I'm Obsessed With Anxiety And Anxiety Recovery! (Ep 019)

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Today we're talking about being obsessed with your anxiety. I'm obsessed because I feel scared. I don't want to feel better. Oh, you can just become obsessed with it because there's a part of you that thinks it's a problem that needs to be fixed.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

That was the most important thing in life. How do I feel now? Am I doing this right? What can I do to feel better? What can I do to fix this?

SPEAKER_00 0:18

We am obsessed with trying to perfect and get to the bottom and get rid of this.

SPEAKER_02 0:25

We become obsessed with the state of anxiety, and then we kind of naturally gravitate to becoming obsessed with fixing that state. And the obsession with my anxiety was that no matter how hard I tried, I could not seemingly create, I couldn't make a positive outcome.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

I will find a way the magic miracle thought or word or technique that gets rid of it so I can go back to living my life of not caring about me or giving myself any praise and just getting on with stuff.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 19 of the podcast called I'm Obsessed with My Anxiety. I am Drew Linsolata, a graduate student in clinical mental health counseling, a therapist in training and author on this topic of anxiety disorders. And I am based in New York, in the United States.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

And I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, therapist and author based in Manchester in the UK.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Today we're talking about being obsessed with your anxiety. That's a thing, isn't it, Josh?

SPEAKER_00 1:22

It is. And don't get me wrong, anxiety can be scary if you don't know where you are. And the obsession can be I'm obsessed because I feel scared and want to feel better. But also you can just become obsessed with it because there's a part of you that thinks it's a problem that needs to be fixed. Yep. And particularly for a perfectionist. And anxiety can put can be different symbolically for different people. And we'll talk about that today.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah, yeah. Um, did you feel like you were obsessed with your anxiety when you were struggling?

SPEAKER_00 1:54

The first time I was struggling, I was obsessed with wanting to know what was happening to me. And psychoeducation helped. And once I started to feel a bit like because I felt so hopeless with with my panic and OCD and agrophobia, that when I felt a bit like I could live again, the joy and euphoria of that helped me to kind of leave it alone. I was like, oh, I realize I can leave this alone now, I can leave this alone now. Yeah. Then obviously, you know, I got my life back, and you know, conventional things came in, like ambition, life events happened, and I thought I was in a good place until the it kind of I hate this word, but like the anxiety came back and I realized I had a different relationship with it. And I realized actually I thought I had a grasp of this, and I saw that it's kind of reoccurrence as as a symbol of failure, as a symbol of threat. And therefore, yes, the second time it came around, I became obsessed, became obsessed with trying to fix it, learn more about it, even though I'd successfully done well the first time. I I forgot to actually heed the lessons of what I did the first time, and the second time I decided to kind of open Pandora's box and try to do everything to finally rid myself of this feeling, which as we know on this podcast was not the way to go.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Yeah, not terribly productive. So for you, the obsession was like, oh, it's come back. I did something wrong. I gotta fix it, I gotta figure out what I did wrong and do it right and fix it this time.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

Yeah, and it came out through compulsions. Um again, we'll talk about the different ways you can become obsessed with your anxiety, but for me, it was uh came out of compulsions with the anxious thought, what if I've missed something? What if there's a book on recovery that I have yet to read? What if there's some trapped hidden trauma inside me that's happened in the last four years that was different from when I first got better? What if, and and this isn't helped, by the way, by multiple sources of information and misinformation on the internet, making me a bit confused. And when you're anxious, you just absorb it like a sponge done. Yep, yep. Um, yeah, compulsive resource gathering. My shelves are just full of all these self-help books that some contradicted each other, some said the same thing, some were just not anxiety disorder informed. Um, and then it became a real kind of personal battle with me where Craig the Critic, as we all know very well, it's Craig the critic. He would just then say stuff like, Well, you know, you've written books on anxiety, how come now you're still anxious? Why are you doing that? And therefore it put more pressure on me to get better. Also, I think around me, and it was a personal pressure. People around me, I didn't want to upset them. There's a pressure to not show them that I'm anxious, uh, there's a pressure to not feel embarrassed and the shame of having a uh recurring anxiety, and alas, yeah, it became an obsession, it became a thing I needed to fix. Yeah, about you, Drew.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Yeah, I can I can relate to that. I I think it was almost every waking moment was anxiety and recovery was the most important thing in the room for me for quite a while. If I was awake, that was the most important thing in life was how do I feel now? Am I doing this right? What can I do to feel better? What can I do to fix this? What can I learn about this? Who can I talk to about this? Sometimes being obsessed with your anxiety means just wanting to tell people all the time that you're anxious and how you feel and how it's expressing. So, yeah, I was, you know, as as the kids today are fond of saying, it became my entire personality. So for a little while, being anxious was my whole personality. And yeah, I would say that I was reasonably obsessed with it. It was the most important thing in my life. And listen, like you said to begin with, when we're struggling, we just want to feel better, and that's okay. That's not a crime. So it can be very easy to become completely consumed with trying to find a way to not struggle because nobody wants to struggle. We don't want your struggle.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

