How Long Does De-Sensitization Take? (Episode 128)

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hi June Josh. My name is Felicia, and you can use my name as long as you don't make the stupid My Felicia joke. In a nutshell, about two years ago, I had a major medical emergency and hot on the heels of a map. A friend of mine took her own life, and then major world events hit me very personally, and I fell into what can only be called endless panic attacks. I had endless panic attacks for weeks. Then I became abortophobic and I didn't even know what was happening to me. With the help of my regular therapist, my talk therapist, I was able to get out of it a little bit, but then fell back in maybe even deeper. Through your podcast, I actually realized that I have OCD. Um I have existential OCD, which is a big pain in the butt for many reasons. Um one of which is, you know, it's a chameleon and it's really hard to figure out that you have it, but with the help of your podcast, I found a therapist who specializes in OCD, and she's amazing, and she's really, really helped me. So I've tons of did it anyways, have gone on trips all over, in airplanes, by myself, back engaged in my life with my kids, doing my work that I love. But my question to you is even after almost a year and a half of recovery, I still have really, really hard days and really, really hard moments. And I don't know if this is reassurance seeking, but is there a timeline? That may be a tricky question, but I wanted to know if maybe there was one. Thank you so much. I love you guys. Bye.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 128 called Hi Felicia. Today's episode is actually called How Long Until I'm Desensitized? Um, we were originally going to call this episode How Long Does Recovery Take? But as you've heard from previous episodes, I'm just gonna ban that word because it's not helpful, suggests a singularity, not an attitude shift. My name's Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist, author who specializes in the topic of anxiety disorders. I'm based in Manchester, and I really enjoy talking about this topic, previous sufferer of it, and it's one of my favorite times of the week. And I'm joined by my co-host.

SPEAKER_04 2:35

Yes, all the way from New York. I'm Drew Linsalata, the other guy with a microphone on disordered. Um, I'm also a therapist that specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders, also a former sufferer of the very things we talk about here, clearly a podcast host. I post on social media, I talk about this stuff all day long because I'm a big nerd and I love it. And uh yeah, I'm kind of happy to be here. Hi, Felicia. Good job, Felicia.

SPEAKER_03 2:58

That is good. It's really good. Some really good work, and that's what we always start on in a good place. But obviously, as we know with anxiety, particularly OCD, it wants certainty, a singularity, a measurable, identifiable thing that we can be like, yeah, yeah, that's it. I've done it now, it's over. But the irony is if you're asking yourself, is it over? It's probably not over because you still care. And so desensitization is what we well, I like to propagate anyway. I'm not going to speak on behalf of Drew, but how long does it take for me to desensitize? And I think that's the accurate question that everyone with an anxiety disorder should be asking themselves. Because sometimes we can become resensitized. This happened to me, you know, happens to many people. But when you start saying, Oh, I'm recovered, and then you say, Oh, I'm no longer recovered, it kind of suggests that, oh no, no, do you know that wound I had in my leg, you know, and I had it zipped up? Yeah, yeah. This morning it exploded, you know, again, and I have to stitch it back up again. It's like, no, that's not the imagery or or the approach we take. Just how long does it take for me to desensitize?

SPEAKER_04 4:14

What are your thoughts? I like it. I know, I know you've been on a crusade to eliminate the word recovery. I'm I'm with you on that. And I kind of dig in desensitization. I'm gonna take it for a spin for the next few weeks. We'll see how it feels. Try it on. And I think desensitization makes sense because it really the state you're looking for is how long does it take for me to get to the point where I have a very triggering thought in the case of OCD, or maybe I had a panic attack because and I haven't had one in six months, but I had one yesterday. How long does it take for me to recognize that that might happen sometimes? But it's okay. I don't have to take special evasive action, I don't have to declare myself broken, I don't have to, you know, go back and listen to the podcast again. I don't have to do like no, I don't have to fix it. It's okay because it's gonna come and go, and and I can handle that. Like that's that's the point you want to get to. And I think you're desensitized to your to your own scary thoughts and emotions and bodily sensations. It's probably probably accurate. How long does it take to get there?

