Forgiving Yourself In Anxiety Recovery (Episode 121)

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hi, Drew and Josh. My name is Jessica. You can use my name. I live in Texas. I've been listening to you guys for a couple months now as I go through a hard time with my mental health. I did have a question about something that I've been struggling with as I'm starting to see some light at the end of the tunnel. And that is when you're someone who deals with extreme anxiety and depression and uh intrusive thoughts that are related to that. How do you forgive yourself for the things that you went through and the impact that you had on the people around you that love you? Thank you guys so much for everything that you do. It's been so instrumental in my journey to recovery. And yeah, I'd love to hear from you. Thanks.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 121 of the podcast. Today we're talking about how to forgive yourself for the things you did when you were an anxious person. Uh I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist practicing in the area of anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York. This week I get to record on like two hours of sleep. So this is the no sleep crew again checking in. And uh yeah, what else do I have for you? Uh this radio voice on this expensive microphone, three books that I've written on this topic, another podcast that I do, social media stuff, psychoeducation, advocacy, all that stuff. And as always, I'm joined by my partner.

SPEAKER_05 1:26

Hi, I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist based in the UK. I specialize in anxiety, anxiety disorders, and a previous sufferer of panic disorder, OCD. We'll always have an OCD brain. Um, GAD, health anxiety, the lot. Um, and yeah, glad to sit down and enjoy one of my favorite hours of the week.

SPEAKER_03 1:50

Uh-huh. I enjoy your OCD brain. Bring it. I'm glad it's here every week. So thanks. It's okay. Thank you. How this is a great question. Jessica, thank you for asking because we weren't sure what we're going to talk about today. And then Jessica saved the day riding in on our white horse with this excellent, excellent, excellent question. When we are in the grips of it and we are struggling and we're in the thick of it and we're stuck in the mud, we all do things that do not reflect who we really are. We avoid, we cancel, we like don't show up for things, we make silly excuses to not socialize and be with our friends and our family, or we make demands on them that we otherwise wouldn't make. And then when we get better, sometimes it's like, ooh, I can't believe I did that. Did you ever have any of that?

SPEAKER_05 2:32

I remember feeling like I was a burden. Um and no matter what anyone would say, I mean, I was lucky to have loved ones around me that would never communicate that, and genuinely at the core, probably never saw me as a burden. They they were very compassionate. But I don't think I ever it was a very internal thing, you know. But maybe but maybe I am burdening them in some way. Looking back, no, didn't burden them. Actually, an upside of an anxiety disorder is that allowed people who perhaps wanted to get closer to me and and want wanted me to show my vulnerability a bit more, allowed them to see that. And actually, if anything, some positives from an anxiety disorder is that I learned that I could be vulnerable around people, you know, in other ways, not just with an anxiety disorder. But there was that inner critic that was a bit like, oh, they'd probably go out now if it wasn't for thee, or they've had to cancel holidays or whatnot, you know. And I think that's can be very universal amongst people with anxiety disorders. Um, but it's a very evocative question from Jessica. How do I forgive myself? And I think it's really, really interesting. Um, and I'm just assuming that you're forgiving yourself because of the things that you've had to avoid and maybe the parts of your personality that you couldn't access when you're anxious. Um, I'm presuming you've not like during anxiety gone and burned down people's houses and joy rode cars and committed bank fraud and tax evasion and all those things. Uh, because that's a different type of thing, which you still can forgive yourself for. Sure. But in general, in general, I think when people say I I struggle to forgive myself, it's like how can I get my head around the impact I've had on others when my life's been so restricted?

SPEAKER_03 4:25

Yeah. I think how do we forgive ourselves for what we see as our sort of past transgressions? It's like a universal topic, it's not even necessarily an anxiety topic, but I think sometimes in this context where people were struggling with with anxiety disorders, for me it was because I was truly doing things that I didn't want to do. Like I didn't want to, you know, avoid things. I didn't want to do that sort of stuff. I but you know, the fear makes you do things. It convinces you that no, no, you really can't go to the family gathering, you really can't go to work, you really can't do this. And it's so against who we truly know ourselves to be that it feels like I can't believe I did that. That was all on me. I totally gave in to this nonsense that I believed. So, you know, it's almost like waking up after like you leave a cult. Somebody described that to me. Like I felt like it was like a cult of my own head in that situation. I did things I didn't want to do. But but that is true. And I would start with the premise that like I always say it anxiety disorders can make people look very self-centered and selfish. But I don't think anybody listening to this podcast is self self-centered or selfish, but an anxiety disorder is, but the disorder isn't you. So start from there. Like in that situation, you were dealing with a mental health issue that is probably the most common one we know in the West, for sure. You know, if we wanted to have a uh convention of people that suffer with panic disorder in the US, we'd have to rent the city of Denver to fit you all in. So like it's such a common, common thing, and this is one of the things that it does. So it's almost like can I see it as almost what I feel like I need to forgive myself if I have to ask for help to the car because I have a cast on my leg for six weeks. You wouldn't think that, you know. Try to start to see it that way a little bit, but but it's still hard to ask, right? How do I get okay with this?

