Failing and Bailing on Anxiety Exposures? (Episode 149)

SPEAKER_02 0:01

An exposure is when you deliberately evoke an anxious response. You feel all the symptoms, the thoughts, the what if thoughts, the crazy symptoms, the sensations, because that's how we rewire that. That's an anxious exposure. And practicing being triggered now and putting in the response prevention part of it.

SPEAKER_01 0:19

People say, Well, what do you do when you fail at an exposure or you bail out? Define failing. If you go to do an exposure and you get really anxious in the exposure, that is not failing. That's what the exposure is for.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

But if you know you get overwhelmed, you're like, oh no, I just can't do this. I'll go back and do it tomorrow. It's not the end of the world. What it does tell you is that you need to be compassionate.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

It's like I'm doing it today. This is the day that I tell anxiety to go to hell, and then you get really scared in the moment and you might bail. But okay, you at least changed your willingness. Attitude shift is starting to happen, right? Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 149 of the podcast. We are talking about failing and bailing on exposures today. I am Drew Linsolata, one half of Disordered. I'm a therapist that treats anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York and the US of A, former sufferer of the things we talk about on this podcast, an author on the topic, psychoeducator, podcaster, clearly, because I'm here doing it. And uh yeah, we're gonna talk about failing and bailing on exposures.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

It's a really good topic, and with me as always is I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist based in Manchester in the UK, specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm a previous sufferer, author on the topic, podcaster like this fella. And my hair looks horrendous today. I'm really sorry. No, you're looking good. And going to the gym in a bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

That's cool. Nobody in the gym cares what your hair looks like. It's totally fine. Yeah, they do. Yeah. So failing and bailing on exposures. It was suggested in our little disordered community, which is this awesome little space that we got. Somebody wanted us to talk about that. And I think it's a really great topic. What happens when you are doing an exposure? Well, let's talk about what an exposure is first. Mightn't we do a little review of that? What do you what how do you define an exposure? What do you think an exposure is, dude?

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Cool. Yeah. An exposure is when you almost mostly deliberately uh evoke an anxious response. When you light up the threat response, you feel anxious, you activate and light up the amygdala. And you feel all the symptoms, the thoughts, the what if thoughts, the crazy symptoms, the sensations. And you do it with intentionality because that's how we rewire that. That's an anxious exposure. We teach the brain, look, this is this, we're willing to feel scared to teach you that nothing bad happens. So you rewire yourself. You can have intentional planned exposures, or if you've got OCD, sometimes the exposure comes to you when you sat there watching television and suddenly, bang, you get an intrusive thought. Well, there you go, you got an exposure. That could be an exposure for you, you know, and that's it, it depends. It's basically the moment we are triggered, and an exposure is right. I'm practicing being triggered now and putting in the response prevention part of it, you know, to teach the brain this is safe. So that I think would um define an exposure. Or my old neighbor, when I lived in Cheltenham, got done for exposure uh when I was growing up and was arrested for a year. That's the not the type of exposure we're going to be talking about today.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

That's a different type of exposure. Somebody in the app the other day said that they had done an exposure at the zoo or some public venue, and the person's partner said, Hey, great job exposing yourself. And everybody turned around and looked. What is happening at this community zoo? Uh, it's really great.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

I will I still laugh at it now.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

I know it's ridiculous, right? But like, good job exposing myself.

SPEAKER_02 3:44

I used to say it's my mom, like, when I had agrophobia, I'm going out to expose myself. She's like, not again.

