Learning To Be Bored in Anxiety Recovery (Episode 81)

SPEAKER_03 0:00

If you catch yourself daydreaming and bored and you're clicking your fingers and you're just a bit like, I'm just a bit bored, that's a good thing. But for a lot of people, they either struggle with it or they've got to the point where they're being bored and they're like, Well, what do I do now? And there must be something else to do. No, I invite you to learn to be bored.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Left to our own devices. We've talked about this before, the brain will default, they call it the default mode network, to thinking about ourselves. It's self-referential. When bored, that mode kicks in and then it gets carried away. How come I'm bored? What do I have to do? What do I do now? Like it becomes an urgent thing.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

This is where the phrase sit with it does apply. Yeah, learning to do these like low-level, low-intensity existing.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

That needs to go with a t-shirt or a mug. I'm practicing low intensity existence. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 81 of the podcast. Today we're talking about learning to be bored. I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist practicing under supervision in the state of New York, specializing in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders. I am a three-time author on this topic. I am a past sufferer. I am clearly a podcaster because I'm here today, an advocate, social media dude, all around goofball, and uh yeah, happy to be here for episode 81.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

And with me as always is I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm a previous sufferer, podcast host, content creator, and author of several self-help books.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

And good books they are too.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Thank you. Thank you very much. Oh, you made me feel bad because today's episode is about learning to be bored. And my first piece of advice was to be I learned to be bored by tuning into the anxious truth podcast. But now, because you've been nice, that's I just okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

So there's a plug then. If you're new to disorder, what Josh is talking about is the anxious truth, which is the podcast I do on my own and have been for 10 years. So go check that out. Anyway, um today we're gonna talk about I think I slip I slipped it in. I'm getting better. I'm learning.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

No, you yeah, oh yeah, you're shameless plug.

SPEAKER_02 2:08

I'm learning, it's fun being bored. I think one of the hardest things that people in the recovery process have to learn how to do is sit and do nothing.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was in response to a question we got sent in. So, yeah, if you ever want to send in questions or uh either audio or or um through email, uh, or send in your did it anyways as well. You can do that at disordered.fm. Um but yeah, this was in this today's topic was in in response to the question uh from a question sender inner. Uh it was um dear Josh and Drew. First of first of all, thanks for your podcasts. They've been immensely helpful, and I've been whilst I've been struggling, still waiting for my first appointment with a therapist. My question is in recovery from anxiety, what should you do when you have nothing to do? I've been getting better at taking my anxiety fears and negative feelings along for the ride and doing it anyway. I have felt good after that and felt like it has helped my confidence. But often I feel quite low and anxious at times of the day when I'm not sure what to do next. Maybe I feel a bit tired and bored, and maybe a wee bit scared of being left with my own thoughts. I know that that a good choice would be to continue with my day, but then I don't have any plans and I feel stuck in indecisiveness about how to move forward with acceptance. So what should I do when I have nothing to do? And that's thank you from R. Great question, R.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Thank you for sending it in, appreciate it. What did you do when you had nothing to do?

SPEAKER_03 3:47

Um it's a good one because well I I love this question because if you find yourself bored, you're doing brilliant. That's it. If you find yourself daydreaming, you're doing brilliant. People with anxiety disorders are often default often default to a state of hypervigilance or a state of threat monitoring, or the habit is to check or ruminate or or do something compulsively, and recovery itself can fall into that as well. Learning to be bored is very like essential. It's because it's so alien to feel sitting there with nothing to do, and because of habit and because of neuropathways and things like that, often that default mode network is to go inwards. How are we doing? How's the anxiety? What can I do next? How can I sequence this form or narrative of recovery? But if you catch yourself daydreaming and bored and you're clicking your fingers and you're just a bit like, I'm just a bit bored, that's a good thing. Yeah, but for a lot of people, they either struggle with it or they've got to the point where they're being bored, like the question center in are, and they're like, Oh, what do I do now? There must be something else to do. No, I invite you to learn to be bored.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Yeah, I I would agree with that 100%. It's interesting because left to our own devices. We've talked about this before, the brain will default, they call it the default mode network, to thinking about ourselves. It's self-referential, not in a like a narcissistic or self-centered kind of way. It's just usually thoughts about me. You know, what am I gonna do today? What am I having a good day? I I'm looking, I'm looking forward to the concert next week, whatever. Like, we think about ourselves. An anxious person doesn't is so stuck thinking about themselves that sometimes when bored, that mode kicks in and then it gets carried away, you know, like, oh now I have to really how come I'm not anxious? What is it about? Well, what how come I'm bored? What do I have to do? What do I do now? Like it becomes an urgent thing where as opposed to the rest of us that just thinks ridiculous self-referential stuff that has no bearing on life most of the time.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

Yeah, yeah. So it also feels like a a low-level anxiety as well, which is something that we still apply the principles to. Yep. But yeah, um, this is where the phrase sit with it does apply. You know, a lot of people are like, what do you do when you're anxious? Sit with it. Not really. Yeah, not always what non-anxious you would do. Non-anxious you probably wouldn't sit with it, yeah, unless you know you're watching TV or something. But um, yeah, learning to do these like low-level, low-intensity existing and also practicing with your practicing with your attention that there as well.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

That needs to go on a t-shirt or a mug. I'm doing I'm practicing low intensity existence. That was really good.