SPEAKER_05 6:16

It's assuming that you're bringing people down as well, like you're the cause of it, but it that lacks of compassion towards the self.

SPEAKER_04 6:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:25

You know, we all have these hiccups in life. No one goes through life where they're 100% optimal and brilliant. We all have hurdles, we all have things that we have to go through in life, whether it's anxiety disorders, you know, grief, divorce, um, illness. Yeah, these will happen. Uh, don't fall into the trap of thinking, well, this anxiety disorder was special in some way and something that it was all on me that I could have avoided. No, not at all. You know, and particularly, you know, this podcast wouldn't exist if there wasn't a scarcity of psychoeducation around anxiety disorders, and that's why we ended up here. And because there's such a scarcity of information, we could often end up going for years, falling into habits and building compulsive loops and getting confused and doing things all the wrong way. That's not your fault either. That's you trying to help yourself. You know, you wouldn't be listening to this podcast if you didn't want to feel better, to get back to a place where you'd rather be, whether it's for yourself or for others. So, you know, make sure to acknowledge that point. Um, just going back to what I said before, though, Drew, about like I was lucky to be around people that were like forgiving and understanding, but there are a lot of people and people listening to this podcast and clients we see in the practice where they are not surrounded by understanding people, and often their disappointment in that person's anxiety is vocalized, and that compounds the misery, which is like adding fuel onto the bonfire that was created by our friend Craig the Critic.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

Yeah, and he's always lurking, right? Do I remember which button it is? It's Craig the Critic. We don't play our sound effects enough.

SPEAKER_05 8:10

You're right, and and this the this is a Craig the Critic kind of episode, really.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Yeah, and it's funny because even when you say I I would have to say I was pretty lucky. I mean, there were honestly some friendships that were permanently damaged when I was in uh avoidance mode. I don't blame those other people at all. I get it. If your friend disappears and just refuses to interact with you, it sort of looks like the friendship is over. So I do understand that. But for the most part, I same thing. I have very supportive people around who were never vocal about me being a burden, they would they would be like, what do you mean, burden? I get that. But it's still your own subjective internal experience that matters the most. So if you felt like a burden, then you do have some self-forgiveness and self-compassion to practice. It doesn't matter. Those people could say all day long, you weren't a burden. We loved you, it was fine, you weren't impactful at all. If you think you were, then that's what you got to work on. That's fine. But it is true that not only do we have listeners who are in the middle of the struggle right now, who are being maybe berated or belittled or not supported very well or criticized openly, but we have people who are in the struggle who were criticized, belittled, and berated and taught lessons before they struggled, that now come into the struggle with them that tell them that the fact that they're struggling at all makes them a horrible, unworthy burden that the world should discard. So those are hard things to carry out the back end. Like you get to that sort of recovered state. Those are gonna stay with you.

SPEAKER_05 9:32

I hear all sorts of shit me as well from people, like yeah, stories like Um, my anxiety is making my family anxious, and only my family can feel better when I'm better. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

No, no pressure. No at all. No, not at all. Yeah, you're just responsible for making everybody feel good. No pressure, no pressure.

SPEAKER_05 9:51

Just do that, please. No, no pressure at all. Yeah, uh, just stuff like that. Um, and parents naturally, humanly, like, oh I've got intrusive thoughts, or I've got agriphobia, and they cancel holidays, and then they see the look in the kids' faces and they feel horrible. It's like, yeah, but also look at developmental psychology. Children just want to spend time with you and feel love. It doesn't matter if it's in an abhorrent four-star resort somewhere with other people's children. It's but but they'll see that and they'll compare and they'll be like, oh no, you know, I'm I'm getting in the way of stuff. No, you're not. You're actually there being with your kids whilst being anxious. I think it's remarkable and it's and it's good. It doesn't won't be like this forever, you know. And if you've been through it as well, whether it's you're a parent or you're a partner, or you know, statistically, you're gonna know someone else who's gonna go through an anxiety disorder. Isn't it better to know what it's like and come through it? Yeah, and then you'd be that better person and you'd never call that person a burden, you'd never you'd have nothing but love and compassion for them. Right. So do try to see the positives of something that often feels like rubbish.

