Rumination ... Or Reflection? (Episode 112)

SPEAKER_03 0:02

What is reflection?

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Reflection is when you look at something when you're quite removed from it.

SPEAKER_03 0:09

Rumination is never about actually solving a problem. The problem you're trying to solve is I'm upset now. I've noticed I've spent 40 minutes ruminating there, and my mood is now better. Even if you feel like you arrive at some sort of conclusion or you solve the problem at 10 a.m., if you're back at it again at 11 a.m. and then 1 p.m. and then the next day, and the same thing again and again, you're ruminating. You're not solving anything. I could tell you that the feeling that was driving the rumination or the act of worry, the repetitive worry was fear.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

The more I ruminate on this, the more I feel like I'm air quotes doing something, preventing bad things, and I have this illusion of control. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 112, entitled Reflection versus Rumination. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist, author, and content creator, and TEDx speaker, who is the co-host of this wonderful podcast, specialize in working with anxiety and anxiety disorders. And I'm joined by my co-host.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Yes, live from New York. I'm Drew Linsolata. I am also a therapist that practices in the area of anxiety and anxiety disorders, and a former sufferer of these problems, and an author, and advocate, psychoeducator, social media dude, and guy with an expensive mic that that hangs out with Josh once a week to talk about this stuff. So welcome. Welcome to episode 112.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Yeah, reflection versus rumination. Um you you like your reflection, don't you, Drew? I like a I like a good reflection.

SPEAKER_03 1:45

Yeah, I won't I want to turn down a good reflection.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

You see his workout room, honestly, it's just mirrors everywhere. Oh, it's nice unflattering floor mirrors.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

It's I get those discount funhouse mirrors. So yeah, reflection. What is what do you think reflection even is? Let's define that. What is what is reflection?

SPEAKER_02 2:04

Reflection is when you look at something. This is just my opinion. When you you look at something when you're quite removed from it, or you look at something through the lens of one emotion, then another emotion, and it's often when you give yours give whatever you're worrying about or thinking about, like a removed appraisal. Like I'm gonna reflect on that later, you know. Let's say Drew and I have an argument, it's a bar fight, you know, we're throwing glass tankards of beer at each other, and in the moment, you know, I might, you know, be in the moment. I'm being um driven by my emotions, the impulses. But then later I might reflect on that and go, No, I was in the right. Drew was being an ass. I should have every right to start that bar fight. But it's difficult with anxiety because anxiety drives your emotion, but then later it will still keep driving your emotion. So it's difficult to reflect on things, whether it's anxiety itself or genuine life worries. Ruminations when you're going round and round in the circle, going round and round the roundabout, on the hamster wheel, going what if, what if, what if, what if, usually playing out scenarios in your head and trying to stay ahead of every negative eventuality and it disguises itself as problem solving. But as we know, people with GAD, OCD, ruminators, you end up back at square one. I don't know. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 3:32

I think that was really good. I like removed is a really good word to keep in that that definition. Because if you and I in a bar fight throwing haymakers at each other, like we can get removed because then that event is over. So, like the big emotional charging, and like, you know, with we're insulting each other's moms, like that event is over. And then you can get past the event and like in more clear times or think about it, and like, ah, one of my favorite Reddit subreddits ever is Am I the Asshole? Yeah, so that's a great subreddit if you ever go in there. And it's what people do, like it's a joke because it's Reddit, because people will come in and say, Hey, this went on, like, was I wrong here? What was I the asshole there? So they are reflecting on it though, aren't they? They're looking like they're looking for different perspectives, and people will chime in and like you might have toned that down a little bit. It's actually really good and it's very funny. But since you can't get away from your own internal states and they just keep rising up and rising up, you you never get away from it. So you're never in a reasoned, detached, calm, more clearly thinking environment, ever. So that's you'll just keep asking questions that are designed to try to make you feel better, not actually solve a problem. You're not trying to solve a problem, you're trying to solve how you feel. So rumination is about changing how you feel. Rumination is never about actually solving a problem. The problem you're trying to solve is I'm I'm upset now, or I'm anxious, or I'm uncertain, or I feel vulnerable, or I'm unsure. I need to solve that problem. The actual thing is irrelevant, it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Yeah, but when you catch yourself ruminating, I've done that, and I always give myself a pat on the back, or I'm ruminating here, you know, and it's okay, we're human, we're all gonna ruminate. Yeah. But when you capture yourself ruminating, a reflection I often have is ah, I've noticed I've spent 40 minutes ruminating there, and my mood is no better. In fact, I'm winding myself up. So my reflection on that is okay, the problem I don't like is hanging in the air. I do feel uncertain, but reflecting on this moment of just ruminating, um, actually, it's not really helping me. I'm wondering if my mood might be a little bit better if I you know learn to kind of park that problem for a bit. We can't just ignore worries, you can't do it. I I can't do it, you know. But you can make sometimes park them, remove yourself from them, or go back to it when you're in a different kind of state, because like those people on that subreddit, you when you have that curiosity to look at it from a different perspective.

