Same Time Next Week - Anxiety Recovery in the "Gaps" (Episode 150)

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Magnus has been locked in his annex for two years. He discovers the wellness optimization brosphere. So he's trying to get out of his annex by maxing his way out of it. He refuses to see vulnerability as okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Magnus would try to do the things that his new therapist Josh asks him to do without actually being afraid.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

And Lea Sue is someone who hides their anxiety. The use of social media, AI chatbots has become her go-to compulsion thing.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Built her identity on being the person who will find the correct wellness and holistic protocol to fix how you feel. Now she has to learn to not fix how she feels.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

When you're bombarded with algorithmic slot, that's kind of what constructs your identity. And that's what a lot of youngsters have got to deal with now as well. Welcome to Disorder. This is episode 150 entitled Same Time Next Week for Anxious Case Studies. My name is Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist, author who specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I write books on the topic, one of which I'll be talking about today.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

And my favorite time of the week is often recording this podcast with my wonderful co-host, who is uh Drew Linsolata in New York, also a therapist that specializes in treating anxiety and anxiety disorders, also a former sufferer of these things, an author myself, someone sometimes co-author with this other guy with the other microphone. Uh, what else? Psychoeducator, advocate, you know, podcaster, all that stuff. And yeah, this was always so fun. Like lately, we've been doing them live in our little community app, and like we got a nice little audience watching us record today, so it's gonna be good. What are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Uh, we're gonna talk about same time next week. This is one of my projects that I've been working on for several years. Now, before I do talk about that, actually, someone who I know and work with has um been reading 7% slower and it's really helping them. And for someone who re you know, in a day and age didn't like compassion, I thought 7% slower out was actually a very compassionate book. So yeah, thank you. It is, it's like indirect compassion. Go easy.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

I appreciate how you like slid in a plug for one of my books before we talk about your well, no, it was just it was just something that happened this week.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

So yeah, that's all good. If it hadn't have happened, I'd have been like, screw you.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

But there we go. All right, so same time next week.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Yeah, same time next week. Really excited for it. But I wanted to talk about not just the book, but the case studies that and the topics that come up in it with you to see what you think and what we think as therapists. Um, it's a celebration of existing, who we are in between gaps, people with anxiety disorders. And I look at, like my last book, four different case studies. You've got um, and we'll start with each one. And I think I was wanted to hear what you thought of each one. It looks at the hurdles to recovery and desensitization and getting to a good place as well, because not everything, like we often say, not everything is an anxiety disorder. But if you do have an anxiety disorder, things that outside of those were that world can come in uh and get in the way of that, particularly in an age where we're obsessed with optimization and uncertainty. Uh, and that's what um and that's what the book's about. It's dead funny, and I'm really happy about it. Um before we bang on about it though, if anyone uh pre-orders it before May the 14th, um you will receive an Unravel Your Intrusive Thoughts ebook for free. And you will also receive Josh's morning anxiety audio, which is for anyone with morning anxiety. I've recorded a five-minute audio. These are for the people that wake up and ruminate straight away. Scan, check how you feel, how am I doing better? Rather than do that, techniqueify my audio, put put me in your ears, and I'll talk you through the first five minutes of your day. It's mostly me ranting about what not to do, and sometimes I'm eating Wheatabics in the background, but it's much better than catastrophizing about your impending demise. So if you do pre-order that, pop me an email and I will send you the goodies straight away. Well, as soon as I can. Uh, but yeah, I'm banging on about that. So, yeah, the first one, Drew, is a story about Magnus. So Magnus is is a young lad uh who lives in a very wealthy area, very bit lost, and I'm called out to help him with agrophobia or agoraphobia, something that we're both very familiar with. Now, let's say there were no hurdles to uh agrophobia. Drew, if there were no hurdles, no interventions, and you could just hypothetically do really well with agrophobia, how would you describe it? How what would be the the the quick elevator kind of description of this is how you overcome agrophobia? What would you say?

SPEAKER_01 4:58

Well, agrophobia is what happens when you stop doing things or you shrink your life because you're afraid of how you're gonna feel when you do certain things. So you stop doing those, your life gets smaller. So you would have to start doing them again to trigger the bad feelings, learn that you can handle them, learn not to be afraid of them anymore, and then your life gets big again. That's it. That's that's the the 15-second version.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Yeah, and it also takes for a lot of people gradual exposure. Sure. You know, so what does you know, what is gradual, what would you say gradual exposure looks like?

