You Know You're Anxious When .... (Episode 01)

SPEAKER_01 0:06

What makes disordered unique, we feel, is that we've both experienced crippling anxiety in the past, um, but kind of made a job out of educating and helping others. We're uh in a good place now uh with our anxiety, and wherever you are with your anxiety, and you want to come to a safe space to hear not only help from professionals but people that have been through it, uh, just know that you're welcome here.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

I would walk around with my hand on my neck, taking my pulse all day long, or checking my wrist, or leaning down and checking the pulse in my ankle to make sure there was one.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

For me, wow, something awful is about to happen. And why does everything look and feel weird all of a sudden? Welcome to Disordered Anxiety Help. My name is Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist based in the UK. I'd also like to introduce you to my wonderful co-host from across the pond, Mr. Drew Linsalata. How are you doing today, Drew?

SPEAKER_02 1:10

I'm good, Josh. Thanks. Uh, as Josh said, I am Drew Linsalata. I am a therapist in training and a graduate student in the US, New York specifically.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Both Drew and I have a uh history of doing podcasts. We've had our own, but we decided to come together and um uh combine forces and uh see what we can do. Um also off off mic, we we're we're we're good friends, we talk about anxiety a lot, very passionate about the subject, and um yeah, I'm really excited for this. Um today's episode title is called You Know You're Anxious When. You know You're Anxious When. Drew, you know you're anxious when.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

Oh man, I could you we could just roll tape for two hours and I could tell you, oh, my old, you know, I'm anxious when. Um I think this is that thing that speaks to like what's the difference between just regular anxiety and and when things go off the rails and the topics we often discuss. I know for me, I I and this is a thing I've talked about. I knew that something wasn't quite right. You know, you're anxious when you're constantly worried that the orange juice has been poisoned, and you've never worried about that before. Suddenly, that's a thing. Whoa. Is that is that the first time I'm going right for that? That's I lived through that for quite a while. That was an indicator that like something's not right here.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Really? Spoil orange juice. You know you're anxious when you for me, wow, something awful is about to happen. And why does everything look and feel weird all of a sudden? I've not taken any drugs, I've not drunk, everything just feels quite spaced out and weird. My hands don't look like mine, and my thoughts have started to race. And yet, I'm not in any danger. I'm you know, I don't think there's anything externally wrong, but why do I suddenly feel so different? And why do I feel like something awful is gonna happen? That for me was how it started. Let's keep going. Let's play, let's play anxiety top trums.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

Yeah, all you better know. Um yeah, you know you're anxious when things that you used to do without ever thinking about it would elicit huge waves of fear. Like, why am I so afraid to get in the car and drive away from the house?

SPEAKER_01 3:26

That's oh, driving anxiety. I guarantee you there'll be an episode on that. Um massive one, driving anxiety. Yeah, um, in other words, me. Uh you know you're anxious when all your attention has gone from external everyday stuff to hyper focusing on yourself, sensations. Maybe there's you know, a tight chest, maybe there's strange things going on. Um, and that has all your attention. And you've got all these, you're kind of obsessed with how you feel. You're fixated on the body or the sensations all day.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

Yeah. I had uh, you know, I knew I was anxious when I would walk around with my hand on my neck, taking my pulse all day long, or checking my wrist, or leaning down and checking the pulse in my ankle to make sure there was one. That's I'm like, something's not right here.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

I need some therapist compassion. I'm just laughing at you. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

No, it's just true at the time I knew it was completely ridiculous, but I felt so strongly compelled to check all these parts of to make sure my heartbeat was right all over my body. That was a red flag. Wow, wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

And and I know you know this and I'm just because we've got quite a lot of uh followers on social media, but the amount of people I hear who uh uh compulsively check their fitness watches, you know, oh what's my heart rate now? What's my heart rate now? Um, yeah, to the point where with clients I've actually said, you know, let's, you know, maybe it's okay to take the watch off for a bit now. You know, I don't think, you know, if if something catastrophic was going to happen with your heart, I don't think your your Apple Watch is gonna jump out and say, You're gonna die. So yeah, you know, yeah, you're all right. And actually it causes more anxiety than than than it doesn't for a lot of people because they're like, oh my god, I'm sat watching TV and my heart rate's 130. You know, like that's not normal.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

