Productivity Anxiety (Episode 040)

SPEAKER_03 0:01

I should be doing something else. I should be doing something for my kids. I should be on Duolingo learning Japanese. I should be bettering myself.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

I want to be the person that gets things done. I want, I like to be seen that way, or I like to see myself that way.

SPEAKER_03 0:14

If I keep myself busy, then I won't feel what I feel, and therefore I can be less anxious because I'm preoccupied. Because if you constantly feel like you need to be productive, the threat response thinks that it's being helpful by reminding you that you should be productive all the time, constantly.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

If you're not meeting your productivity goals, whatever those are, in whatever domain of your life it is, you'll feel like you're doing it wrong. And it's, I gotta fix this. It's a bad I don't like this feeling of doing it wrong, so I need to fix that feeling. Compulsive or recovery productivity anxiety is also a real thing for sure.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 40 entitled Productivity Anxiety. My name is Joshua Fletcher, and I'm a psychotherapist based in Manchester in the UK. I specialize in working with anxiety disorders, and I'm a previous sufferer. I'm really happy to be an author, a podcast host, and a content creator on the subject.

SPEAKER_02 1:14

I turn on my volume button. I am Drew Linsolata, co-host of Disordered. I am a therapist in training in New York and the U.S., getting closer. An author, a podcaster, an educator on the subject of anxiety disorders, and a past sufferer for many, many years of anxiety disorders and depression. So let's talk about productivity anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

Productivity. Just a note before we get into this much requested topic. A big thank you to everyone who has pre-ordered my book that's out in March, getting closer. It's Gordon, how's that make you feel? Um, I stand by what I said in the last episode. If you pre-order it, just drop me an email with your proof of purchase and I will answer any question you have and send some advice over. Do you know what, Drew? I thought I'd be really arduous task. I've been enjoying doing it every time. I'll just pace around uh answering questions or using audio clips and uh send them back. And people are like, oh, that's it's it's uh tailored to me and they can hear my rambling. So yeah, big thank you. If you pre-order the book, I'll see I'll give you a special uh bespoke answer.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Yeah, very good. I love the pacing around part, it's the best part.

SPEAKER_03 2:23

Yeah, yeah, getting the blood flowing, doing all that. Yeah, it's all right.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way, uh, we're recording in December of 2023. So if you're listening a year from now, the book's already out. And the pre-orders, yeah, I guess I have to make a note of that. But uh, yeah, very good. Let's talk about productivity anxiety. What is it?

SPEAKER_03 2:41

Definitely. Um, something I I probably still not struggle with, but crops up now and then, particularly when you've got many work commitments and things on the go. Um I think I've got a healthy relationship with productivity anxiety. Uh, it looks like um feeling anxious, unable to sit still, and it's a feeling of guilt because you feel like you should be doing something else. I should be using this time to be more productive. And this is a voice of anxiety too. I should. A lot of it is what if with productivity anxiety, it's I should. Did you ever experience it?

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Oh, yeah, 100%. Um, it's funny because I feel like I have more productivity anxiety in my life now than I did when I was really struggling with an anxiety disorder. Even this morning, I I have a I always have a lot going on when you know me, and I love what I do, but I have to be very careful to get not get caught up and I'm gonna try and plan 16 things that I want to get done today because I want to do them. I'm not pressured to do them, but then I put pressure on myself, and then I'm like, why are my shoulders up around my ears? Why am I clenching my jaw? And why do I feel all keyed up today? Oh, that's why. Yeah. Duh. Yeah. Yeah, it affects into it a lot.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

It affects people differently. Um, people without anxiety disorders will have productivity anxiety. I I go to um uh do a lot of talks uh in businesses and corporations and organizations about productivity anxiety, and everyone's just kind of nodding their head like, yeah, yeah, that applies to me. Uh, but this could be even like when you're at home, but I should be doing something else. I should be doing something for my kids, I should be on Duolingo learning Japanese, I should be bettering myself. Uh, these are the people that struggle to stay in first gear. Uh and they're scared of it often because being in first gear, being sedentary is very confronting.