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Oh, we start from the bottom up, like we don't start at the very top. If you're couchbound, we don't go to a world cruise as your first exposure, we start with the smaller things so you can get the hang of it and gain a footing and some confidence.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Yeah, and that's obviously it's something that we're very familiar with. Now, Magnus has been locked in his annex for two years. Yeah, you know, and what Magnus tries to do is that rather than obviously discovering the evidence stuff and the the accessible information that helps, you know, you and I and many others, we like to think that our podcast is a good resource for this too. He discovers the wellness optimization brosphere. So he's trying to get out of his annex by maxing his way out of it. And this is what I see now, particularly in youngsters. And so he's trying to alpha his way out of something because he refuses to see vulnerability, particularly as a young man, and particularly in light of many things that we've seen recently in the media, which is why I'm delighted this book has been time so well. He refuses to see vulnerability as okay, you know, and part of what we do there is that his exposure isn't to trigger the amygdala and do all that. Yes, it is, but his hurdle to that, what might you guess would be the hurdle to someone who is perhaps taking information about vulnerability and and maxing themselves? What do you think some kind of hurdles might be, Drew, to for someone with agrophobia trying to do that?

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah, I think the the primary hurdle, because I see it every day, it's not just a fictional character, is if you are afraid of being vulnerable or can't really feel afraid or weak or or any of those things, it's just allowing that state to begin with. So, like the problem would probably be that Magnus would try to do the things that his new therapist Josh asks him to do without actually being afraid. Like he should be able to just power through it and overcome it and alpha his way over the top of that and never feel vulnerable or weak or uncertain.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

Yeah. Also with Magnus as well, he's fallen, not his fault, but when you look, is you when you'll go to with like very long waiting lists and no access to therapy, your go-to is social media. So for these two years, he's tried to optimize his way out of feelings, which is something even you and I have fallen trapped to many years ago.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

He's supplements, magnesium, all this stuff. Don't get me wrong, I spoke about magnesium last week. I've had so many messages about cornflakes in the bath, by the way. Even my own mother listened to the podcast. She was like, that is disgusting. I can't get that image out of my head.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

I'm glad to see that we can ruin your mother's day. That's good. Good for us.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And um what what it is is he's using all these things to try and get rid of feelings. So, how many of people listening to this podcast, people in the in the live uh chat or or people that have tried to use something like a supplement to get rid of feelings, to completely get rid of what ultimately is a feeling of vulnerability? Yeah, you know, I've done that. And I find youngsters particularly um everyone that's involved in social media stuff, but he gets embroiled in that. He's also got other things going on a Magnus, obviously not going to reveal too much, but he's got a very strict father, very emotionally conservative, not interested in feeling stiff upper lip, you know, do all these things. You must, you know, seize the day, strength your way through things. And my job is to work with Magnus to try and get him to overcome his agrophobia. But like Drew and I often say, not everything is just an anxiety disorder. So and so many fun things happen on that journey and complex things as well.

SPEAKER_01 9:14

Sure. Poor Magnus would be vulnerable to that too, because if he's looking for help, because he can't get direct help until Josh shows up, then he it nobody finds us first. I feel like no one finds disordered first, they find all the much bigger, popular wellness brosphere first, and then they have to kind of wait through that, and then they ultimately wind up in a place like this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

So yeah. Well, I did an experiment the other day. I went on social media. A lot of this book comes on social media too. If you type in calming, how to calm anxiety, six out of twenty reels I saw was plunging your head into a bucket of ice. Yeah, yeah, 100%. So and and how many people are typing that in to TikTok, Instagram, stuff like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is really, really interesting. Um, in fact, there's a did it anyway from disordered.fm about agrophobia. So, you know, I was hoping Magnus kind of takes this uh inspiration. You ready to hear it? Yeah, let's do it. Oh, so Julia sent this to disordered.fm. Um, hi guys, I wanted to share a winslash thank you. I've struggled with agrophobia for almost 20 years now. Listening to your show and reading your books has equipped me with the skills as well as the language to not only tackle the anxiety, but to understand it as well. I found myself recently sitting at a cafe in a new city and new state that I drove to myself and realized that there was a time that I couldn't even go into a grocery store and shop. Yet there I was, casually living my life and doing challenging things, and I had the knowledge that it didn't matter if I suddenly panicked. If I freaked out and became overwhelmed in this cafe, I wouldn't need to rush away to my safe zone. I could just be uncomfortable for a bit, and it would pass, and my day would continue on, and I would never have gotten that confidence if it wasn't for you guys. Well, we appreciate that and what we do. I know I'm supposed to take the credit for all the exposures, yes, you are, and I will. But if I didn't have the language to understand it all, and the funny little quips and Craig the critics, and they're my favorite. The rocks, it doesn't matter in my head from Drew. I don't think it was ever gotten to the point of he's delighted, can see in his favor, to the point of being desensitized. So, from the bottom of my heart, thank you so very much. Keep on kicking ass, guys. You've got a whole community out there who loves what you do. Although I really like this for you, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 11:39

Big round of applause for that one. And we gotta throw in my what if you panic in the cafe?

