The Golden Rules of Anxiety Recovery and Desensitization (Episode 143)

SPEAKER_03 0:02

No matter what your anxiety is, do what non-anxious you would do in brackets whilst anxious. Don't make anxiety the most important thing in the room.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

If it is at the top of the decision-making tree, how do I feel? Then you are much less likely to do what non-anxious you might do.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

No, don't get me wrong, you're gonna be checking on your anxiety. You're gonna check in on how you feel. That's automatic, that's okay. But notice that and bring it back to what do I want to be more important than?

SPEAKER_02 0:27

You cannot say, I'll do what non-anxious me would do, and let me see if I can make something else more important to me, attached maybe to my values, what matters more to me or leads me toward recovery or desensitization. If you also are somehow hanging on to, but it feels so bad. I'm gonna have to at least consider that trying so hard to control this it gets all of my attention and it governs what I do isn't working for me. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 143. Today we're gonna talk about the golden rules of anxiety, and it's gonna be a good one. So stay tuned. I am Drew Linsolata. I am one half of Disordered. I'm a therapist that specializes in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders, practicing in New York. Uh four-time author on this topic, podcaster, psychoeducator, former sufferer of the stuff that we talk about on Disordered, but better now. Thank you very much. And uh yeah, I'm joined as always from across the pond by Hi, my name's Josh.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

That's all you're gonna get. I don't need to wax on about myself and my achievements like my co-host, just Josh.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Why is that so funny to me?

SPEAKER_03 1:32

Uh I'm a therapist um and author based in the Manchester in the UK. And today I'm gonna talk about the golden rules of anxiety desensitization. Any one of my clients listening or previous clients, well, probably not listening because you're probably cracking on and doing stuff. Um, but if you have checked in, we'll know that I always bang on about the two golden rules of anxiety desensitization. I used to say the two rules of anxiety recovery, but I, like I said in previous episode, have completely erased that word from my lexicon. I think the more and more I think about that word, the more it's not good, unconsciously as well, to even have that, particularly if you're someone who chases absolutism, perfection, and finding a singularity. No, all I'm not in a business where all emotions are welcome. Um so yeah, we're desensitizing ourselves uh with the two golden rules. I'm gonna just say them and then we're gonna apply them this episode, Drew, if you'd like it in almost every context. So you try and find a flaw in it, which would be cool, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Oh, this is like a game show.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

Okay, like a game show, yeah, yeah. That's what we're gonna do. So if you're no matter what your anxiety is, if you have OCD, if you have panic disorder, if you have agoraphobia, if you have any kind of anxiety, sort of health anxiety, all that, then what we're gonna do is apply these golden rules. If you're anxious and you're stuck in a cycle and you're doing that and you're feeling a bit stuck and frustrated, and am I doing it right? If you're one of those person people, then what will be happen is you're not following the golden rules. Golden rule number one is something that we've said in the early episodes, and that is do what non-anxious you would do in brackets whilst anxious. Okay, that's great. People can do that. I did it. I I went, I went to be anxious, I got on the train, you know, I drove three hours at a well done, great, great, great, really good progress. We can do that's usually the first rule. Golden rule number two is don't make anxiety the most important thing in the room. Now I love the second golden rule because it's not saying accept or get or be with it, or even am I hero, Dr. Claire Weeks, float, or whatever. It's don't make it the most important thing in the room. It's not get rid of it, it's not expect it to go away, it's not do a technique and get rid of it. It's just it's in the room, that's okay, but it doesn't have to be the most important thing. And this particularly applies to people who struggle with, but how what do I do? How do I get rid of it? What am I doing? How am I doing acceptance? But what you're actually doing there is you're making anxiety the most important thing in the room. Yeah, if you're managing to do what non-anxious you is doing, whilst simultaneously not acknowledging anxiety is there, but not making it the most important thing in the room, you do the optimum brain rewiring and desensitizing, whether it's an OCD theme, whether it's fear of fear, whether it's somatic obsession, whether it's constantly checking in on how you feel, whether it's measuring, and it applies in almost every context. And some people who say, Well, I'm 80% recovered, 90% recovered. Well, you're still even that sentence implies that you've not doing the second golden rule. I'm 90% recovered. And with all respect, I would be like, it doesn't matter. It's not the most important thing in the room, you know. Oh, how do you know that? Yeah, yeah. How are you measuring that? Yeah, how why are you measuring it? It doesn't matter, you know? Yeah. Um, don't get me wrong, you can measure it from uh when you reflect on on your progress, but in the moment, when we're anxious, it doesn't matter. So yeah, they're the two golden rules. Do what non-anxious you would do whilst anxious. Golden rule number two don't make anxiety the most important thing in the room. It's allowed to be in the room, but don't make it the most important thing.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Discuss. Discuss. They're pretty good. I did not know. I mean, I had clearly have some idea what your golden rules might be, but I didn't know it would be those two. I didn't know you were gonna put those at the top of the Pantheon. But they're I I can't really argue with them. They're pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Rule three is don't wear double denim.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Oh, that's a really good rule. Rule four is the first rule of disordered is do not talk about disordered. We're just gonna keep adding rules. There's not two rules, they're like 50 today. Uh double denim. You mean like a denim shirt and a denim vest?

