Listener Questions About Anxiety & Recovery (Episode 114)

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Hi Drew and Josh, longtime listener, who really appreciates the work you both do and the advice you give. It's enjoyable and lighthearted, while being very valuable. Anyway, I wanted to share a huge did it anyway, and then ask a follow-up question if you have a minute to answer it. I've been dealing with anxiety on and off for a little over three years now, and have not flown alone since 2014, and not slept in a hotel room alone since 2018. I had the opportunity to go on a work trip for two nights last month. I had quite a bit of anticipatory anxiety prior to the trip, but arriving at the airport, that anxiety lessened quite a bit. It lessened even more on the plane, though it didn't go away completely, so I just handled the feelings, didn't distract myself from what I was actually feeling. Got to DC, made my way around the city, saw a few sights alone, which was quite enjoyable as well. I actually thought I'd panicked in those situations, but I didn't. The hotel I stayed at was beautiful and actually quite comfortable, and I wouldn't have minded staying another couple of nights. The work conference was actually a lot of fun. I got to see a lot of people I hadn't seen in a long time, and we had we actually had a great time. I walked around the city again after the work conference and enjoyed my time alone, as I said earlier. The flight home was uneventful, and when I got picked up by my wife at the airport, I was literally in tears of happiness for what I had just accomplished. And to top it all off, I spent the next six days and nights at my daughter's watching my grandchildren while she and my son-in-law went on their 40th birthday trip. That was another huge win. Now my question, is it usual to have a slight letdown after major wins like this? Thanks guys for letting me share. Greatly appreciated. Keep up the good work.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 114. Um we're gonna listen, uh, we're gonna answer some uh listener questions. Uh big thank you to Sean for sending that in. Uh, I'm Josh Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist who's the co-host of this podcast. Um you know all my stuff by now.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

Yeah, I feel like they really do. Uh, after 114 episodes, I'm Drew Linsalata, the guy with the other microphone on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, the other co-host of Disordered, same thing, therapist specializing in treating anxiety disorders, went through all these problems like you guys did, and wrote some books and all that stuff. So go to disorder.fm. You could read about us there. How's that?

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Yeah, Sean, well done, Sean. That was amazing. Great.

SPEAKER_04 2:28

That was like a Billy Mays moment. He just kept doing stuff too. I'm not done yet.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

Yeah, well done. Uh, two-day trip on his own, gets the credit, does those things, tears of of joy and pride. Uh, and then the question when he gets back is is it normal to have a letdown? What do you think he means by that?

SPEAKER_04 2:48

Um, I think, well, it's hard to know what anybody specifically means because we can't be in Sean's head, but yeah, I think it is kind of you know normal because sometimes it feels like after you do the hard thing, like you're on this big high, it's a big rush, and you have that big shot of like motivation and excitement, and then that goes away because all feelings go away. And then now what do we do? And now it seems like you should be on this big, like, oh, I can keep rolling and I'm gonna get better and I'm finally gonna recover. And then it then you're like Tuesday happens and there's nothing to do, and you gotta get motivated again. So yeah, I think it's really normal to do that.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Yeah, I think that's normal, Sean. And you you can't uh what I get from that question is though that you don't need to focus and go inwards, like you've done the amazing thing. That doesn't necessarily mean you're just gonna feel euphoria forever now. No, you you're just accessing your normal life, and to be honest, it's probably been exhausting the amount of adrenaline, cortisol, uh, and the energy, the emotions of it all. Um, you had a work trip as well, so you've been socializing for days, flying, organizing, uh traveling, etc. You're probably gonna feel a bit low because guess what? Probably tired, mate.

SPEAKER_04 3:58

Oh, that's a good point. Like that fatigue is a thing. Yeah, like you kind of crash a little bit, that's normal.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Yeah, exactly. I've had a you know, like anything. Like I remember going to Glastonbury a couple of years ago, and the three days afterwards, I'm like just empty because I'm exhausted. Walking around is it's fun. I'm having such fun. You have to you have to have balance. Your emotions often balance out. You can't have one without the other. That's really good. Well done. There are so many positives out of that, Sean. Well done.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

I think that what you just said, there is a thing I want to point out though. I felt empty. So like you were just tired. That's but now to you, you could recognize as a recovered person, well, I'm really tired, I'm exhausted, I got nothing left. But I think a lot of anxious people, especially after a big win where they feel a little bit inoculated against anxiety and they're not super sensitized because they're feeling really good. But but what then there's no feeling? Like I'm not anxious, I'm not afraid, but I'm not happy, I'm not sad. Like, what is this? What is this letdown? What is this empty feeling? That's that's neutrality. Welcome to it. That's normal.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

It's also indicative of how often people with anxiety disorders go inwards to check how they feel. Yeah. Which is the most horrible compulsion that we have. It's a habit. Yeah. You know, it's like, because we're so used to through habits, probably automatic. How do I feel? How do I feel? How do I feel? How do I feel? You go away four days, you're probably, you know, you're still asking yourself that, but how much were you engaged in Washington, DC, walking around, taking in the site? It's all new stuff. It was enough probably to slow down that habit. You're engaging with people. Sean said he saw people's not seen for for donkeys years. Uh, and then he comes home and it walks, you know, you walk into the walls of your own home, the same place where you've had an anxiety disorder for years. And habits often thrive off associations. So the association might be, oh, I'll keep checking how I feel. And so rationally, Sean knows I've done an amazing thing, I've done this, I've learned so much. But then you keep checking how you feel. And guess what you find? You find that you're tired, you find that you need rest. Yeah. And that's completely okay.