SPEAKER_02 11:48

You've made it, you've made his afternoon. I'm so happy.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Like the ticket in right now. Not gonna get any better than that. So thank you, Julia. Uh that was really good. That was really awesome. Love it.

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Yeah, that's so lovely. Um what else do we got? Oh, yeah, so second character is Leah Sue. You've been introduced to Leah Sue. What have you uh have you described Leah Su so far, true?

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Leah Sioux is triggering me when I read about Leah Sue. She's a she's a wellness influencer. And as soon as I started reading about her, I'm like, this is my friend's book, and I hate this character. Like I'm developing a hate right away. I felt bad. But uh I can't wait to see how it plays out, though, you know? Um, because not only is she falling into the trap of like, well, there's a technique and a uh a protocol for everything. When I feel bad, I I fix it with a special protocol, but she's the person who wants to show the world her protocol. She's teaching wants to teach people how to calm themselves and regulate their nervous systems. And I was like shaking as I was reading it. So excellent, brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

There's any other excuse to pre-order the book, it triggered Drew. So there we go. 100%.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

Yeah, no.

SPEAKER_02 13:02

So Leah Sue is actually someone who is a wellness influencer. Obviously, in the book, it's a lot of it's fiction lies and things like that, but you know, it represents some people that you know who come into the therapy room. And Leah Sue is someone who hides their anxiety through overconfidence, helping others, trying to be the fixer, trying to be the go-to, which is often what we see, particularly in our community. I can name about eight people, uh, very, very uh um, popular people as well. And it's um it's it's a really lovely story arc because it's as a therapist, you've got to kind of understand who the person is underneath all of that. And what you've got, Leah Sue, is actually someone with very um severe chronic OCD. So someone who struggles with uncertainty in a lot of things, relationship OCD, uh health anxiety, etc. And the use of social media and AI chatbots has become um her go-to compulsion thing.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

Throughout the book, we do reference something called Therapy, which is an AI chatbot. Um, I've had to just make up my own name, but I think people can piece together certain things, also as well as there's actual therapy bots out there now. Oh, yeah like doing more and more. Uh uh and people with OCD who crave certainty, or anyone with anxiety disorders craves uncertainty, but particularly people with themes of OCD. Um, we work with Lee Yesue to kind of unpick why why that's there, and you start to develop way more empathy and compassion for what is initially quite an irritating character, yeah. But then you start to understand why. Actually, as young's not this is what she's born into the work, you know, into a time off of, which is you're taught to optimize and show, and it's all about how showing how you know a curated version of yourself, and part of what it does is shows that therapy is you know, unpicking that curation and celebrating who you are in the uncertainty underneath it all. It's a really cool um character to write about. So if you can relate to that, you might like enjoy Leah Sue's stuff.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

I could see where for Lea Sue, one of the big challenges or the obstacle for treatment might be an identity issue. Like she has built her identity on being the person who will find the correct wellness and holistic protocol to fix how you feel. Now she has to learn to not fix how how she feels. That would seem like it's gonna be a big conflict. But then who am I if I'm not the ice pack and you know, Epsom salt person? Leave my Epsom salts alone. I like putting them in my back. I'm thinking I'm with the call with the corn flakes.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

Yeah. Uh no, but it's interesting, it makes you reflect because what constructed your identity? I looked at some stats the other day. The average time in social media for a youngster or people growing up when they're is seven, eight, seven hours a day, something like that. Five to seven, depending on the day, whether it's school or work, college, things like that. For me, what constructed my identity, hanging out with friends, yeah, watching movies, sports, stuff like that. But they were slow pickings. When you're bombarded with algorithmic slop, seven, five, six, seven hours a day, that's kind of what constructs your identity, and that's what a lot of youngsters have got to deal with now as well. And when wellness and mental health stuff is curated and commodified on social media, that's when you end up with someone like Leo. Really cool story that I loved um writing about then. Demonstrate how I would work with someone like that.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

I can see where your readers and our listeners in our community would maybe feel a little bit of a camaraderie with this character because we are seeing more and more and more. I think it's not a secret, and people don't keep it a secret, that it's now a a viable option or a standard option is to turn your own mental health into an identity and a side hustle or main or a main hustle. So this character may have been caught up in that a little bit, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

