Let Me Tell You How I Feel (Episode 153)

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hi, Drew and Dropped. This is Helen from The Wirral. You can use my name. Just sharing it did it anyway. I had to go down to London for a drug trial to see if they can give me some medication to help with a condition that I have, which mimics a lot of the same physical symptoms of anxiety. And the trial involved taking a drug, being given the drug, and then being monitored for four hours in cardiology, with them asking me frequently how I felt. Did I have any symptoms? I was like, I have all of the symptoms. I think I might be dying. On the second set of observations, uh, they took my blood pressure and it was really quite high. And I said, Oh, I'm clearly having a reaction to the drug because that's the that's clearly what's happening here. Um, until a nurse pointed out that the drug was actually supposed to lower my blood pressure. So that was absolutely nothing to do with it. But what I realized is that I did give a lot of attention to my symptoms because, you know, they were asking me about it continually. However, I sat through it. Um, I passed the test so I have the drugs to try. But most importantly, I am looking forward to the next time I'm triggered by my anxiety so I can practice again and be slightly less attention focused on it and slightly more doing what I should have been doing, which is just reading my book.

SPEAKER_05 1:45

Well done, Helen from the World. Welcome to Disordered. We start with it anyway, did it anyway that leads to our topic. Today's episode is entitled, Let Me Tell You How I Feel. Uh, I am Drew Linz, a lot of one half of Disordered. I'm on the the other side of the Atlantic Ocean in the U.S. I'm a therapist that uh specializes in treating anxiety and anxiety disorder, a former sufferer of the things we talk about here on Disordered, an author, psychoeducator, podcaster, social media guy. And I am joined, as always, by my co-host from the UK.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. And I'm a psychotherapist and author who specializes in the world of anxiety and anxiety disorders. And I just want to say a big well done to Helen. That's wonderful. We love that did it anyway. Uh, so much so that we're going to use it as today's topic. Let me tell you how I feel.

SPEAKER_05 2:36

Let me tell you how I feel. When uh when I was at my worst, I wanted to tell, I would tell anyone with an earshot instantaneously and automatically. Let me tell you how I feel. I constantly want to set it say how I felt. My heart feels weird, my head feels weird, I'm dizzy, I'm scared, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm panicking, I am anxious. I wanted to say how I was feeling all the time. What about you?

SPEAKER_03 2:58

Really? Oh interesting. I was a bit different. I was like, I was too scared to bring attention to it because I didn't want people to look at me and confirm how bad I felt. Like, you know, or feel anxious. And when they turn around and go, No, yeah, you yeah, you look, you look like crap. Oh my god. That that would make me feel worse. But it is something I hear a lot in my practice, particularly those with obsessive, compulsive, OCD and anxiety. When they overlap, you have something called like a confessing compulsion or just a telling compulsion where I have to confess, I have to almost pre-apologize or just I need to tell people how I feel just in case. You know, like I just have to tell, and there's a lot of people out there that do it, but lots of clients do it. There's just this absolute, yeah, a compulsion, really, to just I have to tell everyone how I feel. Everyone has different reasoning behind it. Some people like I have to do it to feel safe, just in case disaster happens. And some people have to be like, no, I need to tell people to apologize for my incoming behavior. I have or or I've just it's just a problem shared is a problem halved theory. Like, well, it's not, and we're gonna challenge that notion today.

SPEAKER_05 4:16

Yeah, I think um interesting. Mine was a safety compulsion for sure. Like, I need to tell you how I feel because I need to talk about it so that you know that I'm feeling bad so you can save me. One of the things that I think is hidden in the let me tell you how I feel is it isn't always speaking it out loud. You know, what I always say is like, well, I'll tell anybody who will listen, but really, you know who's listening more than anyone else? Me. Like you hear that you have to constantly. So you're either saying it out loud or you're looping through it in your head, how you feel, how I feel, how I feel, what am I feeling, what am I thinking, what am I emotional? Is this the right emotion? Is this the right feeling? Oh my God, my heart, oh my god, my jelly wakes, oh my god, my dizziness, oh my god, the like so let me tell you how I feel isn't just external, sometimes it's internal. And I think what's interesting is Helen's story is so great because she literally, like the worst case scenario, it's like the Olympics for an anxiety disorder. Let me give you a drug that you've never taken before, which by the way is in a clinical trial, and then we're just gonna keep asking you for four hours. Your heart doesn't feel weird, does it? Like, wow, I could not think of a bigger challenge, right? That was really good. So it's that, hey, can you please do us a favor and focus very intently on everything that's happening inside your body? But for a reason that there was they had to do that, but wow, what a trial by that.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

From that, what Helen learned about her anxiety disorder is yeah, oh, I'm realizing how much I actually monitor how I feel. So then put me in a situation where it's now like they think it's like, no, we're gonna ask you how to monitor how you feel. It brings to light how much you actually already do it when you have an exam.

