What Would Non-Anxious You Do? (Episode 025)

SPEAKER_03 0:02

Uh a lot of the anxiety advice out there is to cut things out of what you're what you'd usually do so you can minimize and neutralize symptoms, which is something that we that we don't kind of promote.

SPEAKER_04 0:15

For all we know, this person misses her caffeinated coffee. And I'm gonna roll the dice. I'm gonna go back to what I used to love. I love not anxious you. What would not anxious you do is a good principle to follow or a good guideline, I think when you're not sure what to do.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

It's a good point of focus at a time where you feel lost and stuck, and you've suddenly changed your life and your behavior, then the amygdala's gonna remember that and go, oh wow, well, that feeling must be dangerous. You must do everything to avoid it. And so the antithesis of that is, no, I'm gonna do what non-anxious me would do.

SPEAKER_04 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 25 of the podcast entitled, What Would Non-Anxious You Do? I am Drew Linsalata. I'm a graduate student in clinical mental health counseling, a therapist in training in the United States, state of New York, and an author in a podcast on the topic of anxiety disorders.

SPEAKER_03 1:08

And I'm Joshua Fletcher, a psychotherapist specializing in anxiety disorders, based in the Manchester in the UK. Also previous sufferer, writer of books, and co-host of this wonderful podcast. Writer of books, singer of songs. I've heard you sing. Yeah, it's when I want to uh uh expose people to the amygdala again.

SPEAKER_04 1:33

Uh it's an experience, trust me. Um, anyway, so today we're gonna talk about what would non-anxious you do, which is something that since we met, I've heard you say. It's definitely a Josh phrase, and I dig it. What do you mean by the way?

SPEAKER_03 1:45

One of my golden rules. Yeah, one of my golden rules is what would non-anxious you be doing? Because obviously we can become quite inwards focused and obsessed about how we feel uh and fearful. Um, but you've got to remember, like, well, what would non-anxious you do? I think it's a good topic to talk about. It's always something to ask yourself when you're in the midst of the whirlpool of anxiety. Um, and we have some examples, don't we, of to kick off the episode. We love a did it anyway, sent through on disordered.fm, and here's a couple that we loved. Yeah, let's start with this one.

SPEAKER_04 2:24

It's a good illustration of non-anxious you. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Hey Josh and Drew. Um, I've been listening to you guys for a while, and um, I just wanted to kind of share a recovery win for me today. Um I've been dealing with panic attacks, OCD, choraphobia for months now, um, probably arguably three years. I just had another panic attack, um, one of my worst ones in a very long time. And instead of just kind of taking the rest of the day off and checking out, um I'm going back to work. Um, I work remotely, so that helps me a bit, but um, I consider this a huge win for me today, and not just letting myself just kind of sit around and uh do nothing about it. Just feeling really proud of this, and everything that you guys you know share about panic attacks and everything is super helpful, and I really think of those words a lot. So thanks, and I just want to share this win.

SPEAKER_03 3:23

Thank you. That was great, love it. Amazing doing what non-anxious you would do. Well, I'm gonna go back to work. I recognize what this is. Yep. Uh, and I'm gonna take it with me back into work. And I could just tell by the celebratory nature of that message that you know you you got through it, it didn't last forever. It's also great to have that outwards focus while while it's while it's kicked off.

SPEAKER_04 3:47

Yeah, and the lesson there is always the you know, what can I do while I'm sort of in the panic attack hangover, which is a thing, you know, you feel shaky and upset afterwards, and I'm taking it with me back to work. Well done. Very well done. Absolutely. Brilliant. Drew, I want another one. You want another one? You are demanding this morning, but that's okay. I got you covered. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

Yay. Hi, Josh and Dre. Um from England here in a sleepy little town called uh well, I won't tell you in town, but it's Somerset. Um, I just wanted to share a small win with you, even though I've done really, really big ones lately. Um, I had a full caffeine coffee this morning by accident, as normally I would stop myself because I worry it will make me too anxious and shaky. Um, instead of pouring it down the sink, I actually on purpose drank it. Um and I'm really, really happy. I'm in a really, really good mood anyway. Um, but I've struggled with anxiety on and off for about seven years now with panic disorder. Um, but I just wanted to tell people that this is the real thing, you have to flow through it. Um, and I manage to do things whilst feeling anxious. Um today is a good day. Um, and I'm feeling really, really proud, and I just wanted to thank you guys for your amazing work. So please keep doing what you're doing because it helps us. Thank you. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

Outstanding, outstanding. Um, I mean, if it's really common, um, there's some bad advice out there, isn't there? Like if you're anxious, cut out this, cut out all these things that you probably at one point used to enjoy doing. Yeah. Uh a lot of the anxiety advice out there is to cut things out of what you're what you'd usually do, um, so you can minimize and neutralize the symptoms, which is, you know, if you're a listener to this podcast, is is something that we that we don't kind of promote. Obviously, within reason, if you if you're drinking 12 cups of coffee a day and starting to see time, then then yeah, don't do that. But in general, well done. I love that. The intention to be like, oh, this could be caffeinated. Ah, there's an exposure, there's the willful tolerance. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 6:03

It's the attitude shift. We always come back to the attitude shift. Um, and that's a perfect example of non-anxious you. For all we know, this person misses her caffeinated coffee. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna roll the dice. I'm gonna go back to what I used to love.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

Who knows? I also love the little scream from the kid at the beginning as well. I could have edited that, but I didn't.

