The Compassionate Mind - The Role of Compassion in Anxiety Recovery (Episode 97)

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Compassion focused therapy. Sounds a lot like CBT. Does it derive from that?

SPEAKER_05 0:05

Yeah, it can be used alongside other modalities and often is, or it can be used as standalone. It's a great kind of therapy for people that have high levels maybe of self-criticism, feel shame or guilt.

SPEAKER_04 0:19

Shame, guilt, self-critical thinking sounds so familiar.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

One of the barriers to anxiety recovery we often hear is this guy is Craig the critic.

SPEAKER_05 0:27

Because sometimes the word compassion and kindness gets confused and people think it's the same. A sensitivity to suffering of oneself and other people, but with a deep desire and wish to do something about it. So it's not just enough to notice suffering, it's then going into action and having that motivation to try and do something about it.

SPEAKER_04 0:53

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 97 of the podcast entitled The Compassionate Mind. And we have a special guest today that we will introduce you to shortly, who's going to talk about this topic, very important in anxiety recovery. I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist practicing under supervision, specializing in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York. I am a former sufferer of panic disorder, agoraphobia, probably diagnosable OCD, depression. It was a good time for many, many years, but better now. Uh three-time author on the topic, obviously a podcast co-host and uh social media dude in the area of anxiety disorders.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

And I am joined as always by I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist and author and previous sufferer of anxiety, several anxiety disorders. Um, but I made it look cooler than Drew's. Um I am based in Manchester in the UK, and I'm very happy to introduce today's special guest, which is Dr. Elaine Beaumont. Dr. Elaine, who are you?

SPEAKER_05 1:54

Oh, thanks, Josh and Drew. Um well I'm a lecturer at Salford University, uh, which is just outside Manchester, for those of you who may be listening from somewhere else in the world. I'm a psychotherapist, I'm an author, and a researcher at the university. Um and I I guess I specialise in compassion focused therapy and compassionate mind training, which um is a therapy that I'm really passionate about. And I live in Salford, and that's is that enough, Josh?

SPEAKER_02 2:28

Yeah, that's that's wonderful. That's wonderful. I'm really happy to have you on. But uh fun fact um uh when I studied a bit of CBT at Salford University, my first ever lesson was taken by Elaine, and it was the only lesson I think we had. Uh and Elaine hasn't confirmed this, but I think since then I have been Elaine's favourite student. Don't deny that my attachment issues can't handle it. I'm just gonna proclaim that. Um, yeah, no, um CFT, compassion focused therapy. Uh sounds a lot like CBT. Does it derive from that?

SPEAKER_05 3:02

Well, there is in in some research, people will call it third-wave CBT, but that's not really true. Um, it's kind of a standalone therapy. There's a lot more research that we have now for compassion-focused therapy, and we're finding that a lot more people are just using it as a standalone therapy. In my early days, doing research, I used many years ago, I used to work for Greater Manchester Fire and Rescue Service. Um, and that's where I did my I did a master's project there, Josh, and that was um early 2000s, I think. Um, and I wasn't able just to apply compassion-focused therapy in the research that I did. I had to use CBT as well, because at that time there wasn't much really about kind of anxiety and trauma for compassion-focused therapy, whereas now there's much more. Um, so yeah, it can be used alongside other modalities and often is, or it can be used as standalone. It's a it's a great kind of therapy for people that have high levels maybe of self-criticism, um, feel shame or guilt. And a lot of my work, a lot of my work really I specialise in trauma. Um, so I did a lot of the therapy for people impacted by the Manchester bomb, for example, Greater Manchester Fire and Rescue, that was a lot of trauma work. Um, and in those kind of cases, it can be really, really quite helpful because it tackles shame and guilt and self-critical thinking.

SPEAKER_04 4:41

Shame, guilt, self-critical thinking sounds so familiar, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 4:45

Absolutely, yeah. And we get a lot of that. One of the barriers to anxiety recovery we often hear is um is our friend, who's our friend, Drew? This guy. It's Craig the Critic. And we often bring him up, but like a lot of people actually struggle with that, with that shame and that guilt. Uh, particularly those who have intrusive thoughts. Uh, what do they mean? What does this mean about me? Am I a bad person? Or people trying to do their exposure work and trying to do things that are really tricky. Um, this was this episode's also inspired. We get loads of questions about um judgment and stuff. Uh, someone said sent in a question. Good even good evening to you both. I just wondered if it would be possible if you would kindly consider doing an episode one day from a different angle. The importance of not feeling less than other people, building self-confidence, self-belief, and not judging ourselves so much, being a friend to ourselves, being compassionate, and how you both achieved this. As you know, these kind of things can be non-existent when suffering and possibly help reaching recovery and maintaining it. Uh, and then they go on and say thanks for the podcast, etc. But that's that I thought that question really kind of epitomizes what a lot of people deal with alongside anxiety. Drew, do you hear a lot about that as well? This internal critic, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:01