SPEAKER_04 6:00

And then the how do I feel becomes, okay. Well, this is how I feel. And is this okay? Like there's always not only a checking how you feel, but an evaluating of how is it a right to feel this way? So, yeah, man, it's it's totally it's totally normal. And again, great job. And thanks for sharing. Really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

Well, that's great. That's great. I fancy, I fancy you did it anyway. We got one. Should we do that one?

SPEAKER_04 6:20

We could totally do one. Let's play this one and then yeah, we'll do some more questions. So here we go.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Hey, Drew and Josh. My name is Jessica, and I'm in the States. I work for a major U.S. airline which plays into the story. I have generalized anxiety disorder, and I think also just anxiety about most things, but I'm working on that. And one of those is working a particular position on an airplane in which I am in the aisle during boarding assisting with bags. I have a lot of anxiety about confrontation and that people are gonna get mad at me when I move their bag. So I had a trip coming up about a month ago, and I was working that position, which I tend to avoid. And the girl working another position in the back, another flight attendant, offered to switch with me. And I told her, no, I need to work it. I need to face this. And I did, and it went really, really well. So for the next trip, I intentionally worked three flights in that position, which stresses me out. And my worst anxiety came true, and someone got mad at me for moving a bag, and I did not die. So then I intentionally traded into another trip later this month, in which I am that position the entire trip, all four flights that trip. And I'm gonna just keep on leaning into the discomfort and doing it anyway. I feel really, really proud of myself. And it's funny, I just told my parents, hey, if I wasn't stressed out about it, I would not be a superhero for doing it. It's so empowering. Thank you guys so much. I cannot tell you how helpful this podcast has been. Please keep doing what you're doing, and those of us listening are going to keep doing it anyway.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

I w I wish I had airline attendance like that. I always get what do you want? Stop it. Move your legs, sir. You can't keep drinking whiskey, so you're being disruptive.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

Sir, please put your shirt back on. It's so annoying. Good job, Jessica. And you know what? I would totally listen to Jessica do like the safety announcement. Jessica, you sound like a flight attendant. So good job. Really good job.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

Well done as well. So, particularly with the um, you know, you're challenging uh quite a bit of a real phobia. No one likes conflict, that's your anxiety trying to protect you. But you also wanted to get that balance of, well, in my job, I'm probably gonna get some aggravated and irritated people, and I want to lean into that as part of my job. Yeah, um, which obviously you I don't condone people's rude behavior, but when you work with the public, you often bump into rude people. And I love how you embrace that. Like, okay, that's it's their behavior, that's the problem, and I can be with this feeling. I don't need to run away or dictate or let this dictate my day.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

Yeah, there was a little bit of uh self-compassion at the end or self-kindness when she says to her parents, hey, if it didn't frighten me, then I wouldn't, this wouldn't be a big win, like in in a way, because a lot of anxious people wind up defaulting to, yeah, but I shouldn't be afraid of that to begin with. No one else is afraid of that. This why is this a problem for me? Jessica was able to say, Well, it is, you know, this frightens me, and like, and I faced it, and therefore it's a win. She was able to sort of praise herself and not fall into like the Craig the Critic track uh trap of saying, I shouldn't have to worry about that to begin with. So if that's you, yeah, take a lesson from Jessica here. Great job.

SPEAKER_03 9:51

Love it. Well done. Well done.

SPEAKER_04 9:53

Okay. Well, we got another question. What should we do? Yeah, let's move on to let's do an audio question, then we'll read a couple. Yeah, we got plenty to do. So let's hear what I don't know if she said her name, so let's just play it and see how it goes.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Hi Josh and Drew. My name's Fiona, and I just have a quick question about the phone response. I recently listened to the podcast episode on it and realized just how much that resonates with me. Um I find myself worrying about what I say when I'm talking to people, sometimes holding back from saying something because I'm worried about what people might think. Um, and after talking to them or having conversations, I'll go over those conversations in my mind and be worried that I might have said something in the wrong way or wonder what people might have thought of me. Um but my question was how would I go about trying to uh do exposure for this kind of thing and trying to overcome it? Thank you for your help. Thanks again for everything that you do. Uh really enjoy your podcast, they've been so helpful. Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 11:22

What do you think? Good question.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

