Processing ... Or Anxious Thinking? (Episode 119)

SPEAKER_02 0:02

You gotta process processing emotions, you gotta process this, you gotta stop and process, you gotta go to therapy to process this. But sometimes processing isn't processing in our context.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

I've noticed when a shocking event happens, but in the days following it, I'll play this event and all the conversations surrounding the event just on a loop in my brain over and over and over again. I can't seem to get out of playing it on a loop.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

You don't want to repress and ignore, because that wouldn't be processing, but also sitting there and going over and over and over something in your head, you know, is that processing?

SPEAKER_00 0:33

I used to think this was like a way of processing something that's happened that can be like a shocking or traumatic event, but now I'm starting to think it's just maybe an OCD cycle when my mind's getting stuck on a loop.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

What am I trying to accomplish when I loop through this again and again and again and again? Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 119 of the podcast entitled Am I Processing or Am I Just Thinking Anxiously? I'm Drew Linsolata, one of the co-hosts of Disordered. I am a therapist practicing in New York in the area of anxiety and anxiety disorders, former sufferer of the very problems we talk about in this podcast for many years of my life on and off, but better now, three-time author on the topic, podcaster, social media dude, guy with a couple of expensive mics, and I'm proud to be here today with my esteemed co-host.

SPEAKER_01 1:21

Hi everyone, I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist and author based in Manchester in the UK. Specialize in anxiety and anxiety disorders, blending personal experience with professional insights. And I really enjoy co-hosting this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Blending, that's really good. I'm gonna start using that. We are blending, aren't we? So processing, I think, is a really great word for us to start with because we hear it all the time, like in therapy circles and mental health, like got to process processing emotions, got to process this, got to stop and process, gotta go to therapy to process this. But sometimes processing isn't processing in our context. This was prompted by a question from a listener. So what do you think? Should we play it now? Yeah, let's do it. All right, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 2:05

Hi, Josh and Dick Drew. Thank you so much for your podcast. I absolutely love it, and it's helped me so much in my anxiety um disorder recovery. I wanted to ask you a question about OCD. Um, since listening to your podcast, I've realized that I think I do suffer with OCD. And um I've noticed when a shocking event happens, like for instance, the other day I watched um really sadly my neighbour's house caught on fire. Um, and it was quite a big sort of shocking event. But then um I've noticed in the days following it, I'll play this event um and all the conversations surrounding the event just on a loop in my brain over and over and over again. I can't seem to get out of uh playing it on a loop. Um, I used to think this was like a way of processing something that's happened that can be like a shocking or traumatic event, but now I'm starting to think it's just maybe an OCD cycle where my mind's getting stuck on a loop. Um, any insight to this would be great. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

What a great question. What do you think? Really good question. Um, yeah, and I I also enjoyed the um the self-awareness of the question as well. So already there, you're not, you know, you're starting from a good place. I'm noticing that maybe this could be an OCD thing, maybe I'm ruminating about it, and the rational brain is is coming to the surface there because often when we're triggered, when we're in an OCD cycle, when we're anxious, um rational brain becomes very quiet. Um, so I could hear that already in the question. I am noticing that hold on, this was a few days ago, and I'm I'm in a loop. And that's fantastic that you can notice that. So I just wanted to comment on that first of all. I think that's already really good. Uh and yeah, it's a loop that we can all get um sucked into. Uh if you struggle with pure O, which is OCD, but it's all in your mind, you know, so you uh biggest compulsions, you know, ruminating, playing out catastrophes, uh repeating words, uh doing anything basically that that we repeat in the mind as a way to sate the a feeling or or come to some kind of a hundred percent certainty. Or if we misbelieve that by by thinking we are protecting ourselves and loved ones, loved ones, which as if you're a listener of this podcast know that actually often isn't true. Um where do we go? What what's processing? So you you're you're you've observed your neighbour's house, you know, catch fire. That is a scary thing, and it and it kind of I think anyone, OCD or not, would be like, Well, that's quite unnerving, you know. Um and you would probably be naturally a bit more cautious, you know, when you see it right literally on your doorstep. But where's the light? When do we know where do we know where an anxiety disorder is kicked in? Or in metacognitive therapy they call it the cast, you know, and things like that, or when do we know compulsive rumination's kicked in?

