Anxiety Recovery: Semantics and Choosing Words Wisely (Episode 123)

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Choose your next words carefully. And maybe your last best king.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 123 entitled Anxiety Recovery, Semantics, and the Power of the Words You Choose. I am Drew Linsolata, one of the co-hosts of Disordered. I am a therapist specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York, in the U.S., former sufferer of the very problems we talk about on Disordered, a three-time author on the topic, social media guy, dude with a collection of microphones that are way too expensive.

SPEAKER_05 0:55

And uh yeah, I'm here as always with Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in the world of anxiety disorders. I also write books on the subject, um, prance around on social media, and yeah, it's a privilege to be the co-host of this podcast. And yeah, a nice reference to the 2006 Zack Schneider movie 300, uh, within that very kind of famous scene, uh, which is inspiring today's episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Yeah, choose your words wisely. The Persian messenger, the messenger from Xerxes, should have chosen his words more wisely. He wouldn't have ended kicked in the pit.

SPEAKER_05 1:38

Yeah, it was kind of just he went in with a bit too much pizzazz, didn't he? There was there wasn't a lot of respect there.

SPEAKER_04 1:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:45

And he um he underestimated uh what was going on there. So yeah, if there's any uh advice, don't for anyone listening at home, do not walk into a Spartan village and insult the wife of the leading general.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

That is solid mental health advice, right there. You're only gonna get that on disorder, by the way, guys.

SPEAKER_05 2:06

That's alongside the custard advice, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 2:09

The baloney advice, the custard advice, don't insult, you know, Spartan.

SPEAKER_05 2:14

What do we mean by why is it important? Semantics, words. What what what inspired us to do this episode today, given something something quite common that we hear in from listeners and readers of the book and the community? How people describe their anxiety, why is that important?

SPEAKER_02 2:36

Well, I think it's really important because when we first of all, language is our primary way of communicating. That's what we do as human beings. That's fine. So, like it's invariable that when we are struggling, we're gonna want to talk about it and we're gonna want to talk about how we feel, we're gonna how we say say how we feel. And when you do that, often you're, you know, it's everybody needs somebody to talk to, right? So there's nothing wrong with that. There's literally nothing wrong with you know expressing how you feel or venting when you need to, or expressing your frustration. And the people around you that you choose to talk to about that hear that. But the person who hears it most is you. So I think the way we talk about this really does matter because we say all the time, like the first step toward, you know, improving the situation or recovery, or if we're talking about implementing acceptance or mindfulness or like willful tolerance, floating, all of the things that we talked about here. Changing the words or at least becoming more aware of the words that you say about this, I think is maybe one of the first things you could do to at least challenge the way you're talking about it. Right?

SPEAKER_05 3:42

Absolutely. Yeah. Do you do you know how we um always get in a fist fight about the phrase it's just anxiety? I think in this context, this is where it's is helpful.

SPEAKER_04 3:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 3:54

Because you're minimizing it. Whereas, don't get me wrong, I love people with you know a flourishing lexicon, and I love it when people embellish a tale and exaggerate stories. I do it all the time. Um, there's no such thing as walking to the shop for milk, you know. I went in and shot down a helicopter and catapulted through and stopped a bank heist, because that's more exciting. Um, but when it comes to describing our anxiety about what's going on, it's very important how you frame it and also what that teaches the brain and your belief system about the problem. So, one of the biggest kind of cognitive reframes that you hear, you know, we've said on this podcast and I say, is um, you know, did you have it's like the difference between am I having a soul-crushing, worst ever, debilitating panic attack that was unbearable, or were you experiencing an intense adrenaline rush? Yeah, this the set both the same thing, but one is framed in a way that isn't manageable and one is yeah, they're the same thing. There's a just an example of how you're describing what's going on, and I think it's very important. This isn't invalidating how horrible it is. We know we've been there. I've literally been in A E or ER if you're in America, you know, crying, thinking I'm a burden, thinking the anxiety I'm broken, intrusive thoughts, thinking I'm going crazy. I know I've been there, but part of recovery, particularly well, recovery, getting better, desensitizing, was saying, right, how good am I today with the intense feelings and the difficult symptoms and the unwanted thoughts, as opposed to I'm in this, you know, monsoon maelstrom of you know, and it's when you repeat something enough, I think you start to believe it internally as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Yeah, I I think that's so important if we repeat it enough. And you know, this is really interesting because I wasn't thinking about this until we started recording just now, but we could probably talk for hours and hours on this because I think it reflects so many of the different concepts that go into like the approach that we are advocating here or recovery, getting better, whatever you want to call it. You know, we had Russ Harris on, right? So Russ is a big act guy, and he talks about the act triflex, and the first step or the first point on that triangle is get present. And get present is an instruction to be mindful, and we're being mindful, what we're trying to do is describe accurately what's actually happening, what's happening in the present moment. And all we have is words to do that. So the words we choose are really important because you have to recognize when you're in that really anxious or triggered state, when you say, This is hell, it feels like, feels like is probably the number one phrase that I want to strike from the vocabulary of it. It's one of the most common, isn't it? Yeah, it feels like. But that tells you that the words you use are part of when you interpret your experience and make meaning of it. And that's where the error comes from that creates and drives the disordered state. This state is dangerous, it is going to lead to some horrible outcome. Thoughts about having a psychotic break do not equal a psychotic break. And when we keep saying it feels like I'm going to snap, it feels like it's horrible, it's unbearable, I'm this close. Your words are part of the inaccurate meaning making that's driving this. So we have to learn to change those words and be more like you said, what's happening right now? I'm having a lot of really scary thoughts. My heart is pounding, it feels hard to breathe, or you know, I feel pressure on my chest. I don't like this. Those are all accurate, and you validate your experience as being very difficult. I'm scared, is a good thing to say. But the other words lead us astray. Then we get into the this means there's a problem and I must get away from it.

