Urgency and Impatience in Anxiety Recovery (Episode 181)

Drew Linsalata 0:01

It's not working. I'm doing something wrong. What else could I do? I need to do more exposures. I need to listen to more podcasts. How come it's not happening fast enough? Things get worse.

Josh Fletcher 0:08

When we start to behave urgently, whether it's our attitude or literally physically behaving urgently, we thank that threat responsibility. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. And to turn it off, we have to show it.

Drew Linsalata 0:18

Urgency is not compatible with this process.

Josh Fletcher 0:22

Another hurdle towards desensitization.

Drew Linsalata 0:24

Like, do more, go harder. But actually, we want to learn to do less. That paradox of, like, no, no, we're trying to learn to do less about our discomfort, not more. Like, about how long does it take? Like, it's gonna depend on you. We don't know. It'll take as long as it takes. Can you be okay with that?

Josh Fletcher 0:39

Okay, right. Now, if you've listened to this so far, why have you not recovered yet? Yes. Come on, get urgently, get pick those knees up and recover. Desensitize right now. If come on, time's money, impatience.

Drew Linsalata 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 181 entitled Urgency and Impatience in Anxiety Recovery. We're gonna talk about that thing where it cannot go fast enough, which I understand. Uh, I am Drew Lincelata, one half of disordered. All right, hurry up with the intro already. My god, we get it. Urgency and impatience in action. See, that's what it feels like, right? This isn't working. He's taking too long to do the intro. I did four exposures and I'm not better yet. So I I feel y'all. I get it. We should just skip the intros. Everybody knows who we are. I'm Drew Linsalata, one half of disordered. I'm an anxiety therapist in New York, and I used to be like you. I suffered too. And this dude that just interrupted me because he's so impatient and urgent is.

Josh Fletcher 1:32

So urgent and impatient. Yeah. Uh I'm Jessica Fletcher, also known as anxiety Josh, also a therapist, this side of the pond in the UK. And yeah, author, writer, podcaster, you get the drill. 181 episodes. Urgency and impatience, really good topic today. And uh studio audience, uh, some members are like, oh, yeah, oh, that's me. I'm very impatient. And how does that get in the way of anxiety disorders? How how does it get in the way, Drew?

Drew Linsalata 1:59

Oh, goodness. So first of all, I spent my most of my life. I would say I'm still not the most patient person, as inherently like personality trait, impatient. And it did not help me at all when I was struggling. Like the what I really needed to learn to be patient with this process. And I think what winds up happening is uh we all want to feel better and as quickly as possible, which is understandable, but when we try to force it, like then it gets urgent, it's not working. I'm doing something wrong. What else could I do? I need to do more exposures, I need to listen to more podcasts. How come it's not happening fast enough? Things get worse. They they accidentally get worse. Urgency is not compatible with this process.

Josh Fletcher 2:35

The thing is that when when your brain or you decide something's a problem that needs to be fixed, or anything in your life, and this is something I've said on the podcast, loads and loads, you know, or my car isn't working, or there's a leak in my roof, or there's a problem at work. If you apply urgency and attention, usually the problem gets solved quickly, quicker, doesn't it? You know, imagine that cliche boss, like, go, there's no, where's your urgency? Or me watching Newcastle at the weekends. Where's the urgency, lads? You want urgency, you it's it's often often a good thing. In the sensitized state and with anxiety disorders, urgency is, can be your enemy. Um, because it's literally when you're in fight or flight mode, when you're anxious, everything feels urgent, doesn't it? Urgent death, urgent action, that kind of you know, um, executive function above your brain, like move, act, solve, uh, or avoid or do something, that urgency to escape. But when we start to behave urgent during a response that designs literally physiologically prepares us for urgent action, when we start to uh behave urgently, whether it's our attitude or literally physically behaving urgently, we thank that threat response. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. And to turn it off, we have to show it. Um, combine that urgency with impatience. Why aren't I better? Yeah, why isn't this working? I did an exposure, this, I'm I'm eight minutes into this exposure. Why am I not completely cured and desensitized? I've been doing this for months, blah, blah, blah. You start to get its own little circle, and it's really important. Another hurdle towards desensitization.

