Measuring Anxiety Disorder Recovery (Episode 87)

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hey guys, my name's Nick. I'm a photographer/slash book influencer up here in Canada. That's a really weird title, I know. I firstly just want to thank you guys for doing this podcast. I just discovered it a few months ago and have found it so helpful. So thank you for doing this every week. It's very kind of you. Or my ask is what you would recommend to somebody who consistently does it anyway, but doesn't really feel any progress. And for some backstorming, I said I'm a photographer and I primarily shoot weddings. And so it's kind of an insane job to have as someone with a lot of panic and anxiety because every weekend I'm thrown into a room with sometimes hundreds of people, and everybody's looking at me to kind of guide them, and I'm also trying to create the best photos I can every weekend, so it is a lot of pressure. But I've been doing this for about 10 years now, and the first seven or eight years were fantastic. You know, I never experienced any anxiety or a panic, just had a great time. Had my first panic attack about three years ago, and ever since I have been dealing with it on a weekly basis. I've been doing it anyway, every weekend. Some weekends are really, really tough, some aren't quite as bad. But yeah, I guess I just am wondering what you would recommend to someone who is doing it anyway, but not feeling any progress, and what you might recommend to help kind of move things forward for me. Um, you can use my name, that's totally fine. Thanks again, guys. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 87 of the podcast. Today we're talking about how to measure anxiety disorder recovery. I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist practicing under supervision, specializing in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York, in the U.S. of A. I am a former sufferer of things like panic disorder and agoraphobia for many years of my life on and off, an author, social media dude, educator, advocate, co-host of this wine podcast, and we're back to do it again, like we are every week. Who's sitting next to me?

SPEAKER_02 1:58

I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, psychotherapist based in the UK, specializing in anxiety, anxiety disorders, previous sufferer, social media prancer around her author. Um, and what's my fun fact this week? I'm currently wearing a green t-shirt.

SPEAKER_03 2:16

It matches the walls in your office a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Yeah, I'm going for Forest Green. Everything's foresty. Uh, we're also joined today by Strudel, so apologies if you hear him barking. Um, every time he someone walks past the office, he feels the need to inform me and everyone in the building.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

He's uh he's keeping everybody safe. It's all good. Um, good question from Nick, by the way. Uh I'll give Nick a little plug. If you like to read, check out Books Are Sick. If you Google Books Are Sick, you will find Nick. He's a cool reading dude. Um, and it was a great question that leads to our topic today. Do we have something else from the community that you wanted to read that feeds into this?

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Yeah, similar question as well that's come up. So obviously today's title is you know, how do we measure anxious recovery? How do we do that? You know, Nick saying, you know, I'm doing it anyway, but you know, I still feel anxious. Uh, this question was sent in from Stu. He says, Hi, Josh and Drew. My name's Stuart, and I've suffered with anxiety for countless years now. I've had multiple therapists and never really got away from the shadow of anxiety. I would say I'm pure old. My obsessions are all thought related, and I subscribe to the idea that avoidance is no good. I definitely follow your advice regarding doing it anyway, and this weekend done something that I definitely didn't want to do, and honestly, it was tough. So, what happens when you do it anyway? But it creates more questions than answers. I feel like it just made me worse. Hope to hear a response. Well, you were gonna get a response today, Stu, in the form of an episode. So there we go.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

Well, thank you to Nick and Stu for making us think about this. So, what do you think? What's what's the broad brush on this? How would you measure it? How did you measure your own recovery?

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Uh, in a nutshell, um, I mean, I didn't do this straight away. It was a it was a process that that took a long time, but recovery is how good am I at feeling anxious? And I think what these two people are saying here is that I'm doing the tough thing, but am I techniquing it and am I checking and on a score of is my anxiety gone yet? You know, I did the hard thing, is it all gone away yet? Whereas if you take into account the attitude shift, the constant willingness, the will for tolerance of uncertainty, that's how we measure it. So for me, it was like how little I cared that anxiety was there. Whereas what I'm hearing from these guys is like, yeah, really brave and courageous. Well done, guys, you know, well done for doing it anyway, but you still really care. I'm still checking it, and now it has my attention. Uh, in the case of Stu, it might be you know, he says he's got pure row, so okay, you did the hard thing, but then what are you doing during and after the hard thing? Are you going inwards? Are you ruminating? Are you techniqueifying? Are you trying to you know quantify and the what is the instrument that I use to measure recovery here? Well, I'm still anxious, so obviously that thing I did didn't work, and you're using the wrong formula. So I'd say is even when you're not doing the tricky thing and you're sad at home, that's where the principles still apply. I fell into that trap. Like I went to the supermarket, didn't like it, I came home and I'm anxious. So what's the point? I did I did the scary thing and I'm still scared at home because at home's still the exposure as well. I'm giving it all my attention. I don't know, what do you think?

