My Loved Ones Don't Understand My Anxiety (Episode 015)

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm surrounded by people who want to help me with my anxiety, but they just don't get it. These types of disorders are impactful not only for the person who suffers, but for the people close to them in their lives because they're very lifestyle impacting. They didn't understand. They tried to be supportive, but I could see that they don't get this.

SPEAKER_03 0:19

Yeah, if you're gonna try and empathize with a loved one who's struggling, picture them about to go into open heart surgery. Picture them about to do their driving test for the first time. Now remove all those dangers, but keep the feeling. Yeah. They're not choosing to have that feeling. And that is a strange, horrible, isolating sensation.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

If they could accept that explanation, you wouldn't be listening to this podcast now trying to figure out how to help them.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

The title of this episode is They Just Don't Get It. Something I hear quite a lot as a therapist. My name's Joshua Fletcher. I'm a psychotherapist and author specializing in the world of anxiety disorders.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

And I am Drew Linsolata, co-host of Disordered. I am a graduate student in clinical mental health counseling and a therapist in training in the United States. In New York, to be specific. Hey Josh.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

Hey, they just don't get it. Uh when I was doing my old podcast, and we've been on social media for quite a long time now, um, one of the saddest kind of questions that I uh I hear is that you know I I'm surrounded by people who want to help me with my anxiety, but they just don't get it. Now, some of them want to get it, and they want to empathize, and they want to be able to help in a certain way. And on the other end of that spectrum, some just don't, and they see anxiety as an annoyance or a weakness or whatever. Uh, and so this episode today is for anyone who wants to play this for people uh to help them get it. Um and if they want to listen, fair play to them. So if you've decided to listen to this episode um in an attempt to understand and help a loved one, then thank you. And we really appreciate that. Um, is this something you hear quite a lot, Drew, from from people?

SPEAKER_00 2:20

Quite a bit. I think we can certainly validate. And if you are listening, because you're here to support someone that you care about. Again, I will like it with Josh said. Thank you for doing a nice thing. Excuse me. Um, I I think we could certainly validate that these types of disorders are impactful not only for the person who suffers, but for the people close to them in their lives, because they're very lifestyle impacting. So the impact goes beyond just the person and for spreads to friends and family and co-workers and everything. So yeah, I I hear it odd. People just don't get it, they don't understand what I'm going through.

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Yeah. Yeah. And and and this episode's dedicated to that. Um, also, yeah, we'll do that. Um, what was it like for people around you, Drew, when when you were struggling? Did you have people who understood or um try to?

SPEAKER_00 3:05

I I did. Um, I think I think it's gonna depend on your individual personality. So the people in my life they didn't understand, which I I get. And really early on I discovered they don't have to understand this. Um, and they tried, I think, a little bit to be helpful with suggestions, but I'm even in that state, um tend to be sort of pathological about not being told what to do, even in that situation. I will admit it's a character flaw. And so they sort of backed off. But um, yeah, no, they didn't understand. They tried to be supportive, but I could see that they don't get this because they don't they're not feeling what I'm feeling, and they don't see the threat that I seem to see. So there was a big disconnect there, sure.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Yeah, and uh uh for me as well, when I was uh unwell, I'm in a good place now. So um if you're a if you're a listener, um both Drew and I are in a really good place, somewhere that's been been to the the depths of horrible anxiety. Um and I was surrounded by people who who cared and were concerned, but they they didn't really know what to do. So to in this episode today, we're just gonna talk about what you can do. Because yeah, Drew's right, it does impact people around you, um, particularly if you feel helpless. And no one wants to feel helpless. Yeah, you know, people want to feel helpful in some way, and and that's what um we we will do. Um we'll talk about what was helpful for us and what we hear a lot and what I've observed from working with people, what was helpful for you, what was helpful for you. Yeah, um, and we'll also think, but we'll start by just developing that empathy. So I'm gonna throw Drew in the deep end here. Love it. How would you describe how you felt with acute anxiety to someone who just doesn't get it?