SPEAKER_03 6:42

Yeah, yeah, you're practicing low intensity existence. Yeah, um, obviously as well when we're anxious, it obviously kicks in our executive function, doesn't it? Executive function is a is a posh psychological term for do something. Yeah. Executive executive functions kicked in do something. Yeah. So this question, and or people who struggle to be bored or in first gear or do very like low-intensity things, low intensity existence, is that they're confused why executive function is there. Why am I sat here in a nice sunny garden? I don't have anything to do, I can enjoy not having anything to do, but it's difficult when we're in a state of executive function, when the brain and body is like, do something, do something, do something. For people with productivity anxiety or low self-esteem and GAD, their executive functions like pumping all the time. That's why they find it difficult to sit still, they're you know, faffing around, they're fidgeting, they're doing things like that, because their executive functions are in a very high state of activation. But yeah, learning to be like, how do we turn the threat response off, show it's not needed, and how do we do that? We sit and learn to be with executive function while it's on and do the opposite of what it says.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Yeah, I think some of it is is when you mention people with GAT, like their executive function, do something is really instructing them to do mental things, usually it's think more, solve problems more, ruminate more, like or to avoid their anxiety by using distraction. That's exactly right. Go do something.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

I don't want my thoughts. I need to go and do something. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Yeah. So I think being able to being bored, I mean, I beyond anxiety recovery, we could talk about this for days. Like there's a just more and more data that tells us like we are suffering in the age of social media and and smartphones. I sound so old. Smartphone. Who's a smartphone anymore? Seriously. I'm disgusted with myself now. But we we are suffering from mental health issues, and we see that like, oh, the uh the incident of mental health issues, anxiety and depression is just skyrocketing in the last 10 years. Yeah, part of that is because we are never bored. So it goes beyond just anxiety recovery, just constant stimulation is not what we were built built to do. But one of the more valuable lessons that I had to learn in being quiet, sitting and low-level existing, which is great, low-intensity existing was I had to learn to have all the thoughts. Because some of the thoughts that a recovering person would have is like, is am I okay? But what if uh scary thoughts come back? Am I having scary thoughts? Is it okay to just sit here and do nothing? Is this is this right correct recovery? Like, yep. Go ahead and the answer is I don't know. Like, go ahead and have all the thoughts. It's it's practice in having the thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 9:27

And would you say, I mean, I think this, but I don't know what you think, but like people who struggle with this type of anxiety and they struggle to be born and to not do anything, is because they see things through the lens of threat monitoring, all the time. So they just begin to threat monitor, but low-level threat monitoring, so not like, oh my god, there's a panic attack, oh that intrusive thought, oh my partner's gonna leave me. It's low-level threat monitoring of right, you've got to get your thinking right right now.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:58

What are you gonna do right now? What's productive right now? What what what's the next thing in the sequence? I would say argue that that's low-level threat monitoring because you're kind of hyper-analyzing just being. So when you asked, so what should I do when I have nothing to do? My answer is anything but rumination. Anything, do what you want, learn to juggle, whistle, do a jig, start a fight with your neighbors, mow the lawn, paint, yeah, maybe do some yoga, meditate, listen to rubbish, eat an ice cream, maybe create a casserole.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

A casserole? See, I would not think of that, but okay, fair enough. These and I've said this before, the stupid guitars behind me on video are a result of though those times for me. Like, oh I I I I'll go buy a guitar. I guess I'll learn to buy, I can teach myself how to play the guitar. We'll try that. I don't know. Like it didn't really work out that well, regardless of the other the things behind me, but okay. And I I think the low-level threat monitoring, it goes from, am I okay to is this right? I love when you said I gotta get my thinking right. And you know, if you find yourself like Josh opened the episode, actually being bored and not knowing what to do, well, congratulations, you're way down the road to recovery, or you are recovered, who knows? Like, and I think not everything is a recovery problem. And you got it. This is a chance to start to get out of that mode. Like, what's the right thoughts to have? What's the right thing to do? I gotta be doing what not anxious. Is this what non-anxious me would do? Is this what Drew and Josh always talk about? Now I have a chance. What do I do? Like, all right, just just chill, like let it happen organically. And if you do it wrong, okay, that's actually right.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