Yeah, constantly. One one of the most heartbreaking things that I encounter is people who they come into the process already very self-critical or with maybe some you know, cultural, family dynamic background, experiential background that teaches them that making a scene, that's the way they see it sometimes, air quotes, being really anxious, being overwhelmed by their emotions is such a failure. It harshes everyone else's mellow, it's ruining everyone else's day, they're being overly dramatic. What's wrong with them? They're too sensitive. They come into it thinking that if they are emotional in any way, and certainly anxiety and panic would qualify, it is wrong. They are failing just for feeling, and that's so hard to say. Really hard, and it is a huge barrier, I think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:46

So what would you say to? I mean, let's start from the basics in particular. Like let's start from the from the beginning. Elaine, how would you define compassion and particularly in relation to people struggling with anxiety?

SPEAKER_05 7:00

That's a great question because sometimes the word compassion and kindness gets confused and people think it's the same. Um, we could define Paul Gilbert, who's the uh sort of pioneer of compassion-focused therapy, defines compassion as a sensitivity to suffering of oneself and other people, but with a deep desire and wish to do something about it. So it's not just enough to notice suffering, it's then going into action and having that motivation to try and do something about it. So whilst the anxious mind is not our fault, it's so easy as human beings to get caught up into thinking-feeling loops. I guess if we're wanting to make changes is our responsibility. So compassion can be quite tricky because it's a motivation and it requires strength and courage. And we all know that people who are struggling with any kind of you know mental health or struggling with anxiety can tend to, you know, really get caught up in loops. You know, it's my fault, I'm to blame, I should be doing better. Um, and being a what having that sensitivity to like I'm suffering right now, uh, that's okay to acknowledge that, but let's have a have a look at different ways of alleviating that suffering.

SPEAKER_04 8:24

That's a that's impressive, Elaine, because I love that it doesn't just stop with I'm suffering now. I'm suffering now, and let's have a look at ways that I might be able to address that. I think we miss that sometimes in that that kindness and compassion discussion, which often, especially in social media circles, is just you know, it's just come you're suffering hand on the heart. Let's just talk about the suffering over and over and over and over and over. So I I appreciate that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:50

Yeah. I think it's it's really important, isn't it? That we've kind of try and help. I mean, and that's where the the motivation bit comes into it. Paul Gilbert talks about two psychologies of compassion, one being things like having empathy. You know, how often do people kind of stop and and have empathy for the things that they're going through, or a sensitivity to the distress, or just sympathizing and saying, Oh, I'm sorry, I'm going through this right now. This really sucks. Um, and then the second psychology of compassion is more about kind of using different interventions, so how we can change our behaviour or use imagery or have compassionate thinking. Um, and that's slightly different to how we would view CBT. One of the things I was never a big fan of when I did my CBT training was how often in the books we talk about dysfunctional assumptions or irrational thinking. And I remember thinking, you know, people have been really brave to come through the therapy door, and then we're going to start talking to them about irrational thoughts. You know, oh, those thoughts are unhelpful. Um, you know, whereas we can talk about how we all get into thinking traps and that makes it more normal, and we all do. Um, I was saying to the students at Salford the other day, I don't think I've ever given a questionnaire, an anxiety questionnaire to anybody where anyone scored zero for no anxiety. We all would score something, wouldn't we? Even when we're having a great day and things are going well for us.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Um yeah, we often hear that as well. Like there's this there's this stern belief amongst our community, particularly, is that, and I felt this at once upon a time is that feeling anxiety, feeling disordered anxiety in particular, in the sense of I'm panicking in the supermarket or I'm having intrusive thoughts at a family dinner, that's bad. And what we try to say to people is no, you're just you know, you're having thoughts and you're having an emotional response to them, but for a lot of people they struggle with the compassion behind that. No, how is how is it possible that I can't think that having an intrusive thought about harming someone or losing control is not a bad thing? And it always taps into like this guilt, you know. Um what would you say to kind of someone in that situation, Elaine, where they're like they're battling, they're fighting, they're trying to fix themselves every day because feeling anxious is is bad and it shouldn't be there.