SPEAKER_05 5:51

Like it's okay, guys. You don't have to ask me, I'm doing it anyway. Just give me a pad and I'll just write it down as we go, right? So, what a great, great, great uh share from Helen. And I think it really illustrates that. It I think we were talking also before that you know, it might be an interesting episode, even for the therapist that listen, because it it also puts us up against the common wisdom or conventional wisdom, which is you must talk about how you feel. That's what we do. If you have emotions, if you have feelings, if you have experiences, you talk about them. That's how we deal with them, right? Like when you said a problem solved is a problem. Right, exactly. And sometimes, yeah, but unless it's compulsive.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

Right.

SPEAKER_05 6:30

That's exactly that it's not okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

That's the difference. Like if you're having a really crap time, you know, and you're like, you know what, I'm really tired of my anxiety disorder, my OCD, my intrusive thoughts. I'm tired of feeling tired, I'm tired of my uh during my exposure, so I'm feeling it down. Yeah. Oh yeah. Tell people. That's okay. But that's not compulsive. Compulsive is I'm anxious, I need to tell someone. Can you imagine if you did that with every emotion? You probably don't. You're not like, you know, I'm feeling content today, or feeling no, no, people do that, don't they? Here's another one. I was thinking about this the other day, uh, because I'm a loser and think about anxiety disorders, but not compulsionally. Um when people celebrate feeling not anxious. Oh my god, I feel really great. I need to tell everyone I'm feeling great. I need to make all these plans and I'm feeling great. Again, is that teaching the brain that anxiety is safe? And going back to my golden rules that you all hate, uh, you're still making anxiety the most important thing in the room, even when it's not there. It's a bit like a house party when I leave. Still the most important person in the room, and even though I'm not there, and that's the same thing. Um, telling people how you feel, whether you're anxious, confessing, compulsing, or telling everyone you're not anxious. Oh my God, I'm not anxious. Still look at what that's doing, the attitude towards your anxiety and feelings you don't like.

SPEAKER_05 8:00

Yeah. It's kind of weird that we have a therapist in our studio audience today who said, Yeah, that's what we're taught, and she's right. Like I remember the first time, you know, during my my grad graduate training. Of course, you know, I have that anxiety disorder lens that I'm looking through. So when we're doing our silly grad student role plays, which you do as you're in grad school before you're working with actual clients, and I'm doing the anxiety therapist thing, and everyone in the room is looking at me like you are a monster because I am, you know, I'm I'm no, we don't automatically just talk about everything that pops into our heads. That is not the way we do it in this. But you're right, therapists are generally, generally trained to get a client to explore that more and more and more, peel the layers away, like get them to probe it, get them to feel it more deeply. I'm like, that's actually causing their problem.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

So we have to learn to certainly became that for a long time.

SPEAKER_05 8:53

Yeah, I've been doing that for years, dude. Like, you don't have to teach me how to do that. I can't stop doing it, as a matter of fact.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

So it's a type of therapy because that does apply for some people. For some people who don't check how they feel, completely bury their emotions, you know, they self-medicate, they maybe take someone who's in denial about grief or s or anger or something. Yes, that therapy is great.

SPEAKER_04 9:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:15

No, come in, notice how that's affecting you, you know, getting in touch with your emotions. A lot of people aren't in touch with their emotions. In this community, you know, particularly when we fear anxiety, sensitized state, whatever, um, we've been doing that all day. We've done enough monitoring and being in with our emotions to last a lifetime. Yeah, you know, so it's a bit like no, so yeah, we don't bash that approach. There's a t there's a space for it. I've done it. I've sat in therapy myself as the client and felt where grief is, or I've felt loss, and doing that. That was an invitation to do it grounded in the moment, mindfully, outside of an anxiety disorder, outside the fear of fear and compulsive monitoring. There's a difference there, isn't there?