SPEAKER_03 11:05

You know, one of the things that you bring up a good point, like you're right, the kids just want to spend time with you. But I think one of the obstacles to really achieving a sense of self-compassion or kindness or self-forgiveness is trying to come to an absolute, I need to know for sure that I didn't cause any bad feelings for my friends, my family, my children. And you can never really know that. Because the reality is when we get close to people, whether they're friends, there are kids, there are partners, there are whatever, like coworkers, it doesn't matter. If you're gonna come in contact with people every day, y'all are gonna create feelings in each other sometimes. Like that's just the way it works when we're social animals. So I think one of the things that's hardest to come to grips with in the self-forgiveness path is but I maybe you did, maybe your kids were in fact disappointed that day. I remember very clearly an instance where getting on the road to go do a thing, I bailed. And that means I bailed for the whole family. And I I have to had to come to grips that my kids who were small at the time, they were disappointed because they were excited. I did in fact create or help create a feeling of disappointment. It doesn't mean I'm responsible for managing everybody's feelings, but I have to acknowledge that I may have done, I I might disappoint you today. I probably disappoint you every day. Every time we record, I disappoint Josh. Like, you know, I'm being funny, but that is the reality of interpersonal relationships. So what can get in the way of forgiveness is yeah, but I did disappoint them. I know that's the part where we start to have to forgive ourselves because someone disappointed you today, and you will disappoint someone today. Like, that's the way it works. So be careful about trying to find absolute certainty that everybody felt totally fine with you all the time. You're never gonna get it.

SPEAKER_05 12:54

Well, to answer, well, listen to Jessica's question, how?

SPEAKER_03 12:58

How did you forgive yourself for that? Very good, good segue. Uh well, I mean, people always say all the time, like, how did you get to this point where like you're willing to just accept horrible realities? But what was my choice? So there is an element of acceptance, like, as much as I don't want that episode to have happened, and I I truly wish that that did not happen, this thing I'm talking about, but it did. There's nothing I can do, no amount of like repeatedly berating myself or, you know, jumping into the angst pool will change that. So the best I could do is say, well, what can I take from that? You know, I've talked to my kids about it. I've talked to them about all these things. I've apologized. They have said many times there's nothing to apologize for, but I wanted to do it anyway. It made me feel better. They were gracious, they listened, they accepted my apology. So, like, some that's how I did it. I still have a pang of like when I tell that story, I have a bad feeling inside of me, and I probably will for the rest of my life. Okay. I'm human, I feel stuff. That's what that's what happens. I'm not trying to be flippant because I'm I get it. I'm in a different place now, thankfully. And if you're in the middle of it, you're feeling like, but I feel so bad. I know. Like sometimes we do feel bad about the past. What can we do about that? Just feel it.

SPEAKER_05 14:14

We're also always trying our best. Like the the way I forgive myself is that you know, I did just try my best. You know, it's not I I've done comparing myself to people. Um and and the fact of the matter is everyone has the bad bit or bad bits of their life, and that was mine, and this is yours. And if you're listening now and you're really struggling with anxiety and whatnot, this is yours. You know? This is your everyone has one. You know, this is your you your anxiety disorder is the bad bit that you're working with, you know. Your uncle's is is is his alcoholism, you know. Your sister's is her divorce or manic depression, yeah, you know. Um your friends are the job loss and the subsequent identity issues with that. Maybe you've got a friend with a chronic illness or condition, this is theirs. Maybe you've got a really serious operation, you've broken someone's broken a leg. Everyone has a thing, and it's just your thing. It doesn't make you it's only Craig the Critic that will create the illusion that it's something that you could have avoided. When actually the statistics tell you you don't. Anxiety disorders you cannot necessarily avoid, you can overcome them and get better. Yeah. But usually they kind of happen. Uh usually in it's it's like early adulthood, usually, isn't it? Uh it can happen anytime. Earlier, there's a spike as well around perimenopause and stuff like that. But uh in general, it's early adulthood stuff, or when there's always a trigger there, we just suddenly feel out of control and it starts that cognitive ascent attentional syndrome that metacognitive therapists talk about, where it's the switch where the cast is ignited and you go inwards and you're just suddenly hyper-aware and obsessed with how you think and feel. Yeah, um, that usually triggers it's quite similar in be in people, you know, and you didn't choose to do that. And you know, I remember the first time it happened to me. I didn't it wasn't avoidable, it was just gonna happen as a result of stress, in my opinion. Um so yeah, like it's like saying, How can you forgive yourself for something that's arguably very much out of your control? No. Um yeah, I I I just even think the questions like I would say to you, Jessica, don't even ask the question. Yeah, what's there to forgive? Unless you did go and rob a bank or something, then yeah, you you've traumatized people there.