SPEAKER_03 6:01

Yeah. And I think the curiosity curiosity is important because you're trying to actually come to a conclusion, you know. Like when you ask your friend, like, ah, you know, was I wrong about that? And you know, a good friend will give you good feedback and like, yeah, yeah, maybe you were a little out of line, you should probably apologize. All right, cool. Like I'm getting some good information that I could actually use, I can take action on that, I can maybe change what I do next time. But if I have to ask, if I ask you the same question again and again and again and again about the same incident, and you're now you're rolling your eyes at me, like Drew, why you keep asking me? I I already I don't have any more advice for you. Well, that's rumination. So, you know, even if you feel like you arrive at some sort of conclusion or you solve the problem at 10 a.m., if you're back at it again at 11 a.m. and then 1 p.m. and then the next day and the same thing again and again, you're ruminating, you're not solving anything. So one of the things that I find interesting too is that people think that ruminate if they don't ruminate, that means that they're avoiding. Like, uh, but aren't I avoiding the problem? And and we've talked about this before. No, rumination is the avoidance because you don't like the feeling you have, and rumination is an attempt to avoid the feeling of uncertainty or unknowing, not knowing. So, like, no, rumination is the avoidance because you're not actually trying to solve a problem.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

Yeah, and for anyone who I mean, if you listen to this podcast or you're not quite sure what rumination is, it's overthinking. Any overthinkers listening to this podcast? Yeah, you're damn right there are. Yeah. I still overthink now and then, you know, again, it's a human thing. Uh let's talk more about this, but I think we should celebrate a member of the community. I think so too. Let's do an audio did it anyway.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Hi, Josh and Drew. This is Steven. You could use my name. I've had Gad since really as far back as my memories could go, but lately after some big life events and kind of traumatic panic attacks that happened surrounding them. I've been managing some panic disorder type manifestations and but anyway, I wanted to share Did it anyway. I've been playing softball in the mornings, um, and mornings are particularly difficult, I suppose, cortisol stuff is involved, but I uh kind of had a panic attack during the game today, but just focused on my breath and kind of allowed, I guess allowed it to be there, and tried to give 51% of my attention to the game, ended up going three for three, kind of went away on its own eventually, did some breath work after the game, and feel pretty good about it. I'm sure it'll get hard again, but I guess the goal is to be kind to myself if it doesn't go that way all the time, because if there's anything I've learned, it's that this is a practice experience, and there's a lot of ingrained habits after suffering with anxiety for years and years. Hoping to continue to be kind to myself and feeling good about how I handled things today, and hopefully there's more of that to come. So thank you guys for everything you do, and uh look forward to hearing some more episodes.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

Oh stand. Yeah, how good was that? I love that. I had all the elements to it. Self-compassion, had the I love the 51% attention thing. I always forget to say that to people, you know, like what do I do when I panic? Well, you can't quite ignore it. So the the aim is you know, just give yourself 51% of attention. That's enough to teach the brain. Look, most of me isn't interested in this, so and that and that's enough. Uh, really, really well done.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

What did you like about that? Um, the kind part, the self-compassion was really good. Like, I gotta remember to not beat myself up if it doesn't really go as well as it did this time. Very good. Can't beat that before we move on.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

What what's softball?

