Existential Anxiety! (Episode 99)

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Today we're talking about existential anxiety. Interesting questions and things I reflect on now and then, but I have done it in the midst of an anxiety disorder and in the midst of an OCD uh cycle. That's when it's not fun. What does OCD and anxiety disorder want you to do? Solve, fix, get 100% certainty. We have an entire department of people.

SPEAKER_05 0:22

What's the meaning of life? Philosophers, theologians who've been at this thousands of years since we developed language. What is consciousness? Who are we? Who am I as a person? And we do not know the answers. We're never gonna know the answers. What is time? But no, Drew's anxious mind was gonna figure it out by reading another book.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Nothing wrong with those thoughts. If you're thinking and going down that rabbit hole whilst triggered, you will end up nowhere.

SPEAKER_05 0:56

We're talking about existential anxiety, which is always fun. And it's episode 99, which means we got 99 problems, but existential dread isn't one of them. Just saying. Yay, Josh, all excited. I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist practicing under supervision in the state of New York, specializing in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders. Also a three-time author on this topic, uh, social media dude, podcast co-host, advocate, former sufferer, but doing better now, and always happy to be back on the mic every Friday with my buddy from the UK.

SPEAKER_03 1:27

And that would be I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, uh, previous sufferer of lots of existential thoughts and DPDR and all that stuff. I'm an anxiety therapist author and Instagram prancer arounder and and also TikTok now. One of my TikTok videos went a bit mad, which is kind of cool. Um I write for psychology today as well. That's a new thing. I've been enjoying that. Um, but most importantly, I'm really happy to be a co-host of this wonderful podcast.

SPEAKER_05 2:04

Josh is also an expert in the dynamics of custard. If you dive into a full of custard, he knows all about that.

SPEAKER_03 2:11

It's a real thing. Like remember when I told my friends, I was like, you know, I've three psychologists have confirmed that um I'm autistic, and they all looked at me like, oh, we we never saw that coming. He's talking about custard again. It's like it's my child's christening. Shut up.

SPEAKER_05 2:35

Enough about the pool of custard already.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

All right, existential dread. Did you have it? I had it. Oh, I get it now and then, just normal existential dread, you know. Uh when you talk about Sorin Kierkegaard and his quote about, you know, anxiety, anxiety is the dizziness of freedom. It's like, ooh, you know, and you look and look at the stars sometimes, and you're like, wow, you know, what is this? This is what is consciousness, there, things like that. Interesting questions and things I reflect on now and then. But I have done it in the midst of an anxiety disorder and in the midst of an OCD uh cycle. That's when it's not fun. No, no.

SPEAKER_05 3:17

And for when I had it, it was and I and I love this stuff now. I can talk about this sort of stuff all day long and like just be thrilled. But back in the day when I was really struggling, existential thoughts, the difference was I would urgently try to find a solution to these dilemmas. And like, we have an entire department of people called philosophers, theologians who've been at this, literally, it's their full-time jobs for thousands of years since we developed language, and we do not know the answers. We're never gonna know the answers. But no, Drew's anxious mind was gonna figure it out by reading another book about like life after death, really, or experiencing DPDR in Walmart.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

Yeah, hardly.

SPEAKER_05 3:56

No, my anxious brain was sure that if I just thought hard enough about this and treated my fear as urgent and an emergency, I will figure this out. I will find certainty about existence. And guess what? I didn't still still not sure.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

So, yeah, I yeah, I I got it. And it's usually when you when you're unaware or haven't accepted you have a fixator brain or an OCD brain, sometimes you know you'll be getting on with life, and then the a scary thing um will will pop in, a scary thought, and what does OCD and anxiety disorder want you to do? Solve, fix, get 100% certainty, whatever. If you try and apply that to questions like what's the meaning of life, what is consciousness? Who are we? What is this? Who am I as a person? Why am I a flesh automaton walking around on the planet? What are feelings? What is time? Why does time is time warped? Why do things look weird through different lenses and moods? Why does if you're thinking and going down that rabbit hole whilst triggered, you will end up nowhere. You'll be doing donuts on a on your own metaphorical lawn, going nowhere and just creating a bit of a mess. Um, those nothing wrong with those thoughts. Yeah but if you are doing it as if you notice that it's a trigger and your anxiety is like find certainty now, or what does this mean? Uh in an urgent way, not a oh, what does life mean? That's cool. I'll reflect on that while I walk. No, it's oh my god, what does life mean? Then yeah, this that's when you can get caught in the obsessive compulsive loop often coincides with derealization and depersonalization in my experience. I don't know about you, Drew. Do you hear it?