SPEAKER_03 16:48

I think there's there's two things there, and like the mechanism that makes us vulnerable, because in the end, like we've talked about this, what creates the disorder? Like I turn inward and I become into fake the state itself is the problem. Like why I got triggered doesn't matter anymore. It's just a fact of how I feel. And I think if if somebody asks the question, how do I forgive myself? It's because they're they feel bad. Like they're experiencing some what we would call negative feelings, I guess, or difficult feelings inside themselves about memories or things they did in the past, they have regrets, whatever it is. And so now I become fixated on my internal feeling. It might not be panic this time, it might not be an intrusive thought this time, it might not be a health concern, but I have an inside feeling that I I just feel is intolerable. And the thing that helped you develop an anxiety disorder, which was out of your control, you were just had a propensity to do, like me and Josh, is could turn against you. Like it's very meta. Like, oh, be careful about notice when you're super fixated on having a bad feeling and wanting to know what do I do about that? And that takes the form sometimes, how do I forgive myself? How do I heal? How do I well sometimes we just have to feel the bad feeling? So in the end, forgiving yourself is about recognizing I did some stuff that I wish I didn't do. And now I have to feel I will feel bad about that, but I can't declare the bad feeling an emergency or try desperately to control it or fix it through some sort of mechanism. Yeah. Yeah. Just if you're actively berating yourself, well, yes, I have to start to make a change. I have to stop doing that. But I still am going to have some residual feelings, probably for the rest of my life about some of those things. And the out of control thing is really important too. Like it what just because it's not, I'm sorry, I'm ranting here a little bit, but you run away. You know what? Be just because an anxiety disorder is counterintuitive and illogical, which we can see before we're in it and after in it, but we can't see while we're in it. Just because it's illogical doesn't mean you made a mistake by getting caught in the disorder. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_05 18:45

And there's the sentence of the price of admission.

SPEAKER_03 18:48

Yeah. Like so I think if people would understand, like, you know, we have a disease, you know, interpretation of addiction now, and a lot of people will say, well, it's not it's not that person's fault that he became an addict. We we we see it a different way now. It's not a choice, it's a disease or it's a propensity. Okay, same thing here. Just because those three years of your life or three months or or however long of your life made no logical sense doesn't mean you're responsible for making those errors that that had nothing to do with it at all.

SPEAKER_05 19:15

So just better. Yeah, it's just one of the yeah, and I love what you said as well. Sometimes you just feel things. I've sat in the in the practice over the years, and they're like, I just want to reflect, yeah, you know, like how awful it made me feel when I cancelled the holiday or whatnot, all the things that we couldn't do because of the anxiety disorder. And I say, okay, what feeling comes up? Shame, guilt, sadness. I'm like, okay, well, I'll let that be there too.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

Yeah. What are you gonna do about it?

SPEAKER_05 19:47

Like we don't fix it, sure, you know, shed some tears, feel it. That's what it's there for. Then I often offer an irreverent other perspective and be like, and Matt, yeah, but you what if you did go on holiday and then died? Now you're here. There we go. Good point, right? Who knows what would have happened? That's 100% correct. Have you considered that?

SPEAKER_03 20:11

See, I thought I had that fixed. Clearly, I didn't. Because there's some device, and I know what it is. It's this iPad. I'd fix it on there too. Sorry, guys, I thought I was all happy that there's gonna be no notification.

SPEAKER_05 20:21

He actually said before the episode I fixed it in a way.