SPEAKER_04 6:21

So we're gonna those of you who are startled by that, I apologize. But uh whole budget here. We don't have a big editing staff, just me. Anyway, um, I I love non-anxious you. What would non-anxious you do is a good uh it's a good principle to follow or a good guideline. I think when you're not sure what to do, people get confused. Like, what am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to just sit with it? This is the magic, sit with it. We've did a sit with it episode. Am I supposed to just sit with it? Am I supposed to distract myself? Am I what am I supposed to do? Well, what would non-anxious you do is a really good answer to that question.

SPEAKER_03 6:57

It's a good kind of uh point of focus at a time where you feel lost and stuck. I mean, we know what it's like, don't we? I'm anxious, it feels frozen. Yep. My kind of cognitive brains kind of slowed down a bit because my threat response wants all the attention on whatever insert threat could be. And I always remind people, well, take a step back, you know, take sit on the metacognitive seat and go, right, what would non-anxious me be doing right now? For some people, if you've just been recently diagnosed or recently had panic attacks and you're stuck in the fear loop, it's easier to recall what you would do. Actually, last week, rather than sitting in here pacing and and waiting for anxiety and and avoiding things, this is actually the day I'd go to the gym, or this is the day I'd see a friend for a coffee. But a lot of anxious people, regardless of whatever their presentation is, may withdraw, may suddenly start changing their behavior and their routine. Remember, there's always uh something watching in your brain, and that is the amygdala. He's gonna press it. I might. Yeah, I'll press it. Amygdala. We had a listener, it was like, that's so frightening. Kind of is, yeah. Did I have to that scary? That's my default voice off mic as well. That's how I usually talk. This is my microphone voice. Um, but yeah, the amygdala's always kind of watching your behavior. So if you have had intense fear and then you've suddenly changed your life and your behavior to cater for that fear, then the amygdala's gonna remember that and go, Oh wow, well, that feeling must be dangerous. Those symptoms that you don't like must be dangerous, so you must do everything to avoid it. And so the antithesis of that is no, I'm gonna do what non-anxious me would do. Not forgetting though, the people that have been anxious for years, and I often hear this I don't know what non-anxious thing would do.

SPEAKER_04 9:08

I I don't remember what non-anxious, I was that, I struggled with that a little bit. What do I do now? I I don't remember. My full-time job was trying to not be anxious, so all of the old way to be, I kind of forgot.

SPEAKER_05 9:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

So yeah, it was really weird. And I used to obsess Google searching, trying to fix, trying to find the miracle thought, ruminating. What did yours look like?

SPEAKER_04 9:31

Mine was I always love when you talk about the miracle thought, which is such a new concept to me. It was literally just being completely focused on how I felt all the damn time until I accidentally got distracted, which was great. It would happen sometimes, and that was a little bit of relief. But otherwise, if I didn't accidentally get caught up in something else, I was just evaluating how I felt all day long, all day long. It was such a good time. And uh I didn't know what to do if I wasn't doing that. So it was just such a strange situation. Like, well, what do I do now? I don't know what to do if I'm not checking how I feel because I've I've lost that thing where I cared so much about how I felt that there was a big empty space there. But that was a little further down the road in recovery, I think. For people who are in the in the thick of it now, like I don't remember what non-anxious me would do. Well, non-anxious you would probably continue doing whatever it was you were doing when when you got triggered. That's a that's a reasonable rule of thumb.

SPEAKER_03 10:26

Yeah. Like going back to work, even though you want to withdraw and seek safety.

SPEAKER_04 10:32

Sure. Or like I'm gonna continue on in this conversation with my neighbor, even though I might not choose to be in a conversation with this neighbor because I don't like this person. But if non-anxious me was in a conversation with my neighbor and I got interrupted, uh, non-anxious me would just go back to the conversation and let it end naturally, wouldn't take any special evasive action. So that's a good sort of rule of thumb in terms of if you're not sure what non-anxious you would do, just keep doing what you were doing.