SPEAKER_05 5:40

Um, it's interesting because when I I I do hear it for sure, because it's that like is anything real that comes with, you know, sort of derealization, it's why we call it that. So it does trigger that for sure. Uh, my personal experience, interestingly, my DPDR was not directly connected to the existential fixation that I had. I don't know why. It is who knows? There's no logic to it. You know, I felt like I was when I would get really depersonalized, I would feel like I was disintegrating, but it didn't somehow glue itself to the whole like do I even exist? What is this? Don't know why. But for most people, yeah. I and I think I'm an You were lucky. I would love you know what? Sherman sketch from Monte Pai luxury, like you know, you had it good. So you had it good. You had it good. You had a I had a luxurious anxiety disorder. I I was an anomaly, I'm sure, but yes, it does connect for most people. That that feeling of unreality, like then everything looks weird, like the sky looks too big. This I can't look up because space is huge and it's freaking me out, and I'm feeling DPDR right now, and I can't handle it. So I think most people have that connection.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Oh, there we go. You and your Worldcraft notifications. I cannot get away from them. Episode 100, the celebration of disorder, is just gonna be a playback of all your notifications.

SPEAKER_05 6:57

That just tells me that I am gonna be late for a meeting. That's all right.

SPEAKER_03 7:01

Um, you know, there's nothing more important to do right than do this podcast right now. I know bottom three CBT podcast that we are. Yeah, before we started recording, Drew and I were chatting about the current um social media trend of you know, I'm in the top 100 uh CBT influencers, and uh Drew and I we didn't make the list uh uh unfortunately, um, which we're devastated about. So we're gonna create our own the uh the the the bottom three DVT influences uh and we're gonna fight for who's the worst.

SPEAKER_05 7:37

Yeah, we defeated a 404 page, but we're beaten by a cat on a microphone.

SPEAKER_03 7:42

Well, we absolutely absolutely that was enough to send me into an existential dread. Yeah, um, yeah. I mean, what's one of the main drivers of existential dread? I mean, if you really struggle with this, you could it could be a theme. There is a very common sub-theme of OCD called existential OCD, where we wake up all day every day research, gathering, seeking reassurance, testing, um, reflecting, and predominantly ruminating. Yeah. Um, if this is you, then no, nothing wrong with the thoughts, it's the behaviors and the attention and the resistance to feelings is what's keeping the threat response on.

SPEAKER_05 8:21

Yeah. There seems to be having common themes that go underneath that, which is is this a simulation? How do I know what's real? How do I know I'm real? Why am I here? Is there life after death? I would put that in with existentialing because it has to do with that whole like, am I annihilated at the moment of death?

SPEAKER_03 8:37

And you didn't have that with DPDR. No, your brain was like, oh, oh, I'm I'm feeling detached. Is this a simulation? Am I in the matrix? Am I real? My hands aren't mine. Oh, but we'll have the scary thoughts later.

SPEAKER_05 8:50

It it was well, in a way, I got a bonus. It was two for one. So, like, they could have just combined, like when your birthday is on Christmas and you get gypped. No, I had two separate individual drugs. So they weren't going to combine. That would have been too easy. What but those seemed like the common themes. Is this a simulation? And for me, I would respond to them often by I would I was reading a lot about the nature of existence, and I was looking for proof that I will continue after death. I was frantically looking for proof, and you can't, there's no such thing. And it would kill me. Like I would be that that search for that answer, and that was that was my particular answer. I'm sure you guys will have different answers depending on what your presentation is. It would make me so much worse because I would be digging so hard to find an answer to to eliminate my distress. And since I couldn't find one, it would just keep ratcheting up until I felt like I was gonna explode. It was it was awful.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

Yeah, that uh that's yeah, I can relate to that. I think mine was like I never I never saw and compulsively searched for evidence that I would live on after death. Um, but there was that kind of the urge to just understand how things work, which is an advantage. So if you're someone who likes to understand how things work, then that's great. When it becomes obsessional and the point of your fixation, you're going into obsessive compulsive territory and you're just winding yourself up and keeping yourself in a sensitized state that you're trying to eagerly fight your way out of by more doing, which is a reference to the last episode we did. You know, actually, I'm gonna think about this when I'm not in a sensitized state. And actually what you'll find is that you'll see it through a different lens. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 10:34