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Processing really is a thing. That's not that's not not a thing.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

It's it's it's a very good question, isn't it? Because you don't want to repress and ignore, because that wouldn't be processing, but also sitting there and going over and over and over something in your head, yeah is that processing? Interesting. Over to you, Drew.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Yeah, that it's this is a tough one because, like, well, you know, so Dan uh I don't remember if we could use her name or not, so I won't. But like this person is wondering, like, wait, if I used to think this was just me processing, but is this maybe an OCD thing? Well, we we can't know, two guys with microphones and a podcast can't tell you if you have OCD or not. But I think one of the things might be is it leading somewhere or not? Because when we process things, like I'm kind of a fan of narrative therapy. The the principles of narrative therapy are really great. Like when something difficult to handle happens, even if it's a negative thing, even the most negative things, and like even when we're dealing with like PTSD and that sort of stuff, there's always an element of like retelling and retelling and building a narrative. And even though it's a bad chapter in your life, it still has to become like written into the book of you. Like that has to become a a thing. You find some meaning in it or you you build it into your narrative in some way, even if it's unpleasant, and then you move on. It always stays with you. It's a bad memory, of course. So that's what we're kind of looking for. We process things, we find whatever meaning we can find in it, good or bad, like positive or negative, like I wish this didn't happen, or that was a great memory, whatever. And then we sort of put it to bed and it comes with us as a memory, not something that has to forcibly like push its way to the front all the time. So are you heading in that direction with this, or is or is it not? And maybe you don't know that. It's you know, am I looking for some change in my feeling right now? What am I trying to accomplish when I loop through this again and again and again and again? Really hard. It would take us a while to probably tease that out in therapy a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Of course. I mean, you know me, I love working with OCD and things, and what um what I've heard in that question is something is very common. And I always take a mechanistic approach to OCD. And it's also very it's always very common when something like a big event happens as well, in particular, people with Pure Row, whether it's a news event, something happening, global news event, or something happening on your own street, when something quite shocking occurs and you add that onto life stresses and there's other things going on, but it's obviously quite a lot to take in sometimes. What can happen there is that that kind of thought and experience can end up I don't really like to use the word latching, but you know, hanging around. It starts to hang around right in the in the hippocampus or wherever in your thinking, and it doesn't want to get filed away quickly. And that's where we you can get an OCD trigger. Some people it's a word that happens, some people it's an image, a memory. It doesn't matter. And in this case, if we were to look at it as OCD, uh to reiterate what Drew said, you know, not diagnosing, but if I was to look at this situation as OCD, the first thing you gotta do is one, observe, hold on, I've been playing this on loop for three days now. Yes, one I acknowledge that that was a big thing, you know, my uh and I hope your neighbour's okay, and things like that, or wherever the event is, whoever's listening, if you can relate to this, I just keep playing it over and over again in my head. Then you gotta, whilst you've taken a step back, realize hold on. Yes, that shook me up, and it was you know, it it had an emotional impact, but what's the mechanism I'm doing here? When we processed, it requires reflecting and seeing things from multiple points of view, whether it's you can process grief, you can process trauma, you can process falling out with someone, and you often requires you to look at things from different points of view. My point of view, their point of view, top-down point of view. I look at it through a point of view when I'm sad, I look at it point from a point of view when I'm happy, and you're having this different points of view. Whereas OCD thinking will only have it from one point of view, and this is where you've got to be clever. Uh, and this is something I do. There's just one point of view playing this scenario over and over again in your head, and that point of view is anxiety, and I am looking for either one certainty or two satiation, yeah. Or a feeling of safety of some kind. Feeling of safety, yeah. I feel sated, I feel content, and there's that illusion. And when you feel like you are chasing, so oh, if I keep playing this in my head, playing this in my head, if you feel like you are chasing a feeling to avoid this one, then you know it's that OCD ruminative compulsion, and it is an illusion, illusion. It's a bit like that running through the desert on that. There's an oasis. If I just keep running towards it, I'll get to the oasis. But the mirage always stays a hundred feet in front of you. That's exactly what happens there. So observe it and be like, hold on. I'm in the anxiety mechanism here, I'm on the hamster wheel, I always got the hamster wheel. Now it's okay to leave this alone. Then when the threat response calms down, it opens up opportunity to see it through other perspectives and not rumination. I know that was long-winded, but I hope that made sense.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

