The Threat Response (Episode 04)

SPEAKER_02 0:04

You must understand exactly what's happening, particularly with disordered anxiety, is that the threat response is anxiety, and recovery in a very simplified way is turning off that threat response.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

But what we really want is a more healthy functioning threat detection system that just becomes a warning system so that when you feel anxious, it's it it serves a purpose as opposed to you can't turn it off. I think people seem to think that they can just turn it off. You can't turn it off, you can turn it down.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

The reason, another reason I want to call this podcast disordered is that let's just get it back in order again.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

And I think in the end, the amygdala served its purpose because it kept us out of harm's way while still allowing us to go and find lunch as opposed to being lunch. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 004 entitled The Threat Response. I'm Drew Linzilata, a graduate student in clinical mental health counseling and a therapist in training in the United States, specifically in New York. With me as always is my co-host from across the pond, Joshua Fletcher. Hey Josh.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Hi there. How are you doing, Drew? Uh I'm I'm Josh. I'm a psychotherapist based in the UK. I specialize in anxiety disorders uh because I once had several anxiety disorders and I like talking about it and helping people to get to a good place. I'm having a lovely day today. How's it over in New York?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

In New York, it's still winter, which I'm a little bit over with now. I'm not gonna lie. I wish it was warmer today, but we'll get there.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

It's cold. Yeah, same. It's just snowing outside now, but um yeah. Well, today we're gonna talk about the threat response.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Yeah, what's the threat response, true? Well, the threat response is a thing that everybody needs because it keeps us alive. So it's an important part of being human. Um, it evolved. I I think it has all kinds of evolutionary imperatives to keep us safe and perpetuate the species. But the threat response is that part of your your brain, or it's that thing that your brain activates when it perceives that there's some sort of danger or threat. Yeah. Yeah, if you're under attack of some kind, it will sound alarms and mobilize all those different parts of your body.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Yeah. Yeah. And I would kind of get I would wager that the vast majority of people listening to this podcast would have heard of fight or flight or fight, flight, freeze, or fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. And they they've heard that description, you know, anxiety is this, uh, and they're probably thinking, yeah, but you know, I don't don't like it. Don't like feeling anxiety or the fight or flight, or whatever it is you want to call it. And why is mine going off all the time? I think this episode is super important because you must understand exactly what's happening, particularly with disordered anxiety, but this applies to conventional anxiety too, is that the threat response is anxiety, and recovery in a very simplified way is turning off that threat response. You know, so if you're someone who's anxious, you can't sit and watch TV or enjoy time with their children or concentrate at work or you avoid going places, you struggle with intrusive thoughts, you're obsessing about symptoms, your awareness is hyper-awareness of anxiety, the self, or threats around you. Maybe you're afraid of judgment or social anxiety, whatever. Turning off that threat response is is the way forward. Now, we're not going to turn it off completely. You know, we don't we don't we need it in our brain. It's what makes us the most powerful mammal predator. True. You know, this it we wouldn't have evolved without having a really kind of sensitive threat response. Yeah. Um, which goes against the kind of notion that anxiety is you know weakness, which actually it's not anxiety, our threat response is what's made us the most powerful predators this the planet has ever seen.

SPEAKER_01 4:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

But it would be nice if it would just turn off while we're trying to have our Sunday roast.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

It wouldn't be bad. Uh I might say instead of turn it off, turn it down, or uh the threat response has to become sometimes the threat, actual, literally threat response is warranted when there's actually real danger. But what we really want is is a more healthy functioning threat detection system that just becomes a warning system so that when you feel anxious, it's it it serves a purpose as opposed to you can't turn it off. I think people seem to think that they can just turn it off. You can't turn it off, you can turn it down, sort of remodulate it.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

Yeah, and you want it there. I get clients that often say, Oh, can you just take it out of my brain? I was like, No, because one, you die. Uh, but but two, like that threat response is part of things like excitement, joy, euphoria. Yeah, it releases the same chemicals that you get in in excitement. One of my favorite feelings ever, my favorite emotions is excitement, looking forward to something, probably more so than the event itself. Um, it's that knowing that I've got something fun coming up. It's really, really like um but the reason another reason why we call this podcast disorders is that let's just get it back in order again. We don't we need it, we just need it in order. We don't need it kicking off first thing in the morning, you know, when we feel that instant thud of dread when we wake up, or you know, when we're ruminating because we're afraid that we said something bad to someone or we think there's something we've got a brain tumor or whatever. Yeah. So yeah, that's learning about threat response, starting with our ancestors. Should we start with our ancestors? Because that's where it really mattered, didn't it?