SPEAKER_01 3:51

I thought we were over this, Josh. Like we're running out of bail money in the family. I the only thing I want to add to your definition, which was a perfect definition, is the reason why we do exposures is not to learn to not be anxious. So that is, I think, one of the most common misconceptions. Even in my therapy practice, people have been listening for years. They come and work with me personally. And the first time we do an exposure together, they are breaking out all of the coping and calming skills because their previous therapists taught them to do exposures and calm down at the same time. Like, so they think that exposure is I learned this is how I learned to drive without panicking, or this is how I learn how to, you know, whatever, eat a food I'm scared of without panicking. No, that's not what that's for.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Oh, oh, I did that. Did you ever do this when you were first doing it? I I the term white knuckling. So I'd go stand like go into a work meeting or something and stare at the clock, and I'm I'd be like, I'm doing my exposure. Yeah. All I'm doing is counting down the moments till I can get out of there.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yeah, without the willingness.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

Ripping the table 100%.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

I would do that constantly. I was just pushing another term we might use would be was white knuckling or pushing through or hanging on. I'm just hanging on to the end of this so I could get out of this situation and back to the situation I think is safer or that I can handle. That's not necessarily exposure. Exposure is intentional, it has a reason behind it, and you're doing it so that I can learn to experience this thing that I hate and fear so much in a better way. Got to get better at being anxious and panicky. That's what the exposure is for. So when we people say, Well, what do you do when you fail at an exposure? Or you bail out? Okay, good question. Uh, and we do need to talk about that. But define failing. If you go to do an exposure and you get really anxious in the exposure, that is not failing. That's what the exposure is for. So sometimes you just have to adjust your expectations.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah. Yeah. No, I hear you on that. I hear you on that.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Did you have exposures that you felt like you failed, or did you bail on your exposures back in the day?

SPEAKER_02 5:43

Yeah, because when you got uh a friend, what's he called? Craig Craig.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Oh, yeah, he's around all the time. It's Craig the Critic.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

A lot of an exposure is dictated by the inner critic, you know, and well, this uh Craig the Critic will come up a lot in today's episode because failing and bailing instead is it's your interpretation. I remember when I was doing um exposures to flying, and the exposure was you know, go to the airport and look at the plane, and I managed to get through the airport and look at the plane many years ago. Uh and it was it was just it was a step too far to actually get on the plane. And I come home and I'd be like, Oh, failed, I couldn't get on a plane, I'm a piece of crap, blah blah blah. I remember like a therapist at the time's like, you did your homework. That was the homework to go to the airport, you know. And I'm just like, but but I bailed on my exposure. I was like, no, that was the exposure. I have bailed a few times on exposures, yeah. I just felt, ooh, you know, looking back, they weren't failures because I think my perfectionism was like, no, you must do it flawlessly. I've done some exposures that are messy but still a success. You know, um, I remember one on the London Underground where I get on the tube, and then I remember getting off because I felt I was wit counting down to the next stop. I got off, and then I was like, no, no, no, no, get back on again. I was like, oh fine, I'll go back on again. And there was a lot of getting on and getting off, and then I was on again, and then I stayed on for two, and it's it's it's messy, it's fine, you know. Um, but yeah, I think bailing is when you like, okay, maybe not today, maybe later, maybe tomorrow, you know, but I will try at least later, and I will try tomorrow. I think um yeah, yeah, bailing. What about you? Yeah, I've bailed.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

Oh god, so many times. I mean, I and I think I was a little bit guilty of I would go out and do an exposure which might be dry. It was mostly driving for me, to be honest with you. Although we do stay-at-home alone exposures too, on purpose. And I there were times when I would get in the car, and it was especially in the beginning, I didn't really fully understand the part yet where I had to be willing. No, no, no, I'm going out to panic, not to drive. That was a hard sell in my own mind. Like, this is nothing to do with driving. Driving is just the thing that triggers it. And I would get in the car and try to use all the things, the breathing. I would slow my breathing down, I would do box breathing while I'm driving, and it just wasn't working out at all. And then there were definitely times when I would plan, like today, I'm going past that point. I'm gonna push it today. And I just I would get so scared that I would run back home. And initially I would end the exposure, which was kind of a bail and fail in my retrospect. But then over time I got to do messy exposures like you were doing. Go back home. Like, all right, hang on, I'm not going in the house. I gotta keep going here, you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