No, it makes a lot of sense. I love that you use the word chasing. That's really good. That's very it actually feels really accurate. Like if I'm chasing something, because when you're processing something, you're not really chasing anything. You're just kind of experiencing sadness or shock or you know, despair, or a high degree of empathy for your friend that maybe lost their house or whatever, like those things come through. Whereas with you're right, with when it's OCD or even GAD, this is like a GAD thing too. It doesn't have to be just OCD. It seems like the right thing to do when encountered when you encounter something that I can't control or can't explain and can't be sure won't happen to me, or whatever the threat might be, the way it's perceived, it makes sense to latch onto it and just keep thinking about it again and again and again and again. Like that will protect me, won't it, in in some way. But it doesn't. And so Gad does that too. Like this is a very important thing. So we need to think actively, ruminate, and worry about this. That's the right thing to do, until I discover that it's not. So that insight where you discover, like, no, no, no, I this doesn't feel right, was great. This person, like you said, has that insight. But the chasing, I think, was really great. Are you chasing a feeling or trying to get away from a particular feeling? What is it? What am I what am I experiencing? What do I think about this event that happened to me? Well, it's so shocking, like it could happen to anybody. Yeah, that's true. And sometimes we have to process that, like, yeah, life is uncertain and dangerous sometimes, and that's really makes me feel a certain way. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Yeah. Yeah. It's a misuse of your doing mode. Ah, very good. You know, when you're when you're when you're anxious, your brain wants you to do something, and sometimes that doing is just thinking. Uh going back to the topic at hand, process processing or processing. Processing. Use the queen Queen's English. Um when you're processing um emotions, processing often looks like having the feeling and doing nothing. So if you're sitting there and you're replaying this the house fire from across the road, but you're doing. Oh, well, I'm sitting here with the feeling, but are you? No, it you're doing. You're doing a oh, I play this out, I keep playing it through, playing it through, playing it through. Maybe I'm looking for something for a lot of people with those with those C D they don't know why it's playing through. They just it just seems important to to watch. Right. You know, um, and then acknowledge I'm not actually processing, processing here because I'm sitting and I'm not actually sitting with the feeling. The distraction is to play through it over and over again. Whereas if I let it be there, but observe how it makes me feel, i.e., anxious and do something, that's the processing sometimes. And that's what we don't look at when we look at ERP exposure response prevention. Okay, I'm exposing myself to the feeling, but what's my response here? Yeah, to think, to solve, to replay, to observe the hamster wheel. And that's what I would argue uh processing is in this situation.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

