My Anxiety Makes Me Frustrated / Angry / Sad / Guilty! (Episode 109)

SPEAKER_04 0:01

Hi both. I have a question that I don't think has been addressed before. I suffered with panic disorder and have recently experienced resensitization. I found this very challenging emotionally as I thought I'd overcome my anxiety disorder for good last time. My question is about crying. I am doing everything anyway and feeling the anxiety, but I cry most days about how sad I am that my anxiety interferes with my life so much at the moment, and often cry after I had to sit through panic. Does crying signal to the brain that I am still very fearful of the anxiety? Is it reinforcing the threat response, or is it an okay form of release? Thank you for everything you do. Contrary to popular belief, after two episodes 107 in a row, uh I am Drew Linsolata, one of the co-hosts of Disordered. Today we're going to talk about the fact that anxiety can be really frustrating and make you angry. So it's a good topic. We got to get to it. Thanks for the question sender interer for kicking this off. Uh, what can I tell you about me before we get to my esteemed co-host? I am a therapist practicing in the area of anxiety and anxiety disorders in the state of New York. I'm a former sufferer of these very same problems for many years of my life, but much better now. Thank you very much. Three-time author, social media guy, psychoeducator, advocate, all of the things, and clearly one of the guys behind disordered. And I'm joined as always by Hi everyone.

SPEAKER_03 1:32

I'm Josh Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist uh based in Manchester in the UK. Previous sufferer, podcast co-host, social media mess arounder. You know, you know the drill by now. Yeah, we met you.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

It's all good. So uh this was a good question. The question the person didn't want us to use their name, so we won't, but thank you for asking. I I'm crying, I wind up crying because I'm so sad because of my anxiety. I think this is something we don't talk about enough.

SPEAKER_03 2:03

Yeah, sorry, I was having a coughing fit. Um, yeah, I remember I used to get really upset when I was in the midst of an anxiety disorder. It's it's takes its toll on you, particularly when you compare yourself to a time when you weren't sensitized. Uh I like how the question sender inner said, you know, I've been re-sensitized again. Uh and it's about your relationship with resensitization or just your relationship with anxiety itself. If you feel the kind of person who gets anxious and then suddenly goes, Oh no, I'm doing something wrong. Um, and then Craig the critic often comes out that can evoke feelings of failure, disappointment, frustration. Um and yeah, I think you know, Drew wanted to talk about this today, and actually, you know, is you're you're you're a human being, you're gonna have these emotions.

SPEAKER_04 2:52

Yeah, I think it's um, I mean, I I kind of describe them sometimes my therapy clients as meta emotions, which they kind of are, but that's not entirely accurate. It's the emotions you have about the emotions you have, in a way. So if you're really anxious or afraid or uncertain or you feel vulnerable and, you know, all those things are happening to you and it's restricting your life. Now I have emotions about that problem, which is it makes me sad or it makes me angry or I'm frustrated because I can't seem to get better fast enough and I feel like I'm missing my life, or some people will have they'll even experience grief or or mourn a little for the time that they've lost in their lives to this. Those are not floating and accepting problems, those emotions. And I think that's one of the things that I I surprised me. I wind up talking about a lot. Like if you're frustrated because your anxiety has you kind of pinned in the corner right now, and I understand why that would be frustrating, you have to express that frustration somehow. Like that's not a, oh, I just have to sit with it and be silent or pretend it's not there or you know, like not react to it. No, no, no. That's not the anxiety, that's the fact that you're having a genuine emotional response to a difficult time that you're having in your life. We don't suppress that or or try to skate past it. It's okay to have that. And I think it's a confusing thing for people, sort of, you know, and and and our listenership here, like, well, you guys are always telling me that I have to practice non-engagement, just go to do what non-anxious me would do. Yeah, it sometimes, but not in this one. I don't know if that makes any sense. Am I describing that well?