SPEAKER_00 5:45

More than anything, yeah, and more than it does now, except we still have the same machinery that they had.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

So yeah, yeah, yeah. So in other to understand the threat response, um you've got to remember this word, you may have heard me say it. Drew off often mocks me for my use of this word, but like there's a part of your brain which is the beginning of the threat response, uh, called uh the amygdala. Amygdala. Um I was just waiting. Yeah, so the uh the amygdala is uh a cashew-sized part of our brain, and then it's split into two, and it's the fastest but dumbest part of our brain. Um I call my amygdala Drew.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Um so we very fast, but not that smart. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

And and and and it it's its whole purpose is to be the fastest because if you're in danger, it needs to kick off your threat response. So as soon as it senses any possibility of danger, acute danger, it will release adrenaline and cortisol, your blood pressure will go up, you'll start pumping around blood faster, you've got glucocortishoids that are released, your muscles tense up. All the blood is pushed to your uh major muscles, so you're mobilized, like Drew said, you know, you're mobilized to to fight or flight, you know, or or whatever, or even freeze. Um, and that's great, but it all starts with the amygdala. Now, here's some examples of the amygdala in everyday life. Even people with disorders don't have them. Uh Drew, have you ever had one of those um falling asleep kind of dreams where you're about to fall asleep and then you dream like you fall off a curb or something? Yeah, hypnick jerk. And then yeah, yeah, yeah. Hypnick jerk. Have you ever had one of those? Um, that's the amygdala, isn't it? Because it gets confused and thinks you're actually falling off a curve, so it jolts you up. Um, another example is when you are frightened, or someone jumps out and frightens you, or you're uh watching a scary movie or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

How about the old uh you're driving and somebody cuts in front of you and you almost get into an accident and you're okay for a second, and then then your heart starts pounding, you know. So yeah, that's you make the let work.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Yeah, is that was that something in the corner of my eye?

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:18

You know, um, yeah, and that's you make the let work, uh, that's examples that everyone can relate to. Um why was the amygdala helpful for our ancestors, Drew?

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Well, I mean, one of the most interesting quotes I ever heard on that was back in the day, it was certainly more important to find lunch than to be lunch, and there were threats, yeah. There were threats everywhere. And I think, you know, evolution doing its thing, the amygdala became really sensitive because, you know, we're not gonna, you know, our ancestors lived in a much more dangerous world where they were exposed and they had to fend for themselves and they did they weren't as safe as we are. And I think in the end, the amygdala served its purpose because it kept us out of harm's way while still allowing us to go and find lunch as opposed to being lunch. Uh, so you know, they needed it to stay alive. Otherwise, people would have done a lot of really dumb things or taking more risks than were probably necessary. And in the end, it's about perpetuating the species and adapting and, you know, people that had faster, quicker, more powerful threat responses probably survived over the people that had weak threat responses. And I think people ask all the time, like, why does it take so long to recover? Why does it take so long to learn those lessons and turn that down in your brain? Well, think about it from an evolutionary perspective. You want that response to be really easy to activate, but really hard to turn off. Because if it was easy to turn off, the people with easy-to-turn off threat responses probably died out thousands and thousands of years ago. They're not here anymore. Yeah, yeah, they sucked. Yeah, they were yeah, we made it. Congratulations. Like you're and your amygdala made it. Yeah, and we're here.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

Um yeah, your your anxious ancestors survive. Um, here's some ex here's some examples. So it's better to be wrong and alive than you know, um, lackadaisical and dead.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Uh so and that's the kind of modus operandi of the threat response of the amygdala. So picture your ancestors, maybe they're walking across the Serengeti or through the jungle, and they're chatting away. Ancestors are from Brooklyn.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