SPEAKER_03 5:09

Yeah, and desensitization in the case of in the case of Felicia. So uh desensitization in the case of Felicia is what if this never goes away? What if the universe is infinite? What is consciousness, whatever the strand of your existential OCD? And desensitization is oh, there's that thought. Right, what was I doing? Yeah, that's it. Yeah, exactly. That's it.

SPEAKER_04 5:33

Well, I don't there's that thought, and oh I get that big rush of like I don't like this, like a scariness or whatever. But all right, what was I doing while I'm scared? It'll dissipate. I know I don't have to dig into this. So don't it it will it'll make you upset. There's no doubt about that, but okay. Oh, but sometimes it won't. Oh, that's true. That's a really good point because I've actually had people, even in my practice, they're like, well, I'm but I had that thought again. I'm like, okay, but what was the impact? Oh, kind of nothing. All right, then what then it's not a discussable thing. You had a thought. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:06

And most people with OCD and anxiety will tell you they've had a previous theme that they've had that consumed their life, that made them feel horrendous, and then the new one comes along, and the other one they become desensitized to because they weren't engaging in fixing compulsions and trying to fix themselves or fighting the thoughts. And when I ask them, well, well, what do you feel about that thought now? And they're like, Oh, I I don't care about that. It's this new what if that's now scary. Well, you become desensitized to the other one, you just didn't realize you did because you stopped compulsing. Yeah. So what I'd say to Felicia is it's not about getting rid of the thoughts. And if when you use the word like recovery, how long does recovery take? No, what you should be asking yourself is I wonder how long I could it can take me to become desensitized to this because I don't want it to affect my life. That's the more accurate reframe.

SPEAKER_04 7:01

I think the hard days, I mean, I can I can appreciate what she's saying here, like, but sometimes I have really hard days. Like, how do you define the hard day? Some days I just feel it more. If the the the feeling, the thoughts seem louder or they seem more frequent, and the feelings they produce just feel very powerful. Well, some days you're more resilient than others. Me too, like all of us. Some days we're more flexible than others. Some days I can shrug my shoulders at a skipped heartbeat. Some days it'll take me down for a few minutes, you know. Like that's kind of normal. So I think it's how do you I would start with, well, how long does it take to become desensitized? Well, uh, what do you define as a hard day? And I suspect that your hard day definition today is very different than what a hard day definition was a year ago, year and a half ago, when you're really struggling. So, you know, what does it mean? You feel it more or you feel it more intensely? Okay, that can happen.

SPEAKER_03 7:55

Do you know what a hard day is, according to Daniel Powder, the Canadian musician?

SPEAKER_04 8:00

Oh wow, but what is it? What is a hard day?

SPEAKER_03 8:03

Because you've had a hard hard day. Yeah. Uh it means the camera doesn't lie. You work up a smile and you go for a ride. You repeat that you've had a hard day again. I'm gonna shut up. Would you like to hear it did it anyway?

SPEAKER_04 8:18

Yes, let's hear it did it anyway before Josh quotes more Canadian music. Uh this is from True. Oh no, you're you're playing one. I was gonna play one.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

I was gonna read one. No, you play one, that's cool.

SPEAKER_04 8:29

I'm gonna leave that in. I'm not even gonna edit that. Like behind the scenes, this is BTS with disordered. All right, I'll play it. Then we'll do a written one too. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Hi, Drew, and Josh. This is Helen from the Wirral uh near Liverpool. Um, I just wanted to share my did it anyway, which was traveling down to London. I've got some health issues that I need to see some doctors in London for. Not only was you know, I'm not feeling well physically, but the anxiety-inducing tests and travelling down on the train, but I did it alongside my anxiety. I got on the tube, I had bloods taken, I had loads of tests done. Was I anxious? Yes, I was. Did I allow it to stop me moving forward? No, I did not. And this is the second trip into London that I've had to do, and I definitely felt less adrenaline spikes, more accepting it was gonna come, but it was also gonna go. So, just to anybody who's struggling, I just want to say keep going. And sometimes that's gonna mean taking the anxiety in your pocket with you, but it is worth it in the end, I promise you. Thanks for everything you do. Bye.

