Relationship Anxiety and Relationship OCD (Episode 061)

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Hi Drew and Josh. I love your podcast and recently got an idea about a topic I'd like to share. I would love for you to make a podcast episode about relationship anxiety in the future. This could cover a lot of issues, such as number one, anxiety surrounding intrusive thoughts about your partner leaving you or cheating on you, even though you have a loving partner. Including excessive needs for reassurance, overanalyzing your partner's behavior, searching for signs that they are in fact cheating on you. And number two, the other way around, anxiety surrounding intrusive thoughts about not loving your partner enough, even though you are in a healthy relationship and know deep down that you love them, including thoughts of, do I love them enough? Do I love them or am I just settling? Is my brain only convincing me that I love that person? Etc., etc. Well, we'll talk about that today.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 61 or 62 of the podcast, don't remember, uh, entitled Relationship OCD. Uh, I am Drew Linsolata, one of the co-hosts of Disordered. I am a therapist in training in the United States, specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I am a former sufferer of anxiety, anxiety disorders, and depression. I'm an author, a podcaster, clearly, because I'm here, and an educator in the community. And uh yeah, back again for another episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

And I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety disorders, uh, previous sufferer, author of the book, and how does that make you feel, and co-host of this podcast. Now, when reading out this question as someone who specializes in anxiety disorders and OCD, what's the first thing that popped out to you, Drew, as I read it out?

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Um, definitely the cut the the uncertainty. I cannot be sure that I love my partner or they're being faithful to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

I hear this a lot. It's often the sub a very common subtype of OCD called relationship OCD. ROCD for short. And we've had a few requests to talk about this. Um and people message me on Instagram and things like that. Can you talk about ROCD? Uh so we will, using the principles of what we talk about on this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Yeah, it's one of those things like OCD can it's a stranger situation because OCD can really attach itself to almost anything. And it doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_02 2:31

No logical sense, but no, it's some sense, uh, often attaches to things that are opposite of your values, morals, and what you find comfortable, what you want in life.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Um, that's why it often attaches to things like relationships or intrusive thoughts about violence, and it often includes loved ones, or when the stakes are high, maybe there's people seeing you, and if you humiliate yourself, etc. etc. Always want 100% certainty. Uh, not diagnosing you question sender in her, but what we will say is um you know it will it sounds like it's attaching on things to things that you value. Yeah. Uh as always, shall we play a community win? I think uh in the mood.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Yeah, let's share a did it anyway all the way from Brazil because it has to do with today's episode. So here we go.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

Hi, Drew and Josh, all the way from Brazil. I wanted to share my did it anyway. So I've been struggling with OCD and anxiety ever since I'm a child, and it took me a long time to find the right treatment. I've been working with my therapist for a little less than two years now, and we've worked through most of my OCD teams, although there's still things that we need to work on. About two months ago, I really had a pretty bad time with a reversion to old habits, compulsive rumination checking, and that drove me really sick. I wasn't functioning, not eating, not sleeping. Just drove me back to my parents' house. And with the support of the people in my life and through you guys in the podcast, which I think is just such a real and great perspective on anxiety recovery. I was able to get back on my feet, and I just came back to Brazil after tra uh traveling abroad for work. So I went all by myself, did a lot of cool stuff, took up skiing, which is very new to me, was super scared, but I did it anyway. And now I'm back and I'm super proud. I wasn't completely compulsion-free during that time, but I'm getting better at reducing them and learning new non-compulsive behaviors that's that take me towards my long-term goals. So that's it. I want to thank you guys very much.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Huge round of applause from the studio audience. Excellent job.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

Excellent. Well done. Well done. That's really got us in the mood for today. That's uh, I love it. The community wins. If you uh also have a community win, send them in to disorder.fm. You can email or you can leave a voice note and they're great. They often influence uh the structure and the topics of what we talk about. Relationship OCD. Now, first of all, if you don't have relationship OCD, stay tuned because understanding the principles, understanding how relationship OCD manifests will overlap with other doubts. So if you're thinking, oh no, this doesn't apply to me, what the hell are these guys talking about today? No, the principles remain the same. And also it will help because if you're someone who struggles with OCD or obsessive compulsive tendencies with panic or anxiety, and you're you will relate to some of the behaviors. Um true. When we talk about relationship OCD, what do you think some of the main compulsions are?