There was no jungle. Sorry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Yeah, okay, Julian. Oh, maybe yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see whether you're American. Proud American. All right, yeah. All right, okay. Um, and so yeah, pick picture ancestors, walking through the jungle, walking through Serengeti, um, and they're just having a chat about the latest episode of Disordered, and then suddenly what happens is that one of them has a sense of doubt. And here's the key word here: doubt. Doubt is the most powerful, most useful emotion to our ancestors because if you doubt your safety, you change your behavior. And people who are anxious now will relate to that, we'll come to that later. But our ancestors doubted their safety, so what would they do? In fact, if they're walking across the desert and suddenly one of them just has a overwhelmed by this feeling of doubt, what might they do? They might suddenly go, Oh, I feel doubt, I feel like something bad's gonna happen, which you can all relate to. But our ancestors will then look up and scan the horizon or look behind them, whatever, and and lo and behold, in the on the horizon, there's a pride alliance. Yeah. Now they've not seen you because they don't have the doubt mechanism as strong as we as we do. So suddenly my tribe has seen a pride alliance that would have easily made mints meat of us because we're not very good at fighting. Um, and so we can stop, we can plan, we can choose to go around them, we can choose to attack them when they're asleep, uh, and or we can just plan ahead.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Now that very doubt mechanism, that that threat response, alerted us to threat before the threat found us. Very similar to the Meerkat. So the Meerkat survived thousands of years because of just doing the very same thing, standing there and scanning. And so when people are like, Oh, anxiety's horrible, it's weakness, this, that, and that. No, it's the very same mechanism that's never evolved that has got the human race this far.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Yeah. And I I think one of the things that's, excuse me, a little bit difficult is in today. So now we have this big upper part of our brain, too, that we're fortunate to have. And then you have that dichotomy between the two. One is very primitive and simple and has only one job to do, and we'll do it at all costs. And then we have the other part of the brain which sees that and then tries to make meaning out of it within all the social constructs that we have now and and the lessons we learn when we're growing up. And so you have that fight that that back and forth between your amygdala and and the higher parts of your brain. We interpret anxiety then. We like, you know, our ancestors probably never interpreted it. It would be curious to see. It was we would never know this, but you know, where did Cro Magnum man develop anxiety disorders? I wonder. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Oh, if that's my dog behind, but I think straight up slapping a drink. Yeah, this streetly's walking along. Um, what's really interesting as well about that is that yeah, Drew, yes, you've got this, these, these extra layers of our brain, like uh our thinking brain. And this is fascinating. Have you ever tried to talk yourself down from anxiety? I know I did when I was young, uh when I was struggling, and Drew definitely has. And some of you at home might be like, well, you know, I repeat to myself reasoning, and you try to be rational and talk to your anxiety, talk to yourself. I mean, there is a role for that if you want to be compassionate with yourself, but in general, when you're trying to talk directly to the threat response, it isn't listening because there's no wiring there, right? So you have to remember this. It's only wired one way. The amygdala can send a signal to your brain, particularly a thinking brain, but your thinking brain cannot send one back. It's a one-way line. Yeah. So you can sit there and tell the amygdala to to turn off or whatnot. And if you're wondering why all these magic mantras and and and things are are trying to, oh, it won't turn off. I can try on everything. Um, it's because there's nowhere for that for that to go. The amygdala's not listening. It did, yeah. Um, yeah, and so it's um really important to remember. And that for me, learning that was really helpful. It's like, well, the only thing I can do to show my amygdala, well, to tell my amygdala to to switch off is to show it.