SPEAKER_03 4:18

Yeah, you see, you're describing, you know, the the holistic situation of of having an anxiety disorder. It's it's frustrating, it's it's exhausting. Um and those feelings are valid. You know, um, I think you're spot on when you say, you know, it is frustrating that actually a lot of my days I've got to practice this acceptance, world tolerance, surrender, acceptance, whatever. And actually, yeah, what how do you feel about having to do that for a while? Well, yeah, that's annoying. I'm upset, you know. Maybe I've got an upcoming event. Um, maybe I've got a wedding I had, you know, that that I was looking forward to. Maybe I've, you know, I want to spend time with my kids, maybe I'm not enjoying work or the the gig that I wanted to. And you're gonna have a reaction to that. You're gonna be it's you're a human being, like you that's okay, but we don't apply necessarily, you know, willful tolerance to that. Right. Um, obviously, if you're getting really wound up about it, and you know, you've got a fierce internal critic, and you're and you're someone who's you know, really down on themselves for having anxiety, yeah, then it can go too far. But like I think anyone with an anxiety disorder, you're allowed to have to be frustrated now and then. Yeah. If it's your default to be frustrated, then we work on that and be like, okay, you know, and we we always try and you know do cognitive reframes and be like, right, this is what we're doing. We're teaching the brain, we're actually helping ourselves, we're building our resilience, our confidence, and stuff. But you know, if you're teary now and then, you know, it's okay. We don't we don't fix that.

SPEAKER_04 5:58

Yeah, I think you gotta find healthy ways to express that. So, like, sometimes people will ask me, like, well, I don't understand what am I supposed to do with that? And admittedly, it is can be a gray area. I like what you just said. Like, if your default says, I get frustrated that I have to do exposures, I get frustrated that I have to face this fear, I get frustrated that I'm afraid of things that my friends are not, and I know I shouldn't be, or I don't have to be. I'm frustrated, I'm angry, but then that default, that valid emotion gets turned as a weapon against yourself. Well, now we have to make sure we address that thing. Like, no, it doesn't have to be a weapon pointed at you. But if you're feeling frustrated or sad or or regretful or even guilty over it, you can't not have an emotion, right? So, in a way, emotions are a willful tolerance thing, but also they have to be expressed. So I might say, well, I don't know, maybe you want to journal on this or or talk to a friend or somebody trusted or your therapist, or like, you got to get these things out. Write poetry, finger paint. I don't care. Like you have to hit a pillow if you need to. Like, you have to find a way to let these emotions flow and and and deal with them in a healthy way. But we wouldn't say, sit down and journal on all of your symptoms and just keep talking about how you thought you were gonna die every day in seven pages handwritten. That we wouldn't journal on and like give a lot of time to, but these emotions we might. So it's it's complicated, I think, and it confuses people, for and rightly so. But if you try to suppress those emotions, they're gonna come and get you at some point. Ain't going away.

SPEAKER_03 7:27

Hit a pillow if you if you have to. And as you said that there is a small vulnerable man called Pillow out there anticipating grievous bodily harm from someone with an anxiety disorder. Probably right. I'm sorry, Pillow.

SPEAKER_04 7:45

If you're out there and your name is Pillow, I didn't mean to cause you any harm. I'm very sorry, but it's happening again. Yeah, but there's like a million different ways people express emotions, go for a walk. I mean, that can be difficult too, because also for people who are dealing with these types of problems we're always addressing, sometimes big emotions like guilt over maybe not being able to participate you want the the way you want to in your family life, that guilt is a big, strong emotion and can instantly morph into fear or trigger panic or fake trigger like ruminative thinking and that sort of stuff. So it can be hard to tease them out. Like I don't even know what I'm supposed to do with that. I get really sad and then bam, I'm instantly in a panic because I experienced the big wave of emotion called sadness. So it can be really difficult to tease those things apart. But those the meta emotions, if you will, the emotions about your struggle, those are not like problems or things that you're trying to learn how to get away from. Really, this is this is hard. This is a very gray area, I think.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

It's a gray area, and it will evoke a lot of emotions. Like when you go toe toe-to-toe with fear and you do exposures and you lean into uncertainty, and we tolerate discomfort. When you look at it from a top-down perspective, it's very dry, it's very clinical, but it evokes so many other facets of you when you do scary things. It might remind you of a time when you have had to do scary things in the past and felt you know vulnerable and maybe been put down by people, and it reminds you of that. It has these ripple effects. Yes, we go in very well, like do the exposures, doing all that, but when you do something you know powerfully evocative that requires you to draw upon yourself compassion and do those things, you do have yeah, these kind of um externalities that uh just suddenly surface and what it means for you. You know, it might remind you of a time where you've had to be brave in the past, and that might come up. It might remind you of a parent who struggled with an anxiety disorder but never got their help. It might remind you of a lot of these uh of these things, you know. And it's also important to understand that multiple emotions can exist, you know, around the same time. Yeah, you could have had a great day of exposures, you've done everything right, your confidence is building, you managed to do something today that you couldn't do last week, but then at the end of it, you might be tired and exhausted, and there might be a feeling of, yeah, this is tiring though. And you know, and whilst I'm doing really well, you know, there is that frustration there that maybe I'm not ready to do the big thing that I wanted to do yet. And I think Drew and I are saying that's okay. We don't we don't fix that.