SPEAKER_03 6:13

Or denim jeans and a denim jacket. No, it's a bad unless they're two different shades.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Anyway, um, okay, these are solid rules. Let me think about this. Do what non-anxious me would do. I'm willing to be wrong on this. No, no, I think they're really good because I mean, as always, you have to remember that the way it will show up for you is going to change from day to day, minute by minute, like the context is going to change. But nonetheless, it's still well, do what non-anxious me would do. Let me think about what people might say to respond to that. Okay, but I don't know. I don't know it. But how am I supposed to, you know what they would do? And it feels both rules, I think. But what about when it feels like you're about to die? But what about when it feels so horrible, it's like hell? How am I supposed to do what non-anxious me would do? And I think that speaks to both of those rules. Like no, I must make it the most important thing in the world because what about when it feels so bad, which means I must factor it into my decision-making process. It does have to be the top of the decision-making tree, and therefore it will impact what I do. If it is at the top of the decision-making tree, how do I feel? Then you are much less likely to do what non-anxious you might do. But I would modify non-anxious me. Some context it would be do what you what do what's most important to you while you're anxious, which you already kind of said. But I don't non-anxious you, but I am anxious. People will say, but I am anxious. It feels terrible. Okay, fair enough. So then do what matters more.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

Yeah. This is what to which I would say is if you're really, really anxious, where's your attention? And your attention is still in your control. It's not entirely in your control, but it's mostly in your control, and you use that control to show the brain and the amygdala. Amygdala. I got it right. Yeah. That listen, you're here, so that's my willful tolerance, but I'm showing you that this isn't the most important thing in the room. But if you're someone who sits there and completely locks in, no, don't get me wrong, you're gonna be checking on your anxiety, you're gonna check in on how you feel. That's automatic, that's okay. But notice that and bring it back to no, what's more important? What do I want to be more important than this? Some people know it is. I've decided that is the most important thing in the room. You know, I used to do this years ago. No, the how I feel, the terror, the pounding heart, the dissociation, the DPDR, the intrusive thought, the fear of insanity, the prospect of going crazy is way more important to me. And doing something like washing the dishes is not. Yeah. But one day with that attitude shift, the intentionality, decided, well, actually, I do want to be someone that can do things regardless of how I feel. And so therefore, non-anxious me might wash the dishes whilst anxious, which I did, which is one of my early exposures. Or, like you say, get up and brush my teeth. Yeah? Yeah. Yes, I can't, I'm not stopping the feelings, but non-anxious me is brushing my teeth whilst anxious. Great. Me brushing my teeth and going through that ritual or washing the dishes, or if you're getting your kids ready, or you're going for a walk, you're not making that horrible feeling the most important thing in the room. Are you trying to alter it? Are you trying to change it? You're trying to no, you're allowing it to be there. Yeah. It's just not the most important thing in the room, which by proxy means you're dropping resistance. You're allowing it to be there, but it's just not the most important thing. I don't like it, but it's not the most important thing in the room. It's like going to a restaurant. You can either choose to tune in to the annoying conversation in the corner with the really loud guy, and he's shouting about his favorite football team or whatever. You can tune in and get annoyed by that, or you can make the person you're with the most important thing in the room with your attention, with your with your intentionality, and you can actually tune that really annoying guy out. Yeah, I can do that with almost anything, unless it's people eating popcorn at the movie theater. I really struggle to tune out of that. It's really annoying.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