You know, how did you know it was 130? And then they're um um you checked your watch, didn't you? So yeah, thank goodness there were no fitness watches when when I was going through all that. That would have been a nightmare for me, an absolute nightmare. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:34

You know you're anxious when you feel like it's okay to troll Google for eight hours a day, and despite it not providing you any assurances or little sprinklings of reassurance, you find that you're always drawn to the worst case scenario.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

I have uh, you know you're anxious when you're in your online anxiety support group and you will just scroll endlessly to just see if anything is new, even though you have no nothing you're getting, but you just scroll it anyway. I I was that I did that.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Really? Did you do I didn't have an anxious community when I well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yeah, when I started, I mean, look, I got a couple of years on you, and there was no internet when I was going through the worst of it. When this all kicked off from me, it was in the late 1980s.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Carry a pigeon. I no does anyone else have chest problems?

SPEAKER_02 6:28

I was smoke, I was sending smoke signals, whatever it took, chiseling on rocks, but um there was no internet. But when I went through like my my experience where I was withdrawing from an antidepressant, I was on that was 2005. There was a website that I would just glue myself to every single day and just refresh the page and refresh the page and like nothing new has been posted in the last 45 seconds, Drew. What are you doing? So I know you're anxious when you get fixated at that level. What would you think you were looking for? I don't know. I mean, in retrospect, I was it was just a comfort scroll. It was anything, just some anything to occupy me other than how I was feeling and what I was experiencing, I think. So it didn't matter. And you know, you don't want to see people ego, you know, you're anxious when you're looking forward to see people posting their struggles, which is you don't want to see people struggle, but yet it was it makes you feel less alone.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Well, there's mine, you know, you're anxious when you feel alone, and actually you're willing to you take comfort in people's struggles, not because you're a sadist, right? I mean, you might be, but you know, separately, it's because actually I feel less alone. I don't uh I I'm looking to find people to feel less alone, and you know, uh we we run anxiety groups and things like that, but very strictly and ethically, because yes, support groups can be great, but as you'll find out, the more you listen to disordered, sometimes they can not not be helpful and actually keep you in the sphere, the world of anxiety. Um, yeah. So that that that's my you know you're anxious when what's yours? This is good. Let's keep playing this weird meta-cognitive game of ping pong.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

You know you're anxious when you start to make excuses to not to not socialize, to not go to events, to not. I was I made the craziest excuses. And in retrospect, I gotta believe that my friends and family had to know that something was up. But I would I would make plans and then cancel them at the very last minute all the time.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

All the yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, I did that as well. But in my head, I don't know if you can relate to it, but it I had this kind of thought like, oh, I'm avoiding now, I'll do it when I'm better, when I fix myself. I just need to sit at home and ruminate a bit more. You know you're anxious when you think you can think your way out of a problem. Yeah, I I can think my way out of these feelings. If I I mean, I in in years ago I call it, you know, finding the miracle thought. If I find the miracle thought and ruminate at home, along with the googling and things like that, then I can be fixed and I can access my life again. So, yeah, avoidance. Yeah, that was a big one for me. Yeah, just ruminating, never getting anywhere, but feeling like I could.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Well, for me, I would I would make a lot of plans, which I knew I was gonna cancel. And by the way, that's my dog Topper in the background. If you listen to disordered going forward, you're gonna hear him.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

He just Yeah, Strudel's not here today, but you will also probably hear him at some point.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Yeah, he needs to be heard. But um, for me, I would make those plans and I would know I would be pretty much like 95% certain I was gonna cancel them at the last minute. But somehow I thought that if the plans were a week in advance, that somehow in that week I would find the magic bullet that would make it so that I wouldn't cancel. I don't I had no plans to to do anything different, but I just hoped that somehow in that week, seven days, that's enough time. I'll be able to go to lunch in seven days, and then I would call and cancel everybody an hour before.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