SPEAKER_04 10:23

Yeah, there's nothing you can do about that. Express it, find a way to express it, whether it's silently to yourself or or talking to somebody that you trust or whatever, or however way you can think of to do that, it's important. I I always try and tell people, like, well, that's an emotion you're just gonna have have to have. Just be careful about deciding the rest of your life based on that emotion. So I think one of the big differences is like the in the moment emotions, your OCD is screaming at you that you're in some sort of threat or something bad is gonna happen, and it's screaming at you to compulse to bring that discomfort down. Often that's an immediate danger. Like I'm in an immediate, urgent situation. These sort of meta emotions can hint at like, but I've lost so much of my life already. I'm uh is it too late for me? I'm never gonna get that time back. Like it's very fatalistic long-term consequences that come with some of these emotions. They hint at sometimes, what if I never actually fully recover? What if this is as good as it gets? So have those emotions sadness, anger, frustration, grief, resentment, uh, whatever you got. Just be careful about drawing conclusions about the rest of your life from those emotions in that moment. They don't predict the rest of your life. I promise they really don't.

SPEAKER_03 11:28

It applies retrospectively as well. Often here, you know, oh, how much of my life have I wasted? And that's just nonsense because you don't actually waste any time. Everything you're learning every day, even if you're stuck inside, or yeah, you're ruminating on the same OCD theme or whatnot. You're always learning. Um, it's okay, but again, those feelings might come up. Um, am I a bad person for constantly being inwards when I need to engage with friends, loved ones, my kids? You know, it's okay to be frustrated at that. Yeah, and it's okay to feel those feelings. It doesn't mean it's definitive, it doesn't mean that that emotion is correct or whatever, or it doesn't solidify a negative belief about yourself. It's just all right, sometimes I'm gonna feel like crap, and that's okay. I don't need to resist that either. Um, but I can be compassionate with things like that are in my control, like my attention and what to engage with. Which was actually evident in some of the did it anyways that we were sent. Have we got a nice did it anyway, uh, true that we can quite slam on the decks?

SPEAKER_04 12:45

Yeah, let's throw this one up right now. It's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 12:51

Hi guys, my name's Laura. I'm calling from Australia. I just wanted to send in my Did It Anyway, and it's a few Did It Anyways in one. Um, I've suffered from panic disorder and agrophobia for the past um on and off for seven months, but sort of the last probably 15 years in certain phases. And today I went out with my children and my husband. We played indoor golf in a busy shopping centre. I haven't been able to go to a shopping centre for the last seven months due to having a bad panic attack there, but I did it anyway. And we went and we had a lovely time, and then we actually went into Coles, which is like um a Saintsbury's or like a Walmart over here, and we bought some food as well. That was usually a trigger, and I did it anyway, and I'm not done yet. We also sat in a huge line coming out of the underground car park, and I was fine. And even if I felt a few physical symptoms coming up, I just made sure that I reminded myself, you know, it's just your anxiety, everything's absolutely fine. Um, yeah, it was just a really, really good morning. Um thank you so much. Your podcast has been really pivotal in my recovery. Love listening to you guys every week and keep up the amazing work. You're helping so many people.

SPEAKER_04 14:13

Well done. And that even got a uh she even threw in a but I'm not done yet! She went through in the Billy Mays reference. So good. I love that.

SPEAKER_03 14:20

Oh, well done. That's really good. Well done, Laura. I think it's uh fantastic. And uh my brain's strange as Laura's just describing that um playing indoor golf in a shopping center, and my brain just went to her and her family lining up golf balls and just seeing how many people they she could hit, you know, like, or there's not even that, just like the hole is in coals, and we're gonna play indoor golf here, you know. Like we assume as humans that there's like a sh like a certain company or jobs. Yeah, but the twist is Laura actually decided, no, I'm going to play golf in here.