Drew Linsalata 4:13

Yeah. You know, we often talk about that thing where like maybe the principles are somewhat universal, but the application is very individual and everybody has their own little blockages and challenges. This is one of them. I agree, because as crazy as it sounds, if we push and push and push, like impatience and urgency will give the instruction, go harder. Like, do more, go harder. But actually, we want to learn to do less. That paradox of like, no, no, we're trying to learn to do less about our discomfort, not more. And go harder doing less is like a really hard thing to kind of reconcile. So it gets you caught in that, like we see it in people who like, well, I did four exposures today, and like I feel like I'm supposed to do six. If I if I if I rest now, is that am I going backwards? Am I gonna lose all my my progress? Am I doing it right? Or you know, what am I doing wrong? They want to analyze everything to make sure that they're going as fast as possible in this process, and that's the opposite of what we want. So, you know, the paradox is it's always here, and if we don't, if we forget the paradox, we wind up getting ensnared in it. It's a trap.

Josh Fletcher 5:13

So yeah. I mean, your book drew seven percent slower. It addresses the antidote, doesn't it? The uh, you know, the answer of the urgency. When you do things slower, you're teaching the brain, hey, look, things aren't urgent. Yeah, you know, uh, and so you don't need to keep triggering the urgent alarm.

Drew Linsalata 5:30

It's lit, you've said it before. This is literally an urgency response that we are like experiencing. So you have to reflect back, not urgent, which is really hard. And you're gonna get it wrong sometimes. I did, but it's really hard when your brain, every that mechanism is saying emergency, do something right, do do something, do something, and you have to respond behaviorally with no, no, no, we don't we don't have to do anything. Emergency paging Dr. B. It's so funny because that popped into my head as soon as I said it.

Josh Fletcher 6:04

Uh you're right that the urgent we have to show it, non-urgency, you know, uh, and what that looks like. So, like, um, even if you're in the midst of it and you're you and you're ready and the attitude's right, and you're like, oh, I've been triggered. Now I can practice my exposure or uh you know my response prevention, um, whether if it's OCD and stuff, but doing that not urgently, so like, oh, am I grounding my I need to ground myself urgently, I need to accept and float, but urgently, you know. Uh have I I need to just urgently get through this exposure. This whole attitude, you know, is is is against the kind of willful tolerance attitude that I'll let's talk about say if you're doing something urgently, is it doing it willfully? Not really. It's a bit like me in IKEA. Do you have IKEA in the US? Oh, yeah, yeah, we do. Yeah, there's there's no willful tolerance there. It's me, I glide through, I do the whole lap, I'm sprinting around because I want to get the hell out of there. Not because I have an anxiety disorder, it's just I just can't be bought. No, unless it's for the meatballs at the end. No, I just want to get through it because I find it utterly soul destroying, you know? Yeah that that's not me willfully tolerating IQ.

Drew Linsalata 7:12

I have to urgently urgently do nothing. I have to urgently be non-urgent.

Josh Fletcher 7:17

Yes. Am I doing it right? And then there's the impatience. Yeah. Am I doing it right? Am I doing am I doing willful tolerance correctly right now? Yeah. It's like urgency and impatience.