SPEAKER_05 8:03

And then we're stuck. Yeah. I've had the monster of all panic attacks. Yeah. No, you had a panic attack. They're all the same, you know. Yes, they they appear differently. Sometimes the symptoms are present differently. Sometimes the thought appears to be scarier because it's new, but physiologically, you know, it's more likely that it was just the same occurrence. And don't get me wrong, it's it's this hell on earth. I am not invalidating your experience. But if you're someone who fears anxiety and misinterprets it, and you start to differentiate responses as special or different from usual, that's only going to fuel an avoidance mentality where, well, I can handle a panic attack there or I can handle an intrusive thought there. But what if I get the really big one that was different and special? Then that's when you start to oh, what is it you call it, where you can you you can manage things, but then there's certain things you'll just avoid because the you think your distress tolerance cannot go into that zone.

SPEAKER_02 9:09

Yeah, I call it like the red line or the no-fly zone. You establish you can establish a no-fly zone where we see it as okay, cool, I I want to do willful tolerance, but I I can only do it up to this level. And if I cross into the no-fly zone, then no. And your words will tell you where the no-fly zone starts. They usually are words like, but but what about when you have this symptom? Or what about when you fear this? Like I'll I'll tolerate everything else, but not that. So your words will tell you where where you've carved an exception out for acceptance. This is so hard because invalidation, we've we've used the words a lot, and sometimes I think this is where I get pushback when I talk about this, mainly in social media circles. It is not to say that it is not a very difficult experience. We both lived it, it a hundred percent is.

SPEAKER_05 9:56

Yeah, so horrible.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Oh, it's the worst. Like nobody wants it. That's okay to say I'm scared, I'm terrified, I hate this, I don't want this. There's nothing wrong with that. But if we set up camp there and that's where we live all the time, and those are the words we constantly use again and again and again, we're stuck. So it is really difficult, but I think that's what I said to open the episode, too. And you know, my first statement was this is the way that you first start to point, I think, in a different direction. I have to stop continually telling everyone that will listen, and myself, because I'm always hearing, how horrible this is all the time. That's maybe the first step. Or I have to start to describe this a little bit more objectively and notice my mind is making false predictions and meaning out of this that are keeping the problem alive. So, because guess what? Well, you're right, we may be fist fight over this a little bit, but it is just anxiety, and it's important to land on that. Yeah, yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_05 10:51

I I think it's okay to minimize it for yourself.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

Yeah. Oh, that's so opposite, too. Most people in mental health circles would be like, you don't minimize your feelings. No, no, not your feelings. We have to be objective about the experience.

SPEAKER_05 11:03

Yeah, it's not minimizing, yeah. It's about yeah, this is the thing, yeah. People misinterpret often misinterpret like you don't understand my suffering. I was like, no one understands your suffering, but people can relate. And what I'm saying is, I'm conveying a belief in you that you can get to a better place. Now we can park here in limbo and just keep talking about how bad this is, or we can start to frame a mentality of okay, let's see, let's look at it from uh the context of my tolerance skills. Let's let's say something I can change. Where can I look at the variables in my life and in this in this journey and be curious about that? And it all comes from a place of I say it's because you're capable of doing it. Um, but there's never any sense of invalidating how much this sucks. Um, have we got any examples of people who have gone into no-fly zones?

SPEAKER_02 12:05

We do. Let's play this one because this person used a word that I want to bring up, also. So let's hear it.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Hi Drew, hi Josh. This is Beth from Dayton, Ohio, and you can use my name. Um, I'm just calling with a did it anyway. Um, I have been kind of in a setback for, I don't know, a month or so. My anxiety starts talking to me. What I do is avoid. I just want to go in my little cocoon and avoid everyone and feel safe and not have to do any exposures and just, you know, because that's the easy way to do things. Um, I have an absolutely precious five-year-old granddaughter who means the world to me. And ever since she was six weeks old, we've done um Saturday night overnights with Nana. Uh, and unfortunately, during the setback, I cut that out too. But this last Saturday night, we did Nana sleep overnight. And I'm not gonna say it wasn't tough. Uh, that Craig the critic was knocking on my brain and talking to me, you know, saying, what if, what if, what if, what if, and you better take that child home and you know, just retreat. And um, but I didn't. I just ignored it. I um enjoyed my time with her and got involved in playing and doing crafts, and um, we had a great time. So thank you. Uh, thank you both for doing all you do.