Yeah, someone sent me a um a question thing on my website where in the week throughout people can ask me a question and and I will answer it, you know. If you pay for my time, I'll answer it and stuff like that. And it was something similar. It was the question was along the lines of kind of what do I do now? What do I do? And it's like, no, no, no, it's executive function, it's okay. Like acknowledge what it is, and and actually just label, oh, I've got a what do I do thought or a what do I do feeling. Yep, you're well on the road there. Also, as well, it's like the same person they were describing, like and you know you're on you're well on the way to recovery when you catch yourself daydreaming, and then you know it's a habit from an anxiety disorder. When you're daydreaming, you're imagining nothing. You know, we an old joke we had about a year ago with you know, Drew's cab company. You're just you're just daydreaming. If you if you're daydreaming and then you catch yourself daydreaming, you get that thud of anxiety because you're not used to it. But if you if you catch yourself daydreaming, that's good. Yeah, it means you are not you cannot daydream when under threat. So you're just allowing the brain to float off and go down any direction it wants to, but don't be surprised because of habit, you'll jolt back to that habitual compulsive anal analysis or what I do next, or yeah, this and that. Uh and you know, I was explained to this person this, but it's a good thing. Also, don't beat yourself up if you are daydreaming and then you suddenly go back into that inwards compulsion. Use the fact that you were daydreaming as a positive that you are you're almost there.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Yeah, for sure. And like if you're confronted with the what do I do now, well, you get to choose. And I think sometimes the the fear or the the discomfort over boredom or like I don't know what to do next is that. Like, well, now I have a choice to make, which you do. That is correct. You have a choice in front of you. Will I make the right choice? Yeah, I don't know, right? Any choice you make, like a non-anxious person, somebody who does not suffer with chronic or disordered anxiety, doesn't ask themselves that. Like, oh, what am I gonna do now? Oh, I'm gonna do this. And they might an hour later say, ah, that was a waste of my time, but they're not in like threat mode and urgent mode over that. So, like, these are low stakes decisions right now. You're not deciding whether to save a kitten from a burning building, you're deciding whether you want to sit and read a book or go for a walk. Like that's a low stakes decision. Go ahead and make the wrong one, it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

So important. Yeah, go ahead and make the wrong one. Yeah. Because if you're a person listening now who's like, right, I'm in a good place, I feel like I've done well, I've got some time to myself now, there's nothing in my schedule. What's the next thing I can do? The next action I do, is it conducive to recovery or is it not good for recovery? If you're even asking that question, no, it doesn't matter what you're doing. It's a bit different if you've like, you know what, I'm still recovering, I've got some time here. Maybe I can go and do an exposure. It depends where you're at. But if you come to a good place and you're far down the line, basically, remember, you've got to do what non-anxious you would do. Non-anxious you wouldn't be sitting there going, what do I need to do next for recovery? Non-anxious you would be like, Why don't I just get out the bread maker and yeah, create a crime against culinary?

SPEAKER_02 15:17

That would be me. Um, that's a good point. For me, a little personal experience here, when I got to that point, it would happen like on a Friday night or a Saturday night. And this is this is sad. That was my life. You get it though. I would find that I was bored. Like, oh, I'm bored on a Friday night. So, like, I would, you know, I I had lost my job as a full-time anxious person. I always like to use that little, you know, joke. And in those days, I recognized like I am bored, and I could just sit here and then interact with my family, oh the horror, or I could watch a movie or something. But like, sorry guys, if you nobody's listening, they don't they never listen to my own shit, so that's fine. Um, or I could, I know I still have a little bit of an acceptable bubble that I'm trying to break out of. Uh I'm gonna go drive an hour away because I could, I had the time. So, yeah, at that stage of my recovery, I filled the bored spot with things that I I didn't know I was still avoiding, and I went and go did go do those. But then that ended too, and then I was just bored. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:18

And it it it's you know you're in a good place, but yeah, you're just bored, and you're just frustrated that you're bored, and that's okay from an anxiety recovery point of view. That's amazing. Oh, it's that's what you want to do. Yeah, yeah. I had the other day, I was I had some time to myself, and this always happens. Uh, I either like log onto Netflix or something like that, and I'm um and I can't decide what to watch, and or when I'm on the PlayStation or something, I'm like, oh, I might download a new game. Yeah, I spend two hours looking at what I could have watched or could have played. And I used to be, I used to have Craig the critic, like, you've got to be efficient with your time, you've got to be productive. But and then actually looking back, I quite enjoy just scrolling and not I could watch that. That looks alright, maybe not that. I like little, I could play that, and I'm just like, well, that is me just being bored and messing around. I don't have to constantly maximize my productivity and efficiency when it comes to being.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Yeah. And you know, you could this gets a little bit more maybe nuanced, but like, okay, that was two hours of trying to decide what to do, and I wound up doing nothing, but you actually did do something. Yeah, if you choose not to make a choice, you still have made a choice. That was rush, like that was one of their famous lines. But like, what did that accomplish? Well, I may have turned out to be a little more relaxed, a little more open-minded after that. I explored some of my likes and dislikes for two hours. Like, everything is an experience. Yeah, I just enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_03 17:46

Yeah, I'm just like, yeah, I joke about it when I do talks and stuff. They're like, you know, uh, and I said, make sure you enjoy your evening. I'm off to go home and load up Netflix and not decide on something to watch for two hours.