SPEAKER_03 10:01

Oh, softball is like baseball, except with a bigger ball. I mean, it's soft. It is soft, but it's not soft. If you get hit with a he rockets a shot right back to the pitcher's man, you're gonna feel that. So I don't know why they call it softball, because it's a bigger ball, it's heavier than a baseball. It's generally pitched underhand, although if you go on YouTube and search for fast pitch softball, huh, underhand my butt. Like that ball do 80, 90 miles an hour.

SPEAKER_02 10:28

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

Does it make a good sound when you hit it as well? I imagine. Um, it makes a different sound because the ball is a little different than a baseball, which is smaller and rock hard. But uh yeah, softball is like super recreationally popular here. A lot of softball games. Yeah, it's a lot of times it's co-ed, you know, men and women play together. Steven went three for three in a softball game, it was really great. So but he didn't tell us because he was playing in a geriatric league, so he was rocketing hard liners and then a third baseliner for an 80-year-old pitcher, but still, still he was kind to himself, and that was important. But uh anyway, yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 11:00

Well done. I've learned something new today.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Yeah, for those of you listening for anxiety tips, I'm glad that we got to teach you about American softball for a minute now. Okay, anyway, good job, Steven. Thanks for sharing. Keep going, brother.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Um, when would you what's the let's let's do some examples of reflection and rumination? I'm gonna put you under the spotlight, Drew. Okay, sure. What does rumination look like when you are trying to fix how you feel constantly compared to reflection? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_03 11:34

Um, for me, uh well, I can give you, I'll give you my own personal experience. Rumination looked like asking the same questions again and again. And and usually the question was, I wonder if or what if or how will I, you know, I was always trying to predict what the future was going to be. I wasn't so much of a past, so maybe I was more of a worrier than a ruminator, but the the mechanism is the same. I was always looking into the future to see how I was gonna feel and what might what might make me feel bad, and then what I was gonna do about that. And but that that conversation happened 10 times every day, all day long, and never produced any actual workable answer ever. So that was ruminating. It was just again or worrying. But the same thing would happen if you're looking in the past, we call it rumination, but either way, it's the same thing. And it was just I would just repeat that conversation multiple times a day, every day for a very long time, and never draw any conclusions.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

And what was the feeling it gave you when you're doing it? Because obviously your rational brain knows that you're doing this all day, every day. Yeah, but there's obviously a driver, isn't there, to why we do it. Oh, yeah. What was the I often call it the what's the illusion that it was drawing you towards?

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Yeah, for me, I could tell you that the feeling that was driving the rumination or the act of worry, the repetitive worry was fear. I was afraid of how I was gonna feel. All day long, I was afraid of how I was gonna feel in the next minute or next hour. And so I was trying to find some degree of certainty that I was gonna feel okay. And and I couldn't. And the more I would try, the the more agitated I would get, which in retrospect, I can look back and say, that's a good indicator that you are ruminating. If you are getting more and more agitated as you go through this loop and loop and loop, there's a really good chance you're ruminating. So I was trying to make myself feel better, but I wasn't. I was actually making myself feel worse. And I and then I don't know. Uh in retrospect, I look back and it felt like I was losing hours at a time. I'm sure I wasn't, but I would just go off, zone out, and I would just be in my own head, like playing scenarios of how I would maybe do that drive and not panic, or you know, maybe if I just took a snack with me, I would go through all again, but the same things again and again and again and again. It was so unhelpful.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

I often say it's like it's the illusion of problem solving where you think that you have control. Yeah, the more I ruminate on this, the more I feel like I'm air quotes doing something, preventing bad things, and I have this illusion of control. And that's what I used to do as well. I used to ruminate, problem solve, I used to try and anticipate problems before they hit me, particularly when it comes to anxiety. Um and also, particularly with the I mean, this episode is really stands out for people with GAD and OCD, particularly pure row, you know where you spend hours every day just in your head going round and round and round. Um it's being able to spot yourself ruminating and then being compassionate, like I forgot the did it anyway, send her in a the softball game. That's it. Okay, yeah, yeah. It's like doing that, uh, and and spotting it, that metacognitive awareness. Um, so let's let's do some more examples, maybe just for people to feel seen. What would it look like, maybe if you've got relationship OCD and you're not quite sure you're not a hundred percent sure that this partner's the person you want to be with, and you're just compulsively seeking reassurance and thinking and analyzing. What might reflection look like in that scenario?

