Exercise, Gym, and Exertion Anxiety (Episode 41)

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Hey Drew and Josh, just wanted to stand along and did it anyway. I've been up to my ears in exposures these past few weeks, and one of the ways I've been moving forward has been by using exercise as an exposure in and of itself. Like many people, I long believed that the symptoms of strenuous ph physical activity and the symptoms of a panic attack felt the same. And as a result, my damned amygdala was always screaming at me to stop, stop, stop now before you hurt yourself. But as I've approached exercise recently, I've discovered that it's a great way to dig two holes with one shovel. I'm getting out there and doing the thing while also being able to act back, not talk back to those worries. I almost ran six miles today and I didn't have to fight my mind at any point. It's a huge step in the right direction. Thank you both for all you do. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode number 41. We're talking about Heart Gym Exercise and Exertion Anxiety. I am Drew Linzolata, a graduate student in clinical mental health counseling and a therapist in training in the state of New York and the US of A. I am an author, a podcaster, an educator on the topic of anxiety disorders, and a former sufferer for over 25 years on and off with anxiety disorders and depression.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

And I am Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist specializing in anxiety disorders in Manchester in the UK, and co-host of this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:21

I love this topic, heart gym and exercise anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Yeah, I mean that uh did it anyway, was um uh a brilliant way to start this episode. Um, I did struggle with this for a while, years back.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

What about you? Oh, in a big way. Um, I mean, I'm a big gym rat. I don't hide that. And going back into the gym was one of the best things I did, but also one of the most scary things I did. We can talk about all the crazy rituals that I know you had and I had. But yeah, I had this for sure. Yeah, we can talk through them one day.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

I mean, now I'm I'm all right with it and it's okay, but we can talk through some of the um experiences that we had. Um talk about heart anxiety. We'll talk about gym anxiety in the sense that some people are afraid to go to the gym because they're afraid of the symptoms of of panic, and some are just afraid of the gym because they're afraid of judgment, social anxiety. Uh, and yeah, I mean it can often bring up a lot of shame in people. Uh, I found that the gym is um almost like a like an arena for people that brings up a lot of uncomfortable emotions and feelings.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

I think it could be b all of those things at the same time. It could be really challenging because there could be I just don't like people looking at me because I don't like the way I look, or I feel like I'm not competent at the gym. And then if I'm anxious at the gym, that's even worse. People might see me be anxious at the gym, so it can really snowball. It it could be a challenging place. I didn't get that. What was it like for you then? I think it was like for me, I was a little bit more of the mechanical, like these feelings that happen in my body when I push my body and exert myself feel so much like panic that I would panic in the gym. And they would, you know, it was normal after a set of squats or breast prints or bench press or whatever I was doing, of course, your heart's gonna rate uh race. And I would try and lift heavy weight and get back into that because that's what I like to do. No judgment, it's just what I like to do. And especially and leg exercises where there's a lot of oxygen consumption and those huge muscles, you know, yeah, and those sets feeling uh gassed and a little bit lightheaded, and oh boy, that was such a hard thing to experience because that felt like everything I was terrified of. So I would panic in the gym all the damn time at first.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Yeah, me too. I was I was a constant monitor. So monitor yeah, my heart, my pulse, the damn fitness watch things that that come in. In fact, when I was struggling with anxiety, didn't have a fitness watch. I had one of those monitors on the back of your phone. So I put my finger on it and make sure that it was in the right, it wasn't beating too fast, or if it was beating regularly. But these heart monitors weren't that great either. So it was just fueling my anxiety. It was like, oh, you know, it was it was a 120 and now it's 180 and now it's 150, and and now I'm getting uh I used to be getting like um heart palpitations, so I'm like, oh what if I have a heart palpitation when I'm on the treadmill uh and then my heart explodes, or what if I push it too far, even though my body was capable of way more, you know, but it feels like you're pushing it to its very limit, and it's like, well, no, it's that's the sensation that it's giving you. It's very okay to exercise um with adrenaline. Um that's what most kind of athletes run with. Yeah, professional athletes have got adrenaline pumping through their bodies, which is you know, physiologically very similar to feeling anxiety, and it's regarded as performance enhancing, but for people with anxiety disorders, particularly fear of fear, yeah, uh, it can make us go inwards and it feels feels debilitating.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Yeah, you know, one of the things that I found myself doing, and this was helpful when I when I gained the awareness of this, is I would go to exercise because I wanted to, I just wanted to feel better, like physically, and then I would exercise, but also try to lower my heart rate. Like, hello. Yeah, it was completely absurd, but I was so afraid of feeling those things that when I first went back to the gym, I would raise my heart. I knew I was gonna raise not dumb. I would raise my heart rate and then try desperately to breathe properly to lower my heart rate.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Oh, I have done that when I was playing football. Yeah. I was looking, I was looking at my heart rate monitor. I was like, oh, that's that's a bit high.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