SPEAKER_03 20:24

I forgot to update the app on my iPad. Um, anyway, how do I forgive myself for blowing this notification problem? By playing a Did It Anyway. We can play a Did It Anyway. That sounds like a really good idea because it's a happy thing. So here we go.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name is Ashley, and I just want to say that you guys have been instrumental in my recovery from panic attacks, panic disorder, agoraphobia, deralization. I had all of it. Um I had a really severe panic attack almost four years ago that led to me having panic disorder, agoraphobia, DPDR. And it happened in New York, and I honestly thought I would never be able to go back to New York. It happened out on the sidewalk, and I was just convinced I could never walk down a city street ever again. And I just want to say that last week I went to New York for a few days to see friends. I don't live there anymore, but I went to see friends and I walked all over the place and I had no problem. I didn't even think about it. I just left the house and walked around all over the place and got about 15,000 steps a day, which honestly I never thought I'd be able to do again, um, especially in a city. So just wanted to thank you and just let you know. That you guys were a huge part of my recovery, and I recommend you to everyone I know who has anxiety and panic attacks. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

Never thought she'd be on a sidewalk ever again. And look at that. That's amazing. I love that.

SPEAKER_05 22:21

Yeah. Um, did uh did this did the New York streets make you feel brand new? Did the big lights inspire you when you're in New York? New York. Yeah, yeah. So I didn't do that, dude. Uh anyway, any justice. It's so good. Well done. You should be really proud of yourself. Yeah. So much sensory overload as well. And you were like, no, I've got this, and you made it your own. Yeah. You own the streets again.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Ah, I love that. Ashley owns the streets. That's that's true. Ashley owns the streets. I I think it's it's so important that if you're listening and you feel like I'm never gonna be able to do that. I'm I would lay dollars to donuts that Ashley thought that too. She just said it. She actually said it in the recording. I thought I would never be able to walk on a busy sidewalk ever again. And she's nailed it. And there she is. So very well done, Ashley. Thank you for sharing. I appreciate it. Very inspiring. Um forgiving yourself. I think one of the things that came up a lot of actually listening to Ashley is, and I mentioned it because in the way that I've had to talk to some folks, you know, I I felt like I had to come clean with some of my friends and whatnot, like, hey, this is why I sort of disappeared on you. I'm not proud of it. It's a little bit embarrassing to tell you, but like I I think I I I feel like I owe you an explanation. Now, that was my interpretation. You might not feel that at all. And you may have people who say, you don't owe anybody anything, like, yeah, set those boundaries. Okay. Well, whatever you think is right for you. But sometimes you get a real gripe with those people. I really do. I have a huge chip on my shoulder for anybody that gives universal, always applicable boundaries are always applicable. I remember when I wrote my newsletter back in 2022, I shared some personal stuff in that. I remember everybody rushing into the I I shared some regrets that I have over what happened. Here you go. How do you forgive yourself? I had a friend of mine that I really cared a lot about. She underwent a giant medical procedure. She had this crazy disease that very few people in the world have. She had this massive transplant, and unfortunately, she's not here anymore. And I did not go see her when she was in the hospital near the end of her life. I I couldn't bring myself to do. That will haunt me until the day they put me in a box. And when I shared about that, see, it makes me a little emotional just talking about it. I still feel horrible about that. Beth, I'm sorry. If you're listening somewhere, I'm really sorry. And I talked about that. And I everybody rushed into my comment section with the kindest, biggest hearts, meaning the best that they could. And and I got, give yourself grace. Regret is pointless. And my response to that was no, no, no, no. This regret that I carry actually helps me live a better life now, but it's a compassionate regret. I'm not angry with myself. I'm not like berating myself. Your path to forgiveness is going to look like the path that you carve out. So to go back to Josh pointing out this big chip that I have on my shoulder, there is no universal advice, especially if you're scrolling on Instagram and all you keep hearing about is boundaries and boundaries and boundaries. You don't owe anybody anything. Stand in your power. You might feel the need to apologize for the people to the people close in your life. They might not need it, but if you need to do that, go ahead. That might be part of the process too. So I just wanted to throw that out there because I think for me that was a part of it. Like I had to come clean to people. They didn't need me to. They were awesome. I have awesome people in my life. But I felt like I needed to, and that helped.

SPEAKER_05 25:44

I like that. That's despite the uh absolute litany of immaturity that you hear on this, that's uh a perfect example of what it looks like there. And yeah, it shows that you're human. And I love that bit. Yeah, I'm not supposed to. People, and it's really nice, well-intentioned people, very compassionate people, like, no, it's okay, you don't need to feel bad, you need to feel bad. No, no. What we're saying is, and at the very core of this whole bloody podcast, is that it's okay to feel the bad thing.