I think I answered that from the context of I was obsessed with anxiety recovery. Yeah. I think in terms of being obsessed with anxiety, yeah, of course. And that's when you're frightened and misinformed and you're doing all these things, yeah, you you want to feel safe. And that's okay to want to feel safe, particularly because we know how horrible anxiety feels. Yeah. I think I answered it more through the lens of I'm obsessed with anxiety recovery. I'm obsessed with trying to perfect and get to the bottom and and get rid of this. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Right, it's both of those things. Like we become obsessed with the state of anxiety, and then we kind of naturally gravitate to becoming obsessed with fixing that state.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

So, yeah, and and of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Um, how else did yours present? Well, for me, I mean, I you know, and this is one of those lessons that that anxiety recovery taught me that has served me well to this day. I live my life generally, and like I'll just run over anything in my path. Like, I will will not be beat, I will run everything over. Like I was always that guy, which is okay, you know, not bad, you know, the obstacles the way and all that stoicism stuff. But I had to learn that like I cannot run this over. And so for me, that obsession with it or that preoccupation, that constant preoccupation was all about like why why can't I just you know, why can't I just do this? Why can't I just run this over? Like I should be able to do that. And I and I oof that's so interesting. It was so hard to let go of that.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

I was I was working with a client this morning, and um I have permission to kind of just briefly, kind of vaguely kind of signal to what we were talking about, but it was um working with someone who's a perfectionist, so it's a bit different to what you were saying, but it kind of linked in the sense that there's someone who's really good at doing things in life and got very successful by relentlessly doing things to a to to perfection, so to it to see it to its fruition, to ultimate success, where the outcome was always great because they threw everything at it and mixed a little bit of emotional conservatism and conservatism in there with some emotional overdiscipline, and you get someone who is ripe for being stuck with an anxiety disorder because you cannot apply that mindset to getting out of that anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

What I find interesting in retrospect, and we talk about that is you know, we get a little bit nerdy about this, and you look about like that self-efficacy and positive outcome expectations, and we like dig Al Bandur up and bring him into the conversation. I live my whole life with a very high sense of self-efficacy and always positive outcome expectations. I can, I can create positive outcomes. And the obsession with my anxiety was that no matter how hard I tried, I could not seemingly create, I couldn't make a positive outcome. I couldn't make myself feel better, I couldn't run it over. So yeah, I can relate to that. Maybe not perfectionistic, I wouldn't call myself that, but I I can fix things when they need to be fixed. I couldn't fix it. And it became an obsession for me. It was difficult. You're a fixer. I I thought I could fix it. I'm not generally a fixer, I'm an obstacle overcomer. This is an obstacle. So I don't look for things to fix, but if something needs fixing, I'll fix it. And I had to learn like I can't fix this. This is a thing I can, I don't not the way that I thought I would fix it. Can't manipulate it, can't fix it, can't change it.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

So during your kind of anxious recovery, what did that look like then when you realized initially you couldn't or you were struggling?

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Yeah, it was uh for me, it it was the realization slowly that I had to let go of the idea that I could brute force my way, you know, like I'm a real I'm a smart guy, I can use all the horsepower I have in my brain to fix this, and I'm a reasonably, you know, physically capable person, even though at my worst I was not, because I was sedentary and overweight from the antidepressants and all of those things, but I still saw myself as very capable. Interesting, right? So even at my worst, I still saw myself as capable, even while I felt like I was a failure, which is another topic we can cover one day.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

And I think that's probably one of the barriers that some people have is that I hope you don't mention it. It was almost fortunate that you still saw yourself as that person. I was very fortunate to have that. Whereas I work, you know, and I see and speak to a lot of people that don't that don't see themselves as that. No, and maybe before your anxiety problem. Exactly. Yeah. So if you're going into an anxiety disorder and the these are the people that you know they're quite it's challenging together to work with for both of us, but it's like one of the biggest obstacles is the fact that they don't think they're capable. Yep. Um, and so therefore the obsession, and when we're talking about I'm obsessed with my anxiety, and we talk about compassion a lot of this, is that the obsession becomes and I say this with with all sincerity and a lot of compassion myself, but the obsession becomes how can I get rid of my anxiety in a way that one isn't me getting the credit and two shortcuts my way through me having to give myself praise for doing difficult things. So these are the people that you know they have the CBD oils, they do the tapping of the face, and they do all these things, they do anything but them giving themselves a platform to give themselves credit for doing something tough because there's no belief there. And so it's oh I did this, I forced myself to the to drive, I forced myself to the gig, I did this. It's like no no you encouraged yourself to do something tricky. Um, and a lot of people can become obsessed with anxiety because they see it as a puzzle rather than a holistic I'm gonna say it journey that uh oh ouch we it took us 19 episodes to use the word journey. Oh no, I think we did say journey earlier. Yeah, my journey anyway, but it is a holistic journey, yeah. Um, that actually requires you, and it does require you to be like have some self-belief, yeah, you know, and so you know, I was a bit fortunate too. I had I had some self-belief left, but I was also in a bittersweet way, and I've mentioned it before, I wasn't the priority. I was in a situation where I had to look after a family member who was very unwell, and so in a bittersweet way, I had some motivation there because I had to do it. Um might have been a different story if that wasn't the case, and it was just me left to my own devices and my own screaming Craig the Critic and all these things. And so, yeah, that can be a way that you can become obsessed with your anxiety. I will find a way the magic miracle thought or word or technique that gets rid of it, so I can go back to living my life of not caring about me or giving myself any praise and just getting on with stuff.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