You know, and even though I felt like I can run a bit more and sprint, I was like, oh, I better not push it.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

And I was like, because I was because people with anxiety disorders, one of the main fears is, you know, oh, what if I lose control in some way? And sometimes this can manifest as what if my heart stops because the anxiety plus the exertion of exercise? Oh, surely that's too much.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

Oh, too much for sure. So it was the weird thing that I discovered that I was doing on a regular basis. I would do it a lot during cardio too. I'd be on a bike or a treadmill or whatever, and I'd feel like, oh, my heart rate is going too high. I don't like this. I would be afraid of it. And I would try to slow my breathing down. Like, how ridiculous is it for a human being to be trying to run and breathe slow at the same time? I mean, I could laugh about it now for sure, but at the time it seemed like the right thing to do. I better slow it, slow down my breathing, and then I would start to get really out of breath because I was trying to not breathe so hard, but my body needed to breathe hard, and I made a mess of it for a while. I really did.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

I imagine um one of many safety behaviors.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

Oh, geez. You're looking for the defibrillators on the wall. We talked about that a little in the last episode. How far away am I from an AED? Can the guy working the desk today at the gym does he even know it's there? There were so many times I almost wanted to do that sneaky reassurance thing of just mentioning it on the sly, you know, like no one would notice that I was talking about it, just to see if he knew what they were. And I'm like, it was it was tiring.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

I used to have social anxiety in the gym, but the need to be rescued. So I tactically position myself so if I collapsed, someone could see me, but I wouldn't be as close to them. So they I didn't feel the shame of kind of trying to compare myself to these, you know, gym people that are in there constantly with amazing bodies and all that. And I'd be like, what what an what a conflict of anxieties affecting my behavior?

SPEAKER_03 7:44

Yeah, I don't want to be seen, but I really need to be seen, like no win for you and your poor brain at that moment, right? So I get it. I get it. And I think it's so important that we acknowledge that there's such a wide-ranging message, and there's truth in this that anxiety is helped by exercise. And one of the things that I think beats on our community a lot is all I hear is how exercise is good for me, but it makes me feel worse. What's wrong with me? Yeah, it will make you feel the things you fear. Nobody, you know, people who say like, oh, exercise is the best thing for anxiety, forget that if you're afraid of that anxiety, you're not just doing stress management, you're intentionally triggering the things you are terrified of. So they forget the part where they tell you it's going to be scary before it's good for you. It's always good for you.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

But yeah, yeah, yeah, it's gonna be scary. It's not just the heart as well, the when you are in the gym. Um, someone asked me the other day, like, I like going to the gym, but the feeling I get after the gym, I feel derealization, dissociation, and therefore I avoid it or I don't push myself as much as I like because I don't like the feeling of feeling nauseous or derealized after the gym. So we kind of kind of kind of got to put that in there too.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

That's true. The feeling after. I remember at one point calling my doctor because you know he was like, Come on, get on the treadmill. And I was in terrible shape. This was in the really in the thick of it. I was going through the antidepressant withdrawal. He was like, Come on, I want you to get and at least move a little bit. And I and I did. And I remember calling him after being on the treadmill. And he got it, he was so nice. He got on the phone with me and he's like, What's going on? I'm like, My heart is beating. I don't know what's going on. He's like, You were on the treadmill, it's okay. Your heart is okay. And by the way, we should throw this in here. Anyone that's giving you sort of any talk about exercise would say, make sure that you're okay to exercise. You've been medically cleared for that. We have to say it. Yeah, you know that that we're assuming that you are physically healthy here, but uh yeah, he was so nice and he had to talk me down the after the exercise. Like, I don't like this feeling. And he was like, It's okay, yeah. He was great, but uh yeah, yeah, I used to get that feeling for sure.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Yeah, and it's yeah, it's one of those. I I remember the difference is like you know, you're doing all right when I like to use like the cross trainer a lot and stuff, and on the cross trainer, back when I was in in the middle of an anxiety disorder, my whole attention would just be scanning how I felt, how I was breathing, monitoring for palpitations. Um, am I getting dizzy? Am I getting lightheaded? Uh and noticed the other day I was on the cross trainer and I was just thinking about nonsense. I was just thinking about like daydreaming. I was like, oh, I wonder what I want, I wonder what I need to do for work later, or I was living some memories, or just you know, just letting the brain go off and and do what it needs to do, but comparing that to the midst of that threat monitoring compulsion where I feared anxiety, where my I was going through the motions, not enjoying it because my attention was locked into how I felt. And I think that's a that's a big difference where our attention often goes internal because we're trying to scan from the disaster.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