SPEAKER_02 17:58

But you know what though? So, okay, that's always funny. Like, and you see people do like, well, what's my guilty pleasure? Like scrolling through Netflix to decide what not to watch. Like, fair enough. It's like listening to ABBA. I'll do that, just I won't tell people. That's what Josh does. It's all good.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Yeah, I have a bit odd. I sometimes just like watching movie trailers. Yeah, but even movie trailers of movies I've already seen.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

You know what? I think this does speak to, we're laughing, but if you think about it, and I'm not trying to be like social media get off my lawn guy, but there's a reason why those algorithms are so incredibly successful. And like if there's 5,000 people listening to this episode in the first week, 4,000 of them have asked themselves the question, how do I scroll less, man? I gotta have less screen time. I know y'all have done that because we all do that. Why do you think we struggle with that? Because like we could get easily sucked into like stupid stuff like Seinfeld clips that I've seen a million times. I don't need any more quotes from the Big Lebowski. I've seen the movie a thousand times, but I'll get sucked into it anyway. So, like, it's okay. That's the way our brains work. We like to be occupied, and and sometimes if we don't know how to be occupied. That's nice, it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 19:07

I remember even even during the days of my recovery, you know, yeah, it's some movie might be on that I've seen a hundred times. But yeah, you're right, I get sucked in and all the efficient, productive plans of recovery that day went out the window. Oh well, because I sat down, I just watched this movie that I've seen a hundred times and enjoyed it. But the irony of that is that is recovery.

SPEAKER_02 19:28

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

There's no, there's just like I'm I'm existing. If you find yourself existing and being, then for that 10 seconds, you have recovered. If you find yourself not thinking about your anxiety for an hour, you that is an insight to what it is to be recovered. The only challenge is while I know I can practice with my attention. When I am engaged, absorbed, distracted. My next task is okay, I just need to practice being bored a bit because I know it's there. I've taught myself that I can engage my brain and attention, even when feeling uncertain and unhappy and and scared. And like the person who sent the question in, I'm really good when I'm doing stuff and I've got activities and things like that. Good. So you know what it feels like to feel recovered. It's just the next thing. Like, I just need to practice the skill of willful tolerance when I've got nothing to do, and leaning into uncertainty at even a very minor level.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:29

Like I don't even know what to watch. You know, just like that's it.

SPEAKER_02 20:33

That's a really good point. And that's okay. You know, this is if we are using the A and Act, acceptance and commitment therapy. I'm a huge fan. I think Josh is into it too. Like the A, some use that the bean is a good thing. I said there'd be no World of Warcraft. Okay, Cupid. Was that the one you came up with? Yeah, sorry about that. I'll see if I edit it out, but I won't. I think it's okay. Every experience is just an experience. It's something that we can always bring something out of or not. It's okay. Like it doesn't really matter. And only in retrospect could I have looked back and said, when I first found myself sort of bored, and I would get anxious and agitated because I was bored and I didn't know what to do next. I've told a story. I even reached out to my all therapist for like a one-off session, like a quick check-in. Like, well, what do I do now? I had to ask my all therapist, what do I do now? So just the way you actually you've asked, you've asked this same question. And she was like, I don't know. You know, I told the story, go to Starbucks, have a coffee, like go to the library, go to a park, take a ride, like, I don't know, go to the movies. And I was like, what is this wizardry? Like, what is this insanity that you're mentioning here? And she was right. She was just like, just exist. And in retrospect.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

It's you, isn't it? You have to learn to exist and be you. Yep. And if you've had an anxiety disorder for so long, you've forgotten what it is like to be a part of you. And that's what you're learning. And sometimes, where do I go now? It's a bit like walking into a maid. You know, it's no fun going into a maze when the guy at the door at the front says, Yeah, just take the first left, follow it on to the right, go around, and you get to the middle. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Drew and Josh, for telling me how to complete the maze.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