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Yeah, I I pretty much agree with everything you said. And and I think this is so common, I think, whether it's you know, clients that I work with or with just the community around the podcast. I think everybody goes through this. This is a natural thing. You did it, I did it. I can echo that sentiment. For a while, I was I was thinking that when I was going out and doing my exposures every morning, that I would be not feeling so anxious. It took me a while to really embrace the idea that I had to measure recovery by how impactful the anxiety was. Like, no, it's gonna be there. That's what I'm going to do is practice being anxious. The impact of it started to drop. And then it started to lessen. But I think everybody goes through that. I'm doing the things, I do the things, I don't avoid, and that's awesome. You have to take that step. But sometimes I think we we kind of do the, but I'm gonna go do the things and hopefully it won't feel so bad. But then I do, and then I think I'm not doing it right. And but how come it's still there? Because I'm doing the things to get rid of it, and they're just not aiming at the right target when they do the things. But doing the things does count, you get full credit for that. It's just sometimes you have to adjust, well, what why am I doing the things?

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Why am I doing that? I I had to take a guess as well here. Like if I'm going to work as a wedding photographer during the day, I've probably got natural anxiety. You know, I want to take good photos, everyone looks brilliant, capture the right moment of disdain from the partner's family. Um, you know, these kind of things. Uh and it's like okay, during that I'm immersed, and I would wager that you are less anxious, as in less of the disordered anxiety. But when you have a moment to yourself, when you go home and you've got all your thoughts to yourself, you're not engaged with something, I think it's this ruminative hyper-analysis and hyper focus of how you feel. And then you're thinking, well, hold on, I I managed to go to work today. Well, then noticed how you felt at work, and how much attention did you give to it at work and how much attention did you give to it at home? And I'm gonna guess with both of the questions send her in have you noticed that it's an attention problem when you are not doing much, you know, I'm now giving this more attention. So when Stu says, you know, it creates more questions than answers, and it feels like it's maybe worse, yeah. You probably made yourself frightened, and then you come back and start and entered a ruminative state. So you're probably giving it more attention at home when you're not doing the did it anyway. So I would suggest do your did it anyway is I sat at home and allowed the thoughts and uncertainty to be there, but practice with my attention outside of me or anything but rumination.

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Important. I think sometimes that attention might be driven by, you know, I I mean, I'm a big act fan, you know that. Like we're we measure, we do measure in a way, we can actually measure that, we have assessments for that. But like, what is your level of psychological flexibility, which is really how willing am I to be in any context and work with it? So I think it's really hard for people to say, okay, well, I'll move my, you know, I hear them talk about attention all the time. Well, let me move my attention to something else, even though my brain wants me to ruminate to feel better. But I but but I don't want to do that. I feel like I got to go back to ruminating because I'm only deeming one state acceptable, which is I'm feeling anxious and uncomfortable. That's not acceptable. I'm not flexible, I don't want that. And it's I'm only okay if I can get to a calmer or easier state. So, in a way, practicing letting the uncomfortable thing be there has to be part of that equation. You're not going to be able to move your attention around to other things if you're not willing to be in that state, also.

SPEAKER_02 9:20

So Yeah, it's also how good can you being anxious at home? Yeah. So it's like you're you're measuring your progress on what you did in the did it anyway. The did it anyway doesn't stop. So I change it and be like, How good are you at being anxious at home? Yeah, you know, and that's that's where I'd shift it for that anyway.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

Um, that's good because like for Stu, the event is over. The event physically might be over, but the did it anyway is not. The challenge is still there.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it depends. And I mean, to answer, you know, that how do you measure anxious recovery? Yeah, it's like how good at you at being anxious? Well, actually, at work, I did the tricky thing, or I did the tricky thing. Brilliant. You're really good at being anxious, doing the tricky thing, going to the event, going at work, but you don't seem to be good at being very anxious at home because we go inwards. So that's what we need to look at.