SPEAKER_02 4:37

It means you're gonna feel your feelings and hear your thoughts, and yeah. And I think there's certain element of, you know, we talked about this in the GAT episodes and in other episodes, there's that personal identity crisis a little bit that comes along with that. You know, I want to be the person that gets things done. I want, I like to be seen that way, or I like to see myself that way. And if I'm not living up to that expectation, then I, you know, I get all nervous and I get afraid, and it can really spiral for sure, 100%. And if you're dealing with an anxiety disorder, it will fuel that in a big way.

unknown 5:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:10

On the flip side as well, if you are someone with GAD, and we recently did like a GAD episode, a lot of people use busyness and productivity as an avoidance technique. Yeah. If I just keep myself busy from dusk till dawn, from dusk till dawn, from dawn till dark, depending. I you could work nights. Yeah, sure. Uh yeah, very I remember that movie, 90s. Um yeah, if I keep myself busy, then I won't feel what I feel, and therefore I can be less anxious because I'm preoccupied. Um I know people in my life, even without an anxiety disorder, that do this because they're just afraid of what they'll feel. Maybe it isn't just anxiety and fear and scary symptoms. Maybe it's things like shame or our friend Craig the critic, who will sit there and be and berate you for not doing what you should be doing.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Yeah, because it makes you it makes me a good parent if I do, if I'm always reading parenting articles and preparing meals and meal planning and taking care of my kid's schedule, it makes me a bad entrepreneur. I want to talk about that because that whole hustle culture thing is a big, big problem. And that fuels a lot of anxiety in our community. But yeah, you're not doing it right, man, says Craig the Critic. It's Craig the Critic. You know, you're supposed to grind the grind, bro. Yeah, right. Get on the grind. You know, what do you mean you don't have time to do all those projects? Get up at 3 a.m., man. You just that's an excuse, man. Like we'll talk about that. I can rant for a half hour on that.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

Yeah, and that I'll be honest, I'm not very efficient with my time. That's all right. You are amazing at doing it. You are honestly, you could do multiple projects at once. I can I struggle to sequence, I think it's part of my neurodivergence. Yeah, and I just sometimes sit there and procrastinate hard. Uh, because you can't talk about productivity anxiety as well without talking about procrastination.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

That's a good point. That's a really good point because it is. What about that thing? Do you find that thing where you're getting a little bit overwhelmed by the productivity anxiety or the productivity demands? And so it's almost the uh procrastination becomes an avoidance of that. Uh, I've heard people talk about procrastination, revenge procrastination. I don't like these demands, so therefore I will procrastinate every revenge. Fascinating to me. I might do that a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

I know on TikTok there's this phenomenon. It's like, yeah, do you do you lie in bed? And you I'm about a thousand well-being people have done this on the TikTok. It's like, do you lie in bed and you know you should go to sleep, but you find yourself scrolling till 2 a.m.? This is called revenge, bedtime procrastination. You know, the the you know, like the authors of the DSM are like, hmm. Yeah. Uh but yeah, it's a thing, and um, it's usually when we rebel and the inner voice inside us is like, what about me? What about our time to switch off? What about you know, it's always we we want to utilize the hours in the day. I'm still that person, uh, better than I was, but you know, I go to bed when I'm tired, and sometimes when I feel like I've not had enough me time in a day, I'll make sure I squeeze it in the day somehow.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Yeah, which means staying up a little later. I have that problem for sure. I'm I might be diagnosed with revenge bedtime for that. What is it? What do you call revenge bedtime regret? Well, what's the ICD code for that? F what? Like I get it. But yeah, that's a thing. And I think another place that productivity anxiety shows itself is people who are trying to recover all the time. You know, if you're dealing with an anxiety disorder and you're actively engaged in the process of recovery, I know a lot of people that think that they should spend every waking moment recovering or they're not doing it right. So there's recovery productivity. You know, you can't be recovering during every waking moment. It's not possible. It's not even advisable, even if you could have until you do that.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

No, I was speaking to someone this morning and saying, you know, the two magic rules in my practice are do what non-anxious you would do. And when you are anxious, golden rule number two is ask yourself, is what I'm doing right now teaching the brain, the amygdala, that this anxiety is okay? This applies to productivity anxiety. Because if you constantly feel like you need to be productive, the threat response thinks that it's being helpful by reminding you that you should be productive all the time, constantly. Um, and yeah, it can easily lead to compulsions, like compulsions like, oh, there's another anxiety book I haven't read. You know, actually, I know one you haven't read, it's out in March, go buy it. But in general, here's another anxiety book I haven't read. Um there's there's there's another technique I've not seen, there's something that I'm missing. I need to be productive in my recovery. And actually, a lot of it is like golden rule number one. You know, do what non-anxious you would do. And that yeah, and non-anxious you wouldn't be trolling and doing this and compulsively finding the answers, the miracle answers to feel better. No, actually, sometimes it's lying down, feeling a bit uncomfortable, and kind of simulating just what you do on a Sunday afternoon. I don't know, maybe you'd be chilling out. Who knows? Right. You know, you don't need to pour your everything into recovery because it can often become paradoxical.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