I agree. Processing processing. So when we process our process, we are playing. Yeah, we're playing through the event again or whatever the conversation. It doesn't have to be something like this, it could be anything. When we process something like that, while I'm playing through it to feel the things that I feel, even if you're not intentionally doing that, that's kind of how we operate. Like, well, that I'm so I'm so upset that I can't believe he said that to me is a thing that you might loop back and forth, like, okay, well, I I'm playing through it and it triggers this feeling, and I just have to have that feeling. And when I when I have that feeling and it dissipates a couple of times and like I I experienced it, well, now I've processed it. That's kind of in a very loose whereas there never is an end to it when it's when it's GAD or OCD or anxious type thinking. There's no end. Like, no, I'm never done I'm never done processing this. I think another thing would be if the loop continues to play again and again and again, only until something else becomes a little bit more important and it becomes the loop, there's another good indication that, like, oh, there was never a point to that at all. Yeah, you're just constantly. Oh, it goes and just usually it's replaced. It's replaced. That's exactly right. So like it's funny, I'll often say to like even my therapy clients, like, can you see how your anxious mind is just hunting for something to ritualize or it's it's hunting for a problem to solve? It doesn't matter what the problem is. So they'll say often like, well, I don't understand. I would I was so stuck on this six months ago. I'm like, I know look at the process, not the content. So if your processing never ends until something else takes its place, it's probably not processing in the traditional sense of the word.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

I didn't and we'd invite the question sender in it to be like, I'm we're gonna guess that this isn't the first process thing. Uh uh, and and you alluded that as well as to that as well when you said, I'm thinking, I'm starting to think that I might have OCD. So that just what we've inferred from that is that this is probably the process that's happened over and over again. Uh uh, we'll continue talking about this, but I would like a community win.

SPEAKER_02 15:43

Yeah, we could do one of those. We have a really good one, so let's play that one now. Here we go.

SPEAKER_05 15:49

Hi, Josh and Drew. This is Sarah from Pennsylvania, and you are welcome to use my name. I have a dental did it anyway for you. Today was my one of my annual uh dental appointments, and anxiety seems to really hold on to my dental appointments and make them not great experiences. And so for the past year I've been working with a cognitive behavioral therapist on anxiety in general, and I've also been working on the dental anxiety as well. So I went, I did it anyway, uh, and I it went great. It went better than the last several years worth of dental appointments have. And I'm really proud of myself for it, and I'm giving myself all the credit, and I was able to squash Craig the Critic when he came in this morning, making me think that I wouldn't be able to do this. Thank you so much for your podcast and what you both do. I have been listening to it since last year as well. I'm up to episode 72, and I can't wait for what I continue to learn. So, this did it anyway, is also for all of the people who have dental anxiety as well. There is help for you too, because there was help for me.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Thank you, Sarah, for sharing that. It's really great.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

It was lovely and wholesome, wasn't it? Well done. Yeah, that's that's brilliant. Yeah, I've I've had a dental phobia up until last year. And um, so yeah, I'm part of that that crew as well. Uh, I don't I don't fear the dentist anymore. Uh thanks to some a lot of exposure therapy within a week.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

You had no choice, right? How to get a lot of dental work done. By the way, if you're if if you're a dentist, an orthodontist, an oral surgeon, a dental hygienist listening to disordered, we're sorry. Because you guys are like public enemy number one in this community. And I think it's only because people have to just sit in your chair for some extended period of time, and we think we can't handle that. But like the dentists get a bed rap in this in this like community of ours or whatever you want to call it. They mean well.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

They're only trying to help. My dentist told me off because I said, All right, are you gonna rip my tooth out? And she's like, We don't call it ripping, it's an extraction. Just don't degrade my profession. I was like, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Fair enough. Like, I can appreciate that. Hey, no, I don't do any ripping, it's not the ripping room. Like, it's really great. I I love that you uh Sarah even recognized Craig the Critic. Like, she she took out Craig the Critic with like one left cross, and boom, Craig was out. Like, I I didn't love it. Yeah, recognizing when I what he wanted me to like not take the credit, but nope, I'm taking it, man. I did a hard thing. Good job.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

That's interesting, Craig the Critic, as well, though, because when we return to the topic talking about processing, um be wary of what Craig the Critic might say because he might be like, No, you need to process this now. Why are you getting on with life and engaging with your values and doing what not anxious you would do when you should be processing this? What does that mean? You know, you process it in your own time. Processing does not mean stop everything to go and do something. It kind of feeds into the last episode. Yeah. You know, and like sometimes people can can conflate what processing means with self-development or whatnot. You know, whereas actually sometimes processing just happens in windows throughout your day as you try to look after yourself and live your life.