SPEAKER_05 10:06

There totally is. Even in my therapy sessions, often, I mean, that stuff is gonna come up, you know. So the anxious person, the person dealing with an anxiety disorder, they just want to talk about the wrong feelings. And I don't mean to say any feelings could be wrong, all feelings are valid, but they want to talk about the buzzing in their head or the feeling like they're about to go crazy or the the worry that they're never gonna get better. How about we forget that part and actually talk about the fact that you just had a giant fight with your partner that's lasted for three days and they're not talking to you? Like, let's talk about that part. And then sure enough, after 20 or 30 minutes of them exploring that part, they'll be like, Oh yeah, I feel a little better. I'm like, oh, so you actually talked about those feelings and you feel better. Who saw that coming? So, as opposed to, you know, oh, let me just talk about my physical sensations and my fear is let's actually talk about what emotion are you experiencing. Well, I'm really angry at that person. All right, well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about the anger.

SPEAKER_03 10:57

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's some some people in some couple of therapists in the studio audience. Um, one who says they feel a bit guilty um by encouraging the um talking and uh with therapy with clients. No, you don't need to feel guilty at all, actually. It's a systematic thing, you know. If you're not taught, you know, and again, this is why OCD awareness and anxiety disorder awareness is still working on it. That's why we do, it's why it's why disordered exists, you know. Uh working at it for in those ways. And once you know, like you know, I I couldn't spot OCD when I first started becoming um a therapist. I just thought everything was panic and stuff like that. And the more you work, the more you work with it and understand the the better it is. Um, but yeah, going back to like sometimes we can unknowingly facilitate if you're a loved one potentially as well. I found that anxious loved ones who are anxious about the person who has anxiety, they will then start to compulsively ask, yeah, how are you, how are you now? Are you better? Are you better? I've heard I've heard a lot of people like that as well, and they're kind of unknowingly facilitating this inwards, inwards, inwards, how I feel is important. Now, don't get me wrong, zoom out how you feel is is important. In the window of urgency when your threat response is firing off, it's not important. You know what it is. You know, that's my misfiring threat response. I'm trying to teach my misfiring threat response to turn off. If I drop everything down tools and zone in on how I feel and tell everyone, I have to tell everyone about this one moment, then I'm keeping this misfiring threat response on.

SPEAKER_05 12:43

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. I I think it's even okay to um in my own personal experience, by the way, I had to tell people in my life, please stop asking me. Because they think they're doing the right thing, and I totally understand. It's it comes from a place of caring, and again, the default would be oh, check in with the person. How are you doing today, Drew? And I had to tell people, please stop asking me that. Like I'm trying to stop focusing on that all the time.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

If I knew that's your help, that's you being a military sergeant, you're allowed to ask how someone's doing.

SPEAKER_05 13:13

Well, yeah, except no, and then I'll tell you what.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

No, no, the the answer is I'm doing well.

SPEAKER_05 13:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Because what what does well mean? I would argue, yeah. How are you doing? I'm anxious, but I'm doing well with it. I'm not compulsing, so yeah, I think I'm doing well.

SPEAKER_05 13:32

Yeah, once you can get there, sure. But I think it's it's when you're trying to break that. If you're in an anxiety disorder state and you're working on this stuff, and both you and the people around you are still glued to no, no, we talk about how we feel, we must say how we feel. Yeah, you know, sometimes we have to break that habit. It was really weird for them to hear me say, Stop asking me how I feel. I know you see my leg shaking, I know you see my face change, but I'm okay with that. I'm working on, I can't, I gotta learn to deal with that myself.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

So when they already know the answer.

SPEAKER_05 14:00

Right, right. Like you already know how I feel, so it's it's okay. Um, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

So Drew, how'd how'd you feel?

SPEAKER_05 14:06

Don't ask me that, damn it. Answer the question. It was fine. Right, answer the question. And it's so funny, you know, it's a little bit of a tangent, but I there are relationships where how do you feel must be answered. I don't know if anybody listened to the podcast, or maybe anybody in our studio audience, like, how do you feel? Um if you're in a an intimate relationship or a close friendship, that person might expect, no, no, no, you answer because that's what close people do. We share our feelings with each other. So it can be a little awkward to start to shut down that conversation for a purpose. But in the end, I always use the word discernment, like in the recovery or desensitization process, you learn to be discerning again. Yeah, now I want to talk about my feelings. I know when it's productive and when it's not. I just can't automatically talk about it. Yeah, right. Ask me later. Yeah, and it could be hard for somebody who just cares and wants to have a close, connected relationship with you. How are you feeling? I I don't we know, I don't want to talk about that. But what do you mean you don't want to talk about? What are you hiding? Or this is why you're shutting me out, and you we're supposed to be sharing our burdens and like we're supposed to be feeling together, like uh, but not always, you know. So give me give me 10 minutes and we'll talk about let me get angry and I'll tell you about my anger has that.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