And that becomes a practice too, in a way. I mean, you don't want to compulsively try and find the practice in everything, but I think the idea I always tell people like, well, then do go do it wrong today. Go recover wrong today. And that'll make you feel uncomfortable. Like, oh, this means I might never get better. I'm gonna break my recovery. Go ahead and allow that thought and allow that feeling. That's okay. You know, so compulsive or recovery productivity anxiety is also a real thing for sure. Um, I've had people apologize to me, like in the comment section, oh, I'm sorry, I haven't listened to that episode yet. Like, it's okay. You don't have to apologize for not being completely caught up on the podcast. That's that's not a thing. Yeah, that's that's a little bit of recovery productivity. Yeah, like I'm not doing my recovery right. I haven't listened to all the episodes yet. That's okay. It's all right. You know, you're allowed to take your time. Nothing wrong with that. But uh, you know, it's tough. I think, and I think recovery productivity will lead you to feel uncomfortable if you're not meeting your productivity goals, whatever those are, in whatever domain of your life it is, you'll feel like you're doing it wrong. And it's I gotta fix this. It's a bad, I don't like this feeling of doing it wrong, so I need to fix that feeling.

SPEAKER_03 11:29

But do you what's that kind of cliche? Work smart, not work long, or something like that. That applies. Work smarter recovery. Yeah, work smart. The same applies with anxious recovery, work smarter.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Yeah, work harder. I wasn't sure where you were going with that, so I had that. I was ready for a quick eye roll because there's so many ridiculous productivity axioms and things that are not helpful. So uh yeah, for sure. But you're right, work smarter, not harder is is definitely a thing, but as long as you don't try to compulsively work smarter, you know.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

Yeah, uh and just and just go easy. Don't don't make your life entirely about being productive, whether it's conventional productivity um or whether it's working on your anxious recovery. I mean, if you're working a busy job, you know, this is where boundaries are really important. Rules like I don't if it gets to a certain time of the day, I'm gonna just stop. That's my boundary. I'm not even getting paid to work at this stupid hour. You know, I'm being pressured into it by the culture, the grind culture. And then sometimes we can take that same unhelpful mindset into a process of anxious recovery where you're kind of asking you to do less. You know, do it, work smart. It's like, okay, I'll do my exposures, but also I'm kind of pouring a lot of energy and resources into ruminating, resource gathering, pouring everything. Actually, no, like I know what I've gone. I've got my exposure ladder. I know what to do when I'm anxious. I've got to lean into uncertainty. I don't need to keep you know piling everything up and and and pouring everything into this too, because you can do anxious recovery in first gear and you can do anxious recovery in fifth gear.

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Yeah, and that the context is going to change from day to day, even from hour to hour. Sometimes it's fifth gear and sometimes it's first gear. And you know, if we lean on that, the concept of psychological flexibility, which is a big part of recovery, like you're learning to be a little bit more psychologically flexible and accepting of all the different moods and feelings and experiences, that sometimes you feel like you're doing a great job with it, and sometimes you're not. And I think one manifestation, uh-oh, danger word, but one of one sign or way that you might see productivity anxiety is constantly evaluating your mental state or your internal state. Is what I'm doing creating the right state for me. I feel I feel achievement, I feel good about my we all want to feel good about it. There's nothing wrong with that. But when you're constantly trying to work properly to create the right internal experience of happiness or contentment or gratitude or recovery or whatever, and you're not willing to accept that, sometimes you'll be confused or feel lazy or feel unaccomplished or feel like you missed something, those are valid feelings too. We're allowed to experience them as well without always trying to fix them. So that's a complicated or very nuanced thing. But I think recovery anxiety will show itself, not recovery, productivity anxiety will show itself that way too.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

Yeah. Yeah. In the context of this podcast, and if you're someone who tunes in regularly, um you've got to look out specifically for Craig the Critic in this one. Craig the Critic will be about trying to dictate your day, your behaviors, things like that. And it might even be to a case of, you know, all right, you did an exposure in your brave, but why can't you why couldn't you go further? Why couldn't you do more? You used to be able to. Oh, you're not being productive today, have you? That's Craig the critic right there. Whereas actually it'd be like, no, I've I've been productive today. I I sat out and did something uncomfortable and practiced my willful tolerance, and that's good. I don't need to now do 50 more exposures today.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

It's a proof that I did it right. Yeah. Yeah. And I sometimes it's like, well, I'm really uncomfortable or unsure of my recovery today, or my job, or my entrepreneurship, or my parenthood, or whatever, my partner, romantic partner status. But that's also progress. If I'm feeling a little uncomfortable and I work on being able to tolerate that discomfort for a little while until it passes, I'm also working on important things. So sometimes we miss that part. And I, you know, there's not only one craig becredic. Well, he there's one, but he'll take fuel from the million other people all around us that are giving us those messages, those toxic productivity messages, whether it's a mental health or wellness or working or career or money. This is the way you do it right. Why you gotta do it like that guy? Get up at four o'clock in the morning, take an ice bath, read stoic philosophy for two hours, take notes, highlight it, post on Instagram, do 75 hard workout.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Like, oh my god. I had a lion this morning. I slept until 11 a.m. You know why? Because I didn't sleep very well. Um I'm lucky enough to be able to have a job that does that. Um well, kind of. I did rearrange things. I was like, I just I didn't sleep very well last night. I and I I could have got up, but I was like, nah, I'm just gonna. When was the last time I had a lion? A long time ago. I was like, I'm just gonna have a lion now. You know, Craig the Crit can shout, oh get up, you lazy slum. Nah, I'm I'm good, mate.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