SPEAKER_00 4:53

I will try to answer that from the point of view of not recovered me, um, because I think that's probably most valuable. I would have I used to say things like it feels like something is wrong, or or I really feel like I need some help, or I might have to go to the hospital, or can you just sit with me? Those are the things that I would say. And they they would do it, I mean, because they cared, but I could tell that they didn't understand what but understand why, like you're clearly okay. So in retrospect, as a recovered person, I would describe that differently. But those are the things that I would say when I was in the thick of it. Even though some portion of my brain understood that I was probably safe, the part that told me I wasn't was just way too loud to listen to any kind of logic. So that I would start there. That's this the afraid person does not have the ability to access logic at that point.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Yeah. For me, it was, and I think I speak for a lot of people here, is that it feels like something's wrong, and we feel terror and doom, but we can't apportion any reasoning for it. So, you know, if someone pulls a gun out and points it at you, you're gonna feel terror and doom. But what you're not getting is a secondary fear. And people who struggle with disordered anxiety, excessive anxiety, they're not only dealing with a primary fear that we all get, and everyone listening to this now can relate to a primary fear. Someone's pulled a gun on me, that's really scary. There's a car running coming towards me that's really scary. Um you know, there's there's a fire blazing that's really scary. Um, the boss wants to call me in for appraisal, that's terrifying. Um we all get that, and that is anxiety, and it is legitimate. But people with the sword anxiety, and this is what looking back, what I felt, I was getting these horrendous waves of fear and doom, with nothing for it to apportion to or to attach to, and that in itself was scary for me. And then what would happen is because I'm an intelligent person and we uh who wants to fix, we're all intelligent people that want to fix, but the human instinct was to try and fix that, and what happens is the brain almost goes in on itself, uh and so if you're struggling with anxiety at home, you may feel like your brain is broken, the feeling feels like it's broken, your rational brain can't fix it at the moment, there's nothing to fix, but we'll talk about it later. Yeah, but in general, yeah, if you're gonna try and empathize with a loved one who's struggling, picture them about to go into open heart surgery, picture them about to do their driving test for the first time. Picture them walking through a park, and you know, maybe there's some dodgy character that comes out and stuns them. Now remove all those dangers, but keep the feeling. Yeah, they're not choosing to have that feeling, and that is a strange, horrible, isolating sensation. At least when there's actual threat, you can make sense of it, and when the threat passes, the threat response passes too. Right. But people with anxiety disorders will have that very same fear level that you get on a roller coaster without being on a roller coaster, it would just kick off when you don't want it to. It's really difficult to eat food in a restaurant or go on a basic walk for some people, or having or just you know, spend time with kids when you've got all these intrusive thoughts when this horrible feeling that's kicked in. Um, and I know I've been there, it's horrible, and it does require some empathy.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

Um, and we'll talk about what you can do to help later on, you know. Uh, because that you can help, you know, and and we'll make sure that you leave this podcast with okay, there's some stuff that I can do.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

I I would I would certainly add to that, which was very accurate. I think that was really awesome. Um it's not all in their head, because I know it sounds like what Josh just said to a certain degree is oh, it's all in your head. And that that's something that I hear all the time. It's not really all in their head. I mean, technically, yes, because the feeling itself becomes the source of the threat, so we can get all meta here, but it's you can't look at it as, well, you're fine, it's all in your head. If they could accept that that explanation, you wouldn't be listening to this podcast now trying to figure out how to help them. They want to accept that explanation, and logically, they probably understand and accept that explanation. But when that fear strikes, it's every bit as real as the fear you would fear, feel if you were in a burning building or something to that effect. So it's not fear that's just in your head. You can't just go down, don't go down that road. First, start with acknowledging I know that you are legitimately terrified right now. That's a good start. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:03

Yeah. So a good thing that you could help a loved one with is it's important to know that they are dealing with a misfiring threat response. This is a part of the brain. Go on, press it, Drew. This is a part of the brain called amygdala. There it is. The amygdala. And uh, why did you take my voice down in Octave? I sound really creepy. Like um it's meant to be now. It's supposed to be scary. Okay, fair fair enough. Okay. Uh this is a part of their brain, uh, their old reptilian lizard brain, whatever you want to call it, um that that decides to misfire this threat response against their will. So, Drew, what's some of the common phrases that you hear? Like, it's like, you've got nothing to worry about.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:51

You're bringing this on yourself. Yeah, that is a big one. And and and even sometimes even friends, family, loved ones with the best of intention trying to like snap the person out of that will say things like that. You're bringing it upon yourself. It's all in your head. There's nothing wrong. But the person they know that they do understand that. I believe me, I I a hundred percent knew that, but it does not negate the fact that that part of my brain is firing on all eight cylinders as loudly as it can, and I am feeling all of the things that a terrified, threatened human is supposed to feel just inappropriately at the wrong time.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

Yeah, it's like everyone has a phobia. So if you don't have an anxiety disorder, but you have a fear of snakes or spiders.