SPEAKER_04 15:02

And that there was no indoor driving range, there was no top golf, which for those of you in the US know top golf, they just decided to do that.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Yeah, yeah. Well, if I'm willfully tolerating, then everyone else can willfully tolerate my four-iron. Whack, whack.

SPEAKER_04 15:15

Laura, if you are listening to this episode, please send us video of you guys just hammering. Oh, there's Warcraft again. Um, you know what that is? That's to remind me to produce this episode. But please send us video of you guys just hammering titleists off the frozen food coolers while everyone runs for their lives.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

That's fantastic. I also like the uh I went into calls, but also Sainsbury's or Walmart. I love that too. We have calls here.

SPEAKER_04 15:39

I think it might be the same calls. We have calls in the US or it might be different. I I don't really know. But uh very good. Good job, Laura. Thank you for sending that in. Appreciate it. Uh, this is the kind of stuff, too, that when you talk about retroactive emotions, like this sort of stuff can be really great. But I find that people who are well along the way or they're having a lot of wins now and they're feeling better and they're getting their life back will often have that retroactive regret or guilt or even your grief over, like, oh, you like you said, I can't believe I lost so much time. And I think the tough thing about that one is I I have people ask me that too. I'm sure you've heard this question. Well, what do you do with that? Well, feel it. Like, because there's literally nothing you can do. And sometimes the question about these big emotions like sadness or or grief or guilt is, but how do I not feel that way? Well, there's no answer to that. You just feel that way until you don't, because that's the natural way it will progress. And guess what? For the rest of your life, some days you might wake up and think, like, oh, that was a really bad time in my life. Okay, you know, you can't erase it. So, like, you might have to just learn how to have that emotion and let it play itself out and then go back to what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 16:42

So, yeah, yeah. And particularly as well, when you've got Craig the critic who steps in, and when you've had an anxiety disorder that consumes you, as Drew says, it can make you a selfish person, not selfish as in derogatory, as in like it's a very self-centered condition, isn't it? We have to have our attention on ourselves because we feel scared. Um, well that can get in the way of other events in your life where you you feel bad that you couldn't feel a more appropriate emotion. So maybe you've been to a funeral and couldn't really grieve properly because you're obsessing about an intrusive thought. Maybe you couldn't really enjoy your wedding day, you know, because you're worried about having a panic attack. You know, you couldn't enjoy your child's first day at school because you were compulsing upstairs. That does come with emotions and that's okay, but you've got to be compassionate to yourself. Well, well, yeah, I had an anxiety disorder, you know, I can feel them now. I can look back over my wedding photos and enjoy the memories. I can reflect and grieve on that about that person now just because I missed that window, you know, and and so whilst you allow those emotions to come in and that frustration, yes, a lot of it is dictated by Craig the critic, a lot of it's dictated by just being human. But I I think there's never like there's never not a time. Never not a time, there's never not a time uh where compassion um isn't always welcome. I always think just being compassionate, whether it's reframing it, being kind to yourself, stop fitting yourself into rigid boxes and just be like, all right, okay, well, that's what happened. Yeah, you know, you know, uh particularly for the emotionally conservative people. Why am I grieving the person they they died 20 years ago? It feels silly to worry about that. No, it doesn't. Right. Just let it be there.

SPEAKER_04 18:45

I have people who say that over like the loss of partners or parents. Like, I should be over that by now. So, like, yeah, but clearly it's okay to still be grieving somebody years after they're gone. It's okay to be sad about that time in your life when your anxiety had you pinned down. Like, that's gonna happen. And I think some of that self-compassion starts with, you know, being kind to yourself is recognizing that that's a normal emotion to have. Like, uh, you don't have to like that you have the emotion, but you don't have to hate yourself for having it. So, like the emotion is a reflection of what was going on in your life, it's a reflection of what's important to you. It does not reflect the defect, a defect, or a deficiency in you. So be careful about that. You know, don't draw, don't draw conclusions about the rest of your life and don't draw conclusions about you because you have that emotion. I feel so guilty over this. Okay, well, human beings are gonna feel guilt sometimes. We do things that in retrospect we wish we didn't do. They feel like mistakes. It doesn't mean we're bad people. All right, so be careful about that.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

You can learn from it as well.