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Yeah, it speaks experience. Yeah, it it only that that's interesting. It only it's like trying to communicate with with your friend and screaming into the phone, but your friend hasn't picked up the phone because it doesn't even have a phone. So you that's you cannot communicate with it that way. It only speaks experiences. That's it. So let me scan, let me scan, let me scan, let me see what I see. You know, oh, I think there's a problem here because my heartbeat uh elevated a little bit. Boom, let me sound the alarm, let me see what's going on. And if you show it, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, I I have to get away from this, I have to run, I have to call my safe person, I have to go to the hospital, then you're amygdalaes, okay, keep firing because we're in a threat situation here, clearly. But the only thing you can do is to show it. I know that you think I'm in danger right now, but I'm gonna show you that we're not. And that's the only way to do it, which is really hard, very difficult. And I like how you pointed out that self-talk could be important in being kind to yourself and framing that action. Oh, that's right. I know what I have to do now. Okay, go. Yes, yeah. But the constant this shall pass, I'm a warrior, I am strong, this is okay, it's just anxiety. No, if it doesn't work in the long run, it never does. Yeah. Well, I actually quite like this just anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Uh, that's a good frame. That's what I said to myself in recovery. Yeah, I just feel like, but I but using it like you said so importantly, why are you doing it? Am I saying it's just anxiety and expecting abricadabra in it and it goes away? Yeah, no, I say it's just anxiety. I don't need to change my behavior. In fact, it's just anxiety. I'm gonna do the opposite of what it wants me to do. Right. And we'll talk more about that later in these podcast episodes, yeah, but what you can do, particularly when we talk about exposures and stuff. But in general, kind of it's just remember that threat response is not a bad thing, it becomes very sensitized with due to a mixture of genetics, uh, traumatic events, stress, sure, and I believe unprocessed emotions and stuff. Um, it can just happen. It can just happen. Yeah, yeah, yeah um and that's fine, but what's great is that you can turn it off. I just want to give another example of the um ancestors as well, which is one that I use again in in this practice, is that you know, imagine you're walking past a cave, a dark cave entrance, and someone's told you, you know, there's a big bear in there, um, and someone else told you there isn't. Now your amygdala isn't interested in the guy who said there isn't. It's interesting in the guy who tells you there is, and there might be. So every day on your way to work or wherever it is you're going, you've got to walk past the entrance to this cave. Now your amygdala will suggest to you very strongly that as you're walking past the cave, what you're gonna do, you're gonna be looking at the entrance with your spear at the ready just in case. And you'll always come back to this phrase all the time, just in case always pops up. Yeah, but it's the spear at the ready, and you know what? You go to work 20, 30, 40 times, the bear's never you don't even ever hear it. But one day you do go, and lo and behold, uh that was my bear impression, uh, and it runs out at you and attacks you. But guess what? You're ready, you're there, spear at the ready, bang, you know, bears on the barbecue tonight. Because you were prepared, because your muscles and your fight and flight and the amygdala was kept reminding you that the entrance to this cave could be a danger, your behavior changed. Now, anxious recovery is there is no bear in that cave. I've walked in, Drew and I have walked into the cave and we've gone, listen, hey guys, the bear's gone. We've checked it head to that there's nothing there. Yeah. Now, have you got a hundred percent reassurance that there's no bear in that cave? No. Have you got 99% assurance? Yeah, probably. Can you ever get 100% reassurance that the bear's not in that cave? No. But you lean into this probability, what we said last episode, is that well, Drew and Josh says there's no bear in that cave. So do I need to keep creeping past it with a spear? Yeah. Do I need to keep using up this energy, giving it my focus? No. And recovery is just learning to ignore the cave. Just walk by you. Don't even give it a look.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