I'm good. Yeah, it is what it is. And like, okay, in that situation, well, I'll I I'll take the opportunity to rearrange my day a little bit. And I think a lot of people might be crippled by that. No, if I if I reschedule that meeting, that means I'm doing it wrong. I'm not supposed to reschedule meetings. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Well, you're gonna remember as well, people with with productivity anxiety and an anxiety disorder, uh, one can often contribute to the other. I see this quite a lot. Uh, for people who see who value themselves on productivity, who value themselves on their output instead of intentions and effort, uh, are the people susceptible to filling up their stress drug and taking on too much, using too many resources up, and then again, you know, the drug overflows and we can enter a very sensitized state, which makes us you know susceptible to experiencing disordered anxiety. Um, these are the people that then will often use that same mentality of well, if I just get everything done and get out of an anxiety disorder, when actually these are the these are the same people and I I always do the GAD question, uh which is my my own GAD question like if I could sit you on a chair in the middle of an empty room with no distractions for 10 minutes, just your thoughts, how would you feel? And they usually like, oh my god, that sounds horrendous. I was like, Yeah, well then this is this is it. You know you're doing better when you sit there and be like, Well, I just feel a bit bored.

unknown 18:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:24

Oh, I'm quite content to sit there for 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

Or even well, that's really uncomfortable, but I can do it for 10 minutes. Yeah, I can do that.

SPEAKER_03 18:32

Rather than that, that kind of conditioned, I'm judged on my output. I am judged on the final product, the final output. And these are people that often grow grow up with very high expectations, whether directly or indirectly. Some people, you know, with parents that are like, You must get all A's, you must be a megastar, you know, I'm gonna live vicariously through you, etc. And then you never learn that it's okay to be less than 100%. So you're the person there writing to-do lists every day, endless to-do lists, maybe on your phone, maybe on paper, and you keep ticking them off. And there's some enjoyment in that, but then you look down at it again, and the the list is still the same size.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

That's right.

SPEAKER_03 19:12

It never ends. Yeah, you you're if you that's you, you've got productivity anxiety, and that's often related to your esteem quite a lot. Like, oh, I only have value when I do stuff. No, you have value when you be.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Yeah, or you're chasing ideals. And I, you know, that go back to the parental thing, like you must get straight A's, like we're or where you're only praised, you know, when you do well. And there's never that that understanding that, like, well, that's really great. You did your best and it turned out really great. But you know, even if it didn't turn out okay, it's that's okay. You know, that's a powerful message, I think, that sometimes we don't get growing up. That, like, all right, well, it turned out great this time, and that's awesome, we'll celebrate it. But even if it didn't, it would be okay. You just do the best you can. That's a good a lot of people don't ever get that.

SPEAKER_03 19:59

Judging yourself on intentions is so important and so compassionate. And I think that that applies to everything anxiety disorders and just living day-to-day. Yeah, if you're a parent who beats yourself up and has loads of guilt and things like that, judge yourself on your intentions. Did you intend to be a good parent that day? Great idea. Did you, I don't know, mess up dinner or perhaps reprimand your child a bit strongly or get a few things wrong? It doesn't matter. You're intending to be a good parent, you're not gonna get it right. And uh same applies at work. Did you intend to make that mistake? Did you no? Judge yourself on your intentions and effort, as opposed to I have to have this big shiny badge at the end of it all to persuade myself that I've been productive. Yeah, I have done it. And that applies to anxiety disorders too.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Yeah, recovery any part of your life. And it really, you could find this woven into all like some of the great philosophies of the world. The process, even in recovery, the magic is in the process, not the outcome. It's process driven. The cliche is it's not the journey, it's not the destination, it's the journey. Yeah, we can all roll our eyes at that, but there's truth in that too. Like the be process focused. It helps you be connected in each moment and be okay in each moment, even though maybe it's not going so great. Not so worried about the next moment. You'll find this woven into all the great philosophies, into a lot of mental health paradigms. And yet we still shoot for the brass ring all the time, especially surrounded by messages of perfect parenting and perfect entrepreneurhood and perfect business and perfect finances and perfect wellness and fitness and fashion and everything. And like, well, yeah, but you're shooting for that end result. What was the process today? Were you able to engage more fully in the process of what you're doing with the intention you brought with it? And that's a win.