Really? That's really yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

I there was no logic to it at all. It was just an emotional thing, like maybe I'll be better in seven days.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah. Well, a lot I was I was so agrophobic, I just ref categorically refused to do anything, so I I struggled to leave my room. You know, you're anxious when you feel like you'll lose control, have a heart attack, or die, or have a panic attack and fear panic attacks outside of your and I'm doing air quotes, um, safe space. So, oh, if if I go too far from my house, or if I go too far from my safe space, by the way, which I'm probably having panic attacks in anyway, but if I leave that, something awful is gonna happen. And I remember even before any diagnosis, I just thought me going to the supermarket or me going for a walk somewhere, which I'd usually enjoy, that would push me to the point where I couldn't cope or my body couldn't cope. Um so yeah, just to be cheeky and add another, you know, you're anxious when. Sorry, Drew. But it's like, what if what if I push this? What if I push this to the point where I can't cope, which I think is is one of the core fears to most anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Yeah, it will be too much. You know, you're anxious when you wind up, you know. To me, there were those safe places, and the safe places got so specific. Like, if I feel this way, it must immediately run to my bedroom and lay on my back. It was very specific. Or or the bathroom, and I would Yeah, I did that. Yes, it was very specific. Like I'd have to go to the bathroom because that on the bathroom I could sit on the floor with my back against the tile, which was cool. You know, you're anxious when you build all kinds of crazy rules as to what will make you feel better or calm down or get through it in the heat of the moment.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah, and let's let's be very kind of honest. That was the most scared and most awful I've ever felt. Like, this is not just like, oh, you know, you're anxious, like like really consuming. You know you're anxious when your life has been consumed by fear.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Yeah, yeah. Uh, you know, you're anxious when you jump out of the car in the parking lot at IKEA. You know, you guys have IKEA? That horrific.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

I mean, yeah, there's some places that still give me anxiety, and it's nothing to do with my anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

It's just yeah, so much you literally jump out of the car. I did that. I I was we were waiting to park at an IKEA here in New York, and I'll never forget this. And I could feel the anxiety, it was just at that level where it's just right at the edge of boiling over all day long, and I didn't want to be there. I was terrified. I didn't want to go all the way to IKEA. I didn't want to walk through the rat lab of the maze of IKEA. I was anticipating the disaster. It is absolutely a rat lab. And I I anticipated it and it just boiled over in the car while we were just sitting in the parking lot waiting to park the car. And I just I just jumped right out of the car and ran about 10 feet until it dawned on me, what am where am I running? But that intense urge to flee, the flash of panic, and I jumped out of the car, and the people in the car with me just sort of looked like, Where the hell are you going? Like, did we miss a meeting? Is there something going on here? And we know IKEA is bad, but wow. Well, and I remember and to come back to one of my other, you know, you're anxious when the embarrassment of that and trying to hide it. I I had to quickly make up something. And I said, Oh, I had a really bad cramp in my leg. I had no such cramp. I had a panic attack and I tried to run out of the car. And then I shook my way through IKEA for the next 40 minutes. Like I'm done for going through IKEA though. No, no, I didn't go back for years. You know, you're anxious when you refuse to do things that make you anxious, and I did not go back there for many, many, many years because of that. Even though you went in. Even though I went in, it was such a and we'll talk about this on sure in future episodes. The mechanics of that were such that it was such a bad experience, and I was hoping that I would just keep I had no mechanism for calming down. I didn't hadn't really developed any good skills at that point, and I didn't understand what was going on well enough. So I just forced myself through it, and I was shaking and sweating, and I must have gone to the men's room 10 times, didn't have to, but it was just an escape for a minute.