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Checking for faithfulness or fidelity. Yeah, I had um had a little contact with a with someone like a client like that not too long ago in my clinical work, not my client, another client, and uh yeah, the compulsions are strong to check her phone and some stuff when you know, I wonder if this is totally anonymous, but like sticking Apple Air tags and trying to track her car and thing. It didn't want to, doesn't want to do this, doesn't want to do it, feels terrible, but is sure that he must be missing something. She must be cheating. That is uh that's a tough one. I hear that one quite often.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

It can manifest like that. Most common one I hear is what if this person, even though I'm happy, what if this person isn't the right one for me? What if there's someone better out there? Now, on the surface, that's not really a you know a horrendous thought, is it? It's okay, it's very human to reflect on your life, and you know, what if this however it becomes ROCD when it becomes compulsive and the need for a hundred percent certainty? Yeah. Um, yeah, uh, so you've got like it this can fall under the umbrella of our ROCD too. Um, what if this person's not the one? Yep. Even though rationally, what is that? We you know, people aren't a singularity, but these are the people who compulsively check, scan, ruminate. We all do irritating things. Um, unlike you and I, Drew, we are not irritating in the slightest. Not at all. Never uh thrive off being irritating. Um, but that could be misinterpreted by the threat response as C, OCD, our OCD might be at C. There's evidence.

SPEAKER_03 7:41

Yep, there's a red flag.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

There's a red flag that that this person isn't for you. Yeah, you know, whereas anyone you meet is gonna be really irritating. Um it's interesting, the person who asked this question surrounding intrusive thoughts, so they've already labeled them as intrusive thoughts, you know. Um it's basically it always surrounds the uncertainty and the lack of certainty and 100% assurance that this is the right decision.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

Yeah. Then there's the the other one, which is the other one. There's there's more than one, you know, variation on this theme. But uh another common one is I I don't know, and it goes both ways for both partners in a relationship. How do I know that he or she or they really actually do love me? They're here, they're with me, they're supportive, everything seems to be okay, but I cannot help but doubt that this person truly wants to be here. And it it starts to, I've seen that also sort of veer into the fidelity thing or or the faithfulness thing too. Like they must be thinking about someone else right now. I saw that, I saw that I saw that my partner look at another person and I turned it into a whole story about how that person is better than me and they wish they were with and I'm not good enough. So like that can be a thing too. And again, in the face of like everything seems to be fine in the relationship. There's no evidence that shows that's one of the red flags that you gotta look for. I can't find any evidence here. At face value, everything looks pretty good, but there's something that tells me that it's not, and so I'm gonna keep looking for that again and again and again. Difficult, exhausting.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

It's so it's so tricky as well because it's okay. So people don't struggle with disorder anxiety. It's okay to ask those questions, but it becomes a problem when it's you're asking them every single day 500 times, right? And you're trying to seek the answer through compulsive assurance seeking. Um the question sender also said, shouldn't I be happier? Shouldn't it be more perfect? And think of it, yeah, exactly. More perfect. And what does more perfect look like? Very common with ROCD. Um, and a very common theme. This is why we're gonna be talking about it today.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

Um that's the do I love this person the right way? Does this look right? Does it look the way it's supposed to look? Yeah, are I supposed to feel or shouldn't that my partner be expressing some sort of joy more openly? And you know, it's just it's really rough. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Anniversary comes up and you go out for an evening, then maybe you have a slight argument, or it doesn't go cinema perfect. See, if I was in the right relationship, then this would have gone cinema perfect. So I'm gonna sit here and ruminate now and also misinterpret it, misinterpret all the relationships around me as being perfect, as well as interjecting and absorbing unhealthy ideals from Hollywood and cinema.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

Yeah. Uh I once heard somebody, this is pretty interesting, describe that uh ROCD sort of variation. The it's it's not right. It doesn't look right. This isn't perfect as relationship perfectionism, which I thought was a super interesting way to conceptualize that. Like, oh, I have perfectionism in relationships. I need my relationship to be perfect. Yeah, it's all or not. Yeah, relationship perfection. I was like, Dad, it's really good.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

ROCD relationship perfectionism, it has to be perfect. But the irony of that is, and most people with ROCD know this. If your relationship was entirely predictable, oh good.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

That would be boring.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

It would be boring, yeah. And the paradox of it would be like, oh, that there's there's nothing around the corner because I know everything. I'm so secure, I'm so all this, I don't have to work on anything. I my partner is completely predictable, and even though I feel safe, actually the safety was the bottom of my needs ladder. Um, but and most people that are OCD know this because the you know it's OCD because it wants you to feel safe, nothing else matters. I want you to feel safe and assured and knowledge and and I'm gonna convince you to behave to feel safe. Yeah, um, and everything we've listed so far from the question, have you noticed? These are the voices of OCD saying, no, you must find the singularity, you must find 100% assurance. And as we know, you can't do that, and it applies to any OCD theme, and even applies to when we're talking about anxiety recovery and perfectionism. You can never be feel that satiation. That's the word, satiation. I'm so sated in this feeling now, and it's an illusion that we try to chase.