And I in that situation, yeah. You wind up in a situation where you can take our word for it, which you would like to, but you kind of can. But what we can do is to say, hey, listen, we have been in the cave, and there is really no bear there. And then you're gonna also have to walk in the cave. That will get you to that last part where you put down your spear and you're finally. But before this, you won't dare walk in the cave. You will just treat it as if there's a hungry bear. So people like us can tell you there's no bear, and you can use that to frame your new action. But at some point you'll have to, okay, I'm gonna really, I he, I'm afraid. I think there's a bear. I'll have to either stand my ground and wait for it to come and get me instead of running away from the cave, or I'll have to go into the cave and see what I can do. So I think that's really important, and that's part of it. I I want to touch for a second on the idea that when you experience those physiological sensations of the threat response, that interpreting it as something being broken, because it's not. There's nothing broken. And I think people sometimes get caught up in the whole, like, well, I have to try and manage my heartbeat, I have to try and manage my body temperature, I have to try and manage my like GI tract, I have to manage my whatever, my endocrine system, because clearly something is broken here, but it's not within the context of what's going on, a perceived threat that doesn't exist, the the the firing of the alert before a threat, out of order, disordered. There's nothing broken. Your body is doing exactly what it's designed to do, just at the wrong time.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

You are not broken, you're right. Yeah. When it comes to that, um Drew and I often have a chat about the word healing and things like that. Now, some people, if you want to use the word healing, particularly if you've been through some emotional turmoil and you want to heal from it, that that's cool, you know. But we tend to step away from that because the it kind of insinuates that you are broken in some way and you're not. We fully and passionately believe that when it comes to anxiety, you're not broken. You know, I know it feels like you're broken, we know it feels like you're broken because you suddenly feel very different from everyone around you. Suddenly your life doesn't feel like it used to or should be. And we're just to remind you that it's there's just so there's just Something going on that we can turn off, and this is this threat response. Yeah. And what you'll learn as well is that a lot of your behaviors usually, and this is no way accusatory, but what we learned that a lot of our behaviors were keeping us anxious and thanking the threat response. Now, what do you think I mean by thanking the threat response, Drew? Yeah, that what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 22:25

That's that whole like when your amygdala says jump and you do, it will keep telling you to jump. Um, you're you're essentially saying, Hey, thanks for firing the alarm. I'm going to agree with you, that was real danger. So please alert me again in an hour, or tomorrow, or two hours from now, or in 10 minutes. Please do it again. So it will. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Yeah, it will. I'm I remember one where like I was afraid to go to the the cinema, the movie theater. And I remember like I always had to sit on the NC just in case I had a panic attack. Now, but what first don't get me wrong, being compassionate, I'm glad I went to the movie theater. There was a time where I just couldn't go to the movie theater. But when I did start going, I started doing these micro avoidances. I'm well can't wait to do episodes of macro avoidance and micro avoidance. That'd be really fun. But in general, this is an example of me thanking my threat response that yeah, I went in, but my threat response is a bit quieter now. It's not telling me to completely avoid it saying, Oh, just in case you freak out or panic in the movie theater. So one day I went to the movie theater uh with my partner, and there were no NCs. I had to either sit in the middle or go home. And I was so scared, I was like, no, I'm gonna go home. So I thanked the threat response. I've my threat response suggested that middle seat is a lion, that middle seat is a cave, and don't go in there because it's a bet. You will you you will have harm. But in my brain and my thinking brain constructed it as you're gonna freak out, you're gonna have a heart attack, you're gonna have a panic attack, whatever. But I overcame that by one day going, well, doing the opposite. I purposely booked middle seats, yeah, because doubled down on it. Yeah, so actually the end seats were free. I was like, no, I'm gonna go and do sit in the in the middle seat, feel the art, but I've taught my brain, didn't say anything to myself, wasn't like, you know, you're strong, you're a warrior, all that stuff, you know, please turn off abracadabra, please omega be quiet. Um, I just sat there and willfully tolerated it. Yeah, and yeah, that I was watching the trailers, couldn't really concentrate. By the time the movie started, I was fine. Good to go. My my th my threat response turned off. Yeah, and it does for everyone because it's physiologically impossible for your body to maintain that level of fear and the adrenaline and the cortisol that comes part of the uh threat response. Now, I did speak to myself sometimes. What I usually just say to myself is just this is just adrenaline, this is just cortisol. My body and mind's doing exactly what it's supposed to. I don't need to give it focus.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Yeah. I would do the old uh my go-to was I've done this before. I've been here before. You know, we've been here before. You've done this. I would talk to it a little bit. Like you've done this to me before, and you never make good on the thread. So go ahead. You know, I mean that sounds very casual, but that's where I got to. I used to drive around with uh the doctor, uh, my doctor would give me a benzo, Xanax, 90, and a year later they would expire and I'd have 89 of them because I was stubborn and wouldn't take them. But I would drive around with them, and I drove around with them just in case for safety three years. Yeah, and just in case, Drew. Three years. Uh that I forgot they were even in the car. They baked, they froze, they were worthless at that point. But I still thought, just in case, and I think as you go, those just you peel those away.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

You peel those away, and you that's how you're there were your magic objects crutches. I had one. I had the uh yeah magic bottle of water. Yeah, the water. Just in case I like died from dehydration, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:10

Like instantaneous dehydration, desiccation.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Even even though I drank like three liters that morning. It didn't matter. Yeah, yeah. If I go for a short walk, I have to have my magic bottle of water.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