SPEAKER_03 15:11

Oh, that's a really good question. See, it gets kind of gray a little bit. That's true. Sometimes you might not under know what you're doing, but reflection would be ultimately it's productive. Like, all right, let me think about this. I'm really upset right now. I'm having I'm in that triggered state right now, and I'm trying to figure out whether or not I actually do like this person, love this person, and should be with this person. And so, well, let me think about this. Like, I I wasn't sure the day we met. Like they were just some signs that weren't so good for me. And a lot of my friends keep telling me and hinting that uh this isn't really, we're not that we don't seem to be terribly compatible. And I am spending a whole lot of energy making up after fights and trying to prevent fights. And I don't know. I mean, I want this to work, but uh it's starting to look like maybe it's not gonna, and I probably have to have some hard conversations to have. That is responsible.

SPEAKER_02 16:03

However, I also know I have relationship OCD. Yes. So when am I when I'm thinking about my relationship? Am I doing it through the lens of threat and when I am triggered? Or am I doing it when I am calm? I've had a nice meal, uh, I've probably been away from my partner for a little bit, had some and I'm not triggered. How do I feel then? How do I feel when I'm not doing when I'm in that state? How do I feel when I'm happy? How do I feel when I'm sad? I'm gonna reflect on this because I have relationship OCD. Yes, we've got one vote for breakup, you know, whatever. But actually, on reflection over the last few months, it has been better. I have been working on this, so maybe I don't need to jump into immediacy what my OCD is telling me to do. Because anyone with OCD knows it. Immediacy, it just cons you into immediacy, no matter what your theme of OCD is, you know, think about it, do something, compulse, do it now. A reflection is hmm, I've noticed my OCD and my anxieties chimed in here. So I know the main avenue that I'm probably gonna go down is rumination. But if I can spot that and be clever with it, then maybe I can still reflect on this right now. But the context is when I've removed myself, I'm triggered. So any conclusions that I have are gonna be through the lens of being triggered as opposed to in a different state. That was very wordy. I hope that made sense.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

No, that actually that was a really good catch because you asked your question, question, and I answered a completely different question. So good job bailing me out. But I think what it no, yours is great. Well, I think what I was trying to portray there was what reflection on a relationship would probably look like for somebody who doesn't have relationship OCD in retrospect. And no, but they would as well. They're non-triggered state, that's what they'd reflect on.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

No, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

But I think one of the things I wanted to portray there was the whole, like, well, I I'm still not really a hundred percent sure about this, and I might never be, but it's starting to look like, and I'm leaning toward, I gotta have some hard conversations about this relationship. Whereas I think when you're in that OCD mode, you're in that triggered mode, you're looking for certainty. I'm looking for an ironclad thing here. Like, but I don't want to break up, I want to love this person, I want to have a perfect relationship, I don't want to be that person, and I need to find a hundred percent answer one way or the other, or I or I'm stuck, I can't make a decision. Whereas in the non-triggered state, I'm willing to leave a little gray there and not be a hundred percent sure. I can only be kind of sure of what my next step is gonna be. So, yeah, I think ruminate, you know, a reflection of um one of the hallmarks of reflection is you're willing to leave a little bit of grayness in the answer, or or when you're done reflecting, there's a little bit of unknown still, and you understand that that's life. Whereas rumination will not tolerate unknown at all.

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Where's the answer? Where's the singularity? We must find that. And so what if I don't find my partner attractive? Oh, wait, there they are, and they're brandishing Newcastle United's new 2025 home kit. Oh my god, I've never found someone so attractive in my life.

SPEAKER_03 19:03

I think it's interesting too, because not only do you the ruminator wants to find uh certainty in the content, but also in the process. So for the reflector, the person might understand that, like, well, I mean, I I guess I got to talk more about this, but now isn't the time. I've other I gotta get to work or whatever's going on. The ruminator not only will think, like, well, I haven't perfectly solved the content of my worry, but I will then it gets very meta because it's like, well, what if I missed something and I need to think more about this? I might not, I might have missed something in the process of thinking. So I need more thinking to make sure I have all the bases covered. So, like the rumination process will demand that you ruminate more to make sure you've looked under every stone and every dark corner. That's for people like, what if I've missed something? Yeah, what if I miss something?