SPEAKER_05 13:50

Very good. I mean that was really good, wasn't it? Yeah, it's so good. And uh a grandma's sleepover as well. I love that. Values driven, really brave, and I'm really, really happy that you um managed to enjoy an evening with your granddaughter, Gina.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

Mm-hmm. 100%. I I would definitely say on a personal level, that one maybe smile. Beth, if you were listening, I know how important that was. You know, there's some people that you start to recognize just because they're they're in the community for a while in the comment section or whatever. And I know this has been a struggle for her for a while, and I know how important it was to her. So this was great to hear.

SPEAKER_05 14:22

Yeah. Sorry, Beth. I called you Gina. And the only reason I called you Gina is because we have another did it anyway. Well that we can just uh segue on to if you would like. Yeah, let's do it. Let's hear it. Okay, here we go. Um, so this is from Gina. Hi, Drew and Josh. My name is Gina, and you can use my name. I've been waiting since last year to be able to send you my success story, and I'm so happy that I finally can. Last year I became re-sensitized to panic attacks and my anxiety that I had recovered from five years prior. I had a very stressful move in 2023, and at the time going through a very stressful time with my job. In June of 2024, I began having panic attacks and horrible anxiety, leading me to having to take a leave of absence from my job for six weeks. I spent all last summer reading each of your books, listening to your podcasts, and starting my exposures for agrophobia. I even joined a couple of your agrophobia roundtables. It was a year of pure hell, but I'm happy to report that a year later I've gone from not being able to walk down my own driveway to flying multiple times this year with more scheduled. I have my life back, and I can't thank you each enough for your commitment to this topic and for giving so much of us the tools we need. Also, shout out to Drew for one of your Instagram stories, congratulating a friend of yours on becoming a therapist. I saw that, look, looked her up, and happened to be in Florida. And like me, she's an absolute blessing and is currently working with me on my emetophobia. Your work is much appreciated.

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Yeah, I love that. I know who she's talking about. That's Anne. I love that. You're in good hands, Anne's good people. So love it. Um, good job, Gina. Well done.

SPEAKER_05 16:05

Yeah, well done. Really good. Um, back to semantics and words, like even at the compassion level. And we did talk about this a long time ago, but I'm gonna bring it up again. Even a basic one. I always get it's like well, I I I got up and forced myself out on Tuesday, pushed myself through that. And I'm like, it sounds like you got up and encouraged yourself to go out and tolerate horrible feelings, and it sounds like that you were resilient enough to get through that. Very simple words, same story, but a powerful, subtle difference. It's very important, and I personally find that as a therapist. Encourage yourself to do something tricky today, don't force. No one wants to be forced to do anything.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

That's interesting, and I've said this before, and it sometimes it gets misinterpreted. And I I say the same thing about being selfish. Like, anxious people are not selfish, and anxiety disorder is incredibly selfish, it always wants to be the most important thing in the room, right? You are not dramatic, anxious person listening to disorder today, but an anxiety disorder sure wants you to be. Like it will always like trick you into using the most dramatic, the most inflammatory, the most extreme, the most descriptive language when you talk about it. Because you're trying to figure out a thing that you cannot figure out. That is the meaning making and prediction engine in your head working over time to try to. What is this? Like, this makes no sense, this experience. So I'm gonna try and find as many words as I can to describe it. And those words tend to be inflammatory and and work against you. So what Josh is saying here, I love simplify your language. Because it's okay, it doesn't deserve that much description. Like we have to challenge that.

SPEAKER_05 17:52

It's almost like you can simplify it to it's just anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

I'm just gonna throw it out. Imagine that. It's true, it's true.

SPEAKER_04 17:59

Well, we're gonna do it, you know what, we're gonna do a whole episode on it's just anxiety, where you get to see us go to one toe on now, just fight, get get really personal, start attacking each other's families and and and vulnerabilities.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Just ignorance slut, like you know, we're gonna have to flat all the whole famous lines, it's gonna be great. But uh, you're right. In the end, like we we learn that we do things like, well, hang on a second here. I'm giving this too much, like we talk about with attention. Attention and language are related in this context, I think.

SPEAKER_04 18:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Okay, can I give 51% of my attention to something else, even though that feels wrong? Like this feels like it should have all of my attention. Well, this feels like it should have a lot of words attached to it, but what if I take the risk of giving it less words? I'm being defiant, I'm shrugging my shoulders at it. I have to learn to do that.