SPEAKER_04 10:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

You know, it's not how you can perform in the outside world or to appear normal or things like that. No, it's you and your and this applies to me too. Like, I used to like go home and have like, no, I'll go home, analyze, back to the drawing board, let's fix this. How did things did how did today go? Whatever. And don't get me wrong, it's okay to reflect on that. But when I'm doing it for hours and hours and time's gone by and I've missed my favorite TV show and I've cancelled an event because I'm trying to fix myself, then I'm not being very good at being anxious at home.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

Yeah. And I think one of those ways to measure that also, if you take that into account, like what happens after the event, if if your thinking is dominated by the word but, like, well, I just showed my first of all, I was if my my three C's, you were courageous, you went and did the hard thing, right? Cool. You were competent, you did the hard thing, but then instead of like patting yourself on the back, it's yeah, but yeah, but right? Like if your thing is dominated by butt, we got a problem. Yeah, I'm just laughing at the word butt. But your butt. We've devolved into beavers and butthead within minutes. Yeah, the key here is butt. But watch out for your butt, watch out for your butt. He said butt. If you say but a lot, first of all, you'll make us giggle like 11-year-olds, but also I think that's an indicator because like and you know this as you work with your clients too. Like often in the beginning of the process, it's you know, it's a lot to just do the thing, and that's fine. That's the first step. And then after it's over, as the helper, you know, I'm I'm all in the debrief. It's like, wow, you did it. That was really awesome. Pat yourself on the back, but the person is stuck on, yeah, but it felt it was really hard, but I was really anxious. But but but but but and they throw part throw away the part where they showed their competency and their ability to handle that state. But the next thing. Yeah, but but but you know, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

I've worked with uh sometimes when I work with people with agrophobia or agoraphobia. Agoraphobia. Um, it's uh sometimes we don't do exposures outside, sometimes we work on getting it right inside. Yeah, it's a good place to start. Yeah, if you can stop being anxious in your safe space and learn to live with that, then we can apply those principles outside too. Sometimes agrophobia isn't just walk out. Sometimes I'm like, no, you have a rumination hyperfixation problem inside your house. And yes, okay, if you feel up to it, go for a walk, go around the block, go to the shops, etc. But actually, a lot of the problem with anxiety disorders, particularly if you're a ruminator, and please listen to our ruminator episode. There's some excellent editing skills from Drew in there. Um it's uh if you're a ruminator inside, don't expect you know, walking down the street, if you're an agrophobic, to fix all your problems because you're going back inside and ruminating again. So don't get me don't get me wrong, you've signaled to the brain, hey, outside, nothing bad happened. So you have done some good re brain rewiring. Um, but ultimately I would guess, and particularly with the questions, and particularly when people are struggling to measure their anxious recovery, anxious recovery is like, I don't really care. And I'm learning to kind of turn my back on this, is ruminating about that turning my back on it. No, it's giving it full, full frontal attention.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

Ooh, the full, the full Monty of attention is what you got there. And yeah, that's true. And I it's like often the first homework I'll give people that are dealing with that sort of thing is like show me all the things that you do from the minute you wake up to manage your your anxiety, to manage your state. Forget going out the door, forget driving, forget, forget what happens when you have a panic attack. Tell me all the things that you have to do from the minute you wake up to make sure you're you're you're good. Like that's a really good place to start, I think. But it also, again, when you come back into your rest place or the after the event thing, how much time are you spending? Or are you going back to that place knowing that, okay, this is this is where I now don't be anxious. So I got it over with. Now I go home and the anxiety goes away, right? Like, or whatever, home, you leave the event, it doesn't matter where it is for you. This is where I feel better, right? Like, oh yeah, that's also an indicator that you're resisting a bit or a lot.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Yes. And did it anyway is not a technique. Oh, that's really good. Good quote. Yeah, it's not a uh oh yeah. Well, I'm hearing all these people on on disorder, you know, doing all these did it anyways, and they seem to be doing really well. Well, if I do that technique, then my anxiety will go away. I've done loads of did it anyways today. Well done. Yeah, but what are you doing in between these did it anyways? Keep going. You know, I'm anxious. Uh my brain wants me to go inwards, ruminate, google, seek reassurance, avoid. But actually, I'm gonna just watch my favorite TV show. Yeah. What? Whilst feeling anxious and all this urgency? Yeah, I'm gonna do it anyway. How could that be? Right? Yeah, yeah. You can't do that. You have to fix this now. This is irresponsible. Come on, get to the bottom of it. You work everything out. Let's work this out. Nothing to work out. You're giving it attention, yeah, and it thinks it's being important.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