Well, okay. I mean, it I these is a really good discussion because I think the biggest obstacle I I would almost wrap these two golden rules in a in a this or that context, which is acceptance or control. Pick one. Can't have both. So if you're going to say, I must try to exert control, you don't understand. I must control, I must get away from it. That's control. I must stop it. I must mediate it. I must modulate it. I must regulate it. I must prevent it. Those are control strategies, which are usually people's first stop. I understand why we try them first. But you cannot say, I'll do what non-anxious me would do, and let me see if I can make something else more important to me, attached maybe to my values, what matters more to me or leads me toward recovery or desensitization, if you also are somehow hanging on to but but it feels so bad. But but it doesn't feel safe to give something else my attention. I know. So like before we ever get to these two golden rules, there's a reckoning, I believe, that I think both of us had to come to. And anybody that ever uh achieves desensitization or gets their life back has to come to, which is I gotta, I'm gonna have to at least consider that trying so hard to control this, which is it gets all of my attention and it governs what I do, isn't working for me. If it is, great, then I guess keep going that way.

SPEAKER_03 11:50

But and we still have agency though. Even when we're anxious. So you will sometimes want to wrestle with a I certainly did. There's no per none of my exposures were perfect. Yep. You know, but there's always agency and the reminder of and I always remind you know clients and people of this. Like, step one is be anxious. You can only rewire your brain when you're anxious, when you're activated, when you're you know, so that's cool. So when people are like, but this feeling I don't like, well, that's great. Step one. You have agency and control now, and we try and we practice and we remind ourselves, and I'm gonna keep using that word intentionality. My intention, my goal here is to turn this off by showing it it's not important. Now, if I sit there, lock in, go inwards, fight, resist, do multitude of compulsions, yeah, then it is the most important thing in the room. But if I've reduced my compulsions, and I only do a f a couple, but I'm really trying compassionately, and I'm not listening to Craig the Critic, and I'm like, no, I've relegated this from number one to the fourth most important thing in the room. Whilst anxious, and I always put that brackets, whilst anxious, wonders happen, and you start to get those bigger windows of feeling desensitized. Now, don't get me wrong, we're creatures of habit when we've been repeating compulsions and behaviors over and over again, particularly in response to an emotional trigger, might fall back into those, but I always tell people remind yourself, particularly with the OCD people, remind yourself of what the goal is when you're triggered. And that's what I always do. And it's something that I apply to myself as well. It's like, hold on, I'm a bit lost, I'm a bit triggered, my thoughts are going a thousand miles an hour, I've got air hunger, I'm dizzy, I feel like there's a gun to my head, I feel really scared. Right, what do I need to do now? Right, rule one do what non-anxious me would do whilst anxious. Okay, well, I'm anxious, great. What would non-anxious me be doing right now? Well, you know what? It is the afternoon. I might just go for a little walk. Okay, brilliant. Oh, brilliant, that's good. I might do. I don't have certainty, I just might do that. Or might fold the laundry. I don't know. I'll do something like that. And then, rule number two is while I'm folding the laundry, I don't want this feeling to be the most important thing. So I'm gonna intentionally try to not make it the most important thing. So I would be like, how does my laundry feel? How does it smell? What's the new detergent like? What am I gonna do later on? I'm gonna put some music on, not to compulsively avoid, but non-anxious me likes listening to music. And have you found as well, Drew, the amount of people that are sensitized stop doing what they would usually have done.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

Yeah, like you're like, why why why would you not put music on? You used to like music, why have you stopped? You know, and doing things like that. And yeah, okay, actually, I'm behaving, and this is a phrase that I've stolen from you, Drew. Behave how you want to feel. Well, yeah, I will sing and whistle along and fold my laundry. I'm not resisting and getting rid. I'm just showing my brain, and anxiety starts to come down and down and down. Our confidence goes up, we can ride or float through it, willfully tolerate, surrender, whatever. Yeah, and you start to get to the whether it's an intrusive thought about violence or whether it's just you afraid of panic attacks.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