SPEAKER_04 9:54

Helen out there killing it, love it.

SPEAKER_03 9:57

Yes, Helen, pick up the Northwest as well. It's over in the Wirral. The Wirral. Uh yeah, it's about a 40-minute drive from me. Well done, Helen. That's really brave and and with multiple factors as well. You know, uh, the anxiety plus you're not feeling great, and you manage to do it anyway. And it's also really sweet that you encourage others as well. It's uh it's a good indicator of who you are as a person. I love that.

SPEAKER_04 10:20

Yeah, we get another one of those later too. I I love when you guys cheer for each other. That's actually the best thing that I have on social media, too. Do you ever do a social media post on Instagram or whatever? And then like you don't look at it for a while and you comment, and your comment section is just a long conversation between three or four people, like all cheering for each other, like in front of it. Like, that's the best thing about social media right there.

SPEAKER_03 10:38

Well, that's why that's what's gonna happen in the disordered app, isn't it? That's why we're doing it, so people can feel a sense of camaraderie.

SPEAKER_04 10:45

Can I read my Yes, since I so rudely interrupted you with all my audio equipment? You and Helen. Come on, Helen. Come on, Helen, let's go step on Josh again. Let's do it, you and me. Well done, Helen.

SPEAKER_03 10:57

Uh this is from Kristen. I wanted to share an OCD win with everyone. So it's on point for today's episode. Um, yes, you can use my name. I'm well into my ERP journey and I've noticed a dramatic reduction in OCD symptoms. However, like anyone, I still have days where the bubble sucks me in. Yesterday was a loud OCD day. I had a hair appointment and found myself on the hamster wheel. Definitely was wanting to stay at home because what if any of those what ifs come true? What if I just couldn't cope? Well, guess what? I took all those what ifs with me and went anyway. I didn't announce to my stylist that I was anxious like I used to. Went in with the intentions of giving her 51% of my attention. I ended up giving her and the environment 95% of my attention and left there feeling worlds better than when I had arrived. I ended up finishing the day running other errands I was going to put off. Not every day is easy, but not every day is as hard as it once was. I encourage everyone to stick up to the stick to the small steps as they amount to big steps eventually. Much love from Kristen.

SPEAKER_04 12:14

Oh, great job, Kristen. Love it.

SPEAKER_03 12:17

That was amazing. I love that. I love the the prep for it as well. Like, no, I'm gonna do it. Yeah what what is in my power, well, attention's always in my power. Not 100% of it, but I can use as much as I can and stick to it. And then you Billy Mazed it as well. So not only did you get your hair done and it looks wonderful, and everyone swoons in your presence because your hair looks wonderful, you went and did other errands as well, which is so good. Well done, Kristen.

SPEAKER_04 12:44

I I really appreciate that. You know, the other thing that's in your control, how do you talk about it? So I love the part when she's like, I did not tell the stylist that I was anxious, which I would normally do. Yeah, very good.

SPEAKER_03 12:55

Which sometimes which is okay if you want to, if you're starting out, but it sounds like Kristen noticed that it was a compulsive behavior. Yeah, so it's completely okay to tell people if you're anxious. I I don't rule that out, but Kristen's noticed actually I keep doing this, let's step it up a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 13:11

Yeah. I think there's a difference too, and then we'll get back on topic, I promise, between like, hey, um, I if I'm a little fidgety or I look a little bit off, I'm really anxious today, but it's okay. I'm I'm working on it, I'm handling it. It's okay. Don't ask me about it. Sometimes sometimes that's a great way to talk about it. But if the talking about it is compulsively like, I'm so anxious, my anxiety's through the roof today. This is terrible, this is hell. I don't know what's going on. Why is this happening to me? Yeah, you gotta kind of stop doing that after a while. So great job, Kristen. I'm sure the hair looked great too, unlike mine. So yeah, it's not why you always wear a cat. So this morning I definitely definitely threw the hat on. I'm like, this is not working out today. So anyway, um, well, it's early here. Give me a break. Um how as if I really care anyway. But how long does it take then? Come on, man, how long does it take to be desensitized?