Drew Linsalata 7:28

I would say, I'm sure you you get this too. We share an audience for the most part. Like, one of the most common questions I get asked in my comment section or my DMs is you know, about how how long does this take? Like, about how long does it take? How long did it take you? Everybody, and which I understand the question, but I'll always refuse to answer it. Like it's gonna depend on you. We don't know. It'll take as long as it takes. Can you be okay with that? You don't have to like that answer, but can you get okay with that? Because it that's part of building that that resilience, that psychological flexibility. Like this might take me two months, six months, a year. I don't know how long it's gonna take, and I'm gonna have to learn to live with not knowing how long this is gonna take. It's crazy because if you can if you can get okay with that concept, it's you're it's kind of feeding into what you're trying to learn anyway. So you know, acceptance of the unknown, things you can't control. It comes when it comes. That's right. It comes when you teach it. And the impatience part is uh I suspect that people forget. I I always use like the nuke the nuclear reactor, you know, idea. Like if you build a nuclear reactor, you want those alarms. If something's going wrong at Chernobyl, we want to know immediately. If you build a nuclear on your background, if you if you're if you're planning on building a nuclear if you're building a nuke plant in your basement, make the alarm system easy to activate and hard to turn off. Like we need multiple engineers and maintenance people and and designers to come in and look and say, okay, it's safe to turn that off. We don't want one annoyed dude on the night shift who just wants to take his nap to be able to just like hit the button and turn off the alarms and then the thing just melts. We we don't want that. Yeah. And that's the system we have. Yeah, we have that's what was built into us. It's easy to turn on, hard, it it needs like evidence. Come on, get let's get another set of eyes on this before I turn this down. And that other set of eyes is repetition, it's experiences, it's more experiences, it's more experiences. So the impatience of like, oh, I I've been doing all the things for three weeks after six years of panic disorder or agoraphobia, and I and uh it's not working. This isn't working, but I'm doing something wrong. This isn't working, so it's really hard to, you know, it's kind of tough. Yeah, I like that. What have we got in the uh did it anyway bank? Well, I kind of urgently want to play this one, so I will.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Hi, Drew and Josh. I just want to start off by saying thank you so much for everything you have taught me and all of your guidance and support. Um, so grateful to you. You guys will never know how much you helped. Um, I listened to you guys back in 2023 when I was going through a really hard time with my parents separating. Learnt a lot from you guys and have kind of been able to live my life pretty normally. Um sadly, last year I lost my nan who was really close to me, and I've been doing pretty well with dealing with that. Um, but found myself resensitized again in about August. Um, went and visited my family home and was swamped with horrible OCD thoughts about life and why we're all here and what's the point and we're all gonna die, and really awful things that of course we can't answer, but my OCD has stuck to it so bad. Um, it's been driving me round the twist. So I thought to myself, hey, let's be kind to ourselves here. What kind of makes me feel better or helped me in the first place? And I thought, well, true and Josh, obviously. So Craig the Critic did his thing and was like, no, don't listen to them. You know, last time you listen to them, you were struggling, and that means you're back where you were, and that was a really awful time. And what if we get stuck there again? And I just had to be brave and put you guys on. So I did it anyways, listening to your podcast, even though Craig the Critic was telling me that you guys were gonna trigger me and resensitize me and take me right right back to 2023 when it was all really scary. Um, but yeah, I did it anyway. I listened to your podcast, and I have been now for a couple of weeks, um, just to basically remind myself everything you taught me and that I don't have to find answers to these scary questions. Um, I've been carrying on life as normal, um, with the questions there, which obviously isn't fun, but I'm doing it anyway. And uh yeah, it's just nice to kind of be listening to you guys again. Um, I love how lighthearted you make everything, and I'm just super grateful. Thank you.

Drew Linsalata 11:37

Don't listen to disorder, they're gonna re-trigger you. That's just Josh's haircut, though. It's triggering for everybody.

Josh Fletcher 11:44

I'm the one who dishes up the haircut guys. Uh well done. Well, we often get it, you know, sometimes it's the opposite. Like, I need to stop listening to you because it's compulsive. And sometimes we're like, I'm a bit afraid, you know. Any emetophobes out of there, you know. When Drew and I look at our listening stats, the emetophobia one is not the most listened to one.

Drew Linsalata 12:03

No, and the minute you said slimy vegetables, the the listeners went to zero. We lost engagement immediately. So I regret nothing. Um you all are the problem in the comment section. We really well done.

Josh Fletcher 12:17

I'm sorry, sorry to say you lost you, Nan. And that's very common, particularly for OCD fixating people. For anyone, really, you know, when you lose someone, you go into an existential worry hole. I certainly have. I've lost many people, and it makes you question life. I think that's a very normal human thing. But you've also noticed that the fixating OCD mechanism wants to take that, grab all of your attention, and have you all to itself. Don't listen to those guys. Don't listen to advice. I'm looking after you, I've got your best interests at heart. Let's sit here and talk about what if this and that and the nihilistic view of the cosmos.

Drew Linsalata 12:51

Nah.

Josh Fletcher 12:52

Yeah, you can just crack on.

Drew Linsalata 12:54

100%. It's the cult leader. Uh OCD is literally like having a cult leader in your head. No, only I understand you. Only so right. Yeah, I got you. Only I see you. Don't listen to the therapist, don't listen to those guys with the podcast. They don't understand. This is real. I uh I understand you and I will protect you.

Josh Fletcher 13:10

Really? Yeah. And it is and the irony is there are OCD recovery cults. That's true. Where the cult leader sounds like your OCD.

Drew Linsalata 13:18

That's exactly only I know about this. Yeah, only I know about OCD. Only I know more than I'll debate anybody, any other expert, but I never actually do. I'll just say that I do. Like, yeah, I get that. Um, no, I hear you. Is there any worse thought by the way than what's the point of anything? Oh, like I feel that when she said that. I used to have that thought a lot.

Josh Fletcher 13:36

See, I've had that thought both. So I've had it through the lens of anxiety and depression. That's what I mean.

Drew Linsalata 13:42

And it was it was crushing now.