SPEAKER_05 11:27

Yeah, it's it's a really good point. Um I suppose remind helping people remember that actually some of that's normal. You know, we all experience anxiety on a day-to-day basis. I was very anxious um as a child growing up, um, remembering that we all get caught up in thinking, feeling loops, so and that then kind of trigger what we call in compassion focused therapy our threat system. So we talk about three systems a threat system which gets us ready for for danger or perceived danger, it doesn't have to be real. The drive system which motivates us to move forward. So, like you, Josh, doing brilliantly at Salford and all the great, wonderful things that you've achieved with your books, etc. That's the the drive system. And if but if we're constantly in a state of threat and drive, we don't have the rest and digest. So the third system is a soothing system, which is a system that really helps us just to slow down and calm down. And so we're not saying to people, oh, we want to get rid of this threat system, you know, we need it because if we are in danger, that's what helps us. If the house is on fire, that helps us get you know out of the out of the house. Um, but we just want to balance between all three. So what we try and do in therapy is or in compassionate mind training, because you don't need to be in therapy to to try and practice this stuff, you know, we try and bring balance to the three systems, but we have this idea that we're all born with a tricky brain that gets caught up in loops. We all do, that's evolved over millions and millions of years. And we think about the version of the person that we are now, and you know, now I'm in my 50s, I'm a different version of the person that I was in my 20s, 30s. So if we can have an idea of a future self and what that would look like and see ourselves maybe managing or living with the anxiety, um, then that can be helpful. And and with, you know, I suppose for us, Josh, if if we'd have been, well, for all of us, Drew included, if if you and I, Josh, would have been born in New York and Drew in Manchester and Salford, it just we would have had different experiences, different families, you know, diff maybe a different culture, a religion. So all of those things are not our fault. You know, I would have preferred to have been born in Hawaii rather than Salford, but but here I am, and funnily enough, I've stayed here. So um, but that's just one version, you know. I'm not a prisoner of my past. And and I don't know whether that would be helpful for people to hear, but it's that idea of you know, the threat system is normal, it's a normal reaction, and whatever version you want to be, you can you can work on.

SPEAKER_04 14:28

Elaine, you said something earlier. You mentioned briefly, like chain what you know, look at changing our behavior. I think one of the things that becomes it's almost like a circular reasoning thing that we see in our community, like, okay, cool. So I'll be compassionate. And yeah, well, I have a tricky brain like everybody else does. But you don't understand, I have this very deeply ingrained belief that I am defective or broken or less than or whatever. And they almost hear well, compassionate or kindness to myself means I just flip a switch and I don't have that belief anymore. Now I see myself as wonderful, yeah. But you can't like you cannot just decide to see yourself a different way today, because these three people on this podcast told you to. So, where do where do you lead them? You know, I can't seem to access compassion, or I can't I can't just drop that that belief on the floor that I'm defective. What do I do now?

SPEAKER_05 15:26

Well, that's the that's the motivation, the doing part. So whether it's uh you know anxiety, a phobia, um you know, so it's the the behaviour part is the doing things and doing it gradually. But first of all, we might do some kind, yeah, like grounding technique, slowing the body down, imagining a calm, peaceful place. I'll suppose a little bit of CBT where we can imagine in our mind's eye doing the things that make us fearful. So we kind of run through and do some graded exposure to whatever maybe that the fear is or the anxiety is. Um, and you know, this kind of normalizing that this is the same for a lot of other people as well, and it takes courage. And and the other thing we talk about is this idea of a wise mind. The wise mind, which we all can have, gets caught up in loops. The wise mind knows life is hard, the wise mind knows life is full of suffering and hopefully moments of joy and happiness as well. But the so the wise mind knows that, but the the wise mind also wants to link in with qualities of um strength and a caring commitment to try to do the best to alleviate suffering for themselves. So it's a nice it's a nice part of the compassionate mind model, I think. The the compassionate behavior, because it's gradual, just like you know, you would do in CBT. Um, but it's if I was at my best, how would I be tackling that? Now I might not be at my best today, but if I was, you know, I like that.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

It's yeah, that's great. I like that a lot. Yeah, yeah. It it's I'm not at my best today, but if I was, what would I what would that look like? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so good.

SPEAKER_05 17:22

You know what it taps in, it taps into guys, um, method acting. You know, like I remember years ago listening to I think it was Robert De Niro on, you know, one of the like Graeme Norton or something in the UK, and he was interviewing Robert De Niro and he was saying about how he gets into a into a role, and he was having this out I can't remember what the role was because I'm going back quite some time, but he was saying he tried on you know a lot of pairs of shoes in order to get into the role of the of the actor, uh of the you know, of the character, and he found this pair of shoes that made him a bit off balance, but as soon as he kind of put those shoes on, he knew he had that character, and it's also it's so it almost, you know, Daniel Day Lewis was the same, and I think Scarlett Johansson, I'm not 100% sure, but it's this idea of if I've got a vision in my mind of what that good, that best version of me would look like, how would I interact with the world? Yeah, what would it be doing? What would I say? Would I be smiling? Would it be holding the door open in a way that's helpful? Um, so I suppose it's it's a bit like fake it till you make it.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

Yeah, well, Drew says behave how you want to feel.