SPEAKER_03 12:39

I'm settled, like it's settled, it's calm, it's placid, there's no unknown, there's no discomfort, there's no distress. It's perfect. I feel perfectly satisfied and okay. And you know, every once in a while, we all have those moments in our relationships. That's great. You know, you had a really great night or whatever, just a cool Sunday afternoon hanging around at home doing nothing with your party. Like, cool, that's great. But life can't always be that way. And anytime anything upsets that very placid surface of the water, the person with ROCD immediately will launch into some sort of action that ultimately they wish they weren't taking. That's really where it starts to become from. Well, aren't I just concerned about a healthy relationship? Sure, you could work on your relationship, but if I'm working on my relationship and then hating that I have to work on my relationship so much, that's one of the things we would look for.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Another common one that pops up is what if I'm uh what if I've not explored all of my sexuality and that my current partner is hindering me from that? Yep. Even though perhaps this has been a theme of my OCD in the past, but now it's convincing me that it's this. It's it's a real tricky one. If you've got our OCD, it's a tricky one because the line gets convoluted between asking yourself actual serious questions about your relationship and being enmeshed in the ridiculous rhetoric that is OCD. And and they can often overlap. Uh, you know, you got our OCD when you're sitting down talking with good intentioned friends about your relationship, or you know, on onshore and this and that. And maybe your one friend's like, they're great, it's okay, it's great for you. You you seem happy. And on the other hand, another friend's going, Oh, well, if you know, go with your gut, go with your intuition. No, don't go with your gut and intuition.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

Wait till your gut's settled, and then that's a big deal, man. That gut, that intuition thing. And I think we see it a lot. The impact of that universal, and I'll say with air quotes, universal message. Go with your gut, intuition, gut feeling, like you just know it. You got to go with that. No, especially when you are digging and digging and digging for relationship advice and relationship coaching advice and how to build a relationship and how to know if they're the one, you're gonna see that message a lot. But for people with OCD or any anxiety disorder, your gut is epically wrong every single day and it's dragging you. So unfortunately, we have to skip the go with the gut until we're better, and then maybe we go back to that.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

One of the things I ask as a screener in here, whenever I'm working with someone with ROCD, is that I'll ask them, How do you feel when you're not anxious? Actually, all right. You know, like, yeah, I'm fine, pretty content. Yep, great. Those are the times when we're not in the hamster wheel of of ROCD to if you can't reflect and be like, actually, what are the other values here? I can reflect on my values. Am I is does this relationship for me happening right now is this okay? Obviously, if you're on a really fast hamster wheel of OCD, don't think about that yet until the theme's passed.

SPEAKER_04 16:00

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

But in general, yeah, that's the one where it's like, oh gosh, um I I I could have gotta kinda leave this rumination alone. That's where the skill between deciphering between what is reflection and rumination is so important.

SPEAKER_03 16:19

Usually you're looking for how urgent does it feel? When we sit and reflect on our lives and reflect on our relationships or whatever, our choices, it tends to not feel urgent or dangerous. Like, yeah, you know, I made some pretty bad choices. I'm gonna sit and write my journal about it. Like, yeah, okay, cool. There's nothing urgent about that. So be careful of like the urgency. No, no, no, no, no, no. The the the level of upset. I'm upset because maybe I made some bad choices in my or I shouldn't have said that when I had that fight, versus I am really disturbed and I feel threatened right now.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

That's that's so true. Yeah, I thought if for the people like, how do I know this is OCD? Well, as Drew says, does it feel very urgent? Yeah, and interestingly, most people that are with our OCD are in very happy, content relationships, but it feels urgent to wrestle and strive towards that 100% assurance.

SPEAKER_03 17:17

You know, it's it's funny because when we talk about any OCD OCD theme, including RCD, you know, you get to that point where that urgency makes it feel like I can't. That's why the compulsions are so hard to not do. The compulsion is meant to bring down your level of distress. Whether it's a mental compulsion or behavioral compulsion or both, that's meant to make you feel better in the moment. Then later on, you wish you hadn't done it because it's sort of ruining your life to a certain extent. But what you feel compelled, I must take action to alleviate this distress as quickly as possible. That's a good sign that like this could be veering into OCD territory.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:54

Yeah. I feel powerless to not do this action. I must do it. I must ask one more time. You love me, right? I have to, even though I just asked yesterday.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