Yeah, it was a the coming to the conclusion, which is I I think part of this existential theme for almost everybody, is like I am I'm going to have to make peace with the idea that I'm feeling a tremendous amount of distress over an unanswerable question, but there's nothing I can do about that. And as it turns out, even distress over unanswerable questions or inevitable things like death does fade. Like you can, you know, you can't be terrified of death 24-7 unless you try so hard not to be terrified of death 24-7. And then you keep it in the forefront all the time. So that was the lesson in the end that a lot of people wind up learning. I had to learn that lesson. Like, if I leave this alone, it will in fact fade. And yeah, people will ask me sometimes, like, well, how did what exposures did you do for your existential anxiety? Well, none really, as it turned out, as the rest of my anxiety started to abate because I was working on the general problem, my view of those questions as emergencies or the unanswerability of the question stopped feeling like an emergency. So for me, I didn't do any any existential anxiety exposure. I was in one every day, so I didn't have to. It was just I learned to let it go a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

Yeah, there's either do a con exposure or stop doing your compulsions. Right. You know, how do you do an exposure for health anxiety? Well, you can't expose yourself to health anxiety, you can um do your you know, stop doing compulsions, unless you're an avoidant health anxiety person, then the exposure is going to the doctor and and doing things like that. But yeah, in general, it's like I love that it's when I leave this alone, it will it will just fade. And actually, it was a product of my highly anxious sensitized state, which I can so relate to. You know, you know, I all these you know strange what ifs that bombard my mind. But actually, the chicken came before the egg, like I was already anxious, and now my brain's just operating in that fifth gear, trying to find threats in the bazaar. But when my state comes down, I've noticed I don't have the thoughts, nor really care. And it's because of the state that we're in.

SPEAKER_05 12:43

Yeah, or nor really care is really good. Because you're right, I don't really have those thoughts anymore, anyway, unless I want to. Or something comes up and it's the topic comes up. I'm interested in philosophy and stuff like that, so I read about it. But you know, what's interesting is on the other side of that, it becomes interesting. The unanswerability of the questions to me is interesting and in some ways inspiring. Like we got to a place where we can actually contemplate these things, which is amazing. There's just no the contemplation itself becomes a fun thing. I don't know if that makes any sense, but the fact that they're unanswerable isn't triggering anymore. It's actually fascinating to me.

SPEAKER_03 13:22

And bear in mind, like there's a such, you know, the phrase of existential angst exists for a reason. Yeah, it's a very human experience, right? It's very normal to have those thoughts. You're not weird, don't compare yourself to people around you, but like we all have those thoughts. Like, I I mean, let's think of some examples. Like, I what's the Sartre one where like he writes about like absurdism and things, and it's just like just the absurd of like sitting around a table on a chair to bend our bodies at 90 degrees to sit and lean and lean on a table and ingest food with metal um cutlery in a certain manner. It's just it is just sometimes if you're in that weird detached associated state and you walk in and see that, you're like, God, that really is absurd, isn't it? But it doesn't mean you have to work it out, just be like, oh, what an existential thought that is. Like treat it with curiosity, not urgency.

SPEAKER_05 14:26

Oh, that's really good. Curiosity is better than urgency. You're right, because curiosity can be wind up being rewarding. Now, if you're struggling at the moment, you'll be like, this is not rewarding in any way. And I get that, but curiosity is a better path if you can if you can start to exercise that path a little bit more. I I think it's there's there's an element of hyper-awareness in this, because like that example that you just said, like, yeah, I'm sitting on a chair right now as we talk, right? You're sitting on a chair. I'm blissfully unaware of the position of my body sitting in this chair, or how this chair got here, or how this room got here, but all of a sudden, all the things we are normally completely unaware of become right up front. And it's like a chair. We invented chairs. This chair exists, like this was a tree at one point, this table. I like uh you don't normally think about that, but a sensitized mind will pick out all the details and it comes right up front where it doesn't necessarily belong. Because we don't need to think about that.

SPEAKER_03 15:21

So true as well. Yeah, you're right. The sense in a sensitive state, you are hyper-aware. Now, what the threat response, our friend, says, is um, he will just be hyper-aware of anything that comes into focus.

SPEAKER_05 15:33

Yeah, that's exactly. And if you're not, you're failing. It's Craig the critic. Like, yeah, you gotta be paying close attention, man, because everything is dangerous, but it doesn't, we can't, you can't exist that way. We we are live blissfully unaware most of the time, and then all of a sudden, things that should not be at the forefront are right up in your face all the time. Like, yeah, how did we come up with the color blue?

SPEAKER_03 15:55

I I would sometimes have well no, what what is color?

SPEAKER_05 16:00

What is color, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

Yeah, and and another one I added was how do I know the color green is the same color green that Drew is saying?