It's interesting. I had somebody say to me last week, um, talking about something that is important to this person, like an invitation to interact with a family member that they're close to. And in this moment, their response to that was very clear, and I appreciate the insight. No, I can't. I can't interact with you now, family member that I love so much. I have to keep my eye, I'm keeping an eye on this threat. So this person was had enough insight and has progressed far enough to know that that's what they were doing. And that's what anxious people do because it would seem the right thing to do. Like, no, I have to watch this. I have to keep my eye on this. The safe move is to keep my eye on this. And what happens over time, you I think you made a really good point, which was do what non-anxious me would do. I don't know anymore because I have decided that it's not right to read a book. It is no longer right to call a friend. It is no longer right to walk my dog or go to the gym or cook dinner. The safer move is to keep my eye, give all my attention, rule number two to how I feel all the time. That's clearly the safer move. Yeah. I I I would, you know, before you so I I said my little thing about deciding I have to have to try acceptance rather than control. But if you're gonna do that, like, but I don't understand how am I supposed to just decide to do something like walk my dog when I'm convinced that I'm like three seconds away from a psychotic break. Well, this is why we use things like mindful awareness, mindful acceptance. Like, what's actually happening right now? I'm having an experience that I hate is scaring the shit out of me right now. That's what's actually happening. Like I'm worried right now. Okay, well, what's next? What can I do now? Do I have a choice? And you know what the win is on the attention side? The golden rule number two is every time it gets your attention again and it comes up to the top of the list, top of the decision-making tree, you could see that and move your attention back to something else. That is the win. Yes, it's better than it didn't go away. It's the rep, it's the it's the win.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

So that's why we use and it will float up to the top again and just be like, uh no, go back down. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

That's what it gets paid to do. Like, no, no, no, come back to this, please, says your anxiety or your fear or your etc. Of course it does. And like, no, no, no, I hear you. I hear you. I'm going back over here, but you can, I think that that come to Jesus moment where like, am I going to can try to control or accept? I'm going to have to at least consider that I actually do have agency now.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

So always have agency with it.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

And I think a lot of people get this confused too. And it's funny, yesterday I posted on Instagram about like anxious parenting or what happens, like, oh, I can't allow, you know, I can't allow myself to be anxious around my kids. And many people thought, yeah, but what about like it scares my kids because you know I go to the hospital or I wind up in the fetal position and I'm screaming and I'm crying, or I have to pull it my skin. Okay, I understand, but that's it's not the anxiety that did that. That's your response to it.

SPEAKER_03 18:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

And you do have some agency there.

SPEAKER_03 18:12

And I've I've ended up in AE with panic attacks. Yeah, 100%. If you would have told me now, as someone who's like you, been there and been where we are now, looking back, I got better because of those golden rules. And a little, if I were to make a third golden rule, it's learn to find your inner compassion.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Yeah, I think you have to be brave and kind to yourself. Like we can't forget that. There's bravery here. If you decide to not call that ambulance or or scream for help from your, you know, your safe person, you've made a brave choice there. Oh, yeah. And maybe feel so good, and maybe the dating can go exactly the way you wanted it to. It's not optimal, but be nice to yourself because you're not going to get optimal on demand. That's control attempt, right?

SPEAKER_03 18:54

So I I wonder if anyone's done applied these golden rules unconsciously in a good in a did-it-anyway.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Seemingly they have, so let's listen to one right now.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name's Hannah, and I'm from Surrey in the UK. You can use my name. I've a sort of did it anyway and a question in one for you today. I've been struggling with intrusive thoughts and OCD for a few years now, all relating to one specific trigger. I've been receiving CBT while also learning a lot through your podcast. It's been a really rough ride so far, but I'm seeing improvement, so I'm obviously doing something right. Most recently, some of my CBT homework has been a bit of exposure, which I've not done before, and I had a great opportunity this week with a journey into London for an all-company work event that I've organized. I was nervous about the journey and anxious of the public transport, but I did it anyway and enjoyed the journey whilst looking out the window and listening to my music. During the event, I also had to speak on stage in front of 300 of my colleagues in the room and another 200 who were watching the live stream, which I felt really anxious about. I was panicking while we were setting up. I skipped my lunch because I felt so sick and I was shaking with the anticipation, but somehow I didn't let the physical symptoms stop me, or the worry and rumination of looking a fool or making a mistake prevent me from doing it. I actually got up there, did it, and received nothing but praise from my colleagues about how confident I came across, how engaged the room was, and how I was really clear in my communication. I was so tough that I'd done that anyway, faced something that made me anxious whilst actually feeling anxious and willfully tolerating the anxiety and basically not asking my boss to take over because I was too scared. So this is kind of where my question comes in. Why can't I seem to do the same thing with this one other specific trigger I've been struggling with for years? I've now proven evidence to myself that I can do the scary things and my worst fears are unlikely to come true and I can cope, but for some reason, this one thing is a complete no-fly zone. Any advice you have would be really appreciated. I love what you do. Your advice and approach has been invaluable to me over the last few years in understanding the way my mind works. Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Hannah crushed that, man.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