In a way, you know, and we're from a again, go back to measurement. Like, how much time do I spend using the word butt, you know, raising objections to what I just did? But how do you measure your butt? How do you measure your butt, you know? And then really, it's how willing am I to accept that this is my reality today? I am an anxious person. I am dealing with chronic or disordered anxiety, I'm working on it, but it's here, it's in my life today. And if you're still fighting that and trying to find a way instantly to change that, then that's also so it's not only a measure of how do you measure it when your anxiety level is coming down, how do you measure the change in your attitude, which is shown in the change in your behavior? So look at the way your life is different today than it may have been three months ago. If three months ago you were really, really struggling to go and shoot a wedding, for instance, in Nick's case, and then it's getting easier and easier, even though the anxiety isn't going down. There you go. You have a measurement of some progress. It's just not where you want to be. I like to use the moon mission thing. When we landed people on the moon, very American thing to do, by the way, when we did that, they had to, and anybody who's ever shot anything into space, they didn't go from zero to the moon directly. They took there was 11 missions to get there, 12, you know, 10, 11 that worked to get there. And they every time, well, now we're testing this, now we're testing this, now we're practicing this. At the end of Apollo 7, did they stop and say, oh, we're not at the moon yet? This isn't working. No, because they knew that they were making incremental progress toward the moon. That's what you're doing too. Do not like, do not discard the progress that you are making because you just didn't get to the end goal yet.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Yeah, that's true. It's also very American to land on the moon and then doubt it ever happened. That is we're that is the most American thing ever. I literally land on the moon and then create a conspiracy that we never landed on the moon. Okay. That's the most American thing ever. Because this is the way that's the same. Where's the noise? Do you have the noise?

SPEAKER_03 17:13

I don't have wait, I do. I think I put it in there, and it definitely needs to be played right now for sure. Where is it? Sorry, guys. No, here it comes. The red tail hawk named Eagle. But we could do that. It it's this is our national. We are brave risk takers, independent mavericks, so we land on the move, but we are independent mavericks so that we then decide to invent conspiracy theories that identify that identify us as independent, brave-thinking individual mavericks. Like you can't have both. That's what got us to the moon. So we'll do an episode on that one day because the the psychological aspect of that stuff fascinates me. But anyway, that's welcome to episode 1605, where we're really out of stuff, but now we're gonna talk about conspiracy theoretic theories. I would tune in for that. I would I never listen to our episodes. I would listen to that one after we recorded. But um, what were we talking about?

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Oh, we're talking about uh it's a quote I've said before though, like recovery is not anxious recovery, is not measured. No, anxious recovery is measured by your willingness to tolerate its presence, not the accumulation of its absence. That's correct. Oh, I've not been anxious for four days. I must be doing well. Hell no. I've been anxious for four days, and you know what? I've noticed it coming down because I've been willing to tolerate it. It's still there, but who cares? That's what my hotmark is. That's anxious recovery. It is not measured by the accumulation of its absence, it is measured on how willing you are to be with it. So, even with those questions, it's like I was willing to be with it during the tough stuff. Brilliant. Build on that, guys. But also, how are you willing to be with it in the shower? Are you willing to be with it lying in bed? Are you willing to be with it, you know, going for a walk? Oh no, I wanted to do it anyway to take that away from here. Hell no. You know, we keep doing it there. So build on the great stuff you've done, you know?

SPEAKER_03 19:10

It's I think you also measure it too on the this is very meta, but you know that you are recovering when you stop asking so much if you are recovering. Because it doesn't matter. You start to the experience begins and the attitude change and all the things we're talking about starts to add up to. I don't have to ask that question. It's not imperative that I change my state on demand all the time. I can handle any state. And then you stop asking so much, am I recovered? Did I do it right? Is this okay? Is it working? Because you know you don't need it to work. So that's very meta. Ask yourself how often you are evaluating your recovery, the less you do that. That's a good measure that you are in fact recovering. Weird, right? Yeah, yeah. Makes no sense. So much of this makes no sense. A lot of meta stuff, a lot of power.