SPEAKER_02 19:07

I think you can't force it either. Like, oh no, now I need I will now sit down with my cup of my picturesque cup of tea in my well-lit window and process, process. Like that that's doesn't happen that way. Like this is just a thing that happens organically. Like feelings come up when they want to come up. You don't get to decide when they're gonna have them. You can't make them, you can't manufacture them. So you're right. Craig the critic will latch on to that the narrative that we have that we're immersed in every day in the environment we're in that says, no, no, processing your feelings, that's correct. That's what evolved people who do the work do. Like that's an achievement. You must often people that listen to disordered will also think that, like, but if I don't do that, aren't I avoiding? No, no, no, no. In this context, it's backwards. We've talked about this. You're not avoiding if you back away from air quotes processing. The processing is the avoidance when it's not processing. If you're just continually looping through again and again and again to try to find a fit, you're literally trying to avoid the bad feeling that triggers the the looping. So no, no, no, you're not avoiding your problems. I probably I promise. So that's not a thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

And you can't do it on demand, which is one of the narratives that weaves through the entire community. Yeah, like I I'll give an example for my personal life. Yeah, uh, often on um sad anniversaries, uh, where there's grief, I'll wake up and I'll sit with feelings and think about the person, people I miss, and nothing comes up. But I always know it does. It comes up in the day, but sometimes I wake up and I have a cup of coffee and I'm like, There's nothing there. You know, carry on, and then sometimes sometimes I feel it in the day, but then I'm gonna have to work or do something, so then I do put it down. I was like, okay, you're there, but I don't really want to face that now because I've got other things that I need to do. And then when I finish work and things, I remember this particular story. I was in a I was in a shop called Super Drug, which is like a pharmacy cosmetic beauty shop for if you've never heard of it. And um, I was walking around and there was this song on the radio, and I was just picking out the mouthwash and whatnot, and I just suddenly started crying, and I was like, ah, I didn't push away, I was like, well, I'll finish work now, who cares? I don't really care what people think. Um and there it was. I just had to that was me processing the emotion. I it didn't come on demand in the morning. It would have been wonderful if I could get it over and done with and could then crack on with my day, but it doesn't work like that. It just came up and I wasn't even actively thinking about it. I just heard something and it tapped into an emotion that allowed me to feel it. But it that happened because I was getting on with my life, I wasn't repressing it. Yes, I parked it aside when I was at work, you know, because trying to get get The right balance, but yeah, that was me processing it, you know, and um sometimes processing importantly is just talking about it as well. So, like if something mad happened, like my friend was in a car accident the other day, he's fine, thankfully, okay. But he came sat down with with his mates, and he was like, Whoa, just in this car accident, you know, he's he came from this side and we smashed and our heart was racing and all that, and you know, I couldn't sleep. And I was like, that's him processing it. Yeah, he's talking about it, he's using these things, you know. Uh and he's like, Well, all right, whoa, that sounds scary. That's it's not a doing thing. You didn't have to go and sit in the corner, you know, click on his processing switch, and then you know defrag his hard drive. Do you remember when you had to do that? Wow, that's old. Defrag.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Yeah I'm I'm getting old now, man. Yeah. I would just like to point out the the unfairness. If there is a, I'm I'm gonna say it, like if somebody is walking through super drug and there's a woman standing by herself crying in the mouthwash aisle, we would might assume, oh, something, can I help this person? When the person crying over the mouthwash is six foot two or whatever you are, partially bearded, looking a little grizzled, and he's crying alone over the mouthwash, we consider doctors.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

So did you say chiseled called? I was looking very chiseled.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