SPEAKER_03 21:47

It's a win. Were you reading these philosophies after your 4 a.m. iceberg?

SPEAKER_02 21:52

I was, of course I was. But you know, it's interesting. I I think that's a thing. Those are things that I do enjoy studying.

unknown 21:59

But

SPEAKER_02 22:00

I don't feel if I don't, if I don't read any philosophy books for three weeks, I don't feel like I've failed. It's just I would like to read something. I really want to read that book. I haven't gotten to it yet. It's okay. Just be careful about the whole like that's product that's personal growth or wellness productivity anxiety. I I have to do this to be a better person, to be the optimal me.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

No, you don't. My optimal self. Drew helped me write um a chapter of the book that's coming up called My Optimal Self. That's right. Yeah, uh, and it's towards the end. Uh so if you buy the book and read it, just know that Drew helped me to write that. So I've got my optimal self, which is that that kind of basically it's productivity, anxiety in a nutshell. Now, if you want to do these things and bet yourself, good, that's great. But if you're doing it to run away from a feeling, that's not the right reason. If you're doing it to embrace a new feeling, that's okay. But sometimes we do it to run away from shame, run away from anxiety itself and panic and things like that, then that's the wrong reason. If you're doing it to run away from Craig the Crick, no. I mean, use it a bit, you know, be like, I can prove you wrong, that's fine. Yeah. But if you're doing it to run away to completely because you're fearful of these feelings, then try not to fall into that productivity anxiety. Put the to-do list down for a little bit and just be like, oh, I'll set with this. I don't care. You don't you're not gonna bother me today. These feelings are transient.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Yeah. I think it's be we bear noting also that, like, again, I'm not trying to be the get off my lawn guy when it comes to social media content, but in the same vein, you said before, like maybe you maybe you uh to-do lists are helpful, and especially like in the neurodivergent community, I hear it all the time. Like keeping lists and keeping track of things help me because of the way my brain works. Cool, awesome. You use it as a tool. But sometimes the tools can fuel productivity anxiety because we're surrounded by uh it's toxic positivity culture. I can name some names, but I won't. There are some very huge YouTubers and influencers in the productivity space that if you watch them for more than a week, you would have to start to think this is not healthy. Because the messages of this is how I read a thousand books a year. I download everything on Kindle, and if I'm walking, I'm listening to audiobooks, and I take my notes and I have this app to do this notes, and I have this app as my to-do list, and here's my productivity workflow. And after a while, it's like, oh my God, uh, you know, I'm freaking out just watching this because I can't possibly live up to that. That is the like top 1% of outliers that seem to thrive or are being damaged. Some of them I've even heard say, like, this is probably not healthy for me, so be careful listening to me. I'm like, that's respect to that. So be careful because when you try to solve your productivity anxiety, sometimes you get sucked into the solutions as themselves a productivity anxiety trap.

SPEAKER_03 24:53

Chasing a feeling, yeah, you know, chasing uh an idealistic feeling rather than when that those resources are better spent actually reflecting on what you've done right in life, particularly at this time of the year. This is obviously being recorded in December. The last episode we did was on holiday season anxiety, and it's like you know, your Christmas Day, if you're a parent or whatever, it's not gonna look like it looks off on you on social media, and you know, mine certainly won't. I'll be face down with a glass of whiskey. I've eaten about five selection boxes. I I'm watching Muppet's Christmas Carol, uh belching. That Merry Christmas, everyone. You know, that's great. I could go and put on my matching family pajamas and stand in front of this big beautiful tree in front of a big beautiful in a big beautiful house and smile and show everyone how well my life is going. I could do that very easily, but I'm not because I'm gonna be authentic and it's fine. There'll be no productivity anxiety come Christmas time in my household.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

Can confirm that I've Josh and I have been friends long enough where I know that I'll probably get a message from him, a Merry Christmas message, and it's gonna be like Billy Bob Thornton and bad Santa. Like, and that's totally okay. So um, it's all good. It's not that bad. I'm joking. But uh it's again the willingness to accept that I don't have to work so hard and be so productive, and air quotes, apply that how you will, to create a certain outcome and then feeling all the feelings are valid, all the outcomes are okay. I mean, within limits, of course, but you know, if you're driven and driven and driven to always find the right feeling and always get the right outcome, that's a form of productivity anxiety for sure. Or it's contributing to the difficulties you might be having.

SPEAKER_03 26:53

I remember friends and family used to tell me when I had productivity anxiety that I made them anxious because they could sense how the urgency in my own attitude to want to do the next thing and the next thing. You know, and it was a bit like Josh, just like chill out, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

Can you just like hang out with us for a while and be here for a while instead of already already an hour down the road? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

I just need to add something to my LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Oh no, I'm never gonna add anything to my LinkedIn, but yeah, it's definitely a thing. I've had people say, to be honest with you, you've been involved with some of the work that we've done a lot of work together, but I've had friends and and colleagues and collaborators say, You freak me out, man, because like I feel like uh I you you're uh I can't try to meet that level. And I'm like, ooh, that's a clue for me that says I might be, I need to take a break.