SPEAKER_04 19:43

Yeah, you can.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

Like for the the question sender in a um I'd ask, you know, all right, I don't like that I'm crying and doing all this and worried about why anxiety is back and why I'm resensitized. Learn from it. Like I as a therapist, and if you're interested in those things, it's like why am I crying? Why does this mean so much to me? Yes, it's okay to cry, but actually, maybe I'm a perfectionist. Maybe I've always had high standards for myself. Maybe I'm crying because yes, the anxiety is uncomfortable, but yes, maybe I'm not ticking off the conditions of worth that I've laid out for myself.

SPEAKER_04 20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

So what what does the anxiety mean symbolically to me? I'm failing as a human, I'm failing as a parent, I'm failing as a partner, um, I'm failing as a valuable contributor to society, yeah. Um, and all these things, uh, and learn from it. You know, okay, I accept and it's okay that I'm crying and stuff right now, and I'm in tears quite a lot, but why? What else is it evoking? I would always ask people to reflect on. Yeah, you know, it's and for me, it was like I used to get upset with anxiety because yeah, I I I there are elements in my life where I was like, Oh, I could be better there, I could be a better sibling, I could be a better boyfriend, I could be uh I could be doing more with my life, and that was tapping into where anxiety disorders overlap with your values. And and I'm glad it happened. You know, I I said to you, Drew, I wouldn't ever I'd never take back having an anxiety disorder, I'd never get take back becoming resensitized. I learned more about anxiety when I became resensitized. Yeah. So to anyone who gets resensitized or anyone who says, Oh, you know, I I thought I solved it and it's come back. No, learn. What did you learn from about it? Well, I learned when I got resensitized. Yeah, I was really frustrated and I had those emotions, but I was like, I thought I never had to. And what I learned is that I thought I could just leave willful tolerance alone.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

You know, the more I sit with like live, breathing, real, three dimensional people and get to do this work, which I think is a privilege to do, the more those people. I know. They're not happy sitting with me, but I'm thrilled to sit with them. No, don't joking. I hope they're happy.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Sure, you've been asked to leave.

SPEAKER_04 22:06

Yeah, I just do it in just random diners and restaurants. And it's I apparently that's not appropriate. I didn't know this. But I I think one of the things I have come to believe is that some resensitization is almost a required part of this. Yeah. Because that's when you learn the most. So I've had people, and if you guys are listening, you know, you you know what's going on here. That's that whole like, oh, I had such a great, you know, six weeks, but now it's, you know, I'm back on square one. I'm like, yeah, I was just waiting for the day when this happened to you, and you have to have this happen to you. This is where you're going to learn even more. And sure enough, in retrospect, they'll understand. First of all, they come at it more quickly because they can't unknow what they now know. And, you know, they do learn something from it. Uh I just want to mention to the person who sent in the question specifically, she specifically asked, and we're now like 22 minutes into this and didn't answer her. Is crying telling, you know, telling my brain that I'm still afraid of the anxiety? That's not a question. That's not even, you don't need an answer to that because you don't even have to ask that question. That's not even a question that needs to be asked. In this thing that we do, we are moving from I can only reliably and and acceptably exist in a very narrow range of states. Like I can only be calm or maybe happy, and that's the only thing that's allowed. No, I'm also learning that I could be anxious and even tearful. Because if I'm a natural crier, well, I can try to suppress that, but how's that working for you? So while we might not want to cry, if we are criers, then cry, and you're gonna have to learn that that's also an acceptable, although maybe not desired in a moment, state. You can handle it. So no, cry if you need to. If you're a crier, cry. Go for it.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

I've I've cried during some of my best exposures.

SPEAKER_04 23:46

All right, so there you go.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

And it's it's not when you're crying, you're not teaching you know the amygdala, I can't handle this. If you're doing stuff and you're allowing feelings, if anything. That's right. So what so when you're crying, you're allowing feelings, you're allowing actually your body to regulate itself, yeah, by having to feel what it needs to feel. Don't add extra worry by being like, Oh, I shouldn't cry about this. No, just cry, it's cool. Like, I've done it. I've done exposures with loads of clients, you know, like whether they're crying from fear, crying with joy, crying from from relief, crying with anger. Yeah, that's okay. You you you can't get hyperfixed on am I doing recovery right? Yeah, is this right?