There's this, you know, the so a dude standing by himself crying over the mouthwash tends to be a little bit more like, should I call the authorities? Are we safe? So I just it's it's a different way of calling it.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Oh, very good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And someone did actually ask, Am I all right? And I just said, Yeah, I'm right. Just lovely. It's a sad day. It's all good.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Yeah, yeah, very good. Yeah. Um one of the things I think is interesting too about the question that this person sent in is when she said, Well, I used to just I I thought I was just processing this or processing this. I am amazed at the number of people, whether it's listeners of our podcast or whatever, social media community or therapy clients, who never knew, because we can never know what another person's experience is, right? This is a universal truth. You can never fully know what another person is experiencing. I can't tell you the number of people, I was shocked by this when I started getting to this, that said, I just thought that's what's normal. I didn't understand that I had an anxiety disorder. I didn't know I was an anxious person. I had no idea at O CD. For all I know, everybody thought these things. Everybody did this, right? So it's only until you are introduced to some sort of outside influence, whether it's a psychoeducational resource like disordered or your friends, and you notice, like, wait, I'm acting different than they do. It is so often interpreted as just a normal, this isn't this just normal. This is how people are, right? No, it's kind of not. So I am always blown away by that, and I wanted to point out because she was smart enough to even say that. I just thought this was my normal, this was normal, right? This is what you do. No, not necessarily. Yeah. So it's really interesting how sneaky it could be. Very sneaky.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Yeah. As we're talking, actually, my brain's well about obviously as a psychotherapist, you know, you you look at what you see a lot of things, see a lot of things like psychological projection and emotional projection. Sometimes they can't that can be a sign of things that aren't processed, you know. Like I've not processed the fact that my parents are horrible to me. I've not processed the fact that you know my husband or my wife left me. I've not processed that. And sometimes it's obvious. So sometimes you can see something else that taps into a feeling that you have, like vulnerability, you know, or making you feel isolated or humiliated. There's something I often hear a lot, and then when the feeling of humiliation we project onto other things, whether it's observing someone else, things like that, that can be a sign of unprocessed things. But and then going harking back to what I said before, this is where therapy or talking to a trusted loved one and things like that is part of that. Even just questioning that is part of that. The question sender in a going, I'm noticing this, that's processing.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

You can have OCD and also have to process emotional things in your life. Like, of course, everybody does. No one just has OCD and then all of the other stuff doesn't matter. Like, so more than one thing is always true at a time. So is this processing or is it OCD? Don't really know. Like, can't really tell you in a podcast episode, but it's an excellent question, and one I think everybody should probably reflect on a little bit. Like, if it seems like it's a thing I must do right now, there's a really good chance that it's just anxious thinking. It's CAD, it's OCD, it's part of your anxiety problem. Because nobody really ever you ever get to the point where it's like, well, this thing is really bothering me. This thing that happened is bothering or keeps showing up in my relationships, or I keep self-sabotaging. Yeah, all those traditional principles really do apply, even for people with anxiety disorders. But that's not an urgent thing. It's never like I need to stop everything right now and process this emotion because I just lost my third job and I keep I keep screwing up. Like you might recognize there must be something's going on. Why do I keep making the same mistake? But it's not urgent, it's important, but not urgent. If the need to think through the loop feels urgent or immediate, that's another really good hint that it might be an anxiety thing.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

Being with the feeling without fixing. That I would argue that's that's processing. In the end, that is what it is. That's correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was it's really interesting. I asked my friend for permission to share this, but he uh you know, he'd been drinking of it too much recently. And I was like, Oh, what are you doing tonight? You know, going to the music gig. And he said, No, I'm gonna sit in and just be with feelings for a bit. And I was like, Yeah, I love you, man. That's cool. Yeah, I'm just gonna sit in and I've been avoiding my feelings and I'm just gonna sit and be with them for a bit.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Yeah, I had a friend of mine that used to make appointments with himself to do that. I remember the day he was like, Yeah, yeah, no, tonight I I just lie in my bed and be miserable for two hours. Like he set aside time to just feel his feelings. That was really great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