SPEAKER_04 18:42

Yeah, we don't or act as if act as if, even though you don't feel that yet, just what would it look like if you did?

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Yeah, and some people are like, isn't that me being inauthentic? Isn't that me being like, well, not really, because the compassionate act here is that yes, my brain is in thought, thought, behavior loops, yeah, which is making me overall miserable, miserable. So the compassionate thing to do here is if I put my energy into being compassionate to my future self as well as my current self by behaving how I want to feel, by snapping out of these loops, by challenging these beliefs, that in it in itself is a compassionate thing to do. Behaving how I want to feel, and yeah, kind of like behaving like the ideal version of me would do. And I someone who's done it myself, you know. And Drew often said it in his early podcast, you know, like sometimes in the midst of anxiety disorders, I have to get up and brush my teeth. I have to go for a walk, and I didn't like it, and I didn't want it, but you start to imprint on the mind, yeah, this is actually my this is what I want my default to be, and it's so powerful. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

That inauthentic thing, I think, is important, but like in a situation where, like, well, who are you fooling though? You know, what ruse are you perpetrating upon the world? You're really acting between you and you, you know. So if I'm gonna try to like be a little bit more kind or compassionate, give myself a chance to act like the person I hope I am or wish to be, that's between you and you. I mean, I don't understand that that idea that, like, well, I'm I'm being not being authentic with who? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, right. I love how like the threads of disordered, like as we have different guests on. Yeah, Elaine, you're bringing so many cool things that have come up in different podcasts, even different guests have said some of these things. Yeah, and I'm like, like, we didn't coach any of this FYI. Elaine just showed up and did this, so yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Yeah, and it's one of those. Um, should we get into sp some specifics uh about our community, Drew, and then see what Elaine thinks. So sure, if you're a listener now, if we're imagining our listeners now, what mightn't they me be kind of thinking, Drew?

SPEAKER_04 20:47

If some of them well, I I I think for a lot of people it's it's but how do I do right? There we go. But how? And like so we just I think Elaine was trying to answer that question, but I know that people listening would be okay, cool, but how do you do that? If I'm so afraid of my thoughts and my own bodily sensations and my own big emotions, how do I act? How do you do that? And I think it becomes one of those like self-compassion and self-kindness issues. I'm so afraid, I'm so afraid. So I can't move forward. I'm frozen in this situation where I have to avoid my feeling, and that means I'm not strong enough. I'm just not strong enough to do this kind of work, which means I'm weak. And I think it's a thing we hear every day, both of us. Yeah. So how would you respond to that? Like the fact is, I'm I'm just I'm sorry, I'm afraid. And people are trying to just not be afraid so they can do the hard work and they don't understand that sequence of events.

SPEAKER_05 21:42

Yeah. Well, I guess the first the first thing is that's that's okay, that's normal that you're going to feel like this, you know. You know, and I might use kind of some kind of analogy where I might ask somebody I'm working with, you know, are they right or left-handed? And then if they say right. Right handed. I'll say, well, if I was to throw a ball to you, you're either going to move out of the way or catch it with your right hand. But now I'm asking you to try and catch it with your left hand. We're going to try and mix it up and do something different. And that's going to take a lot of courage, you know. But you've taken the big step to potentially listen to the podcast or come into therapy. And we're going to start small. And one of the good things is with this kind of work, I guess it's about the collaboration and kind of working as a team on a very practical level. So thinking traps. So we might start thinking about asking them to think about a time where something's gone well, or a time when uh they've been valued by somebody else, just kind of starting to kind of build up in a in a in a small way, just so that they can see that sometimes it's as a result of the thinking. And those things all those thoughts that they have, or we have, we have, are not facts. Do you know how many thoughts we have a day?

SPEAKER_04 23:15

Oh, me about three tops on a good day. That's on a good day. That's on a good day.

SPEAKER_05 23:23

We have between 15,000 and 60,000 thoughts every day. I've not counted them myself. But that's it's a lot of thoughts, and thoughts are not facts. So just because I think something might be true or believe in this doesn't mean it's true. If I have a positive thought, like I might win the lottery at weekend, we tend to just kind of you know forget about that and make and potentially go back to a to a um a negative thought. Um, one of the things, another thing that people can do is is what we call creating a PDA plan. I don't mean public displays of affection plans.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

Just so Drew's just freezing horror then. Oh no, do I have to hug somebody?

SPEAKER_05 24:09

This this Manchester human might not be work working for you, Drew.