SPEAKER_04 24:31

And speaking of regulator, it's we haven't heard that one in a long time. Speaking of the word, you use the word regulating, and like crying is a natural regulation. It's a way of who'd have thought, right? Imagine that. Like if you let yourself feel all the feelings, and some of you may have heard me say the this phrase, all states are permissible. That's what we have to learn as part of the recovery process. If you allow yourself to cry because you're a that's a natural way that your body releases tension or responds to distress, then trying to suppress it is a bad idea. So if y'all want to find ways to regulate your nervous system, let it regulate itself the way it knows how to. And crying might be one of those things for some of you. Not all of us are criers, but some people are criers, and it's not a bad thing. Sometimes a lovely thing. It makes you sometimes a little bit more expressive than others. But unfortunately, you don't only get to cry happy. If you're a crier, you're gonna cry at everything, and that's okay, though. You're allowed to be you, so we question them, I guess. Oh well, another date anyway. Yeah, we can do another dude anyway. We have two more audios, but there's one that I want to read because this one is just too good to not play. Okay, we even have music behind it. You know the one I'm talking about. So this one comes in from this person didn't say to use her name, so I'm not gonna use the name. But uh, she writes, Hi Drew and Josh, and we even have background music, and you guys will understand as I do this. I've been recovering from panic disorder and gad. I'm not a fan of crowds, but for my birthday, I got tickets to see the idols. Now, Josh seems to know the idols, right? So uh it's a British punk hardcore band at a large venue. I've never been to a hardcore show, and I wasn't super familiar with the band and had never seen them live except on tiny desk concerts, which was chill, so I had no idea what I was walking into. My husband, an experienced punk rock concert goer, was surprised when I kept saying we should get closer to the front, because that's not my style. The concert started and immediately the lead singer instigated a wall of death, split the crowd in half, and then they run at each other full speed to spot the m to start the mosh pit. Imagine my surprise. I've never been in a mosh pit in my life, but there I was for the next two hours in the wildest exposure I've ever been a part of. Someone tried to get me to crowd sturf at one point. The best part of the exposure is I kept trying to leave, but I couldn't because of the crowd, so I got to stay with my uncomfortable feelings and ride it out. Anyway, my nervous system saw God that night, but I had a great time. And sometimes it's just better to not know what you're getting self into. Thank you for all you do. You truly changed my life. I could not enjoy this anyway any more than I already do. 100% gets a round of applause.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

Well done. That's brilliant. My nervous system's starting. Yeah, I've seen that. I love how you I love how you said they're just called idols, dude, not the idols. I'm totally right. You sound like a granddad who's like, you know.

SPEAKER_04 27:31

Did you enjoy did you enjoy the rock and roll kids? Get off my lawn. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Yeah, and that's a that's a heavy idol's concerts are heavy as well. Like, fair play, well done. That's a that's called flooding. That's a flooding explosion. It works, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 27:52

Yeah, but you know, I give this person all kinds of credit for allowing herself to be open to the lesson she may have gotten. This could have gone the other way. For some anxious people, this would have gone the other way. That was terrible. I was terrified the whole time. I was so anxious the whole time, never gonna do anything like that again. So, full marks for opening up and saying, Well, maybe it's a thing that I wouldn't do again. Don't know. But like I did it, I handled some real new experiences that night. So amazing. I can't disappointed that she didn't crack it.

SPEAKER_03 28:22

I really enjoyed that one.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

Um, I love it. I even got asked to crowdserve. Very good. And for those of you listening who feel like a walk around the block or to your mailbox isn't is out of the question because it's just intolerable. I I'm guessing that this person at one point might have thought the same thing. So keep going. Like I promise, you can get there. All right. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Or if if you're someone with OCD and you, you know, you you're you're not falling into you know, you're actually gonna not do compulsions and be with feelings for the afternoon and stuff. That's also a lot. And go with the emotions that come up. Oh, I just need to compulse just in case. No, no, no, no, no, no. You be with that. You you just picture yourself in the middle of an idol's mosh pit where the you can't even you don't have time to compulse. You couldn't even mentally compulse because you just there's just no time.