SPEAKER_05 16:07

You don't, and the answer is we don't, right? How did we? I'm like, okay, but we must agree on it because we all know what green is, or at least we seem to. But then if you start reading philosophy and like epistemology is part of philosophy, how do you know what you can know? And the answer is you don't know that you can know anything.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

And it just here's one for you. You could you can imagine with thoughts what something tastes like, like a lemon. Yeah, imagine putting a lemon in your mouth and imagine what that what that feels like. That weirds me out.

SPEAKER_05 16:36

I actually had it right now when you see it.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. When you start going, you can get an old skinner and conditioning on yourself. Oh, oh my god, I know what that feels like. I know what it feels like to, I know what taste feels like by imagining. Yeah, that's a that's a fun thought. Yeah, but if you're in the middle of OCD, it's like, why?

SPEAKER_05 16:53

Why does this how could this be? Or another theme that I hear a lot. This is an interesting one because I think this is part of the existential theme is the gravity theme. Now, uh probably five or six years ago, I ran across somebody in my community who was gripped by the fear that gravity would stop working. And it was the only person I've ever heard, and in the last five or six years, dozens of people, dozens of people. Like their fixation is gravity, but that's an existential thing. Like suddenly I'm acutely aware of the existence of gravity. Normally I'm not, I just it makes me aware because I weigh I weigh X amount of pounds or things are heavy, but now I am actually noticing gravity working all the time.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

It would be hilarious if gravity would stop working.

SPEAKER_05 17:36

We all just we all just float into the when you think about that, like, oh, that's that's that hyper-awareness thing. Like, normally we're not that's probably why Isaac Newton wound up literally like locked in an attic doing alchemy stuff because he was just watching the universe work all the damn time. Like we weren't meant to do that, so you know I can see it becomes very disturbing. That's just the thing that's I I'm I'm aware of this thing that I don't need to be aware of right now, and like it's disturbing me because you're not gonna get the answer either.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

You feel it gives you the illusion, like all anxiety disorders and all compulsions, it provides the illusion that you are doing something. Yeah, when you Google, check, scan, seek reassuranceurance, research, work on yourself some more, ruminate, problem solve in air quotes, and all that. It's the illusion that you're doing something. Reassurance seeking. Here's another podcast, here's another book I've not read, here's something else. It's the illusion of doing something that you're trying to use to sate the anxiety, but you go in nowhere, you're just running on a treadmill.

SPEAKER_05 18:42

No, no, that that's and that's a hard, that's a tough pill to swallow. Like I'm actually not, I'm not accomplishing anything. And it's weird because then we get to those, you know, vacillating meta-beliefs, like this is this is doing something, this is worth something, but then oh, I wish I could stop doing this because it's actually kind of killing me a little bit. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you feel like it's very important to focus on this, but then two hours later, you wish you could find a way to not focus on this. That's a good hint. And like, oh, I'm engaged in mental stuff that actually doesn't have a point right now.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

So also as well, and this is something that every anxiety sufferer will get, and it's something I've said to client stuff in the past like you are not special. Uh Drew and I are not special, and sometimes anxiety can convince you, like, no, no, you're you've you've seen something that no one else has seen. Now, don't get me wrong, as a human, you're special and you're unique and you're capable and you've got strengths and weaknesses like everyone else. But in the moment when you are triggered, you are not special. Yeah, it is not suddenly the universe's intuition giving you a secret message to solve and save yourself, humanity, or whatever. It's an anxious response and it's looking for threat. Yeah, oh, but I feel special. We hear a lot of people DPDR like, oh, it feels odd, I feel special, and these intrusive thoughts are then my intuition, and I need to solve this, and there's a problem and there's a threat. You're not special, and that's a good thing. You know, like it's okay. You know, if if you're dissociating and having existential thoughts, you know, whilst uh at the shopping mall, it feels weird, but weird doesn't mean you know, the exception or this is that this is happening to you now, you must solve this. It's okay. Just be like, okay, well, I'm dissociating, I'm noticing those existential thoughts. I've noticed I'm in a sensitized state. I know if I start engaging with this, it's not going to be sated. It's like uncle argument. I'm not gonna bother with it. Yeah. And I know I'll probably feel different about this thought and feeling in an hour.

SPEAKER_05 20:45

It's often why we people like us will say, like, we don't, people like us, not just you and me, but anybody who specializes in this stuff, we don't focus on the content, which is unusual if you're talking to colleagues and they don't necessarily they're not in this specialty. And it's like, no, no, no, don't stop trying to show your client why their OCD, why their obsession is false. It's not gonna work because it's just not gonna work. We don't care about the the actual content.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

They already know it's false, they just want to feel 100%.