Josh Fletcher 13:44

But then I've also had the thought the thought of you know, I've been really harsh on myself and I've not hit deadlines, and uh, and I've just had the thought, what's the point in everything? And I was like, Oh yeah, the pressure's off. Who cares? So so it's actually I've had it in both ways. I've had the same thought, but through different lenses. Actually, one, it's quite positive, like, what's the point in anything? Oh, yeah, yeah. Let's stop taking life so seriously. Or what's the point in anything?

Drew Linsalata 14:10

Yeah. I know we're trying to solve a problem here, but what's the point of anything? When I wrote The Anxious Truth, I even wrote uh there's a little lesson in there about that. What what thoughts that used to be crushing to me and create a sense of urgency, like I have to figure this out now are like fun, you know. I could just talk about existence and death and annihilation and what's the point of all this. And like they're actually interesting thoughts now. How weird is that, right?

Josh Fletcher 14:36

But yeah, yeah, an audience member says, I can completely relate to that last did it anyway. I avoided the meditation app for years, and um something made me laugh. Uh Craig the Critic and Gary the Gallbladder both need to be evicted.

Drew Linsalata 14:53

Maybe don't say that in surgery, they might write out of anesthesia to a site call consult, Gary the Gallbladder, but I get it.

Josh Fletcher 15:01

Yeah, okay, right. Now, if you've listened to this so far, why have you not recovered yet? Yeah. Come on, get urgently, get pick those knees up and recover. Desensitize right now. If you've not done it, then do it. Come on. Time's money, impatience.

Drew Linsalata 15:15

Do you ever you know what I always find interesting when I started practicing too is uh clients who just assume that that I'm getting impatient with them? Like, oh, you know, I I I must hear once a week. Like, are you are you're not gonna fire me, are you? Because they're they they feel like they're taking too long, and then they assume that I must be getting impatient with their slow pace. I'm like, why would you think that? No, like I have no timeline for you.

Josh Fletcher 15:38

It's it's all right. So but that's when it comes, it's often anxiety disorders and people, this is where people differ, and often where your life experiences pay play a part. If you're a perfectionist or someone who's harsh on themselves, or when you assume from your previous life experiences that you're going to be reprimanded or pulled up or criticized, no, and a good therapist will never make you feel like that. You desensitize in your own time, it you we're different, you know. I was lucky, I could desensitize quicker because there are people around me that weren't judging me so so much quicker. I could desensitize quicker because I wasn't bombarded with Instagram and YouTube and all that stuff when I was drinking. I thankfully nothing and AI got I could desensitize quicker because of all that. Um, and so when people are like, Oh, you know, that Craig the critic again, like, oh, it's been six sessions now, why are you not any better? One, you usually are doing loads of things better, but two, you're assuming that someone's gonna like reprimand you or criticize you. No, no, no, no, no. And if your therapist is doing that, God, don't see that therapist. My gosh.

Drew Linsalata 16:47

Yeah, questioning the timeline. Like, oh, you should be further along, or or you know, why isn't they always further? You should never hear that for sure. I get it.

Josh Fletcher 16:55

Someone, even audience members said, I say to my therapist, Am I taking too long to recover?

Drew Linsalata 17:00

Yeah. No, it's no, weird, right? You take as long as you need, you know, that urgency and impatience with the process, the macro process, tends to lead toward, and we talked about this before that we did a whole episode on it. Like somebody who does an amazing, like did it anyway, or they complete their first exposure that they've been struggling with for so long, and then they totally discount it because they're not better yet, or because one thing was maybe a little off, or you know, yeah, I went to the mall for the first time in five years. Like, wow, awesome. Yeah, but you know, I had a thought about where the exits were, so the whole thing doesn't count. What? Why are you doing that? That's part of the impatience, I think, that shows up in the process.

Josh Fletcher 17:37

Have you ever had this? Um my my daughter's wedding's in two months, and I need to be better by then.

Drew Linsalata 17:45

Oh, yeah, yeah. I've got like also my my kids going away to college in September, and I need to be better so I could go take them and blah blah blah.

Josh Fletcher 17:53

Like, okay. No pressure. What yeah. Oh, and also this. I mean, what's gonna happen then? Like if you put so much pressure and measure, we're in the business of all feelings of welcome. You're measuring your anxiety, desensitization on not having anxiety on a day that's important to you, that's gonna backfire triple time. It's like saying to someone on their wedding, I've literally had this loads of times over the years, it's my wedding day. I don't want to be anxious on my wedding day. I'm like, okay, um, your homework literally is the homework I said, go out and find anyone who's been married and find out if they had zero anxiety on their wedding day. And if you do, it's fine, I'll refund you all your refund you all your sessions. Go and they were like, Oh yeah, yeah, so yeah. So what's a healthier mindset? Oh yeah, maybe being anxious is part of a good day. I'm like, oh, we came somewhere. Yeah.