So and what about exposures, non-planned exposures, particularly for OCD? You don't have a choice, like Yeah, well, you can because sometimes you sit down and all right, next time I get triggered of an intrusive thought, that's when the exposure begins. That's when my homework begins. I often say that in my practice. And then so you can start with all intentions to be like, right, I'm gonna be with the thought, not argue with it, not ruminate, not seek reassurance, not I'll do all these things, because that's the exposure for non-plan, that's for OCD exposure. Right. Where you are just sat there doing your golden rules, doing what non-anxious you would do while scared, and not making it the most important thing in the room. That is the exposure for OCD. Yeah. Those rules, you know. Can you bail on that? Yes. Back when I was really bad with OCD, I knew that if I poured myself a beer, I'd feel better. That's me bailing on the exposure. Absolutely. Yeah, I don't do that now, but you know, that's an example of how you can bail and fail on those types of exposures. Because anxiety disorders aren't just, you know, walk past the lamppost. It's wherever you feel triggered, yeah, and you resist and compulse and just in-case behaviors, you know, it's about that. It's about just taking away the just in-case behaviors one at a time, and that's what makes a good exposure. Now, a good exposure might be, well, I had 10 just-in-case behaviors, but now I've only got five.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Yeah, that's win.

SPEAKER_02 9:52

Yeah, and then I've only got three. Now the last thing is I don't know my husband. He's there just in case. Yep. Well, then maybe do it. That's the last one. They're all building up and stuff like that. But if you know you get overwhelmed, you're like, oh no, I just can't do this, I'll go back and do it tomorrow. It's fine. Not the end of the world. What it does tell you is that you need to be compassionate.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Yeah. And I I suspect that I mean, uh, you only get to decide, only you get to decide whether you have failed and bailed on an exposure, but if your intention is at least shifting. So it's like you're right, in OCD, especially GAD, you may have moments where you don't get to pick when the exposure is going to happen because we can't decide when a thought will happen or not. So if there are triggering thoughts or triggering worries, well, okay, I'm in an exposure. And with the best of intention, you could wake up today and say, you know what, if that thought pops in, or my worry bug starts to pop up, I'm gonna do it this way, the guy that I listen to the podcast, they tell me what to do, or my therapist gave me, you know, strategy we're gonna use to eliminate my response. In the moment, how many times have we heard people say, Yeah, but when it hits me, it all went out the window? If you can at least start to have the intention to willingly accept that experience, that's even a win. Now you just might whatever way you get to the point where you take that brave leap of faith and don't do the saving thing, which is the fail and bail, that's a win too. You know, it's really hard to everybody, you know what? Mike Tyson said everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. And that is true in this thing we do too. You can be like, all right, I'm doing it. Like, I'm doing it today. This is the day that I tell anxiety to go to hell, and I just I do this exposure, and then you get really scared in the moment, and that's the punch in the face moment, and you might bail. But okay, you at least changed your willingness, attitude shift is starting to happen, right?

SPEAKER_02 11:36

The homework starts when you get punched in the face. Yeah. Do we have any uh examples of that in the community?

SPEAKER_01 11:42

We actually do. So let's I want to read one from the community. Uh, of course, I'm not gonna say the person's name, but this is from a few days ago. This person says, Food has been one of my biggest triggers for years. The fear I have developed around it all had me down to eating only 10 foods. I've added so much food since listening to the podcast, it's amazing. My did it anyway is yesterday was my son's 21st birthday. There were 21 of us that went to lunch at a hibachi restaurant to celebrate. In the past, I would have bought my own food and been so upset watching everybody eat that I literally would have cried. Well, I decided to just eat. I ate an egg roll, some sushi, and all the food they made with the sauces. Here's the punch in the face moment. My body was going crazy for sure, and I got a little worried for a few seconds, but I focused on the conversation and just kept eating. My body did calm down when I didn't give it the attention and I lived through it all. Thank you so much, guys.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

I love that. That's absolutely brilliant. Yeah, that was that the exposure started then. Well, yeah. Oh, I love a hibachi grill, by the way. I really want one now. I know, I would totally go there right now.

SPEAKER_01 12:54

But yeah, that was the moment. That that the moment was, no, no, no. I don't want to do so. The plan was everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. I don't want to bring my own food and miss out on this experience. I it it's more important to me to participate fully in the experience than the punch in the face came. I ate the sushi, and ah, all the things came up in my body, in my mind, and I went back to my plan and participated in the experience. Huge win, giant win. So the sushi was never the exposure. That wasn't the exposure. The feeling after the sushi was the exposure.