SPEAKER_05 18:46

Yeah, you're so right with that. I had a bit of an anxious episode the other day, it lasted for about 30 minutes. And then I was like, you know, we bang on about this all the time. And I was like, God, I'm doing well to give 51% of my attention here, and I know that's all that's needed. But I was a bit like, oh yeah, I imagine this to be really tricky if you're just new to being sensitized. You wouldn't have a clue in the world. Yeah, if you're just new to an anxiety disorder and you suddenly bang, and with all everything you've learned, all your attention goes inwards. What's this feeling? What does it mean? And and it was quite a nice feeling to be able to just stand there and feel like I'm going insane, but just knowing, like, if I just keep 51% of my attention here, this will pass quicker. It will pass anyway, but it passes quicker. Um, and it just made sense. My stress, I just moved apartments, I was doing this, I got deadlines and all this stuff, and and I knew this was coming, and then so I didn't even see it as a bad thing. It was just like, this is a warning, Josh. You've nice, you must rest, you know, and um, but yeah, I when you mentioned that 51% attention thing, I was like, Yeah, I'm still doing it now sometimes, if I have to.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Yeah, and I think attention, the language that we use, the words that we use indicate where our attention is. Like, oh, if I spend five minutes describing everything I feel and what I think it means, that is all of my attention. Like, so hang on a second here. I you know, one of the things I try and teach people to do is delay that, right? So that's one of the things that we learn a little bit of an exposure. So if you're in a triggered moment and all you want to do by default, you know that you call your partner or you turn to them or who somebody that you trust or your safe person, and you want to instantly tell them how you're feeling. I used to do that compulsively. I would do it immediately because it was a way to try to escape it or feel like I was going to be saved or be okay. You sound boring, man. I'm not gonna lie. It was incredibly boring. Like, I can't imagine how boring it must have been to hang around with me back in those days because that's all I ever talked about. It's a hundred percent true. And I had to start to teach myself, like, wait a minute, what if I don't say this? Which again, I know it sounds opposite. If you if this is the first episode of disorder you've ever listened to, because you're new to this, you're thinking, like, these guys are therapists, they're telling me to not say how I feel, to give it less attention. It's exactly the opposite. I promise, go back and listen to the first 122 episodes, you'll get it why we're saying this. But I had to say, well, what if I don't tell anybody how I feel right now? And I've had people say, What is I'm supposed to just shut up and never say how I feel. No, no, no, you can always say how I'm frustrated, I'm sad, I'm angry. Yeah, it's okay, you got to express your emotions. I feel like I'm having a stroke for the 5,000th time in six months. That we don't have to say. That's not helping at all.

SPEAKER_05 21:30

So it's the line between what's compulsive commentary and um a detached awareness. So, like, how are you feeling? I'm like, I'm feeling a bit frustrated that this adrenaline rush hasn't passed yet.

unknown 21:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:46

Because you have that detached awareness. Yeah. Whereas you know, you know, what what it feels like I'm I'm dying again for the 50th time. It feels like this, it feels like this, and it becomes a constant. Commentary of your experiences, that's 100% of your attention on what the amygdala is trying to say is the danger, you know, the anxiety folding in and on itself. Um, and again, it to go with it with the episode topic, the semantics of even how you describe it, it's completely okay. You know, like when I was with my friend, he's like, How are you? I was like, just having a bit of a panic rush. Not surprised. And he's like, You're right. Do you need to do anything? No, just carry on, you know, just keep talking, you know, and I'll just concentrate on what non-anxious me would do. And yeah, he he asked me like half an hour later, you how you feel now? I was like, Oh, yeah, I'm fine. Didn't even notice it passing. Yeah, yeah, didn't even notice it passing. But there it's like it's okay to, yeah, like Drew said, to convey how you feel. Just make sure it's not compulsive, yeah, like compulsive vocalizing of process. Yeah, otherwise you start to give it all your attention. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Yeah, that's uh and I may you know people probably argue, was that really compulsion? I don't know. I felt like I had no choice. I had to say what was going on, and so now they get that nuanced thing of like, am I saying what's going on or am I saying what I am afraid might be going on, which is really what I was doing, you know, and so learning to like, well, what if I don't say that? But the I call them, I'm probably wrong. I'm probably misapplying that, but like I always describe them as the meta emotions because in the moment you're feeling fear, or I'm feeling uncertainty, or I'm feeling doubt. Like those are the emotions that are driving the state. The meta emotions are the emotions about the emotions. I am frustrated that this keeps happening to me. I'm angry that this is happening to me. I don't like this. By all means, it's okay to say, yeah, I'm really uncomfortable right now and I don't like this. Because that's a genuine feeling that it's okay to, you know, but you always got to be careful about like, but it's okay. I'll I'm working on handling this. So I think it's a it's a thing. It you talked about changing the way other people talk about it. So when you're a friend, of course, your friend's gonna say, Oh, are you okay? Yeah, and you're like, No, no, I'm fine, don't make anything of this. That's a big shift in semantics, too. It's just what you hear other people doing. I tell my people all the time, like, stop asking me how I feel, stop asking me if I'm all right. When you see my leg bouncing and I'm jittering, and I'm you can see that I'm in distress, don't ask me if I'm okay.