Yeah, you were you had no room, there's no room for any other thoughts. It was just I must scan to stay safe. Now maybe you could be on the trainer and like thinking about I don't know, the book you have coming out. That would be a thing to think about.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah. So if here's the advice.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

I got you back.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Yeah. If you pre-order, and how does that make you feel whilst you're on the trainer? Uh don't do that. You might maybe uh but yeah, keep the questions coming. Really enjoying them, by the way. Pre-order my book and I'll answer your question. Just email me pre purchase and I will answer any question you have. If you go to disorder, thanks, Drew.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

Thanks for helping me plug. You're very welcome. If you go to disorder.fm slash 41, I'll have a link. It's Josh's pre-order. It's a good book. Anyway, back to gym anxiety. The uh the the being so focused on how I was feeling and if I was overdoing it, and if I was gonna be okay, and if I was gonna panic, it was really hard. And and my analog to that would be having times when all I wanted to do was leave. And I did, there were times when I did walk out of the gym, one or two times when I did go back home, and uh I just gave in to the fear like this is too much, and I did go back home. Um, that was hard. I beat myself up a little over that, but there were a lot of times when I would walk out and just maybe hang out in the parking lot, or I'll sit, let me sit in the car for five minutes, then I'd go back in. There was a lot of that for me. I didn't have any room to actually engage in the exercise I was doing. I was just too worried about trying to manage my body and make sure it was okay. So when I stopped doing that, when I was able to not do that, or what what I for me it started to look like shorter time between the trigger of like I better go home and the oh no, I don't have to go home, I could do this. That became that time became shorter and shorter. Otherwise, I'd spend a lot of time between sets sitting on a bench looking to see how far I was from the door, debating whether or not I should go home or go outside and get some air. A lot of that. A lot of that didn't care what I was doing, didn't know how much I was lifting, didn't matter, just should I leave? So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:46

How much of uh from the perspective we'll we'll go on to kind of the social anxiety steam bit in a bit, but how much from the perspective is it like kind of the gym can make me feel symptoms of disordered anxiety that I don't like, and a lot of it's to do with the heart and things like that, but there's you know, there's other ones as well, like I used to have this one where I I hated muscle twitching, so I wouldn't purposely wouldn't lift like healthy amounts of heavy weights because I didn't want to feel my muscles twitch.

SPEAKER_03 13:19

But that I hated that I had that one for years. Oh, I had so many muscle twitches back in those days, and you know, that's one of those things that if you start to bring it up, you'll get a million different bits of advice.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Oh yeah, it's so weird, right? Like I thought you meant I thought you meant one of those things that if you start focusing on it, yes, that's exactly what it was. It starts starts twitching more. I'm like, stop it.

SPEAKER_03 13:37

Right. I remember having twitches in all the muscles of my body and thinking, well, I know sometimes people get eye twitches, but like, am I supposed to feel a twitch in my left quadricep? Like any muscle could start twitching. And surprisingly, as I got better at dealing with those things, the twitching went away, as it turns out. But being so focused on it that I would bring it on even more. And yeah, that's a tough one because there's there's a shit ton of advice out there on like, oh, you need more magnesium or you need more potassium, eat bananas, do this, blah, blah, blah. No, none of it, none of it applied to my twitches. It was just I was terrified of every feeling in my freaking body. It's tough.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

Also, it makes sense because anxious people are tense, and when you're tense, almost every muscle in your body tenses up. So then you tense and then you go and do a healthy workout. Yeah, you're gonna get some benign fisculations, like that's that's the body just doing what it does.

SPEAKER_03 14:30

Also, there was the anytime I would add a different exercise. I remember the first time I got back into squat rack. And I've been out of the gym for many, many years. I was in terrible shape. I gained a ton of weight while I was on the meds. And I remember the first time I squatted, I was just just using the bar. I'm a pretty decently built dude at this point, but I was squatting just the bar, 45 pounds, which is a little bit embarrassing for me doing that that day. And I walked out of the gym like a baby giraffe. My legs were shaking, and that terrified me. But that's just because I hadn't done that in 10 years. Oh no shame in that drawer.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

I've done squats where it's just my body weight.