SPEAKER_02 19:53

You can go met so we just make it simple. What's anxious recovery? Oh, I'm anxious, don't care. Or like Drew says, the gap between, oh my God, to oh well.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

Yeah, yeah. Which you only get, let's clarify that because I think people get stuck in that. So at least my people get stuck on that. You can't just decide to not care. It's okay to care. You really care today. It's okay. You can only learn through these experiences that you don't have to care as much over time. Yeah, you can't just decide to not care to be anxious. It's okay to care, but you got to act even though you care. Sorry, that's the deal.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

Yeah, but also it is measured by if you care or not. So the other day I was feeling DPDR, derealization. Yeah. I don't like it, but I didn't really care that it was there.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

Well, because you you've done all the practice, you took the risk, the initial risk. Like, no, I really care. This scares the hell out of me. Oh, I had the same thing. I struggled with anything. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Only willing to be scared with it. I was willing to take the risk that I was, in fact, going to disintegrate. And again, I'm never going to be able to describe what that really means, but that was my fear with DPDR. I'm going to have to let it happen, which was terrifying. And then I learned over time, oh, I don't have to care as much. And I cared less and less until I don't now I don't care. So you can't just that neither of us just decided, I don't, I don't care. I don't care.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

So many many moons ago we used to speak about that, like, oh, I've got DPDR. What if I slip away? Oh, I'm gonna go make a sandwich. Yeah. It's like that was like because I'm not ruminated. It's like, what? And your and your anxious brain, it's almost like trolling your anxious brain. Your anxious brain wants you to take this seriously, it wants you to give it all of your attention, and you're like, I'm just gonna make a sandwich. Yeah, how is that gonna solve anything? You're not even hungry, you feel sick. Well, I'm gonna eat it as well, right? It's gonna help might be good. Yeah, it might be good. Yeah, you know, those kind of things, that willingness, that flexibility is recovery as well. When we are frightened, we have that flexibility of choice and attention. Yeah, you know you're in the midst of it where you feel like the only thing you can do is ruminate and problem solve and fixate on how you feel when actually anxious recovery is okay, I still feel the same level of fear. But I've got because of practice and because of these things, I feel more flexible now.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

I have options.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

I see other options. So rather than running to Reddit or seeking reassurance or doing all these things, I'm just gonna dance. Why would you do that? Because I like trolling my amygdala and telling it I'm safe.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

Can right because I because I can, because I yeah, and it's it's so tomorrow. Can can? Sorry. Oh, ouch. We have a lot of dance themes on Disordered. They they weave in and out. Every once in a while, dance does come up here. I I can't dance. Nobody wants to see me dance.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

I mean, you might be a great dancer, I don't know that, but I gotta say, I need a few wines in me before you watch me dance. Um, that is a safety behavior for everyone.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

If you need an avoidance behavior, avert your eyes when Josh gets to his third wine because he's about to dance.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

It doesn't help when I'm wearing a manchini and nothing else either.

SPEAKER_03 22:50

But that that willingness to, like, okay, uh, any tips for somebody who is doing it anyway, but doesn't seem to be progressing. How willing are you to examine different options? Because again, a really anxious person in the thick of it has one option, fix it. Then over time you begin to develop a lot of different options. Tomorrow we're gonna record with Russ Harris. We're gonna do an act episode with, you know, he right? Yeah, we got Russ Harris all about that. Like he simplifies the act, he makes it a triflex. It's like, get present, open up, do what matters. That's his that's the way he simplified it. Like, open up, which is try different things and see different options.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

Russ Harris on Disorders, it'd be next episode as well, I presume.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

Um, I think no, it'll yeah, it'll be next episode after this one. That's correct.

SPEAKER_02 23:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Even though we are ahead recording.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

People are listening, Drew. You know, that's not us, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

They're not in real time with us, that's true. Oh, fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Um, but how did you measure your talk me through the timeline of you measuring your anxious recovery? So at the start, midway through, where you're out now.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Um, first it started like everybody does. I need to fix this, I want to fix this. Even though technically I did already have a grip on the principles, I was a little bit ahead of the game, but I refused to apply them. I knew I had to do the things, I knew that was the way, but I was really trying to do the things to try to learn how to do them without being anxious. So that was the first part of it. And then I had to come to the harsh reality that, like, no, no, my job was to practice being anxious. I hated that, but that was my reality, so I had to do it. And then I think I started seeing progress when the presence of the anxiety became less and less impactful. And then that that opened up a lot of different behavioral options. So my drives became longer. I was more willing to get in the car. I started to do little errands close to the house that I would refuse to do. Like, that's how I started to know, like, oh, yeah, change is actually happening. Not fast enough for me. I was very impatient. But at the same time, that was really the measure. And then I noticed that, like, yeah, I would have other things that still fit really scary and it was hard to do them, but I would be able to start accelerating in my recovery because I used to think I have to learn how to do everything again. Not really. I had to learn how to do one thing, and then it started generalizing. That was also a good measure for me. Like, ooh, this thing that I thought was gonna be so hard wasn't as hard as I thought. It was challenging, but like, ooh, maybe that maybe the lessons I learned two months ago are are are coming with me here. That was another good measure for me. And then after a while, it's just like, yeah, I'm gonna go to this thing and I'm probably gonna panic. And then I wouldn't because I was ready to panic. And that's how I knew things were things were going. I was winning the war. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for sharing that, my man.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Um, here's a question that kind of popped into my head, and it's really interesting. Uh, and we did uh an old episode on this go back. Um, you know, resensitized, desensitized. Becoming resensitized doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. You can still be a recur. I knew you'd do that.