SPEAKER_01 14:21

Yeah, yeah. So you so you and you'll hear this phrase a lot in disordered podcasts because we're here to help you. We're not here just to explain to you how bad anxiety is, we're just being very transparent in the sense that you know we live happy lives now. Um, but it's it sucked, you know, it's really bad. What Drew's just describing there is like something that we call white knuckling, which is a lot of people when they're anxious, they're brave enough. So Drew's brave enough to go through IKEA. I was brave enough to go to the supermarket once uh and I did it, but I white knuckled my way through it, and I just couldn't wait for it to be over. And I went home and yeah, subsequently avoided it for for quite a long time. Um yeah, you know you're anxious when you you white knuckle through situations, you grit your teeth, you were looking at that clock and counting down the moments you can go back to wherever you feel safest.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Oh, there was so much of that. There was a lot of that. Um, family functions and things of that nature, which were getting progressively harder and harder to get through until I stopped going to them. And again, now there's the you know, you're anxious when you feel like you're completely failing at life because you've disengaged with life, it was not good. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah, yeah. Uh you know, you're anxious when you care what what people think when you ruminate and worry if people are gonna reject you, um, humiliate you, bully you. Yeah, you know, yeah, and you know when you're anxious to go to a social event, and you can go to the social event, and then you're worried about how you are, so you pour all your energy into performing. Um, don't get me wrong, there's an element of performance to a lot of social stuff, but it's all kind of done to alleviate any fears of you know being rejected, usually at the expense of your own voice. And then afterwards you might be in the shower analysing what happened uh in bed, tossing and turning. Did I offend that person? Did they find me funny? Whatever. Yeah, you know, you're anxious when you're doing all that, and people's judgment is incredibly um important to you. Was that you? Was that your experience? I didn't have too much social anxiety because I've always been a been a gobshite. But in general, it's uh doing things like drama and stuff. But my anxiety was from I've always worried about think about what people thought, but I was able to kind of have the energy and the confidence to project the person I feel I wanted to be. When I developed an anxiety disorder, that confidence took a knock. So yeah, I was afraid to show people. But actually, what a good thing was through the anxiety disorder is that I learned to be more me, and hence why we're doing this podcast. So if you're struggling now and you're thinking, God, these guys are laying it on thick, you know, you're anxious. Know that if you can relate to this, I'm in a good place now, I'm happier and more mature than I've ever mature is probably uh debatable, but uh cannot now, yeah, yeah. Uh uh, but uh in general, that's where I mean I've such I've developed so much more as a person since doing and going through an anxiety disorder, um, and knowing and challenging all the prejudices around it being weakness and things like that. And oh yeah, no, it's so if you're hearing this now and thinking, all right, well, I can resonate to some of this, or you might not resonate with some of it yet. We've not finished yet. There's plenty more cards in this anxiety deck.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

We can literally go for hours and hours. You you know you're anxious when you feel like you have lost yourself. To me, I I would pine away for like where did that guy go? I I thought for a long time before I developed an anxiety disorder, I would have described myself as not an anxious person in any way, shape, or form. I wasn't afraid of anything. I would just just do stuff. I didn't think about anything. And then suddenly I would had to pine away for that guy. Where did he go? Where did the armor go? Where did the shields go? Where did the confidence go? Like, I didn't think he would ever come back. So I know a lot of people listening might feel that way. Like, I was never like this. What happened to me? Where did I go? And uh I I spent a lot of time just sort of almost grieving the loss of somebody that I thought was never gonna come back. But to follow up on your statement, the good news is he he did come back, but better. Like those lessons that I learned in that experience, which was horrific, but a better version of me came back. So which I'm you you upgraded your firmware, Drew. I did. It was a total reboot and it took a long time, so a lot of control alt-elete, you know, my brain. But um, you know, yeah, you know you're anxious when suddenly you don't even know who you are anymore. Like you're yeah, yeah, you're entirely based on fear.