And that's a particularly insidious form of the obsession to me, because then you you kind of listen to podcasts like this one, for instance, as a resource, and you hear us talking about doing difficult things and being brave and learning that you get the credit, and that's one side of it, but then that lack of self-belief drives you to dig for resources that don't require that. And you try to reconcile the two and you can't, and then those other things don't necessarily work, and then you see yourself as even less capable. Like I'm I'm too afraid or I feel incapable of doing the hard things. So let me try it this way with tapping my cheek or whatever it happens to be. That's not working either. So nothing works. See, I'm so hopeless that nothing works. I'm beyond help here. So it really can snowball into this negative cycle where you just feel like nothing's ever gonna work for me, and I can't do anything.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

A disclaimer that's not true.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Correct. Yes, hard is that true.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

There's always gonna there's always a positive way out, don't worry about it. Yeah, yeah, there's not a helpless, that's true. So but that in fact, even identifying that as a problem is helpful. It's like actually, maybe I could do some work on me. Yeah, yeah, and that is where I usually say to people, well, maybe let's leave the cognitive behavioral approach at the moment and let's just leave all that stuff. You want to be agrophobic for a bit, you want to do all that. Yeah, why don't we just kind of look at like why are you so uh harsh on yourself? Why was your lack of self-belief and let's challenge those beliefs?

SPEAKER_02 14:11

Yeah, what if we build a little scenario here where you act like you believe in yourself, even while you don't, to see what happens. Oh, I like that. Yeah, well, let's just do little experiments, little things.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Just try something you think you can't do, little stuff. I I'm a fan of fake it till you make it. Are you? Yeah, fake it till you make it is so cliche, but there's truth behind it. I I I think there's a lot of truth behind it. I I had a client that said to me, like, isn't that like fake it till you make it? And I was like, kinda, yeah. Kind of yeah, how good are you at faking it? Kind of yeah, yeah. But like just kind of yeah, I'm I'm telling you to go to that party and smile and pretend all these things, not to hide who you really are or to mask or anything like that, but to teach the brain, look, this isn't dangerous anymore. So in the future you can enjoy this. Yeah, that's just as an example. Another way to put that, I think, is act the way you want to feel.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Act the way you want to feel. You know, in in this thing that that Josh and I do, like we're always leading with behavioral change. You can't you can't just decide to think different. You always lead with behavior, so act the way you want to feel. So you can learn how to actually feel that way over time. Just be patient and nice while you do it because it takes a while to learn that.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

So that's interesting. Yeah, yeah. Act the way you want to feel. Um, obsessed. You know you're obsessed with your anxiety when you engage in one of the anxiety's most common safety behaviors slash compulsions, which is compulsive checking. I did a post about that on my Instagram today. Were you a compulsive checker? And what I mean by compulsive checking is the checking of the self, internal threat monitoring. I'm checking to see if the anxiety is there. Is it gone? Has it changed? Is it morphed? Has it manifested physically? Were you a compulsive checker? I was.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

Let me let me modify that a little bit because people will say, well, how do I not check? No, no, no, no. It's not that you're supposed to pretend it doesn't, it's not there, or like somehow magically not check and it goes away. Acknowledge, so I would change checking because I was a huge checker into acknowledge but don't evaluate. Because compulsive checking to me, which is a thing I did.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

Oh, it's coming out of them today, anyway.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Oh, yeah, I've got the my pen's running out. Boom, boom, just rabbit fire. Acknowledge but don't evaluate. I had to learn that lesson because my compulsive checking wasn't so much how do I feel, because I know how I feel. I feel terrible every all day, but is it getting worse? Is it getting how does it feel now? Am I doing uh can I fix this? Do I feel any different? Like, so I would I would just have to say, Well, yeah, I I feel crappy right now. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Release like a disordered stocking filler and just have little quotes like that. Umledge, but don't evaluate. I absolutely love that. I'm stealing that.