SPEAKER_02 19:52

How often does that come up with rumination? What if I've missed something? Whether you've got health anxiety, what if I've missed something? Whether you've just got anxiety about anxiety and recovery. Remember, I advocating for the banning of the word recovery, you know, like what if I've missed a resource about my recovery? So then you carry on and you ruminate and you develop yourself in the world. Yeah, split a bugger OCD. What if I've, you know, what if I've contaminated someone? What if what if I've missed something and I have existential OCD? And actually I need to solve the meaning of life when I'm still in Walmart, you know, buying a you know, bologna sandwich and an assault rifle. What if I've not what if I can't find the meaning of life? And it's just like it will trick you into that immediacy. Yeah. And you're just gonna catch it and like hold on, yeah. That yeah, particularly applies to those like, what if I've missed something? Yeah, particularly the health anxiety people. Think about actually health anxiety people, what does reflection, and I'm gonna put you on the spot again, Drew? Yeah, what does reflection and rumination look like in someone with health anxiety?

SPEAKER_03 20:56

Oh, I think in health anxiety it gets really clear, to be honest with you, because the health anxiety person accepts, can accept that point oh oh oh oh one possibility that that the problem that they fear can happen. That's not okay. So reflection for about your health or a person with health anxiety who might be calm in the moment might think, well, I I don't have any signs of this. Like the sun is out, we're going on a picnic. This is not a thing that I really need to pay attention to right now because there's no point in doing that. I guess maybe I'll follow up on it later. Or like, well, I don't want this to happen. I have no, I have no evidence that it's happening now, so let's just check on it later. Whereas the health anxiety person, no, they will just keep looping back to, but people really do get this disease, but people really do die, but people really do get sick. So I I can't stop thinking about this. That is not correct. That is that's unsafe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

And a good reflection would be I've noticed every time I Google or ask Chat GPT, I feel slightly okay. Or worse, but then I keep returning back to this state. And it becomes I've noticed the more attention I give this, the more hypersensitive I become to the whole topic. You know, yeah. I've noticed when I don't compulse, actually, my mood is better. You know, and I've also noticed I drop everything to respond to that trigger, that adrenaline dump, because I get tricked into thinking that that's the immediacy I need to act upon.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

There's another good reflection I think can be driven by the people in your life that you trust who are closest to you, who care about you. Because if you are a ruminator or warrior and you're spending a lot of time actively engaged and active thinking to problem solve because you're uncertain and feel scared and all of those things. And everybody else in your life that you know and trust, the people closest to you, are kind of giving you the side eye and like giving you the dog confused look. Because they don't understand. And people say things to you. You know what a good indicator that you're a ruminator is when people say things like, Why do you do this to yourself? Why can't you let this go? Right. If you hear most of your friends and family saying that sort of thing to you, that might be a moment to stop and reflect because what will happen with the ruminator or the worrier is they'll decide, why are you telling me that? This is so important. Don't you understand? But if everybody else around you that you trust and love is looking at you and seeing you torture yourself, might be time for a little reflection. But that's just the ruminative process or the fixator, if you will, you like to use fixator, which I kind of dig. That mind will insist that, like, no, no, no, because this could really happen, or because I have a strong feeling about this, I can't drop it. Because it's a this is either a real oh, by the way, you know what it is when like, well, but I'm thinking about a real thing, my relationship, or I'm thinking about my health. Those are real things, right? I I should be thinking about. You know what I have to say about that? We're waiting. I'm awaiting. Have you just been we just introduced a new sound bite to disordered? That's exactly right. It doesn't matter that it's a real thing. Ruminating- I don't see these podcast ratings plummeting, but in the end, the reason why we're being so silly about that is it really doesn't matter that it's a real thing because the ruminative process doesn't help real things at all.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Josh is like crawl out of the table like Yeah, but I have a family member who who who died from this serious heart condition, right?