Good question, Fiona. And I think we can start with the inspiration from Jessica because a very similar response, fawn response. I'm afraid of what people might think of me or how they might react. It's very similar. Uh well, first of all, it's really brave of you to ask that and send that in. Yeah, that's the form response hates that. So well done. Um form response is often um often conditioned a lot by experiences. Um, it's it's part of social anxiety sometimes, or part of you know, this people-pleasing response. And often, as a therapist uh over the years, you know, I like to kind of unpick why that form response behaves like it does. Now, don't get me wrong, we all have a default form response somewhere. You know, if a nine-foot giant ran into this office now with a club and demanded that I sing hymns for it, I probably would because I'm gonna fawn to keep myself safe. However, sometimes that fawn response can become really sensitized due to previous conditioning. So you might have grown up in a household that was full of conflict. Maybe you've been in a relationship where someone flew off the handle because the breeze was went west instead of north. Maybe you've just been around people where, you know, if this person's pleased, then I can feel safe. There's different ways that form response is often conditioned, and then because it's wired that certain way, we take it into our personal lives and we start worrying. The modus operandi becomes this person needs to be calm and pleased, more than me conveying my opinion, or more than me kind of standing my ground or trying to attempt a joke or whatnot. Each time we thank, or each time we do a behavior like that, like you know, are they okay? Am I saying yes instead of no? Am I doing all these things to please? We thank the form response, and the form response gets credit for keeping us safe. So to answer your question, Fiona, uh, I think you look at ways in your life that you that you can do safely to challenge that form response. So maybe someone might come up with an opinion that you don't agree with. So you'd be like, okay, I respect that, but this is here's what I feel, you know. Maybe it's about speaking up first, maybe it's about telling people what your wants are, you know, or maybe it's just going up to the biggest person in the room and straight up insulting them in the face. Do not do that. But in general, it's about challenging that. So observe, Fiona, and challenge where that comes in and maybe explore it as well in therapy. Why do I fawn? Because that's often helpful I found with that. Hold on, that's not the bully in school, that's just someone at work, you know, and it's something I had to overcome as well. What do you think, Drew? Sorry, I was banging on that. No, that was really great.

SPEAKER_04 14:12

I think, you know, you I I I'm gonna defer to you as the expert on fawn, but I I think one suggestion I might add is if you're gonna look at like graduated exposure, Fiona says that she is in the habit of ruminating over conversations that already happened. What did I say? Let me replay that in my head. Well, that's a lower stakes place to kind of drop that behavior, right? So when you're on your own after the conversation and you feel like the right thing to do, because you're feeling very unsettled because you may have offended or not pleased that person, you want to replay and find some evidence that you did okay and they're okay with you. If you can recognize that, oh, I'm doing that thing, you have to start to be able to pay attention to what's going on inside you a little bit so that you can say, like, oh, that thing got kicked in now. That machine turned on, the fawn machine is turning on. So I'm I really want to plumb that experience for information that will make me feel better or safer or more settled. But actually, I'm gonna go and walk my dog while I take the risk that I did offend that person or they didn't like what I said. Now, you gotta ultimately move that into your actual real-time social interactions, but a place to start might be when you're on the on your own. No, I'm gonna sit and feel really like upset about that conversation and maybe worry that I I did not please or or or make that person happy while I make my tea or my lunch or do this email or read this book or take a walk or call my mom or whatever. So I think start there would be a good place to be. But yeah, I also think the, you know, I'm sorry, Josh, the the um you explore it in therapy is a great thing, but before you know for sure, and you may never know for sure, but before that exploration, it might be helpful to say, like, oh, that machine, the fawn machine was turned on. Clearly, something in my experiences have taught me that this is the right thing to do. But I also know that it's sort of not, because it's making it's not helping me. So, okay, let me be nice to myself. I I clearly feel unsafe in my interactions. I have to work on that now. That's a great place to start, right?

SPEAKER_03 16:15

Yeah, brilliant. And uh and um and Jess Jessica showed an example of the attitude there. Well, uh, it's okay to be like, well, I hope that person I I don't get upset people when I get on the aircraft and if I move a bag, but if they do, I'm all right being with that feeling, you know. Ultimately it's their responsibility. Judge yourself on your intentions, you know, and and not necessarily judging yourself through the eyes and reactions of others.

SPEAKER_04 16:44

Uh, foreign could sometimes be an identity thing, too. Yeah, it could come from past difficult, unsafe feeling experiences for sure, but sometimes it's also but that's how I prove that I'm a good person by making everybody happy and tending to their emotions and paying close attention to their facial expressions, and like that's how I prove to myself that I am in fact a good person.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Or but where did you interject that lesson from? Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 17:08

Yeah, where did that come from? So, you know, or I cannot guarantee that I'm a good person right now because that person thinks I am.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

So yeah, good question. Yeah, it's it's good, and that's so that's why with with foreign social anxiety, it's always nuanced, it's subjective to the individual. Yeah, I found it difficult. Uh not difficult. It's the reason why I said therapy, because it's one of those things where don't expect therapy to erase the response, but it's really good to understand it. So for me, it would be like, no, that isn't that person from my past.