SPEAKER_01 19:22

Yeah, I I remember I remember at the worst of panic disorder. So I've got you know, I did have panic disorder and um obsessive compulsive disorder. And I remember in pack with panic disorder, you know, it started when I was at work and I was making a cup of tea, and I suddenly felt this sense of doom and detachment. I felt like I was in the matrix, I felt like I was going crazy. Um, my thoughts were just racing like crazy, my chest tightened, I could feel my heart like palpitating, but then skipping beats. Um I could see these float of things in my eyes. I couldn't catch a full breath. And I felt high, but high without the joy and euphoria. It was like a like a high, like a whoa, like you know, you're talking like it's half eight in the morning, you know, like it's not there's no reason for me to feel this level of this. And what I now know is that that was a panic attack or the start of a breakdown. But then I I've become so fixated on how much that scared me and ruminated so much that it became a bigger thing. And and no one really told me what it was. Like some people mentioned it was a kind of panic attack and stuff, but I thought panic attacks, you know, were you know, people hyperventilating, rolling around on the floor doing that. No, I just froze, I went pale, and suddenly and it changed my life. At that moment, my like you said, Drew, suddenly I just got on my day, and then suddenly, bang, the anxiety itself became the problem. I became I developed a phobia of feeling that out of control, and so but I just thought it wasn't wrong with my brain, so I went home, and I don't blame myself for this because I no one told me, my doctor didn't tell me uh I was just given antidepressants. I said, But I'm not depressed, I just felt really scared all of a sudden. Uh don't get me wrong, as anxiety went on, I felt depressed, but that's that's another story. But like, yeah, just knowing that that experience was so it is like a new complete new chapter, and you're right. If you don't get it, you get it. There's a difference between conventional anxiety and disordered anxiety, and you know, if uh pretty much what we've said so far is all in the disordered side, uh don't get me wrong, if you're conventionally anxious, we'll talk about that on this podcast too. It's it's just you know, it's as important and just as valuable. Yeah. But you know, if we're drawing from our own experience, you know, you know you're anxious when suddenly your life can change in a moment and You become totally obsessed with how you feel.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Yeah. In that, in that moment, you know, first panic attack stories. You know, you're anxious when you have your first panic attack. I would agree. And I was in the safest place in the world. I was everything was going so well in my life in that that time. And I felt no stress. I had not had any sort of previous, like, oh, I'm stressed, but nothing like that. And one night I was literally just reading a book. Like I was in the house I grew up in. It was there was nothing wrong. And I was like instantly depersonalized, which I had never felt before. But in retrospect, we'll talk about this one day. As a kid, I would feel that.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Now I know so much same. Do you realize it? Like sit sitting in a corner of a room and feeling like the room is super far away. I dissociate it. I dissociate it as a kid and enjoy it. I also had, do you know the heart flutters and palpitations? I had that as a kid and enjoyed it because it felt like I was on a roller coaster.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Isn't that amazing? The different interpretation. I can remember very clearly under the age of 10 telling my mother, You look like you're so far away right now. And now in retrospect, I know what that was. I didn't know what it was back then, but I didn't give it a second thought. It was just, I don't know, this is weird. Like I didn't even think that. I had that too, but it wasn't a problem. No, I didn't interpret it that way. But when it happened to me when I was 19 that night, I my interpretation was instantaneously, this is what it feels like when you die. I was convinced for a couple hours at night that I was dying. And when it was over and I managed to kind of get out the other side, not knowing what was happening to me, I thought for sure I had somehow magically dodged death. I didn't know. And that night, I mean, people would people ask me sometimes, how long does it take to develop panic disorders? Honestly, in retrospect, my own personal experience, I would say about three and a half minutes, because I was so afraid of that happening again that it became my entire focus. Everything changed in that moment for me.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