SPEAKER_03 10:57

Uh yeah, excellent, excellent. Yeah, uh, and that can be tricky, particularly when and this feeds nicely into the distraction episode that we did, which which I think is brilliant because it's about outwards focus. But if you're doing something quite sedentary and it's like watching a TV show that's semi-engaging, what you need to do is actually realize okay, right, non-anxious me was was already watching this show, and it's difficult now. There's adrenaline pumping and I'm feeling jittery and I want to get up and pace. But here's the thing committing your attention to that, and but whilst acknowledging, okay, I am anxious, so I'm I am gonna find it a bit more difficult to engage with this, but I'm gonna do it anyway because the more my attention is external, the more I don't compulsively body scan, body check, ruminate. This signals to my brain, hey, you know, that you are actually safe, it's okay. And I have to do that loads, you know, um, whether it's you know, watch yeah, sedentary activities like that. Yeah, um, yeah, it's harder than say, well, actually I'm out for a walk because it's a bit easier when you when you burning the adrenaline a bit quicker, but you just don't want to do it compulsively, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:15

You know, and when there's more what's the word I'm looking for here? There's a more outside input that you can look to on a walk or a drive, or you know, if you're interacting with some some task that requires some sort of dexterity, whatever it happens to be, I would struggle with that in conversations. So I would have to continue on in a conversation being completely derealized and just keep having the conversation, which was so awkward and not optimal, but beneficial in that situation. Well, non-anxious me would just keep having this conversation as best I can. And you know, there were times that I had to maybe, you know, excuse me, I had to ask somebody to repeat something because I would get distracted a little bit in my own head. But uh that was the the non-anxious me process looked like I'm just gonna keep going with this. I'm not gonna change course because of how I feel right now.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

Yeah, and so it happens at like a micro, and uh um and we've used these terms before micro-macro level. Yep, yeah. You know, you you can go back to work, non-anxious me would go back to work. But like when we talk about the white knuckling episode that we did, um, you know, non-anxious, you might go back to work, but anxious you might be clock watching, employing safety behaviors, stuff like that. Again, it doesn't matter if you manage to do the macro thing well done. Yeah, if you listen to the white knuckling episode that we did, it's about what things can we tweak here. Um, and I always bring it back to you know, what would non-anxious you be doing right now? It's okay. And uh for me, I it used to be I love music. Uh, it would be like I go to a gig, which is great, massive achievement, well done to me, particularly someone with um claustrophobia and stuff like that. I'd stand there at the gig. On a micro level, it would be, yeah, but I'm kind of scanning for the exits and kind of scanning for my safe person. I made sure I have my bottle of water just in case I felt my my mouth was too dry. Um but actually at a micro level, I'd be like, no, okay, I'm at the gig, but how what would non-anxious me do at this gig? Well, non-anxious me would actually like to be a bit closer to the music, be a bit more involved, you know, maybe have half a beer or something, you know, that kind of thing. Despite you know, the threat response saying, Yeah, but you could get anxious. Um, and that's really important. Obviously, that's an event, but you can apply it to things at home. Um, um, we were reading through the questions uh again that were sent through at disordered.fm. Thank you for logging on and um uh thanks for the people that have signed up to the mailing list and stuff. We'll send some out at some point. Um but uh there was uh a lot of this question, uh, and I'm just gonna throw it and spring it up on Drew now. Sure. What would non-anxious you do if you woke up at 3 a.m.?

SPEAKER_04 15:12

Oh, okay. Well, honestly, that was a common occurrence for me. So anxious me would completely engage in the fact that I'm awake, I can't go to sleep, I'm gonna feel terrible tomorrow. Am I panicking now? Is this a 3 a.m. heart attack? Could be, it's possible. What if this time I really am in trouble? Non-anxious me would like now if I wake up at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m., I'm annoyed. And then I go back to sleep. Get up at that time anyway. What weirdo. I know it's weird. If I wake up before I want to wake up, I get non-anxious me would go back to sleep. Now, now I can pretty quickly, and some some days I can't because I'm just human. But back then it was really hard to go back to sleep, but I would at least start to teach myself to at least try to make the effort. Okay, what if I lay here, relax my body, and focus on my breath and see if I can get out of my head and maybe I'm tired, I'll fall back asleep. And little by little I would begin to fall back asleep. I just stopped engaging in the state that I was in. It it felt super urgent, but I wouldn't engage in that state. Yeah, if that makes no sense. Yeah, even in the middle of the night. The only difference was the sun wasn't up. That's I started have to I I really had to treat it as non-anxious me would not think this is special because it's 3 a.m. He might be more annoyed because it's 3 a.m., but it doesn't make it more urgent because it's the middle of the night. That was good for me, too.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

Yeah, that's that's kind of that that's good advice. I think for me it was because I've had this too, and it would be okay, acknowledge the situation. I've you know, my threat response is is kicked off. For me to begin with, uh well, I I would apply, well, non-anxious people wake up in the middle of the night, non-anxious people struggle with sleep, or maybe they are anxious, but they're conventionally anxious, right? They're not worried about the state itself. Well, you know, and this is what my mum used to do. She like sometimes she just wake up at 2 a.m., can't sleep, and rather than lie there and ruminate and clock watch and all that, or worry about sleep. You know, again, we're gonna do a sleep episode soon and stuff like that. But like they would, well, my mum would just get up, go downstairs, make a hot drink, listen to the radio for a bit, knowing that that state is better than sitting there being on the cycle of worry and engaging her attention outwardsly. She'd even stick on the TV or something like that. Or for me, I I got to the point where I wouldn't even leave bed. I'd just pick up a book and start reading because I know, again, with the attention external, my brain would start to calm down. It would ground, and then I'd start to feel very tired again. Um, also, I helped is that I'll be like, well, if I don't sleep, I don't sleep, I'll still function.

