Self Compassion in Anxiety Recovery (Episode 145)

SPEAKER_03 0:01

But I did write. No days off, no self-compassion. That was not correct. One of the obstacles, I think, to applying the principle of self-compassion is a belief that berating yourself or criticizing yourself is good. It's not. I don't think it's ever good.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Self-compassion might be like you don't need to analyze everything you're doing. You know what? Give yourself a pat on the back and a reward. It's usually the opposite of what that strong inner critic wants you to do. They will criticize how they feel and what they think. And then I was wondering why I couldn't desensitize again. And the missing ingredient was I wasn't being compassionate.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

Job one in self-compassion is to be able to be whatever version of yourself you are right now. But if you don't at least acknowledge that in this very moment I am a frightened, avoidant version of Drew, then he can't ever move forward because then you don't let that version into the classroom. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 145. Today we're talking about self-compassion and what it sort of looks like in the context of anxiety recovery or the desensitization process. I am Drew Linsolata. I'm a therapist practicing in New York that specializes in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders. Surprise, that's what we talk about on Disordered, former sufferer of these very problems, an author, psychoeducator, clearly a podcast podcast host, social media guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

And uh yeah, I'm joined today as always by I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist and author who specializes in the world of anxiety and anxiety disorders. I write about it, do podcasts about it. Um yeah, commit my working life uh to the topic, and I really enjoy it and uh appreciate you all for tuning in.

SPEAKER_03 1:39

Yeah, and happy we are that you do that, dude. Welcome back. So yeah, that's cool, man. What are we talking about today? We're talking about self-compassion. We've talked about it before. It is a it is a good topic. I think it's a really important topic. It's getting more and more um, I think, airtime, which is good. People are talking about it more, but we often get questions, and by the way, thanks to our friend Cheryl, who sent in an audio message to us at distorted.fm to request this. Um, so let's do it. I I think I we get questions about like, but where does that fit in? Like, how do you do self-compassion? Like, what does it look like? So maybe we'll get a little more practical about the application of the self-compassion principle today. Uh yeah, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 2:19

Should we start with a did it anyway first to get people all amped up and what brilliant way to start by doing celebrating people's wins. That's a compassionate thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 2:29

Yeah, so let me just make sure that I am actually piping the video through. Nope, see, I would have had it wrong. So it's the awkward moment where I check my tech setup before I play.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Hi, Joe and Josh. My name's Blake. Just listening to the latest episode of the podcast where you guys have asked for some voicemail did it anyways, and thought I'd send in a small little one from a couple months ago. Growing up, I was a pretty big swimmer, always enjoyed swimming. I used to live near the beach and had a pool at home. Yeah, we just really enjoyed doing a few laps for some fitness. About eight years ago, I moved out of home into the city and with that basically stopped swimming altogether. Uh, I was quite scared of public pools, uh, scared of being perceived and scared of the health uh side of things of swimming in a shared pool. And yet didn't swim for about eight years. But a couple months ago I I gave up, got annoyed of that feeling, and uh went and bought some new swimwear and went to the local pool, uh, paid the admission fee and and went for a swim. And as soon as I got in the water, those worries about being perceived by others and the worries about the contaminated water um completely vanished and and I just had the best time. So yeah, I've been swimming for about two months now. Haven't gone recently, not for fear, but more for laziness. But uh we'll we'll get back to it soon. But yeah, I thought I'd just share that little one as something I'm pretty proud of to have picked up that um that that hobby and that habit again. Thanks for all you all the work you guys do. Keep it up.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

Yes, Blake, well done. I love that. It's not a little one, that's massive. You've not swam for eight years because of intrusive thoughts and avoidance tendencies, and you went and got in the pool. And then, okay, you've not gone back, but I like because you've not gone back out of choice. It's just like I've proven that to myself. You know, I'll go if I want to go, not because I can't go. Yeah, uh, I think that's a big one. Well done.

SPEAKER_03 4:39

Yeah, I agree. Definitely not a small one. There are no small did it anyways, like there are none, zero. If you move again, if you take the opposite action, then anxiety or Craig the Critic is telling you to take, you win. Doesn't matter how small the action is.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

So if someone wanted to send in a did it anyway, like Blake, how would they do that?

SPEAKER_03 4:54

I would urge them or at least advise them or suggest that they go to disorder.fm and just click on the little voicemail button that's on the website, and you can record a voicemail to us, a dude anyway, a question, just a comment, a joke, sing a song. I don't know, whatever. So yeah, do it there.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Excellent. Uh brilliant. Thanks for kicking us off, Blake. Um, compassion, we spoke about it many moons ago, but it's a really important topic, so we should kind of come back to it. What does it look like? What does compassion look like or not look like when we are desensitizing to anxiety and a misfiring threat response?