SPEAKER_04 17:36

Yeah, yeah. Ultimately, you learn that was then, this is now. That's true. And I yeah, the only other thing that I would add to this, because as I'm as you're talking, this popped into my head. People might say, like, yeah, but I'm I'm doing that thing where like I'm agoraphobic or I have panic disorder or whatever. Like, I'm trying to go out to social, you know, I don't have social anxiety, I don't think I have the fawn response. But when I go out and try to do an exposure in a social setting where I might panic, the problem is if I'm too anxious in that social setting, I'm gonna ruin everybody else's night. But it's kind of a that's kind of fun, right? So even though you might say, well, I'm not a fawn person, I wasn't maybe I wasn't subject to that kind of abuse. But if you if you learned that your emotions can ruin someone else's day, you might have a little bit of fawn holding you back from from actually being anxious in that social situation.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

Yeah, I would I would uh go as far as to say is that if you hold the belief that your anxiety is going to ruin someone's day, that is a yeah, it's a brand in the fawn response.

SPEAKER_04 18:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

I think we don't talk about that that much. And it's all the same response. Fight, flight, freeze, fawn. It just depends on it's the conceptualization. What do you what's what mode do you go in when there's threat? But some people, I ain't going there, I'm running. Flight. Some people they get angry and irritated, fight. Some people they freeze and be like, oh, I just don't want people to see me. I can try and hide my feelings. And then there's fawn, which is you know, if everyone's happy, then I've done a good job. But um, yeah, really good question. Thanks for sending that in. It was a brave thing to do. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 19:13

Let's do a let me read a question. So let's see here. Uh, did I can I use this person's name? Yes. So this person says, Hi, Drew and Josh. Hi, Josh and Drew, trying not to play favorites. My name is Erin. Use it as you please. And I think it's finally time to ask the question that arises in my mind at least once per episode of Distordered. One of the constants of your approach to anxiety is that all states are permissible. She's correct. I say that a lot. In terms of mental states, I'm on board. I've been anxious for a long time, so it makes sense that if I wait to be in the perfect mood to do something, I'll be waiting for the rest of my life. And furthermore, I've learned that uh that I do what I often do often ends up determining my mood. So good job. Good job, Aaron. If only I were a mind without a body, I'd be on track to recovery. Sadly, I've hit a brick wall when it comes to my physical state. How can all physical states be permissible? Recently, my panic attacks have been virtually indistinguishable from the end. My heart races and skips multiple beats. I get so dizzy I can barely stand, and my whole body shakes and sweats as if I've contracted a horrible virus. The worst part is that even after countless medical tests, which have made it increasingly clear that my symptoms are caused by anxiety, all I can think of is the damage that anxiety is doing to my body. I honestly cannot imagine being able to do what non-anxious me would do while my body feels like the Titanic. And indeed, it doesn't seem rational or healthy to do so. I guess what I'm asking is, at what point does a panic attack become a medical emergency? What do you think? I have thoughts about this, but what do you think?

SPEAKER_03 20:45

Well, the words that creep out all the time feels like I think the conceptualization of that my panic, you know, is is different and special, you know, but but but it feels like everyone's panic, no one goes, oh, this is tolerable panic. Panic is panic, you know, and it's a very physical thing and it's very scary. But yeah, I think it's important to conceptualize that I'm panicking, and my as Drew says, my body is doing anxious body things. Um I would ooh, there's a qu there's quite a few things. What came to mind when you're reading the question now, and it's a very good question, is there's a bit there's a there's something that a lot of CBT therapists do where if you panic, you know, they record it, yeah. Oh obviously confidential, yeah, and you record yourself panicking, and so you're describing all this, I'm the Titanic, my heart's pounding, and this, and my hair's on fire, etc. And then part of that in C BT is that you challenge those thoughts, and then you look at the video back and like were you Yeah, did do you do you look incapable in this video? I mean you're fidgeting in your chair and you're pulling your shirt a bit, but what your emotional phenomenological Experiences is is actually framing your ability or lack of belief in order to do things. Is that you? Is that me?

SPEAKER_04 22:11

What a weird notification that is. I don't even know what it is. Oh, you know what that was? That was a notification to record this episode with you.

SPEAKER_03 22:18

Oh, right. Okay. Well, good timing, mate. I know. And uh, yeah, and it's just like, yeah, it's that, it's that phenomenal. Like, so I would challenge all these beliefs, you know. I would that this is where CBT is good. All these core beliefs you have about your experience, and I'd be like, hmm, really? No, I could be wrong. I could be sat with you and you're having a panic attack, and yeah, you've ripped down my wallpaper, you're sweating, it's you know, it's everywhere, there's blood pouring out of your eyes. Okay, your panic attacks are exceptional. But I would put a wager on that they're not.