So yeah, someone in the comment in the comments studio audience says, and I can relate to this. It does trigger me a little to be asked how I'm doing, it makes me feel vulnerable and exposed. I can relate to that because it reminds me, it it kind of fast forwards that inwards compulsion, which by the way, if you're not listening to the inwards compulsion episode, it's one of my favorite um episodes, because it triggers that. Oh, it reminds me of the state where I'm inwards feeling anxious. So, yeah, but that's okay. When someone asks you how you're doing, it's be like, yeah. And also, I I'm really passionate about this. If someone asks me how I'm doing, and at that moment in time I'm feeling quite anxious, I still say that I'm doing okay. I'm not lying. Right because I'm trying to teach the brain that anxiety is okay. It is okay. If I get anxious, I'm a little bit anxious now. That's okay. I'm still okay. But when we get into this narrative of any sign of anxiety means I'm not okay, then you're teaching the brain. Yeah. It's uncomfortable. You know, it's like, I don't know, you've just won the lottery and I've kicked you in the shin. And I ask you the moment after I've kicked you in the shin, Drew, how are you doing? On the surface of it, well, I've just won the lottery, but my shin's hurting. I'm doing okay.

SPEAKER_05 16:40

Yeah, sure. If I if I balance these two things, this hurts like hell, but I have a big ass check coming. So, like, it's all good, right? Uh, yeah, I I I get you on that. Like, I'm doing okay. I'm doing okay. Like, I but it's weird because it goes against the narrative that says if we are experiencing discomfort or distress, we must fix that. And the way you fix your feelings is to talk about them, share the burden with somebody. Ah, but yeah, but the problem with an anxiety disorder is we we obsessively, compulsively, and urgently trying to fix every negative internal experience that we have, which perpetuates it. So again, it it's that whole, you know, it's it's it's kind of that whole discernment thing that you learn as you go.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I can also relate to this as well from the studio audience. Um, people don't ask me how I feel anymore, because my autism would give a full breakdown of every single thing I was feeling and why. Because I thought they literally meant how do you feel? I can relate to that so much as well. Or I was like a deer in the headlights, like I don't really know, and that's okay. Yeah. Uh and someone said, Um, so you think that intros this is a good question. So you think that introspection as a as a whole might not be so healthy?

SPEAKER_05 17:54

Well, it's a really good question. There's no black or white answer, it's going to be contextual and situational, right? So, yeah, we all benefit from being reflective and introspective sometimes. There are times for that, and they're good activities to do. They're just not automatically always the right activity to do.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

I have therapy once a week to be introspective, and it's wonderful. Yeah, it's great. But I'm not in the middle of a OCD cycle. And even if I was, you can be introspective, but do it removed.

unknown 18:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

This is where like metacognitive awareness, you can talk about things like being introspective is I'm noticing that I'm being drawn to compulsive behaviors. I'm noticing I'm getting frustrated with that, frustrated with myself. I'm noticing that I have an inner critic. I'm noticing I'm very harsh on myself when it comes to being brave during moments when I'm triggered. That's introspection. Um, but a lot of the time we're taught theories about emotions as well. Like, no, that emotion means something, there's something deeper. I argue with lots of therapists all the time. Like, sometimes there's no feelings don't always point to clues and stuff. Sometimes you can just feel like crap.

SPEAKER_04 19:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:04

You know, like something emotions just go up and down. There's so many variables. You know, you could be hungry and tired, you know, you could be one of it could be you could be grieving, you could be angry at someone, you could be stressed, yeah, you could be all these things. They don't always point to this deep internal meaning. Now, don't go wrong, it's worth exploring sometimes. I definitely see that as as a therapist. Like sometimes if there's a recurring feeling around stuff, then yeah, you know, that sometimes there's things in that, but it's been so ingrained this narrative of get to the root, get to the root, get to the root. And actually, sometimes the answer's right in front of you. I'm afraid of this feeling. I have a phobia of anxiety and its symptoms. That is the root, you know. Um, in my opinion, anyway. Um ever did it anyway.