SPEAKER_05 21:14

That's exactly right. Yeah. So some part of you knows we call it insight. And in the end, I like to think of it as cooking. Like Josh and I can both, we can have the same recipe in front of us, and we could both follow the same steps and make the same thing, but they will taste different for like a zillion different reasons. When you put those two dishes next to each other and try them, that's the uniqueness that comes out. But we were both still cooking, like we were both still using the principles of cooking. So, like your mind is just cooking like mine isn't, Josh's isn't everybody else's right now. Your flavor is unique, that's true, but we really care about the cooking, not the actual flavor. So it's okay. You're just cooking.

SPEAKER_03 21:53

I think mine would taste a bit like the floor I dropped it on before.

SPEAKER_05 21:58

Judge has no kitchen's cooking. I can't I don't claim that I do either, but it was just I came up with that one on the fly. So give me a break.

SPEAKER_03 22:04

Once did that for some contamination OCD client. I dropped my sandwich on the floor, picked it up, and ate it.

SPEAKER_05 22:09

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

What are you doing? That's dangerous. I was like, no, it's not. If anything, it's a Tesco meal deal sandwich which probably made it taste a bit better. I just improved it.

SPEAKER_05 22:22

I think that special thing is so important because it I think in almost every presentation of an anxiety disorder, the the big resistance or one of the obstacles people have to overcome is okay, I hear what you're saying, but I have, if it starts with but, but for me, but for me are probably three most common words that that I hear in the for the past 10 years that I've done this stuff, and definitely in my practice. But for me, it's the thoughts. But for me more common than but what about? Ooh, neck and neck, right? What about, but what about what about yeah, they're the same. And in the end, you what Josh did is so true. You don't want to be special. It's a good thing to know. We are literally relying on the fact that these are not special processes. The specific content might be unique to you because everybody puts their own twist on it, but like the process is damn near universal. And really, we're always dealing with processes that exist in like every human brain. That's the difference between like neuroses and anxiety disorder and what people fear so much, like the loss of touch with reality and that sort of stuff. The process is kind of universal, but in an anxiety disorder, it just goes off the rails. So it's not like a broken process, it's just a regular process that's gone off the rails. You don't want to be special. It's okay to not be special in this. You want to be textbook garden variety, you really do.

SPEAKER_03 23:39

So, yeah, so I remember one time when I was doing an agrophobia exposure with DPDR. So I walked outside the sky is like bright and blue and vast for some reason. I don't really care about the sky, but that morning I did because for some reason. And I remember doing all that, and then as I'm walking and doing this exposure, I'm in that phase where I'm just trying to do it right. Am I doing exposures right? Are my thoughts right? Are they correct? And then obviously, because I'm seeing things through the lens of dissociation, all the existential thoughts come in. And I'm like, what is this? What is life? What is this? What's the point in this, etc.? Like nihilism, and then you need to work this out, and then go down this ruminative hole. That is a very lonely experience. And I thought I was going crazy, and I did think I was special, not in a good way, in a wow, this is only happening to me, and I'm seeing something here that needs to be solved because I'm in this down this well on my own, and I don't feel like anyone's out can get me out. Now, if that applies to you and you have the existential stuff and the DPDR stuff, you're not alone. You're listening to an a podcast episode on it by people that understand it and know that it's just one of those mechanisms you've got this. Um a lot of it is just being like, okay, you know, thanks Alice for showing me Wonderland, but I'm gonna stay on the surface today because I'm actually in a sensitized state. So going into Wonderland in a sensitized state is not recommended for me.

SPEAKER_05 25:17

Yeah, it's not gonna help me. And and so, but that usually leaves you firmly in, yeah, but I don't, but I'm afraid, or I'm uncertain, or I'm really anxious about this. And the answer is like, yeah, I know. So like the trick here is like recognizing I'm having some thoughts that are triggering me. What's good, what's actually happening right now? And for existential themes, that could be an important framing statement that leads you to that non-engagement response or backing away from the compulsion. It's what's actually happening right now. I'm super sensitive at the moment, and I'm having thoughts that are triggering a fear that I'm carrying right now. And so I'm feeling that fear. I'm afraid. That's why my body is doing this and this. I'm afraid. It's okay to be afraid. You're allowed to be afraid. But now, what do I want to do with that fear? If I try to solve it, I'm gonna be back here again two hours in the same situation. So I'm just gonna have to let that fear work itself through like it does normally, organically, all the time. Yeah, it's not it's not failing. And I think this is so important because sometimes in the existential anxiety world, people will feel like, no, but you don't understand, just like the health anxiety people, but you don't understand this is my health. No, no, but you don't understand this is death. No, but you don't understand it's my kids. No, but you don't understand, it feels like I'm gonna pass out. Like there's that specialist.