SPEAKER_02 16:45

Yeah, 100% use it. Uh you have my permission. You guys hear it.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Complete plagiarism. What I just came up with.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

Yeah, so it's not like compulsive checking is like really compulsive evaluating, I think.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

I love that. Yeah, because yeah, some things are automatic.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Uh, but the less evaluating in time, there'll be less checking. Yes, that's okay. Because because the because the threat response doesn't have anything, any concrete kind of threat to store in its memory bank. So it just goes, well, he didn't evaluate. I'll keep telling him to evaluate this, but the more times he doesn't, then obviously that and then nothing bad happens, then obviously this isn't really a danger.

SPEAKER_02 17:24

Yeah, what what I found was over time it was the the checking kind of stopped, even though I still felt things, and I can feel things today. I might feel anxious today. I don't know what's going to be in this afternoon. Maybe I'll be anxious. I don't know. It's just not nearly as important as it used to be. So it's like, oh, yeah, I'm having kind of an anxious day, whatever. It's like number seven on the priority list where it used to be burnt right up to number one. Everything else goes in the bank.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

Yeah. And a big one as well, like the obsessive checking. So I do I struggle with it. I honestly it it became so normal for me that I forgot I even did it. So I went to CBT and I just thought, like, just checking how I felt, I just thought was part of the overall neurotypical way of living your daily life. And then I realized actually, normally people go around constantly checking how they feel. Right. That's that's me checking on how I feel.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Yeah, and you probably didn't do that before you end up in that tough spot.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

No, maybe it would be like, oh, I'm a bit tired or I'm a bit bored or whatever, but like it was so it meant so much because I'm obsessed with how I feel, I'm obsessed with the anxiety, so I'm gonna keep checking as a compulsion to see if it's there or not. Or like I used to say, I'm checking to see if it's gone. Yeah, and the minute you check to see if it's gone, it's not gone. Exactly. It's a paradox. You never check it. One of my favorite posts I did on Instagram early on when it started, and didn't even get the recognition it deserves. So if anyone's there, scroll back three years and like it. And so and it was uh won't tell you which post it is. You find it. Yeah, yeah. Like you can never observe the moment anxiety disappears. That's correct. You can't do it. You can never observe the moment anxiety disappears. So whilst you're staring at it, it's not gonna suddenly disappear. Right. It it's magical, it's like it just yeah, it just it just disappears. It's like one of the stone angels from Doctor Who. You ever seen that? Oh, I love that. Yeah, yeah. It moves when you turn your back on it, right? And that's but the other way. So rather than it coming to attack you, it's the other way, it's the opposite of a stone angel. It's a friendly stone angel. Anxiety is a friendly stone angel. When you turn your back on it, it's off. Sorry, editing notes.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Um, we're only 18 minutes into this, and this episode is chock full of more little yummy gems than any umro in a movie.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

You just do a yum yum. Oh, my partner's gonna kill you.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

She doesn't like that.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

Oh no, probably you could have you've just lost about 5,000 followers.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Um, that obsession with anxiety it becomes self-perpetuating because if when you are obsessed with it, you it won't go away. You know, there's nothing you can you can't just decide not to be obsessed. Let's just say that right now. You can't just decide, all right. I'm not gonna be obsessed with it anymore. It doesn't work that way. But what are some of the before we get to that part, what are some of the other ways that you think being obsessed or consumed with your anxiety come out? Compulsive checking and evaluating is the first one we said.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

But I just hate it. Why can't I feel normal? Why can't I feel like the old me? What would your response to that be?

SPEAKER_02 20:32

My response to that is I feel that in my bones. I I still hate it. I don't want to have an anxious day. You're allowed to hate it. Hating it is not wrong. Hating is not a crime, wanting a better life is not a crime. Just again, be careful of the second step. I hate it, therefore I am failing, and I must make everything revolve around the fact that I hate it and I want to get away from it. No, you don't. Go ahead and hate it all you want. It's fine. Sometimes hating it is motivation and recovery. That's all right. You don't have to like it. It's okay to hate it. Just don't immerse yourself in that and turn that into your entire day.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Yeah, I've let anger actually channeling anger into exposures. I'm so sick of this. I'm just gonna do this anyway. Yep. And see what happens because anything is better than me sitting at home, ruminating, feeling sorry for myself. My 500th time on Google today, uh, compulsing, reassurance seeking, whatever. I'm just gonna do what non-anxious me would do whilst feeling like rubbish.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

That's another good way that it, you know, I hate it. I just hate it. I want it gone. It's a good one. Yeah, I hear that a lot. Yeah. 500th time on Google is another obsessive. How do you know you're obsessed with your anxiety when you are compulsively and continually resource gathering? Compulsive resource gathering.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah, and also again, mention of OCD here, uh a kind of OCD typical behavior for people with obsessive compulsive disorder. Uh, and sometimes it can be quite a niche, sometimes. Um but it's um yeah a resource gathering the feeling like you've missed something. So you know a lot of kind of stereotypes of OCD where things have got to be like in symmetry and stuff like that. It's like a la it's like a satiation say satiation. Satiation. Yeah, you go satiety. It's a s it's satiety related. It's a satiety um kind of compulsion where we can't relax and the threat response kicks off in relation to not feeling satiated. Yeah, uh, and so um that can apply to in a very niche kind of um O C D kind Allah to resource gathering around anxious obsessions. So this looks like what if I've missed something? What if there's a book out there that I've missed? What if there's a bit of information about I don't know, this philosophy that I that I've missed? Yep. It's you're looking for the final piece of a puzzle that doesn't exist.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