Drew Linsalata 18:51

It's always so interesting because in this process, if you ask the two of us or anybody who practices like we do, like, are are we happy when a client leaves a session feeling better? I mean, yeah, I guess from as one human to another had a great day. But at the same time, I'm happiest when you are much more open to all the experiences. If you're a little more open when you walk out the door than when you came in there, then I we're winning, we, the team. So it has nothing to do with like, oh, I you know, being feeling different. The happy secondary fact is that you might feel different, but yeah, I get it. What does the person say? The the fear that how hard this is will make will end up making me feel hopeless. Yeah, urgency is a huge thing for me. So like it's recognizing, let's offer a practical thing. Imagine this, these two dudes will actually be practical for a second. So if you can see this, like I'm urgent and I press hard and I press hard and I keep pressing hard. Okay, well, notice when the urgency and the impatience surfaces and makes you want to do hard or do more or work harder. Or when it makes you want to berate yourself or apologize to other people for going air quotes too slow. What if you didn't? What you're you're gonna have to try experiment with not doing that. Criticizing yourself is not helping you at all. In fact, it's hurting you. So and apologizing to your therapist or the rest of the world for still still being anxious, you feel that urge come up and try to see what happens if you don't. Don't fix it. Don't fix, don't fix the discomfort, just let it be there.

Josh Fletcher 20:15

So absolutely. If you need to rewind and listen to that again, seriously, that's what I would say. I just wanted to like also this applies to people who are maybe surrounded by really supportive people and stuff, but it becomes like an ego identity thing. No, I'm not the person, I'm the rock for other people, I'm the one that people go to, I'm the high achiever. Yeah, and I've got to where I am in life because I do things efficiently and urgently. Well, yeah, and then when you develop an anxiety disorder, you wonder why you're sticking around. Sure. Because you're trying to apply the same thing to that. No, you need to learn a new skill here. And really, this is why sometimes I never regret having an anxiety disorder. It teaches you patience and compassion, and sometimes the anxiety disorder is there to come and teach you something. And I say that to her, you know, not as like some sage wizard, there's always something something learning to take from experiences, and it always comes with a balance. Um, and when often people say, No, this is I'm grieving, this is taking away something from my life. Okay, that's fair enough. You know, I I can do I can relate to that, but there's always something positive to come out of it, you know. Some of the nicest things I saw was like working with with the gentleman. One of my first ever years of working and working with gentlemen and um been agrophobic for decades. I had that feeling, and then we finally, you know, we went for a walk in the park, and you're thinking, oh no, and I've never the look in this guy's eyes when he his threat response came down and he was walking around independently in a park. Oh, it was worth the you know, the price on its own. It was beauty. He was like, Oh my god, I'm so happy. And yet, and yet there were people walking through the park that day like on their phones and whatnot and just not not care in the world, you know, and yet this person's just like accessing joy. That's just a small example of like, you know, don't just assume it's just taking things away. Uh, because that can drive urgency as well. I need to get better because each day I live with an anxiety disorder is wasted. No, I would disagree with that.

Drew Linsalata 22:19

I think part part of my urgency and impatience was I wanted to get back to the old me. Like the guy who never got anxious about anything and but no one liked the old you. Yeah, 100%. When I think about that, I mean I that's harsh, but okay. You got me back for the haircut. I didn't know I didn't know the old you I just assume No, but in all honesty, you know, I would pine away for the old me and like I got to get back to being that guy, that bulletproof like carbon fiber titanium coated guy. Never bothered nothing never bothered him. That was not right. Like what actually came out the other side was better than that. So it was all those skills still there, but now another dimension that I didn't have. And I think one of the things that's tough about people who come in with that identity of like, no, no, I'm I'm the problem solver. I'm the fast guy I'm the fixer on the or I hear it all the time with people like, but I've made a very good living by being a problem solver. I'm an attorney I'm an engineer I'm a designer. Like that serves me well. Okay. So like but I'm a problem solver so I can't stop problem solving. Well one way to solve this problem is to recognize that sometimes you have to stop problem solving. So use that skill and open up your mind just a little bit. Like does it mean that you're abandoning your identity if you learn to sit with a problem instead of take action I I would say that's just another you said it's another skill to learn discernment right so you're right that's tough and that does drive the urgency and the impatience for sure. No no no this works for me in the whole rest of my life and I want it to work here too. That was me.