SPEAKER_03 26:29

That applies to everyone else. You're but but I'm the exception, but for me, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 26:36

But for but you don't understand, but then I'm left with this feeling I know. So you're learning how to work through the feeling without trying to actively solve it, which sounds ridiculous, but it's the way we want to do it.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

The thought is not so on an Instagram reel as well. I think that's why we didn't get the CBT top 100 influences. Yeah, bottom three. You should do self-soothing one or tapping our faces or something, the ones that get engagement and likes, and then maybe we'll get on that list. I'm not bothered by the list, by the way. I'm not bothered. Yeah, no, no, not at all. I'm not you're bothered. Why are you bothered?

SPEAKER_05 27:13

I'm not bothered, you're bothered. Is it just me? Is it just me? You're right though. These are hard, that is a hard sell in any situation. It'd be much easier for us to turn on the mics and try and like give you all the proof that this is well. Let me tell you why this isn't a simulation that we're living in. Or you know what? Well, we're talking about social media, we could probably bring this up. This isn't just railing against bad social media accounts. But we when Josh said before, existential existential dread is a thing we all all humans understand that term. And this is why things that you see on social media, like scientists have proof that we are living in a simulation. No, don't click on that. You know, there those things are we scientists prove that this is why this cannot be a simulation. I've seen both of those things. And remember, they are poking at what is an emotional subject of the city.

SPEAKER_03 28:04

If you don't get six hours sleep, you'll die. I don't know why suddenly from the border of Texas, but yeah, just like if you you and it's and then you say that to an anxious uh fixator, and they're like, Oh, I can't sleep, I'm gonna die. Like, no, you're gonna click it.

SPEAKER_05 28:22

Yeah, so this is one of those situations where sometimes not then I know people will say, but isn't that separate? Like, I should be clicking on that for exposure. No, you're not clicking on it for exposure. That's part of your compulsion. You're clicking on those to try to answer the question that is making you upset. So, what if you don't click on it? Like, what if you unfollow all those things? What if yeah, they don't they don't uh sometimes I've I've encountered some pushback on that, but isn't that mean I'm avoiding? I that's an exposure for me to read that article. No, no, the exposure is the feeling you have.

SPEAKER_03 29:00

You can be part of ERP if you're frightened to do that, if if that's if you're willing to do the response prevention. So there's some people that are like, yeah, you know, I actually frightens me. I I don't want to read Stephen Hawking's book, you know, and sorry, okay. So let's read a few paragraphs and then put the book down and not react or ruminate.

SPEAKER_05 29:23

Well depends on how you come into it. If you're spending all day long reading that stuff, then you're just gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

If you avoid it like a lot of people, we don't actually consider that. People who have existential anxiety who avoid all of that because they're afraid of any existential thought that freaks them out, and this is kind of like oh, anything existential actually really frightens me, so I avoid it. Then it would be the opposite, you know. So I know people that'll be like they wouldn't watch uh Inception because it frightens them. Yep, and in that case, it's the opposite, watch inception.

SPEAKER_05 30:00

Yeah, or sometimes it's the uh I've had two that were sunglasses. I always wear sunglasses, like, well, you're gonna have to take them off. And another one was a person who wore a hat with a pretty wide brim, almost like a cowboy hat, because they didn't want to see the sky.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

Or whatever it is, the sun the sun visor down on the car, yeah, not needed, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:26

I can't, I cannot look up. I need, I need to almost, I want to if there could be a ceiling on the world, I would put one in because I don't want to look at the sky. So it really depends on what what your presentation is. If you're digging compulsively all the time, then you got to back out of that. If you're avoiding like the flight in garbage, do basically do what your anxious mind doesn't want you to do. Yeah, tells you not to do. That's exactly right. Take off your hat and look up. Like, ooh, but that's gonna make me feel the way. I know we're gonna practice that feeling. So the as you can see, the same rules, and I'm using air quotes, apply even in existential anxiety. There's no special diantec. So tough topic. I know, because it really frightens people. It frightened the hell out of me, man. I I think maybe the most scared I ever was, even all the time, even after 10,000 panic attacks that I was still sure was a heart attack.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Those were terrifying. Your frightening one, whereas for me it ranks eighth. I seven more things scared me more than existential panic tech.

SPEAKER_05 31:23

Have you seen the feed spot top eight things that scared Josh? I don't think I made it.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

I don't think I made it in the top. You're number 11 in your top top. Top eight therapists called Josh Fletcher, based in Manchester. I didn't make the top eight.

SPEAKER_05 31:39

Josh was 32 on that. Stop bringing it up. No, we're not interested in that list at all.

SPEAKER_06 31:47

That's so funny though.