I get it. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. That's a that's a really good point. Yeah. Um, but yeah, no, Leo's really interesting. It lots of laughs in that, and it gets really sad and deep as well. Sure. You know, there's people are human, you know. Um, we can all laugh stuff. My favorite chapter with Lea Sue is when I teach her mindfulness. I haven't gotten that things that all the things that go not only through her head, but goes go through my head during mindfulness.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

I share with you what comes back to skip ahead to that one. Uh yeah, very good.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Um the next one, if I let's have a did it anyway. Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Let's do an audio did it anyway. I got one here that's really awesome, all the way from Bulgaria. So let's check this one out. Excellent.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Hello, my name is Alice, and I'm from Bulgaria, and I wanted to share a did it anyway experience. That was probably the hardest experience for me in all my five years of having this panic disorder and emetophobia. Uh so I usually go into episodes each month for like five, six days to ten in a row where I don't know where I am because my quota is always very high and I'm just in a non-stop anxiety, like stress uh fight or flight mode. Uh last month, uh on February 5th, I think, one of my colleagues from the opera that I didn't actually know uh had just seen around, texted me, Do you want to go to karaoke? And at that moment it's day five of high anxiety. Uh and I was like, you know what? Yeah, sure, I want to. And he says, I'm gonna pick you up with my car. Mind you, this is a this is an almost a stranger for me. And I'm like, okay, fine, pick me up with your car. And then he picked me up. I was feeling like shit. I hadn't eaten almost anything in the past few days. My anxiety was like through the roof, but I did end up going and having so much fun. And that also led to a grand great, sorry, great friendship that he is now one of my best friends in life and one of the greatest people I know. So, yes, I did it anyway, and I'm keeping up the work because the experience is always worth it. Everything in life is an experience, so every each one, even the bad ones, are worth it. And thank you for your podcast. You're very helpful to people like me who can't like get treated well enough in therapy. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Wow. That is on so many levels, right? And like a great friendship starts. That was great.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

How is how is that values driven, Drew? Tell me.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Oh, I'm gonna go, like, you know what? I'm gonna go do a thing that actually is meaningful to me. I'm tired of being stuck in the fear. I'm gonna challenge that and go towards something meaningful to me. And sure enough, a friendship comes from it. Like, good things happen when you do scary shit on purpose. It's really great.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

So good. Well done for for doing that. Although you didn't disclose what you sang. So that's I'm really an Alice.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

We're gonna need you to fill us in. Send another message in and tell us what you're saying. I I thought that she said a colleague from the opera. Did I hear that correctly? So, like at first, I'm like, was this an opera singer at karaoke? Man, we'd want to see that. So, Alice, I'm sorry if I misheard that, but also thank you for sharing. Really great.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

So, yeah. No, that's really cool. What we don't know is that an opera singer sang regulate by Warren G.

SPEAKER_01 20:38

Uh, where is that? Is that up here? Regulate. There it is. I would pay to hear an opera singer do that.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Singing it in a falsetto.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Very good. Thank you for sharing. See, good things happen if you are willing to challenge your fear or stand up to it. So well done. I thought, you know what? I'm tired. I was feeling like shit, but like I'm done. I'm five days into this. I ain't doing this again. I'm going out to karaoke with a stranger. Yeah, new person. Love for. Yeah. Love for very brave. Anyway, all right, let's move on. Who's next? Who's next to the next?

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Oh, oh, we've got Reuben Kane. I love this story. It's one of my favorite ones. Reuben Kane is a middle-aged, retired boxer who's has gambling issues and is estranged from his family due to said gambling issues. Uh, by the way, in the book, I talk about all these stats of things about things compulsive and destructive behaviors and people and stuff like that. But the inspiration came from this with we're in the YouTube generation now, aren't we? Where there's YouTube fighters, YouTubers fighting prize fighters or whatnot, you know, this old macho nonsense, which just does my head in. Yeah. If we can just normalize playing Dungeons and Dragons as being Alpha, the world would be a better place. Anyway, um, and I just thought there's all this stuff, you know, TikTokers, YouTubers. All these bros and all that, and like and they fight oh, you remember people like for like Mike Tyson and all these people, and they're all there in tech, giving him a payday to go all that. And I just thought, wouldn't it be great to intertwine a story of the opposite? You never see the other opposite the end of the story, though instead of like the popular with the camera.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