That's outstanding. And I'd say that's pro that I'd say that's processing.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Yeah, sure. Like I'm I'm really this is I'm sad right now, so I'm just gonna go home and feel sad tonight. All right, cool. Like, good job. Like, that's a extra healthy thing to do. So good question in the end.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

I should do that. Schedule crying in the shower.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Or it's super drug. Can you schedule that? Like every Thursday, you'll find me in the mouthwash aisle just in tears. But it's okay. I mean it's I'm taking care of self-care, hashtag self-care.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

So if you need me, I'll be in the bookstore. Making a giant four out of Mel Robin's books.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

A book fork, just inside my book for it at Barnes and Noble Crying. So that's great. Great question, though. I appreciate the you know the person sending it in and like sparking an entire discussion.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

It's a it's a big topic, and we do it's a nice opener there to just talk about it. Um but you let's hear some more from the community, shall we?

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Yeah, you have any written did it anyways or questions, or should we go right to our second audio one, which is a banger, by the way. It's really good.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Um let's do the audio while I fetch the there is a good written one as well.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

All right, let's do it. Here we go.

SPEAKER_04 29:15

Hi, Drew and Josh. Um, I wanted to share a I did it anyway. My name is Alex. You can use my name. So uh this past weekend my husband went away to New York City uh for a bike festival type of thing. Um, I get very anxious when he travels that far and when I'm home for that long with my daughter. Um, I also had a birthday party to go to that same day uh that was being held at my mom's, so definitely got hit with a double whummy. Um I did make the drive 45 minutes away with my daughter. I got there late, and when I got there, I did have a panic attack um literally as soon as I walked through the door, which sent me straight to the toilet. Um, I felt embarrassed. I felt um, you know, the waves of anxiety coming over me, but I was able to just kind of sit, um, let the feelings be there, sit with it. Um I did engage in some conversation to kind of just get myself more involved with right then and there and what was happening right where I was at to get my mind from wandering off and ended up being a really good time. Uh we stayed for like two hours. I got to see my mom, which haven't really been able to go visit her as often. And then I got home late. My husband still wasn't home. Uh he ended up being gone for a total of uh 12, 13 hours. Um, but I was able to do it and it gave me confidence to know that you know I can get through this. So thank you guys for everything that you do.

SPEAKER_01 30:56

Oh superb. That's uh amazing, well done. And um uh yeah, I love that. And uh I like how you were just getting on with what non-anxious you would do, you know, and come back home and oh, husband's still not here. And look, so you got all the credit. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

We could have played like the whole soundboard to that one. That was a great one, Alex. We had she just kept going, so it was But I'm not done yet. Billy Mays was there. She had a panic attack, but like it was just she just kept going. It was really great.

SPEAKER_01 31:28

You've been so desperate to play that the rock. You know what I discovered that we still have, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

We still have this one that we never play. Judge Dredd. We gotta get Judge Dredd in again somehow. But uh very well done, man. This is exactly what I'm gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

You're definitely the lore in that one.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah, yeah, 100%, right? So that's what it looks like. You know, for people who always say, but I don't understand what does it look like? It looks just like this and did it anyway. Like I went, I had a panic attack, I I, you know, retreated a little bit, but that's okay. And then I came back out and then I refocused on what was really important to me, and I and I went at it. It was really great. That's what it looks like.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Oh, I've got another one uh to read out. Do you want to hear that? Yeah, 100% I do. Of course I do. Okay, this is from Jade. Hi, Josh and Drew, Jade here. You can use my name. I just wanted to share my did it anyway. I've had anxiety and panic disorder since I was 15. I'm now 33, with many years living in relative okayness. This bout of anxiety came out of nowhere and has turned into agrophobia and panic attacks daily. I stumbled on your podcast, and this is the first time I was able to put a name to derealization, which this massively helped. Today, just now in fact, I was able to work through my panic attack by just letting it do its thing and carrying on doing what I was doing. Usually I would run to my safe space and pace and let the fear consume me. I broke down in tears after I just did that. I just did that and I was able to give myself all the credit. And she put it in capital letters as well to emphasize um the enthusiasm. I also haven't checked my heart rate in two days. Small progress, but I'm taking the win. Thank you for all that you do. You've really helped me through a challenging time in my life. Oh, that was outstanding.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