That never has a final piece, it's never actually finished. It was never a puzzle, right? See, they're coming from fancy theory. That is true. And I think you can also look at uh, well, let me just scroll my Facebook group one more time because this I might hear the story today that locks it all into place for me and changes everything.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

So that'll I'll find that healer, that person who I can give the credit to, yep, who has all the answers.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Yeah. And I think it's interesting because there's it that is also an insidious form of that like anxiety concession, because it's like variable, uh variable reinforcements, like a slot machine. So every time I pull that handle, this might be the time that I get the magic nugget, the magic quote, the magic Instagram post that like, so I'm gonna keep pulling that handle again and again and again and you're chasing that society. Yes, right. That that one thing, that thing I might be missing, or I need to know a little more. I will also say this, and this again is not blame, it's just you know, realization of this can be helpful. Sometimes compulsive resource gathering is a substitute for recovery. So, like, I know all the things that I'm supposed to do, but let me just gather more. Let me gather more instructions because it's easier to gather instructions than it is to follow them.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

For everything of course, absolutely, yeah. And I've done it, I must have read like Claire Weeks' book a hundred times, read your book, true. You know, I've I've even read my own book when I was realized, which is actually helpful to read it once. I was like, oh yeah, I remember the mindset I was in mind when I when I read this. When you're rereading stuff over and over again and doing all these things, like when I reread Sally Winston's therapist book and all that about fire, I was like, come on now, man. Like, there's no this has become a compulsive behavior where I'm actually giving the credit. This is why if you've not listened to the getting the credit episode, it's so important, even on a on a macro overarching scale. Yeah, is that it's gotta be you that leans into the uncertainty. You could it's okay to have tools and stuff to get there and to encourage you and to motivate you, but I mean, you know everything now. There's nothing really, uh there's no magic thing out there. Yes, in your personal life, it's always nice. Look, that is your personal life, that is your life that you've lived. Anxiety disorders follow the same kind of mechanism and algorithm. You are more than your anxiety disorder. And what's really nice in therapy is when you get to a place where that anxiety disorder isn't important anymore, and then you can sit on a therapy couch like a boring normie and talk about all the stuff about your life and things, yeah, yeah, and uh and and actually things that have happened, like important stuff that is nothing to do with the anxiety disorder, or even the impact the anxiety disorder had on you, and what you perhaps you're grieving and missed out on, whatever, it's fine. But what you've got to remember is that this is done outside the realms of the obsession with your anxiety, and when we say obsession, we're not saying oh, you're obsessing about your anxiety, whatever. No, no, no, we've been there, yeah. We get it. You're not choosing to do that, by the way. No, if any of it, you're doing it to get out because you don't want to feel this anymore. Right. We get it, right? We get it. But what we're saying is we're saying the things that didn't help us. I was obsessed with these things, and it's like I didn't realize that I was the coping mechanism, I was the tool, I was the technique this whole time. I just can't believe it. I couldn't believe it. It must be in the in the arms and the knowledge of this healer or this external thing from me. And um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Let's do uh let's do another one. Like you know, you're obsessed with anxiety when socially anxiety becomes your haven. So you only want to be around other people that have, especially in the era of the internet, when we can be. You know, I I my social connections are all based on anxiety support groups or my my in-person support group and anxious people and people who will understand forums. Yes, forums, like no one else understands. So I just only want to hang out with these people. And when I hit a rough patch in the rest of the world, I run back to my safe haven of other anxious people who will tell me it's okay. That's another like real obsession. How much of your social interaction is based on is with other people who are struggling? And so community is great, don't get me wrong, you need support, but is it your only social interaction? That's another good indicator that you're a little bit upset, yeah, and that's the thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

And we've got to be careful here because, like, yeah, maybe you've actually met like legit kind of friends there, and over time, of course, when it just be careful about the relationship you have with it. If it becomes something that ultimately is something that is an unhealthy place to be, so you know, you're on there and you've posted for the 50th time that week because you're seeking compulsive reassurance, um, then yeah, maybe that's not the way to go. If it's uh, you know, I'm in an alright place now and I'm checking in, and you know, maybe someone needs a bit of help and advice or whatever, and or we're just having a chat about the latest, I don't know, TV program or this specific forum, that's okay. But what's your relationship with it? If it's if it's because your whole world is about how your anxiety and how you feel, and again, it's okay to share how bad the experience is with people. We're not saying it's not, and it sucks. Um I'm a bit annoyed because I didn't have those forums and stuff when I when I had my anxiety, it was just me. But actually looking back, that was a help. Yeah, I I had I was like, okay, it's me, my Claire Weeks book, uh, you know, and let's crack on with it. You know, rather than you know, I could have gone down the hole of seeking forums and different forums and stuff like that, and started a cycle of compulsive reassurance seeking, and I'd never get there. And a lot of these forums as well, they they talk about uh unhelpful things, you know, like I've tried this, have you tried that, have you tried herbal tea, have you tried all these, and then and then it starts promoting safety behaviors anyway. Yeah, that's what I wanted to say.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