I will explain why in this podcast as well. Like actually, it makes sense why it happened. Your brain didn't break. No. Uh, and people get to their anxiety, whether it's a diagnosis or whether it's a problem, uh, in their own way. But we can talk about because we work with hundreds, I mean, together collectively, thousands of people. Um, and that isn't hyperbole, genuinely, whether it's through social media or for me in my practice here. Uh, and there's all there's usually themes that go through it that you can link to, and not just the word trauma, don't get me wrong, you can be anxious and experience trauma. I was going through a lot of trauma at the time when I developed panic disorder, but I didn't develop PTSD, thankfully. Well, I did a little bit, but I'll explain it to you later. Um, and what we're gonna do is talk about, you know, from our collective experiences, both personal and professional, what you can do to help yourself in this podcast. And, you know, obviously this isn't a replacement for therapy, but what it is is something a place where we've kind of ciphered through all the nonsense and the crap out there, and there is. Don't get me wrong, we're not the doctrine of all anxiety help, but all we're gonna provide to you is yeah, our experiences uh and our professional training. And if if these words and this podcast helps you, you know, jump on board. Um we plan on having guests on and talking about different modalities and and experts and stuff like that. But um, and as we go on, you know, the podcast will evolve. You know you're anxious when you're trying to explain and overly promise to your listeners things that you haven't even planned out yet.

SPEAKER_02 25:39

You know you're anxious, but right, you're trying to jam everything into a one-minute podcast episode because what if we miss something?

SPEAKER_01 25:45

I I yeah. Do you want a profit on here? We'll get a profit on here, we'll do everything. You know, do you want yeah, do you want this in spatial audio? You know, do you want us to massage your shoulders? So because this podcast will do some people pleasing coming out there, and there we go.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

We do have a lot of cool plans like that, and we're making some of it up as we go along, there's no doubt about it, because it gets sort of baked into both of our personalities. But you know, I think that the one voice also that we're gonna we feel is gonna be really important here is yours. So, you know, we have a couple of really great uh ideas in terms of letting you guys pop in with voice messages or little video clips of things that you did successfully met challenges or asking us questions that will all evolve over the next couple episodes. So stay tuned for that. We'll invite you to ask us questions that we'll play on the air, we'll answer them, we'll share your wins, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Yeah, let's do the did it anyways. Do you remember when I did that? It was I haven't done it for a while. Let's let's put it on this podcast. It was great.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

I would totally do that. In my Facebook group, we have Wednesday wins where people post their exposure challenges and they're so happy and they cheer for each other.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

We'll bring that stuff here. Drew, that that's that's your fault that you're compressing joy into one day a week. There we go. I am the joy compressor. Did you win? Did you win on Thursday?

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Well, according to Drew, that doesn't matter. Put it in your back pocket, we share those on Wednesday. Uh yeah, I get it. So no, I I think there's a lot to offer here. And you know, we've spent 20-something minutes rambling about our own anxiety experiences, but and we can't possibly cover everyone's experience because that it is very wide and very varied. We did, you know, but if you resonate with any of this.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Should we quick fire or the quick fire, you know you're anxious when just let's try let's widen the net. Okay, I'll go first. You know you're anxious when your digestion is off.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Yeah, you know you're anxious when your your digestion is off, and then you try to control every last thing you eat, and you you only eat four foods because you think they won't make you anxious.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

And then you're monitoring stuff like your bowel movements and things like that, and your weight. Uh, that was actually a big trigger for my OCD. Um, which I had a trigger not so long ago. I remember I shared with you where just one day I stood on the scales and I was a bit lighter than what I thought I was. Yeah. And I was trying to lose weight at the time, so it was good news, but my OCD was like, you're dying. There's evidence immediately right now, completely off out of the blue. I was like, what? So strange. Um, you know you're anxious when you find it difficult to say no to people.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Yeah, that that's a good one. You know you're anxious when you walk around with a blood pressure cuff in the in your car. All the time. Yeah, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Yeah, that's a good one. You know you're anxious when you sweat more than usual.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

Oh yeah. Oh, god, that was me. Constantly hot, cold, hot, cold, hot, cold. Or at least it felt that way. I'm guessing my body was hot flushes, hot flushes and stuff as well. Yeah, middle of the winter, run outside to stand in the snow and then be freezing and then stand in front of the heater and then run back outside to stand in the snow an hour later.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