SPEAKER_03 5:29

Over to you, Drew, our expert. Our expert. Yes, I'm the self- I'm literally the guy that wrote no self-compassion in in his first book. Uh that is if there is a phrase that I could take back and swallow again in my first book, which I give away for free, in anxiety store, you can get it. It's on my website, go there. You can just get a PDF, it's fine. Um, I wrote that in my recovery there was no self-compassion. Uh I thought it was a bad thing. I'll explain that. And here I am.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

Let's start, let's start now then. Here I am.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

So here's why I thought that. And I think this is one of the things that trips people up in terms of like, well, how do I apply that concept? What does it even look like in the recovery or desensitization process? I I looked at it as I'm not gonna lie, I will be totally transparent here. I looked at it as whining a little bit, and I was so tired of hearing me whin. Whining? I did that so like, and here's why I thought that. I'm not defending it, I was wrong, as it turns out. But I did write, no days off, no self-compassion. In fact, when somebody just joined our community, I will talk about that later. That was one of the things they put in like, what is one of the things you learned on disorder that you don't get from other places? And they said, No days off, no self-compassion. And that's not from this podcast. That person read my first book, and I was like, ooh, dagger to the heart. Okay. I thought it was whining because of the avoidance thing. Like, I was so highly avoidant and trying to control how I felt that I somehow thought if I'm going to be kind to myself, and that means I'm going to avoid more. I'm going to give myself, I'm going to let myself out the hook over and over and over. That was not correct. So I'm misusing self-compassing hundreds.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Mislabeling self-compassion as avoidance.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

And I have found definitely in my practice too, that many people feel like beating themselves up or criticizing themselves or berating themselves somehow keeps them in check. Now I thought it would kept me from being too avoidant. I thought I would just go and sit on the sofa. You know, oh, it's a I need a me day. Like I would I would say these things in my head, like, oh, just take a me day and sit on the sofa. Well, I don't know what I was thinking, but I truly had a belief that like driving myself very hard had a positive benefit. And that was wrong. So one of the obstacles I think to applying the principle of self-compassion is a positive belief that berating yourself or criticizing yourself is good. Somehow it's good. It's not. I don't think it's ever good.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

I like the layer of self-compassion that you're demonstrating by admitting actually I that's something I wouldn't do today, actually. And that's okay. Definitely not self-compassion as well. You don't see many uh people in the influencer space do that, do you? Like the double down on things and stuff. And I wrote stuff, I've written stuff that I'm like, I wouldn't apply now, you know, and stuff. Yeah. Um and I think that's lovely. And yeah, and also what is self-compassion probably for you was stay motivated. This is a compassionate thing for you to do, Drew. Stay motivated, and you'll get out of this cycle. Yeah. You know. Um, but for someone else, it might look be something different. Like self-compassion is ignore the opinions of your very opinionated family members and loved ones. Yeah, self-compassion might be like you don't need to analyze everything you're doing. Self-compassion might be like, you know what, give yourself a pat on the back and a reward. You know, self-compassion, it doesn't matter. It's like it's usually the opposite of what that strong inner critic wants you to do. That could be in the middle of an exposure. So the critic's like, see, told you you couldn't do that, Craig the critic. And you're like, No, it's compassionate enough for me to actually do push myself a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 9:16

Yeah, the fact that I did it.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Yeah, or if you are exhausted, sometimes it's okay to be like, I'm exhausted, but I'll get back on this tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

Yeah, that well, I wrote no no self-conscious, no self-compassion. Like, oh my god. It's the worst marine your way out. 100%. Well, what did I learn? Like I have a it's on my shoulder, it's part of that big tattoo on my shoulder, is a tree bending. Like I had to learn that this was about flexibility, not about brute force. And at the time, I was still kind of connected to like, no, no, I will run this over. So what I was criticizing over and over was my behavior. Now, some people will criticize their behavior. I was criticizing my avoidant behavior instead of making a little room to recognize like how I got there. And it wasn't a crime that I was avoiding. Like, yes, I needed to change that, but it wasn't like I couldn't berate myself into changing that. So that was really important. I think other people struggle because they they will criticize how they feel and what they think. See, I never felt like I'm, oh, I was scared and that was wrong. I'm anxious and that's wrong. I just I would berate my behavior in response. Other people, they will berate the fact that they are anxious at all, or if they have a thought they think they're not supposed to have, they will criticize themselves.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Yeah. So you used it as a motivator. And some people are motivated by that. Yeah. You know, some people are motivated by strong discipline, you know. That I walk past uh high rocks or a CrossFit class or a boot camp, and um, and those people are motivated by discipline because that's part of their disposition. And I'll stand outside with my Greg's pasty and be like, good for you guys.