SPEAKER_05 31:48

Like, so that wasn't frightening to you. It was was frightening to me was again the heart attack feeling like it was a heart attack I mean, the panic attack feeling like a heart attack was struck. Definitely scary. Don't get me wrong.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

It's more just a lot. The fear of going crazy, the fear of being stuck feeling this way forever. Number two, number three was the topic heartbeats. Uh used to freak me out. Um number four was just annihilation. I suppose that's an existential one, but it was more like a I don't understand the feeling. Yeah, um five was what if I'm never obsessed about what if I never feel the same again. Uh and then, and yeah, those existential questions came just a bit after that. So it's interesting, like, because everyone always says, you know, you always see the the comments like oh, DPDR is the worst, palpitations are the worst, health anxiety is the worst, your brain and threat response and emotions and feelings and whatever however whatever you've been through to get to this point in life has deemed the worst. Um, and the proof in that is if you look at everyone with OCD themes, every single person with OCD is like, I wish I could switch my theme with that person. Yeah, well, that's a paradox because the worst theme is triggering exactly the same response in you in them as your theme is doing for you. It's nothing to do with the thoughts and the content, it's about what it's doing physiologically and your relationship with that and that's again the principles of cooking.

SPEAKER_05 33:16

So you're listening to two people here that lived a very similar experience. The phenomenology is the same. We had the same rapid heartbeat, the same dizzy, the same blah blah blah. Like because we're humans and we had the same processes, but for some reason, I found the thought of annihilation at death most frightening. I would put that in no, you don't understand, man. That's the worst. I don't care what anybody says, that's the worst. Whereas that would be like number three.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

I mean, episode 100's coming up, that would be hilarious. Celebrate a hundred episodes of disorders. We're gonna talk about death and annihilation.

SPEAKER_05 33:48

But if you did it anyways, this is why we're a bottom three podcast, brother. We gotta up our game. Not bothered. We are not bothered.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Uh have we got any community with we do.

SPEAKER_05 34:04

We have a really good did it anyway, and then we'll maybe wrap up with a combined did it away and a question. So let's hear this win first because it's really lovely.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Hi, Drew and Josh. This is Sam here, speaking from Barcelona, Spain. Long time sufferer of health anxiety and other generalized anxiety disorder since I was about 17. And it got worse two years ago when I broke off with some friends and started my long-term relationship, which is still going on today. And uh also I had a panic attack on a plane two months ago, which really changed my attitude and said, Hey, let's um change my uh mentality towards this anxiety. It's not gonna go away by itself. I'm going to have to work on this. So I decided to research online. I came across your podcast, the works of Dr. Claire Weeks, and it really helped me get a shift in attitude with regards to anxiety, to let it be there, to not make it go away immediately, to let my heart beat, to to let my breath be short. If my heart beat fast, it does not matter, it'll subside by itself. And uh this has allowed me to do things uh recover the joy in my life. Because before I used to go to meals and constantly worry about my symptoms. Uh, I used to sit in waiting rooms, constantly get panicky, want to leave, sit by the door. And this just made me like constantly look inwards to my symptoms all the time. And now, thanks to your podcast and the attitude shift, I'm starting to be able to look outwards again and look at life with joy and uh as an adventure that it is. So, really, really grateful for the work you do, guys. It's so good, it helps help me so much, and I think it helps the community so much. So please keep up the good work and uh thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

Well done to Sam in Barcelona, and thanks for sharing that and uh sharing the arc there as well. And I love that. Actually, I can have shortness of breath. Actually, my heart can race, and I need to teach my brain, you know, I can do that and uh venture forth with curiosity. Well done.

SPEAKER_05 36:19

At the end of the last episode, I said we're all in the even if game, the even if game, and I and I think there's a great example of that. Like, even if I am anxious today, I still might find a way to access some joy and and satisfaction in life. That's a great I really, really love that one. So thank you, Sam. Should we move on to our final, which is a did it anyway? It's a combined did it anyway and question. So we'll share and then we'll maybe answer if we can. So here we go.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Hey Josh, hey Drew. This is Michael. First off, I want to thank you for all the work that you both do. Your books and podcasts have been a massive help to me and so many others. I've struggled with an anxiety disorder for about four years, but over the last two, I felt like I've made real progress towards recovery. And last week I took a big step I didn't even think was possible. I flew five and a half hours to Utah for a family vacation. In fact, I've always associated the onset of my anxiety disorder with a past travel experience, so this was particularly challenging. I even considered bailing on multiple occasions due to the anticipatory anxiety, but I just kept returning to my values. And when the day came, I faced the fear head-on, and surprisingly, I got through the entire trip with very little anxiety. Sure, there were moments of fear, but not that secondary fear. Uh, one of my favorite moments was actually making it to the top of the ski mountain we were staying at at 11,000 feet above sea level. And I'm not that confident of a snowboarder, but I made it down and had a ton of fun doing it. And the ride up on the chairlift and the ride down on the snowboard really felt poetic, like a metaphor for this whole journey. So now to part two, which is a question. Since coming home, I felt like I've hit a setback. I've had a lot of generalized anxiety, tightness, nausea, discomfort, a bit of depression. I feel really resensitized, and it's been tough to sit with, especially after feeling so good and proud on the trip. My question is, is this common to experience after a big step forward? And if so, why does it happen? Thanks again for everything you both do, and I look forward to hearing from you.