But where's the fun in the maze? Yeah. You're gonna make wrong turns, you're gonna do stuff, you're gonna bump into the same lost family that are just as lost as you, and the parents having a breakdown because they're they're thirsty and the kids are losing it. You're gonna go past the same people. We're all in a maze together, doing going our own separate ways. We'll get to the middle eventually and we'll get out eventually. But you if you're sat there and your default thought is, what do I do now? Where do I go? You've got to be the one that's driving that. And it can be literally anything. Just have a random thing, like just or just let fate decide. You know, do you know what? I've never baked. I'm just gonna bake something. You know what? I'm gonna listen to a podcast. You know what? I'm gonna go for a walk, I'm gonna ring a friend, I'm gonna do these things. You don't, you it's really important because you need to get the credit for championing championing your own autonomy.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:10

Now you can take guidance from people like Drew and I, but ultimately recovery is I am the champion of my own autonomy, and that means I can just pretty much do anything.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

And it's all okay, you know. So I one of the things that you can choose to do in that moment, you do have a choice, you have a choice to make. You know, one of the big trends recently has been the whole raw dogging thing. Have you seen that? Like, you know, I just raw dogged a 14-hour flight to Dubai. Like, come on, guys, really? Like, I just look straight ahead for fun. Like, you know, we already had that's called meditation. We already invented that about 4,000 years ago.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

But okay, what do you think people are doing 20 years ago?

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Right, that's exactly right. Like, it's it's an accomplishment to not like scroll Instagram for 14 hours on a flight. Like, really? But the bottom line is there is some value in that. So, one of the things that you can choose, you can choose to do any number of things that we've we've all given you perfectly good suggestions here. Baking bread is the top one on my list. I'm gonna do that. But you can also choose to do nothing. I'm gonna, and that's a thing that I've been working on more and more and more. I'm going to choose to be bored for the next 15 or 20 minutes. I'm gonna do nothing, and I'm gonna just sit here and I don't know, let my thoughts run, look out the window. And it feels nice when you do that, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 24:21

It's you you it's uh it's an antidote to the rigidity of uh focus. Yeah, whether it's scrolling, doing stuff, tasks, emails, work, maybe only kids, stuff like that. Sitting on a park bench and just allowing the brain to just float around. It's actually afterwards, it's like my brain needed that, yeah. And also it helps psychological flexibility. The more psychologically flexible you are, yeah, not physically, I'm terrible. I did a pigeon pose the other day and rang an ambulance. But like in general, the more psychologically flexible you are, the kind of healthier your brain is.

unknown 24:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

Because it's like, oh, I can go there, I can put it there, I can do that. You know what? I sat in the park and just oh, look, there's a squirrel. Oh, there's a thought about a memory I had from 10 years ago. Oh, I wonder what I'll eat tonight. Oh, I'm thinking about an ex-girlfriend from such and such a time. Oh, I wonder what's happening now. This bench is quite cold. Yeah, just allowing your brain, brain to go wherever it wants is really helpful.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

And I there is value in that too. And now we get a little bit more esoteric, but like one of the things that I do, I can't believe I do this with a pen and a notebook is journal in the morning. I cannot believe I have paper and notebooks. But this speaks to the boredom thing because this morning I was like, I try and do three pages every morning, and it's not a giant notebook, but like I got to the end of the second page and we're gonna record and I got things to do. I'm like, and I literally am letting my brain make whatever thought it wants. I really want to stop here. I don't know if I have anything to say on these pages for the next, you know. I I'm I'm busy. I would rather end at the second page and go do my stuff. But I sat for a second and just sort of like sat there and sat there, and I filled another, I I could have done two more pages, just letting my brain come up with just stuff. And like, yes, that was a really cool exercise.

SPEAKER_03 26:08

I got to you on the third page and I'm like and then you want to you're comfortable sharing?

SPEAKER_02 26:12

Where did your brain go? I will tell you what, like in the end, it turned out to be another page. It was a very meta page. Like, what is this exercise supposed? Why am I sitting here at my coffee table cross-legged, like I live in Japan, you know, writing, writing in my journal every morning? What am I trying to do here? Like, what am I trying to accomplish? I'm like, I don't know. And I thought, well, I don't know when we find historical diaries like meditations, Marcus Aurelius, or historical figures leave their diaries behind. What were they doing? Well, they were working stuff out, they were just talk talking about their days or trying to figure out who they were or struggling with who they wanted to be or sticking with their morals or their principles or their philosophies. And I just wrote, my brain just made that, you know, and it came out to be like, well, what am I doing? And the last line was like, it had something, I don't know, but I could look at it. Yeah, I'll share it, right? You want to really hear this? Here was the last line of today's journal entry. And this came from allowing myself to be bored. I wrote, but still, this morning I have completed two and a half years of formal study because I just ended my grad program. And while while I remain blank on the informal study of myself, and that was the end of the entry. Right, it's really weird. Like, I'm not that's not great. That's just bullshit that my mind came up with. But if you can learn to just just exist, low-level existence, your brain will make stuff. And I'm like, that was cool. I I I felt like I got something out of that for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

Okay, and in contrast now, yeah, many years ago, when you're in the midst of an anxiety disorder and you did that, what would it look like?