I love the like noticing, like, oh my goodness, I just did that. That's such a great moment for people. I did that.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Also, I'd argue that's processing. Oh, and now I'm and now I now I'm I'm tearful because I allowed all the feelings. I allowed all the feelings and did what non-anxious me would do and learn into uncertainty and practiced willful tolerance. I'd argue that's processing.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

I think you're right. Because there's the feelings that you have to just have in the moment during the panic attack, and then there's feelings about having had a panic attack, which are real feelings. We don't pretend that those don't exist. So, like all of that emotion came flooding out afterwards, like, oh my goodness, I just did that. And they were maybe tears of joy, possibly a relief, or who knows. So, like all the things, I let myself feel all the things. Like, Jade, that was spectacular. Very, very, very well done.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

But you know, excellent new, which you continue progress.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

I think it illustrates there's two things I would I would add to that. If you're listening to this, essentially what Jade wound up doing was she said, well, I just let her, I just let it play itself out. I didn't do take any action to control it or stop it or make it go away. And lo and behold, it did in fact go away. So what you're left with is two possible conclusions. One, that was awful, and I must never let that happen again. Or two, which is the one we really want, I am left with no other conclusion I can draw from this other than if I if I leave it alone, I wind up okay anyway. That's the one you're looking for. Be careful of the like, I only want to tell the story of it because Jake could have sent in like I had a horrible panic attack and it was so awful, and it's like scarring me, and I and I never can. What am I well? Any tips for that? So we got we're looking for the sh the shift from that first one to the second one. I have no other conclusion to draw, then I can handle that the next time. Outstanding.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

And the other lovely note.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Yeah, to end it with. By the way, and the other people who will listen to that and say, but how? Well, now we run into we run out of instructions, right? So how did Jay do that? She probably wouldn't be able to tell you. At some point, she took a deep breath and said, I guess I'm gonna do this, and she did it.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Well, she did. She said, I just got on with what this is why I always say doing what non-anxious you would do. Yeah, which is perfect. I was gonna do what I was gonna carry on what I was usually would do. Yeah. Whilst allowing the feelings to be there.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

But the country. You know what?

SPEAKER_01 35:44

We always harp back to the 51% attention thing. If I can just 51% attention on what I'm doing, and the other 49% is permissible and allowed, yeah, watch the magic happen.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

Maybe the that's that might should be our next episode. Maybe the episode title is but how. Because you're right, that was what Jay did, and it was great. That's correct. But the people will often want to ask, but how did she do that? And the answer is she did something brave. Like in the end, there's no instructions on doing something brave. Like I felt like I wanted to run to my safe person and do all those things, but I said, no, no, this time I'm going to continue along, like non-anxious me, and and and see if I can just ride this out organically. There are no instructions for that, just a choice to make. And it is always a brave leap of faith. So let's always acknowledge that that's part of this puzzle. And that's hard to do.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

So yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 36:28

Good job. Great episode. I really enjoyed this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

If you've got any questions or did it anyways, send them over to disordered.fm. Sign up to the mailing list where you can hear about our upcoming book, The Disordered Guide to Health Anxiety, as well as the Disordered app, which will be dropping soon. Uh, thank you for tuning in, and it was always always a pleasure, Drew.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Yeah, we'll see you next week. Thanks, guys.