SPEAKER_03 24:23

But like how heartless are we? But this is tough, right? So, in the end, as ridiculous and like, oh my god, we those guys are torpedoing themselves. But in the end, yeah, we face that reality that thinking about it. Now, you might have a lot of feelings about that, which of course that matters. We would not be trying to minimize anybody's real world experiences. But the insistence that continually active thinking that does not produce any actionable results is worth something, is is folly. It's not it's not helping at all, even in real things like health and relationship and children and career and money and all of the things that people insist that like, no, I have to ruminate on that. No, you don't, because rumination is not a effective technique in the real world or otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

And you're only exhausting yourself. Take the example of a parent, you know, they're the kids sick, they maybe have got the flu or something, you know. And it's okay to what you know to worry and have concerns. Um, but when you start to see what you're behaving like non-anxious you would do, and you are compulsively checking every three seconds, and you drop what you're doing, and you've and you can't focus because you're ruminating, you're inwards. What if what if she's poorly? What if she's doing this? What if it's something bad? That mechanism there, yes, it feels like you're being responsible, but actually you're making yourself exhausted. You're not actually changing anything that's happening in the in in the world now, and you're also not trusting your own intuition and ability to problem solve if your kid was poorly, had to be taken to hospital. You would do that anyway, whether you were ruminating or not. Yep. So the reflection would be yeah, I've noticed that actually I'm winding myself a lot up here, you know. You know, she's actually delighted she doesn't have to go to school. But for me, I'm like, I'm winding myself up here. So the reflection is, uh yeah, I've noticed I am ruminating here. I'm allowed to be worried, I'm allowed to have anxiety, but what am I doing with that anxiety? I'm kind of sitting in there feeding the perpetual hamster wheel.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

I saw an excellent reflection the other day. I I teach this practical mindfulness.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Oh, was it was it was the was the lighting good, mate?

SPEAKER_03 26:54

The lighting was awesome. But yeah, this person was talking about that exact thing, like being worried about their their their child and their health, which is of course any parent would be worried about that and concerned about that. But was able to be a little reflective in the moment and say, but what's really happening is I'm making her more anxious because I'm always like amped up, like I'm it's rubbing off on her now. She's seeing my mood and she's getting freaked out because I'm always freaked out. So understanding, like, but it feels like I should be really, really paying very close attention all the time. But she was amping herself up so much that she was able to be reflective. And that was good in the moment and recognize, oh, wait a minute, what I'm doing feels like the right thing for me to do because it makes me feel like I'm being a responsible parent, but it's actually having a negative effect on the person that I'm trying to protect. So that was a great moment of reflection where somebody could sort of see through the fog for a minute and say, Oh, I'm gonna have to work on this, which means I'm gonna have to challenge the idea that active rumination and worry about my my child's health is a good thing. Uh it's a good thing for me because it makes me feel like I'm doing something, but it's not a good thing for her, for the kid.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

So um I don't know if you've ever heard me use the snow globe analogy. No, I love the snow globe. Yeah, I love this analogy. Um let it let it settle, right? It just pop it just popped to this. You can honestly rinse this analogy so much. Yeah, uh, and I you can use this analogy to do to differentiate between reflection and rumination. Rumination is you're in the snow globe and everything's fuzzy and weird and and you can't see anything. Reflection is you're outside the snow globe looking in. Oh, I can see that it's chaotic in that. For God's sake, Drew. I'm gonna put you.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

I'm on do not disturb, there's not supposed to be any of these.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

I'm gonna mash your corpse into a 50 centiil squared snow globe. So you're looking into the snow globe, but in when you're in it, it's chaotic, it's a mael strike. Yeah, but then when you look outside it, you're the person holding it, going, Wow, that snow globe's pretty intense right now. But I can see what's going on. That's the difference. Are you in the snow globe? Are you in amongst it? Can you remove yourself and have a look? Well, yeah, my mind is racing right now. Look, that snow globe is intense, but I can see in it, and I can see it when it settles.