SPEAKER_02 13:24

Excellent. I've got another one, uh, another good did it anyway sent in at disordered.fm. All right, let's bring it up. If you want to send all these in, you can send in at disordered.fm, or you can put them in the did it anyway chat on in the community app. But here's one descent to disordered.fm, which I really like. Um, we must uh pinpoint the punch in the face moment. It's a good game. I like I like this game. Yeah, it's a good graphic. Um hi Drew and Josh. I recently discovered your podcast and I am loving listening to it. I would love to share my data anyway. Um I they didn't give permission to use the name, but here we go. I have health anxiety and I am 31 years old, currently going through perimenopause, which is a life-changing experience in itself. Perimenopause is a tough time to navigate for someone with health anxiety, as each day being b begins a new scary symptom which I've never experienced before. One of the symptoms I developed was having hypoglycemic episodes and insulin resistance due to my fluctuating hormone levels. My did it anyway happened when I was invited to my nephew's birthday party. I've had a long, tiring week. I was feeling run down and anxious about a few things going on in my life. I was going to not go to the party, but my kids were desperate to go. So I ended up going. While I was there, I started feeling unwell and had a hypoglycemic episode. I had a massive adrenaline rush. And my initial reaction, there's the punch. My initial reaction was to run, go home, hide, reach for my safety snacks in my backpack that I carry in air quotes just in case. But I told myself not to panic. My body just feels a little over exerted. Normally, I'd be embarrassed to admit I was having anxiety or not feeling well for fear of people judging me. But I stayed calm and just voiced what I was feeling, and if I could have a sugary drink. After a couple of minutes, the adrenaline eased off and I stopped feeling unwell. I even managed to have fun and socialize at the party and not turn inwards for the whole time I was there. We were the last people to leave, in fact, and I felt proud of myself for tolerating the anxiety and uncertainty. I feel like I even rewired my brain as I no longer fear feeling this way in public anymore. Thank you for everything you do, and and for the disordered community. Your podcast has helped in my journey to recovery. Oh, love it. So many things in that I loved, loved it, compassion, the reacting to it, being honest, not trying to hide, not afraid of shame. Oh my gosh, it was that that was that was brilliant. I loved all that. That was spot on. A good thumbs up from us.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

A lot of layers there for sure. The punch in the face moment was I had a big adrenaline rush. That was that was the moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Um, and that's I love how they use the terminology as well, this person. You've obviously been listening, and yeah, you know, sometimes we come out with something half decent and you've uh uh and you've applied that. And I'm so glad you've done it. And you have literally rewired your brain.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Yeah, yeah, that experience is what we learn from. The reason why we do an exposure, and this person chose to like hang on a second here. I'm not gonna go into freak out mode like SpongeBob and Patrick running around. I'm gonna take a measured, more values-driven, realistic response to this. And in that situation, this person is dealing with an actual physiological thing. There's some hormonal things happening, and she needed a sugary drink, which is it could happen to people. So I'm gonna just ask for the sugary drink. This is what I need. The panic part I don't need. That doesn't serve me at all.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Yeah, she separated it so well as well. Like really great. Well, I noticed on hyperglycemia, because we get a lot of people, you know, anxiety disorders exist alongside things like hormonal issues, diabetes, uh ongoing issues, chronic conditions. What a fantastic distinguishing between what do I need? Yeah, what is anxiety disorder. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

So that I love it. That that threat response that we talk about all the time thinks it's serving a purpose, it's misapplied in an anxiety disorder. Hey, we feel something we we hate and fear, so let me launch the panic missiles here because we need that. No, actually, we don't need that part. We just need a more reasoned response that involves taking a drink to manage my blood sugar levels because I have to do that. Oh, says your brain over time when you repeat that. I guess we don't need the panic missiles in that situation. No problem. I'll keep them in the silos until I really do need them. Thank you, brain. Like, you know, they're very oversimplified, but that's why we do exposures to learn that your brain could take its button off the off the launch, you know. No, no, I don't need to have my finger on the launch button all the time. So it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 18:11