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Yeah, it would have looked very different. I think it probably would have looked like trying to figure out the right written rumination. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Hyperanalysis. Yes. That's the difference.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Yeah. And so, like, I could have never done this in in those days. And even if, you know, I know we talk about journaling as like almost a universally healthy thing. Well, back in the day, I shouldn't have had a journal, you know, for sure. Because I would have just been writing about how I felt and what do I have to do next? And like, you know, I'm gonna have my green tea and then I'm gonna have my magnesium supplement, and like, you know, I hope nothing happens today. And I I really just need to calm down. Like, that's what I would have written every single morning. Yeah, again and again and again and again and again.

SPEAKER_03 28:19

Everything central around the anxiety. Yeah, how I felt, how I feel and it's really important though, and thanks for sharing that, Drew. It's really important because even this question here, you're really far down the recovery road, you're doing all the good stuff, all the brave stuff. But ask yourself is what I'm doing now still behaving where anxiety is the center of my life? Yeah, whereas when Drew sat down and filled in his in his diary, he was just allowing his brain to go where it wants because his whole life isn't centered around his state of uncertainty, his symptoms, his feelings of anxiety, it uh it was on its own separate plane somewhere. Whereas if you did this as someone who's anxious, and this is why I never really ask clients to journal about their anxiety, I do about like self-esteem and and and a gratitude journal and for them for themselves. But if you're doing something that lies in a concentric circle around anxiety recovery, then you're still making it the center of your life, yeah, and that's not existing as non-anxious you.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

And an exercise like this can only happen after that first period of like, I'm bored, what do I do? Then, you know, this is when it loops back to I'm getting maybe a little more philosoph philosophical here, but like when you hear that general mental health advice and wellness advice, check in with your, you know, check your gut. What is your gut telling you? Like, what are your feelings telling you? What is your what is what do you feel like you need? Yeah, now boredom in a recovered state can lead to productive stuff like that.

SPEAKER_03 29:53

But and and also we're always avoiding the inwards compulsion. And if you've not listened to the inwards compulsion episode, go listen to it.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Where was that?

SPEAKER_03 30:06

Also, you get to hear the that excellent music. Going inwards is fine, but if you've been doing it compulsively for years, then no, yeah, let's not do that. Right, let's not do that, yeah. Uh, and particularly boredom and the inwards compulsion is so synonymous sometimes. I'm bored, got nothing to do, got nothing to sequence, executive function, need something to do, and immediately we go inwards, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

But yeah, we have anything else to say about boredom, sitting still.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

Um, no, I'm bored now.

SPEAKER_02 30:49

I'm bored with talking about being bored. I think I'd only add one more thing. Sitting still is a challenge. If you're still in the recovery process and you're having those moments, you can acknowledge that this is making me nervous and I'm having a hard time actually learning now to sit and let feelings and sensations possibly pop up. It's okay. Yeah, it's okay if that's a challenge for you. It's this you're gonna just keep going like you've been going all this time.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

Uh also, as well, it's uh just to add, like it's an it's an opportunity for you to work out your attention muscle in a sense of allowing it to be more flexible. Like just what do I do? What do I do? Just let your brain go to whatever or whatever, whatever you want, maybe try something new, whatever. Because each time you do something different that isn't inwards inwardsly compulsing and thinking about recovery or thinking about anxiety, you're allowing the brain to and flexibility to be um to help you in the future because your attention is more flexible. What do I need to do now? I mean, most people with anxiety disorders, their attention is not flexible, it's rigid. My default thought is thinking about anxiety or ruminating on thoughts or scanning my body for symptoms. No, like just allowing to do pretty much anything, it could be spontaneous, it doesn't like it. It could be something that fails, it doesn't matter. It's something that's not focused on the anxiety, which I think is really important.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

Yeah, or trying to control your thoughts, control your body, control how you feel. Very good.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Well, we got some community stuff that we can get to for sure. This is an interesting episode because we do have audio did it anyways, but their combination question did it anywhere with a did it anyway almost answers the question. And I think these are valuable. So should I play one?

SPEAKER_03 32:33

They do our job for us.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Absolutely makes it easy. We get to sloth off like bums. Love it. Here we go.

SPEAKER_04 32:40

Hi, Drew and Josh.

SPEAKER_02 32:42

Except I have to tell Audacity to play through the Roadcaster. So let's do that again after Drew messed up.

SPEAKER_03 32:48

Editing notes.