And we're having fights over it now. I I feel like I have to ask. Or if I can't ask my partner, I'll my OCD gets really tricky and thinks it's super slick. And on the DL, it will ask my Facebook group or it'll ask my friend, and it'll like try and get my friend to sort of confirm for me that my partner does love me. Oh, I've seen all the things. Asking for a friend. OCD is the original asking for a friend. Sneaky reassurances, sneaky compulsions. Oh man, it and it thinks it's so clever, too. But it's Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

And and it can force you to behave against your own values too. Yeah. Like you mentioned at the start of the episode, like checking for an infidelity. Yeah, the anxiety so or like eavesdropping, phone checking, things like that. Even though rationally you know, and this person hasn't really given you any kind of excuse or not, you know, any reason to do this. But the threat response will try to convince you because of the urgency.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

The difficulty there too was it makes you I well, when you said it makes you act against your values dead on. Because this person felt compelled to do these things, couldn't not do those things, then hated that he was doing those things because he values honesty and like trust. And he has those things, but keeps trampling all over. So every time he checks the phone or eavesdrop or tries to clone, you know, no, no, no, I'm gonna break into her computer. Feels terrible. Yeah, they feel terrible. That's not who I am. That's not who I am. Why am I doing this?

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Yeah, and my response to that is OCD isn't who you are. But if you behave in response to the OCD, suggesting that this is a threat, you keep thanking the threat. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you know it's as easy as just stop behaving like it. I know it's tricky, I know it's horrible, and I know it feels this feels like the stakes are high. Yeah. But understanding it and developing that psychoeducation and that awareness is really important. Uh, even to the level of what else have I heard about ROCD? Oh, yeah. When we're anxious, we're in an irritable state. Do you get irritable when you're anxious, Drew?

SPEAKER_03 20:09

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

So if I've got ROCD and I'm sat trying to watch, I don't know, baby reindeer or something with my partner, and I'm anxious, and I've got this theme going on in my head, and I'm gonna and I feel irritable. My threat response is gonna be so finely attuned. A bit like the Misophonia episode we did with Dr. Jane Gregory. So we saw, well, you did, I wasn't on, but um that can be misinterpreted. So maybe your partner is drinking a drink and slurping and you're louder. Maybe they're eating and you're fine and you're tuning into the noises that irritate you. ROCD will use that. See, you're getting irritated with them now. You used to swoon on dates with this person, and now look, you're getting really irritated. See, this isn't perfect. Come come come into this room and ruminate with me for a few hours.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

That's a hell of an invitation. Come ruminate with me. You know, those study with me like YouTube videos, we should have ruminate with me. Huge. Two hours of rumination with soft music. Nobody's been doing that. Um, but yeah, you're right. OCD will absolutely invite you. Uh-oh, this looks like a problem. We better sit and think about this for a good long time.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

I often find that self-esteem, particularly with this theme, is prevalent or lack of self-esteem. Um I think there is an overlap with self-esteem and attachment as well. Sure. I think people who do have struggled with attachment issues in the past, um, maybe they've not um experienced a lot of secure attachment. Uh so if you've grown up in a home that's quite hostile, maybe there's very hot and cold relationships with people, maybe you've been in an abusive relationship, maybe yeah, maybe there's The brain hasn't learned to trust attachment. You will learn to crave deep down that you want attachment so badly. And so it means a lot to you. And that's what OCD loves. It means a lot to you. And you notice anything with OCD, anything with anxiety will attach to high stakes. For people with panic attacks, well, I I don't want a panic attack when I'm doing my presentation. High stakes. Yeah, driving. High stakes. Driving. Oh, that's high stakes there. Yeah. Uh and loads of it. You know, there's high stakes. Oh, I I'm nowhere near a hospital and I'm agrophobic. That's high stakes. I gotta take care of kids.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

What if I could say, well, I'm taking care of my kids? High stakes.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

High stakes. Always high stakes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Remember that. High stakes. And OCD, there's never a boring theme of OCD. No. Because it's always high stakes. Well, you didn't wash your hands, you might poison your niece. High stakes. You know what if what if you, you know, I actually love deep down my partner. This is high stakes. This is someone who's in my inner circle, my closest person to me, knows me more than anyone.

SPEAKER_04 23:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:14

High stakes. No wonder the threat response is latched onto that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm intrusive sexual thoughts about inappropriate things. You know, well, that's high stakes because if anyone finds that out, I'm going to be humiliated.

SPEAKER_03 23:26

I'm screwed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Yeah. And the reason my OCD kind of differs a bit to conventional anxiety. Conventional anxiety disorders? What the hell am I talking about? From other that doesn't make any sense. From other anxiety disorders is um that it will weaponize guilt more.