Yeah, really good. That is so cool. Uh yeah, really, really, really good one. But I mean, they're all good. There's no wind that's too small, but I I love how layered that was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

So what happens when you I I literally I think it's in when I wrote The Anxious Truth, I think I have that. I have a thing called the Bad Day. Can you believe it? I don't remember what's in my own book sometimes. But like I literally talked about having a bad day playbook. And I've talked about this on all episodes of the of The Anxious Truth. What happens? What do you do when you fail in bail? Which can happen to all of us. It happened to us too. Like you, I think you had a great example when you got off the the underground and then got back on again. So what do you do when you fail in bail?

SPEAKER_02 18:50

The first thing is to not immediately tune into Greg the critic. Yeah, I agree. Because that's the first voice that's gonna be there, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Yeah, straight in.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Straight in. Yeah. Oh, he's just waiting.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Yeah, just waiting, waiting, waiting, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:07

You can't do it. You're different, you're the exception, you're special. And even though you've done loads of brave things all your life, it's completely illogical. That one, when you fail in bail, don't listen to radio. Someone's gonna take the radio knob, volume dial, and you're gonna hear Craig the Crick Critic FM a thousand decibels. Just shoot out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:33

Yeah, that's a tough one. And I think in that situation, mine was awful. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, how do you counter that? Well, it's hard to count. I mean, as you start with like recognizing, I always like to tell people, hey, the first thing you gotta do is recognize what you're experiencing. I was so scared that I did what a scared person does, which would be expected. Hello. If this was easy, be terrified, but not take action, we wouldn't have a podcast because everybody would just read one sentence and like get better instantly, but it's not that easy. So I tried to do a really scary thing and I got scared enough to do what scared people do. All right, start there. You're allowed to have that response. I'm trying to do a really hard thing.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

If you're anxious, the five magic words to be anxiety. She says, What if it turns out okay?

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Oh, but what if you still what if I crash? Oh dear, but what if you fly? Can you hear the venom in my voice when I say that? That is the worst shit to say to anxious people because they will try to convince themselves that let's just turn a horrible, difficult experience. We are legitimately trying to ignore your survival mechanism into some sort of positivity. But what if you fly? Fly. I thought for sure I was literally disintegrating behind the wheel. There was no flying in that, only terror that I had to learn to work through. Come on, people.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Also, I don't like heights. I don't want to fly.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

I like it on the ground. Stop telling me to fly, man.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

But you know, so what if you fly? I'm afraid of flying.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

I'm afraid of flying. Shut up, man. Don't tell me to fly. I hear you. So the compassion and you know, countering the Craig the Critic is starts with like, I am trying to do a really hard thing, man. And if it is hard for me today, that is allowed. You would never criticize your kids or your partner or your friends or your loved ones for struggling to learn to do a really hard thing. So start there and have the feelings. I'm frustrated, I'm angry, maybe I'm disappointed. You're allowed to have those feelings. Just don't build a cottage around them and move in for three months.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

Yeah. That's a tough one. I like to tell people to have a plan. The bad day playbook is because you're not thinking very clearly in those moments. I would get so upset when I would fail in bail that I would legitimately like I would I was not thinking clearly at all because I was angry, I was frustrated, I was impatient, I was afraid. You're not making good choices in those moments. So the bad day playbook for me was like if I if I hit a fail moment, I literally go. To this playbook. That's what American football teams have a playbook. They know in any given situation in a game, we run one of these four plays. So they don't have to think in the in the heat of the moment. We do that.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

What are those American football games like four hours long?