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:36

Let's say uh it's the common house spider, it can't hurt you, but if I put that in your hand, your amygdala is going to fire off just like the loved ones.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:45

Now, what doesn't help is if you know sit next to you and go, you're overthinking it, you're being dramatic. Spiders can't hurt you. Come on, you're doing this again. It's like, well, the anxiety isn't rational. Now, you can overcome a phobia of spiders. I've certainly not, you know, because I can I can live a life not doing that. That's fine. Um, maybe I'll have a go one day, but I just don't need to um at the moment. Uh, but in general, yeah, you know, like your aim as a loved one is to help your loved one turn off a misfiring threat response. At times they don't need it. Because I almost guarantee if someone's listening to this, they'll probably get anxious in places where they don't want to be anxious, but that requires them doing hard work and brave work, but that requires them to be anxious in the place. Yeah, you know. So, you know, I did a bit of reframing today with someone, and it was like get your partner to be like every time you're anxious somewhere, like driving, to get the partner to go, good, that's that one of your homework. Yeah, practice how well, yeah, practice being anxious, you know, rather than oh, you're doing this again, you know, oh, this is affecting me. Don't get me wrong, it it can affect you, it's exhausting, you know. And the amount of stuff that it's probably affected your life, with that's you know, we I sympathize, I you know, and and that's okay. But in general, from the perspective of someone with the disordered anxiety, you know, framing stuff like that. Um, I think that's helpful. Do you think that's helpful, Trevor?

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Yeah, I think it's very helpful. The other thing that I think is is tremendously helpful. I will also point out, by the way, that while yes, we can 100% validate the frustration and the impact on your life if you're trying to help someone you love or you care about who's dealing with these anxiety problems. You are impacted, you are angry, you are disappointed, you are frustrated, all of those things, those are real, and you have to have you have to be able to express that and work that through for sure. But as crazy as it sounds, the response that you think is appropriate, it's all in your head. There's nothing wrong, is actually it's making that worse as crazy as it sounds. So when Josh says, yes, when you're, and on the flip side, you want it to be over for this person that you care about, but you also certainly don't want them to suffer. We can acknowledge that as well. But the one of the paradoxes here for the loved ones is you kind of have to let them and and in a way remind them that they are capable. It's okay, I know how legitimately terrified you are. This is an opportunity for you to practice working through that without me, without me saving you. I don't you don't need me to save you, but I'll stay with you while you work it out. That's a great way to start.

SPEAKER_03 14:39

Yeah, and what of what we a lot of what we talk about on this podcast is I did that despite being anxious. Yes. So don't fall into the trap of, well, how can we get rid of your anxiety at the theater? How can we get rid of your anxiety on holiday? How can we get rid of your anxiety when we're at the restaurant with my family? No, no, you do it despite that. Uh on this on Disordered, this podcast, we celebrate did it anyways. Uh uh, because we feel like it moulds the the the attitude required to to help um people get through certain stuff. Uh, we had put one sent in last week. Um, they've not named who they are, but I'll read one out. Hi, really enjoying the new podcast. My hashtag did it anyway. I've started driving for the first time in eight years, despite the anxiety and the what-ifs, because we all know anxious people get an abundance of what-ifs. Mainly, what if I panic while I'm driving? I drove 50 miles last weekend. Well, I definitely felt the adrenaline surge, so doing things despite being anxious a few times, but I did it anyway, and it feels so good. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

50 miles is no small thing.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

That's amazing, isn't it? Yeah, that's amazing. Uh and and that's really and don't get me wrong, we believe this person will get to a stage where they don't even think about driving anymore. You know, I'm just gonna go drive anywhere. But the steps to get there is that she was willing to drive whilst being anxious.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Yeah, and I think that illustrates, and I'm gonna I have one too, and we could say if you're listening here and trying to help someone you care about, you might say, Well, I drive 50 miles every day and not even think about it. But see what a big deal it was to this person who has accepted, understood what's going on, and is now working almost against the grain to intentionally be afraid so they could get better at being afraid so that they won't be afraid later. So that's the mechanism. The one that I have will blow a lot of minds. This person says, I went shopping alone. And then she says, I walked across the parking lot and everything. I was so proud of myself. Which for most people listening, if you're listening because you want to try and help someone that you care about who's struggling with this sort of stuff, look at that seemingly small thing walking across the parking lot for this person, that was a huge win for her.

unknown 17:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

So yes. Yeah. So I think it's really important to recognize and like, okay, my job here is not to try to soothe the person I care about or coddle them or make the make it go away, but to to show them, like, hey, remember the stories we heard on the podcast where those people did scary things, you can do that, you know, and recognize it. Even the small things are steps forward. You may have to scale back your expectations a little bit to start. Like instead of forcing your loved one to go on holiday for six days in another continent, you may have to start with letting them walk across the parking lot. But that's okay. That'll get you to holiday one day. Listen to me with the UK slang, holiday.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