SPEAKER_03 23:44

Yeah, that's true. And a lot of different themes. Yeah, the themes that you think wouldn't be guilt-based tend to be. So that's a pretty good, pretty good uh situation there. But I think uh another thing that you run into is and you're right, there is overlap, self-esteem, your past experiences, attachment style could enter into this. That's true. It's part of what makes that relationship important to you, like Josh said. But interestingly, trying to use that as a lever against the OCD can really put you on a hamster wheel that you can't get off. So I've seen people who have ROCD turn to anxious attachment style or attachment theory. Okay, fair enough. There's nothing wrong with gaining understanding or maybe understanding your background or how you got there. There's nothing wrong with that. But then that became compulsive.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Searching for the miracle thought or the answer to make the feeling go away.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

I remember at one point, this was in my old Facebook group when that was active. It was it's oh, clearly it's anxious attachment. That's my problem. Clearly, that's what it is. And then that person got so attached to that that they were looking to their partner. Is this person modeling secure attachment now? How about now? Are they doing it now? Was that right?

SPEAKER_02 24:54

Uh yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

Is he fully supporting me now like my parents should have? It became then weeks later, it was like, this is a problem because now I'm stuck on that. I can't stop evaluating whether or not we're modeling secure attachment to each other. Because if we don't, then I will never solve my ROCD. Like, see how that works? Yeah, so such an important one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

But it's interesting because actually people, the silly part of it all and the annoying part of it all, where it becomes convulated, is actually people who have developed ROCD probably is worth exploring attachment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

But but not while the house is on fire. That's exactly. Yeah, put the fire out first. That's right. 100%. And interestingly, in the, you know, one of the things, and you know, we talk about this stuff. This is not picking on other therapists, but this is why specialization in anxiety disorders and OCD can really matter. Because some of the stuff that that I have heard by very excellent clinicians with the best of intentions that want to support their clients. Well, some of the strategies were like post-it notes around the bathroom, around the mirror, affirmations written, no, she loves me. She's the best, like she's a good person. And I'm well, wait a minute. And it's funny because then I become the, hey, what is this? What does Drew think about this? You know, like group meetings. It's like, oh, well, because he's the anxiety dude in the room. Like, well, I understand why you might think that's a good idea, but that's never, ever, ever going to be enough for the person with OCD. There are not affirmations enough in the universe. Run out of sticky pads in the world, it just wouldn't be enough. So it can get tricky, you know.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

Yeah. The answer to our OCD, if anyone's listening, struggling, is that we turn the threat response off when the amygdala. We do not try to solve a problem when the amygdala is firing off.

SPEAKER_03 26:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

We don't do it.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

Yeah. Because you can't. It's not listening.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

And you're seeing it through one lens, through one perspective. Imagine this kind of scenario where, like, yeah, this has popped into my head. If you ever watch golf, I watch the Masters. Most people think no, it's boring. But if you ever watch golf, watch it when the golfer, golfer's ball lands on the green. He walks over to the ball, and then he'll he or she will bend down, look at the ball, look at the and and see the trajectory to the hole. Then watch what they do. They walk around the ball and they study it from different angles to understand the makeup of the green. To understand, well, if I hit it here, where's it going here? etc. etc. They want to get the whole picture of the green. Whereas OCD anxiety is just seeing it from one perspective. You're the golfer just stood behind the ball looking forward. You're getting no conceptualization of the depth, the gradient of the green, the the everything around it. You're just getting one perceive. When the amygdala is turned off, you become the pacing golfer. You're looking around. Oh, I'm glad I walked and saw it from over here. Actually, you know what? I'm not actually happy in my relationship, but it's something I can work on because I really love my partner. Yeah. Oh, I'm so glad I'm doing this here. Rather than hyper focusing, being the golfer behind the ball. I love that analogy.

SPEAKER_03 28:08

That's I'm taking that, by the way. Only anxiety specialists watch golf and think, I'm gonna bring that into session.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Oh, yeah, I'm so bored.