SPEAKER_03 29:21

Yeah, and the the trick there, if you're in the snow globe, because you're the ruminator and you're trying to learn to be reflective, often it's just stopping, just taking a just making a little bit of space. Stop and take a walk, breathe. Like, I don't care, it doesn't matter what you do, anything but rumination, as Josh is fond of saying. Like, we I need a little bit for the snow in the snow globe to settle so I could see a little bit more clearly for just a couple of minutes and I could be reflective for a minute.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

Yeah, and but when you're ruminating, you're at you, you're trying to stop the storm inside the snow globe by shaking it, yeah. You're trying to control it, and you're just keeping it there, you know. I told you could rent this analogy.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

I love my snow globe. That was worth the price of the visitor. That's right. You're trying to settle the snow globe by shaking it.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Yeah. Oh, oh, the dots are going up, so I'll move it down. Oh, now they're going down, I'll move it up. I'll move down and and and you're just gonna go keep it going.

SPEAKER_03 30:14

Because it feels like uh because you know what seems irresponsible to the worrier or the ruminator, you know, not doing anything, but really not doing anything is the best move in the moment because what you're doing is counterproductive. But just stopping to let the snow and the snow globe settle doesn't feel like the right thing to do. So the process of worry and rumination will that the the driver, the process will say, no, no, no, we need this process. Keep shaking, keep shaking, keep shaking. So it's really hard to do. Like being able to get a little reflective means you got to let the snow settle. That was really good, but that's hard because you got to stop for a minute, make a little time.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

So there's a mirror in at my gym that it's like the mirror of Erisad of Harry Potter. I know you've not read Harry Potter, but it's like you look into it and it makes you look amazing. I'm like, I sit there and go, wow, that's it's really encouraging. And everyone's I see people going up there, like just like wow, yeah, that looks great, you know. Do I look that good? And then you go, and then I go home and look in my bathroom mirror, and that's reality. I look like a like a salmon, a cured salmon. And then I get to choose what my reality is. Is it this mirror? Maybe that's warped. No, the real version of me is the gym mirror, or that lovely mirror they have in clothes shops, and that always gets me that. I go in. Here's a good reflection. Quite literally, I've stopped going to certain clothes shops because when I put the clothes on in that changing room, you look amazing. Yeah, and then you go home and and and your loved ones are like, Why did you buy that? Looks that sucks. And I'm like, It does suck, actually. That mirror convinced me because I look great in it. Um, anyway, that's a a tangent that I'm really appreciate you all from following me.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

It's illustrative, though, I think, of the concept. And you know what? It's not even just be nice to yourself because it's not just anxious people that get caught up in that, like everybody does. So, like, uh, you know, before we went on, we were talking about social media and blah blah blah. And like, oh, I I need a better workflow, like I'm just I'm working, I need to work smarter, not harder. And I found myself in the last week, and I hate this because I don't like to do it. Like, okay, every once in a while, every couple of years, I'm gonna have to look at my process and see if I'm doing anything that I can improve because my life changes. I'm not in school anymore. There's a good LinkedIn post in the make, you know, really. If I was on LinkedIn, that would totally be a LinkedIn post. You're right. But what I discovered was there were several times when I was in the snow globe and I'm on this weird rabbit hole of like productivity apps and how to use Apple reminders and like you know, Final Cut Pro workflows. And I noticed that like my jaws clenched and my shoulders are up, and I'm leaning really close to the monitor, and I'm like, wait a minute, why am I feeling like I'm in the gym right now? Because I'm I'm just caught in like rumination, asking this, these like where are there's no reflection, there's no productive thinking going on there. Just got caught up in it, which every human being is gonna do sometimes. It's okay, like you're not broken if that happens to you.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

I promise the paradox of self-optimization. You overoptimize yourself, you become useless.

SPEAKER_03 33:17

Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. In that situation, that's what that was. That was an optimization rumination that they didn't oh look, we're we're poets now, but uh yeah, it wasn't really working out. Yeah, oh love should we do another did it anyway, or do you want to read one? What do you want to do?