SPEAKER_04 17:52

Yeah, that's which a tough call to make, but I think it's uh I love that you mentioned conventionally anxious people because sometimes when they hear people hear us say non, what would non-anxious you do? They think, well, somebody who has zero anxiety. No, no, no. We're not talking about what would perfectly calm, cool, and collected you do. What would a conventionally anxious person do? Meaning I'm not they're not anxious about being anxious, they're just anxious about whatever. I have a job interview tomorrow and I can't sleep because I'm really anxious. Okay, what would I do in that situation? Probably get up and read, like you said. I don't know, you know.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

Well, you will have those days because it's normal, it's part of the human experience. Exactly right. So you will be kept up by worries. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:28

I think the other thing that people sometimes get confused with is when when you hear Josh say, do what non-anxious you would do, it doesn't mean that you will feel non-anxious. Like you are anxious you in that moment. You're trying to approximate what non-anxious you would do. So there's that little bit of a back and forth between I am anxious me right now, I do care how I feel, but I'm trying to act as if I'm not. And so you're gonna go back and forth. And that's the micro thing. It's okay, you're gonna struggle. There's gonna be that, you know, back and forth between anxious you and non-anxious you. That's okay, that's normal. Expect that. That's supposed to happen. That's literally supposed to happen. And over time, non-anxious version of you starts to weigh out a little bit more, and that's the shift that happens over time, but not immediately. You don't choose to be non-anxious, can't do that. Yeah, so be careful about that.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

Yeah, it's part of it's part of that, definitely. Um, for those people uh that that go, well, I I forgot what non-anxious me would do. Sometimes it's even it's good to go back to basics, you know. Um in my practice, um, and I've done several years, it was just you know, get out, we get out a pen and paper or use the whiteboard and be like, right, let's write out your day. Let's do the macro stuff first. Sure. Macro stuff, bullet while I get up, I'd walk the dock. Then I'd read my book when I got in and have breakfast, and then I would go into town and do some shopping, and then I'd ring a family member or or whatever, these kind of things, and we'd write it out bit by bit, and we'd try that. You go away and do that, or okay, I did the macro stuff. Okay, let's break it down, let's put little bullet points under the macro stuff, let's do the micro stuff, you know, and to the point where you have this script because sometimes, and we know what anxiety is like, it can sweep you up, it can take you out of the day, it can take you out of your attention, it can take completely disengage you from things that you want to engage in. Um, but even that sense, uh at a very kind of you know consuming level, it's nice to have you screw. I know this is my plan for the day, and we literally do that. But oh what I don't know what I need to do now. Well, look at your script, right? We we even wrote there 2 30. I'm in the park and I'm going to shout at wildlife. Well, why aren't you shouting at wildlife? Uh don't shout at wildlife, you'll uh scared them, but you know. Um, yeah, it's it's it's a sense. Well, uh kind of in the park, but I was I was lingering when I go home. I've I've lost what I'm supposed to do. No. What would non-anxious you be doing right now? You know, actually, I'd be throwing a frisbee around, you know, or or I'd ring an old friend as I strolled around, just because I want to ring them, not not for safety, or not. I just yeah, you know, and and it's good to remind yourself of what the plan is, what the goal is.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

Yeah, that's a good way to move back toward non-anxious you too. And it at first it's gonna feel really awkward and forced and artificial and oh yeah, definitely. It's gonna feel weird. Yeah, no, nobody lives their life. Well, some people do, some people are schedulers, and that's fine. But I'm a big fan of doing that. I never thought of it in the context of non-anxious you, which is really great. Um, I'm a big fan of like the night before, decide your day the next day, because an anxious person will try to make up their day as they go along based on how they feel. And when you're under the gun and in a state of distress, we don't make good decisions. So the decision was already made. I look at my playbook for the day, and I always use the American football analogy. Like the coaching staff of an American football team spends a lot of time coming up with a playbook so they don't. Have to think on the fly in the heat of the moment, what should we do in this situation? They already know this situation when this situation happens, we run these three plays, and they do it. So use that. Yeah, it is it is there.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

Now you're probably thinking, Well, do I have to do this every day? Like, and no, you don't, because over time the brain gets used to your attention uh and and engaging and your behavior. Yep, coming out of the old routine, the old neuropathways start to tire, the new ones start to strengthen, and you'll find actually the planning gets a little less kind of intense. Start do it on the fly now. Um, like when I do talks in public speaking, I used to meticulously for days and weeks write down what I'd say, where I'd stand, what bullet point, this and that. Now I'll just, you know, someone asks me to do a talk, you know, because I practice doing it a lot, I'll be like, well, there's some bullet points down. I know what to talk about there, I know what to talk about there. And then it just it I less of it needs to go in. You don't need to do this, but if you've if you're at that stage where it's like, okay, I can kind of still I've got the remnants of non-anxious me that I can engage with it. You don't need to do this, but I'm saying in in situations for people that are like, no, I'm I'm consumed, my life is I'm anxious all day long. I've I don't know what to do and I'm lost. Highly recommend doing this.