SPEAKER_03 25:47

I thought I turned them all off.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Yeah. Uh becoming res becoming resensitized um is not a sign that you're failing. Sometimes we can just become re-resensitized because we're stressed, etc. Uh, but suddenly we you know we start fearing and misinterpreting fear again. You can still be recovered when you're resensitized. It's just how quickly can you get to becoming desensitized again by applying the principle? I fell short because when I became resensitized, I don't even use the word relapse. I use those like I've relapsed. No, no, I'm just resensitized. Relapse has a punchy, condemning word to it. Whereas like, I'm just resensitized again.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

I need to be desensitized. Did you find that it changed? Was that a measure for you? Like when it would appear again, because it's gonna in everybody's life, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Oh, I was measuring like I was doing something wrong, failing, went straight back into resource gathering compulsions. Yeah, have I missed something? I thought I got it right, but I didn't, ruminating on it, things like that. And then the safety and avoidance behaviors came in, and then I justify the safety behaviors and avoiding, oh, I'll go back to it once I've worked out and I feel better. Classic stuff. I mean, I'm glad it happened because I learned more from it, but like, yeah, that re that was when I was just resensitized. You know, and obviously my brain was like, what if it's anxiety and something else? Yeah, and then you've got all the doubt and all that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 27:14

And I was like, this is just the same thing, isn't it? And then after a while, you do get bored with it. Uh I used to have a this guy would chime in on me. It's Craig the critic. Oh, yeah, he would for me as well. Oh man, when because I would be doing, like, okay, I was starting to see those changes, and I was getting my life back, and everything seemed like it was going so great. And then I might have a tough few days that felt like the old days. And for me, it wasn't, I don't know if it was so much like, oh no, it came back. Like, fear of it, it was frustration and a little bit of self-criticism. Like, you figured this out. Remember, you're the guy that figures stuff out. You run shit over, you solve problems.

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Exactly. When I became resensitized, yeah. But we got our measuring of anxiety recovery wrong. Oh, totally. I would because because it we look with Craig the Cricket, I keep saying Craig the Cricket, like some kind of like Disney character, you know, like he's back, and uh he's very cute, but he's very critical.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

That's that's the you know, yeah, but also Craig Craig the Cricket Cricket, uh rebranding.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Um Craig the Critic actually has such a big role in in anxiety recovery and preventing it because he attacks the willingness to be with it. How dare you? You you were over anxiety, now you've got to go and fix this. Look, you've messed this up. Yeah, and actually, what have you lost? The willingness to be uncertain, the willingness to be anxious. Because not only do you scared of it, you're also listening to this horrible internal critic pushing you and pressuring you into fixing this problem. Except there's nothing to fix, you know, it's but whatever. No, practicing the willful tolerance of uncertainty, even with a fierce internal critic.

SPEAKER_03 28:58

Yeah, it was a big deal. And that again, re repetitions, repetitions, willing to be a little more open, willing to take some chances, that changed so that I don't get that anymore. Like if I have an anxious day now, it's I it's probably because I'm just stressed. Like it's I don't even think of it as it's interesting. How do you measure anxiety recovery or anxiety disorder recovery when you start to see anxiety as stress and not anxiety? One of the things I have to tell people all the time when we work together is you know, not all anxiety is disordered anxiety, and I can see that now in my own life. This isn't disordered anxiety, this is just I'm stressed, like there's a lot of shit happening, and like I feel it. Yeah, I'm I'm I'm stressed and anxious about something at work at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah, you know, like that that's it, it's human stuff, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 29:37

Yeah, it when you stop thinking of every anxious moment as a problem to solve or in relation to recovery, air quotes, that's also a good measure that you're you're getting better. Because, like, oh no, this is just there's a lot going on, and I gotta take care of myself. And you go to bed early tonight, whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_02 29:51

This is why we always smile at like the the emails we get, you know, like guys, love you, you've been so great, we really appreciate it. But I've stopped listening to you because I don't need it anymore. Those are the best. That's it. Yeah, that's it. Anxious recovery is when you stop making your life anxiety and recovery the center of your life. Uh says the two guys that do podcasts and social media about it.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Literally reinvented my entire life to make anxiety my entire personality as a therapist.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

When anxiety recovery is not the center of your life, is also a good measure of uh anxious recovery.