SPEAKER_01 22:14

And they got headsets and there's cameras and iPads now. Like they are running their playbooks. So they already know in this situation, this is in this particular game situation, we've already planned this out. I can run one of these three plays. They don't have to make it up on the fly. An anxious person is terrible at making shit up on the fly. So I had to go to my bad day playbook first, acknowledge the emotions I'm having because they're valid, express them any way I need to, lick my wounds, and then do it again. Or repeat another exposure that you had success with. It doesn't matter anything but going back to the sofa and like just looping through this sucks, this sucks, this is horrible. I failed, I'm the worst, I'm never gonna get better.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

Oh, yeah, don't compulsively ruminate and listen to that stuff. Yeah. Just instead, just be like, again.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Yeah, a little bit. Sleep on it again. You in a way, and this is the part where I mean, I one of the reasons why somebody suggested I call my podcast The Anxious Truth was, you know, there was that, oh, he's the tough love guy. Not really. This is not tough love. But admittedly, there's a little bit of Arley Erm, like full metal jacket in this process.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

That's you are more you are more tough lover than I'm not sure. A little bit, but there's a little bit of that. You can do it.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

You can do it. Well, that's true. And and I'm a big fan of it. Do it again, maggot. Like, you know, there's a there's a little bit of that that has to, I think a little bit of snarl has to enter into it sometimes. Like, no, no, no, we're doing this again. You're doing this again. It's this that Ozark scene. If you're gonna stop me, then you're gonna have to effing kill me. You know, she screams into the camera. So a little bit of that, like express your emotions, lick your wounds, you're allowed to do that, and then have a plan for what you do next. Don't make it up on the fly, otherwise, you will berate yourself and feel terrible.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

No. Also, arguably as well, if you did loads of exposures and they all went perfectly, what have you learned? Yeah, nothing. Right. That's true. You the parad another paradox, you have to have exposures that suck and don't work.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:14

In order to learn from it.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Well, one of the rules that we tend to live by in exposure, if at all possible, we never want to leave at the peak of the discomfort. Like we try to never do that. Now, everybody does it. I did it, you did it, everybody's gonna do it. It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 24:28

Oh, I've done it loads of times.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Oh, yeah, tons of times. That's the moment where you're most likely to bail, is at the peak of the discomfort. We want to get through that. We don't have to go back down to zero, but we want to get over the peak and then exit on our own terms. And I think the thing that's really difficult about that is that is how you can look back and learn. We want to learn something from it. So we need it to be really hard and messy and scary and all that stuff. You get through the peak and you leave on the back end on your own terms. That is super messy, so hard to do, and we'll feel like a failure. That's the win. That's the better one.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

I like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

That's a better one. You gotta go through the peak. Yeah. If you leave before the peak, then do it again.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

My peak was always, what if this is you forever?

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Sure. Okay, there you go. That was yours, right? I thought I had all that off. Evidently, I don't. Sorry. Um, I can't hear anything. Oh, you didn't hear it? Good. Okay. Um, yeah. So everybody has their own peak moment. What if it's actually a heart attack? What if it's really a stroke? What if I go crazy this time? I can't handle this, I'm overwhelmed. What if this is you forever? That was yours, huh?

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Yeah, someone in the comments put tough love is the approach for me. I appreciate it. Give me any wiggle room and I will justify all day long.

SPEAKER_03 25:38

I have no idea.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

I'm not I'm more of just that code. Like, I'm like the I'm the Ted Lasso of therapists, and like, you know, believe you can do it. Believe the sign, you know, go out there, you believe you can do it. You know, it's all good.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

I was always fond of saying in the you know, and it's I think we have very complimentary approaches. In the end, we're doing the same thing. But I used to tell people all the time, especially when it comes to like there's a tough one. I literally wrote no days off, no self-compassion. I'm so sorry I wrote that when I wrote an anxiety story. I should never have written that like that. We've talked about this. But I think I contend that if you give an anxious person the choice between doing something scary and taking a me day with Epsom salt baths and lavender, they will have nothing wrong with them.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