Well done, Hannah. That was absolutely brilliant. Um, yeah, I hope you're proud of yourself and don't move the goalposts so quickly. Savor that moment for a bit. Don't need to go back to the grind of how can I fix and perfect myself this time. Um, golden rules, come on, give us a post-football analysis.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

Yeah, let me get my pen because they always have a pen in their hands when they do that. Yeah, they never use the pen either. I know. You never see them write. What are they gonna write? They're on TV. You're not there to write a journal entry. I think um Hannah did so do what non-anxious you would do. Uh I would give the whoops, sorry. Um I would be giving yourself background music. Giving myself background music. I need to be very dramatic in my analysis. Yes. Um, uh, you know, I'm gonna do what non-anxious media would do, which is I would give this talk. I mean, I'm nervous about it. Maybe Hannah's not a great public speaker. She fears it, which many, many people do, but I'm do that anyway, because that's what my job is, and that's I want to do the the deal here. I don't want to ask my boss to take over.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

And in brackets, do what non anxious you. Would do whilst anxious.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

That's exactly right. She was shaking, she was worried, she was feeling all the things, and she decided, well, this is what I would do if I didn't feel this way, so I'ma do this. What do you think the second one was? Where was the attention part?

SPEAKER_03 22:12

So the second one is don't make anxiety the most important thing in the room. Well, actually, no, the most important thing in the room was giving a talk, talking to colleagues, giving a presentation to live stream people, doing work, enjoying it. Both golden rules in that moment, which was brilliant. That's probably why he felt great. The key there wasn't to get rid of anxiety. It was completely okay to be nervous before a talk. It's completely okay. I know what that's like. If I've got a big talk, I can't eat anything before I end up like, oh my god, that's really nervous. But it's not the most important thing in the room to me. The most important thing in the room is, have I remembered what I'm saying? You know, do I have I got soup on down my shirt? You know, that's more important to me. You know. And then we did that. And interestingly though, afterwards, after the amazing achievement, I would look at it from the lens of, well, then if you're looking at the uh at these golden rules, well, suddenly anxiety's come the most important thing in the room again. All of those symptoms and feelings and sick and catastrophic thoughts to do with the talk that was really brave. Suddenly it's floated to the top. Now I'm home. Now I'm ruminating. Now I'm trying to perfect. And we have a history of OCD and stuff. It's very difficult to exist without something in the worry box. And so naturally, anxiety can become the most important thing in the room. And we start to fail at those rules. Non-anxious me wouldn't sit here and go inwards and think about these things. I may watch TV. Like we get an alarming amount of emails of people watching the Real Housewives series. And it's like honestly, in the inbox studies, type in Real Housewives. There's like so many. There are a lot, that is true. Yeah. And um and doing that, and I'll just consider reflect. Actually, hold on. Why is that different? Like, surely, rationally, if I'm gonna be anxious and I'll be panicky and do stuff like that, that would have happened in London during the talk. No. Then why have I got more of a beef here? Well, look at your attention. What are you prioritizing? What's the most important thing in the room? Oh, that what if intrusive thought that I've been struggling with?

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yeah, and I think like, you know, so Hannah shows herself like I can do what non-anxious me will do, and I can make something else just as important, if not more, than how I feel. Good job. But not here. And I think, you know, I talked about that earlier. Before you can even apply these rules, you're gonna have to come to some agreement that, oh, maybe the idea that I'm only okay if I don't feel or if there's some condition or control, you're gonna have to recognize what's happening here. So I like to talk about what if versus even if. So in this situation, Hannah learned, even if I'm I'm anxious and shaky and panicky, I can give a talk and do a really good job and like get, you know, the admiration of my colleagues. But then you switch back to, but what if again? Like the evidence that you can do it doesn't matter because you are operating on control, which is what if this thing goes wrong? Back to the content instead of the process. So there is no no-fly zone. The no-fly zone just means this one scares me more than the other one. And so therefore, I will maintain the what if stance instead of the even if stance, which I need to have to apply these two rules. I need to embrace even if. Yeah. Otherwise, otherwise I'm screwed. I'm in control versus acceptance mode and I can't move forward.