SPEAKER_04 29:12

Good writing, too. A lead singer instigated a wall of death. I'm like, oh boy, that's not what I thought I would have signed up for. But all right, let's do it. We're here now. So very good. Um we got two more. Yeah, we got two more. I want to throw in one more thing at the 30-minute mark, and then I'll then I'll go off my soapbox here. This topic today, about like the emotions about the emotions, and you said something earlier. Like it when you do scary things and you gotta deal with adversity like this, the whole rest of your life is gonna show up in that room, right? So whether you're alone in the room or you're with the therapist or whoever and you're working on it, I gotta say this. This is why we have to be so careful in the area of anxiety disorders, it can look so mechanical that it leads to stuff that happens online where, well, I used to have panic attacks and I read Claire Weeks and I did exposures, and I know that it's only the response that matters, and this very mechanical, one-dimensional view of how recovery looks, that's not right. So sometimes people with the problems we're addressing can start to feel these sort of meta-emotions like hopelessness, nothing works, no one'll get better. Because the person who likes makes really funny reels about their anxiety and seems to know what they're talking about couldn't fix them.

SPEAKER_03 30:25

Are you referring to me? Is that a thinly veiled attack? It's you screw you, Drew. I'll fight you.

SPEAKER_04 30:30

I'm talking about you. I can't fight a man who just ate an ice cream cone.

SPEAKER_03 30:34

I was I was prepped to fight Sean Kassam, but now York.

SPEAKER_04 30:37

Now I'm a guy. But like, so I I'm okay, uh, you know, oh, there he is again going off on the, you know, the this the people. But I think it's important because I see the meta emotions like this come up when people have had those experiences. Like I was in this person's mastermind and I was in this person's coaching group, and I and like nothing works for me. Like, okay, but that doesn't mean, but what about all this part? These emotions or something. Like, did this person even think to address those with you? Well, no, it was just the same message again and again. So that's why I think these this part of the recovery process is really important.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Yeah, it's not it's not mechanical. You take your whole life that's subjective to you, and you'll you'll hear echoes and see ripples of fears that overlap with that when you do your exposures. And it's also why social media And it will be evocative.

SPEAKER_04 31:24

That's right. It's also why social media is not therapy. And as much as I think sometimes we want it to be, like that my recovery is gonna be found in the scroll, it can't be because of this. This is one of the reasons why it cannot be, and there's a limit there. Anyway, off my soapbox, get off my lawn. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 31:38

Yeah, it's always welcome. Oh, that's it. Reward yourself with uh for with a trip to the idols.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

I'm gonna go see the idols when they come when they come to my favorite venue. Uh oh right, I'm never gonna live that one down. Fair enough. Let's just play another dude anyway, so I can get out of this pickle. I think you can watch it on the Netflix. It's on the interwebs, I believe. The information superhighway has the idols, don't they? Ah, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Hi guys, Matt from the UK here. Feel free to use my name. Um, been struggling with sort of panic and panic disorder and agrophobia now for about 10 years. Um, kind of flared up really badly again about 18 months ago after a breakup, and for the first time I really had trouble sleeping and sort of having panic attacks at night, and it really just brought the agrophobia back in a big way, but also a different way. Um, I've been really building up my exposures this year, doing lots and lots of things. Um, one of the things to be able to sleep that we'd go out on the bikes every day, and it would just be hell because I'd be having a panic attack in the mountains of Mallorca and stuck on a bike. Um, but I did it anyway, and that's absolutely not what happened. Did I have some uncomfortable moments? Absolutely. Um, first couple of nights I really struggled to sleep and did actually end up taking a diaze pan, but then third and fourth night I didn't, and it felt amazing. Um, I enjoyed the cycles 95% of the time, and on the last day, my brother's legs were so buckled that I went out on my own. Did 120k on my own um out in the mountains a long way from the hotel, and yeah, just come back feeling amazing, feeling really accomplished, but also seeing what you guys uh really preach that ultimately it's not about going and not feeling any anxiety, it's about doing the things that you want and will feel willfully tolerating that anxiety, and you get to decide what recovery looks like at the end of the day. Um, so thank you so much, guys. Really appreciate everything you do, and just keep doing it.

SPEAKER_04 33:35

Wow, they were killing it today. We got Mosh Pitts cycling the mountains of Mallorca. I've seen those cycling videos. That is no insulting citizens and dropping like everybody's really on a warpath today, right? Like that is amazing.