Holiday.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

I'm very transatlantic.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Yeah. Um, and just be careful if there's any kind of cynical people listening. That may seem quite small to you, and we're not infantilizing people here. We drew and I have both very content, happy lives. I last week I spoke in front of about four or five thousand people. I live I can do most things that you know I'd like I'd live a nice, happy life, but I also was required to do the things like walk into supermarkets and be scared in car parks. Yeah. And I mean, one of the even walking to the end of my garden was one of the biggest ones. It doesn't mean that your loved one is this infant that needs to be coddled through stuff. They are facing that threat response. They're walking into a barrel of an empty gun, but it feels very real, and you've got to support them through that. Um, interestingly, you know, you know, you don't need to coddle and all that and encourage them, but afterwards it's exhausting, and that's when you can kind of coddle and be soft and nice and compassionate. Yeah. But encouraging them through the lens of compassion is your job.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Yeah. They've lost the ability to be confident in themselves. And on sometimes you will find that some of the people that you would think are the biggest, toughest, strongest people in the world can fall prey to this sort of thing. I mean, I think anybody who knew me before an anxiety disorder would never believe. And sometimes they see me talk about it now, think, really? You were afraid to go to the bottom of your driveway? You? Yeah, me. And so again, you know, it's one of the situations what you'll be really doing is helping this person that you care about rediscover that they are in fact capable, they can handle adversity, they can move through these things. So it's not an emergency, they can work through it, and it that changes everything over time.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

So, yeah, and this applies, and I just made a note then, Drew, like particularly with anxiety disorders like OCD. So if you've got a partner who struggles with OCD and is constantly asking for reassurance, um, you know, there's two things you could fall into here. It's like, well, I don't like seeing my loved one in discomfort and upset, so I'll provide that reassurance. Secondly, you might just be getting sick of it. It must be getting on your nerves. Um, because their threat response is just going wild. The fear, the terror is real, usually to do with an intrusive thought about guilt or something with high stakes. And even though it's just a thought, it's a thought that feels real, like Drew said before. It it feels real. Something real is happening in the body, and that and that terror is very acute. But remember, try not to lose your rag and try to remember and guide them to what the main goal is. The main goal is and something that we bang on on the bat on this podcast, um, you know, the philosophy of you know, how good can I get at at willfully tolerating this uncertainty? You know, it doesn't mean you have to be happy with the uncertainty, but willfully tolerating it, knowing that the probability is heavily on your side. Uh, and do that if next time you see a partner who's struggling with a panic attack or an intrusive thought or high anxiety or something like that, be like, it's all right, you know, this is a chance for you to show the threat response that you can tolerate this.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

And it's and and it is a wonderful feeling, and what a privilege to be part of that, if you want to.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yeah. Let's flip it. What if we take the opposite side of this? Sometimes I hear, and this is something that you might not expect that we're gonna talk about, but we are. I'm gonna steer us without notice to Josh here. The other side of they don't get it, especially in the in the case of a loved one who cares so much and wants to be protective and supportive, that they become a fixer, a shield, an enabler, a a clearer of the road. I will plow the obstacles for you and try to make it smooth for you so that you don't feel anxious and you can do things. Sometimes when people start to listen to to podcasts like this one and read books and whatnot, like Josh and I write. They discover, oh, my partner or my mom loves me and they're trying to save me from my anxiety and fix it and soothe me and make me not panic. And how do I tell them to stop doing that? They don't get it that I have to do hard things. That was me. At some point in my recovery, I literally had to sit people down and say, I am going to work myself now. I'm going to start working on this on my own in a solitary way. And you're going to think I'm crazy, but I'm going to intentionally terrify myself every morning for a while until I start to get better. Please do not ask me how I feel.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

I will ask you if I need your help. That's not you pushing people away or no.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

That was weird because especially in the case of one particular person, I mean, you know, it was my I could say it was my mom. That's fine. No one would be surprised that your mom is concerned. And I remember saying, please do not ask me how I feel anymore. Now there was a time when all I wanted to do was talk about how I felt. And now I had to say, Don't ask me anymore. I don't care what my face is saying, I don't care how much my leg is tapping, I don't care how much I'm pacing around, do not ask me how I'm feeling. If I need you, I promise I will ask for your help. And they they have to get on board. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:05