SPEAKER_04 23:17

Sometimes you put in that plan if you're going to use that technique, which is kind of cool. You know, if you don't even some people will say, well, I don't even know what to put on my schedule then. If we're gonna schedule the day or give me some bullet points, but then I don't even know what to put there. Well, go backwards in time. What did you used to do? Those are good starting points too. For me, I had to go back to, well, what how what would I what how did I spend my day before this? What would I do? And I'd have to start doing those things again. And some things I discovered, oh, I don't really want to do that anymore. I don't like that anymore. It doesn't interest me anymore. But I they were fallbacks for me and they got me out of being engaged with my own head and you know, internally focused all the time. And it gave me the opportunity to like, okay, now I start to learn a little bit what new non-anxious me was into now because it changed. We change over time, and the recovery experience will change you, it just does. You can't not, you don't come out the same person. So that's probably a good point to make, too. You know, well, I want to try to act like non-anxious me. You will be a different non-anxious you, probably along some dimensions than you were before this all happened. Can't help it because people change no matter what happens, we change over time.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

Yeah, yeah. Also, there's no rule saying, Well, why don't you just put some pot luck things on there? Yeah, do something new. Totally. Yeah, or I remember thinking once that I wanted to do, I'll use an example from someone a while ago. I want to do salsa dancing. Well, then put that down. Oh no, I'm too anxious. Why not? Right, try it. Try it. It's a it's an exposure. You might meet some great people, you know, you might enjoy it, you might not. Who knows? Yeah, I think you said something really uh important there, Drew. It will feel awkward and clunky. Yeah, it did for a while. Yeah, it will feel awkward and clunky. And who's gonna capitalize on that, Drew? Oh, he's always here. It's Craig the critic. Because when you feel awkward and clunky and self-conscious, when you're anxious, what what kind of stuff is he gonna say?

SPEAKER_04 25:11

Oh, I used to for me, that voice was always like, This is not a real life. I used to say that. I used to think that's this isn't what this isn't a real life. Is this what I've been trying to get to? This this thing where I'm just sort of going through the motions to try stuff. I really had to really explain it. You're just faking it. Well you're gonna have just to fake it for the rest of your life. This is what I'm doing, like this is the rest of my life. And no, it wasn't. At first, it felt really weird, but it it was just to be able to loosen the laces and get some room for my feet to wiggle in a little bit, and then things started to happen naturally organically, you know. I don't know. Um, but yeah, I I used to question it all the time. This is no life, this is ridiculous. I'm a shell of my former self. I used to know what to do, I was very highly directed and motivated, and now I have to schedule trying stupid shit that I might not even like to do. Who the hell even am I? That's what I had, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

Yeah, yeah. And you've got to realize that that, you know, and if you're someone who who has that internal critic, you you must ignore you must ignore Craig doing his thing, expect it and ignore it. Even because yeah, it will feel clunky, you know, like Drew said before, he's like to have conversations while feeling to realize that people, and you're probably gonna think you can't even engage with this person. Again, we said this before in previous episodes of your parent, and you know, you're simulating playing with your kids and stuff like that, not because that's what non-anxious you would do. The critic will be there going, Well, you can't, you're faking that, you don't really want to hang out with your kids. Um, it's boring. Just ignore him. You're doing it because you made the choice to do something to help future you and other people benefit too.

SPEAKER_04 27:00

Yeah, I'm gonna act like a non-anxious person while I'm anxious. That's the point. The point is faking it because you can. Look, I can look, I can do that. This might not be what the rest of my life is gonna look like, but for now I can act this way. And look, I did it. It didn't drag me down. Yeah, really important, I think. It's funny because you know, now this was much closer to the tail end of my recovery when life was starting to open up again. But again, you don't see video because one day we'll post these videos. I don't know when that will be, but over my shoulder here as a Fender Stratocaster, I don't own these guitars and enjoy them if it wasn't for that process. And one day I remember thinking, I used to be a musician, I used to love that. Now that was a long time ago, but I said, I'm gonna let's try that. And I just stopped in a local music shop and I bought a cheap guitar and started to teach myself how to play the guitar. I didn't know if I was gonna like it, but I tried it. And and there you go. And now it's become actually part of my life. Not a good part of my life because I still suck, but you know, I enjoy sucking at least.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

Um we'll get you on, we'll challenge your Craig to Craig live one day. Yeah, I'll just drum attitude. You can you can play uh smoke on the water.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

Not no. If anybody wants to write a disordered theme song, here you go. Go ahead and and write it, and I'll see if I can play it, and Josh will sing along. How's that? Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 28:23

Yeah, we we had uh we had four listeners last week.