SPEAKER_03 30:27

Really funny. We have some some things to share. We're about 30 minutes in. What do you think? Should we go to the community and hear some wins?

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Yeah, well, there's two options. Anxious recovery, you know, the principles of this podcast listening through. Or if you want to shortcut all that, you we are now selling disordered label magnesium CBD gummies. Yes. So if you would like to order those, take one and you're completely free of anxiety. There we are. You can buy them. They're inside page three of my latest book.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

Go and get it under you'll also find a coupon for our 10-day mastermind. It's only $10,000, but for you guys, we'll sell it for $8,000. Three simple tricks. That's exactly right, because we like you so much. Three simple tricks to banish anxiety for never panic again. Come to the mastermind. I'm telling you, it's a good eight thousand dollars spent. We're kidding.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

You've been pulling on your ear the wrong way.

SPEAKER_03 31:17

This way. Yeah. One day we are gonna do that episode. We keep threatening to do it. That's kind of like the disordered after dark. I'm gonna open the bourbon that's behind me and every one of these.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Completely unhinged rants. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

We might have to make that a private episode. We'll see.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

We can do disordered after dark, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I can buy tickets to that and just watch it's random.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Enough of our naval gazing. What's the community stuff? Uh we got some did it anyways, haven't we? We do. You wanna you got one to read? I got one to play, got one to read. Yeah, yeah, I've got one here. I've got one to read. Okay, it says, Hi guys, please don't share my name. Okay. I wanted to write in and share a did it anyway story. I just found your podcast after embarrassingly hours and hours of doom scrolling on Reddit, trying to make sense of my anxiety and panic. That's really funny because I'm always saying to clients, get off Reddit. But then a lot of people find us on Reddit, so it's kind of nice. I've had anxiety my whole life, but when my father unexpectedly passed away in May, I hit a level I didn't know existed. Panic attacks for the first time in my life, agrophobia, and so many physical symptoms of anxiety. I was the type to go for a walk every day, go out to dinner, love going to Target and home goods, couldn't do any of those things. I would feel so faint and dizzy that I feared actually passing out in public, even though I never did. I did it all anyway. Once at dinner, I thought I felt I was on the verge of death, literally, and almost convinced my fiance to drive me to the emergency room. We didn't go, but I did continue pushing, doing things as part of my routine, and that I knew I typically enjoyed doing. I just recently found your podcast and felt an overwhelming sense of pride that I did it anyway, and I wanted to reach out and share my story for others who also may be suffering. Your podcast has helped pull me out of a place that I felt I was never going to escape. Grief took my anxiety to the worst place, but doing it anyway brought me almost completely back to the less anxious version of myself. That's a good one, though.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

That's good news out of bad news, you know? A big loss. And finding a way to work through it, partially by doing it anyway. Good job.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Really good. Nice though. And thanks for sharing that with us. Uh big smile on my face with that one.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Uh do you have one? I have two. I have an audio, so how about we do an audio and then we'll wrap up with a one I'll read. So let's do it. Okay, here we go.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name is Nev. You can use my name. I'm here in Dublin, Ireland, and I wanted to share a win with you guys. Um, back in 2021, I had my first OCD episode, uh, triggered by the pandemic. You know, just too much time by myself, uh, too much time to think, essentially. Um, my themes were around relationship OCD and moral scrupulosity, uh, despite being in a very healthy and happy long-term relationship. I went to ERP therapy for a year and thought I was quote unquote cured after that until last year, 2023. Um, my partner and I got engaged. Um, so I kind of noticed any major life events, whether it's a pandemic or an engagement, happy or sad, um, can kind of trigger my OCD. Uh I went back to therapy for a few months and I listened to your podcast. I found your episode on rumination so helpful. And I got married and we had an amazing wedding day. But the thing I was actually most nervous about was our honeymoon because it was two weeks, no distractions, no work, a lot of time to think, essentially. We were just relaxing by a beach. Um, and I was really worried that OCD would ruin my holiday, ruin my honeymoon, um, because there can often be a lot of pressure to have this amazing um honeymoon. And I actually ended up having a great time. The thoughts were there sometimes, and I just let them be there. Um, and by the end of the honeymoon, I was so relaxed. Um, we had an amazing time together, and I just want to thank you so much for all of the work you do, it's so helpful.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Yeah, well done. Well done. That's brilliant. Brilliant. That willingness for it to be there, let the thoughts be there. Enjoy your honeymoon and congratulations on uh your wedding as well.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