Yeah. And it's usually to people who feel a bit helpless or feel a bit guilty. Sure. Knowing the aim. And if you are this person, go listen to the there are other episodes. Um one of my favorite episodes we've done is the threat response. So if you really want to understand a bit more about what's happening in your loved one's brain, go listen to that. Unfortunately, you'll have to tolerate, willfully tolerate our voices for 30 minutes. Uh which is you can do your own exposure if you want. Uh string of self-righteous transatlantic ponces. Um, but in general, no, that if you want to learn a bit more, yeah, because knowing what the no knowing what the end goal is is important. Now it doesn't have to be military sergeant kind of no, you must get here and turn off and willfully throw the no no. Take the wins, but the credit, and that's another one of my favorite episodes. I think it was the last one that came out. Who gets the credit? Yeah, who gets the credit? The credit has to go to your partner. I think that's that's a really interesting way to flip it there because if you're doing all the hard work for your loved one, their amygdala, their threat response, and them holistically as a person are now are not learning that it's them that can do it.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

Right. And so they they wind up coming out of those very challenging experiences that if you care about somebody, you don't want them to struggle. Of course, we get that on a gut level, that's a human thing. But if you are the one constantly trying to smooth out all the bumps for them and making sure everything is set for them and that they won't be triggered, they learn that they can only do things if you are there to save them, or if they have their sweet snacks with them, or their cold water, or their mints, or their whatever. So, in a way, it's better for them to learn oh wow, nobody saved me. They cheered for me, they supported me, but nobody saved me, and and I still did it.

SPEAKER_03 24:54

Yeah, obviously the exceptions are you know if they've got chronic illnesses and stuff. So, yeah, sure. Look out for them, that and things. But in general, yeah, it has to be them versus their anxiety, and they overcame it. Yep. Um, it's okay to do stepping stones. Drew's excellent at talking about stepping stones. So it's an example of kind of how can they guide people into these kind of anxious exposures, maybe, um matter what the trigger is, but how can they guide people slowly whilst they're kind of learning to tread water themselves?

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Yeah, I think, and that's a tough one because your impatience, which is like we get, we're we're trying to validate that as well. You might be frustrated and impatient, and all you really want to do is take the family out to dinner one night, which is a three-hour outing that you really miss doing. But for your partner or your friend or whoever it is that feels they can't do that because of their anxiety, the better way to go would be to start with, okay, what what do you feel like you should not do? Let's bring it as back as far as possible here. And if that person says, I am really afraid to take a shower with the door closed or be alone in the house for five minutes, then that might be where you start. Even though you really want to just go out to dinner for three hours, you can't start with the biggest thing. We start with the smallest things. But believe me, if you can help that person begin to meet those small challenges, it will get them to where to where you want to go and where they want to go. They want to go with you.

SPEAKER_03 26:23

Yeah. Yeah. So that's a great example. If you uh if you're with someone with OCD who wants reassurance, yep. Can you Google this for me? Are you are you sure you want to be in this relationship? Right. Etc. etc. You know, okay, the the end, the the goal is to not give these kind of comp reassurance compulsions, but actually, we live in the real world. Sometimes you just might want to nap and go to sleep. So you give that reassurance compulsion. Um, and so, but what you can do is just a little stepping stone, is like you know, wait ten minutes. Yep. But you agree as well, don't be a manipulative, but you know, like kind of you know, putting off those compulsions, allowing this person to kind of do that because they'll get there and they need to learn that they'll get there. Yep. Um I still think it's really important.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Yeah, I think so. In in that respect, or hey, can you check the back of my leg again? You know, is there any is there anything, are there any marks on my leg, any moles, anything different? I've seen that where people become very obsessed with, you know, I take pictures of my face, so am I pale right now? A real supportive yet kind answer or compassionate answer would be I know how much you want me to answer that question right now, but what would happen if I didn't answer you for 15 minutes and you didn't know for 15 minutes? How about we try that?

SPEAKER_03 27:50

Oh, yeah, that's a good example. Drew, there drop drop modeling, excellent. Yeah, yeah. Um yeah, I think what really helped me was that just little bits of encouragement as well. Like, I know Drew is like he went kind of stone cold, Steve Austin. Don't ask me what I'm doing. You know, I I've got all this. Whereas sometimes, like, if you do want to check in, just be like, How you doing? You know, you've and then little appraisals now and then, like, you're doing really well. Or look where you were a year ago, look where you were a week ago, you know, because we have a guy on this podcast called Craig the Critic. It's Craig the Critic. Yeah, and people who've been anxious for a long time will also have Craig the Critic banging on in the background. Um, especially if you struggle with depression, Craig the Critic's very loud. And a nice antidote to Craig the Critic is someone to cut just step in and go, You're doing really well. Yeah. And again, not to infantilize, just to be human. You know, you're not like you know, you're doing really well. Here's your bottle and bitty, let me change your nappy. You're going as a human who's literally facing a fear response every day and choosing to go against it, going against hardware instinct because you know in the long run that it will help your life. That's courage. And please remind people of that.