SPEAKER_03 27:47

I think no, this is really interesting for listeners. Drew's productivity is admirable. I think it's fantastic, but it's healthy because I what I look at your product productivity, stuff you do. I mean, you're studying, you can study to be a therapist, you do this podcast, you're owned all these things, but you still have time to relax, you're just very good and efficient. Uh, I will never ever reach anywhere any of that level. But guess what? I'm happy with that. Like he's good, you know, he's good. I'm just gonna work smart, you know, and that's and that's fine. You know, like I can work smart. I get my I my my brain, just I think it's the neurodivergence as well. Just my brain will just get caught off somewhere as well, and then go off and and be like, oh, there it is, there it goes again. But this is the same brain that's got me here, right? You know, that's fine.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

It's like the world needs all different people. We ever world needed here.

SPEAKER_03 28:40

Yeah, exactly. So it should be celebrated. I don't think there's any any shell. You just that's that's one of your strengths, you know. Your dress sense comes at the cost of that. Everything else, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

My fashion sense suffers from my fashion. Hey, excuse me, I was in Vogue magazine, just saying, like you were in Vogue magazine. Thankfully, only a text was. Thank God. Never put a picture of me in Vogue magazine. Believe me, I got a lot of ribbing over that.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

Like, you are in Vogue magazine, really just lying side on on a log with the light over you as you're wearing some kind of cash mask.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

That's disturbing. Getting the ick from that image. Anyway, should we move on to some community stuff? We have some questions, we got some did it anyways.

SPEAKER_03 29:26

Yeah, we've got uh so I was reading through the email, did it anyways? Uh not did it anyways, questions today. Uh, should we start with the Did It Anyway, though?

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Yeah, we got a couple of really great Did It Anyways today, so let's play this first one because it's a really good one. Um, let me open it with this app. I'm a little bit not prepared. DJ Drew is failing. High productivity anxiety. Ready?

SPEAKER_00 29:48

Hey Drew and Josh. I want to thank you very much, guys, for everything you're doing. Your podcast has been very um helpful in my recovery journey. Uh, for some context, I moved to Germany um two and a half years ago, and it's been very stressful. It's been very um challenging for me as someone who has anxiety. My anxiety actually flared up uh a couple of months after I moved here, and I started having all these symptoms, and then it developed into some health anxiety and some social anxiety, and then I was basically housebound. I started having panic attacks every day, it was really, really bad. However, I have gone a very long way ever since. And today I had tickets for a concert of my favorite artist of all time. Um, my husband got me those tickets as a birthday gift, but unfortunately, he had a family emergency and he couldn't go with me to the concert. I had all the reasons in the world not to go to this concert. It's very far away from home, and I've never been to a concert alone by myself, never, but for some reason, two hours before the concert, I got up. I went to the concert, I had the time of my life. I just got back home and I felt like sharing this with you guys. And if you would have told me one year ago that I would live a day like this and I would do something like this, I wouldn't have believed myself. So I just wanted to share this with you. Get it anyway.

SPEAKER_03 31:05

Oh yeah, so lovely. You could hear the pride in the voice, and and well, well deserved. You should be proud. I had two. I love that. Two hours before, like, I'm gonna do it anyway. Why not? The amount of stuff you'd have learned. I hope the concert was fantastic. Uh, I kind of want to know who it was, but there we go. Savorite artist of all time, that's what counts. That does, yeah, that's what counts. Then ignore my nosiness. Well done. That's absolutely outstanding, and thank you for sharing that with us.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

I love how she acknowledged too. I had every reason to not go. Like, all right, cool, but you did it anyway. That's so important to recognize that. I did not listen to the doubt. I went against that urge and worked out okay. I learned some stuff. Love it. And you got the credit for it as well. Absolutely. Love that. Um, should we go to a question? You have any questions, and then we'll do another did it anyway.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

Yeah, I've got several of those. It's really good. It's really good. Um hello. I'm an avid listener, and your podcast has completely changed me for the better, the way I'm recovering from and living with anxiety. Could you consider an episode on emetophobia? I have severe emetophobia and nausea is my most debilitating anxious symptom. The two combined are very challenging to overcome and willfully tolerate. Thanks for all you are doing. I'm just going to quickly answer that. Um, I think did you do an episode? I did an episode of the panic pod on on emetophobia with Kimberly Quinlan. All your answers are there. It's one of the best ones. You can go listen to that there. We could do another one on emetophobia, but I mean, when you've got Kim Quinlan on, uh, that's there. And try not to make emetophobia, as Drew says, special.