SPEAKER_03 10:52

No, it's true.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

I'm not doing that, but you guys can.

SPEAKER_03 10:55

I I think it's interesting. I didn't expect well, I don't mind talking about me, it's fine, like in this context. I can use me as a guinea pig or example of what not to do. Uh what I recognized was if I leave this to its own devices, I will sit on the sofa and not do anything. That's true. So I was trying to address that. I was just addressing it sort of in the wrong way. And in the end, it was like, yeah, it's okay that I want to do that. It's okay that I want to say, like, it's fine if I the fact that I got here and I am now stuck on the sofa and need to change that. That's like it's okay. I need to understand how I got here and that it's okay that I got here, and I'm not gonna fix it by running this over by driving myself with things like no self-compassion. That was that was stupid. So it was very nuanced because I did have to go out and do exposures every day, and I did have to be a little bit rigid about it, which is the opposite of who I am, but I knew I needed that. That still didn't mean I should be berating myself. That's there's two different things. That is not discipline, that's self-criticism for no good reason.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Yeah, I hear you on that. I don't know if that makes any sense. Yeah, it makes loads of sense. Yeah. Yeah. For me, like my lack of I had lots of self-compassion the first time around when I was desensitizing. Doing the exposures, not compulsing with the health anxiety, things like that. But my when I got resensitized again after but writing a book on how to overcome anxiety, panic, then I became resensitized and wondered why I was resensitized and why it wouldn't go away again. I don't know why. Because you're the guy who's telling everyone how to desensitize, which I did successfully. And then I went back to because I was resensitized, and Craig the critic was like, use that as a weapon.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

And then I was wondering why I couldn't desensitize again. And the missing ingredient was I wasn't being compassionate. The first time around, why were you so kind to yourself? You're willing to be brave, go on public transport, to sit with intrusive thoughts and not react to them, to not Google even though you feel terrified, to not lie in bed and obsess over your heart rate, to do all these things. And that was okay because you were striving to do something. You I was my own cheerleader in doing difficult things. I lost the self-compassion the second time round. I'm glad I did because I learned from it and I learned the importance of it. Suddenly, it wasn't okay to be in a situation trying not to compulse. You've already been here, Craig the critic. Where is he? Is he we got the button?

SPEAKER_03 13:31

Oh, yeah, he's here.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Mick the laugh. It's Craig the critic. It wasn't okay. No, you should be past this now. Why are you here again? Whatever. And one of the biggest stumbling blocks is that a lot of people they'll find like our content or Claire Weeks or people like that, and they'll initially feel good. And why they feel good is because one, they feel seen, and two, they inadvertently are compassionate and accepting of themselves in that moment. I feel seen, and therefore I leave it alone, and all this is okay. Then they try to turn it into a thing to complete and to perfect into a technique. Yeah, so the next time they become sensitized or anxious, they misconstrue that as doing something wrong. But actually, if you look back, very similar to mine, you lost that self-compassion. It was this is no longer okay. Yeah. You know, the baseline was that you turned it off somehow, and now and no, no, no, no, no. You've got to be cool, you've got to be cool with it. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

No, I I think one of the things that we always try and I always try and start with is start where you are right in this moment. If you're struggling right now, it's really okay to say, I'm afraid, like I'm afraid right now. Like I would rather sit on my sofa or I really want to compulse right now because it's gonna, I'm I'm afraid. And I think uh job one in self-compassion is to be able to be whatever version of yourself you are right now. It doesn't mean you are accepting that version for the rest of your life, but if you don't at least acknowledge that in this very moment I am a frightened, avoidant version of Drew, then he can't ever move forward because then you don't let that version into the classroom. I always I'll you know, you gotta let the scared version of you into the classroom, or otherwise you never learn the lesson. And you're just on a loop of like this shouldn't be this way, but it is this way. So what do we do now?