SPEAKER_00 29:19

Yeah, I think a more valuable statement, uh, you know, the statement.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

I live said Betty, by the way. Sorry. We'll keep that in. No, that was solid.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Yeah, no, no, we're definitely keeping that in. Like, I think that one of the default statements that you might make when trying to help someone that you care about who's who's afraid is it's okay, it's gonna be okay. But really, the more helpful statement is you're being really brave right now. As opposed to, yeah. And then when it's all over, wow, like look what you did. And I know I I was a little bit, oh, don't call Steve Austin, made me laugh, but I did work in a solitary way. Listen, that's just my personality. But I will admit, there were times when I knew, like I could see that, like my wife, she she was seeing things, like, and she would do things like, hey, any chance you could go out and pick up uh, you know, we need bread for dinner, any chance you can go out and do that. She could see when I was ready to do stuff, and I'm like, Oh, that's good. I see what you're doing here. I know that you see me doing hard things and expanding my radius and getting better. And she would just do stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Like little acknowledgments, and that made me feel good. No doubt about it. Yeah, that's really empathetic, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 30:23

It's like, yeah, I'm gonna kind of passively put yeah, could I I could see what you were doing because she had gotten in the habit of knowing he doesn't do stuff, like I have to do everything. So when she started to see me change, she every once in a while would just a little acknowledgement, a little subtle acknowledgement. Sometimes I wanted to talk about it, but she she would wait for that, and otherwise she would just kind of gently acknowledge what I was doing, and that felt good. That's lovely. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

Um, people with monophobia and stuff is an example. Um, you know, if you're going to the park, why don't you agree with your partner to leave them for five minutes? You know, meet you back here. One big one is going shopping, you know. Lots of my clients, you know, go shopping with a loved one and then agree to meet back here at 10 minutes and then 20 minutes and whatever. And you they're teaching the brain that they can um kind of survive survive on their own. Yeah, you know, because anxiety isn't hurting you, it's just extremely convincing, you know, just like that phobia. Oh, that spider can't hurt me, but it's convincing.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Yeah, 100%. And it's that's one of those bedrock principles that people like Josh and I rely on. This person that you care about is doing really hard things, never dangerous things. So this is never about like sitting while they do dangerous things. They feel like they're dangerous, but they're learning through these experiences that oh, they were just really difficult, they were never really dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 31:48

They'll often they'll often have thoughts like, what if I lose control as well, which is a central tenet to many anxiety presentations. Um, but encourage them, challenge that. Yeah, you know, um, you know, unless they have comorbid psychological uh conditions where you know often they they they've lost control of their behavior in the past, very rare and the majority of people listening to this um probably haven't or don't have that. Um just a disclaimer. But in general, you know, if they're like, oh, what if I get in the car and veer into the central embankment, you know, with encourage them like, well, no, you're just worried that you might do that, you know. So if you can drive whilst being anxious with those really loud screaming what ifs going on, you know, encourage them with that, celebrate that. Yeah, winning, man, winning.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

And I think, and finally, before maybe we go into the questions that we get, if you are the struggling person listening to this with your loved one, watch if they are able to model a calm confidence back to you. I know you're very afraid, but I know you're safe, so I'm just gonna stand by you while you work through this hard thing. Take that. Take that because often, listen, I understand as an anxious person who is at the end of your rope, often anxiety will want to throw a bit of a tantrum and act up like no one cares, no one that you're abandoning me, support me, which is make me feel better. But take take the quiet, confident encouragement when you can, and understand when you're demanding to be soothed or maybe taken care of, which everybody deserves sometime. Don't get me wrong, but I understand you're frustrated.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