SPEAKER_05 24:20

No, it's ask you if you're okay when they can clearly see that you're not in that cycle. Right because remember, because because obviously, like we're more than an anxiety disorder, we have a spectrum of many other things in life. But if you can see if if Drew's having like a you know, and and this is the same pattern and cycle, yeah, we don't do that, but it is okay to be like, how are you feeling? Yeah, not compulsive commentary, but like, how you feel? You know, I'm a bit frustrated about having an anxiety disorder, and it's it's starting to really piss me off. Yeah, okay. That sucks.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Or maybe you could teach your people like if you notice that I'm I'm showing signs of distress, and the people close to you will notice it's fine, they know you. Like, one way that you might shift some of the language around it that they use is like just remind me that you know, you notice that I'm looking like I'm very uncomfortable. Remind me that that's okay. Um getting better means learning how to handle this. You know, I just cheer for me a little bit. I know.

SPEAKER_05 25:18

Yeah, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Yeah, compare I'm here with you, I'll hang out with you, but like you can do this. We don't have to, you know. But when your anxiety screams, when somebody opens the door, you're you're anxious. How are you feeling? What's going on? It's like getting it's like it's got invited to the gala, like the ball. You know, it can't wait, it's gonna make it cheer. Yes, let's talk about me, says your anxiety in the feet.

SPEAKER_05 25:39

Yeah, just take yeah, it's taking the mic, hasn't it? 100% taking the mic and everyone's turn to what to look at it, and it's and it becomes a even more of a thing, particularly when other people are there.

SPEAKER_04 25:49

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 25:49

Um, I'm just thinking more about like uh about semantics and stuff. Um, and again, it's really important what words you use when you are framing what the goal is. Um, so when you do like something like sorry, my watch is buzzing. Oh god, I I have a watch notification. Drew has been notification free for almost two episodes, and that my watch went then. Sorry. Um, so can we press the regulators button? Regulators, and the reason why I've asked for that is because the words you're using. So, why am I going to the barbecue to have intrusive thoughts? You know, well, well, I need to go to the barbecue to intruse thoughts, to learn to regulate myself, to learn to do these things, to be calm, to see how quickly I can get calm again. And it's like those words are so powerful that you're using there, you know, and you end up inwards. And you know how we feel about the regulator stuff. No, that's why I said for that. But again, the words that frame the goal, you know, and you hear it now. I'm starting to hear it in in in in everyday after hear therapists, some therapists say it, you know, you know, we must learn how to regulate ourselves. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

No, I agree with you on that. You beat me to the punch because I was going to segue into like the semantics of like recovery words or improvement words or therapy words. Regulate is one of them. Calm is a word I would be careful of. Like I'm looking for calm. Another one, I know this is another hot button one that I get hate on, but I would be careful about using the word healing all the time because it indicates that something is broken and you're trying to fix something. How about learning? And then in our first did it anyway that Beth sent in, she used a couple of she used the word ignore. I hate when people say that too. Oh, it's just to ignore it. No, no, you couldn't ignore it if we paid you, but you can acknowledge what you're feeling and still try to bring something else into the fold with it.

SPEAKER_05 28:02

So not ignoring or not to ignore it. You can pretend to ignore it, like if you've bumped into your ex. Bam.

SPEAKER_02 28:08

That's yeah, that's really good. I could pretend to ignore it.

SPEAKER_05 28:11

I'm show I'm showing it that I don't care.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

That's excellent. I'm gonna use that. Yeah, you can't ignore it, you can only pretend to ignore it.

SPEAKER_04 28:17

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I I actually think that's good. Yeah, pretend to ignore your anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Yeah, no, that's actually very good. Yeah, another phrase that people I think we have to be careful about using is stop saying, oh, so I have to just not care. I have to not care how I feel. No, every human being cares how they feel. I care how I feel, like it's important to me. So it's not that you don't care how you feel. I do care about this. I'd rather not feel this way, but I can't demand to feel a certain way. There's a difference. So I always have a problem too with the just ignore it and oh, just just don't care. You're telling me I just don't care about this. No, you do care about it. Just sit with it. Oh, that's another one. Sit with it. I I hate sit with it at this point.

SPEAKER_05 28:59

When people ask me that, you know, like so. I'll go on or bang on about willful tolerance and the principles of this and third wave CBT and blah blah blah. And then I often get asked by an interviewer. So it's basically just you're saying just sit with it. And I'm like, no, no, but not all the time. So you do what non-anxious you would be doing. So if non-anxious you actually at that time of day would be sat down watching the wire season four, and suddenly you became anxious, you know, um then yes, in that occasion, sit with it. Because you would have been sat with it. But if you're out doing the garden, you know, and you're planting fruit and whatnot, mowing the lawn, and then suddenly you get anxious. How does how do the words sit with it apply that? Do you then go and sit down and sit with it? No, you stop doing what non-anxious you is doing to then give the anxiety importance and often attention. So we don't sit with it, it only applies if non-anxious you was already sitting.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

True. We should, you know what the new phrase should be? Be with it. Because be is in multiple contexts. You could be sitting, you could be trying to go to sleep, you could be on the train, you could be at work, you could be having dinner with friends. I can be with this, be with the experience, don't sit with it. I used to be with it, but then they changed what it was.