SPEAKER_03 14:00

Um how long is a piece of string? Um, well, the one on my desk is I would measured it before, is it's uh 4.3 centimeters. But the point I'm making is everyone's different. It depends on the variables in your life. Um it's not a competition. Sometimes it depends on how long you've been in uh on the hamster wheel and the habits that you've developed with anxiety. Um, it depends. Some people take to it like a Dr. Water because they can. Maybe the variables in their life are favorable, you know. They maybe they um it's not got to the point where it's all consuming. And some people like, well, actually, this has been me for 10, 20 odd years. Um, I've got some seriously ingrained habits and some fears that I need to break down. So for me as a therapist, I don't know what you do, it doesn't matter. We get there when we get there. You know, as long as you keep trying, as long as you keep seeing the improvements and proving yourself wrong, well, your anxious self wrong. That for me is the trajectory, and that's all we ask for. But you know, it it's a common question you ask, and actually it's a big red flag when someone says, Oh, I'll get you fixed in four, six, eight weeks. No one who actually understands anxiety disorders would ever give you that guarantee. Yeah, you just keep going, you keep building on it. It is possible.

SPEAKER_04 15:26

You know, I think one of the things, and and you know, this is what we do for a living, or at least part of what we do for a living. We're guilty of it too, though. Not we, I mean the the royal we, an anxiety specialist, and and that whole CBT and the research behind it, because we we are the kings of manualized treatment. So like manualized DRP says yeah, it's all 20-something sessions usually.

unknown 15:47

Come on.

SPEAKER_04 15:48

Is it like has anybody listen listening like fully like overcame their OCD in 22 weeks because you know EdenFo has said you should? Like, no, it never works that way. It just doesn't work that way. But I think that's unfortunately you hear things like, well, CBT tends to be shorter duration, which is true, uh but there's no timeline. No single person has a timeline. You get there when you get there, like Josh said, and you get there how you get there. Because you're not an anxiety disorder with legs. You have an entire life and a culture and beliefs and a family background and lived experiences, and like all of that stuff comes together to influence how you apply these principles, how you do the mechanics, how often you do it, how often do you practice, how willing are you to challenge your old beliefs? All of those things enter into this picture. And I think some people are hey, listen, hey, some people are just more sensitive than others, and that's not a crime. We need all the different people in the world. And that means that some people will be a little bit more prone to feel like, oh, today was such a hard day, I'm failing, or I'm not making progress, or it's coming back. Other people can shake off a hard day a little bit more easily, but that's okay. That's just an individual difference, and we can work with that too. So there's no answer to this. How long does it take? I don't know. As long as it takes. Are there factors that you think can contribute, not makes one person match another person, but what are the factors, and maybe that's a loaded question, that helps any individual person maybe move along at a more consistent pace.

SPEAKER_03 17:20

Um again, it's self-compassion. If I'm if I'm being honest, as a therapist, and I hear this a lot, when people say, like, how long does this take? How long does recovery take? In my head, often my head goes, maybe this person has perfectionism or perfectionistic tendencies. Maybe they feel the pressure to get better because other people are relying on them, maybe, or something. There's a pressure there. And the people who recover, I just use the word recover.

SPEAKER_04 17:52

Ejected, getting kicked out of his own podcast.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

The people who become desensitized quicker are the people that are willing to lose that urgency quicker. Like, okay, this is the situation. I'm sensitized at the moment. This Nate requires compassion, kindness, and time and patience. Ironically, and again with the with an anxiety disorder. Ironically, the people that accept, okay, this is where I'm at, and this is gonna take a bit of time, and I'm gonna be my friend, they get desensitized quicker than the person who's like, I need to get this, how long? Yeah, you know, how long can I do this? Sean Kasam said I could do it in four weeks. Yeah, well, you just put an extra pressure on yourself because then what happens when you get to four weeks or whatever, and then you're like, Oh, I'm still here, I'm failing. And then suddenly Craig the Critic gets really louder. Is he in the building today, by the way?