Josh Fletcher 23:43

Like doesn't work that way doesn't work your knowledge drew of the urgency and again like seriously recommend reading 7% slower uh it applies to all this but yeah looking all these different aspects of of that urgency it's never yeah great to be urgent with an anxiety disorder unless you're actually in danger. Yep. But people with anxiety disorders aren't you know unless you know most of them are 99% of the time you're not yeah you know the you know that you know exceptions apply and if you're in in an abusive relationship you're in danger you know then yeah you can't overcome you can't turn off the amygdala when you're literally in danger. Like that and we wouldn't want you to either um yeah um what was I gonna do? Would you like a written did it anyway? I sure would did it anyway this is from S in Salt Lake Utah did it anyway I have struggled with mental health issues since I was twelve years old. I am now in my fifties and finally learning to manage some of my issues while still caring for my family. Josh and Drew with your shared experience expertise and that of a good therapist I attended my first family reunion in over three decades without taking a single tranquilizer. It was definitely not easy but I kept reminding myself when I wanted to run away it's only an adrenaline dump and my body will absorb it. Oh I like that I will continue to expand my exposures so I can better support others through this sometimes treacherous ravine. You have both provided me a glimpse of the ridge I'm aiming for I thank you from the bottom of my heart and the depths of my soul that's some essence of it.

Drew Linsalata 25:22

That is impressive S, you're a good writer too. Yeah I was gonna say can you write my Valentine's code? I'm gonna hire S to do all our ghostwriting way better than AI. You guys keep AI we got S wherever we're going next there we go man that's really really awesome. Your eyes are not a bug they're a they're a feature I got one this morning your audience already knows period this episode isn't guest pitch. We'll teach them I'm like oh AI much block. Anyway uh it was really good you know the other thing that I thought was interesting was not that you're an uh it's not that it's that it's not that you're then ugly duckling it's that you're a beautiful swan it's not just it's and and this is where it gets interesting. Here's the kicker but here's the thing so S actually used the word tranquilizer that's Claire Weeks like old school I love it tranquilized I haven't heard that in a long time reminds me of that Will Farrell movie who gets a shot in the neck with the tranquilizer gun what movie was that back to school or old school yeah or something yeah yeah yeah I remember old school shot with this tranquilizer dart in his neck anyway S is doing so well I love that and it was such a visual one as well like I want to get to the ridge and the beauty I love it.

Josh Fletcher 26:40

Yeah you keep going that's brilliant I love that as well uh I something I often say in the middle of panic and an exposure take that if you wish both S and I use it it's only an adrenaline dump my body will absorb it literally what I used to just say well it's just an adrenaline dump that was actually even the attitude of just saying that remember early on we used to say like you know it's just anxiety. It depends how you say it. Sure. So some people are oh it's just anxiety hoping for for it to be urgently fixed or just it's just anxiety.

Drew Linsalata 27:08

Why am I even like whatever let's carry on right why am I giving this so much credence 100% right I I love that my body will absorb it. It literally does that it will literally metabolize it. That's what it does. Like that's really good.

Josh Fletcher 27:21

I never thought of using that it will actually pest it out if you want to be real it's true. It's 100% true point I'll piss it out later.

Drew Linsalata 27:33

I'm actually going to use that for where is this panic attack going to wind up? In the toilet in the toilet literally in every panic attack ends in the toilet we may have we can't that there you go merch that's a t-shirt right there. Your panic attack will end in the toilet because it will really good as well as any new books we release. Yes that's exactly right speaking of books I'm gonna put a link to 7% slower in the show notes for this episode. I never do that but I'm gonna so if you want to read that book I'll put it in there no it's a good book.

Josh Fletcher 27:59

Drew's Drew gets all modest and stuff like that but it's a really good book and I will endorse it for him.

Drew Linsalata 28:04

Oh thank you well you were at the forward which I appreciate here's a good comment in our Did I write the forward I don't even remember that. I know it was like four years ago five years ago same thing right but uh yeah uh here's a good comment in our studio audience. I'm a pusher and a perfectionist like I rocketed my way up at work as I'm a pusher and perfectionist. Then I have the audacity to be surprised when I have an anxiety disorder and a small tolerance for failure. That's such a good comment because it shows up that's a brilliant comment. Yeah I have the audacity wow what a surprise who saw this coming oh everybody like so it's it's kind of weird right yeah that that that that literally sums oh and this episode is for that yeah 100% uh how about the the self-compassion part like I I think self-compassion definitely comes in here like you you would not push someone you care about someone you love like a a kid a a partner a friend I don't care just another human being if you're gonna be kind to somebody you would never like crack the whip and like push them get better faster you maggot like my old Facebook group we're not having that but like you do it to yourself the the impatience and urgency because you want to feel better will drive that whip cracking like no I got to do I have to go faster it's not working something is wrong I got to fix it.