SPEAKER_03 15:05

Yeah, body weight squat.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

That'll be and the next day my legs are hurting.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Yeah, or shaking, or they would be sore the next day, and I'm like, oh, that soreness can't be good. Something must be wrong. I have to monitor the soreness, and this is the thing.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

If you do struggle with this type of anxiety, you know, or you see gym as like a medium-long-term goal for you, um, you know, start by practicing getting your heart rate up. Go for a a strenuous walk, walk up and down your stairs if you if you have stairs. Um, if you um don't have like kind of access to use your legs, maybe perhaps you're in a wheelchair or I've got mobility issues. Do some exercise maybe at home, get your arms moving, do something like that, get something that gets the heart rate up. Uh, and then you can start practicing with these with these symptoms, um, called interoceptive exposure. And it teaches the brain look, actually, this is all healthy stuff that my brain and body is designed to do. Uh, obviously, Drew said the disclaimer before, make sure you get the okay from your doctor and stuff. But most people can find that they can exercise in some way that's comfortable for for them. Comfortable in the sense that non-anxious you would be comfortable doing it, not comfortable in the sense of I want to avoid this because I don't want to feel anxious. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

The interoceptive exposure was so helpful to me because I understood what that was. And that's what got me to be able to move through all the struggles that I'm talking about. Because I knew that's what I was doing, and I and I was, and it was really helpful. But I think it's also important for me to be honest and say I didn't go from completely sedentary to jumping into the gym, a public gym. I spent a lot of time on the treadmill in my basement, walking it at a painfully slow pace. I that's how I started. So it's okay if I literally told people if you have to stand up in front of your sofa and just walk in place because that gets your heart rate or you're breathing to the point where you're uncomfortable, it's perfectly okay to start there. You don't have to start by 100%. There's nothing wrong with it at all. So you know, don't good start. Yeah. Uh I did all that stuff before I was able to go to that gym.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

So did you ever have esteem issues in the gym? Uh I I worked with and had that myself. Um, I'm right now, don't really care. But like in the past, like the gym can be quite a symbolic place for people. It brings up um kind of a lot of things for them.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

Yeah, I I mean I I will admit I did not really have those problems. There were moments when I knew, like, boy, I'm this this weight is for me, it was lightweight historically, but that's because of where I have been for the previous 10 years. That was hard. It felt a little bit embarrassing, but I I generally don't struggle with that stuff. Um, but I'm thankful for our community that has helped me understand that in the times that I have been in the gym, I can see the people that I know are struggling. And unfortunately, I was in a gym that was, you know, uh it was owned by a power lifter and a bodybuilder. So there was a lot of meatheads, and I I use that word for myself too. It was a hard environment for some people. It could be intimidating. I get that for sure. Um, but I didn't have that issue. You started with that issue, you think?

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Uh a little bit. I think I grew up in a in a in a town where uh it was important for like there's a lot of gyms around, it's important to be big. It was a rugby town, so it was important to be big and muscly and all that stuff. And when I was younger, I did find it intimidating. Um now I don't, but yeah, that used to play a play a part in it. But I think there's so much pressure on kind of body image and stuff now, um, body sculpting. And don't get me wrong, if you're into bodybuilding, things like that, good good for you. You know, you you do those things, you want to look after yourself, good for you. Um, but it how you value yourself is completely up to you. How you look and how big your muscles are, how trimmed you are. You know, if you think that that's how you should value yourself, then you know, I'd I'd invite you to question that. Uh the gym I go to now, yeah, there's a lot of there's a mix, there's a lot of uh um very kind of aesthetically uh pleasing people, should we say, from a conventional sense, you know, they're it's quite intimidating. Uh both people of all genders in there just kind of um and you think, oh gosh, if I'm walking in there for the first time, I'm just coming out here, I've been struggling with anxiety, I've got self-esteem issues. Um this is quite intimidating. Also, I found as well that the gym can almost almost act as like a almost like a reminder of the school playground, and this comes up a lot in my practice. It's like, oh wow, I'm I'm an adult and I'm going in here, but it taps into a fear, a conditioned response in the amygdala that is just like, oh, oh, I remember this. And are you gonna press the amygdala button? I'm thinking about it. I saw your face, you're like, oh. But also it can be the arena ran by the arena master that is Craig the Critic.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

It's Craig the Critic.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

Yeah, it was faster on that. I think good.