SPEAKER_05 19:49

Yeah, sure. We can totally do a did it anyway. How about we do this? It's a good one because it involves the dentist, public enemy number one. Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Hi, thank you so much for your podcast. It's truly made me think differently about anxiety. Here's my do-it anyway. I went to the dentist today and spent an hour and a half in the dentist chair. After listening to your podcast about ruminations and worry, I decided not to think about it and just deal with it when I got there. So I got there and I actually had fun talking to the dentist and just concentrating on the moment, just really watching what he was doing and being interested in the the entire thing that was going on at the dentist's office. It really worked for me, not worrying beforehand, not thinking about it until I got there, just dealing with it. So when I got back in my car, I felt like I could do anything. I felt like I'd just conquered a lot of my anxiety. So I just wanted to thank you.

SPEAKER_05 21:10

Love that one.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

Yeah, get in. That was wonderful. Well done. Really good. The dentist public enemy number one.

SPEAKER_05 21:17

100%. Sorry, dentist, but we all hate you. No, we're joking. That was really great.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

I love my dentist, she's great.

SPEAKER_05 21:23

Yeah, I'm really a great dentist. So I, you know, I I think the great thing here is it was the anticipatory state, learning a different way to deal with that. Like, yeah, I'm freaking out about going to the dentist in three days, but it's not happening now. So I'm worried, but I don't have to engage in worrying. So I'm gonna go back to my current life that's happening today, and I will deal with the dentist when I go to the dentist. Save the scary part for the actual scary part. Because you will not solve the dentist next week, today. You can't solve it in your head today. You just got to go do it.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

That's what that applies to men to anything, doesn't it, with the with the words? And it is a skill, though, isn't it? Disenging from anticipatory rheumatic.

SPEAKER_05 22:00

Yeah. Uh but I I love this because I often teach this in my practice. Like we can practice with the anticipatory state. Well, I'm I'm freaking out because I know I have to get on that flight next week. All right, so what are you feeling right now? I'm really afraid. I'm nervous. Okay, well, you're having thoughts about something that you find challenging, and therefore you are upset now. So can you just bring that feeling with you into whatever is next in front of you today? Because you can't solve the future fear. And so people learn to practice being uncomfortable, and the stakes are a little lower because they're not in the airport yet. Okay, but now you're going to bring that exact same process into the airport with you, and it's practice ahead of time. So well done. This dentist trip taught this person a lot. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 22:39

Oh, I liked your summary there. That was very good.

SPEAKER_05 22:42

Yeah, we do it all the time.

SPEAKER_03 22:43

I like I like that little process you do there.

SPEAKER_05 22:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:47

Um, so it works out pretty well. Anyway, um, what else we got on like Let Me Tell You How I Feel?

SPEAKER_03 22:53

So Let me Tell You How I Feel. Um it is a nuanced subject, isn't it? Because you you do want people to tell you how they feel. Like if you've someone with an anxiety disorder, you're let's say you're at the other end of the screen, you've got an anxiety disorder and you are ashamed and you do not want to tell anyone about it, then telling someone how you feel is essential, but not compulsive. So it's like, actually, you know what, I've been struggling with anxiety quite a lot recently. Yeah, that is fine, of course. You're not instantly doing that, you're not you there's a difference between telling someone how you feel zoomed out and telling someone how you feel with the urgent immediacy of instant relief. Yeah, but you might actually feel some holistic relief by letting people know that maybe you're struggling a bit. Yeah, practice. That's completely okay. That's not compulsive, that's wow, that's a lot of weight off my shoulders, you know. Um, because there's a lot of people that listen to this podcast that are like that, of clients. They're people no one knows in their life, they're ashamed, they're afraid, they they're they're high performing, high functioning, you know, and doing all these things. Um, but yeah, like that's completely okay to tell people how how you feel.

SPEAKER_05 24:10

Well, I mean, if you're struggling with like showing vulnerability or humanity, like, oh, it makes me feel weak if I tell people I'm anxious. Yeah, but we will feel weak from time to time. So can we practice allowing that side of us? That's that's productive then. If you start to experiment with sharing that, I do have a safety behavior I'd still do now, though.

SPEAKER_03 24:28

Don't hear it. I tell people how I feel and I encourage you. When I do public speaking, have you noticed? My first sentence is always, hi everyone, I'm feeling anxious. So if I'm shaking and rolling around on the floor, you know why. Uh yeah, and it makes me feel better.