Josh Fletcher 29:13

You would never do that to your neighbor like never so have a little bit of the Homer Simpson from the Simpsons movie run jump jump and my favorite one which actually applies to people listen to this podcast where he goes rest and he's whipping whipping him rest he's whipping them and then don't surprise don't be surprised when the wolves come back and eat him at the end of the day because you've been whipping yourself into resting rest that I forgot all about that that is so good.

Drew Linsalata 29:45

Rest yeah that it that kind of it does apply though yeah that that that applies well we see that too sometimes like oh well now I'm going to I'm gonna meditate so hard I need I'm gonna be I'm gonna be like so I'm gonna work so hard at my mindfulness practice like wait what?

Josh Fletcher 30:02

Give you the confused dog look oh yes in summary stop being urgent and impatient yeah learn to stop it's okay uh because not only an exposure a lot of what you learn here the exposure is you're not just exposing yourself to scary feelings you're exposing yourself to Craig the critic and defying them at him. Yeah we do have a we we have another audio did it anyway don't we and then we also have a question sent in that I'd like to ask for the end of the show.

Drew Linsalata 30:27

All right so how about I play this one and then we'll do a question. Sounds good.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

Hi Josh and Drew this is Heather you read one of my questions and did an episode on my struggle a couple weeks ago so thank you I appreciate that I'm just quickly sharing this did it anyway because I'm really proud of myself and I don't have anyone to share these wins with because people just don't understand what I'm struggling with. Um so I had to get blood drawn and I needed to fast this morning you know overnight this morning whatever um and this is a struggle for me anytime I have to go for a long period of time without eating uh my mind is just so convinced that I'm gonna pass out. Um and so I brought snacks that I could like quickly eat after but um I went and I did it and I was like you know what I do not want food to get the wind because if I ate then it would have been like oh gosh the only reason you didn't pass out was because you you know ate this snack and so I was I drove home and um really worked on refraining from ruminating about it and then I got home and I was like nope nope not gonna do it yet so I dried my hair and just was pr being casual about things just living my life um and now I'm sitting with my breakfast in front of me but I still haven't ate it yet because I just don't I want to get this win um that you know my mind made up this story that I was gonna pass out and it wasn't actually true. I was just finding any any evidence in my body that oh maybe it might happen.

Drew Linsalata 32:04

So anyway uh you guys are always in my head I think that's a good thing I guess but um just so grateful for all that you do isn't that a beautiful win and of course you can share that here that's what this um that's what it's for you know and uh everyone can relate to the how brave that was I think that's one of the the beauty you know I don't like the word community I was pushed back against it and it's not fair really but there is a value because other people misuse it that's why I I get it but there's a value there like this is one of those places where you could say I I delayed a snack for 20 minutes no one would okay so but here we get it everybody everybody listening understands what you did so I've been there myself it's a really good part of good um you know you're on your way to desensitize and get into a good place when you your brain is compassionately saying yeah I want the credit I don't want to give that to that snack or that food because my brain needs to learn that it's me and that's a really good compassionate thing too it's like I want the credit for this I want to be able to do that.

Josh Fletcher 33:09

Yeah um which which I think is great. Yeah well done very well done uh I have a question love love your podcast and all you do it's a they've not left the name but yeah love your podcast and all you do it's extremely helpful to so many people thank you if you read this in a future episode please don't use my name oh I already took it out um well done you've talked about the relationship between anxiety and food before but from the perspective of someone who eats as a way to cope with anxiety or optimizes one of my OCD themes is wasting away I've also had this theme and my anxiety often makes me lose my appetite this creates a loop where mealtimes or feelings of hunger make me feel anxious which makes me lose my appetite which kicks off the OCD and continues. I wonder what your advice is on this Drew she didn't actually say Drew at the end but there we go.