SPEAKER_03 33:50

So good, man. Well, well done. Um, I like how you know you could easily go inwards. Oh, I have to take a diazepam, or I'm doing it wrong. And you're like, no, just keep improving. How did I do today? All right. Well, I'll try not taking a diazepam today. I'll try and do that instead, and whatever. And I love how the compassion was woven into your exposures there. Perfect. Yeah, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? And your brother's just completely keeled over. Like, I cannot physically cycle anymore. And you're like, well, I'll just do uh 120k no problems, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:25

45 degree incline for three three hours straight. Mallorca is no joke. I'm I I like to ride, I'm not a cyclist, but this the cycling videos from Mallorca are beautiful, and like my hats are off to you, brother. Like your brother, the non the non-anxious person is laid up at the hotel. The anxious person is out still pushing it through the climbs. Very impressive, really, really great. Um oh, my micro SD card is almost out of space. Who knew? Oh, that's all right. Luckily, we're recording in multiple places. I know. One of them is this. I'm about to run out of space in my micro SD card on my broadcaster. Um very good job. Should we play one more? What do you think? We got one more. This is a good one, too. Yeah, me too. All right, so let's hear it. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

Hi, my name's Daisy. A few weeks ago I had got a new Pearson. Um, nothing out of the ordinary. I have got so many um over the years. Um, however, since my health anxiety ramped up this time, I had convinced myself that um I was going to be allergic or faint or get a fatal infection. Um, I started to get a little bit red, so I booked a doctor's appointment. However, on the way there, I decided that logically I knew that this was just the healing process, so I called and cancelled the appointment and I went home. So that was a recovery win because I was shaken and very nervous and very afraid, um, even though the rational part of my brain knew that it was just normal, um, and if anything did arise, there would be help over the weekend that I could call someone. Um, so I just wanted to share that.

SPEAKER_03 36:01

A great one as well, with the health anxiety as well. When you're in mid in the midst of a health anxiety episode, and then to have that kind of intuition on the way to the doctors to say, you know what? I'm actually gonna show the brain it's not being helpful here, and I'm gonna go and be with the discomfort and lean into you know the probability. What was the name of the shape? You roll the oh the pentamillion gone. You roll the pentamillion gone, and don't see don't check to see what it lands on because you know the odds are in your favor, and also your rational brain was like, well, if it gets worse, then we'll then we'll do it. But you know, this is uh one thousandth piercing. We've had all of these before. This isn't the one we're suddenly allergic to. And I love how your yeah, your voice, your rational brain, your compassionate voice stepped in there, and that's excellent, well done.

SPEAKER_04 36:55

Yeah, and Daisy was like um what's the word I mean, wide viewed enough to be able to have her rational brain and amygdala working side by side, like in parallel. So, and that was great that she recognized that. I cancel the appointment, I knew I could get help if I needed it, but I was still really anxious, and I know why. Like, I understand why I was still feeling those things, but that's okay. I'll ride through that. Can't ask for more than that.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

No, I think it's absolutely spot on.

SPEAKER_04 37:22

Yeah, really, really good.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

Um you're allowed to have emotions, all of you. You're allowed to anxiety disorders are frustrating. It doesn't tarnish you as a human being. If anything, your bravery, um, to face it, to actually spend a day not seeking relief and uncertainty is is a testament to who you are. You're kind of cultivating other facets of yourself that will only strengthen and get, you know. But if sometimes it makes you teary, irritated, annoyed, that's okay too. You're human. It happens.

SPEAKER_04 37:57

Anyway, great episode. Thanks for hanging out. I guess we're we've said all we can say about this for today. If you guys want to participate in an episode of Disordered with a voicemail or an email, go to disordered.fm and you'll find all our episodes there and ways to get in touch with us. What else can we ask them to do? Leave us cool reviews on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. We've got a lot of them on Spotify. We didn't really recognize Josh points.

SPEAKER_03 38:17

Yeah, we want to say thank you for that. That was lovely. It was really overwhelming when we saw that.

SPEAKER_04 38:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

And uh yeah, no, thank you. And uh follow us on in on social media if you if you don't. I'm anxiety Josh, Drew is the dot anxious.truth. And yeah, we will catch you soon.

SPEAKER_04 38:33

Yeah, we'll see you next week. We're out.