SPEAKER_03 28:17

Always looking for like but I get that. I uh meanwhile, I'm all like, this is really good. I'm super pumped listening to you talk about this metaphor because we need them. And it's so hard to describe this stuff. Sometimes that is a great metaphor. Walk around the ball, look at the whole picture. That has to include when I know that I'm compelled to do things or compulsed to do things that I ultimately don't want to do, I have to look through that lens also. It's not the content of are they faithful? Is this perfect love? Also, I seem to have an OCD type problem at least, and I need to also look through that lens. I gotta look around and see the whole thing. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 28:56

Yeah, it's oh look, the gradient dips at the end because I've walked around and stood where the hole is. Right. I couldn't see that when I was over there because I'm only seeing it through one perspective.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

And then I keep missing the hole and wondering why. I keep trying, I keep putting and putting and putting and putting and never get it in.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Yeah, there we go. Golf analogies. If you'd thought that this podcast couldn't get any more dull.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Holy cow, we have to start talking about talking about golf announcers. I can't believe there's a golf analogy in one of my podcasts. Oh my god, I'm disgusted with myself.

SPEAKER_02 29:29

We're at the Ryder Cup. It's Europe versus America. Fletcher goes up to the T. Oh, it's a wonderful shop. Following his opponent is Lincoln. And I'm New York.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

I'm a terrible, terrible golfer.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

Ranked bottom in the US rankings.

SPEAKER_03 29:51

Gun in on a technicality threatening to sue the association. That would be me. That's why I'm at the Masters. I'm literally Bill Murray in Caddyshack.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

If you see the golf on TV, stop for a minute. Yeah. It will cut to someone on the green and be like, that is the perfect analogy for relationship OCD and other subtypes.

SPEAKER_03 30:15

I need to write to whoever is the top golf presenters, you guys call them over there. And please, can you put that in next time you're calling a whatever you call it, a match? What is golf? I don't know. Tournament. Put that in there next time somebody's on the green. This is an ROCD metaphor for all of you watching at home.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

And it's easier to walk around though, and easy to see whatever your theme is from different perspectives when you get up. Get off the hamster wheel. Stop kneeling behind the ball. Get up and look around for a little bit. And this doesn't mean rumination. This means, okay, I'm going to come back to this when I'm not anxious. I'm going to leave it alone.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

Which means I'm going to feel anxious and not try to fix it. Like, let me get up from behind the ball and walk around the green while all I want to do is stand in that one spot and look and look and look and look. Is really hard. Right. It's really hard. It feels wrong to get up and walk around the green using. Yeah, it feels really wrong. Just start like I'm not this isn't helping me. Like how am I supposed to look at all the angles? I know the angle. That person's cheating on me. Yeah, look, I'm right next to the ball. Right. How is that a how is that a problem?

SPEAKER_02 31:24

How can I get a better perspective than that? Right, exactly. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03 31:27

Milk in this cow. I love it. Yeah, but it's a really good analogy for those of you who've never played golf. And I'm almost one of them. First time I ever played golf, we started on one course and ended on another. That's all you need to know about me and golf. I don't own clubs anymore. Really? Accidentally wandered across to like another, we were in like the third hole of one course and went up on like the 11th hole of another. Didn't know, had no idea, no clue.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

I like it because it's mindful and it's uh attention external. I'm not very good at golf, but I like being out in nature, particularly a nice one. And sure. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah, I know I don't do all the poncy stuff.

SPEAKER_03 31:59

For a guy that talks about meditation and focus all the time. I am literally a guy pounding his club. Oh, I hate this game. I do not put me on a golf course. I can't do it. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

There's an exposure. Drew cannot do. I cannot do it, not doing it a man. So anyway. Yeah. Um, but yeah, but this applies to again, and we'll do other subtypes as well.

SPEAKER_03 32:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:20

Um, but this is uh we thought we'd do this one because we had a few messages. Um, the key is how do I need to turn the amygdala off first by showing it that it isn't being helpful here. Then when I have conventional, dare I say air quotes, normal worries about uh my relationship, I'm off the hamster wheel of relationship OCD here. Um perhaps because I've been to ERP therapy, exposure response prevention. Maybe I've spoken about it and worked about it through it with CBT, but I cannot find a singularity or a definitive answer in the frenzy of anxiety. So I'm gonna walk away for a bit, let the nervous system, the anxiety calm down, rewire my brain so that this topic isn't of urgency and an immediate threat. And then when my brain has been rewired and I come back to it and my amygdala is just firing off like you know, like crazy, then I can see it for what it really is. I can walk around the green and I can come to my own conclusions about the relationship. But if you're in this cycle now, walk away. You are not going to get an answer. I mean, walk away from the anxiety, don't walk away from your partner. That's only gonna fuel rumination. Yeah, shut up, Josh.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