SPEAKER_05 30:39

It'll happen to you. That's uh Grandpa Simpson, is it? Oh, what a great stuff that was.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

Yeah, I love grandpa Simpson. Be with it. Yeah, be with it instead of sit with it. Sit with it has a aesthetic connotation, it has a come to a rest and a connotation. Like when you're going to sleep, that that whole like people will say all the time, like, well, the hardest thing is at night when all I'm just trying to go to sleep. There's really nothing else to do. I am inactive. Okay, well, in that moment, you kind of are actually sitting with it, but it also doesn't necessarily it means look at it to acknowledge what it is objectively. Don't you know trying to pretend it's not happening, but you don't have to sit and look at it for five minutes.

SPEAKER_05 31:21

That's not stopping what you were doing, rewiring your brain to stop and give it all that attention. Um as as you're talking, this this pretend like it's an X, pretend you're ignoring an X, is such a good analogy. Yeah, and I'm thinking back like just think about it, like you're there, and you know you're at an X or something's at a function, and you are anxious, and you can't help but not notice them. But suddenly you're making an extra effort to probably do what you would have done, but to your best ability. So you're suddenly engaging with people, you're suddenly doing this, you're suddenly your shoulders are back, your posture's better, you're really engaging. And yes, you can't remove the fact that the ex is in the room, but you're trying because the goal is there is to show, you know, I'm gonna show you, I'm ignoring you, and I'm fine. Absolutely do that when anxiety kicks off in the supermarket, and honestly, it will work.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

I love that. Yeah, I used to say it was like the the annoying guy at the bar or the pub who keeps like wanting to ask for your number or something, and you're not interested. Well, you could turn, I would say you could turn your back on that person, but they might still be a drunk pain in the ass. You can't not hear the guy, you can't not know he's there, but you can decide to not interact with him. But I think the ex is better because when I ask my ex, I want to not only like okay, I'm gonna have to just deal with this, I can't make them go away. Yeah, but there might be something in me that says show your ex how well you're doing. That's exactly right. I'm gonna show you that you blew it. You should have never.

SPEAKER_05 32:56

I'm gonna yeah, I'm gonna show you you blew. I love that, and actually, yeah, and and that could apply to any situation, like okay, I'm at a job interview, but I'm getting intrusive thoughts. Well, then show them. No, I'll show you I'm actually great at all these things, and you're not getting rid of it, you're just showing it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Oh, yeah. It applies in multiple situations, too. I think if your ex thought you weren't good enough, well, I'm gonna show you you made a mistake. I I'm all that in a bag of chips. Look at me. If your ex was abusive, you were wrong. You should have never treated me this way. I'm gonna show you that you should have never treated me this way.

SPEAKER_05 33:33

Your anxiety disorder would be talk about yeah, your anxiety disorder is ignoring your ex. Uh we can go with it but it's an ex that you cared about and still care about.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Yeah, no, it doesn't matter. I love that I can't ignore the fact that this person is there. I can't make them go away. I can't uninvite them to this event or whatever it is. So this is really uncomfortable, but I'm gonna get through it. In fact, I'm gonna I'm gonna send a message here. I'm gonna send a message to my ex by what I do, and you do that with your body language, you do that by what you do in the party.

SPEAKER_05 34:05

I I absolutely love this, it's really gutter trash as well, and I love it. You know, I'm sure Professor Adrian Wells has got like a five-hyphen word that he's described through metacognitive therapy, but I'm all for the trash. Your anxiety disorder is the X that you're pretending to ignore.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

We could this is so pop psychology, we might be onto something. This gets this stuff gets traction.

SPEAKER_05 34:31

Yeah, don't make sure we trademark it though before Mel Robbins writes a book on it.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Yeah, this is book two in the disordered library. Here it is. Ignore your ex like baby steps in the what about Bob? It's like the new therapy thing.

SPEAKER_05 34:47

Let's let's hear another did it anyway from the community because uh this was we're getting too excited. We really are. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Hi, Josh and Drew. Uh this is Caitlin from upstate New York. You can use my name. Um, I just wanted to submit a did it anyway, um, and kind of a doing it anyway. I um have had anxiety for most of my life and PTSD or the remnants thereof um for quite some time. Um, and I have a lot of social anxiety. And I recently um have been listening to the podcast and reading some of your books and discovered that I was still kind of white-knuckling through a lot of things that I was doing. Um and recently my partner and I went to an awesome concert. We went to see Sublime, and it was wonderful. I want to make sure I mention the band. Um, had a great time. I danced, I just had a blast. Um, and it was because I was accepting and not white knuckling. And I'm so grateful I found your podcast and your books, both of you, Drew and Josh. Um, so thankful and so proud. And uh doing it anyway is leaving this voicemail because normally I would want to listen to it over and over and edit, and I'm not going to. So did it anyway, doing it anyway. Very proud and so grateful for you guys. Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 36:26

That may have been our first did it anyway with a plot twist. Who saw that coming at the end? I love that. It wasn't even the concert that was a did it anyway. It was like, I'm just gonna record this and hit the send button.