SPEAKER_03 26:15

Yeah, sometimes we can't help it.

SPEAKER_05 26:17

Yeah, yeah, that that that's the human experience. Uh, in Drew's example, and in everything, and as therapists, sometimes you the the problem is I just don't want to feel it. And I do everything to get rid of it, and then it's conflated with stuff. You've heard the ranting about healing and wellness spheres and optimization, all designed to promise you never to feel something you don't like. When actually the healing, the growth, the maturity is actually in the willingness to just do that, hence willful tolerance. Yeah, you don't have to like it, just I can willfully tolerate this for a bit. And I do even apply that to other feelings too.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

I agree. Guilt, regret, any of those things, you know, it's gonna happen. Feeling bad about the past. You know, that those we we've had Russ Harris on, he talks about the act triflex. I think it applies here. You know, I teach that even when people are dealing with bad things, difficult things from their past, like, well, what's happening right now? Well, right now I'm I'm having memories about this thing, and okay, well, what emotions can I identify right now? I'm angry at myself, I'm feeling guilt, I have regret over this, and now I'm upset over it. Well, what's going on in your body? Well, my heart's starting to pound, or I'm I get that lump in my throat when this happens. I hate this. Okay, well, that is in fact what's happening right now. What else is going on? Oh, I really feel like I want to get away from this.

SPEAKER_05 27:34

It is a compassionate conundrum. Yeah. Would you rather not be the person who doesn't have feelings of being bad when you do something that's perhaps against your ideal values? Or would you rather be the person who doesn't feel anything in the sense that it doesn't even bother them that they can do that? And if you were to give that question to anyone, particularly who does feel guilty, they'd always go with the side that makes them feel guilty because it's actually an echo and a projection of your own values and principles. And yes, we can never be a hundred percent, you know, get a hundred percent completion on our own values and principles because they're tangible, they mould, they change, they morph over time. Sometimes we hit the mark, sometimes we don't. But that guilt is a feeling and a reminder of your own values and principles, which is the signifier signifier of who you are. So, yeah, if you've you know, uh as as as the question sender inner said, it was how do I forgive myself? Or just acknowledge it that actually it's an offshoot and an unavoidable consequence of being a progressive, wonderful person. And I'm gonna leave it at that.

SPEAKER_03 28:54

That's really good. So you have two sentences today, two mic drop moments that were worth the break. You got two for one on disordered today. Because that was really, really good. That was really, really good. Nothing like I'll give you an at a boy, I guess. That's what you win. Do I do I get another audio did it anyway? You can get another audio did it anyway. We can have it right now, it sounds like a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Hi Josh and Drew. My name is Anna. I live in Congoleton in Cheshire in the UK. I'm happy for you to use my name. I wanted to share my seven-day long I Did It Anyway. Um, it was a pre-booked holiday. At the time of booking, I didn't suffer with anxiety. Um, however, at the time of the holiday, my anxiety was peaking to the point I was afraid to go to use my bathroom. Uh, I was just sat on the sofa terrified of any movement whatsoever. We wasn't going to go on the holiday, however, the day before I decided what the heck, let's go. Uh flight from hell of five and a half hours of constantly being screamed at and kicked by the kid that sat behind. Seven days of non-stop panic attacks, two to three per day. Uh, outside of those, I was just sat there terrified. And it generally was the holiday from hell, but you know what? I did it anyway. So I'm very proud of myself for doing that. Um, thank you for listening to me and keep doing what you're doing, it is so helpful, and you're doing amazing. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_05 30:36

Nothing beats a jet to holiday. So that's that's the new current theme, isn't it? Uh well done. And and you've proved to yourself there as well. Okay, well, it's seven days of hell, yeah, but I'm still here and I'm fine, you know. Uh sorry about the kid kicking your chair. There are things that we shouldn't forgive.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Yeah, that's one of them. That kid could that you need to hold a grudge against that kid the rest of your life. That's my clinical opinion.

SPEAKER_05 31:01

Yeah, honestly. When the kid grows up, graduation, weddings, just be there, be the constant reminder.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Uh Anna. In the back of the poor kid's graduation as he's the valedictorian of his high school class. Woo! She's just shaking her fist. No. Such a good job, Anna. Like been wheeled to the hospital for an operation.