SPEAKER_02 15:15

I like that. Yeah, I really like that Shalissa favorite thing said so far in this episode. Um, we'll wax lyrical a bit more, but should we have a more another Did It Anyway from the community? I've got one. Um, I've got one from oh, and I've got a question for later as well. Cool. Um, here's one. Uh there's one from the Disorder Community app. So thank you for people who signed up to that. We've got a list of Did It Anyways there. And there's one from Disorder.fm. I'll read the disordered.fm one first. This was sent in. Okay. Uh, I don't think they gave permission to use the name, but I really enjoyed this one. Hi guys, wanted to start off by saying thank you so very much for all your work and support. I'm currently up to episode 11 of Disordered and loving it. Just wanted to share my I did it anyways in a place that I know it would be understood. My children wanted McDonald's for dinner. Of course they did. I felt a lot of anticipatory anxiety, but decided now is the time to find courage and do it anyway. So I took them for a drive with me alone and even went through the drive-thru as well. All of this was an accomplishment, but to top it off or off, I did it all without my magic bottle of water. Slash did it anyway.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

That's really great. Love the magic bottle of water. That's very relatable to me. I had those similar.

SPEAKER_02 16:39

Yeah, getting the credit as well. Oh, I only did it because of my magic bottle of water. No, you did it because of you, did it, and you're willing to have the feelings. Well done. I hope you celebrated that and internalize some self-compassion.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

You know, in the self-compassion topic, people will often say to us, like like uh Blake, the original the who started off the episode with us, like that's a little one. Like, no, no, no, don't minimize that. Like, I know that maybe your friends or like your non-anxious people wouldn't understand why this is so important to you. But but that's okay. You don't have to minimize your accomplishment because uh I shouldn't I shouldn't be scared of this. No, you you you learn from that. So celebrate the fact that you can you did that and can learn from that.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

I'm just thinking about McDonald's drive-thru now.

SPEAKER_03 17:21

Josh is going out for a few minutes. I'll I'll I'll hold down the four where he goes gets a Big Mac.

SPEAKER_02 17:26

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And it's um I love that bit about accepting who you are now, right? Self-compassion is if you're sat in a movie theater, okay, ideally you want to be chilled out and watching it, but you might not be. And self-compassion is okay. Yeah, I'm sat in the movie theater sensitized. That's okay.

SPEAKER_03 17:48

Yeah, because I think if that is the version of you that you are in that moment, and this is where it gets tricky, because in more traditional mental health or therapy circles, you have to accept the person you are right now. And it's almost like give that person a big hug. Okay, fair enough. But then as you're hugging that version of yourself, you got to walk them through a really difficult experience. So accepting the person that you are in that moment doesn't mean you, oh, it's okay, let's just go home. It's fine, let's put our feet up. And I think that's where I was getting tripped up in the topic of self-compassion. I can be kind and allow myself to be who I was in that moment, which was really scared, but it didn't mean that self-compassion was coddling, like it was encouraging. All right, this is who I am right now. I can be okay with that. He can go into this lesson and learn it. Let him go learn that lesson, as opposed to, oh, it's okay. It's uh nobody understands how scared you are. Just go back to the sofa. And that's where I was getting chopped up.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

I don't know if that makes any sense, but no, it's but it makes perfect sense. I I like that a lot. It's the it's the comp it's like a compassionate cheerleader. It's like I can't take it away, but I can stand with you because I believe fully that you can do it. Yeah, I'll stand, I can only be on the sidelines, I can't be on the pitch. Can't do it, but I'll be on the sidelines and I'll walk with you down the pitch to show you that you can do it. Yeah, I know you can handle this. Yeah, which is really important. Uh I remember as well on the same topic. Um someone wrote in not so long ago, I can't remember, but it was like, every time I do something anxiety inducing, I'm often find that I cry afterwards, and I I'd be like, okay. Right. Oh. Yeah. That's okay. You did something really quite stimulating and emotionally demanding. Like, yeah, there's a mechanism in our brain that helps us kind of process that. That's okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

But I no, I'm crying, I'm doing something wrong. I'm like, it's all right. You're doing something brave.

unknown 19:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Completely okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:42

Yeah, yeah, I I get it. So, like, people like, okay, well, what does self-compassion look like? It's more like you said when we started too, it's like what it doesn't look like.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

It doesn't look like what is it, yeah. Or what self-compassion is sometimes not doing things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

I think it might even be more not doing things. Or first you got to recognize oh, this is that time where I feel like I want to berate myself or criticize myself or or repeat again that I'm the worst, I'm never gonna get this. And what's wrong with me? What's and we hear that a lot too, because this is counter counterintuitive. Go toward the fear, right? What's wrong with me? I can't get it. I listen to all the podcasts, and then when the chips are down, it all goes out the window. What's wrong with me? Nothing. You're just scared. Like you have to do a scary thing. So notice when you want to go back into the loop of what's wrong with me. Why can't I get this? I'm the what this is, I'm never gonna get better. I don't, I'm too weak for this. No, what do you not do?