SPEAKER_04 24:13

He gets it anyway, don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_05 24:18

Um but it's a pre-jure in an after plan. So if we if we if we can take this from kind of sports personalities, you know, elite athletes, you know, think about kind of Serena Williams of V and Venus, who I've always really loved watching play, you know, they would have a plan in the mind, wouldn't they, about you know, preparing for the match, maybe listening to music and having headphones on to pump themselves up or calm themselves down. They might use the senses, they might think about things in the past that have done they've done well and challenges that they've overcome. Um, and and so, you know, before a big match, I was thinking about them, all people that are elite sports athletes as well, and and teams, they'll have a plan B. But my mind suddenly, Josh, went to Manchester United and how there doesn't seem to be a plan B at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

There are things worse than anxiety disorders, and that is Manchester United.

SPEAKER_05 25:16

Yeah, yeah, thanks for that. Um, but yeah, so pre doing whatever it is that's frightening, coming up with a plan, can I talk to a friend about it, can I go with a friend? What will this look like in my mind's eye? Um, you know, so, and then you know, it might be that they'll do some soothing um exercises, some breathing exercises, maybe thinking about a calm, peaceful place, thinking about the fact that they're giving this a go and it takes courage and wisdom and strength. And that's a big deal. That's a massive step. People underestimate that, and then kind of jaw in, you know, whatever the anxiety challenges, you know, maybe having, you know, for some people, they like shiny stones and stuff in the pocket, you know, and and and they can use it for for for grounding work, they can use a compassionate other. So, this idea of if I had somebody in my mind, like it for some people, it could be a grandparent that's passed away, it could be something like um, with a lot of the young people I've I've worked with, they've they'll kind of think about well, what would Harry Potter do? What would a superhero do? How would they tackle this? They, you know, they're having to be strong and courageous at times. Things aren't easy for them. Um, and and for for some people, they might not be able to think of a compassionate other as a person because they've never witnessed compassion before. And I suppose this might be the case for some people listening.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

They've it's a lot of people listening who yeah, who do struggle because they've not received that compassion either, which you know, which is uh something I took for granted in my anxiety recovery. It was like I was fortunate enough to be surrounded by compassion. I you know, I was I was surrounded, don't get me wrong, it was a turbulent childhood, but I was lucky enough to be have kind of predictable loved ones around me, so I would my brain didn't go down down another route. But yeah, it's about having that. And um I I did that during my exposures, I wouldn't envisage a loved one or something like talking to me, yeah you know, and and over time it did work to get through tricky things, yeah. Um, and sometimes I do like on disorder, we don't usually encourage taking magic objects and stuff, but actually I to do tricky things I can do sometimes. So, like when I do public speaking, I'll take a stim toy for the uh for the autism and and just have that rolling in my hand, but I'll still do the scary thing, you know. Don't get me wrong, if I didn't have the stim toy, it's not the end of the world, I'd still do it, but it's also a kind thing for me to to to do as as I'm doing those things because I'm choosing to do it. Yeah, um, yeah. What would Harry Potter say to you, Drew?

SPEAKER_04 28:09

I I have a confession to Hagrid's let himself go. I I have never I've never read a Harry Potter book or seen a Harry Potter. I have a confession to make. It is just Oh my god, can't answer the question. But you know, one of the things I know. I I'm excommunicated from disorder. One of the things I think that's somewhat interesting is, and I'm loving all of this, but uh Josh, I appreciate that you're like, Well, we don't normally encourage people to bring magic objects with them. And I find the discussion of like, well, a person is before you get started doing the scary thing, the pre, the pe part of PDA, maybe we can do a grounding exercise or a calming exercise. So here's where things, this is where professionals begin to maybe disagree a little bit, but we don't have to disagree. So, like, normally in my practice, I would try to encourage the person, no, no, we we're doing this. Remember, you're doing it to feel this agitation, this fear, not to try to calm it down because sometimes the lack of compassion or this harsh criticism, this guy the critic, is because I'm anxious and I know I don't have a good reason to be. There's no real threat. I'm anxious because I'm anxious and I cannot control it. I can't calm it down. So we have to sometimes be careful because, well, let's do a grounding exercise, and the person is like, that's bullets off a Superman. I'm in a panic right now because I have to go walk around the block. It will re-trigger that, like, no, see, I can't do it. This doesn't work for me. Nothing works. Yeah, but I can understand where it's coming from, though. Like, no, look, you do actually have a say in this. You actually do have a say. So it's so fascinating how this can get really nuanced, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:41

When I said when I set my intentions though, really interestingly, like when I set my intention to do an anxious exposure, uh, I do that when I am calmer and I do it with my clients, right? We're calm now. Yeah. What are we doing?