Drew Linsalata 34:04

Well actually you have personal experience with this theme so I want to hear what you have to say but I think you know I I could point to process awareness. If you could see clearly like okay I can see this process turn up which ends with me thinking no eating please but then ends but then after that it's like yeah but then I'm gonna waste yeah but no eating yeah but then I'm gonna waste if you can see the process then where would you want to where where do you put the interrupt in there? I take a bite I I eat and then I allow the discomfort like pick the discomfort you're already uncomfortable so if you eat even though you don't feel like eating you don't have to be hungry to eat so if you eat a little something you don't have to jam an entire like cheeseburger in your face but eat a little something and then that's going to trigger discomfort so be uncomfortable with that because that's a more productive discomfort gets you out of the loop right yeah yeah I mean you've lived that from that experience so yeah for me I mean you've heard my two golden rules everyone and clients if you listen to this and whatnot same two golden rules it's when you're in a mixture there you're in a quandary of uh oh yeah eating whilst not having an aftersight yeah that sucks not eating sucks more my two golden rules are do what non-anxious you would do and don't make the anxiety OCD the most important voice in the room so what those are rules there what they would be well it's dinner time so non-anxious me would eat dinner.

Josh Fletcher 35:28

Yeah and yeah I'm feeling anxious notice the second rule everyone gets there don't make it the most important thing in the room it's not saying eat whilst feeling calm it's saying eat but don't make it the most important thing in the room so you could be eating and watching your favorite show and yes it doesn't feel great uh as Drew often says behave first feelings follow uh and that's always stuck with me too uh and then through that you start to realize oh actually yeah there we go now um and the OCD is like fearful wasting away just eat what you need to do also look at your obviously make a list of all your compulsions and stuff I had the wasting away one year ago uh put away your weighing scales do not weigh yourself for the next week or two i i was in the middle of the night just weighing myself because I know what it's like to have really bad OCD yeah you know uh just take away all those quick fire compulsions as well and that's the advice I can give you knowing very quite little.

Drew Linsalata 36:23

I've we've actually done it's crazy is I mean we we do the work we do is a little weird. I've actually worked with clients where we're eating a snack in session. Just something small a few crackers or it's like a little bit of cheese or something, a piece of fruit. For people who do the whole when I get anxious I can't eat. And what really what it tends to be is when I get anxious I do lose my appetite and it changes what I think about this food. And now I have a big problem with the fact that I'm anxious about the eating you're not physically incapable of eating. So mine was bad.

Josh Fletcher 36:55

Yeah was bad because I was trying trying to lose weight wasting away uh and then you know what OCD's like I'm literally trying to lose I go to the gym I'd eat clean and one day I just stood on the scales and I weighed less than what I thought I'd weigh bang OCD no you're wasting away yeah you know and it taps into all stuff lost family members stuff like that you're wasting away and I and I was so bad I I I remember many many years ago this in the middle of OCD I ran to the shop I got loads of donuts and I started and I consumed about 3000 calories in a sitting uh and then I was compulsively testing to put eat calories to see if I could put on weight but the day after I was the same weight I was like and my brain obviously my rational brain isn't thinking here is the OCD brain my rational brain's like well yeah you're of course you're gonna be the same way that's not how weight gain happens it happens over time you know and it doesn't take into account water balance and stuff like that and stuff like that and obviously it really triggered me and then the game started to be I need to test the the wasting away am I wasting I need certainty that I'm not wasting away and then I'm like nah come on yeah you know look just just look man where's the other science now all right I've got to stop compulsing this is the OCD. Yep I hear you we have all kinds of eating suggestions here full rotisserie chicken full wheel of cheese wow I didn't see that one coming I've done that I've done that in bed at Christmas uh though I don't recommend it I have gotten those messages always makes me laugh I've gotten those 2 a.m UK messages I'm in bed eating half a pizza I'm like okay thanks for telling me thanks for sharing so cry for help um anyway so if you want to be part of the studio audience or just join the app where you can come along to the roundtables and workshops what is it 20 bucks or something a month and you get all the workshops you get two every every month you get all the access to the back ones you get to join this you share your wins on the community forums you get access to all sorts of things attention practice stuff and things all on the community app you can do um it's not necessary but you know if you want if you want to be part of a community that understands you can do um nothing hidden or or or there you know everything we share is on the podcast yep uh if you want to read a good book on health anxiety you can listen to the disordered guide to health anxiety by disordered press and you can get that on um the Amazon and if you want to follow us on social media you can uh everything's at disordered.fm uh come leave us a voice note send us an email leave us a message uh we'd love they did it anyways ask us questions and if not we'll just see you every Friday absolutely just a quick note you cannot listen to that book because we haven't recorded it yet but you can read it so yes soon that's cool yeah yeah guys we'll see you next Friday thanks for hanging out