That's that's another another forum. So, what do we do about like okay? So, I'm a little bit I want to say, I'm gonna stop saying obsessed. I am consumed by my anxiety. What what do we do? And again, you can't just decide to stop feeling that way or stop thinking that. So, what what what we do to start to pry ourselves away a little bit from being consumed for me sometimes, it's literally planning.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

One of the most common things I hear is one of my rules is do what non-anxious you would do. And some people have been so anxious for so long, they're like, I don't know what non-anxious me would do. So I'll be like, well, then let's write out your entire day. Yeah, try some stuff. Ten minutes by ten minutes. Really? That's that's really laborious. Well, yeah. Because if you don't know how to behave, and like you said before, you know, behave how you want to feel, if you don't know how to behave like a non-anxious person, then it's gonna be a self-fulfilling prophecy that anxiety is going to be there because you don't know how to behave otherwise. So I sometimes I literally write out, and that's fine, no shame. Like, what would non-anxious me ideally, even hypothetically, do tomorrow? Right. See how much of that you can do. Great start. And you'd find that non-anxious you wouldn't be on Amazon fight buying your 15th self output, you wouldn't be on WebMD looking at the uh you know the potential side effects of Artivan. Yeah, you wouldn't be doing these things, you wouldn't even probably be listening to this podcast, although you're probably doing it for the humor. Um, I tell you, uh I tell you what you're not obsessed with, Drew. Fashion.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

Oh no, no, it's following us as fashion obsessed.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

They're recovering from the fashion obsessed, just a shot fired from nowhere. They're like absolutely nowhere. There was no need for that. You were just fishing, and I just came over and kicked you in the canal.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

Yeah, so good. Um yeah, or you wouldn't be, you know, you wouldn't be checking your Facebook group again to see, oh, are there any new posts? You know, that I something important might be there. So, you know, uh it's sometimes you have to try things in that situation. I don't know what to do. I don't know what nine. Well then just you have to try a thing.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

Maybe try and find I know it sounds bad, like finding a hobby can actually be quite fun. I've tried loads of stuff, yeah. Loads of stuff I didn't like, but I'm kind of glad I did it. And I found some cool stuff. I played the lamest sport in the world, pickleball, uh, in the UK. It's so lame, it's a cult. Everyone is well weird. I'm one of those weirdos, and I love it. I've realized I've really enjoy it. It's lovely, and when I say well weird, they're lovely. Uh, I've made some good friends, and also I don't want to um insult the supreme leader, but in general, um, I I went along, I was like, I'm not gonna like that, and I did. Who knew?

SPEAKER_02 32:11

You like who knew? Yeah, so it's a matter of trying stuff. That's why I have these silly guitars behind me. You guys always see on video. Like, are you annoyed? He's never played once. I I'm never gonna play it on screen. I posted my recording once years ago on Facebook. I'm never doing that again. But like I was just like, I gotta try some stuff here because I I lost my full-time job as an anxious person, so I gotta find some new employment. Like, I gotta just try some stuff. So that is definitely one way to start to slowly pry yourself away from being consumed all the time with your anxiety. Act, do something that's not anxiety related. But let's acknowledge that that feels like a roll of the dice. If you are to act how you want to feel, by the way. Yeah, yeah. I probably didn't make that up. I'm sure other people have said that, but we'll just apply it in this.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

But uh just take credit for it.

SPEAKER_02 32:57

I'm gonna totally take credit for it. Yeah, copyright.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

You probably like stepped on the carbonyl shoes of copyrighted at this point.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

He's like, I'm I'm never talking to that guy again. But uh, and I think notice that when you do that, when you start to step away from that or step out of that compulsive or like that all-consuming cycle, like it will feel wrong. It's gonna feel like this is not right. This is dangerous, this is irresponsibility, I'm gonna miss something, being reckless with my health and my recovery. You gotta roll those dice and see what happens. Oh, look, I tried pickleball or I tried playing the harp for 15 minutes. I hated it, but nothing bad happened to me because I concentrated on my harmonica instead of my anxiety for a half hour.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

And those with fierce internal critics don't be like, Oh, what's the point? That hobby was rubbish, I can't find anything. No, like well done. You tried some tried something. Yeah, I tried rowing, it wasn't for me.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

Rowing, like on the lake, on a river? Yeah, yeah.

unknown 33:58

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

British, man. We all row. So that's only how we get to places, we just row back, just row backwards.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

It's how we get to places. There are no cars in England.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Everybody everyone's just rowing backwards, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:14

Um but you gotta try things, and and you're rolling the dice every time you walk, step back from that. Like, I'm I'm obsessed with my anxiety, it feels wrong on a variety of levels that will be individual, and might change from minute to minute for you, even. But can't do that. What if I miss something?

