it on Wednesday. That's normal. It's okay. If you feel like you're slipping, that's normal. Everybody feels like they slip sometimes, it's okay. But uh, it was really great. It was really great. Um I can read one from our community because we always like to, you know, bring those in because there's a couple of short ones that are really good. Uh so when we go into the Did It Anyway forum, we have one that's dedicated to just that. And sometimes they don't feel like people they don't feel like it's a big deal, but it's a huge deal. So this person wrote, and we won't, if you put them in the app, we're we'll read them, we won't use your names, of course. I think I've had, this person says, I think I've had a bit of a realization this evening when I felt anxious and was about to Google to find relief and certainty. And I thought to myself, uh, Googling this is completely pointless. I cannot be asked feeling better now for for just for it to come back again later. I'd rather just feel anxious. Maybe not a did it anyway as such, but feeling grateful for this we thought I've had. Uh hello, that's a very big deal. Yeah, yeah. That's a not didn't do it anyway, right? So sometimes it's about not doing, but I love the realization there that she shared. You know what? It's just I'm gonna have to do it again later. So what's the difference? I'll just be just now. This is silly, it's no purpose.

SPEAKER_03 35:21

I love that. That's good. Nice little attitude shift. That's a bigger than that. They're always big. There's not necessarily yeah, I like that. It's a good dinner anyway. Yeah, yeah. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 35:29

Uh, what else we got on releasing tension? Anything?

SPEAKER_03 35:33

I think we've covered a lot of it. Someone suggested that the title of our next book should be Greasy Cheeseburger is better than act.

SPEAKER_02 35:41

I would buy that book. I don't know if I'd write it, but I would buy that book 100%.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

So yeah, no, uh, again, summary you're more likely to release tension when you stop forcing yourself to try to release tension. Yeah, your attention, your attention plays a huge role in it. And if your attention is locked into trying to release stuff, don't expect to for tension to release. Yep. Often goes when you're not feeding it with your attention and fueling it.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 36:08

And allowing yourself to switch off too, you know? Also, you don't be like me putting muscle tension as the core of everything. If I relax my muscles, I'll feel relaxed inside. No, no, it's okay. It's it's perfectly possible to feel relaxed and have tense muscles. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

You can't uh so you know, you can't make the tension the most important thing in the room, but really you have to really look. Am I still trying to manage everything I feel inside of me? If you're trying to manage how you feel, tension or otherwise, you're gonna make more tension. So work on that part first, then see about releasing the tension, see what happens. So, yep. Octung, baby.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

That's what you two sub amazing. Um if you would like to send in a voice anyway, you can do that at disordered.fm or drop us an email. Um, you can read the disordered guide to health anxiety, which is available on Amazon by Disordered Press. You can follow us on social media, you can subscribe to the newsletter, or you can join the disordered community if you want to some extra resources. Tons of resources in there, and you can go check it out and join the workshops and stuff should you wish to. Um, anything else, Drew?

SPEAKER_02 37:18

No, I think that's it. One day we'll actually maybe send a newsletter. Imagine that. Like we know I know. Join the newsletter, and then we never send one. So, but it's all good. We'll send one one day.

SPEAKER_03 37:28

Isn't that the best newsletter to sign up to?

SPEAKER_02 37:31

You're guaranteed to never get anything from us. Yeah, or the worst in the end. No, very good. Um, no, I think we're good. We'll be back next week. We'll do another one.

SPEAKER_03 37:40

All right. See ya. Catch you later. Yep.