SPEAKER_04 22:50

I there are two things that come to mind. One would be, well, I'll I'll do the first one first. Like, I understand that it feels terrible. Well, both of us do. We've been there, right? But the question at the end was at what point does a panic attack become a medical emergency? And the answer is never. And here's why I can say that, because that is a designed response. Every human being comes from the factory with this mechanism baked into us at the lowest level. It's there for a reason. We want it. We need it, we use it sometimes appropriately. So there is no such thing as a natural, predictable, measurable, repeatable phenomenon physically that's baked into us for a reason that isn't an emergency.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Does that make sense? And the question, Sandyrna said, I'm aware, and there's another belief that we challenge. Yeah. All this panic is damaging my body.

SPEAKER_04 23:42

Yeah, but you know what is more damaging? The belief that the panic is damaging you. Yeah, it's not damaging you.

SPEAKER_03 23:48

The all these things are already in your body. That's right. You know, this is what people don't get. Like you've got little, I don't know, let's just f for ease sake, your little um sachets of adrenaline and cortisol and whatnot. They're already in your body. Yeah. You know, your organs produce them, whatever, on demand. But everything that's that that's there is there and it's ready. And all that happens is it just gets released into your bloodstream. Yep. How is that damaging your body? Oh, my heart rate increases. Well, good. Needs a good workout. Right. Science shows if you don't work out your heart, you're more likely to get heart disease.

SPEAKER_07 24:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:23

In fact, it's a two-in-one. Shall I go to the gym or shall I just induce a panic? What's gonna happen? You know, and and it's one of those things, it's like challeng there's a lot of misbeliefs in this question that I would challenge as a therapist about what's actually happening. Let's prove that theory, let's see it from where it is. Let's challenge the notion that panic is damaging you because it isn't, and see what how different that panic is in a different scenario that isn't in your house.

SPEAKER_04 24:55

Yeah, yeah, it's really starting from the premise that, like, well, if my heart races and I shake and sweat, that's unpleasant, so or or scary or terrifying, even. Therefore, it must be damaging. That's a mistake. That is a mistake. That is not a correct conclusion. And sorry, and you have to you have to start by challenging that. Oh, because it scares me so much, I draw the conclusion that therefore it must be dangerous to me. But that is not a correct conclusion. That conclusion is drawn from your emotional state. And the second thing I might say is what Josh was talking about, is but this is a more foundational thing. In the the way Aaron asked the question, it was really great because I think there's a lot of information in here. The metaphors, the imagery that you're using, if you don't first start with, hang on, I gotta really look at the language I use. Because if Aaron was sitting in the room with me and this was therapy, I would say, are you asking me a question or are you telling me that what you already know? Because I have to look at my language and say, if I continue to describe it this way, then all I'm basically saying is, too bad, therapists or or podcasters, I already know that this is unhandleable and impossible. Prove me wrong. And first you gotta challenge your own belief, otherwise, we can't do anything. What if I'm wrong about this? So, Aaron, I would ask yourself, what if I stop talking about it this way? If you start with the the what skills, and it doesn't stand for anything, it's the word what like a question. My heart is racing, I feel short of breath, I'm feeling off balance, my tummy is churning, my legs are shaking. That's it. Not my legs are shaking like the Titanic, just this is what's going on. And guess what? I'm afraid.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

I'm having a panic attack. Right. And semantics are so important, but when and we often get these questions, and we know because we want to convey how horrible it is. I know. Yeah, you know, we've ended up in hospital looking silly after panic attacks. But like I would often say, you know, you hear this, the mother of all panic attacks, the biggest spiral ever, the Titanic sinking, and yet universally, the same physiological response is happening. It's just how we are again. I'll say the word conceptualized, because conceptualization and how you perceive it is very important.

SPEAKER_04 27:10

Yeah, I agree 100%. Good question.

SPEAKER_03 27:12

Thanks for the question. Really good, Erin.

SPEAKER_04 27:13

Thank you. Yeah, very good. You got one, you got a written one, or we have two more audios. We got time. What do you want to do?

SPEAKER_03 27:19

Uh I've got a I've got a written did it anyway. Oh, love it. Before we go into a question. Okay, cool. Um they didn't give permission to leave their name, but here we go. I have a did it anyway for you. Food is one of my biggest fears after having a very real and terrifying food reaction earlier in the year. I've cut my diet diet down to only a few safe foods. Well, since I've been a lot better recently with general day-to-day living, I thought it was time to trial the food. Love that curiosity. I added an egg yolk to my chicken soup today as I was listening to your podcast, your episode about food. I had literally just added the egg yolk when I heard Drew say he had recently developed an allergy to avocado. Perfect timing to get that fear response ramped up. But I did it anyway, and guess what? It's been about two hours now, and I'm still here to tell the tale. Brilliant. I like that. I've been there as well. Many years ago, I, you know, uh, you did this as well, didn't you, Juliet? Looking at ingredients on packets, developing certain reactions. This is even better because this person's actually had an allergic reaction in the past and then used that curiosity, and their exposure was to introduce foods. Well done. I'm glad the egg didn't kill you.