SPEAKER_03 25:41

And have you noticed when people like when people explain like about how to do an exposure, I use these rules for them then too. Because some people get frustrated with exposure. I get up, I do my exposures, I'm still anxious. Yeah, okay. Are you doing the exposures with this in mind? So when you do your exposure, no, I went into town and you know, there's two, there's two types of exposure. I can go into town and just lock in and hyper focus on how I feel, or I can go into town and practice with my attention external, go clove shopping, because that's what non-anxious me might do. And I'm not making it's the most important thing in the room. And I really enjoyed my trip into town. But then when I get back, I fall into the old habits. Is it there? Is it gone? How's it home? And we start to make it the most important thing in the room.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

You know, I think it's important that it's the experience after. I'm sorry, it's up to the lobby you're meant.

SPEAKER_03 26:34

No, no, yeah. No, I've been waxing lyrical on this.

SPEAKER_02 26:37

No, I I think, and you're right. So if you're going to accept the challenge, because life throws it at you or intentionally doing exposure, and you know, my practice, we always have like a little pre-flight checklist. Before you decide to do this exposure, let's stop for a second. Tell me why you're doing this. I'll often say to a client when we do it in session, why are you doing this? What are you trying to do? And they're like, I'm trying to show my brain that you know this divorce doesn't happen. No, that's not what you're trying to do. Like, you're what you're trying to do is trigger yourself so that you can see that even if you get triggered, you can be okay. Oh, that's right. It changes the experience a lot. And then there's always a debrief afterwards. Like, and I will ask, what did you learn from this? Not how did you feel? Yeah, not what were you able to calm down? What did you learn about the nature of your scary thoughts or your symptoms? And what did you learn about yourself from this? If we do not ask those questions, then the experience just becomes, I'm doing the things, I'm pushing through, but nothing's happening. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_03 27:29

Well, we got next up on red zone, and I agree with that by the way. That's so true. It's like I get a lot of people that try to techniqueify exposures, but again, the theme of the episode, why are you doing the exposure? Like Drew asks. Well, I'm doing it, but and then there's some people that use exposures like would non-anxious you be doing that same exposure? I get up, I run around the park. I was like, that sounds boring now. You do that every day. Do you enjoy doing that? No, I'm doing it to get rid of this feeling. Well, then non-anxious you wouldn't be doing that, so I wouldn't do that. What would non-anxious you be doing that morning? Well, do you know what I would be doing? I'd get up and I'd make myself eggs. Yeah. Well then get up and make yourself eggs. What have you been doing instead? Lying in bed, Googling, Redditing, chatting to Chat GPT, asking for reassurance from my partner. That's golden rule number one out the window, isn't it? Get up and make eggs, even if you're shaky. You know, just go and do it. You know, and then where's your attention? You know, for me, it's usually avoiding the spitting oil because I overheat the pan constantly and never learn. You know, that's much better than ruminating on my impending doom in existence.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

I hear you. Every time I get a tattoo, they have to shave my arm, you know, there's hair on my arm. There shouldn't be because I'm constantly splattering it with hot oil. At this point, every follicle should be destroyed.

SPEAKER_03 28:49

Have you got asbestos hands now? I don't know what it is, man.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

No, you're 100% right. But in the end, the the exposure, it these two golden rules are really an exercise in radical. This is acceptance. These are acceptance and mindfulness-based strategies, not control-based strategies. You gotta you gotta get okay with that. Otherwise, you can't really apply these rules.

SPEAKER_03 29:10

Should we should we're next on red zone? Let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Hi, Josh Andrew. My name's Maggie Smith, and you can use my name. I'm 68 years old, and I live in South Devon in the UK, and I've got general anxiety, health anxiety, and OCD, which I've had for the last six years since my mum died, and COVID, etc. I've read quite a lot of your books, and I'm reading yours at the moment, Drew, which is really helping me get through this. And I listened to your podcast, and they helped a lot. Just wanted to share, I did it anyway. My friend invited me up to London, which is quite a big trek for me, but I did it. I went by coach and then by train, and I'm journey home yesterday, and I'm really pleased with myself. I did the whole lot, and I didn't even take a beta blocker yesterday, which I was really pleased about. So that's my did it anyway. And I just wanted to thank you guys so much for everything you do. It's really helped me, and I know it's helping lots of other people. So thanks guys. Keep doing what you're doing. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Another big win there. Thank you, Maggie.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

Lovely big win, brilliant. I love that. And you got the credit for it as well. Yeah. You know, like I usually do this, or I'd usually take a beta block or whatever, and like, actually, no, I want that. Now, don't get me wrong, if you're doing your exposures a little bit, graded, whatever, things like that, and you want to do that, or you have a health condition where you need to take beta blockers, that's fine. But for Maggie, it sounds like, no, I I realize that I want to get more of the credit here. Um, well done. Going up to London.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Really cool. Well, do what non-anxious me would do. I got invited to take this little trip, and that's what I would have done. So I guess I'll do that.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