That's right. Instead of the popular YouTuber or TikToker, let's let's look at the retired middle-aged guy, his part.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Yeah, I thought that was really in the retired veteran. He was good in his day. Yeah, and that was his identity. And then we look I love the story because the guy doesn't even know how to work a phone, and he comes because he's been offered a prize flight, mega money, clear all his gambling debts, but the guy can't put on his boxing gloves because he's afraid. Scared.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

I you know, it was really uh he's my favorite character so far. The fact that he's sitting with his boxing gloves, I thought was a little bit like I'm not crying, you're crying. It's good.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Oh, that I I I absolutely love writing that. It's like, and he wants help to put his gloves on so he can fight again. Yep. He wants to fight this future show. But the re the story is not for the money, not for the gambling. He learned, he's he hit rock bottom and he realized what his values are. Yeah, and his values are reconnecting with his family and all that stuff. Um, you know, if you if you if you felt you're crying going, well, wait till you get to the end of that one. It's uh oh great. I loved it. Absolutely loved it.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

I feel like Ruben's gonna be a redemption, a story of redemption by going through fear. It's a redemption arc, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Yeah, and and it also talks about shame. How often do we hear about shame come up with anxiety disorders?

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Oh, all the time, constantly. I mean, and yeah, you kind of portrayed it too in your first session with Ruben. I won't give too much of it away, but you know, there's a guy who has fought for a living. Gotta be a brave mofo, right? He's willing to get punched in the face, and now suddenly he can't put on his gloves without panicking. Like, ooh, shame.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

We hear that, we hear that from people all the time, whether it's not just boxing, but like in general, like, you know, I used to be high flying, had a good job, I was the confident one in the family, I was the fixer. People used to come to me, I was the rock, and then that all suddenly all changes. And then when anxiety and anxiety disorders infiltrate a very kind of uh when it infiltrates an identity that you've held on to, and a very kind of singular identity you've had to hold on to for a long time, there with that comes shame. Yeah, you know, you you were the one with high potential, you were the one that people looked up to, and it's just like that story kind of taps into for people as well. Actually, it's not all about that, it's about learning to have multiple facets of yourself, and yeah, it was one of my favorites to write. Actually, yeah, maybe joint favorite one to write, but that's a fun one. Also, there's just loads of little nods to Rocky, and because I love Rocky.

SPEAKER_01 24:50

Who doesn't? I mean, in the end, so very cool. Well, I'm looking forward to the rest of that story. Yeah, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

That's a good one. Uh, I fancy another did it anyway before we talk about the last character. Have you got uh from the community app? I do. I want to have one community app with there, but you know, you can always join whenever. But um there was a good one we we we saw the other day.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

I I have to read this one because it's near and dear to my heart. Ready? So we won't say this person's name, but this person in our community said, I'm happy to report that, despite feeling anxious this morning, I took the Long Island Railroad. I know the Long Island Railroad well, to Manhattan. This was part of my planned exposure for today, which I scheduled with my therapist. I came very close to canceling, but chose to act according to my values instead. I need to travel to Boston next month for my daughter's college graduation, and doing these kinds of exposures is helping me get there, hopefully, so I can be present for such an important moment in her life. The train ride was nothing like I feared. It wasn't completely anxiety free, but I handled it, and once I stepped out of the train, was even happy to be surrounded by so many people instead of hiding in my home. I even had my virtual therapy session right from Penn Station, woohoo, which I think is really great. Love the way she ended that. Woohoo.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

That is so good. That's so good. That's so good. That's someone determined. I love I love that.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Talk about values driven that you know, exposure. I need to get to my daughter's graduation. I want to be there for her, values, and I I don't want to live with the fear anymore. I want to go toward what really matters. Really great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

It's also a great example as well of anticipatory anxiety, always lies.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

100%, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Actually, I was on the rail uh railway and uh wasn't as bad as all that the buildup to it.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Yeah, yeah. What if I can't? The question is always in anticipatory anxiety. I think I might not be able to handle it. It will it will be too much, it will overtake me, it'll be a disaster. Then I will try to solve that future fear by looping through it again and again for five days before. No, no, no, no. I'm scared because I'm gonna do a scary thing, and I'm gonna get on that train. I love that this person was like thrilled to be in Penn Station, which I mean they've renovated it, but it's still Penn Station, and like that was better than being home alone in fear. Yeah, so awesome. Yeah, really great.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Thank you for sharing. So someone's written in the chat. What if it was more like wooing?