SPEAKER_04 28:26

Suddenly the podcast has been delisted on Apple.

SPEAKER_03 28:29

It was so reported so many times for distasteful music.

SPEAKER_04 28:35

You know, me just trying to get back to like what would a regular person do in a situation? I don't know, might learn to play the guitar. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

It's a rule of thumb, and it's something that you can bring yourself back to. I I remember like I used to be really be afraid of physical symptoms. So for ages I would, and it's something that my OCD latched on to uh at one point as well, in terms of I had this theme of OCD to do with deterioration. And I remember avoiding going to the gym and stuff and running and things, one because it you know it mimic can mimic the symptoms of anxiety, the pounding heart, the the air hunger, the sweating, etc., the muscle tension, muscle twisting, whatever, all of that stuff. Um and I remember, yeah, for a few times having to go and slowly just enjoying it more because actually non-anxious me would go play football. Yeah, you know, and don't get me wrong, I came back you know, three stone heavier and I was running around going, Wow, this is definitely an exposure, you know. Yeah, I just I just swiped at the ball and now I need a rest. But in general, yeah, that it's doing things like that. It was like, well, non-anxious me would go play football. I didn't wait to want to go play football, I just went with the belief that no, in there somewhere I do like playing football, and I'm gonna see if I can access that person again. And and and if it's not that, it's it's seeing friends, it's going for a hike, it's whatever your your jam is, go do it.

SPEAKER_04 30:12

And the the beauty part of that too is you know, we always hear things like value-driven, you know, value, value, value. You hear values a lot in the recovery discussion. And it and it matters, there's a reason why we use that word. Exposures are often artificial. We make them up, they're not a real part of life. We just find ways to intentionally trigger you that don't really mimic your life. But if you start to try to reconnect with the old you or not anxious you or just try things, then your exposures and your challenges start to be life. And those are the best kind.

unknown 30:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

Yeah, they because they have purpose behind them as opposed to I'm gonna drive three exits on the highway, which I would never do on a Tuesday, Tuesday afternoon for no reason. It's totally artificial. But if it's I'm gonna drive three exits on the highway so that I can get to guitar center and try this guitar that I might like, there's a purpose in it, and it takes on new meaning. That's such a good point, Drew.

SPEAKER_03 31:07

Again, it comes out with some good points now and then.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

Like every four episodes, I have a jet, so keep tuning.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Keep tuning, yeah. Yeah, uh, no, yet purpose to it as well. And when we're talking about exposures and things, that's such a good point. Like a lot of people, and again, it goes back to the attitude shift and stuff. Oh, I stood in the difficult place. Um, we spoke about it white knuckling, I did that. Put purpose, put life values into your plan of what non-anxious you would do. You know, maybe I've not, you know, I've not seen my dad for uh for a while. I'm gonna go visit him. You know, maybe actually I've not picked up the paintbrush and done anything for a while because you know, and and put purpose behind it, and then yes, you'll start to I'm gonna say assimilate to the life that you that you start to do, and you start carving it out, and you can do that. You've got to stop the the binary view of success. I must switch this off before I jump back into life. Do not do not do that.

SPEAKER_04 32:10

You know, when when I wrote it's so cool because I mean you've written books too. When I wrote The Anxious Truth, if you look in the Kindle edition of any of the books you've written, it'll show you the most highlighted parts of the book. And when I wrote The Anxious Truth, I wrote it at one point, recover, you know, life is recovery, but recovery is life. It's one of the most highlighted sections of the book. And that's true because people will think that we try to recover to live life, but really we start living life again to recover.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

Can I put that next to my live laugh love poster?

SPEAKER_04 32:39

You could totally put, I'm gonna I will embroider one for you.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

You can put it on a pillow with a little pixelated version of your face, yes, that's exactly right. Cross stitch, yeah, cross stitch, yeah, like an eight-bit version of it.

SPEAKER_04 32:53

Yeah, but that's non-HSU. Connecting to that is like, oh, I'm gonna start to live my life again as best I can because that will move me forward. So we're getting really philosophical here.