SPEAKER_01 20:13

Um be there waiting.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

You know what? The gym does maybe this is a little bit more of a you know a male specific thing, but I think for everybody, for women too, there seems like that built-in hierarchy in the gym. These are the biggest people, the strongest people, the fittest people in different categories. This person is very functionally fit or incredibly flexible or has a very high degree of cardiovascular fitness, and I don't. That person's bigger than me and stronger than me, and I'm not. So it could be really easy to buy. You know what? Even without that type of anxiety, it can be easy to fall into that trap. Like, I'm not as big as that guy, I'm not as strong as that guy. Like, no, no, no, no, I gotta back away from that stuff. That might make you feel a little eh like I wish I was, or I'd like to be stronger. I'm working on it, but like, all right, I'm not. What am I gonna do? You just don't need to be either. Not today. I'm not I'm not stronger than and I'm not as strong as him today. Might never be. All right, yeah, that's okay. Doesn't matter. I'm all right anyway.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

Doesn't matter. Like, I I walk in the gym now, I'm like, yeah, they worked it out on themselves. I know my limits, and I can't go to the gym more than two, three times a week. Yeah, because I die of boredom. Uh I'll go on my punching bags, I'll do some weights, and I'm like, well done. Like I like the feeling afterwards, I know it's good for me. I like getting reaping the benefits later psychologically psychologically, but yeah, I I'm I'm not gonna compare myself to those guys, you know. And I've got many traits that they probably envy in me, and same with you. Like you've got traits that they probably envy. It's okay. The gym shouldn't be seen. Also, you know what we like about exposures. If it scares you, do it. Go do it anyway.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Yeah, 100%. I think it's interesting because if you have that sort of like shame feelings or embarrassed feelings or social anxiety going on. be tempting for me to try and explain it away. Don't worry about it. Nobody's looking at you. But it is true. I do want to mention that because the vast majority of people, even the guys throwing big weights around in the free weight area, they're so listen, I'm just so focused on what I'm doing that if you ask for help, I'm happy to do it. If you're in the gym working on yourself in any way, shape or form with the lightest weights and the slowest speed in the treadmill, good for you. And I think no one cares. No one cares. We're not looking at you. No one's looking at you. And if we are, there's a level of respect. You're here too. We're doing different things, but so what? Everybody should be welcome there.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

But it's hard to really believe that. Yeah particularly if you're not in the best shape at the moment or your doctor says you might need to lose a bit of weight or whatever. Or the doesn't matter. You're in there for you. Other people don't matter. That's okay. And if you've got to go in there with the the anxiety disorder stuff and you've got that two layers of fear well that's a that's a double did it anyway. Absolutely which you are more than capable of handling.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

I'm never going to forget this one guy. I'm never going to see him again. My gym has been close for many years now that gym but the the highest level of psychological flexibility and probably okayness I've ever seen in a gym ever was a guy who would be there all the time. He was committed so respect to him. He would be on a stationary bike with a can of Coca-Cola and a candy bar. And I and I remember thinking that is a level of okayness with himself that we can all aspire to like y'all can go to hell if you don't like this. This is what I'm doing now. And he would and good for him more power to him.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

That was a choice he was making yeah I like that yeah he just reminded me there's a guy on my football team he used to eat a sandwich on the touchline minutes before kickoff. I'm like if I ate that I get a stitch immediately. Yeah. But he's having a sandwich and then a cigarette and he's just smoking he's waiting for kickoff. Yeah this guy where did he go just throw the throw the butt on the floor and boom and it just runs and I'm just like wow and I'm you know I'm in perceivably better shape and I'm worrying about my heart exploding running around playing football and he's there like nah screw it.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

Yeah just smoke a cigarette before I run out of the pitch I mean I think it's sometimes we can use it don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

No I would we don't condone that but I'm saying that your body can come can take more than what you think.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

Yeah the the the anxiety in that arena will make us treat ourselves like we're very fragile or we're made of glass. But we're not again assuming that you are healthy and there's no underlying physiological condition. But even if there is within the limits of that that condition, you know there are things you may be capable of doing you know properly under medical supervision. But anxiety will tell us to treat ourselves like we're just literally made of crystal and we're going to shatter at any moment. And my experience in the gym taught me that that was not true. It was incredibly valuable it was difficult but it was incredibly valuable to me. It was a huge part of my recovery.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