SPEAKER_05 24:45

Yeah. That's like you know, proactively confessing for the incoming behavior. If you see me freaking out, let me just apologize for it right now. I hear you. Um, I think another thing though is on the flip side is the let me tell you how I feel isn't let me never tell you how I feel. So sometimes an anxiety disorder, somebody in the studio audience just said, like, yeah, but I think if I say I'm anxious, it seems like it will make it worse. So a lot of people in our community harbor that fear. If I say it, I will jinx myself and create the feeling. Okay. So if we're avoiding to try to control our internal experience, so it's literally called experiential avoidance, then we have to look at that as well. Sometimes the refusal, I'm not even gonna acknowledge how I feel, but sometimes that gets carried away. And then, like, well, I'm gonna try to minimize my anxiety and not make it the most important thing in the room. Cool. But when I feel angry or guilt or grief or frustration or resentment or whatever other human emotions pop up, I will glue that to my anxiety because I feel bad when I feel guilty. Of course you do. And then I will make that about anxiety, and then I will not say anything about that emotion because I'm not supposed to feel bad at all. And if I talk about it, then I'm not recovering. So it gets so sticky and sometimes convoluted, and we got to tease it apart a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 25:59

Yeah. All emotions have their time to be the most important in the room.

unknown 26:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

Like it's really important. Like, yes, they're shared in the community app, you know. Like we have a section in the app called Non-Axious You. So it's just stuff that you do. We encourage you to share what you do. Sure. When non-anxious you. And I put a uh a photo that I put on my Instagram as well with um uh me and my dad, and I said, But non-anxious me allows feelings of grief to be the most important thing in the room. So everything has its turn. Will I continue to then let grief be the most important thing in the room every day for the rest of the year? No, but we can have their turn. The turn for anxiety to be the most important thing in the room is either you know during exposures or when you're triggered, but then allowing it without resistance, right? Allowing grief without resistance, allowing anger without resistance, you know. Um, although that does sound like you're going on some kind of rage. No, but yeah, that is that is that is without resistance. No, it is okay.

SPEAKER_05 27:04

I mean, sometimes we get angry. Like, I think that's important too. You know, in fact, today uh I'm doing that emotions workshop in the app today at two o'clock Eastern. You won't know because you'll listen to this podcast episode three days after it happened, but nonetheless, it is even anger is allowed. Like, we have to talk about that. Some people will hear things like, well, anger and sadness, those are negative emotions, those are not productive emotions. We should choose other emotions. No, you shouldn't. Like, if you're angry, you are allowed to be angry, you're allowed to be sad, you're allowed to feel guilty, you're allowed to have resentment. Like, yeah, I I have a problem.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

I choose to be happy.

SPEAKER_05 27:40

Yeah, anger is an unproductive, uh or I hear people just all this crazy insta TikTok therapy shit. Like, oh, well, anxiety is just anger. Anxiety is actually really just anger, and anger is a negative, ridiculous, and so just you know, choose happiness and like positivity, look for the good stuff, vibrate higher, and your anxiety would go away. Like, oh, what is going on? Why are we doing this? This is why we can't have nice things.

SPEAKER_03 28:03

That's also just like that's just not how the brain and emotions work.

SPEAKER_05 28:07

No, it's not. It is not. And you know, not to get too geeky because we're not really talking too much about that stuff, but like when you look at all the research that's being done on emotions and how we experience and experience them and what our subjective experiences are, our old concepts of what emotions are were absolutely crazy.

SPEAKER_03 28:26

Like they made it with the old bust thing where they had like people used to think like they've got to do it.

SPEAKER_05 28:33

Yeah, and there are still people who operate on that. Like, oh, this is the part of your brain that does anger, this is the part of your brain that does sadness, this is the part no, that is not true at all. Like, people would think that emotions were somehow like procedures that are waiting for the right stimulus, and bam, well, then my anger circuit went on. That's not the way that works. Because as it turns out, you know, and again, let me tell you how I feel in an anxiety context is I will take every feeling I have and label it and wrap it in anxiety. When really that's not true, because in the end, people who get better still have the same internal experiences, but they label it differently. So emotions are so complicated and they're not automatically windows into the soul, like you know, somehow deep meaning. They reserve, they need to be dug into, they need to be fully felt and experienced, sometimes, but not always.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

I I remember when I was in the middle of feeling anxious, sensitized, whatever. Um I was afraid to feel happy. You know, and then my I was had to explain to my therapist at the time, no, no, no, like that's interpreted, depending on what therapeutic lens or modality, you know, that would interest the therapist, even me. And I would say out loud, I'm afraid to be happy. And and and the therapist's like, why? Like what are you doing? Are you are you you have a big internal critic? Do you have guilt? What is blocking you from happiness? And looking back, the answer was just no, when I get happy, I feel like an intense emotion, and I've associated intense emotions with panic and anxiety. Right.