SPEAKER_03 29:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

What when are we doing? Because when you're calm, you can make that PDA plan. So then when you do the exposure, you exp you expect it because your calm, wise mind has absorbed what exactly what's going to happen. Yeah. So you go in and you're like, right. I feel doubtful, I feel scared, but I knew this was gonna happen. Yeah, and this is my own because I remember just writing this down clear as deck. My mind isn't clear now, but it was clear when I did it then. And I I saw all this coming, and therefore, this is what I'm practicing with. Um, but yeah, it can be tricky, and uh for a lot of people with anxiety as well, they just they end up just hating themselves because they're anxious all the time, like they feel like they're doing something wrong. And I love when you said, no, it's actually you know, we all experience it, it's normal, but it your relationship, I think, with the anxiety itself is so important. Yeah, you're not doing it, it's a part of your brain that you're not in control of in the short term, yeah. But your relationship with it is so important. Um, so I don't like those books like beating your anxiety gremlin and stuff like that. No, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_05 31:08

I I agree, Josh. You know, it's just a part of us. Like I have a thyroid disorder, it doesn't define who I am, it's part of me, and it's something that I have to manage and live with, and it's not a big deal. Um, it I guess it was before it it was diagnosed many years ago because it was very anxiety-provoking, but you know, so it's a part of who of who we are, and I think one of the things is to try and try to tailor some of these things to meet individual needs. So, for example, thinking about the PDA plan, what happens if you've not had a compassionate other? Well, have you had an animal that you felt compassion from? You know, have can you feel something from are you spiritual? Is there a religious figure? How could you help kind of yourself in those situations? Kind of use whatever this is outside of you, and and I I understand what you're saying regarding kind of grounding techniques, but maybe you know, kind of soothing rhythm breathing, maybe going to a safe, uh, calm, peaceful place just you know, before just to try and connect with that soothing system. That's gonna take practice because like Drew was saying, I think what's gonna happen, the threat system's gonna kick in. No, think about me. I'm the one in control, but then the soothing system can say, you know, so so the self-compassionate part can say to that inner critic, uh, you know, or that threat, what is it you need? You're working so hard to beat some of this stuff and to change things, uh, but you need a rest, and this critic is trying to keep you safe, but it probably needs a bit of a rest because it's been, you know, you've been talking to yourself this way for so many years, it's gonna be take a while to start to think differently about it. Um, did I answer your question there, Josh?

SPEAKER_02 33:09

Yeah, you did. Um, I do the thing. I'm part of that, what I do as well with my clients, and I think it's really applicable, is that you need to show people a taste of what it's like when you do feel calm because it becomes part of your values to chase it again. Yeah, that's what happened with me. I first read Claire Weeks' book, and I felt a sense of relief I've never felt in a while. Then I was resensitized to anxiety. But part of my value and the compassionate side of myself was I want to feel that feeling that Claire Weeks gave me, or poor David, or whoever, when I read those books. And and I'm sure Drew gets it, and I hear that a lot from readers and things like that is like I want that feeling again. A compassionate, your compassionate mind would be like, Well, yeah, you felt what it's like to be in a soothed, calm state of the compassion, is to this is what you need to do to get more of that, to get more of the good stuff, yeah. You know, what what drives you? And I particularly remember having that. I want that feeling again, so I'm willing to be anxious to get that feeling again.

SPEAKER_04 34:08

Yeah, I think what about the accessing, and I I I get that. Like, well, can you access a memory of sometimes when you experience compassion? What about if you provided it? So sometimes I'll say things like, Okay, well, if you had a child or a friend who was doing something very challenging to them, would you try to, you know, teach them ways to not feel challenged, or would you cheer for them as they move through the challenge over the hump of the challenge? Yeah, like, well, that's a kind thing you would do to that person. So in this situation, I know you've been fighting to try to forcibly calm your threat system, and it doesn't seem to be working. What if you took a chance and root, you know, root cheer for yourself while you watch that system play itself out and know you can handle it? To me, and I know this sometimes gets a little bit ruffled some feathers, but I think one of the most compassionate things we can do for ourselves is to allow ourselves to be afraid and learn how to handle that as opposed to insisting that we must only calm it down. But that's not a popular, I think, look at that sometimes.

SPEAKER_05 35:09

So yeah, I'll I'll like that though, Drew, because that's tapping into the reality that actually part of life sometimes is suffering and anxiety, and it's not all a piece of cake and feeling joy and happiness. But then I guess it taps into what Drew was saying before when he's had moments of that kind of inner peace or you know, or want to feel that again, he then knows what that's what that feels like.

SPEAKER_03 35:36

Yeah, what's required.