Yeah, and you enjoyed it. So that tells me you didn't make how you felt the most important thing in the room.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

Or at a minimum, I you know, even though it kept maybe bubbling to the top, we don't know. Maggie didn't say that, so who knows? But like, even if it bubbled to the top, I'm I'm going to keep moving my attention back again to the coach trip or my friend or the museum or wherever, whatever's going on. Like, can I can I look over here at this painting in a museum while I feel like I'm this is too much and I'm about to snap? Yeah, I guess. Let's see how the next 10 seconds goes that way. So, yeah, you know, let me add that in there really quickly. I think it's it's a thing that's been helpful in my practice too, is granular. I can never say granular, granular. Is that even a word? Like the experience.

SPEAKER_04 31:54

It is now.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

It is now. I just invented it. So, like, trademark bitches, just saying don't be using it. Um I I think we try to like instead of saying, well, I have to accept or put my attention on something else for the entire three hours or whatever your event is, 20 minutes, three hours. Like, no, no, you only have to, you just have to keep writing over each individual wave. So soften into the each wave as it comes. What if can I do for the next 15 seconds? Oh, I feel like I need to run out of this movie theater right now. But what if I just soften into this, just this? Forget what's going to happen in another minute and what happened two minutes ago. Just write over this wave and then this wave. And what did I learn about each individual wave? That is what non-anxious me would do. I'll stay and keep watching the movie, and I'm going to try to watch this movie while everything in me is screaming, get up and run out of this theater. Win, huge win.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

What does that teach you? Particularly for you ruminators as well. Yep. It feels like because we chase the illusion of control by ruminating, and yet you've never solved anything ruminating. None of you have. None. Not a single one of you. Otherwise, you wouldn't be listening to us. Uh here's the next on red zone. Um this is from Jess uh in Australia. Hi, Josh and Drew. I just wanted to share a did it anyway with you from today. I'm 39 and have lived with anxiety presenting itself in various ways for the better part of 18 years. And about a year ago, I found your podcast and all your content when I was in a highly sensitized state. Oh good. Social media actually showed someone something helpful. Your podcast and all the psychoeducation you provide has helped me understand anxiety so much better. And with the confidence I have gained in my own abilities to cope with anxiety, I rarely find myself saying no to any activities lately. Golden rule number one. Even when I'm more sensitized than normal.

SPEAKER_04 33:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:45

Today, for example, I went to a water slide park. I love these. I went to a water slide part with my young kids and some family friends. The kids asked all the mums to come on some tube slides with them. Cue and internal freak out because a large part of my anxiety is around vision, balance, dizziness, and small spaces and twisting and turning and dizzy-inducing slides and no control or escape to get out until the slide finishes. Very triggering for me. Great exposure material. Nevertheless, I climbed up the giant flight of stairs with my kids in tow. We waited for what seemed like an eternity, and all the while I was debating with myself whether to just do it anyway, knowing that my fears were only anxiety or to let anxiety win and go back down the stairs. Well, your voices are in my head, one out. Yay, we're voices in people's heads. And when it was my turn to go, I got on that slide and I rode it all the way, twisting and turning the whole way down. I hated every minute of it. It was not enjoyable, but I'm glad I did it because I proved to myself that I can cope with any anxious thoughts or feelings. And the reality is never as bad as what my anxiety tells me it will be. So thank you for all the encouragement and sharing of personal journeys, which makes your podcast all that more relatable to those of us learning to live and thrive even when anxious thoughts are present. Oh, really great. Jess. I love it. It's an allegory, isn't it? For what we're doing. Just uh twisting, turning. You know, I hate it, but I'm glad I did it.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

You know, I think it's so important. Like, and Jess, thank you for sharing that. It's a great story. But like, hey, Jess might choose to not do water slides. She just doesn't like them. There's nothing wrong with that. But the decision wasn't made first by consulting whether it was okay with her anxiety.