SPEAKER_00 34:31

And some of you are probably thinking, yeah, oh, this is rich from people who have recorded hours of anxiety content, who post anxiety content, who write books and have you know social media content. And I'm literally called anxiety Josh. Well, my I'm not literally called that, that would be horrendously sadistic and fatalistic for my mother to do that. But uh, but I'm called anxiety Josh and the anxious truth. But the reason why, but but when we're not doing this, yep, I am gonna go home and do something completely non-anxiety related because I need to switch off from it. I don't want to do that, you know. I love talking about it from a in a from a healthy perspective. Uh I love talking about it with Drew, and I love making social media content, but that's about two, three hours a day. Uh and when I've seen clients, obviously, and stuff, but that's different. That's the kind of therapy as well in itself. And I love doing therapy. But in general, as anxiety is a topic, I leave it alone, it's gone. You will not hear me talking. I go back to being Josh Fletcher at the in the evening, and I will be, you know, just doing what I do, um, drinking whiskey and crying in the garden. No, I'm not I'm not doing that.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

I'm not doing non-anxiety, Josh, and it's so disturbing.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Non-anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

We don't want to hear from non-anxiety, trust me on this. But uh that's true. That's why people will say sometimes I've I've been sometimes I'm not gonna say maligned, but certainly questioned. Like, how come you never post like that you're at this place, or you you don't remember when checking into places on social media was like, Yeah, we never see your family, like, yeah, because I have another life, like it's not just this. But back in the day when I was glued to my anxiety, there was no other life. It was my life, and so just slowly, little by little, you're rolling the dice of like, what if I don't make it my life for 10 minutes and then 15 minutes and then 20 minutes? What happens? Nothing bad, nothing bad happens.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

And and and imagine a day, and I imagine this to you now. Imagine a day where our voices are not needed, it's just voices of the past that helped you on your way somewhere, you know, and I think that's really important. Um we Drew and I have had this conversation multiple times, but there'll be a stage where you know you don't need this, you don't need our voices anymore, you know, and we just it'd be an honor, we'd be more happy, and it'd be an honor to be part of someone who actually doesn't even think about us anymore because you don't need to. Your life is not obsessed with anxiety anymore. We were just voices that kind of help you get to a place where because your life's way more interesting.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

Yeah, it is a hundred percent, and it will be again one day, even though right now maybe you won't feel that way. You can get there. There you can do it.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

It's just that a nice warm fuzz, then is that is that self-righteousness, or is it just actually being yeah, not many pod, not many anxiety people tell you that, you know, like stop listening to them.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

Yeah, like how many podcasters are telling you to stop listening to their podcast? There'll be a happy day that then when you listen to the last episode of Disorder, like it is yeah, and then we'll sucker punch them later.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Then we'll write co-write a book called Wait, you miss something. No, no, no, joking with me. Wait, that'll be so what you actually missed.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

No, no, no, no, we wouldn't do that. You've never heard before about anxiety. Good.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

But it's okay, it's just pictures of me and you dancing.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

Um then they'll need different therapy after that.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Uh I've got any did it anyway, so I think we'll leave it. We do.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Let's wrap it up. We'll do our usual did it anyways. We'll do a question from the audience. So if you guys want to send in a did it anyway or ask us a question, you could just go to disorder.fm and send us an email or hit the little blue button and record us a voicemail. We love those. Those are like our favorite little toy. So um, you want me to do the did anyway, or do you want to do the question first?

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Um, I'll do the question. All right, let's do it. Um, hi, love the podcast. Thank you very much. I just wanted to ask were there times in your anxiety recovery where you struggle with the thought of, oh, I'm just not going to get better. I don't see how I can recover from this. It's an intrusive thought I struggle with that brings a lot of anxiety. I've been working hard to tolerate and push myself to do activities. Well done, in spite of how I'm feeling, but this is a thought that keeps cropping up. Thank you. Oh no, I'm not going to get better. I just don't see how I can recover from this. Come on, Drew, over to you.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Oh, we talked about this earlier in the episode. I admittedly, you know, I'll always be honest with you guys. I really never had the thought I'm never going to get better. I don't know, maybe that makes me unusual, but I never really had that thought. I would get frustrated, I would get impatient, I would get angry with the pace of recovery. I would feel those things. This is taking too long, but I never think I don't think I ever got to the point where it's like I'm never going to get better.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