SPEAKER_04 18:46

Yeah, he's he's always in the building lurking.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

It's Craig the Critic. Why aren't you doing that? Yeah, and that don't let Craig the Critic infiltrate the narrative of recovery, which is I acknowledge what's happening, I'm compassionate, I realize this takes time, um, and that's okay. You know, but when you add pressure to recover, it has the opposite effect. I must be completely desensitized before my friend's wedding. No, go to your friend's wedding sensitized, you know. Um and that's the examples that we're hearing in these uh did it anyways. Yeah. You know, I was just willing to do it. Helen, you know, I'm willing to do it. I've got to go down there, so I'm willing to do it. Yeah, that's why Helen's doing really well.

SPEAKER_04 19:29

Which means it's gonna be hard, which means I might struggle, which which means I can't I can't beat on myself and declare failure because today was harder than yesterday. On on myself, thank you. You should see this stupid grin. Across an entire ocean, the juvenileity is shining through. I cannot with this.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

But I can't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_04 19:55

I don't know. I'm completely serious here, says Josh. I will not beat myself up because I had a hard day. Seriously. No, you're right. You're sorry, I was being real. And I think it's totally, hey, listen, I'm here for it. I'm no more mature than you are, dude. So like I'll call myself out. What yes, kindness because you're gonna have to have patience. And you have to recognize, and I think our friend Kim, Kim Quinlan, she talks about this a lot. She's really good at explaining this. You have to remember that you're trying to do a hard thing. Yeah, exposures are mechanically hard because they're really scary and challenging. You're also often challenging very long-standing beliefs that that, like, no, no, yeah, I hear you. Acceptance and tolerance, cool, but really, I want to use acceptance and tolerance to control. And it takes a long time for people to recognize sometimes, oh, I still hold the control belief and I'm really trying really hard to control. I just wrapped it in tolerance and acceptance. Oh, those don't, those don't mix. That's like oil and water, they don't go together.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

The moment you realize that willful tolerance and acceptance of things are not tools to be picked up and applied to something. Yeah, it's no, it's it's an attitude.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

But that takes a while to come to that, like just knowing, recognizing, like, oh wait, I'm actually changing a belief. I'm I'm literally like challenging a long-standing belief system or a long strategy that I've held. And you got to be nice to yourself because you will invariably hang on like hot death to the old strategy and the hot belief, like we all did, and everybody does. So that's part of the timeline as well. And you can't techniqueify that either. You think you can. Oh, now that I know that I'm trying to control, I'll just stop trying to do that. See me in two weeks. It'll just happen little by little. It's okay. Patience.

SPEAKER_03 21:38

So when you're asking, you know, how long does recovery take, honestly, that rec that how long to be desensitized? And if you're someone who asks yourself that, I strongly, strongly recommend to reframe that question as okay, I'm intrigued and curious to how long. It can take for me to desensitize myself to these feelings I don't like. Whether they're symptoms, derealization, scary thoughts, palpitations, and whatever. You know, that's the question you should be asking. It's it's semantics are powerful, and we've done an episode on this. The words you use are so powerful, the way you create that narrative is very powerful. It's okay, how long, how long can it take for me to desensitize myself to this, you know, without pressure? I'm curious to see how long it would take. I remember actually in the mid-as I'm talking, I remember in the midst of having panic. I was on a bus and I was having a panic attack, and I knew I was going to a good place because I was the adrenaline rush was kicking in, and I was sat at the back, and I remember having that curiosity amongst the fear and chaos. I had this curiosity of, oh, I wonder how long it will take for me to be okay with this feeling today. It was almost like a challenge. And then, and then when you take nervousness and excitement as physiologically the same thing, by the way, you can get to that um that process. And that's when you know you're doing well. But if you're the person sat in there going, oh no, I'm having a panic attack on the bus, I've got, you know, I've got a meal I'm going to in four weeks, I'm never gonna feel better again. How long's this gonna take? You know, where's the technique? I'm failing, I can't find it, then you're gonna keep banging your head against the wall. You know, it's just like, how good am I at being anxious? And that on the other side of that coin is okay, the more I practice on being good at being anxious, the less sensitized I am to this feeling.