SPEAKER_02 32:44

Yeah. Um, I've done two episodes on the Anxious Truth. You can just go search my website, theanxioustruth.com, for emetophobia. You'll find them. My biggest thing with emetophobia in our community is exactly that. Emetophobics are the most stubborn of all the people. And I'm not picking on them, but people who have emetophobia will often say, Well, I really want to get better, which I get, and we want you to get better. But I also want to defend the assertion that no, no, no, no, this is in fact the worst possible thing that could happen to a human being in the recorded history of mankind on planet Earth. So let's start from there and then help me get better. But you can't reconcile those two things.

SPEAKER_03 33:20

I I've had emetophobia yet. Uh, to be honest, short answer um, is just that got better when I was like willing to like accepting actually, you know, I I could be. Also, I was given um I actually got food poisoning once, and that just kind of helped. Oh, sure. It's like this wasn't as scary as I as I thought it was, it was the anticipatory anxiety. Yeah, metaphobia is anticipatory anxiety um combined with um obsessive and compulsive um behaviors, yeah. Uh yeah, because like how you imagine it will be is the anxiety can suggest to you it's gonna be the worst. And it's not, and it never is. Yeah, it's not it's not nice, but it's not the worst thing you've ever experienced. And yeah, it's a weird one. It's a weird one.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

It's a tough one. And I also think I'll add this. Sometimes if you're emetophobic and you are hearing like float and accept and do exposures and do scary things, but your your main problem is that when you get anxious, you get nauseous because many, many people do. You could have yourself on a merry-go-round of like exposure tortures that go nowhere. That can happen. So if you are emetophobic, sometimes it's difficult if your anxiety physically manifests as nausea or GI issues to force yourself into continually trying to do exposures to get better if you're not also addressing the emetophobia. I've just seen it too many times to not say that. So be nice to yourself. Don't demand that you get better if you're an anxious, nauseous person and also an emenophobe. You gotta deal with that stuff.

unknown 34:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

And no, we will do an episode on emetophobia. Thank you for that question. I think we will. And we'll get uh because it's got actually got a couple of layers to it, which is good. Uh I've got more questions, or do you have you got a question? I don't have any questions, I have another did it anyway. You had the fun job of going through the did it. I had the fun job of the did it anyways. Your questions are very fun, but uh I I I just like pressing the the audio thing and hearing the voices come through. Uh hello, Josh, Josh and Drew. Thanks for the great work. I have a question about motivation. I've been stuck inside for a few years now. I've had lots of therapy, I know what I need to do to get better, I just have no motivation to do it. Every day I plan something to do, an exposure, but I never end up doing it. I've written myself a letter explaining why I want to get out, for example, family, friends, and life, etc. I start with the right intentions, but I never follow through. I feel like I'm frozen in a in an action. Do you have any tips? Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Well, motivation is is a tough one. Sometimes I always try and say motivation is often misunderstood because we feel like we have to feel motivated before we act, and that's literally not true. So sometimes it's just the the uh a little bit of a self-compassion that says, okay, I don't feel like doing these things, but that's okay that I don't feel like it. I haven't created the right mental state or emotional state to go do the exposure that I really want to do. So I can't, I shouldn't, I won't do the exposure. Give yourself a little bit of leeway. I mean, really, this willful tolerance, surrender, acceptance, exposures, those are things we do that we don't want to do. So it's okay to not feel motivated. The first thing I would say is don't beat yourself up because you can't feel motivated. A lot of research shows that the feeling of motivation is actually an artifact. It comes after the action, it doesn't come before. Yeah. So it does so much of this is like you got to get over that first hurdle, which is like a force of will kind of thing. You do it when you're not motivated, and then you might start to have feelings of motivation when you start to have those positive experiences that add up. But be nice to yourself. You're not failing because you don't feel motivated. That's the first thing I would say.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

Yeah. And also I'd frame it as in like, okay, if you don't really feel like motivating doing this for yourself, do it for future you. Sure. Because your future you will really like it. And maybe see it. Sometimes it's like it can feel like a chore. Well, this is just one of my chores that I've got to do today. I'm sure you do things every day that you don't really want to do, and maybe just fit that in somewhere. Um, I'd also start small and achievable. This is why we have exposure ladders. I think some people think exposures are right, I've got to jump out of a plane immediately. Or actually, I don't really want to do that today. Whereas start small, go halfway to what you wanted to do, build up a little bit at a time and reap the reward. Start to see, ah, actually, no, I am more capable than I think. And as Drew said, I think you'll find the motivation will follow. Oh, sure. Oh, oh, this feeling is quite nice. I quite like watching my world expand a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 37:53