SPEAKER_05 31:25

Well, now it's my time to kick your chair.

SPEAKER_03 31:29

That is horrible.

SPEAKER_05 31:30

Do you remember me?

SPEAKER_03 31:31

Remember me? Remember me. Oh, you could send a henchman to do it. Anna says hello. Boom. Punching the kid in the back. Wow, the order dark. Welcome to Disordered After Dark. This is what it looks like. But you know, Anna, like the really great job. The mechanics of I did it, I did the task. In this situation, it's so important to make sure what did that teach me? Because the propensity could be like, I gotta keep falling back to telling everybody how it was the vacation or the holiday from hell. It was subjectively, that was a difficult experience, no doubt. But at the same time, what did I learn from that? Always the point of did it anyway is what can I learn about myself and my the nature of my anxiety from that experience. So important. Good. Excellent, love it. Very inspiring, awesome.

SPEAKER_05 32:16

Very good, very good. I've got a written one.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_05 32:21

Okay. Okay. He's trying. Okay, this is from I don't think they gave me permission to use their name. Um, I like to share, and I did it anyway. A few months ago, my panic disorder came back with a vengeance and brought along some friends. Agrophobia and health anxiety. I went from hospital to hospital to hospital, numerous doctor visits and tests. I ended up bedbound, scared to eat and shower and do normal human things. I was having rolling panic attacks and didn't see an end. Yeah, I don't miss those days. Um well, I read 7% slower by the wonderful Drew Linsolata, listened to this podcast, and signed myself up for ERP therapy. Fast forward to last Thursday when Atlanta's baseball team put on a Stranger Things themed game. That sounds amazing. My crew and I worked tirelessly tirelessly on this show for years. I bought tickets in the thick of my panic disorder, knowing I probably wouldn't go. But I did. The lights and such gave me heavy derealization. I was so worried I would have a seizure or a stroke, but I still got my Stranger Things jersey and engaged with my film family. I did this, but you guys helped me build that path. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 33:43

Oh, that's awesome. How cool is that? Stranger Things baseball game. All baseball games are Stranger Things in my eyes, but that's okay. That's really great. Really great. I love that I bought a ticket knowing I wouldn't go, but he did. It's really cool.

SPEAKER_05 33:57

But there's a part of you that obviously knew you were. Yeah, I want to go.

SPEAKER_03 34:00

That's a reflection of the fact that I really want to be there, so I'm gonna buy this ticket and roll the dice.

SPEAKER_05 34:04

Uh uh there's a new last series of Stranger Things is out soon, isn't it? I can't wait for that. So they say, yeah, that was huge, right?

SPEAKER_03 34:11

I almost forgot about it until now.

SPEAKER_05 34:13

So yeah. Uh they're all still attempting to dress them up as children, even though they're like they're all like 48 years old at the time.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

That was Henry Winkler at the end of Happy Days. He was like, I was like 41 playing like a teenager. It had to end, but they were just paying me too much. So it was really great.

SPEAKER_05 34:32

Oh god.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Oh, that's by the way, we have a correction. When I said roll the dice, remember we had the pentamillion gone? It's a pentamillionhedron, I think, because it's 3D. Pentamillion gone would be a 2D shape. Just throwing it out there. That came up like two days ago.

SPEAKER_05 34:49

You can roll a 2D shape.

SPEAKER_03 34:50

Sure, I guess you could. Like a tire rolling down the yeah, like Wheel of Fortune. Yeah, the Pentamillia, Pentamillionhedron.

SPEAKER_05 34:58

Pen Pentamillionhedron. Okay, that's cool.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

I felt the need to bring that up. Ridiculous, but okay.

SPEAKER_05 35:05

Yeah, it's gone. Yeah, because yeah, gone is 2D. Gone is 2D, I think. Yeah. Rather than apologize and admit we made a mistake, we'll just say, no, you had to just picture it in 2D, rolling on a 2D platform. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Very good. Thanks guys for hanging out. Where are we? 35 minutes? All good.

SPEAKER_05 35:20

So all good. Any questions you can send in to disordered.fm. Uh sign up to the newsletter and be the first uh people to find out about our upcoming app and latest health anxiety book. It's almost there. It's it's about 80% of the way through both. Um, and you can send in emails and questions and stuff. We try to get uh through it as best we can. Um and just thanks for tuning in. We're here every Friday. Yeah, we'll be back next week.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Go feel your feelings, they won't hurt you. We're out of the way.