Yeah, and I think also it's uh right, don't walk away from your partner. But also, I think where are you when you look around the green? It doesn't, I'm gonna, I gotta stop saying that. But at this point, when you be careful about how you're trying to solve the problem, also if you're immersed all day long, and your go-to is not so much anxiety information, but relationship information on social media. You're following all the relationship coaches and the love coaches and the attachment coaches, yeah, that's a problem because you're trying to solve the you're trying to solve that problem before you've turned down your lizard brain. And like I'm just digging into all these things and like I'm looking for the answers without discovering that like I have to learn to not do that and just be uncomfortable. Maybe with knowing that I'm not gonna get the magic advice today from that dating or relationship guru on Instagram, I might miss it. That person might tell me the thing that I need to hear today. Guess what? I'll have to risk missing it and see if I can tolerate that distress, and that's how you start to turn down the volume.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

No miracle thoughts. There's no, no, there's not. How does this re I think it's important to actually talk about how this relates to other themes? So if you're a checker, yep, the equivalent would be I want to check the front door. Right. No, I'm gonna walk away because I'm on the hamster wheel now. I'm gonna walk away and be with that feeling for a bit. The more you do that, you re-wire you rewire the brain. Yep. Exposure response prevention. I'm not checking the the door or the plugs. I'm not gonna wash my hands. Oh my gosh, but the stakes are high. No, and the more I do that, the more I rewire my brain. Yeah, yeah. Uh oh, maybe I have there, I have got a brain aneurysm, so I'm gonna keep checking my vision and my head. No, you're not gonna do that. And the more you do that, the more you rewire your brain. But what if my partner isn't the one for me? You know, what if I'm wasting my time? I'm only here on this planet for a certain amount of time. What if I'm wasting it the wrong person? No, right? You're gonna turn around and walk away until that threat response calms.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

Yeah, you're almost those experiences are just designed to show that, like, I don't have to solve this distress. I can rely on the principle that left alone, all states are transient. That's what all of this is based on. And if I let it alone and let it dissipate on its own, oh look, I can do that. I didn't actually have to solve that problem. Look at that. Who knew?

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Yeah, yeah. Uh let's do more themes in the future. Absolutely. I'll pick more sport analogies.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

Uh to watch more golf. I'll try and bring a hockey analogy in next time if I can. I'm working on it.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

Yeah, yeah. Let's do that. Um, as usual, we like to uh interact with the community and the sending in. What should we do, Drew?

SPEAKER_03 36:12

Should we do uh well, we have a question. Do you have any did it anyways? You have to have a written did it anyways?

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Two health-related did it anyways. Let's hear them and then we'll answer a question. I've got a very short one. Yep. Uh so it this one was sent in. Um didn't say they could use the name. It's just a very short and simple one. I love it. And it will deserve an applause. I resisted a whole hour before opening a letter from the hospital. Health anxiety sufferer for 20 years. I just got floppy and waited for my amygdala to do one. Thank you so much for your books and podcasts. They are invaluable.

SPEAKER_03 36:49

That is awesome. I waited for my amygdala to do one.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

Is that one of the most British things we've ever had on the podcast?

SPEAKER_02 36:57

That's a British thing, it must be a British thing. Yeah, I love it. Just do one amygdala.

SPEAKER_03 37:02

I went floppy. I went floppy. That's the ragdoll thing we used to use in my Facebook group. Ragdoll.

SPEAKER_02 37:07

Go flop, yeah. Well done. Really good. A whole hour as well. And you bet you were, you know, and actually it kind of ties into this because health anxiety is a subtype of OCD. Oh, yeah. Um, a whole hour, you're like, oh, my anxious response needs to open this. No, I'm gonna do the opposite. I'm gonna step off the hamster wheel for a bit. Fantastic. Um, and here's another one. Success story, and did it anyway. I needed to have blood drawn. Not just go get blood drawn, but blood drawn whilst fasting for 12 hours. We know for some people that can trigger anxious symptoms. And the clinic is an hour away. First, the fasting took away all my safety behaviors like drinking tea nonstop, magnesium supplements, and eating first thing in case of feeling lightheaded. Second, the clinic being an hour away with agrophobia and driving anxiety. This is good already. I woke up after barely sleeping, shaking, sweating, pacing, all the feelings. In my mind, I said, I can't do this, but my body kept getting ready to leave. Anticipatory anxiety while driving to the appointment was high, multiple panic, but my body kept driving. I looked for places to pull over and turn around, but I didn't. Got to the clinic, walked in shaking, panicking, and told the nurse I'm a mess. She said, okay, and sat me down and talked to me while she kept going with the drawer. After three minutes, it was all over. I had done it. I got in the car and told my mum I would drive home. Had another oh, we should have got Billy Mays for that. Had another adrenaline rush on the way home, but I ignored it and got home. Now I'm sitting here drinking my tea and eating. Not reaching right away for my magnesium either, feeling hopeful.