I always like to tell people also that scale it back is great advice. That's that's great advice right there. Sometimes you're just overshooting, and that's okay to start super small. I know people that literally started by like showering with the door open with the door closed in the bathroom. You would think, wow, that seems tiny. And they were struggling to go and drive to the supermarket, but they had to start there, and that got the ball rolling. And I think the other thing would be recognizing that your brain is conditioned right now to scream at you to not do those things. There's going to be, there is going to be resistance. That's okay. It's okay that there's resistance.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

Yeah, yeah. You don't really wake up going, yeah, I fancy doing something scary today. You don't know. But there's a but the more you do it, that part of your brain will go, actually, there's some bit about this that I know it's worth it. Yeah. And the rewards are worth it.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

If you can't connect to the connect the to the feeling that you had when you wrote that email to us, like the feeling of, well, I decided to not do it. I wanted to do it, and I didn't do it. How do you feel after you don't do it? Immediately a sense of relief, probably, because you bailed on a scary thing, scary thing, that's okay. But then how did you feel at the end of the day? Another day I didn't do it. Connect to that. That can be a way to inform. No, I don't want to feel like this tomorrow night. So I'm going to choose the scary feeling tomorrow morning as opposed to the disappointed and defeated feeling tomorrow night. Try that. Never know. Should we do another do-it-anyway real quick? It's a nice, cheery way to end the episode. Here we go. This is a good one too. You're going to love it. Ready?

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Hey guys, I wanted to share a did it anyway moment with you that's kind of a culmination of many months and years of doing small things. The other night I found myself without any responsibilities after work, and my wife was getting ready to leave for a meeting, and she's like, Why don't you just go to the gym instead of working out at home tonight? And I said, You know what? That's a great idea. Why don't I just do that? So I got in the car and I went to the gym and I did my workout, and it was absolutely amazing, and I felt amazing, and I left the gym. And you know what I didn't do? I didn't check my pulse while I was there. I didn't make sure I had on an Apple Watch. I didn't look for the AED machines. I didn't check anything about my body and weird feelings or any of those kind of things. I just went to the gym like a normal person, and it was absolutely amazing to do, and I had to reflect on it as I was leaving, not because of the moment of doing it, but because of all the small victories that I've had over the last year of taking myself where I couldn't walk out of the house and around the block necessarily without freaking out that I was having a heart attack. There is hope. Continue the process, continue following and listening to what these guys are saying. There is hope. You can get over this stuff. You can get to a point where you're having a very healthy relationship with your anxiety, like a normal person. So just keep working the process and getting after it. Much love and respect to all of you.

SPEAKER_02 40:54

Excellent. Well there's so many good points in that one. I love how he pointed out a year. It's been a he's worked hard for a year to get himself to the gym.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

You can see it now. Once you see it, you could see the little door, like, oh, yeah, this isn't forever. I see it now. Yeah, you can do that. Um, and yeah, I love that. Just went to the just went to the gym. Did what non-anxious him would do.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Not looking for the AEDs, the automatic defibrillator.

SPEAKER_03 41:21

I used to do it. I forgot. I forgot. Yeah, just in case. And then worrying if anyone was around who's qualified to handle them.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

I hate that the gym that I used to get, that gym has closed since, but the gym that I went to for many years, I would do that. This is a terrible thing for me to admit, because it's not nice. But when I walked in the door in those early days of pushing myself back into the gym and being terrified that I might have a heart attack in the gym, was I'd look at who was working the front desk and silently judge them to see if they looked competent enough to revive me. How horrible is that? But my anxious brain was so nervous that it I would do that and I would be like, no, stop. Don't that's not fair to that person. You know, and I wouldn't want to do exercises that were too far away from the AEDs on the wall. And I got it. When he said that, it was a big smile on my face.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Oh, I'll tell you what, we can do an episode on gym anxiety soon because it's a big one that comes up. Oh boy. Yeah, there's a lot. Also, there's like the there's no mystery behind our ripped, bulging abs and oiled Greek god bodies. So if you want some uh if you want some advice on that, get up at 4 a.m., have a nice bath, go to the gym, 5,000 burpees, read stoicism, do 30,000 things, make money, you get the absolute nonsense.

SPEAKER_02 42:35

And heaven forbid you eat anything but a chicken breast or a sweet potato, you're doomed. I was that guy for a while.

SPEAKER_03 42:41

I once ate a whole camembert in bed. In bed is I don't recommend doing that, and I didn't feel great. But there we go. That's my response.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Thanks for tuning in, guys. Very good, guys. We'll see you next time. Thanks for all that did it anyways and the questions. Head over to disorder.fm if you want to ask us questions or share with the community and let us know if you want us to use your name or not. We respect everybody's privacy, but we love listening and reading to all of them. See you later.