And it's what it's like if uh particularly for menopausal women, like is this the menopause? This is my anxiety. What is this? Do I pay attention to this? Do I not? Yeah, I remember that.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think uh one of the common themes that you know you're anxious when you worry about everything, but then you worry about worrying because you know you shouldn't worry. Yeah. So uh worrying and then meta-worrying.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Yes, the worry about the worry. The what yeah, I worry about the worry. Uh oh, yeah. You know you're anxious when you avoid doing things that you usually do, like having a wine. Now we're not, you know, uh avoid having a wine or a beer. Now, I'm not saying alcohol is good for you, but I am avoiding that just in case it makes me more anxious. That was a big one.

SPEAKER_02 29:41

I can't how much time I spend talking about coffee and tea and things with caffeine in it in my community. I'm amazed. I did that. Did you do that? I avoided all caffeine. All caffeine. I remember at one point too. Um, you know, you're anxious when you eat it. It was like an ice cream thing, it was somebody's birthday. I don't remember. And there was like ice cream sandwiches from Carvel. Anybody who lives in the east coast of the US knows Carvel and Tom Carvel and his voice and his commercials. And they had those little flying saucer things. And I guess the cookie part of the ice cream sandwich was had a lot of cocoa in it, chocolate. And I ate it and didn't think about it. And then I was absolutely beside myself for two hours because my heart started racing because it was caffeine in the chocolate part.

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Oh, also, tyramine in dark chocolate sends you nuts. It's great, it actually makes you feel good. It's part, it's one of the chemicals um in dark chocolate, it's very good for you. It's healthy, it's fine. Tyramine and caffeine. And I got, I think I had some decaffeinated chocolate once, and I remember having it, and I was like, I feel wired. And then I was worried that, well, if there's no caffeine in the chocolate, then something must be wrong. And actually, but actually, tyramine is really quite a strong chemical as well. It's like it's a stimulant. I agree. Uh yeah, tyramine. Uh, I mean, don't avoid it, like enjoy the chocolate. But I remember back at the time obsessing. There we go. You know you're anxious when you're checking the ingredients. Yep. On you, I know you did this, Drew. I did that. You did that. That's true. I did.

unknown 31:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

I always think of you when I hear that one because I get clients now and then like, I'm checking the label on like paracetamol that I've had all my life, and it doesn't really bother me. But suddenly I have to check now.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

Yeah, you that's another one. You know, you're anxious when you will not take an aspirin, you will not take a Tylenol, you will not have a headache. I won't take an as and I that is interesting because that habit persisted today for me. Not because I'm afraid anymore. Actually, my knees were killing me last night. So I took, I did take two tylenol last night. And even now, at two o'clock in the morning when I'm opening the thing and say, like, I'm gonna take two tylenol because my knees are sore. I I really thought back to the days when that was terrifying to me to swallow those. Even though it was an open bottle, we I taken others, people in the house had taken them, but for some reason I would worry that maybe this is the time that I have some sort of crazy reaction to this. You just developed a massive even today. Wow, that's really interesting. Yeah, I wasn't afraid last night, but it did bring me back to those days when I'm like, oh, look at me taking a Tylenol without even thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