SPEAKER_03 33:03

No, but it's true, and and it's part of it. Like it's you it's waiting. Yeah, you know, it's waiting, and and and it reminds me actually, uh, I wanted to play this today. Um, only because there's a reference to Newcastle United. But yeah, if you want if you want you to be played on here, just reference Newcastle United. You'll be playing. It's automatic. You'll be playing. You'll be so excited. Yeah, no, it's a good and it's a good and have we got it. Yeah, so it's another did anyway. Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_04 33:30

Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Hi, uh, my name's Ryan. Feel free to to use my name. Uh recently uh I was really bad in public spaces, and I would often feel like I would get attacked or someone was looking to hurt me or something like that. Um, and it stirred a lot of agrophobia. Whereas the past couple of months I've I've gone on holiday, uh, which again I was anxious about, mainly scared of not sleeping. But again, like I went, um, didn't really sleep, but also didn't really care because I was having fun. And then came back from holiday and started playing football, and then started attending football matches, Newcastle United for Josh. Um, and then I also started uh Muay Thai. I've actually been doing that a while, but it was a lot, it was very on and off, and it was a lot of like, oh, I feel anxious, so like I'll just go to bed instead. Whereas I've since decided that no matter how I feel, I'm gonna go, and I've been doing that for all three months and absolutely loving it, so yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Well done. That's amazing. Can you hear the roar of hear the roar of the St. James's Park crowd? Yeah, absolutely that, Ryan.

SPEAKER_04 34:36

Newcastle United reference. Well done. Uh, it encapsulates what we've been talking about today, though, doesn't it, Drew? Uh it completely does. Going back to the thing that he used to like to do, like reconnecting with that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

But also new stuff. Yeah, he's doing Muay Thai. Not only has he kind of done his exposures and gone back and and enjoyed his holiday and gone back to what he used to like to do, he said, Oh, actually, I'm gonna I started doing Muay Thai. So not only you know is he gone to this one stage, he's uh used that confidence from his exposures to try something new, and he could probably now kick our asses.

SPEAKER_04 35:12

Probably. I can't even spell muay thai, so that's that's something, you know. Can you not? It's not even that hard. M-U-Y-T-H-E-Y?

SPEAKER_03 35:20

M-U-A-Y?

SPEAKER_04 35:21

M U A Y? You're embarrassing yourself now. Hold you know how to do it. Let's go host the podcast. I love this one. It's a really it was really excellent. He did a great job with it, and it's a good illustration. Trying something new and going back to the old things at the same time. Can't well done, Ryan. Good job, dude. So, should we go to a question? We're 35 minutes in. We'll wrap it up with a with a question from the audience. Um if you want to send us questions, you can always go to disordered.fm and you can send us voicemail, ask us questions that way. You can send us email, do it, did it anyways, get on our mailing list. So um let us take a question. I'm not gonna say the person's name because she I don't think she wants us to. I wanted to ask your thoughts and advice on something that's been happening to me recently. I've had intrusive thoughts for a while now. Sometimes they're really strong, and sometimes I can handle them fine. But recently, in the middle of the night, I'm sleeping and I suddenly wake up with impulses of acting on my intrusive thoughts and me fighting that impulse. I start shaking, I get nauseous, and I get worried that I may act on the impulse. I also notice that when I tell myself that I know I don't want to act on it, my brain will trick me into thinking that I am lying to myself and I actually do want to act on the urge. Any advice on what this could be and why it is happening? Good question.

SPEAKER_03 36:39

Good question. And again, one for the OCD crowd. I mean, this I'd be very confident to state that this is uh someone who lives with OCD uh and intrusive thoughts. Um not to self-promote too much, Drew, but uh if you do struggle with intrusive thoughts, I do have an ebook that I wrote that's in my Instagram bio. Awesome. Loads of stuff there um that you that you can go and have a look at. But I'll answer this, yeah. Um a lot of people with OCD have these things called like phantom urges or or OCD kind of testing impulses. You know, this is it. If if you have intrusive thoughts about you know jumping off a bridge, you know, and I've done this, and you you're walking across a bridge and suddenly like I put like one hand on the rail just to test, and then two. It's like, oh maybe I am doing it in a heightened state of alert. I'm gonna misinterpret that. If you have intrusive sexual thoughts and you suddenly like find that you're you're kind of testing that, it's because it's going against your own principles and morals. We I can tell what your morals and principles are because of the worry in the question. I'm worried this could be me. Well, that tells me that you don't want to do it, but you're misinterpreting these urges. Maybe it's a step towards something, you know. If it's harm OCD, maybe you've you know grabbed a pillow or sharp object or whatever, or you felt yourself moving towards it. You're doing this because you're testing something that utterly frightens you. People with OCD do not do these things. Of course, your OCD will tell you, well, what if I'm the exception? What if this is more than OCD? What if I'm secretly crazy or whatever? Um, safe bet say no, you know. Um, but in general, that's kind of what you're worried about. What I'm hearing in the question is I am worried that I might do these things. Uh these intrusive thoughts mean something more. Uh, and one of the lines I just do put in the ebook is intrusive thoughts thrive because they're the opposite of who you are. And we know it's anxiety because it's what if. And it always begins with what if. What if this is something more? Um, also, there's other things with OCD as well. If they're if it's sexual intrusive thoughts, you may have something called the groinal response, which not many people talk about, which is the mammalian part of our brain where no matter what kind of sexual thought you have, if you if it's projected in your face long enough and intense enough, you will have uh a groinal response to it. You know, it doesn't mean that it's true that you find this person or thing attractive, it's a very normal response. And so people who do struggle with intrusive thoughts, uh, whether they're violent, sexual, whatever. Um, again, with harm OCD, you know, if you're having intrusive thoughts about your partner and wanting to harm them, guess what? They are gonna like really annoy you at some point and be you are gonna get irritated with them. But this person will see that as evidence, right? You know, that they want to harm them. Loads of themes of OCD. We'll do some a proper series on OCD at some point. Um, because it's good to learn about it, and we'll get some experts on. But in general, and one more thing, sorry, Drew, I am ranting on here.