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Oh, like Ric Flair, woo, the nature boy. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 27:22

Excellent, excellent. Um, and and the final character of the book is someone called Miriam. This is probably one of my favorite ones. Uh, Miriam is someone who's training to be a therapist a bit later on in life. Um actually, no, probably yeah, after another career, let's say, an unconventional career. Miriam used to um be a sex worker and still kind of does things like that, whether it's digitally and online. And it I it's a character that I don't that poses the question who can be a therapist. And I love writing this because your initial stereotypes of what a therapist can be. And one of my favourite characters is she's the funniest by a mile, um, based on an amalgamation of many people I've worked over the years, and Miriam struggles with imposter syndrome. So I'm training, she's in currently in the middle of training, she has anxiety, she doesn't speak up in class, she hides, she hides behind jokes, she hides behind this false confidence. And this applies to anyone who has imposter syndrome, you know, the plot is just a plot device as such, and one I really enjoyed. But it's someone who sees self-doubt as a negative, and one of the main messages I like is that I love self-doubt. I think it's one of your major things to have. If you go into things with self-doubt, there are so many more positives than when you go into something fully assured, whether it's anxiety disorder exposures or whether it's just life things, a new job, a new relationship, a new chapter in your life, changing things. Um, I talk about there's a great chapter called Who Gets to Be a Therapist. So throughout the book, you have the discussions between me and my supervisor and all the stuff, or my self-doubts about being a therapist and if I'm good enough. And there's a nice conclusion there that, like, and I convey this to you, Drew, someone who's a fellow therapist, never lose your self-doubt because I would only ever see a therapist who had some degree of self-doubt because it means they're always striving to be better, they're always striving to learn more, they're always holding themselves to account, and they're always trying to go through with a you know constructively critical lens to make you the best person to be a therapist. But this can apply to any job role to any person. But often people see self-doubt as weakness, and again, it's a not uh against the optimized world and the optimized state. There's no such thing as perfection. So if you're a perfectionist, you'll love this character as well as the book, because there's a few unhinged rants in there too.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

I think self-doubt is a good topic too, because self-doubt it can lead leave you open to curiosity and exploration. And it's like the beginner's mind, right? I can I can look for different things. If I'm super assured and I never doubt myself, and I am a hundred percent convinced that I got it all nailed already, I'm not gonna be curious about anything. I'm just gonna see the world through one lens and that is it. So, in a way, self-doubt is maybe the healthier version or leaning toward a healthier version of self-criticism. Not the same. Doubt and criticism are not the same thing. So, like, hey, maybe I can get better at this. Maybe I don't know everything about this. Love that. I think it's a great way to be.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, what a great description.

SPEAKER_01 30:47

Do my best.

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Man, that's nice. What time are we on? Do you have to leave? No, I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

I I got another 10 minutes or so I can play if we want. Yeah, we can do things like that.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

Do we have any questions from the community or anything lined up? That might be nice to answer.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Well, why don't we because we do have a live audience, and since you are writing about being a therapist, your own self-doubt in a therapy and things of that nature, one of our live studio audience members just said, What's the difference between a psychologist and a therapist? I mean, I could can answer.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Really good, really, really good question. Excellent question, I think.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

I mean, I can answer it in the US. I'm not sure how it's going to be in the UK, but in most US states, a psychologist is somebody that has a PhD, a doctoral degree, and is licensed to practice psychology. Whereas therapists tend to be, you can have a PhD and be a therapist as well, but you're you are a master's level clinician, a master's degree level clinician. I don't know what the difference is in the UK. Similar?

SPEAKER_02 31:39

Similar, yeah. Uh, I think you have to be a doctor as well. Uh, and from as a psychologist, you learn because it's on uh like they're seen as as doctors, you need to know a lot about things. So psychotherapists like me, I specialize in a couple of modalities. You know, in the UK, it's usually, you know, if you're a you're a counselor or a psychotherapist, they're very interchangeable. My definition is, you know, if you train in one modality, you're a counselor, you know, regardless. So some people train in person-centered, some people trained in gestalt, things like that. Uh, and again, loosely, this is my definition, uh, shared by a few or by some people and my training provider. You're a psychotherapist when you specialize in a few modalities, two or more, so you can draw upon different modalities that you're trained in. And a psychologist is often trained in many modalities and and has a lot of the kind of uh the the top-down physiological and psychological understanding of the brain and and psychological phenomena, and they can dip into different ones. Um, so yeah, I mean that's the difference. It's a really good question.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

That's an excellent question. And psychologists tend to be research-based too. That PhD comes after you write a thesis that's research-based. A side D is a little more practical, but so I think we're more the master's level clinicians here are more practical, whereas the the doctoral level clinicians tend to be a little bit more research background. And you know, I tried to train in Gestalt, but there was no one in the other chair. See what I did there? We on the soundboard, I don't have a rim shot. Play something, it doesn't matter. There you go, ready.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

Yeah, oh my god. That was good. That was a good one. Uh American colleague. Yeah, what's the difference between a psychotherapist and a counselor? And they say about 40 bucks. Oh, sorry, my mom's trying to ring me. That's another butum. That's how you can answer your mom if you need to. I'm not answering her live on the podcast, no.