SPEAKER_02 20:33

That the work starts when you're scared, but also the work starts in between exposures as well. How are you framing your metrics of success? If you build your whole world around, you know, I don't like this word recovery, if you're building your whole world around not feeling anxiety, then you're not going to be very kind to yourself if your metrics metrics of success are, oh, I had a day where I wasn't anxious, I'm doing well. No, I had a day where I was anxious, that was okay. I didn't compulse, I didn't go inwards, didn't make it the most important thing in the room. And I managed to do what non-anxious me would do, despite those feelings. And I'm proud of that, which you often hear in the Did It Anyways that was sent here. That's one fantastic, two, showing your resilience and courage and bravery, three, rewiring your brain. Four, desensitizing. Five, I would probably have a strawberry milkshake at the McDonald's drive room.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

Still fixated at McDonald's.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

I am a simple creature. You are a simple creature.

SPEAKER_03 21:39

You have described yourself as a fixed aid hoar, and now I see what's going on. He's stuck at McDonald's now.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

I might put it on the on the community app later. I'm joining for the best resources for anxiety desensitization, and it's just me drinking milkshake.

SPEAKER_03 21:56

Strawberry milkshake, like the undrinkable, they're so thick you can't even get. Of the straw? Oh my god. Why did they do that?

SPEAKER_02 22:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

Oh, I like that. I like that. It's like you could you could cement a brick wall with a you could a hundred percent. It is actually mortar just with a lot of sugar in it, the way I look at it. I don't know. You know, that thing where like if your metric is how anxious am I, that's an impossible metric. Remember, you're listening to two anxiety specialists with expensive microphones. So we are always going to default away from control strategies. So if you're still trying to feel less anxious, you want to control the feeling, you will fail because we are not wired to control our feelings. And the feelings we don't want are the ones that are more likely to come because we're pressing against them. So now you have a self-perpetuating cycle of criticism and non-self-compassion. Because I just want to be able to feel not anxious. And then when I can't achieve that, I'm clearly doing something wrong. This is never going to work. I'm screwed. I'm F. Like, yeah, and then see how it just keeps cycling. So if you pick an impossible goal, you're probably going to be pissed off at yourself for not being able to reach it. But no one can reach it.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Yeah. So it's just it's an unwinnable game.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Yeah, that's exactly right. I would like to wake up tomorrow and be able to dunk a basketball. That's an impossible goal. It just, I'm not going to be able to dunk a basketball tomorrow. Should I berate myself if I can't? No, but you might be able to dunk a basketball eventually. Yep, that yeah, true, I guess, if I practiced enough. I'll give you a peg up. Come on. Jump up.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

We'll get you dunking a basketball.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

We have not been in the same place at the same time officially. That will be our first thing we meet. What does this uh dunking basketball?

SPEAKER_02 23:34

Yeah. Um, what does self-compassion look like around uh people who don't quite understand anxiety disorders?

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Oh, I think that's a good one because people who don't understand anxiety disorders will even if they're well-meaning, will will give you feedback that is not at all helpful and sometimes hurtful. So the person who totally understands that you're okay, they get that. They do not understand why you're so afraid because they they know that there's no danger, might say things like, you know, just snap out of it. It's just in your head, it's all in your head. I don't understand why you're so afraid of that. You're fine, you're fine. And then it can lead you to think, why can't again, why can't I get this? So Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