I I love a me day.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Oh, yeah, there's nothing like that. I'm taking your me days. I'm coming for your me days, Maggot. No, it's just like turning into WWE promo again. Five suicides, 14 laps. Oh my god, Josh Fletcher, you and me in Madison Square Garden next week, buddy. No, like this is definitely a wrestling promo, but like I really think it's important that the an anxious mind will want to default automatically to we I just need a self-care day, but you've taken 15 in a row. Like sometimes we have to. A nice thing to do is yeah, I know I really want to go back to the car this alpha right now because I bailed in this exposure, I feel terrible. But is that the kindest thing for me to do for myself? So, you know, make your plan. Give yourself a few options. If I fail in exposure, here are my three options. I run one of those. And if you intentionally pick the sofa and the lavender oil, you intentionally picked it. Good. That counts. That's fine. I have no problem with that.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

I put I put magnesium flakes in my bath. Does that help? As well as corn flakes. As well as corn flakes.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

It gets so soggy though. Then I gotta get the pictures after. Nobody knows that part.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Do we have any audio did it anyway?

SPEAKER_01 27:35

We do have an audio did it anyway, and let's see if we can find the punch in the face moment in this one. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Hi, Drew and Josh. My name's Ruth. I'm originally from Manchester, but I currently live in New Zealand. We moved here about 12 months ago, and since I've been really struggling with anxiety, with so much change, new beginnings, and not very great support network here. Um, the anxiety has um really been present in my life. But thanks to you guys, your podcasts, some one-on-one therapy, um, I've been managing it heaps better. Um, and it's been a really refreshing way to think about um anxiety. So thank you for that. Um, I've also been struggling with migraines and do have some real anxiety around medication, taking medication and side effects. Um, but this evening I did it anyway. I began the medication for migraines, I didn't Google the side effects, and um I took it whilst being alone in the house as well. Um, so I'm just um yeah, I'm just sending in this message to say I did it anyway, and thanks for all the support that you give to um everybody um with anxiety and anxiety disorders. Thanks. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 28:57

Go, Ruth.

SPEAKER_02 28:59

Go, Ruth. That was amazing. Um, I love I love the and I did it on my own. Yeah, that was the Ruth wanted the credit for that. Yeah, that's brilliant. That's the willingness.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

That's the I'm going to go be trigger myself. I'll take the medication while I'm alone, but then I'm not gonna do the Google. I'm not doing googling side effects, I'm just gonna feel scared.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

It was also really nice to hear from Mancunion on the podcast. We need more of that.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Yeah, we hear from one every week. I think people are tired of it, no?

SPEAKER_02 29:33

No, well done. That's so good, Ruth. And I hope everything's okay. You will habituate to living in New Zealand. Um, and I hope it's wonderful over there. You'll do it, you're doing the right thing. Apply that principle that you did with the meds to everyday life in New Zealand. And to be honest, you're gonna feel a bit unstable, you're gonna feel a bit anxious. You've literally moved to the other side of the world, you know. You couldn't have moved further away from home if you tried, you know. So it's gonna take some some uh you know, some bedding in, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

If you're from Manchester and you go to New Zealand, if you take one more step, you're going back home.

SPEAKER_02 30:08

Think about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Oh no, I think it's Australia, actually. Might be. There's a moment where you are legitimately if you drill a hole.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

If you drill a hole now, if I started drilling a hole, yeah, directly downwards, I would end up in Australia.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

You're gonna come back in Perth or something. And then if you keep going, you're actually going back home. So really weird, right? The beauty of living in a globe, which it is a globe, by the way. If there are any flat earthers listening, it's round, it's a globe. Anyway. Um But how do you know? How do you know? How do you know it's round? My you know, my favorite flat earth experiment was and they uh you know what? Full credit to the guys, they put it on their YouTube. They did an experiment with the flashlight and the did you ever see that? They were like, we're gonna prove this once and for all. Two, two like plywood things like 12 feet tall with holes cut in them. One guy sits here, one guy goes about a mile down the road, a huge torch flashlight, and okay, we're gonna shine the light. Can you see the light? Yeah. If the earth is round, like all these crazy people say, we know it's truly fat, flat, the he will walk away and still see the flashlight. And as the guy walked away, sure enough, the beam of the flashlight started going over the plywood. And the guy, all I just remember the guy answering with like, hmm, interesting. Like his entire worldview was challenged on the spot. And he, full credit, he published the video anyway. It was interesting. But in a way, that is a perfect example of what an exposure might look like. That dude was sure that when his buddy kept walking, I got this, man. The flashlight beam is gonna stay straight because the earth is flat. But he was he tried something different, he got a different response.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