SPEAKER_04 23:40

Yeah. Another drawback to that though is for everybody, all both of us too, you are anxious in that moment. If I have an anxious day, I am having an anxious day. Like I can't, I'm not it there is no way for me to not have that day. So for me, the challenge becomes staying in touch with oh, I see what's going on here. I'm having an experience that I really don't like. And it's okay to not like it. Nobody which we're not trying to learn to like being anxious, but we're trying to learn that we do not have to treat it like an emergency. That's the difference. So, like, I'm having an experience that I don't like right now and I'm fighting it. What have how quickly can I stop fighting it? Because the instant reaction is to push against it for every human being. But once you catch it, that's the desensitization. And it takes a long time to get there. There was a lot of practice, a lot of practice that gets me to like, oh, oh yeah, here I am. I'm I'm fighting it. Let me let go and let it play itself out. And sure enough, it becomes a more tolerable experience, even though I still don't like it. But you don't have to like it. You just have to learn that it's not an emergency. Yeah. And that takes a while. It takes a while. I I think if you're asking the question why, that's 10 that tends to increase your time. Like in the beginning, everybody has a right to know why, and everybody wants to know why. And it's normal, like, oh, frustration why is different than control why. You know, so if you're having, you know, Felicia's having a a good run and then suddenly she has a couple of bad days, you got to look for, but why? Why is this happening? Why is this happening? I'm pissed off because I've been having a few good days, and uh, I don't like that I have to do this now because I want to have more good days. Yeah, get it. Why is this happening to me? Come on, give me a break. But why? Why does it happen? What why is it happening? When how can it stop happening? What do I have to do?

SPEAKER_03 25:20

And that's the moment you've lost the willful of willful tolerance. That's I love it. I love I love springing that really righteously and smugly in my practice. Like I've just delivered it for the first time. You know, I'll sit there and I'll just I'll look up and put my cigar down. Like, it's because you lost the willful in tolerance.

SPEAKER_04 25:42

You're like Captain Quint in Jaws in that moment. Josh Channeling is in a Robert Shaw from 1974, whatever it was. But yeah, you're right. But everybody's gonna lose the willful some days. You you can't always be willful.

SPEAKER_03 25:58

Even yeah, I do sometimes. 100%.

SPEAKER_04 25:59

You're having a bad day or whatever, you're stressed, you got under some emotional load. I'm just not terribly willful today because I kind of hate the world. All right, no problem. That was a tough day. It happens. Yeah, try again tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 26:09

Yeah, completely. Yeah, would you like another written did it anyway?

SPEAKER_04 26:12

I would, and then I'll play an audio one. How's that?

SPEAKER_03 26:15

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_04 26:16

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

Uh, I don't think this person said I could use their name, so I'll read it anyway. Hi, Josh and Drew. I just want to say thank you both for the podcast alongside a lovely, alongside a lovely therapist. You have really helped educate me on why I feel and experience anxiety and panic in the way that I do, so that I no longer feel broken and in fear I was damaged. That's great to know. To the point, I am considering a career change to help others too. Once I feel confident I'm healthy. Well, that's really good. We could always use another anxiety disorder-informed therapist. Um, I wanted to share a did it anyway and hope to further share a really big did it anyway. 18 months ago, I was abroad and experienced a traumatic incident in which involved a hospital visit after a drug-related incident. This caused a period of shock and unlocked some childhood trauma links I had buried and had never thought about, which now make a lot of sense. Due to this, I had a period unable to regain my normal life routine and led to the experience of panic phobia and avoidance. I've had EMDR, which helped process the trauma incident, but I just couldn't shift the adrenaline rushes in supposedly normal and safe environments, which led me to feeling broken and a sense of hopelessness. I now know that this is my threat response misfiring. I have had a period of exposure therapy motivated by some of your episodes. I work with a sm with a normal routine, and I've even managed to attend weddings and social things with friends, and even get got back to attending football matches all through the change and belief that what I am experiencing is normal. Albeit they are still challenging and uncomfortable and spark that secondary fear. However, via some extreme adrenaline rushes and a day of building the confidence to press submit, I have booked to go with my partner to go abroad for the first time since the trauma. I haven't quite managed to get to the stage of no ruminating or adrenaline rushes in the supposed normal environments, but I have booked it anyway. Here's hoping I can follow this up with a positive exposure experience following of an all-inclusive pool and sunbed and another step towards recovery.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

That's really great. I mean, hell, I'm rooting for the all-inclusive sunbed and food and beaches and I love that though.