SPEAKER_05 30:11

How's happy?

SPEAKER_03 30:12

Yeah, and that was it. I'm actually still afraid of fear. Yeah, you know, if I get too excited or too happy, I'll end up not being able to control that. Because what people with anxiety disorders do is that they just chase neutrality. Neutrality, nothing. If I feel calm and null, um, I'm less likely to panic. Yeah, it's all right. That's what it was.

SPEAKER_05 30:34

I need to be flat, like controlled in a very narrow zone. So you your fear would have been what if I get so anxious that I need to be wrestled to the ground and subdued by a team of Icelandic strongmen? But also, what if I get so happy that I need the same Icelandic strongman to subdue me and because I might uh might lose it. I might not be able to keep it keep that under wraps.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and then uh someone in the audience said if I feel happy, my dementiphobia activates. Yeah, same thing. It's okay, go feel happy. Uh on the flip side as well. Um, I have had that question in therapy personally myself. Actually, I'm afraid to be happy, and it is a deeper, more introspective one. Yeah, actually, it was to do with like survivor guilt and stuff like that. So it's very interesting. There's a nuance that you've got to understand. I was afraid to feel happy as an emotion because I'm afraid to panic, yeah, but then zoom out and look at it on a holistic scale. And I is no, I was afraid to be happy because of deeper meanings and blah blah blah. So, yeah, you've got to be careful, particularly with therapists, not everything is uh symbolic. Sometimes the obvious answer is right in front of you. Yeah, um, I'm going to uh read a Did It Anyway. This is uh because I like this one. It's um from the disordered community. Ah um my Did It Anyway this weekend. I went to visit family up north by plane after being asked to be a godfather. You calling me on the deck. Sorry. Even though the anxiety was with me, and I definitely felt a few adrenaline rushes throughout the weekend, I did it anyway and ended up having a great time. Had to stand up in the middle of a church christening service in front of a full congregation, which was scary, but I did it. Note to self, however, don't book a BNB next to an old clock tower that chimes every 15 minutes and all the way through the night.

SPEAKER_05 32:20

Ouch, that's rough. That's why it was so cheap, evidently. Who knew, right? Love it. So good. I love anytime anybody chooses to do something scary, challenge their fear, whatever it is, because they want to do something values-based, like be with family and be involved in that. And you know, I love it. Really, really great. Thanks for sharing that. Um, I have an audio. Want to do another audio? Yeah, let's do an audio, did it anyway. What the heck? Let's live it up. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Hey up, lads. Hey, I'm Simbar. I'm from Old Hum on the outskirts of Greater Manchester in England. I just wanted to show you did it anyway, because it was a great milestone in my recovery journey. And if it helps anyone else out, I'll be happy. So basically, I'll keep it short and simple. My missus is Irish and I'm English, and on the second time going to meet her, um got off the plane, got into a car to meet her parents, and got met with the biggest adrenaline flood I've ever had in my life. Um, ended up having to go to the hospital thinking I'd been drugged on the flight, thinking I was having a heart attack, thinking I was going crazy, all the usual thoughts of when you're having an adrenaline rush for the first time. Um, got on a plane literally the next morning, flew back to England, and entered the sensitized state. I had a couple better time off work, started my recovery, found out about your lad's podcast, which really helped me a lot, and then found out there was a big family wedding going on that I had to go to in Ireland with her family. And this was the cause of my rumination for months. I didn't even think about booking the flight because I thought there's no chance I'll be able to go. I'll pass out during the ceremony and make an idiot of myself. I'll have an anxiety attack and won't even be able to come to the wedding. I won't be I definitely won't be able to do it, but lo and behold, lads, I've just come off the flight and I had probably one of the best weekends I've had in a long while. I even got drunk, which is something I've not done in a while. And end up dancing with the in-laws and making an idiot of myself in all the right ways, and everybody loved me, and I had a great time.

SPEAKER_05 34:33

Oh man, Finn rocked it.

SPEAKER_03 34:37

I love that one so much.