But I think in the end, like to get back to a good point that you made, all of these things that we that we did, and that I a lot of you listening are doing and being very brave doing, and we can appreciate that and commend you for that. You're not healing your threat response because it's not broken. You're teaching it. So every time when Josh sat in the middle seat and got really anxious through the trailers and then enjoyed the film, he taught he was teaching his his threat response. He wasn't healing it when in my view. And when I finally said I don't need these pells anymore, I threw them away and it didn't drive around with them anymore. That was another lesson. It was a final lesson or one of the end lessons that I had to teach my my threat response. It wasn't broken, I didn't need to heal it. I needed to teach it. That was copper chiming in.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

I I think it's really important as well. And if you're listening, because everyone, as we've covered, as a um their anxiety presents in different ways. But remember that no matter how your anxiety presents, it's always the threat response. So here's another whistle stop talk. There you go. If you're suffering from panic attacks and panic disorder, your threat response thinks that anxiety itself is dangerous. Anxiety itself is the line. If you're struggling with social anxiety, then your threat response thinks other people are the threat. Or their judgment is the threat. The criticism is the threat. If you're struggling with generalized anxiety, your threat response might just be on, but your thinking brain's trying to apportion reasons as to as to why it's on. So it's kind of looking in your environment, it's looking in your memories, it's looking at things that might are coming up, uh, and it will and it will you know cause you to ruminate. If you've got OCD, that intrusive thought, and you'll know which thought it is if you struggle with that intrusive thought, OCD, particularly for those that's pure O, um, that thought is the threat. You know, what if I harm my child? What if I don't love my partner? What if I eat this chemical? You know, what if I drive off a bridge? That thought has become the threat, you know, and so therefore we react to it, you know, we try to avoid it and we have all these behaviors, but remember those behaviors like me avoiding that middle seat just keeps reinforcing and thanking the amygdala for people with trauma PTSD, massive one, because that's literal threat. Yeah, so so you come, you've you've been literally threatened. Maybe you've seen something horrendous in a car accident, maybe you've witnessed someone's uh demise. Um, maybe you you know you've you've just gone through something pretty bad. And yeah, the amygdala remembers the the sights, the smells, the memories and thinks it's there. And a PTSD is quite similar to that in the sense that you need a probably a bit more intervention with a professional for PTSD, but in general, um it's it's the amygdala again, it is kicking off, you know, it's doing these things. And so remember, we invite you to please remember that it's always the threat response at the core of it. Because I don't know how many times you hear this tree, but here, but you know, how do I recover from my PTSD? Um, actually, no, that's not the wrong example, from my panic disorder, my OCD, my agoraphobia, my health anxiety, and my generalized anxiety. How am I supposed to recover from all five? It's like, well, it's the same response.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah, in the end, it's the same. One of the more popular episodes I ever did of The Anxious Truth is called All Your Fears Are Only One Fear. And it's it does speak to that. But people think, as we also hear it too, and I and we're gonna do questions in a minute, but and looking at the questions from Instagram today, they are very they're very much along this line. The lack of awareness that it's just a threat response. Just for these people asking the question, they want to know, well, what about when the threat response makes me feel short of breath? What about when it makes me think I'm gonna drive off the bridge? What about when it's all the same though? So Yeah. Yeah, and it and it's okay, and you can deal with it. That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

So you've got some questions, Drew. I always love the quote. We love answering your questions.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Yeah, so we will have uh shortly we will have because this is episode four, right? So by this time, we might by the time you hear this, we may have a mechanism already for actually having you submit questions audio too. We're gonna do that. You can send us voice messages.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

I've also got a really good did it anyway to read out later on.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Cool, let's do it. So um we have um, I asked my Instagram audience this morning if they wanted to ask us anything, and uh, there is a pile of questions, so let's pick one here. Let's pick this one, which um I kind of dig. Um, I like this one. This is how do you trust yourself and live again after a longer period of intense anxiety and fear? I I love this question because how do you trust yourself is a is a big part, I think, of the recovery process. There's the mechanics that we talk about, but then there's that that confidence or that trust that takes a long time to develop. That's a really good question. Yeah, it's a great question.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