SPEAKER_03 28:43

You're grabbing the vision there. I mean, did it anyway, Sender and her. Uh, and I and I love it. And and there's that belief in yourself, and you're not the one saying, Oh, how long does this take? How long does this take? You've acknowledged that you're in process, and that's okay. And the irony is that because you've acknowledged you're in process, it takes the pressure, and you're doing it, you're on the way to desensitization. You've seen it, you've experienced it. You're not just trying to rush to the end and and and mark it off. And by doing that, you're gonna get to desensitization quicker.

SPEAKER_04 29:14

Yeah. Why am I doing why am I choosing to take this trip when I'm I'm not fully desensitized, not fully recovered? Well, because this is gonna be part of it. This this experience will be part of it, and it might be challenging at times, but okay. Which is a hard attitude to maintain. Some days we're just frustrated and tired, and we just want to take our crayons and go home. And that's okay, have those days. But I love I love that one. Like I'm I I also could really relate to the lot of back and forth before I hit that submit button to buy the tickets and you know, but uh, should I, shouldn't I, should I, shouldn't I? Uh uh, I've been there.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

And there's no Craig the Critic going, Well, why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? Why kind of? It's just yeah, I just love that compassionate acknowledgement of where they're at. Yeah, this is where I'm at, and this is what I need to do next.

SPEAKER_04 29:59

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_03 30:00

No, no, like why am I not at the end? Why have I not completed it?

SPEAKER_04 30:02

Yeah, that's the point. How long does it take? I'm having a bad day after some good time. Well, that's part of the bad bad day is part of the process. I I'm gonna, you know, as far as like how long does it take to complete the process of desensitization? I don't know. I think we need the bad days, to be honest with you, because they are reminders, they're refreshers. They're there's a reason why you and I have to do continuing education, right? To maintain at least here, to maintain the qualification. I'm sure over there too. I got to show New York State that I'm taking classes and staying on top of things. Yeah, there's a reason for that. Because if I don't, I'm gonna start to get rusty and I'm gonna forget skills and I'm gonna maybe forget some concepts. So, like, good, we should all continue to learn. And an anxious person needs a challenge sometimes as a reminder that, like, oh, that's right. My job is to be good at being present with my difficult experiences too. If I'm only if I'm having really good days and I go back into autopilot, which we all do, we're not thinking about it. Of course, a default state is not thinking about how you feel. So when suddenly how I feel becomes important again and grabs my attention, I need that reminder to like, oh, that's right, I need to practice now. Because I think it's that's the way it goes. And especially with OCD, we know that when things get tough in somebody's life, somebody whose OCD would be termed in remission technically may surface again because that's just the way it is. But the same with other anxiety disorders as well. So you gotta practice sometimes, which sucks, but think of it that way. All right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Absolutely. Uh bang on I that's bang on Drew. Now they did any sometimes. You come out with good stuff.

SPEAKER_04 31:36

Every once in a while, if you hang in long enough on an episode of disordered, I'll say something smart. You're something smart too, ready?

SPEAKER_03 31:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

Come on, man. My Mac is not cooperating. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 31:49

Hi guys. Uh my name's Mo. You can use my name. Uh, I use data pronouns. I wanted to thank you guys and maybe inspire someone else uh sharing my experience. So last December I was unemployed with such bad health anxiety that I was basically bedridden for a month. I was really dizzy. I I thought I would pass out, I didn't go outside. Some days I couldn't even like sit up for an extended period of time. Like it was really bad, and I had this huge panic attack around New Year's, and then uh through Reddit, I found your podcast and it kind of changed my life. And now I'm like a functional person again. I have a job. I got the job like recently, a few months ago, and my big did it anyway was going to a metal concert with my best friend. We went to see Gojira, and it was so fun. I was terrified, it was so worth it, and I even went to my first uh mosh pit, which was exhilarating. Um, I got kind of beat up and it was a lot of fun. So, this is your sign to never give up on yourself. I was like at my lowest low, and now I'm living life again. And thank you so much, guys.