SPEAKER_04 28:38

Um, sorry for the subliminal suggestion while you were making your lunch. My little avocado allergy thing. Yeah. Oops. But you know what? I love that this person was like, well, I heard Drew say that, but like, well, this is I guess this is a good time. He just triggered some feelings. I guess I'm gonna practice now. So good job. Well done.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

Yeah, that's brilliant. How was the avocado allergy going on?

SPEAKER_04 28:57

I don't know because I I miss like avocado. I like it, but the tingling, it's it's it's very mild. Anyone who's listening to it. Go get one now. Let's do a live avocado. There's one in my fridge right now. I know that there's an avocado right now. If I you know what would happen, you would not even know. Like uh, I can eat an entire avocado, and what would happen to me is your lips get a little tingly. Yeah, so like just live on the podcast. Just to clarify, I didn't overnight develop a life-threatening like reaction to avocados. My my lips will get a little tingly and my tongue get a little tingly for like seven minutes, and it's not even that big a deal. So I yeah, no, I don't need an epi pen if I if I have a tuna roll. So it's okay.

SPEAKER_07 29:38

Uh good.

SPEAKER_04 29:40

Cool. Um question? Yeah, let's do an audio question. Um, this one we've been holding on to for a while. It's a short one, and it's about avoidance. So here we go.

SPEAKER_05 29:50

Hey Josh and Drew, my name is Vadi from Scotland. I have been struggling with panic disorder for the past four years now, and within those four years, I've just completely came off of social media, as anything negative will set off a panic attack. So I avoid it at all costs. Which some people say it's a good thing that I'm avoiding social media, but you always say to do it what non-anxious you would do, and non-anxious me would scroll through social media. So I guess my question is should I go back to social media? Would that help my recovery to stop avoiding it altogether? Or should I just never go back to social media again and keep it out of my life? Anyway, thank you guys for everything you do. Bye.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

That's a really good question. It's a really good question. Uh I I would say, yeah, you're right. And it's often this so you know, staying off social media is good for your brain. This is a podcast about anxiety disorders, and I love how um this I forgot the name. Did they say the name? Yeah, Vari. Vari. Vari says, actually, non-anxious me would probably be on social media. So what would you say to that, Drew?

SPEAKER_04 30:58

Uh, you're right. So, since we are, this is a podcast about anxiety disorders. I might say, no, we're gonna go back on social media, right? If this so if we're working together in therapy, I would say, yeah, we're gonna use this as a tool. However, we can also acknowledge that like just letting an algorithm send you like inflammatory emotional button-pushing stuff, because that's what it does to get you to keep scrolling, because we pay attention when we're upset, curate that. So, yeah, start scrolling, and you're gonna have to like you're gonna see some stuff that might trigger you because you know, I get that. That's well, the the world is rough sometimes. Now I'm gonna have to not interested, not interested, not interested. So I would take the opportunity to say, like, let yourself get a little upset in the scroll, little amounts at a time, a few minutes at a time, but also use that to curate your feed then. No, no, what I really like is tattoo art and food and travel. And so I'm gonna make sure that my social media sort of gravitates to that so I can use it for something that I enjoy and it does help me be entertained or pass the time sometimes. I don't have to just leave it up to an algorithm, but I do have to let the algorithm trigger me at first and practice getting through that.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

Yeah, remove the fear first. Yep. So you want to you want to quit social media because not because it's making you fear fear, because the rest, all the other internal voices don't like it either. Yeah, yeah, correct. You know, actually non-anxious me doesn't want to be on social media now because it's actually evoking anger, irritation. Yep. I've been doom scrolling for hours, watching brain rot. Now I don't want to look on social media. Completely okay. But if you're like, oh no, that's gonna make me panic, then yeah, I'd I'd be getting out on social media and be like, right, let's go. Yeah, I just and then if you want to better relationship with it, you know, reset your algorithm. I do that.

unknown 32:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:47

I mean, I don't really go on social media that much anymore. I've noticed I've not really been posting recently. Um, but like reset your algorithms, it's it's good internet socials health, uh, particularly if you see my feed, it's just an abomination of awful things. Uh so I have to go back and and um and just yeah, and reset it.

SPEAKER_04 33:07

But yeah, good question. No, I think it was really great. Yeah, they'll be careful of that thing where it's like, no, no, no, my job every day is to manage my state very carefully because I can't tolerate certain states. That's a losing proposition. You can't do that whole time.

SPEAKER_03 33:18

Yeah, if you're sat in here, I've stopped scrolling on social media because it makes me panic and I fear panic. I'd be like, right, let's get out social media.

SPEAKER_04 33:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

But it's gonna make me panic. I'm like, yeah, let's see how well we do with that.