SPEAKER_05 35:39

Yeah, and and I guess it's thinking that in compassionate mind training, we talk about three flows of compassion. So we're not just wanting to build up self-compassion, but we're wanting to learn to be open to the compassion from other people. Now, some people find that tricky because when they have been open to receiving compassion from others, maybe it's not but it, you know, maybe there's been ulterior motives. Yeah, the other person wanted something, you know, maybe manipulation, abuse, or something. And then there's learning to, you know, if you've not learned this in childhood or naturally, you know, kind of practiced this, this idea of showing compassion to others. So again, we want to try and have a balance of three flows compassion for self for others and receive compassion from others.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

Um, you get that a lot of stumbling bar. That's the kind of limitations a lot from the modalities that Drew and I love with you know stuff is that when it goes on that deeper level of why can I not receive that compassion both from others and myself? And I truly believe that if you cannot do that and you cannot internalize a sense of compassion, you will struggle with exposure therapy because you cannot encode the experience as a positive, it will only remain as a negative, and that's why some people get stuck in anxiety disorder recovery because they can't encode it. Whereas Drew and I, when we were agrophobic, we were like, let's go out in the car, feel scared, come back, woohoo, we're amazing, go watch, cheerlead. Yeah, but then for some people, like no confirming that as an achievement as a positive, they really struggle with it. Yeah, really, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:21

It's taking those. I mean, if you'd have you guys would have said to me, you know, my younger self, oh, one day you'll be kind of teaching at a university and doing the things you do. I just wouldn't have believed it. I was so shy and anxious, as you can see, I'm very fair. I would easily blush. We'd have somebody in in the classroom who you know, they I remember a lad in the classroom, and he would say, Oh, Elaine Beaumont blushing again, looking like a red Belicia beacon, you know. And yeah, when you when you're hearing that and you're 12, 13 years old, you know you wanted to be born in Hawaii.

unknown 37:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

Right now, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:04

What when I'm trying to do some kind of soothing exercise or go to a calm, peaceful place, I go to Hawaii. I've been looking in my mind, but I always make sure that the sun's not too hot.

SPEAKER_04 38:17

It's Hawaii, but it's a hazy day. As we're all loving, Elaine is literally drinking out of a Hawaii mug.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

She's not on a rainy day and stuff. Uh, I'm just conscious of the time stuff. Um we got time for did it anyway, Drew? Should we celebrate if community did it anyway?

SPEAKER_04 38:37

Yeah, sure. Let's play. We have two of them. We might not get to both of them, but let's play one of them, and then we'll hear some commentary from a compassionate expert. So let's go.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Hello, Josh and Drew. This is Jenny from Canada. First of all, I want to say thank you very much for your brilliant podcast. Um, it has helped me so much. I just started listening a couple of months ago. A lot of the things you talk about I've heard before, but the way you talk about it and how you introduced your principles have really stuck with me. So thank you. I wanted to share a did it anyway. Um, a pattern for me has been whenever there has been a family member with a health problem, crisis, doctor's appointment. Um, I would actually never follow up with them to see how it went because I had such fear that it was going to be bad news. I never did. And of course, I feel bad about that because that's not a very compassionate thing to do. But today I did it anyway. Um, one of my family members was going for a doctor's appointment, and it could have been good, couldn't have been could have been bad. The old me would have actually not followed up, but I did it right away. As soon as I knew there was enough time from the doctor's appointment to when they would have been home, I actually called and asked how it went. And I felt so good about that. So I did it anyway. And um the outcome of the doctor's appointment wasn't catastrophic, is what I fear, and it wasn't the best news. It was somewhere in between, but the fact that I did it anyway felt so good. So thanks for everything you're doing. You guys are changed lives. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

There's definitely three streams of compassion in there, I heard anyway.

SPEAKER_05 40:32

Well done, Jenny. Jenny from Canada.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Yeah, that was that was lovely. Uh yeah, the compassion for herself, compassion for someone else. Yeah. And compassion for the whole situation. It was difficult. Well done. That's a really good deal, anyway. Yeah, love it.

SPEAKER_04 40:48

Uh, should we hear another one or we want to take a question?

SPEAKER_02 40:50

Let's throw another one on.

SPEAKER_04 40:53

Might as well. And if you want to send one of these in, go to disorder.fm and hit the little blue button. You can send us a voicemail.

unknown 40:58

Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

Hi, Drew. Hi, Josh. Um, my name is Abby. Feel free to use my name. I wanted to share a did it anyway. Um, I've been struggling with panic disorder and pretty bad anxiety for about a year and a half now. Um, I've been listening to your podcast and going through my recovery, and it's been so helpful. Um, but I I still was struggling with when I have panic attacks, I was, you know, reaching out to my comfort person, my mom, my fiance. Um yesterday I had a really bad panic attack in the morning. Um, it was a panic attack that before would have made me call out of work and stay in bed all day. Um, but I didn't call anyone, and I just kept getting ready for work and I went to work, and I totally bossed the shit out of it. Excuse my friend. Um, I literally feel like a rock star, and it's so true that taking the credit, giving yourself the credit is so important. Um, so I just want to say thank you for all that you guys do. Um, the information and support that you give has been key in um getting my anxiety under control. So um, yeah, and I also wanted to say that anyone who feels like they can't get through a panic attack without their comfort person or without their safety behaviors, um you absolutely can because I was there and I did it. And I'm so proud of myself. Um, so thanks.