I've I've worked with a lot of people and and and spoken to a lot of people, not necessarily in you know, in a clinical setting, but like a lot of them, particularly the OCD, there's almost like a kind of genetic nature, nurture kind of factor in it a lot of the time. It's that they'll have like parents or family members that clearly have you know that kind of type, similar type of anxiety, and they'll have their own, but there's no compassion from them because there's no empathy, and sometimes we are surrounded by people that don't have compassion and empathy. Now, do we channel that energy into people pleasing others? No, but you're still allowed compassion then, like okay, these people don't understand. Doesn't mean I need to then internalize that lack of empathy and turn it into criticisms of myself. No, we don't people please, we have to do things uh compassionately for us. Maybe it's boundaries, maybe it's a no saying no sometimes, maybe it's no, this is what my resources are now, this is what I'm doing. It's very important to look at. Um, but yeah, that your self-compassion can come up with many in many faces, you know. Um, whether it's cheerleading during a very scary moment or navigating being sensitized in a world that isn't just about your anxiety disorder, in a world that, okay, I'm trying to desensitize, but my what but my life isn't ideal at the moment. Actually, I am a parent of three kids. Actually, I'm trying to work, actually, there are things going on. Maybe I'm a carer, maybe I'm going through grief. Allow self-compassion allows bigger space in the stress jug, you know, yeah, because the biggest thing that fills up the stress drug, and trust me on this, as a therapist, is self-criticism.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Yeah, I think you're right. And it's sneaky too, because we don't sometimes we don't even know we're doing it and it's amping us up. You know, that that part about they don't understand. If your people around you don't understand anxiety disorders, yeah, they don't. And you may have to end the conversation there. Because sometimes the self-compassion thing that is a problem is I don't like myself this way, says the anxious person. And I really need you to be okay with me the way I am, because I can't be okay with me the way I am. But the person who doesn't understand an anxiety disorder will never be okay with the way you are. Even if they mean well. They're they're using logic where it doesn't uh you know apply. So sometimes being self-compassionate is I have to recognize that my friends here who love me, they just don't understand this experience, they don't understand these mechanics. I don't I I have to stop demanding that they validate this version of myself so that I can validate this version of myself.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Because Drew, you're amazing just the way you are. Here it comes.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

New was coming. I I saw a clip of Steve Irwin. Remember Steve Irwin with an American bald eagle. Oh, great, what amazing, right? He's holding, he has an American bald eagle on his arm. I don't know from how many years ago it was, and he's just, oh my god, this bird is beautiful, blah blah blah talking about the uh, and then it made a sound, and I was like, oh no. This is why this is why we use the red tail as our eagle sound.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

I miss Steve Owen. There's a guy who didn't need to do exposure therapy. No, no, but uh it's just like laughing like he's like at night, he dives into a lake at night to wrestle a one-ton crocodile and be like, and then explain to camera why they're amazing.

SPEAKER_03 27:37

I'm like, dude, what what are you doing? Just tell me they're amazing. I'll believe you. You don't have to wrestle it. It's a fight. Dude, just go on amazing, right? So, but I think Steve, it's funny when we bring up a guy like Steve Irwin. Like, everybody is so it it I think he teaches us a lesson about the nature of fear, right? So the very same thing that you might be feeling because your heart is pounding and you don't think it's supposed to be, he was probably feeling when he would dive into that lake at night with the cameras rolling to wrestle a crocodile, whatever he did. Just that he interpreted it a different way. His he saw the physiology as a good thing, whether it was a motivator or it was excitement, or this is what he loved to do, and he was in awe of the nature. Okay. So, like, maybe also he he was documenting like it wasn't he, I'm sure he said this.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Like he his fear was like not being like a good enough dad and stuff like that, like different fears.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

True, like true, or not fulfilling his mission. He would say, like, I'm here to preserve the wildlife on the planet. He felt so strongly about that that I maybe he was driven to not fail in that mission.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

So we all have something that drives us, but yeah, even Steve Owen, who will wrestle crocodiles 100%. Well, what a legend to hear what he was. Um, let's have another dinner anyway from the community. What we got?

SPEAKER_03 28:53

Uh, we got an audio one, so what the hell? Let's play it. Is this an audio from someone?

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Adrew and Josh, Tommy from Canada.

SPEAKER_03 28:59

Sorry, Tommy from Canada.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Go ahead, you were saying. I was just gonna say, is this an audio from someone who submitted it at disorder.fm.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

Yes, as a matter of fact, it was. He went to disorder.fm and he hit the little blue voicemail button.

SPEAKER_02 29:09

Okay, excellent.

SPEAKER_03 29:10

Very good.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Adrew and Josh, Tommy from Canada. You can use my name. I have a unique did it anyway to share. I did it anyways before I realized that I was uh dealing with an Oh, by the way, Tommy from Canada.

SPEAKER_03 29:26

We're gonna meet in the Olympic gold medal game. Just saying. So get ready.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Many months ago, I had signed up for a motorcyc a two-day motorcycle racing course, and a few weeks prior, I developed a lot of these physical scary sensations. Um however, the motorcycle course wouldn't give me my money back, so I made a decision instead of wasting the money, I would show up and I would I would try to do the two days. If I got through one day, then great. So there I was the first day uh along the track, suited up, feeling many, many physical symptoms. And at this point now, feeling a lot of anxiety. However, um, I focused on the techniques they were teaching. I stayed in the moment. You kind of have to when you're on a motorcycle driving around a track. And about halfway through the day, my physical symptoms and my anxiety started to diminish. I made it through the second day, I had a great time, um, and this made me realize that what I was struggling with was likely anxiety related and not uh another physical ailment. I have received a generalized anxiety disorder diagnosis, um, and I have been listening to your podcast ever since. So I thought that it anyway would um would be great for the community. Those two days riding the motorcycle, uh, I realize now listening to the podcast, I really ended up implementing a lot of those techniques uh that you and uh so sorry, Josh and Drew, you guys discuss on your podcast. And I've been trying to implement and think back to that uh situation ever since. Thank you so much for the content you're producing, and uh a big hello from uh from your friends up north. Bye-bye.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