SPEAKER_05 34:39

So great. All the big disasters that anticipatory anxiety always predicts. I I'm sure Finn was a hundred percent sure that he could not do it. That feeling confirmed that this was a bad idea, and as it turns out, he was making an idiot of himself, dancing with in-laws, drinking, and everybody had a great time. So it it was pretty sure that it was right and it was wrong again. Who saw that coming?

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Oh, I love it. Yeah, it was it was brilliant. Well done, Finn. Uh rep had a couple from the Northwest um England on today. So bringing it. That's where it's where the people are at. We get drunk and dance with your in-laws.

SPEAKER_05 35:17

Well, oh, I like how you say that. We get drunk and dance with your in-laws. That makes it vaguely threatening. Any in-laws, it doesn't matter. We are coming for your in-laws, says the North.

unknown 35:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 35:29

So noted. I will make a note of that. Uh really good, really good. Uh, but you know, it's so important to recognize that, like, nope. And then we had another Did It Anyway in the community that I was reading this morning, too, where again, the feeling was so certain. There is no way I can make room for this social event as a person who went to a social event. I'm I'm just not going to do it. I'm not going to be able to handle it, it's going to be terrible. And then came back the next day and updated with like, no, actually, it was one of the best nights I've ever had. So please, if you are listening to us today, please acknowledge the number of times you felt certain that disaster awaited you. And that was wrong.

SPEAKER_03 36:11

How do you feel?

SPEAKER_05 36:12

Don't ask me that. Actually, I feel like my heart is racing because I just pounded a big cup of coffee. So, but that's all right. Yeah. Yeah, it's all right.

unknown 36:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 36:22

Kind of wake up, so it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

Um be wary of your those confessing things. You're making anxiety the most important thing in the room there. Yep. Be wary when you tell people how you feel, if it's around anxiety. Yes. You know? You know, just like, of course, tell people you feel, but if it's compulsive and it's around anxiety, you only tell people if you're anxious or celebrate when you're not anxious. That's still making that one emotion the most important thing in the room, and it's still tail tea teaching. Oh, we're not pressed a button today, have we? Oh, yeah. It's still teaching uh amygdala that it's a threat. So you've got to be, you know, it's still very important. Um, yeah, and if if you've got OCD and you realize actually, I just compulsively have to just tell people, you know, it feels like I feel better, or I'm creating expectations, and I I'm also almost apologizing beforehand before I've even got there, or the events even started, then be wary of that too. You don't need to tell people, it's okay.

SPEAKER_05 37:26

Yeah. Somebody in the studio audience just said, please come after my in-laws. She's all right. Again, noting that too. Um, but people wonder you know an order a drunk bank union. Oh, it could be like Uber Eats, except we deliver an inebriated northern British person to your to your premises and just have at it. Like, whatever you need them to do, they'll do it. Uh people want to know, like, okay. Oh, that's even better. It's a premium if you want them to come in the morning because we got to keep you drunk all night.

SPEAKER_03 37:59

8 a.m. Your in-laws are eating breakfast and toast in the nightgown, and I walk in, wait, get up, come on. Yeah, let's dance, let's throw some shapes.

SPEAKER_05 38:08

Come on. Absolutely. So good. When should you talk about your feelings? If it turns out to be productive, you know, maybe it's a recurring anger or conflict in a relationship, or something is bothering you, and you want to talk about it and things change in your life, or there's some productive outcome, you've done a great job. If you keep looping through the same feelings again and again and again and again because it's urgent and you're just trying to resolve things in the moment and you have to repeat that every single day, yeah, that might be the time to not tell you how I feel. Just saying.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

Yeah. Yeah. Lovely. Thanks, guys. Uh send in your did it anyways questions, etc., to disordered.fm. That's uh where we go through them all and um, yeah, send them all in. We love listening to them. Um, obviously, we can't respond or get through or play all of them, but you know, we do try our best to listen to them. Um, big thank you for the lovely words about the disordered guide to health anxiety. So if you struggle with health anxiety, you can always get that. It's uh by disordered press, and you can get it on Amazon. Um yeah. Anything else, Drew? I think that's it. I guess we'll come back next week. Oh, we've got an upcoming workshop as well, haven't we?

SPEAKER_05 39:17

Um we're doing I'm doing an emotions workshop in the app today. Um, and after we do those, they just stay here forever. People are just watching them again, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

So you can access them afterwards. Yeah, even better. So yes. Cool.

SPEAKER_05 39:31

All right, dude.

SPEAKER_03 39:32

Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 39:32

All right, we'll be back next week. Thanks for hanging out.