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Oh, yeah, I've got a red one here, uh reading one here. Um I hope that was a helpful chat about reflection and rumination, guys. Uh, it's a subject that I enjoy talking about. Uh hello, Drew and Josh. My name is Jill. Feel free to use my name. After three years of thinking about doing it, last fall I finally applied and enrolled to go back to school part-time. It was a whole host of anxiety triggers for me. Not wanting to panic or throw up in class, not wanting to overwhelm myself with the stress of school, plus still working my job, fear of burnout, but I knew I wanted to do it, so I did it anyway. I'm about halfway through my first semester. This was sent in a while ago as well, so I wonder how she's doing now. And it is going great. The first two weeks I was nauseous and a little panicky in class, but I knew it was important to me, and I love the materials, so I just did it anyway. Thank you both so much for your awesome podcast, which supported me in doing this. Oh, love that. Good job, Jill. Yeah, well done, Joe. I have no doubt that she's still doing those things. And that was sent in a while ago. Um, yeah, it's probably like uh I graduated five years ago. She now is a PhD. I'm now Dean of the College.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

Sorry, we're a little behind on some of the did-da-day. If you're listening, send us a little update and let us know how you're doing. But great, you know what I love about that? That's a values. That's a values uh illustration right there. No, no, I really like this. I like learning. This is important to me. This reflects who I really want to be. So I'm gonna do that instead of not do it. Love it. Really great. That's great. Good job. Um, how about we do an audio one? This one's a little longer, but it there's I have a soft spot in my heart for this particular topic, and it's a good one. So here we go.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name is Claire. You can use my name. I've been in recovery for about two years now and doing really, really well. I've been traveling a lot. I'm an artist. I have some commissions I'm really excited about, and um, yeah, I felt like I had kind of gotten my life back. Um, but there was one thing that I was still really afraid of, and that um was the was uh vertigo because I before I got my anxiety disorder, I had multiple bouts of benign positional vertigo, which is where the crystals in your inner ear get dislodged and it causes you to feel like the room is spinning, it's awful, very uncomfortable. Um, so I was always like, you know, I'm okay, but what if that happens? I won't be okay. I'll panic. And um two days ago, I woke up and the first thing I felt was just this lurching feeling. And I woke up and the room is spinning, and I said, oh no, I have vertigo. Um, but then I very calmly sat up and I uh waited for the crystals to settle and the room to stop spinning. I had my morning coffee and I took myself to the hospital, the same hospital that I went to when I had my first panic attack. And um, so it was a double exposure because I've been very afraid to go back to that hospital. And um, I had a lovely doctor. She gave me the exercises I needed to do, and within a few hours I was feeling better, and I had a little bit of a vestibular hangover. Um, you always feel a little wonky after that happens because your brain is so confused. Um, but yeah, I I did it anyways. I I stayed calm. I kind of the worst thing that could I thought that could happen happened, and I was fine. So um, yeah, it just uh that's a big moment for me, and I'm so grateful for the for both of you. Um, you've been so um pivotal in my recovery, and yeah, just thank you so much for all that you do. Goodbye.

SPEAKER_03 37:21

Extra applause for Claire and her her inner ear crystals.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

And uh I hope people listening take some inspiration from that. It's really good. I like that. The worst thing happened, and I was okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:34

Yeah, room is spinning.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

It doesn't matter, Claire like a boss, right? She just ruin Claire's wonderful story with with why Clef Jean and the Rocks, 2005 banger.

SPEAKER_03 37:47

It doesn't change that up and let it settle. Like that's really good. That's okay. You know what? As somebody who does experience B PBV actual vertigo, once in a while, I can appreciate that. It's very, very hard to do what Claire did. So good job, Claire.

SPEAKER_02 38:00

That's very good. Thanks, guys. Um, keep them coming in, disordered.fm, uh where you can send us notes and voice notes and stuff. We're gonna do a did it anyway episode soon. So if you've got particular uh did it anyways you want to share via audio or written, uh send them in and we'll uh hopefully share them share them out. We try to get through as many as we can. Um we love reading them all. Um and yeah, sorry if we don't get round to reading yours out and things.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

It's all good. All right, I guess we're good. We reflected and ruminated enough for 38 minutes on a on a Friday or whatever day it is now. So yeah, and if you're really digging the podcast, you know, we those reviews on Spotify and Apple Podcasts really make us feel good because you know we need to feel good.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

We just yeah, no, no, we really appreciate it, and thanks to the people on Reddit as well being saying nice things. You people are finding the podcast through you saying nice things, and we really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_03 38:56

Yeah, thanks a bunch, guys. All right, we'll be back next week with another episode. Thanks for tuning in, and we are out.