That runs. I love that. A retrospective did it anyway. Oh, oh, actually, I uh I did do this.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

I've already started doing this. Well done, Tommy. Yeah, I remember I did it a few months ago. I'm gonna share it. So what final are you meeting him in? Uh in the ice hockey final. Like uh honestly, we won't. Oh, yeah, you guys play the ice hockey over there. Yeah, yeah, I will admit. I don't know who's gonna beat Team Canada because they're really good, but I gotta talk some smack anyway.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Um in my head, it's just people gliding around and then beating each other up. That's all I managed to see.

SPEAKER_03 31:45

It's ridiculous. This I haven't seen much of the tournament, but like you know, the poor Italian team. We don't play there might be people, but they don't play hockey and they're trying to.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

It's just a plot device of beating each other up. It's like people attending a one-year-old's birthday. You ever done this? Oh, my one-year-old kid is having a birthday party. You can't remember that. I know it's an excuse for adults to get together and make poor choices. That's what it is. That's a great thing. And that's what ice hockey is.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Wow, I just never never conceived of the sport that way. It's a reason to get together and make bad choices. Probably. Probably not wrong.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

I'm just jealous because I can't ice skate.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

Tommy did a great job here. If we bring self-compassion into his did it anyway, which thanks for sharing, man, is he was able to look back and instead of doing that, that can go two ways. That can go like, whew, I don't know what happened. I I made it. I I made it through. And then there's no ability to go look back and say, well, what did I learn from that? In retrospect, instead of saying, I don't know, I made it through, my anxiety went away, who I dodged another bullet. It was, oh, what I realized was I was actually doing some of the things you guys talk about in the podcast. I might say technically he was doing the attention thing that we talked about in episode 144. Like, I'm really anxious and not feeling so good right now, but I gotta pay attention to this motorcycling because this is dangerous. So, like, I that was actually dangerous, so I got to pay attention here, and sure enough, attention drifts over and like how I feel becomes less important, and bam, you feel better.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

So and he allowed the autonomic state shift to occur. Yes, which is great. As you know, factually, your anxiety doesn't disappear when you stare at it. So, a very self-compassion thing to do is like it's okay, you can turn your back on it. Yeah, let it be there, just turn your back on it, it's not worth it, and look at do what non-anxious you would do and focus on that, knowing that that will switch in its own time. Very compassionate, that isn't it? To sit and simmer in uncertainty. What a compassionate thing to do.

SPEAKER_03 33:40

Because that's life. Whereas so, you know, we're uncertain about most things in life, really.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

So uh yeah, and particularly with a misfire and threat responses going now, something bad's gonna happen now. Yeah, nah. I'm willing to roll the pentamillion gone or whatever it's called.

SPEAKER_03 33:56

Yeah, but you gotta let the scared version of you into that experience, otherwise, that version of you cannot learn from the experience. I feel like that is I don't know why in my practice has come up a lot in the last six or eight months. Like, I feel like that's a key aspect. If you're gonna kick the anxious, scared, defective air quotes version of you, not getting the right version, if you're gonna kick that version of you in the face every time they try to walk into the classroom, what do you think? There's nobody's gonna learn. So, like, please don't kick the scared version of yourself in the face. Let them into the classroom so they can learn. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

Um, yeah, I like that a lot. Um, I've got it anyway from the disordered community app. Um, if you want a few extras and stuff from the podcast, feel free to come check it out. We don't hide anything in there, it's just a place to share wins and stuff. You want a bit of extra support? Uh, and it's very compassionate in there, actually. Um, also, as well, we're going to do a compassion round table. So we used to do roundtables, uh, really enjoyed them. Uh, if you want to join along, come along. And um, if if it's in the app, you obviously have to um join for that month if you want, but it's cheaper than what it would be as a for that a round table usually is. And we'll be discussing compassion, maybe face-to-face, uh, around the metaphorical round table. And that's how what date's had that happening that is March 5th, 2026, if you're listening in the future. Uh March 5th, 2026, and that it will be at 3 p.m.