Okay. Drew was useless on that one. I was useless on that one. So for those for you that it's not you have to have to be a balance. I've written down about 50 nice things, amazing things you said today. Uh, but for some people who do struggle with the self-down, we did talk about that. I see myself as an obstacle, get over. That is an internal voice where I would reframe that. It's not something you're not unwell. I'd reframe it to I can how can I make sure that my threat response fires off less? What am I doing that's keeping my threat response on alert? Because you've formulated the problem like anxiety is this insidious disease that's waking up and shaking you and hurting you and flaring off, whatever. No, a lot of what uh uh constitutes an anxiety disorder is actually what's keeping us there. So you you could you could be one of the compulsive checkers that we've spoken about today, but this episode could actually be tailored for you in the sense that actually I'm obsessed with it, the mere presence of it there is a symbol of my failure, it's never gonna go away. Well, actually, and this is where we also get willful tolerance, prepare and listen to the attitudinal shift episode, the attitude shift, about well, I'm allowing it to be there and let the paradox of recovery kick in. You'll love that. So, yeah, I strongly recommend go listening to the attitude shift podcast because when you have that emotional attachment to it, which is oh, I'm never gonna get better, well, you're signaling to the brain and and subscribing to a belief that you're unwell. Now, don't get me wrong, anxiety can make you feel unwell and just do that. But actually, it's a I love calling it a disorder, things just aren't in order. You can turn off the threat response, but when we have that attitude towards the threat response, it still thinks it's being super important. So, yeah, go listen to Attitude Shift and um good question as well, and well done for doing the stuff as well. I'm still doing and doing these activities. Forgot to mention that. And you know what?

SPEAKER_02 41:23

I think that's the best response to that. That card, you can't stop your brain from saying that. What if I never get better? And the answer is, well, let me go do something for myself. But you're doing, you're already doing it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

What if I never get better? Is that gonna stop me from eating this pizza? Right. Hell no. Yeah, absolutely not. Any did it anyways to close up?

SPEAKER_02 41:40

Yeah, we haven't quite did it anyway. This is a good one. I think you guys are gonna enjoy this. So, um, again, if you ever want us to actually say your name, just tell us. Otherwise, we won't. Um, I haven't did it anyway, story. Oh, feel free to use my name. This is from Lexi. Thank you for sharing, Lexi. I'm very proud that I did it. I went to Disney World and Universal Studios in Florida a few months ago. I have OCD, panic anxiety, panic disorder, agoraphobia, and social anxiety. I went with a friend of mine who knew that I would have issues while we were there, but she was fine with it. Good for your friend. Um, I had panic attacks every day, even with my normal medication in Xanax. But except for those moments when I had to stop and live through the panic, I had a great time. I'm scared to go again since when I'm triggered, I want to avoid these situations again, but I am so proud that I made it and I have pictures to prove I was there.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Love it. Love it. Come on, guys. I need some applause. That's absolutely amazing. Yeah, well done. That's absolutely we've actually got Goofy in the audience today who was uh really enjoyed that one. Do you know what I loved about that as well? So good. I lived through it. Yes, I did it. I I did it. I lived through the panic. Of course you did. You always did it. I enjoyed myself at Disney and fair play. I imagine Disney World to be quite overwhelming as well, with joy, happiness, and people. Um, and yeah, well done. That's amazing. We love that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Yeah, really good. I also love how she says she acknowledges I'm scared to go again since you know I don't want to be triggered. That's okay to acknowledge that, but you did it, and you can use this experience to lean on next time you do something.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Superb. Final call for any UK or European listeners. Um, trying to get more reviews on Spotify and Apple Podcast, but not for us. We've got some lovely reviews. I'm just trying to beat Drew's and US audience. So if you're a UK listener and you can drop us an Apple Podcast review, like we can try and overtake the US version. Because I didn't realize that you only see your native reviews in your country. So you said you had like a hundred, we're only on like 40 odd something now. Come on, UK guys. Come on, let's let's let's do this. And then I can mock Drew and to the point where his family disown him and shame him.

SPEAKER_02 43:43

Like six times the number of people. So, you know, maybe we have to wait that or something. Come on, come on, Brits. Let's do it. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Thank you for thank you for tuning in, guys. And thank you, Drew, as always.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

See you next week. I'll be back to wrap it up in a second. Hey, it's Drew. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Disordered. Josh and I both hope that you're finding it helpful in some way. For more information about Josh or me or the Disordered Podcast, find us on the web at disordered.fm. That's disordered.fm. Hop on over and find links to our social media platforms, join our mailing list so we can let you know when new podcast episodes are available, and we'll send you easy ways to ask us questions and share your wins, so we can answer questions on the air and share your successes with the community. And if you're listening to the podcast, on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any platform that lets you rate a review, do us a favor and leave us a five-star rating and maybe write a review if you're digging disorder. It really helps us out, and we appreciate that. Thanks again for coming by, and we'll see you in the next episode.