But yeah, yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. We all we never forget anyone on here as well. Um we live in the real world, and there'll be some of you listening to this who don't have anyone that was willing to get it, that wants to get it, maybe around just some nasty people, you know, and that does happen, and I hear that, and you're not alone in that sense. Yeah, and and if you are really anxious, you're surrounded by people who just don't want to get it, maybe they're just old school and just of a generation, they don't want to want to get it, still no excuse in my eyes. Or maybe you're just with a narcissist, or maybe you're with someone who just doesn't like feeling discomfort, and you are a person that makes them discomfort, and they let you know that uh maybe you're just around selfish people, maybe you're just alone, you know. Um that's okay, we hear you, we hear you, and if you're around people who just don't want to get it, don't get me wrong, I empathize, it's frustrating some people, but I judge people on intention and where you're going, you know, and you what you judge your intentions and behaviors. If people want to get it or they they ask what they can do to help or whatever, then you can work with that. I can work, you know, I can work with a grain of sand with that. Yeah. Even with the people who have no lexicon or language to help, you if if the intention's there, you can work with it. But there are just some selfish people out there, and my advice for you is just tell them to f off. Go f yourself.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

You selfish hang on, editing notes. That is true. And as much as we're laughing, and and hopefully the the boots are going to be humorous to you when I put them in. Um those people unfortunately do exist. That's true. And I will remind, and we will probably do podcast episodes just on this because I think it's a really important topic. None of the stuff we talk about here, whether you're coming from the old school Claire Weeks float and accept, or you hear Josh say willful tolerance, or you hear me say things like intentional surrender, we do not willfully tolerate being abused or hurt or manipulated or you know, anything like that. That is not an exposure problem. So we'll talk about that down the road because sometimes people confuse that. Like, how can I willfully tolerate somebody who treats me very badly? You we don't do that. That's not a thing. No, that's very different.

SPEAKER_03 35:52

We turn off a disordered threat response. Right. That's your threat response not being disordered, it's doing its job. Yeah. I hear you.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

All right, should we move it on to like uh questions from the audience?

SPEAKER_03 36:04

We got we got quick questions, quick questions from the audience. We we shared two lovely did it anyway, so we'll save that for them for the next episode. But um, yeah, what questions have we got?

SPEAKER_00 36:14

So I will answer, and by the way, if you want to ask us a question, you can go to disordered.fm and you can either send us a question by email or you can even hit the little blue voicemail button and record us a voicemail if you want.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

Yeah. Also, if you're someone who isn't a regular listener of this or or a loved one who's listening, feel free to send us a question too. Yeah, sure. Actually, I want to know a bit more about anxiety to help my loved one. We'd love to answer those as well.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Yeah. We get we get them from parents all the time. I'm listening to help my son or my daughter, which is always great. If you're here to help somebody, my hat is off to you.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

Yeah, we love that.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

So this question is about this is a Craig the Critic question for sure. Um, anyway, hearing your experiences and insights, this person says, has helped me to begin to do some small exposure work and to actively be kinder to myself during the process. Well done. Um, I'd really be interested to hear any advice you have about navigating the small steps before taking the big ones, like we talked about earlier in this episode. After many years of cognitive behavioral therapy and some pretty strict therapists, I find myself being really self-critical when I'm not able to face the bigger goals yet. I can feel myself spiraling into a bad headspace when I avoid the bigger things, as I know it's not supporting the direction I want to be going in. So this is a question about that self-criticism over like, well, I just did a hard thing, but I should have done a harder thing, so therefore I'm failing.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's that's interesting. Where would you start with that? That's a tricky one.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

I I I think there's I have a practical tip, and then I definitely want to hear what you have to say about this. If this was somebody I was working with, I would say, let's start with a pen and a piece of paper, like a piece of paper and a pen. And every time you do a thing that you were afraid to do, just write down what you did and let those things start to add up. So when you start to get into that self-critical mode, today I I stayed home alone for 10 minutes. But I should be able to do that for two hours. What's wrong with me? Go back and look at all the hard things you have done over the past two weeks that you thought you couldn't do. And that can sometimes help you remember that. Oh, wait, I just did a hard thing now. Remember when I couldn't stay home alone at all? So I think uh I like to call it a success journal. That can be sometimes a real help uh in that situation. But this is to me, I don't know if you hear it in your community or in your practice, it's pretty common. People tend to totally discount their wins.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

I don't know why. It's a s it's a skewed success criteria. Your model for success is skewed. Craig the critic has stolen it and drawn loads of scribbles over it. Yeah. And he's twisted. And if you don't have a success criteria that is um achievable, done in a way that you can that reinforces your good exposure work. And if your exposures are measured by Craig the Critic alone, then you're not gonna make well, you've already made progress, it sounds like, with the questions are well done. Yeah, but where you are at the moment is a bit like, well, hold on. My success criteria, my conditions of success, have been hijacked and turned into a binary view of success by Craig the Critic, who has decided to move the goalposts. Yes, I hear these all the time. You know, um, one of the analogies I use, I love football, the actual football, not the ones where you put shoulder pads on and spend 10 hours before you throw a ball and turn another. Anyway, I'll probably get some uh the proper football, the ones where you roll around when you touch lightly and and dive around and complain to the to the ref.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

The one with the 50,000 singing hooligans in the stands. I'm a fan of exact, I'm one of them.