SPEAKER_04 32:50

Hi, Drew and Josh. This is Helen from the free to use my name. I'll be greedy. I never did it anyway. And a question. So my question is if you have a health condition that mimics often the symptoms of anxiety, mine includes high heart rate, dizziness, nausea, brain farm, vision problems, all those classic things that it's an actual diagnosed problem. But having those symptoms causes me quite a lot of anxiety. And even now, no, I know that it's been a diagnosed problem. I'm still a bit kind of convincing myself that I'm bringing them all on in my head. Any tips for navigating that?

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Um, also Okay, this is the part where Helen, who said we could use her name, answers her own question. Ready?

SPEAKER_04 33:37

I did it anyway, is woke up this morning feeling like I was gonna die and convinced myself that I was um due to my condition, but decided to do what non-anxious me would do, which is go for a walk in my local park uh overlooking Liverpool, and that's where I am right now. Um, so just thank you for everything that you guys do. You are uh ace. Cheers.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

There you go. There you go. Any any any tips? Well done, Alan. There you go. That was your tip. You gave yourself your own tip.

SPEAKER_03 34:14

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the perfect attitude to respond to it. Uh, and that's a good reaction to when anxiety was acute. Apply the same principle to when your anxiety is not acute. So if you're ruminating feeling uneasy, apply that same principle. Okay, you don't have to run to the to the hills and and look over Liverpool, but look what you're doing with your attention there. You decided to do something that required you to lean into uncertainty, and yes, you did it in a quantifiable, measurable way. Like I was panicking, so I went for a walk, and now I felt good. Great. Now apply that to when you're at home ruminating. What can you do now instead?

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Yeah, yeah, really good. Um, the only thing that I might add, you know, you have a physiological condition or a medical condition. Always ask yourself like, am I in the middle of that condition or am I worried that I might be in the middle of that? You know, if I'm not sure, you know, I'm bringing it on, I'm bringing it on because I'm anxious. Okay, but am I impaired right now or am I worried that I'm going to be impaired? There's two, those are two different things.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

Yeah, and and yeah, and like I said, and if you have a medical condition, there's a huge difference between checking, always check. Yeah. If you want a medical, if you're you know diabetic, you know, steroid dependency, so you have to check. But um ask yourself, am I doing this compulsively because I feel anxious, or am I doing it because you know, actually, yeah, it's three o'clock. I should probably check things. Yeah, that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:40

Perfectly okay to do that. Let's move on to the next one. And this one is a did it anyway that turns into a question, but it's really good anyway. So let's check it out.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Hi there. So I have a question about basically our capacity for anxiety. Um, I've been actively recovering from panic disorder and agoraphobia for about four months now.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

This is the dead it anyway part, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 36:06

And um I've been doing a lot of things and like like going out to dinner, going to the beach, going on dates with my husband, like all the things that I couldn't do, I've been doing, and it's been going well, but I obviously am still experiencing panic and anxiety, and I'm just letting it be there, and it's definitely um gotten a lot better because of the work that I've put in in doing exposures and things like that. So my family wants to go on a Hawaiian vacation, and I guess my question is like, how can we know? Not that we're ever ready for anything that causes panic, like sometimes we have to just do it, but I know that there is kind of like a what do they call it, like the anxiety ladder or the exposure ladder, you don't want to just like jump into something really hard right away. So I'm just not sure if I'm ready for like airplanes and vacation, and I don't know how to know if I'm ready for that kind of intense exposure. So I don't know, maybe any like advice on how to know when we're ready for that next big step would be awesome. Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 37:21

All right, well, that's that's old. Oops, sorry. Um, that's old. I took that out of the way back machine from like a a year ago. So if you're still listening, we can't use a person's name. Did you go to Hawaii? Let us know. Like feedback on that. Yeah. Josh, what's it? How would you answer that, Drew? Um, this is a good one, I think, because it starts off with, you know, kind of a did it anyway. Like, I'm bringing it with me, I'm still feeling anxious, but you know, I it's much better because I'm moving through it and I'm I'm connecting to things that I really want to do with my family, my husband, and blah, blah, blah. It's really great. But what I hear here is the doubt, the doubt that always comes in these disorders, you know, like I'm doing all the things, but I still doubt my ability to do all the things. So it I hear a weird question there. Like, if you're already moving through the anxious feelings, what's the question again? Like the question becomes uh well, I still don't know if I could do it that much, but you've already been doing it. Like, so it's just the doubt that, like, yeah, but uh Hawaii would be too much, and there there is no such thing.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

Yeah, and also you can build up to those things as well, sure. You know, uh, but there'll always be a point where you have to lean into doubt and face doubt because that's what anxiety is, it's your doubt response. Yep, you just doubt, it's all it is. Uh, but when you feel confident and stuff and realize actually the anxiety that I'm having in this scary place is exactly the same as the anxiety over there, then something lands and you're like, ah, okay, let's do it. And with momentum and practice, that helps too.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

Yeah, I mean, we wouldn't start. This person would not have started their recovery with a trip to Hawaii. That that wouldn't work out. But at this point, when you can clearly say, Well, look, I am learning, I'm repeating again and again and again. I take the anxiety with me and I do things anyway, and it turns out I can handle that. Then at some point we have to keep leaping forward. Like now I have to move this into this context, in this context, in this context, because I have to learn the core lesson, which is it's never the plane right or the island that you're on or the place, it's it's what's inside of me, and I can handle what's inside of me.