First thing comes to mind for me is the kind of very kind of compassionate compassionate practice. Practice to trust yourself again. You know, the analogy, you know, you uh something that Drew and I hear like a lot is like I pushed myself, I forced myself. How about encourage yourself? Sure, better to see to to to see how well you can trust yourself again if you're going into pastures new and going into the unknown, see that as well, okay. Well, um this is this is something I'm developing right now. But are you gonna do it whilst criticizing yourself? Oh no, I can't do that. Then no, no point. Yeah, you can do it like inquisitive and be like, oh, okay, let's let's let's see how far I can trust myself here.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:59

Um, I think that's really important. I would agree. I would also point out, I think that that that trust is not something that you can just conjure up. It only comes after experiences. Confidence, you just can't feel confident. You have to do things and then learn to be confident. So I think that part of recovery where you really believe that you are better now, it really lags behind. It did for me, it does for almost everybody. Like, I'm doing all kinds of different stuff. I'm not I'm not the same place that I used to be, but I still don't totally trust it. So you just have to know that, like, well, I'm gonna have to just try it. And I'm and I'm gonna be a little scared, and I'm and I'm teaching myself that I can trust myself, and that comes after experiences.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

And our old friend Craig the Critic will start will stop you as well. He's always he'll be like, Yeah, it's Craig the Critic. I was loving it.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

I forgot I had him on the same track. Top quality, uh top quality production here, man. That's exactly right. This is a high budget operation.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

Craig the critic will tell you, you know, I you you won't get there. You can get there. You can only rely rely on that safe person, you can only exist in your own safe space. Yeah. So yeah, I mean that's that's how we'd answer that. Yeah. I've got a really good did it anyway if you want to hear it. I sure do. Yeah. Um hashtag did it anyway. I am not a fan of crowds. I get dizzy. Sometimes feel depersonalization when I'm around a lot of people, and I'm afraid of big bridges. Last night my family and I not only crossed a major water crossing bridge, but we went to a baseball game that had thousands of people. By the end of the night, I couldn't wait to get home and I closed my eyes on the bridge, but I did it anyway. Now, that's lovely.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

That's so good.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

That's so good. And guess what? The next time you go over that bridge, open your eyes. That's your next bit that you're gonna do now. Yeah, uh, I also hope that you went driving and showed the eyes. Wow, daredevil. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, but in general, um, no, that's really good. Bridges is what I hear a lot. Superb. Um compassion in that as well. Kind of, you know, I did it anyway and this and that. Uh, and keep encouraging yourself to do a bit a bit more. So, you know, I don't want to go over the bridge, you don't want to do that. Next time, yeah, open your eyes, take it in, do those things. But superb. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Brilliant one. Yeah, love it. Love that they recognize their achievement as opposed to like, oh yeah, but I but I had my eyes closed.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

No, yeah, Craig would be like, well, you have to close your eyes.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Yeah, that isn't real. You you blew it, man. Like, no, that's really great. Excellent one. Alrighty. Well, you hang on to the end of all these episodes. We'll always have questions and do it and uh did it anyways near the end. So it's worth hanging around. I think we're good. Yeah. Episode four in the books, yes. Yeah, nice one. I will catch you next time. Thanks for tuning in. What do we do next time? Should we tell them? Next, we have well, you know what? Let it be a surprise.

SPEAKER_02 34:49

Let it be a surprise, and that's code for we don't know yet. We don't know yet.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

We haven't decided which of which of the 10 topics is going to be the next one. Come back next week. We we promise it'll be good. And uh keep working on it, guys. We're cheering for you. So we got you. All right, we're out. Hey, it's Drew. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Disordered. Josh and I both hope that you're finding it helpful in some way. For more information about Josh or me or the Disordered Podcast, find us on the web at disordered.fm. That's disordered.fm. Pop on over and find links to our social media platforms, join our mailing list so we can let you know when new podcast episodes are available, and we'll send you easy ways to ask us questions and share your wins so we can answer questions on the air and share your successes with the community. And if you're listening to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any platform that lets you rate a review, do us a favor and leave us a five-star rating and maybe write a review if you're digging disordered. It really helps us out and we appreciate that. Thanks again for coming by, and we'll see you in the next episode.