This speaks a little bit to like how do you know how do you measure recovery? You've learned that like, ooh, even good stress can trigger this, but I now I know what it is. Now now I can respond instead of going into oh no and like backpedaling for two months. I learned I learned that that can happen and now I know how to deal with it. Good measure.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

The OCD people, you know, when when you receive feel pressure, yeah, that's when could happen. You know, the the the threat response and and Craig the critic uh get louder, and you're like, well, I expect you to get louder. It's okay. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 36:13

Anyway, thank you, Nee, for sending that in. I we have one more, we'll read it and then we'll sort of wrap it up. So here's another did it anyway. Hi, Josh and Drew. I'm Erin. Yes, you can use my name. Hi, Erin. And I'm writing all the way from Virginia in the US of A. She's from Virginia, and she said Josh first. Erin, I'm disappointed. Um Aaron, you're the best. Oh, I know. Aaron Fan Club. Anyway, I've had anxiety and OCD my whole life, but this year has been particularly challenging. My stress jug overflowed while working full time and getting my master's full time paired with some PTSD and not feeling my feelings. I had my first panic attack ever in April. That happened at work. I thought I was dying and all the good stuff that comes with it. I ended up taking time uh off work via the Family and Medical Leave Act, and sometimes still use it. But since then, I've spent a lot of time relearning to do things non-anxious Erin would do. This weekend was huge for me. Here comes the good stuff. My fiance and I went to his best friend's wedding. He was the best man, and I was just a regular guest at the wedding. It was a six-hour drive away in North Carolina. I was super anxious leading up to the trip. My anxiety was telling me how I'd need to find the closest hospital in case of X, Y, or Z, telling me I couldn't possibly sit in an Airbnb in the mountains by myself and drive myself to the venue after being alone all day without my safe person. But the day came. I drove my fiance to the venue and spent all day by myself and enjoyed it. I went to the wedding, and when the ceremony started, all of my all my anxiety did was make me feel dizzy, etc., screaming at me to get up and run off. But I did it all anyway. I did what not anxious Erin would do, and I end up dancing the whole night. Thank you both for all you do. Your work helps us all in the community. Feel hope and power in doing it anyway. Sorry this was so long. Erin, no problem. You get applause. Yeah. Hmm, dancing the night away. More dancing.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

More dancing. More dancing. You know, your threat response said you you can't, but your dancing suggested that you can can.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

We are totally changing this through a dance podcast. This is our last anxiety and mental health episode where from now on we're dancing, all dancing all the time on disorder.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

Yeah, those so good. There's so many things that your threat response wanted you to do, all the safety behaviors. And you're just like, nah, do what non-anxious Erin does. And well done. That's so good.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

Very good. Well, thanks everybody for sending in your wins, your questions, helping us figure out what topics to talk about. You influence most of what we talk about here, if not all. So that's really helpful to us. Should we wrap it up?

SPEAKER_02 38:40

Yeah. Um, where can people um submit audio questions and emails and things?

SPEAKER_03 38:46

They should go to disordered.fm, which is a very fancy web address.fm. Go to disordered.fm. You could send us email, you could send us voicemails, and you can get on the disordered mailing list, which we rarely use, but we do use them to announce our disordered roundtable sessions. There's one coming up in a few weeks. Uh what's the topic? What's our next one? This one is fear of anxiety, which is happening near the end of November. Fear of insanity. I'm sorry, fear. You know, when I've been typing it up, I keep writing fear of anxiety too. It's fear of an fear of insanity.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Ah, so it's the it's a round table where we're discussing, you know, people whose anxiety with it manifests as what if I go crazy and lose controls.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

That is that. So get on the mailing list there, and what else can we ask you to do? We can ask you to leave ratings and reviews of the podcast wherever you happen to be listening, because that always helps us and it helps other people find it, which is cool.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

And yeah, and and just to thank you. Thanks for tuning in. Thanks for being part of the community, thanks for sharing parts of yourself, and yeah, we'll catch you every Friday. Uh next Friday we'll be with uh Russ Harris, which I'm very excited for. It's gonna be great. We'll see you then. Thanks for listening.