SPEAKER_04 33:28

As an aside, you know, one of the most fun things to do is watch what happens when like Instagram, for instance, doesn't know what you want. Oh, it's so entertaining because it just throws the craziest shit at you. Usually it's either very funny or it's really aggravating and inflammatory, like it's trying to figure out what do I have to show this person to get them to scroll more. That's a that's a fun experiment. Anyway, that's a different topic. Um, what do we got? We got a couple of minutes, we could do another one or two. What do you think? Yeah, we got any audios left or we do. Now I wrote this as a did it anyway, but I suspect there's a question in here. I don't know. Well, let's play it. What's the worst thing can happen? Let's see what happens. Well, we'll roll the dice, take our chances.

SPEAKER_06 34:12

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name is Aaron. I'm from Texas, and you can use my name. Um, I wanted to share an I Did It Anyways moment. I suffer from anxiety, uh PTSD. Uh recently have just accepted uh what my therapist has been saying for probably a couple of years now that I do have OCD, and this health anxiety is where this factors in the most. I had a really complicated pregnancy with my twins. It resulted in a very long, um, kind of year-long stay at the hospital and multiple traumatic events, but they are doing well, just for the record. Um, during that time and of getting through that, my mom was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And she did pass away a couple of years ago. But from all that, the health anxiety has been on the forefront of my struggles. And when I turned 40 in January, I put off the 40-year mammogram and didn't want to do it because I thought doing it would manifest something terrible. And actually made the appointment once and then chickened out and canceled it. But I decided to do it. I decided to sit in the anxiety and do it. And so I scheduled it. I had a week to wait. During that week I read your book, how does that make you feel? And uh that was comforting, and it was like you just sat with me while I was waiting for this moment. I had the uh the mammogram today and already got the results back, and that's everything's clear, and uh so naturally I laid on the floor and cried it out for a while. Um, but thank you for uh helping me through this.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

I love that she laid it on laid on the floor and cried it out for a while.

SPEAKER_03 36:04

Oh, a compassionate cry. Well done. That's outstanding. All the all the uh the fear and and the associations with it, and particularly after losing your mom and stuff like that, and then just to lean into that is take such courage and bravery. A big well done for us uh uh from us at Disordered, and uh yeah, I want to do I want to do a nice cry on the floor. I've not done that for a while. Can we film it? No, damn it. No, there's private moments, private moments in the middle of a busy public place.

SPEAKER_04 36:36

Uh hell okay, so lay on the floor and cry and let it be a private moment. Then please bring a video crew in and lights and then restage it so that it's curated reality so you can show people how vulnerable you are.

SPEAKER_03 36:46

Oh, yeah, that'll go viral. Maybe Jay Shetty will walk in and that's what we need, man. Make me part of some kind of giant pyramid scheme. Right. Uh I've got a question. Okay, bring it. It's from Rihanna. Hi guys, I found your podcast recently and I've been devouring it. Nice one, like a bologna sandwich. Uh I'm regularly thinking of what would non-anxious me do and sit through the discomfort to rewire those pathways. I have many questions but whittled it down to the one I have yet to hear about after listening to episode 77 about somatic hyperfocus. I wondered what you would suggest for the in for the internal body habits that people develop in response to that hyperfocused. For instance, my focus has been on my gut, and I love Dr. Sula Wingasson's episode. It is a good episode. For the last eight months or so, since coming off anti-anxiety meds, which piqued my health anxiety, and I started tensing everything internal below my rib cage. It has become the norm, and it's very difficult to recognize when it happens, let alone how to relax it. How would a person unstick themselves from such body habits? Keep up the fantastic work, soundboard included.

SPEAKER_07 38:04

Amygdala.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Nor in the David Veil episode. Press some buttons.

SPEAKER_04 38:11

How can that be? Hang on.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

It's Craig the critic.

SPEAKER_04 38:13

There we go.

SPEAKER_03 38:14

Any others? Oh yeah. Yeah. Sorry about that. Soundboard included. And I hope anyone struggling with anxiety finds you. You have answered so many questions already, and it's nice to know you're not alone. Good.

SPEAKER_07 38:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

Um, so yeah, Rhiannon's question, Drew. I'm gonna throw it to you. Okay. Um, you know, how do I unstick myself from such body habits? Tensing below the rib cage and things.