SPEAKER_01 33:37

That's a good point. Uh hi, Josh is mom. Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 33:41

Absolutely not. Um, sorry, we can do that. If anyone would like to, again, and this is just a nice um shout for people. I you know, Drew and I, we won't go out there and say you can pay us thousands of bucks and we'll tell you the secret source and stuff like that. Yeah, we got books and stuff and this community app, you know. We like to think it's not an arm and a leg, just to cover the costs of stuff and our time. Um, but if you've ever kind of appreciated the work I've done over the years, whether it's this podcast or my old books, The Panic Pod back then, or just me prancing around on socials, uh pre-order the book. Uh it would be uh really appreciated, you know. Uh, and I personally email people back, thanking them, etc. Uh, but of course not, I'll keep doing this stuff. But if you know, if you if you fancy doing that, you can. It's only shipping from Amazon UK at the moment. So all Waterstones from the UK or bookshops in the UK will do international shipping. Uh yeah, and like I said, if you email me and stuff like that, I'll send you the goodies, which are an intrusive thoughts ebook and my morning audio, which Drew is now compulsively addicted to. He actually listens to it in the evening, which is concerning.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

I'm listening to it right now, and my right ear is Josh's morning audio, my left ear is Josh right now. So Josh all the time. Somebody in the chat is saying that it maybe you can address this. Has anyone in the US been able to pre-order the Kindle version? It doesn't seem to be available to pre-order on Kindle in the US. So I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

I've not I've not looked at that that yeah. Uh I'm just driving the hardbacks uh at the moment, but I don't know about the Kindle one. I'll have to have the look into that.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Check it out.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Uh okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

I won't order the book.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

You promised anyone who didn't would get a picture in the that was last week, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 35:37

So we have to send seven billion pictures of you to the people who don't order the book.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

That and the cornflakes thing. I just need to shut up, don't I? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

You're leaving yourself quite vulnerable. Uh, somebody also in the chat says, Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not going to order the book yet because I've done enough reading and not enough real exposures. That's really good. But this isn't that kind of book. This isn't a out of cure.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

No, that kind of book. Or, you know, it it you're reading other people doing exposures and their gaps and stuff in between that. But it's a funny book as well. You know, I like I write things that are entertaining. Well, I like to think they're entertaining, you know, unless you're Barry on Goodreads two years ago. He wrote like it's like I personally offended him and his family. Um, I framed his review. I was like, that's so callous. In a sea of wonderful reviews. Uh that's how it's gonna happen. Someone said a picture of Josh covered in cornflakes. How do I unorder the book?

SPEAKER_01 36:32

Want to cancel my order, please, so I get the cornflakes picture, magnesium flakes picture. Oh, I've I've noticed the uh the case study or the case of the characters is uh is a trope here. So it was in your first book, it's in this book, and it's in the disordered guide to health anxiety. Like we have those, we have our little avatars, our little fictitious people, right? That represent all the different phases of health anxiety. I think it's a great way to go because people can actually see themselves a little bit in those characters, right? So love it.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. No, and that's why it's written for. But I want I I've written it for fun. I don't, I've not written it for people to be triggered and stuff like that. It's fun, very self-deprecating. You know, I've in a world full of uh algorithms and reels showing you experts, I like to think, you know, if I can inspire people who don't feel perfect and don't feel optimized and have shame and have self-doubt, no, you can still do well as well. You know, and no matter where you are in life, whether you're desensitized or whether you're can't leave your house because of agrophobia like Magnus. Yeah, you know, it's it's it doesn't matter, it's the celebration of where you're at now. Um also goes on look, there's this huge theme of the book about delayed gratification. I'd like to ask you, Drew, what are the things you miss? Um, the favourite joys of delayed gratification. For me, it was going to the video rental store like Blockbusters and the excitement and the trip and the journey and coming home and and then realizing the video cassette and the people haven't rewound the video cassette, and you just put it in and it's just right at the end of the spoiler.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

So the delayed gratification was I can't just snap my fingers and watch a movie, I gotta go get it, right? There was something about that. There was something about the ritual of that.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