SPEAKER_05 38:29

The applause is for the did it anyway part. Not for the setback partner, of course.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

And you've come home and you've realized and noticed you're having a lot of these symptoms. Um what do you think, Drew? Top 100 CBT influencer that I don't care about.

SPEAKER_05 38:48

This speaks to, if you haven't listened to episode 98, which we did last week, that we talked about, you know, was it willful tolerance in the sensitive due to differences of uh of direction? It wasn't that good. We had creative differences. We didn't even last a week, we didn't even last two hours because we're literally more cowbell. In this situation, I think that applies. The lessons from the last episode kind of apply here. Like I did all these things, but but now I'm having feelings and sensations. So, like, I what do I do with that? Well, kind of the same thing. I'm not trying to be flippant about it, but like, what did you do when you got on the plane and went on the trip? Like, okay, I brought those that fear with me, and I did the best I could to engage with the trip and did what I needed to do, right? So, you know, or whatever the challenge happens to be in your particular case. So I don't really have any special tips for now. What do I do? Well, notice that you're paying it very close attention.

SPEAKER_03 39:45

That's the difference, isn't it? Now now I've come home and my attention isn't outwards and it's not engaged, and my I'm not I've lost the curiosity of outwards attention. I've lost the willful tolerance, I've lost the willful part of tolerance, I've gone inwards. I hate how I feel. You've even listed in the question now, which is a good start. You've listed, you can observe. I've got generalized anxiety, I've got this symptom, I've got that symptom, that symptom. I'm hearing just from even the question that the attention's gone inwards. Going away and going to Utah and it's a massive trip where your attention will be external. And I loved how you observed, yeah, I was anxious, that was okay. There was no secondary fear. Sounds a bit like you've come home and I'm anxious, and that's no longer okay, which is creating secondary fear.

SPEAKER_05 40:31

Yeah, sometimes I think it's well, well, I was on the trip, so I did have something to choose as a different option. I had snowboarding and hanging out with my friends or my family, whatever it was. So something was handed to me that could be a better option than just being inwardly focused. But now at home, I don't, it's routine and there's nothing to keep, there's nothing to distract me. This is where you have to take what feels like a risk. Like it doesn't feel safe to just do my laundry and drive to work and read this book or answer my email or chat with a friend. Doesn't feel safe to do that, but I'm I'm gonna have to take a chance that it is safe and do that anyway. 51% of the attention somewhere else, doesn't matter what it is, right?

SPEAKER_03 41:11

Good enough.

SPEAKER_05 41:12

Yeah. See, I listen to the podcast too. We should be much higher in the rankings, brother.

SPEAKER_03 41:15

The rankings again, I reiterate, I don't care about stop bringing it up. Uh I don't know if anybody has to be able to do that. Number one is the number one is the anxiety healer. Oh nothing, I it would just I'm just stating a fact that the number one on that positive sprout, whatever it was list, is the anxiety healer. Um, and there's a fact for you in a pub quiz that you'll attend to that where that question will never come up. Um, yeah. I'm gonna go home and cry. It's okay, because all emotions are okay.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

All states permissive. It's okay. It's okay. I want to be top of a list that isn't to do with crying.

SPEAKER_05 42:07

We're joking, but in a way, yeah, yeah, it's nothing to do with crying. Top three whining podcasts. We're on that one.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

As always, thanks for tuning in. Your questions um and you did it anyway. Send them in to disordered.fm. Give Drew and I a follow on Insta and uh anxietyjosh and the.anxious.truth. Thank you for your reviews. We're really appreciated, and we'll catch you every Friday.

SPEAKER_05 42:35

Yeah, and when you pop over to disordered.fm, get in our mailing list because when we do round table chats, which are little small group discussions of different topics that we do once or twice a month, the mailing list knows about them. We often we don't even say talk about them on social media, so put in your email. We're out. See you guys next week.