SPEAKER_04 42:48

Whoa, I get the wrong button. I am the law.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

You didn't you can't end that amazing did it anyway with Judge Dredd explosion sound effects.

SPEAKER_04 42:58

That was happening. Sorry, Abby, that wasn't cool, but uh that was a great debut.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

That was amazing.

SPEAKER_05 43:03

Yeah, well done, Abby.

SPEAKER_02 43:05

Did you hear compassion in that, Elaine?

SPEAKER_05 43:08

Definitely, definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

I love that. And and then not only compassion for themselves.

SPEAKER_05 43:14

Yeah, yeah. She's a rock star in that moment. That's you she felt brilliant.

SPEAKER_04 43:21

You know, without having some uh exhibiting some compassion for yourself, you can't access that rock star feeling. Yeah, that was really great. Very well done. Love it. Um, that's the thing now, the rock star feeling. I I quite like that, yeah. Oh, yeah. I call it like a you feel like a superhero. That's that like I'm a little bit of a nervous flyer. And when you get to the airport on the other side, it just like you feel like you own the place when you walk off the plane, like that's right, I'm here. I flew.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Oh, that's so good. Um, yeah, I think we're we're out of time, aren't we? But uh I just wanted to extend um a massive thank you. Elaine is an author of a very good book, and if uh compassion is something you struggle with. With. You've got a couple of books, haven't you? Haven't you? I've not read the latest one, but the uh I've read the compassionate mind workbook by Elaine Beaumont and Chris Irons. And I often um refer it to some of my clients as well, particularly for those who struggle. There's some really good stuff in there, like really, really good. And if compassion and being kind to self is something that you struggle with, get hold of this book and work your way through it. Honestly, it's uh get out your pen, scribble all over it, and um it's it's really encouraging, and um, yeah, it's that's a disordered recommendation.

SPEAKER_05 44:35

Yeah, it's been made into an app now, um, as well. We were contacted by um a wonderful company called Psychological Technologies, and they were saying not a lot of people now wouldn't necessarily want to buy a book, they like things on apps and on the phone. And they said we what we we want to make best-selling books into apps for people, um, and so they've made it into it's been made into an app, it's a 28-day app. I've done some research with it, and it's been absolutely fabulous. And it's called the self-compassion app. Um, yeah, and and so that's doing really well, and it's like really accessible, and you can download different resources. Um, I can I can try and get you a a link for it if that'd be helpful with a discount for people if they're interested, or you know, maybe a a free download where they can download it for a few days to take a look. Um, but yeah, because books are not everybody's cup.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

I mean, I I love a workbook, but yeah, it's uh it's I love I love a book as well, but maybe you know that maybe it's an age thing as well as as the uh as people do that, and some people just don't like um I like to sit next to my hearth with my tanked of mead.

SPEAKER_05 45:58

And you you flat cap.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, criticizing Russell Kennedy's books.

SPEAKER_04 46:03

But yeah, that's like oh, we almost made it through an entire episode, but couldn't we disorder it if it wasn't some snark? If you guys go to what episode is it? In 97, you go to disorder.f97, whatever links Elaine give us, uh gives us, I will put that in the in the show notes for that. So check it out.

SPEAKER_02 46:21

Yeah, cool. Uh thank you once again, Elaine. And um, yeah, we really appreciate having you on.

SPEAKER_05 46:27

Oh, it was lovely. It's just so nice and easy going, guys. It was it was really, really pleasurable to do, and best of luck with everything, because you're obviously really making a difference and spreading a lot of compassion and care in the meantime as well.

SPEAKER_04 46:43

And really bad jokes. So, anyway, guys.

SPEAKER_05 46:46

Well, I agree with that too.

SPEAKER_04 46:48

Absolutely. If you're listening to this podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or some platform that lets you leave a rating or something, like show us the love if you really dig the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 46:56

And we show your compassion by giving us a rating.

SPEAKER_04 46:59

I mean compassionate people, five stars is very compassionate.

SPEAKER_02 47:03

And you and you will only recover from an anxiety disorder if it is five stars. Ouch.

SPEAKER_04 47:08

Anyway, thanks for listening. We will be back next week with something for out.