I I think one of the with your family, with your family, with the excitement, just arguing on what to watch. 100%.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Yeah, I love it. Or like meeting at a friend's house, and you're all going to watch this film together on their like VCR clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk with the clicky buttons, and like we don't have that anymore. I think uh I miss the delayed gratification of not everything showing up tomorrow. So there's something somewhat damaging to the psyche to live in an environment where like everything just shows up tomorrow. Oh, it doesn't, it's not not tomorrow, then I want I don't want it. I go somewhere else to get it tomorrow. There was something about waiting for things, slowing down a little bit that was worth it, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:53

Yeah, I there's a big list in the chapter in the book, The Death of Delayed Gratification. My favorite one was um, you know, you're really enjoying yourself on dial up internet, and then my mom was like, I need to ring anti-juke.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Pick up the phone, get off the internet. No, I was downloading a uh um never mind 14-4.

SPEAKER_02 39:18

What about serial tokens? You ever collect the serial tokens and send them off, and then you wait like a leap year, and then you get the world's worst toy. But the joy was waiting for it in the package, and I love that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Well, because I think there was so much in that in delayed gratification, there's imagination, there's the the facing the reality that I want a thing, but I don't have it now. I could push against that reality all I want, but this is reality, I'm gonna have to be okay with that. I just gotta wait. What are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 39:45

Yeah, a lot, a lot there now, and just yeah, just finding stuff out. Like I remember, don't get me wrong, it's easy you know, like looking at research and stuff now, but like I remember the days just being in the library and the smell of the library and just being like immersed in these different worlds where you can access worlds just at a click of a button now, but you're not really accessing them, you're not fully immersing them with your senses, you know. And when I found the book and the paragraph I needed for my essay, I'd like whoop in the library, only to be reprimanded by some militant librarians.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

For whooping in the library. Love it. That's one of my favorite. I'm sure I don't think it existed in the UK. I don't remember who it was for. It's an ad in the US that ran on TV, and the woman is in the library, and she goes, walks up to the librarian at the desk, and she's always I would like a large fries, a coke, and a and a burger. And the woman's like, ma'am, this is a library, and she goes, Oh, I'm sorry. I would like a large one of my favorites. Oh, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

Um, it's just things like just uh just without your phone, just meeting your friend. And if you're late, you are screwed. Like I will meet you at this time at 2 p.m. And you can't contact them if you're late. They're like, oh yeah, can you imagine that the amount of anxiety that we give people now?

SPEAKER_01 41:06

Yeah, you just had to say, be here on this corner of this street in this street at this time, and that's it. There's no texting, there's no nothing. Like, okay, I assume he'll be there. I hope.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Or I remember as well with with with photo like I used to go on a long walk in the hills and stuff like that. When I was, you know, doing all my exposure work, the idea of going on a long walk without my phone terrified me. And then I always had the thought, what do you think they did 20 years ago? That's exactly right. People just went people have been going on hikes and walks for thousands of years.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Since we got upright, since we came out of the trees, but now it's like I can't because I don't have my magic rectangle with me. Like, what's wrong with us? You're right. Put it, you know, it's okay, man.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

So I need to send my what three words location. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Oh, yeah. You want to check in before you start this workout? No. Like, I'm reasonably sure I'll survive the workout. I don't need to tell four friends that I'm about to like swing kettlebells. Thank you very much. Like, that's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:06

Don't start uploading reels doing working your glutes, please. That would be horrifying.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

So now we're just like hanging out and bullshitting, which is really fun. Like, this is what it looks like to be on a phone call with me and Josh, for those of you listening. But we did have a request in the chat, so hang on a second here. Amygdala. There you go. You're welcome. Uh, you we had not played it today, but for those person who wants to hear it, there we go.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Anyway, uh also, um, before we go, um, the the book does well, every time you turn the page, a speaker and built into the back of the book shouts amygdala.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Uh it's like one of those birthday cards that plays the song.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

As the as the battery gets lower, it sounds more and more haunted.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Oh my goodness, it would get super scary. Amygdala. Oh no, no, it's scaring me.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Someone reading in bed next to their partner, just like freaking them out.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

This book is broken up more marriages because of the horror factor. Oh my god. Anyway, yeah. Thanks, guys. We did well today.

SPEAKER_02 43:06

Thank you for everyone for supporting us. We're here every Friday. Thank you to anyone, whether you just listen casually as you're walking a dog or at home or chilling out, or whether you're in the community app, whatever. We really appreciate you. And um, thank you for tuning in and supporting us.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Yeah, we'll be here next week. If you want to send in a question or do it anyway, just go to disorder.fm and follow along with us on social media, anxiety Josh and the anxious truth, and that's it. We'll see you next week.