SPEAKER_04 39:53

It's all good stuff, man.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

Uh, one more point is that in the question you said, sometimes I'm able to kind of deal with sometimes I'm not. Well, that tells me that it's the a threat response problem. The intensity of your anxiety will amplify the importance of the thought that's come in. So if you're 10 out of 10 anxious, then you just get this video reel in your face of something really vivid. That's gonna feel way more real and intense and important than let's say if you're four out of ten anxious and you get a thought about I don't know, drowning Drew. So it's a bit like kind of what realize first, step away metacognitively, okay, I'm anxious, my threat response has gone off. Anything that that's gonna come in now is gonna feel important and real. I need to do my best to not do compulsions.

SPEAKER_04 40:47

Yeah, I think I'm so scared of this and so triggered by this, but it feels that it might be more true this time, or dangerous, right?

SPEAKER_03 40:56

Yeah, because it's literally our doubt response.

SPEAKER_04 40:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

You know, uh, you know, the OCD gets the you know, the name, the doubting disorder that's misused. Uh, I don't really use it, I just call it, you know, all anxiety is doubt. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, but in general, yeah, you you're gonna doubt because that's what your threat response is literally designed to do. This is my threat response. This is lying to me. A lot of OCD is craig the critic as well. Uh, and you know, you you've got this. Uh, make sure you kind of do some exposure response prevention therapy, find an ERP therapist.

SPEAKER_04 41:30

I think that there's also the use of the word impulse, maybe in the wrong context here. I have impulses. And I think in my personal experience, when I was struggling with those kind of things, in retrospect, I could see I did not have impulses to harm myself, but I would want to test to see if it was an impulse. I would have thoughts about it, and it was what if I do have an uncontrollable impulse? So you're not actually having the impulse because the impulse will compel you to act. You're just worried that you might be compelled to act, which is such a fine line, but it really matters.

SPEAKER_03 42:05

And super common with OCD, the phantom urges, phantom, you know, yeah, the little testy things. Oh, I feel like I'm moving towards it, I'm testing it, you know. Um, you know, what if I grab that knife and then you suddenly move towards the knife draw or whatever? That's super common. Doesn't mean you're gonna do it, you're just testing it. Um, and it doesn't mean that you're this, you know, this is an assurance for me. Having OCD and intrusive thoughts does not mean you are a morally reprehensible person.

SPEAKER_04 42:36

No, no, definitely not. Good answer. You can talk about that all day long. I listen all day long. I always learn something.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

It wasn't bad that was it actually. I was a bit like, oh I usually like stutter and what and I have my own little ticks, but I was like, Oh, I like talking about OCD.

SPEAKER_04 42:50

Answer to that. No, that was fine. I was happy to listen to you give it. So thank you for the question. It was a good question. Um, anyway, I guess we're good to go on the non-anxious you episode.

SPEAKER_03 42:59

Anything you what non-anxious you would do if you've got any did it anyways, go and uh send us a voicemail or send us a message on disordered.fm. Yep. If you don't follow us on social media, I'm anxietyjosh on Instagram and TikTok. And Drew is the anxious truth on Instagram.

SPEAKER_04 43:16

And yeah, the dot anxious.truth on Instagram. Uh the guy without the the guy without the periods in the name probably got more followers in the last three years. There was already somebody that has the anxious truth without the dots in it.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

Oh well, what an imposter. Uh yeah. Uh best of luck out there. Do what non-anxious you would do, and we'll catch you soon. Yeah, we'll see you in the next one. Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_04 43:42

Hey, it's Drew. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Disordered. Josh and I both hope that you're finding it helpful in some way. For more information about Josh or me or the Disordered Podcast, find us on the web at disordered.fm. That's disordered.fm. Hop on over and find links to our social media platforms, join our mailing list so we can let you know when new podcast episodes are available, and we'll send you easy ways to ask us questions and share your wins so we can answer questions on the air and share your successes with the community. And if you're listening to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any platform that lets you rate a review, do us a favor and leave us a five-star rating and maybe write a review if you're digging disordered. It really helps us out and we appreciate that. Thanks again for coming by, and we'll see you in the next episode.