SPEAKER_04 33:08

Damn. Mo, you are my you are my listener of the week, my favorite listener right now. I couldn't sit up in bed. I was dizzy, I refused to leave my room, and I got beat up in a mosh pit, and I'm so happy for it.

SPEAKER_03 33:24

What would non-anxious you be doing right now? I'd probably be in a mosh pit being thrown around. Okay. I'm gonna go do that then.

SPEAKER_04 33:31

I cannot love this any more than I do. So good.

SPEAKER_03 33:34

Um you ever been in a mosh pit?

SPEAKER_04 33:36

I yeah, once it it's definitely not my scene. I I'm not yeah, I don't I don't find it to me at at all fun to have somebody fly into me at high speed. That's the kind of thing that I don't want to do and want to prevent. But anyway, but that's cool. Like a lot of people really love it, and I love this for Mo. I just love it.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

I liked watching like I I don't really like it either, but I went to a slayer gig once and um I was sat watching the the pit and people going. But what I really enjoyed was the um how the everyone looked after each other, yeah. So there's like there's people all size, shapes and sizes in there, and it looks quite intimidating. And I saw someone fall, and I thought, oh my god, they're gonna get trampled. And no, but like all the the scene or the fan, you know, they make sure everyone's okay, they get them to the front, they get you know to safety and stuff. And I enjoyed that moment of compassion over the very loud music and flames and everything else that was going on.

SPEAKER_04 34:32

Slayer. Love it. Gojira. You know, it's funny because everywhere we say if you go to a concert, tell us who you saw. Most saw Gojira. But how great, right? To go from like, I'm terrified of the sensations that I'm having to look, I'm a functional person. That was really great.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

I think it's brilliant. Well done, though.

SPEAKER_04 34:47

By the way, we didn't save you, we didn't save anybody. You did that. Maybe we provided some breadcrumbs for you to follow, but like you did hard things to do that.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

Yeah, I was just come to the marsh pit, Mark.

SPEAKER_04 34:59

Exactly. We're just sitting here cracking jokes, drinking coffee. Like, we didn't do anything. You're the one that did it. So you guys don't ever forget that. So, anyway, that was really awesome. Thanks for sharing. Yeah, really good.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

So what else? So uh be curious towards your journey towards desensitization. Do not ask how long does it take to recover? Or if you want to ban words in books like me, just ban it altogether. Um, that's the message I from me. What's yours, Drew?

SPEAKER_04 35:25

Um, I think it's patience, which is really an act of self-kindness, which is something foreign to a lot of people. So it is what it is. It's gonna take as long as it takes. And I hate to be super cliche about this, but it's kind of a lifetime process because we there's no such thing as like suddenly we're not anxious anymore, we don't feel bad things anymore. Sometimes you will. I feel like there's a sound effect coming, or maybe I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_03 35:51

No, I I don't. I was maybe get the eagle. No, it's got I'll save that for another time when you say something American.

SPEAKER_04 35:59

I'll try my best next time. Anyway, I think we're good. That was how long is recovery take? How long is desensitization take? You know what we need? A bleep. This is a good use of AI. Whenever we say that word, the R word, it just automatically bleeps us. We've got to find a tool that does that. Like we said a bad word. Anyway, uh, how long does it take? As long as it takes. What are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_03 36:19

So absolutely. Thanks everyone for tuning in. Uh, if you want to send in a did it anyway, you can do it at disordered.fm. While you're there, you can sign up to the mailing list to hear any announcements, such as the upcoming health anxiety book and the disordered app. Uh, if you want to leave us a review, we'd really appreciate it. Whether you know, give us some stars on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you've listened to us, that'd be really cool. If not, we'll catch you every Friday. Yeah, thanks for listening. We'll be back next week.