SPEAKER_03 35:24

UK. 2 p.m. UK. 2 p.m. UK. 9 a.m. Eastern in the US.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Yeah, and then we'll obviously have it, you can watch it back if you want to. But anyway, this is um I did it anyway from that I really enjoyed from the community app. Uh hi everyone, been avoiding riding my Peloton for the last week or so and been taking walks outside. Not totally sure why, but I was anxious when I considered riding. But today I said, screw it, and got on the bike for 30 minutes, came in first place, all that adrenaline needed to go somewhere, then finished with 10 minutes of stretching and five minutes of meditation. Am I still anxious? Yes. What's the point of exercising to get rid of my anxiety? No. In brackets, what kind of who am I kidding? But so proud of myself for doing it anyway.

SPEAKER_03 36:12

Oh, well done. Not only took the chance of like pedaling while anxious, but smoked the competition, dominated.

SPEAKER_02 36:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love that. Yeah, love it.

SPEAKER_03 36:20

You winning is all that matters.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Completely go 180 on the compassion thing. Yeah, yeah. Uh no, well done. And that um there's lots of little things like that in there. Should you uh if does it if it ever perks your interest? Yeah, um, but the general message of the episode is you know, it's okay to apply compassion in things when you are there. Oh also, compassion means not doing things, not listening to critical internal ruminations. If you've got a loud inner critics going, you're not doing this, you should do that, you should be better, man, yeah, yeah, yeah. Then it's a compassionate thing to actually not engage with that. How do I do self-compassion? Well, not doing that. Yeah, not doing that, not listening to unreasonable things, not listening to criticisms, whether they're in your imagination or from people around you. It's about the doing and the not doing, being your own cheerleader.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

People will often say, I can be nice to other people, I just can't do it with myself.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

So one of the most common things I hear.

SPEAKER_03 37:28

It's crazy. We we're terrible. We, I'll just say the royal way, the humans, we're terrible at it. We can be very compassionate to other people, but then we think it doesn't apply to us. So if you're gonna take some practical tip out of today, experiment. Apply the same compassion rules to yourself as you would to a friend or a loved one or a family member or even a stranger that needs your help and you would be kind to that person. Just recognize the struggle, and it's okay to make room for the struggle and not try to berate yourself through it. That doesn't mean you wouldn't do that. And as far as like the rumination of like uh, you know, it's even the mistakes, like, oh, I I I blew it. I didn't, I was supposed to do an exposure today and I can't and I bailed at the last minute. Like, okay, but then that moment is over now. And just like if a child spills their milk, you you can't keep going over like that. You spill the milk. Okay, yeah, hey, it happened. Let's clean it up. Move on to the cleanup, please. And like be nice to yourself. You don't have to beat yourself up for the spilled milk. Go on to the cleanup as soon as you can.

SPEAKER_02 38:21

And literally no one benefits from it either. Who benefits from you criticizing yourself? It's not accountability. It is not.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

It is not accountability, it is not discipline, it is not motivation, it is not. None of that is. And again, it's very nuanced because you can reflect on what you know. Well, then what? I never learned from my experiences? Yeah, but that's different. It's very different in saying, like, you know, uh, I don't know. Well, okay, maybe I made a bad choice today. People often say, like, well, how do I know if I'm avoiding? Well, you don't all the time. So make your choice, and then tomorrow you might notice, yeah, I probably avoided there. I didn't make a good choice. Okay, what can I do different next time? Is much better than like, get off that sofa maggot, you know, like you don't have to go drill instructor on yourself. It doesn't change what you did. So, like, just try to take it the lesson with you.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Sounds like your first book, dude.

SPEAKER_03 39:06

Oh, 100%, man. Get off sofa maggot maggot, like your Arly Ermie on yourself, you know. It doesn't help. So there's really no value in it at all, I think.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

You know, yeah, no, that's I think it's a nice thing to end on. Disorder.fm, send in your did it anyways, uh, and your questions, really enjoy that. Uh, I think it's time to get a guest on soon as well, Drew. We should do that. That'd be really nice. There's no shortage of people. Thank you for yeah, thank you for tuning in uh on Fridays. If you want to follow us on social media, I'm anxiety Josh. Drew is the dot anxious dot truth.

SPEAKER_03 39:40

And uh yeah, we'll catch you here every Friday. Yeah. Hey, if you have anxiety bracelets at sell, hit us up. You can be a guest. I'm joking. You'll never be a guest.