SPEAKER_03 39:49

Uh yeah, uh yeah, and um I often say, like, you know, if you if you're David Beckham, anyone knows who David Beckham is, he used to be great at taking free kicks, and you'd kick the ball and watch it curl around the wall and plant in the top corner, and on the replay, you'll stand he's there, he's watching it, he's admiring it. What's the point? You know, what you're doing is you're taking a free kick like Beckham, and by the time you've as soon as you've kicked it, you've turned around and you're thinking about oh well, I didn't score two. Why don't you just enjoy the free kick? You know, enjoy it. Or you're so critical, Craig the Critic has has stepped in so much that when you've kicked the ball, he's ran and moved the goalposts already. So rather than going, that's my inner critic, that's Craig the Critic. No, you're going, Oh yeah, I didn't hit the target. Well, of course you didn't, because your critic your inner critic hijacked it. You must celebrate the little wins. Um I always advise going to therapy and stuff, exploring that kind of stuff. You know, whether it's just a safe space, stuff like that. We often develop Craig Craig the Critics. Um and we'll do an episode just on Inner Critic at some point. Um but yeah, we we do those things. It's okay. Celebrate it, keep going. There's it's it's the equivalent of saying, you know, oh, I got 80% on my essay. Well, why didn't you get 90? You know, and some people actually grow up with people like that. Really annoying. Yeah, yeah. They're part of that swearing rant. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

They fall right in there. I love what the part when you said binary, you know, you've binary uh Craig the Critic will turn it into a binary thing. You are either completely better or you are failing. And yeah, I like to- I was impressed with that.

SPEAKER_03 41:37

I was impressed with my stuff.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

That was impressive to let you know that's where's where you get your money's worth on this episode of Distorted also, because I'm gonna build on the binary thing and I'm gonna bring NASA into this. Yes, people, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. So when NASA decided that we should put somebody on the moon many moons ago, many years ago, they didn't just put them on the moon on Tuesday after the meeting on Monday. So there were so many little tiny milestones and tests, and now we're gonna fire this rocket engine that no one's watching, and maybe it works for 15 seconds. Did they do the rocket engine test and say, oh, F it, we're not on the moon. Let's let's close it down. No, everything was a step toward the moon.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

So I wonder how many things exploded by the time that they actually got anything in there. Yeah, yeah, because you're gonna do exposures that suck. It's not like after loads of like, oh, yeah, that like we still learn something from today.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Yeah, we're heading toward the moon. Like, you know, we're not uh yeah, I'm not there today, but I'm moving toward it.

SPEAKER_03 42:33

So as I'm crying in Walmart, I'm gonna I will get to the moon one day.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yeah, and that's fine. You put to let that stick in your head. Hear us talking about the moon. So yeah, when you're terrified to go into the frozen food section, it's like I'll be on the moon one day. No one will understand why you're saying it, but we will.

SPEAKER_03 42:48

So we hope you get it a bit more. Yeah, thank you for tuning in. If you've just decided to listen to this, even against your will or begrudgingly, we still really respect that.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:58

Uh and and well done.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 43:01

And and and for those who still struggle, thanks for tuning in. Yeah, you'll get there. Um, you know, we want to hear it as well. So feel free to go to disordered.fm um and leave a voicemail or send us an email, but we get lots of messages and emails and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:17

And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

We'll see you again next week. I'll be back in a minute to wrap it up and give you some directions, but otherwise we'll see you in the next episode. Thanks, Drew. It's always a pleasure. Yeah, we're out. See you later. Hey, it's Drew. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Disordered. Josh and I both hope that you're finding it helpful in some way. For more information about Josh or me or the Disordered Podcast, find us on the web at disordered.fm. That's disordered.fm. Pop on over and find links to our social media platforms, join our mailing list so we can let you know when new podcast episodes are available, and we'll send you easy ways to ask us questions and share your wins so we can answer questions on the air and share your successes with the community. And if you're listening to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any platform that lets you rate a review, do us a favor and leave us a five-star rating and maybe write a review if you're digging disordered. It really helps us out and we appreciate that. Thanks again for coming by, and we'll see you in the next episode.