SPEAKER_05 36:35

Yeah, the concert was fine. It was just we we assumed what the fear was, but no, actually, yeah, I'm gonna send something unfiltered, unedited. And that goes back to like the kind of phone responsey thing, isn't it? Things must be perfect. I don't want people to judge me, blah, blah, blah. Nah, you just sent it and we loved hearing it.

SPEAKER_02 36:56

Love that. Love the plot twist at the end. Go, Caitlin. Good job. Sublime, thank you for telling us who you went to see. That's how you know it's a true listener. We've said that before. Like, if you go to a concert, tell us who you saw.

SPEAKER_05 37:05

It could have been ABBA, for all we know, could have been you know that has been happening recently, though, because we had someone watching L C D Sound System the other day. And so I think they we have spoken and and the we've requested, and the listeners have um you guys have responded.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

We appreciate you very good. So, what else do we have to say about this? Anything in particular? We have any questions or anything we want to go over? Or uh have we got time? Yeah, we got maybe five minutes.

SPEAKER_05 37:30

Okay, cool. Um, so we had multiple questions on the topic of um anxiety and tinnitus. Um so I'll just read a couple out. Um, hi guys, my name's Adam. You're welcome to use my name. I've dealt with OCD and panic disorder, and I went cold turkey off some medication. Um, what happened was um I've developed ears ringing almost constantly and happens in super silent rooms. Um, you know, is there anything? Um, have you experienced it? Any advice how to manage it? And also from someone else, uh they've said been suffering from anxiety relating to tinnitus. Um, you know, and I thought I'd answer that. So yeah, it's for the people that have written about tinnitus, I can answer that for you. As someone who has permanent tinnitus, I will hear ringing in my ears until the day I die. In fact, the one advantage of death is that I will not hear those ringing again. And I would be say that you step one, you have an obsessive compulsive condition, OCD, anxiety. In some way, there'll be a way uh an element of fixating and compulsions. I did this and I didn't sleep for months because I was worried, and then it's like a twofold situation. The more you worry about it, the more stressed you are, and then you know, your jaws tight, and so it closes around on your eardrums, and everything is amplified and whatnot. And um I was really worried about it. Um now I can honestly say that I forgot about my tinnitus until I read that question. And sometimes I can hear my tinnitus when I'm stressed, so it's good. But the reason why is that I give it as little attention as possible and I don't compulsively check. Now, don't get me wrong, if you do have tinnitus, get it checked out medically. But in general, it's like the problem isn't the tinnitus. I'm not saying it's uncomfortable and doesn't sound, it sounds like crap. I have three different tones in my ear. But the brain can wire itself to make it background noise, and then you can it just doesn't even acknowledge it. It's like sitting in your kitchen and hearing the fridge. Can you remember hearing that? No, because the brain tunes it out. So if you do have tenants and stuff like that, good CBT work with that is really essential, and you can tune it out, and it's it's better the less you you you get with it. But knowing the brain can literally wire itself to make that sound, not it's it's not even quieter. Like if I sat here and really thought about it, it's the same. It's just I've not I've rewired the amygdala to not think that that it's dangerous, and as a result, I don't care, it's there, and I don't, it doesn't even get in the way of anything. Uh, and interestingly, there's a stat, I think it only applies in the UK, I can't remember. 98% of people can habituate psychologically to even severe tennitus. Yeah, you know, if someone's launched a rocket launch next year, you know, 98% of people. Now, of course, you've got OCD, so you're like, well, why don't you find the 2%? But genuinely, 98%, uh, which is a remarkable statistic. Um, so yeah, that's my take on that.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

You got anything, Drew? I mean, I'll bang on about mindfulness because tinnitus is one of those areas that we use interventions like mindfulness-based cognitive therapy or mindfulness-based stress reduction. And it's right, it's not the tinnitus, although I have it in my left ear. I I can't hear it now. It's there, it's it's always there. Yeah, you just don't care. Don't can't hear it, but because uh it's it's what makes it worse and unbearable is somehow because in the West we have that fixing ethos of like I don't, I don't accept my reality. I should be able to fix this. So fix, fix, fix, resist, resist, resist. We find that people who have tinnitus when they learn to notice their resistance in various forms and drop it, that's when it's still there, but it tends to fade into the background, and people will say they're not haunted by it all the time anymore. So no change physiology from the f in the physiology, just their quality of life instantly improves. Almost yeah, crazy. It's like yeah, the brain can tune it.