You know, I've had that with um kind of drink spiking. Oh, so like even in like I've not thankfully I've never had my drink spiked, but like if I'm in a quiet pub with four of my friends, and I know they wouldn't do that. But for some reason, like sometimes I have to go back and be like, what if someone walked past and put some in my drink? It's like, well, there's no one in here, you know. If I'm in a nightclub or whatever, not that I go to nightclubs anymore, no one wants to see that, but like uh and my drinks on the side, and yeah, actually, I wouldn't advise I wouldn't advise people to leave the drinks unattended, but it's a bit different when like you're in a in a you know, an old pub, there's like 10 of you in there. Yeah, half of you are your friends, and you know, none of no one else cares. They go to the toilet, but that thought kicks in, or what if it does happen? And suddenly you're hyper-vigilant, you're checking for signs of spiking, and but then you're misinterpreting signs of the anxiety as the first sign or sound of being drugged, uh, and away and away you go. Uh, obviously, no one has ever done that to me, but yeah, uh in general, um, that's that.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Um I think as we go through, well, we'll flesh that out a little bit. Like I as you can see, we can both we live through those experiences, but those experiences still stay with us to a certain extent. So I still have that thought about the the Tylenol, the pain reliever when I took it. You could be in a pub and and still have that thought. What if my drink was spiked? The difference now is you can have the thought recognize, oh, this is that thing that my brain does sometimes and move past it. So yeah, and we'll talk about what that looks like to be fully recovered. It doesn't mean you never think that anymore, it just means that it's inconsequential for the most part when you do.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

So you know, we'll go, yeah, cool, cool. Okay. Uh I'll do one last one. Sure. I want to keep these things. Yeah, yeah, it's a good one. You know, you're anxious when you've got an an internal critic. Where every time you want to try and achieve something and be brave, and bear in mind if you're anxious, you're listening to this podcast, or you're trying to get your life back on track, well done to you. Seriously, it's tricky, and we've been there, and you might not feel your best at the moment, you might not be uh you feel 100% in yourself, but go easy on yourself. But you know you're anxious when you've got an internal critic and that puts you down that compares you to when you weren't anxious, or compares you to the perfect version of yourself, or maybe it's an echo of a voice of an abusive relationship or or a horrible neglectful parent or or whoever. Anxiety will exacerbate it, it will put a megaphone to that internal voice, uh, and keep you in that cycle. Uh, and we've named this internal critic who will be a feature because Drew and I have run successful podcasts, but what we've agreed on is that this podcast will be compassionate. Not to each other, we're gonna roast each other, but to you. We're gonna roast each other. But in general, but to the anxious people person, it's really, really important. And what's the name of our uh internal critic, Drew? Well, he's always looking over our shoulders. It's Craig the Critic. We'll be around. We had a discussion because in the UK Craig, it's called Craig. Anyone is called C-R-A-I-G is Craig, and you you Americans call it Craig. Craig. Yeah, Craig. Yeah, I and I mean, wow.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

So I'm pretty sure when Craig appears, sometimes he'll be Craig and sometimes he'll be Craig. You just won't know when.

SPEAKER_01 35:39

Yeah. So if I call him Craig the Critic, he'll call himself Craig. And similarly with Drew, if he calls himself Craig, he's like, actually, my name's Craig. You're getting it wrong already. So that's where we thought that. So listen up for Craig the Cricket.

unknown 35:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Craig the Cricket. Oh, yeah, that's the That sounds good. Yeah, we'll edit that up. That's fine. Yeah, yeah. And we'll start as well with some success stories in the next episode as well. But for now, thank you for tuning in to the first episode of Disordered, the first of many. Uh, hopefully. Um, it depends on if if Drew's orange juice has been spiked. That's exactly right. Yeah, poison. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Yeah, yeah. That'll be up to you guys. But no, I mean it was. I think I enjoyed the conversation. I think it was a good start for us. And like, come back and listen to episode two and hang in there with us and any sort of feedback you want to give us through all the different social channels and everything, we'll give you all the links and want to hear from you. So, see you in the next one. See you later, guys. All right. We are out. Hey, it's Drew. Thanks for joining Josh and I for the maiden voyage of disordered, episode one. We're still working out the details, social media accounts, and things like that. But if you want to know more about Josh or me or the Disordered Podcast, find us on the web at disordered.fm. That's disordered.fm. Join our mailing list so we can let you know when there are new podcast episodes available, and we'll also let you know how to reach out and ask us questions and share your wins so we can answer them on the air and share your victories with the community. Thanks again for joining us for episode one of Disordered. We'll see you next time.