SPEAKER_04 38:39

Well, I'll just throw this out there, even though this is really nuanced, though, because if this, if you are brand new to this and you are so focused all the time on how your body feels, and you are convinced that you have to watch your body for signs of danger, we don't do this. We cannot start here. But when we learn to be mindfully aware of what's going on inside of us, which is part of the foundation of acceptance, we often will use little exercises called body scans. But you gotta know that you're in a place where you can do that. The body scan is not meant to find danger, it's meant to become a little bit more friendly again with the fact that your body is dynamic and it changes all the time. So a little, it doesn't have to be a 45-minute, like full-blown official MBSR exercise, but five minutes of a quick scan from head to toe, what do I notice? But you gotta be able to just stop at what do I notice? Not like, uh oh, what is this tightness? What is that feeling? What is that tangle? This clearly it's a tango uh tumor. If you're there, you can't do this. But if you're past that point, it it can be really helpful to just check now and then to see, you know, what do I notice in my body? Oh, I notice tension in my in my gut. I'm tensing, I'm tensing again, or I'm clenching my jaw, whatever it is. Okay, I don't have to judge myself for that, but when I'm done with this little exercise, let me see if I can relax that. So you can use exercises like that if you're far enough along where you're not triggered into the emergency state. But otherwise, if you can write this question, then you are aware of the tensing. So maybe you're not as aware as you want yet, but when you notice it, just take a second and you're gonna have to relax that whenever you do notice it. You can help build awareness by practicing mindfulness and learning that skill, but whenever you do notice it, you gotta let go of the tension. What can you do? I had that. I used to clench my jaw and my shoulders were up around my neck, all I did, my shoulders were at my ears all the time. And I had no idea, not a clue.

SPEAKER_03 40:28

Yeah, I had that. So because it particularly with the the somatic hyperfocus, so when I had a tense jaw and tense shoulders like like you, I would try to do the opposite. So I'd fight it. So I'd like to do these purposeful relaxation exercises and stuff like that, yeah, and then check to see if I was more relaxed. And I was actually just agitating my tense muscles more. It went away with that, yeah, that noticing, like you said, Drew, with without judgment, noticing that it's tense, and then I'd say, right, well, I'm obviously feel tense, so I'd work on that because when I've when I don't feel tense, I'm not gonna tense. Yeah, but if you're early on in this journey, then you know that's okay. Just notice it and it will relax in itself, and just yeah, learn build in some relaxing times in your day as well. Because often we tend I tense when I'm just stressed, you know, and then because of habit.

SPEAKER_04 41:19

Yeah, we can use things like progressive muscle relaxation, which teaches us what relaxation feels like. So you could you could Google that, there's a million videos in that. But I I think one thing that Josh brings up, but I'll I'll definitely echo here is be careful of looking for ways to create relaxation. Like, no, no, there must be some, isn't there some activity that I do that creates relaxation in my body? No, not really. When you notice that your stomach is tense, I disagree with that.

SPEAKER_03 41:45

It's part of what non-anxious you would do.

SPEAKER_04 41:48

Oh, I see what you're saying. Right, okay.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

That makes sense. So if you're gonna do something relaxed, you know what? I've had a long day, I'm gonna go home and do what I would usually do to relax, as opposed to a magic technique to relax.

SPEAKER_04 42:01

Or maybe it's about preventing the tension. Like, that's not a thing. Like, isn't there something I can do that will prevent that from happening? Well, yeah, practicing relaxing over time your brain will get the picture, but yeah, that you're right. You're 100% right. So yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:15

No, yeah, it's like yeah, yeah, you don't want to get rid of that feeling and you want to be okay with the feeling. Right. And then it's more likely to go away. But I I always I always encourage first gear things. Yeah, you know, I'm more likely, yes, I'm more likely to be to unwind and become less tense when I'm doing first gear things. Yeah. Am I gonna technique if I no, but I'm creating the conditions for it more likely to happen.

SPEAKER_04 42:40

Yep, I agree. I'm gonna have to like volume drop that because that was so loud. Uh, that's all right then. I can't tell because it's not loud. It's not loud on that side, I know. Uh the only louder I might add, and then we'll wrap it up is if you're if you are tensing your abdominal muscles, and again, this is from my own personal experience and the experiences of others, you can't just be tensing your abs. Nobody's doing that unless you're literally in a gym and you're sparring and you're preparing to take a hit to the body. You are not just tensing your abs. Look for I'm holding my breath, I'm clenching my jaw, I'm making fists, my I'm holding my you know, my breathe, my heart rate is up. Like you should be able to see that there's things alongside that. And that's a that's a hint. Oh, I gotta deflate the balloon, but that's all I can do. Uh relax as best I can in the moment and then go on and then do it again.

SPEAKER_03 43:28

So yeah, I'm tense at the moment. Uh, I should just go easy. That's what I say to myself.

SPEAKER_04 43:32

Go easy. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 43:33

Go easy, keep quite vague. Just go easy.

SPEAKER_04 43:35

Yeah. Or I'm fighting, I'm clearly fighting, I'm fighting something right now. Can I stop fighting for a minute?

SPEAKER_03 43:40

So excellent. Thank you for sending in those wonderful questions and did it anyway. Um, you can leave voice notes and emails at disordered.fm. Thank you for rating the show as well on Spotify and Apple and stuff like that. Really appreciate it, and it allows other people, anxious people, to discover the podcast. And um, yeah, big thank you for for for the people that shared it or just people that just tune in while you're chopping vegetables out on a walk. Thanks for uh for um bringing us along with you.

SPEAKER_04 44:14

Yeah, feel like you want to go chop some vegetables now. All right, we'll be back in a week to talk about something else. Who knows what it'll be? Thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_03 44:20

Yeah, see you later.