SPEAKER_05 42:00

I look, I don't like the sound of traffic, but I live in the city center. Right. You know, now I can sit there and what hope and worry that the sound of traffic that I will hear 24-7 in my apartment. I can sit and worry and and observe and fixate, oh, there's another car, there's another lorry, there's another train, oh so annoying, and wind myself up. Now I can sit like in my apartment. I don't even hear the traffic, really. Like I can acknowledge it. Oh, it's there, but it doesn't bother me. It's the same with tennitus. The solution is not to get rid of the sound, the fixing thing. The solution is to teach the brain this sound doesn't matter, just like the traffic, just like the sound of the fridge.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

I would add one more thing to that, which is people will often ask us, how do I how do I accept that, or how do I get okay with this? It's not getting okay with the sound, it's getting okay with the fact that I can't do anything about the sound. So, as weird as it is, yes, for us, it's there's always that intermediate step that we always people always miss because it's not common sense. Like, oh, what I have to get okay with is the fact that this is my reality, I have to learn to live with it. That's when things tend to get better.

SPEAKER_05 43:10

So, yeah, but you know what's and the irony is the irony is like anxiety, like, right, I'll just gonna have to learn to live with syntenitus now. And once you do, you don't it's a paradox. Now I'm willing to be with tennis, and then I've not thought about tennis for months.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

But you're right, under stress for sure. That's when I'll hear it more. It becomes front and center, but like that's an indicator for me now. Like, oh, I am pushing myself really hard, clearly.

SPEAKER_05 43:33

Something's going on. So weird how your attention amplifies stuff as well. I remember spending months lying in bed, and it sounded like a foghorn in my ear. Because my attention had amplified it enormously, and the fight of like threat response, amygdala, blah blah blah. That's gonna make it sound louder. Because when you when your threat response kicks off, your hearing is even better because it You need to listen out very acutely for predators. Now, if you're if you think that you your tinnitus is the predator, it's gonna sound even louder when you're worried about it lying in bed going, has it gone yet? And all your all your ancient brains going is, is that another footstep from a bear that can kill us? And you're like, Oh my god. And it's a frustrating cycle to be in.

SPEAKER_02 44:22

We're listening for predators. You mean dinosaurs? That's that symptom is that's from when humans had to run from dinosaurs, right? Inside jokes, but you know, the thing that's weird is that once in a while, which is a lot of time talking about this, but that's all right. Sometimes when I can hear it, my mind will automatically make the thought like this is never gonna go away. And that's correct. And so for like a couple of seconds, I will get upset by that. Like, oh my god, this is the rest of my life. Yeah, but I know about that already, so uh I'm not gonna catch against that.

SPEAKER_05 44:51

Yeah, it's the same with um eye floaters and stuff, and maybe we should do an episode on this full of it, but like I have eye floaters, and I've had them there since well, since I don't know, it might have been it when I was a kid. Visual snow. So I just look around and it's just like it's just like a disco. And again, when when you're anxiously attuned to it, this all you can see, and I'm looking at them now. I'm like, oh my god, these will never go. But then naturally, the last few weeks, I've just my my brain's just filtered them out. It does it doesn't matter, you know. But yeah, with anxiety disorders, we stop, we stare, we're like, this is the problem now. We I must erase this. And yet, really interestingly, in the in the case of eye floaters or tinnitus, you've usually had it even before your anxiety disorder. You just didn't care.

SPEAKER_02 45:41

Yeah, you didn't care. I guess we can close with this. In and it's funny because whether it's eye floaters, visual snow, tinnitus, tinnitus, whatever you want to say, or the bigger picture of panic disorder, agoraphobia, OCD, whatever it is, health anxiety. When we learn to do less about this, the amazing ability, built-in ability of our brain to filter selectively what it doesn't need will get the job done for you. In the end, we're just letting the natural filter, because of this prediction engine that we have in our in our heads, wants to filter out things that it believes to be irrelevant. I don't need this right now. Zoop, it drops it out of the picture. So the same thing holds true for you know the thing in your ears, the thing in your in your vision, and the sensations you have when you're panicking, all of it. Wait, what do we do a whole episode on this? Let the filter work, let it work. Stop working against it. That's really yeah, that's really important.

SPEAKER_05 46:32

I like that. Um, how do how do you say tennitus over there?

SPEAKER_02 46:35

I would I have my whole life have said tinnitus, but there are people here in the US. Wait, we have not had that for a while. You're right. We need that. Um I know people over here say tennitus too. So there's probably worth correct. Who knows? Anyway, guys, thank you so much for listening. This is really great. Um, if you're interested in in hearing about the disordered guide to health anxiety when that comes out, or the disordered app, which we'll be hopefully launching soon, head over to disorder.fm and get on our mailing list, and what else can they do while they're there?

SPEAKER_05 47:06

Uh you can it'd be really appreciated if you could leave reviews and stuff, or if you know someone, I'd like to recommend it to a friend. But we either way, we appreciate you tuning in. And uh big thanks to my co-host, and we'll uh catch you next week.

SPEAKER_02 47:20

I'll see you next week, hopefully with a better opener. Thanks for indulging us.

SPEAKER_05 47:24

No, I loved that.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

I loved it. All right, guys, we'll see you next week. We're out of the way.