SPEAKER_04 35:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:34

Like you have to ask your anxiety for permission. Is it okay if I go on the water slide? Will I feel okay? No, no, no, no, no. I don't have to ask that. It's not a question I have to ask. Maybe won't ever go on a water slide again, which is fine. I just didn't like it. But like I didn't avoid it because I was afraid.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

It was very values-driven as well. She obviously wanted to take her children on the water slide. That's right. So the aim wasn't to enjoy the water slide, it was non-anxious me, would take my kids on the water slide. And I would suck, and it would not I wouldn't like it, regardless of whether I was in a sensitized state or not. So I did it anyway. And anxiety was not the most important thing on the slide. My kids Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

I agree. Kids wanted to see, you know, mom get water up her nose and so they could laugh and yuck it up. And okay, that's that's the most that's more important to me than than accommodating this fear that I will that I won't be able to handle it. And remember, in the context that we're always talking about here, Jess's fear was not that the water slide would collapse or she would drown. It was the way she was going to feel. It's always the way you're gonna feel. So the red zone, by the way, if you know, like a question before from Hannah about like why can't I apply this to the other, this other no-fly zone, because you still think that the actual content of the no-fly zone is important. It's always how you feel. Always how you feel. And just connect it to that.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

It's really interesting. I always like a water slide. Um, but I look weird at water parks because I have really bad eyesight, so I have to wear goggles, prescription goggles, uh, which makes me look weird. Like people are like running away, like old guy with a goggle. I need them to see. And um, but yeah, when I remember even when I was in a sensitized state, I went to a water park, and it's when I began things began to click as well. As soon as you're on the slide, I enjoy it. Want to know why? Because it was escapism. You don't have time to ruminate, to compulsively check, to scan. You're like, my body's been thrown down a chute, and I'm being twisty and turning and sliding around. And actually, that's two minutes where I'm not ruminating and compulsing, I'm just literally being forced to be in the moment, and I feel better for that.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

Which shows you how much because that that is a that is a really good observation. Because in that situation, you know what? Hats off in this situation to the somatic people. I get you, like movement makes a difference. Yeah, because if you're being like no on a water slide, because you're just on a water slide. Yeah, yeah. But I think you know, the natural tendency there is I'm going to try to stay upright, I'm gonna try to balance, I'm navigating these terms. I mean, you're not really gravity is doing its thing, yeah, but like you get out of here, I'm pointing at my head, and down into your body, like the sensations of like flying down this slide, and like that's much better. I don't have time to like fixate on what's going on in my head. Really good, love it. Excellent. Any more from the community? No, that's the oh, we had two audios in the written, which is really cool. By the way, the goggles work for Michael Phelps. I mean, it seems to anyway.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

So, you know, Olympic swimming. That was it. When I was walking around the water part, everyone's like, is that Michael Phelps?

SPEAKER_02 38:47

Michael Phelps, American swim champion at this water park outside of Manchester. Yeah, young get there all the time. Why is he walking around with a beer? You would think he would eat better than that. Like his french fries are not getting all his time at all. He's a lot, he's a lot paler than I remember. Looks so much better on TV. I don't know what must be the camera, man.

SPEAKER_03 39:10

Um yeah, two golden rules, you know, and just a point of reference. If that was helpful for you, yeah, then use it. If it's not, that's okay. You know, we've got to go with what resonates with you. Um, thank you for sending in stuff to disordered.fm. Um, if you want to share more did it anyways for to the community for like minded people, you can come join us uh in the disordered community space, which you can find more of uh on disordered.fm or in the newsletter. Um, and it's just a space for people to come along and away from meta and all that stuff and all the bad things. It's just a place where you can call find Drew and I hanging out. We're we're kind of tired of hanging out on Meta and things. We just want to hang out with it with our people, and you can catch us there, we'll do Q ⁇ A's, we'll have discussions, we'll do workshops, things like that. Um, if not, no worries, we'll just see you here every Friday.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

Yeah, pop back and listen next week. I'm excited because it is algorithmic. It is not algorithmic, it's chronological. There's no algorithm. Like, it feels so much better.

SPEAKER_03 40:15

Yeah, and everyone gets it as well. There's no conflicting advice about have you tried this supplement? Have you done this? No, everyone knows everyone who listens to the podcast knows the way to deal with an anxiety disorder informed approach. And I think that's yeah, I'm very excited to hang out in the next week.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

We're gonna do a live stream in the community where Josh wears his goggles.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

If anyone wants to do a live exposure therapy, we have to make a chance.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

Don't turn your head.

SPEAKER_03 40:48

Remember your golden rules.

SPEAKER_02 40:51

Anyway, guys, thanks for listening. We'll be back next week.