SPEAKER_03 39:22

So your belief that you can tolerate. Yeah, you can anyway. Here's the thing though: your belief you can tolerate it, but like you'll tolerate it either way, even if you don't believe you can tolerate it. That's that's exactly you'll end up tolerating it.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

Yeah, because you always have, and that's like the acceptance question. But I can't accept that. Okay, fine, then don't. What's the difference? Like it doesn't matter anyway. So uh good question. It's old again. If you're not if you're still listening, chime in. But uh yeah, excellent.

SPEAKER_03 39:47

Uh I've got a did it anyway. Um, it's quite an old one as well, but I had it listed here. I just wanted to read it out before we sign off. Um, hi guys, wanted to share a did it anyway with you. I've struggled quite badly with anxiety for the past nine months, triggered by a health scare that led me down a health anxiety rabbit hole that I really struggled to get out of. Recently, with the help of the therapist, I've been able to begin to accept uncertainty and identified that I've likely lived with a low level of constant anxiety for my whole life. We decided to try and refocus my nervous energy into something productive, and I found a comedy improv class for beginners that I joined. I love this. I was really nervous about meeting new people and what they would think of me and if I would do well at all. However, I did it anyway, and over the last six weeks I've noticed my confidence grow immeasurably and perform in my first show on Sunday. I've made some new friends that I'm going to start a DD campaign with, Dungeons and Dragons, if you are not a geek like me. And I'm in a much better place now than I was two months ago. There was always a performer showman showman in me that I had repressed for many years due to a lack of belief and confidence. But now I'm very happy, and my constant ruminations and catastrophizing thoughts surrounding my health have been replaced by a healthy amount of nerves surrounding my upcoming show. Thanks for all that you do, guys. Much love.

SPEAKER_02 41:19

That's really great. I love that one. I love that it turns into like performing, like stand-up and stuff. It's really cool.

SPEAKER_03 41:26

Sounds a good therapist as well. Like when you've you've got all this energy, you might as well channel it into something great. And then you're changing the association with feeling nervous because interestingly, there's absolutely no difference physiologically between feelings of excitement and feelings of nervousness.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Yeah. This we I'm not we're not going to play the question, but it does answer another question that we've been sitting on for a while, which is the what what when do you know that you've checked your health enough? Because you know, they tell us we're supposed to check, like make sure you get your mammogram and make sure you get this. Here you go. The answer is in this this did it anyway, which is it's it is possible to uh change your focus and put your attention somewhere else. It actually is possible. In which in which time then you get to use the like good medical advice and good wellness advice in a healthy way. So that you know, this is a perfect example of like being gripped by concerns about health that then sort of melts away because I've took the risk of putting my attention somewhere else that more accurately like describes who I am and what I care about in life. That's so that's the answer to that. It's okay to let go of compulsive health checking.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

It really is. Yeah. Yeah. But what if I miss something?

SPEAKER_02 42:35

Then I'll figure it out if I do. Right. So yeah, yeah, good answer. Um, anyway, I think we're good. 42 minutes, we're good to go. If you guys want to participate in these episodes and send in some audio or written did it anyways, just go over to disorder.fm where you can hit the blue button and send us voicemail or send us a written message or whatever. We can't use them all, but we try to listen to most of them and read all the emails if we can. And uh what else type of?

SPEAKER_03 42:59

Uh keep the uh sign-ups coming in as well on disorder.fm, where it's the first you'll hear about disordered round table. Oh, yeah, the round table, yeah. A few sign-ups already. We've not sent out any emails yet, so don't worry. Like, where is it? But yeah, if you want to if you're interested in seeing disordered live, where we just a selection of people can come here, we'll have a topic of the day. People join us on the round table, we'll talk about our experiences and answer them for you. Then uh yeah, just picture disordered live, um, which is something that we're gonna start very soon. But yeah, if you want to get involved with that, just go on disordered.fm and uh sign up to the mailing list and you'll you'll hear more about it.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

Yeah, we never email people, but we will. We're ready to do.

SPEAKER_03 43:37

We're gonna spam you every morning with pictures of my breakfast. Oh, it's gonna be epic.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

Anyway, guys, and if you're digging the podcast, leave us a uh kind review or a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify because we're getting there. We're gonna hit a million, million downloads soon. It's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

That'll be really nice. Anyway, thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Yeah, see you next week. We're out of the way.