And it's I love how you're tenuously linking this back to the Oh no, hang in there. I'm gonna cement it.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

This is gonna be good, I tell you. He got what he didn't expect. He did what he thought would be okay or not okay. He tried something a little bit different. I'll put my money where my mouth is, and then he got a different result, but he was willing to accept the result. So, those of you who are listening who feel like I did an exposure, but I was anxious, so it's terrible, it's awful. Well, wait a minute, is that the only interpretation? How about interesting? I was able to do it, I can handle it.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

Welcome to episode 156 of disorders, where we depunk conspiracies starting with 5G radiation. Um and then tenuously link it back to anxiety disorders.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

I felt like I had gone so far out on a tangent that I had to somehow try to bring it back in. I don't know if I succeeded or not. Just remember me, right? So, anyway, what else can we say about failing and bailing on exposures?

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Anything like so good. Failing's part of it, bailing's part of it. My message is don't listen to Craig the Critic and Again, do it again.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Wake up again, yeah. Do it again.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Yeah, but the guy from Kickboxer, which I'm finally glad you've seen now. I love that movie. Life changing, life-changing thing. It's both the best and worst thing I've ever seen simultaneously. It is a beautiful example of how two things can exist at once. The best movie and the worst movie at the same time. It's so good.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

That's a good point. That's a really good point. In our uh the the live audience, we do have a live audience in the app. We're getting flat earth emojis. I mean, you guys, come on, this is rising to the occasion all day long. I love it. Yeah. Uh anyway. All right, I guess we'll wrap it up. I got 13 minutes to start practice today, so I gotta see client very shortly.

SPEAKER_02 33:22

But where can people leave a voice? No.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

I would suggest you go to disorder.fm. You can hit the little blue thing on the website and record a voice note. They do cut off after two minutes, just keep that in mind. Or you could send in a written or an email or a message or whatever. Um, we'd love to hear from all you guys.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

Amazing. Also, as well, there is um, if you don't mind me saying, Drew, yeah, the hardback of my next book, same time next week, Living with Anxiety in the Modern World, is out in May. And I'm doing a special pre-order offer. So if people pre-order the hardback, then email me proof of purchase to my email. Uh, I will you will get a free morning anxiety audio read by me, which is just basically two minutes of me going, okay, it's not uh uh a morning anxiety audio to stop you ruminating, particularly for those who lie in bed and they ruminate and stew, you know. But might as well put me on instead. And you get an entire e-book on intrusive thoughts. Unravel your intrusive thoughts. I will send you them both with um just it, and so if you fancy supporting me, I'll talk more about the book in the next episode because I'm really excited about it. Yeah, but um, yeah, if you want those goodies, just email over and I'll email it you back personally.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Love it. Just keep in mind that the book is only being released in the UK right now, right?

SPEAKER_02 34:38

So if you're anywhere else, no, it's shipped from the UK. Oh, love it.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

So you can order it. Okay. Yeah, that's really easy.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

Yeah, you might have to pay the extra shipping fee. I don't know, five bucks somewhere, but it's there, you know. So it's really good if you like reading, or if you have a wonky table. And you just need to level it. Slide it under there. And sure. Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Now, here's the bad news. If you don't pre-order Josh's book, he will send you a picture of him getting out of the bath covered in magnesium and corn flakes. So get that. Get the book. You don't want the picture. I promise. You don't want it.

SPEAKER_02 35:06

How would that even work? Like whatever, whatever list, whatever list of people that didn't order the book. Send me the book. Isn't that like seven billion?

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Yeah, that would probably yes, that's exactly right. So I need seven billion people need to see this. Order the book, please. Oh god. Anyway, thanks for listening, guys. We appreciate you. We'll come back next week and do another one about something.

SPEAKER_02 35:28

Yeah, sounds cool, guys. I'll catch you soon and we'll see you next Friday.