SPEAKER_03 38:58

Oh, that's really good.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

The dreaded blood draw. That's like that was such a good exposure for so many reasons. Um, yeah, agrophobia, the the the reliance on crutches, like uh, you know, I must make sure my body is in an optimum state so I don't feel anxious. No, your body can can exist when it's not in an optimum state, when you're hungry, tired, whatever. It's still capable. Well done.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

Yeah, you gotta actively manage that blood sugar, but did you? Turns out you didn't. So great lesson. And the fact that that person was open to let me try and learn some stuff from this, that is key. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Yeah, it was so good. And uh and really apologize for not uh putting in Billy Mays there when it should have done because we do love the uh and I'm not done yet. Um I'll I will. You deserve one there with the areas, it's worth it.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

But I'm not done yet! Sorry if it was after the fact. Maybe I can edit it. We'll see. How about we end with a question? We have a question that was sent in that should be a quick one to answer. Might as well do it, right? Cool. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Hi, Josh and Drew. Thank you for everything you do. I really appreciate the podcast. I have a question about distractions. I'm having a hard time distinguishing when I'm doing avoidance behaviors and trying not to feel certain feelings, and when I'm doing uh healthy distractions and bringing my focus away from the internal dialogue. So if you could just maybe talk a little bit more about how to distinguish between those two, that would be so helpful. Thank you again for everything.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

Oh, you're very welcome. Thanks for the question. What do you think about that? We did an episode on that. Can't hear you.

SPEAKER_02 40:47

Sorry, um the internet slash universe muted me, probably for good reason. Um no, I want I I it muted me because it wanted you to answer it, Drew.

SPEAKER_03 40:58

It did, it totally did. Do you really want me to answer that? I can answer that.

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Yes, I want you to answer it. I've spoken enough this at this point.

SPEAKER_03 41:03

That's fine. We did an episode on that. If you go to disorder.fm and search for distraction. I believe we did an episode on distraction, but it comes up a lot because I think it's a good question because it's so nuanced and it's so subtle, and you're gonna get it wrong sometimes, and that's okay, because we can never totally be sure, right? Am I distracting from this the right or am I doing the perfect, healthy, correct refocusing? I don't know. Maybe a little bit of both. Don't know. Look for your intent. So I always try and say, set the intent ahead of time. I'm going to try to engage with life, whatever it was that looked like in the moment when I was triggered, and I'm gonna bring the feelings or the thoughts or the symptoms with me, as opposed to I need to do this so it goes away. That's the that's the concept to go on. Whether you get it perfectly right, who knows? And it's okay if you don't. You gotta learn through experience with this. And practice.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

Um that's why I got you to answer, because that was an excellent answer. Yeah. Uh also listen to the realist to the attitude shift um episode because what attitude are you using this distraction? I like distraction. My rule is anything but rumination, anything but compulsion, anything but the inwards compulsion. If you need to use distraction initially to get off the hamster wheel, great. I would, you know, and then you build and practice from there.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

I mean, in the end, all refocus is distraction. That's true. There's an element of distraction every time we do what non-anxious us would do. But it's just what's the intent?

SPEAKER_02 42:34

A compassionate reframe is no, I'm choosing to focus on this instead.

SPEAKER_03 42:38

Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:38

Because that's 100% accurate. No, I'm choosing to focus on this instead.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

And yeah, which is good.

SPEAKER_03 42:44

Am I open to learning a lesson from this? Yeah, then I'm good. I don't have to evaluate whether I perfectly focused or if I imperfectly distracted. Don't don't get too caught up in that. Kind of tough. No. Good question. Thanks for sending it in, though. Anyway, I think we're good. 43 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Thank you very much, Drew, as always. Um, UK listeners or Europe listeners, uh, we're we're behind on the against the US podcast reviews, apparently. So come on, if you're on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, uh, give us a nice review if you want. Or you could roast us, preferably a nice one, uh, and let's catch up the US again and um and actually get them back for that civil war.

SPEAKER_03 43:23

Wow. That's I still haven't gotten over that whole 1776 thing.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Still not over it, Drew.

SPEAKER_03 43:30

You ungrateful bastard Yankees over here.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

Living vicariously through the odd colonial achievements of my great-great-great-great-grandparents. There's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

I ain't judging you for that.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

So apart from pretty much everything is wrong with it, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

All right. Thanks everybody for listening. We'll see you guys next week. And uh yeah, check us at disorder.fm and follow us on social media, anxiety josh and the anxious truth. See you later. Catch you soon.

SPEAKER_04 43:55

Yep.