Yeah and also on the identity side of things and if if you're someone who's perhaps been bullied or shamed whatever people in there are not out to get you no your anxiety will tell you you don't belong here people are judging and shaming no no no there are often things that dredge up in ourselves.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

Now don't get me wrong humans are human you might get a judgmental person in there whatever but they're not out to get you yeah you know and if they didn't bullied you they'd be banned from the gym wouldn't they so you know we have gyms here we have a gym chain called Planet Fitness which people like it's funny because it's it's the people will pick on Planet Fitness because there's a big bowl of Tootsie rolls on the way out like but it's a friendly place. It's supposed to be there's a lunk alarm there. Like we don't have barbells full of big plates here and if you drop your weights and you grunt we're going to sound the lunk alarm and you don't belong here. So they even try to accommodate that because it's a well known phenomenon that people would be self-conscious in the gym or maybe a little bit embarrassed. So they try to accommodate that and help people. I love that it's a good thing. I don't pick on Planet Fitness. I'm glad they're there. So yeah do you have a do you get you must get the grunters in your gym I can't stand the grunters. The biggest argument I ever saw in a gym was this guy was a monster. I mean he was a competitive power lifter and he was incredibly strong. So much respect for the work that he had put in and there was a woman who would be in that gym every day a lot of res much respect to her. She could have been more than about five foot two 120 pounds soaking wet she went at that guy so hard because of the grunting and the and the testosterone and the dropping the weight now dropping the weights I get they're heavy and it's a rubber floor can drop the weights she boy what an argument they had because of his grunting. And I remember thinking I I can't stand the grunt going back to the misophonia episode and like couldn't take it.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Is that is that needed?

SPEAKER_03 26:40

That's what she told the guy she was right up in his face too no fear.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Yeah stop grunting it because it's aggressive and it makes people feel uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

Her thing was just like I I wouldn't go up to tell him but I'm glad that she did oh she had no fear. She walked right up to him and she got right up in his face and I remember all looking at it like good for her in a way I mean she just said it's just kind of rude because I what if I just started singing my music at the top of my lungs she had a reasonable point. And admittedly he was a little aggressive but then backed up and he was like you know you're probably right about singing thing. All right let me see what I can do. And they worked it out. So but that's good. Yeah even in that situation where this guy was a competitive strength athlete he was there to lift as much weight as to the chalk the every I mean you've seen that guy. Even he was willing to work with a woman who had completely different fitness goals and was there for totally then they found some common ground. So the gym will look very intimidating but unless you walk into a hardcore powerlifting gym where everyone there is trying to break a world record no one cares what you're doing with that.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Yeah you won't you won't find me in that gym.

SPEAKER_03 27:40

Yeah yeah that's the pub tough place to come sorry I'll be in the pub you go there I'll go over you you go for it guys uh I'll give in your emotional share sure I totally get it but uh I've seen also a lot of people who were really brave went into the freeway that freeway to area asked for help. You know and if you're that person you take that little dip your toe in and risk that that icky feeling of embarrassment or shame or like I'm not good enough and you do it good for you. You're working on top of it. What about the other people who use the gym compulsively oh that's a thing. I used to wonder about that too because you you you would always walk in and you'd see that person who has been on the on the stair mill for two hours. You know no maybe they were a competitive athlete and that's what they had to do. I don't know but I've known people who feel that they must use the gym compulsively because if they don't they might feel bad. Okay I get it like stress reduction and exercise as a stress management tool that's different for somebody who's dealing with an anxiety disorder who tries to use the gym to keep that at bay.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

The gym is avoidance it is a yes then it becomes an avoidance correct we had and did it anyway actually didn't we not so long ago the guy's a month or so ago a guy wrote in and said actually I chose not to go to the gym because every time I get anxious I exercise as an outlet for all the adrenaline this time he did the opposite he was like actually I'm not going to go to the gym now right because I know that's my safety behavior.

SPEAKER_03 29:10

Yeah or it becomes such a part of the recovery routine every day I get up I have to go to the gym for an hour I must meditate for 20 minutes I drink my green tea that stuff if you find that if you feel like you want to do it and it's helping you then awesome do it. If you feel like you have to do it or you must do it or you should do it then it might be something to consider in your recovery like back off a little bit that flexibility. What if I skip a day in the gym purposely I'm going to be uncomfortable I risk maybe being anxious that day okay you gotta learn we have to learn those lessons right so good point really good point compulsive gym going as or exercise as part of compulsive recovery. Yeah excellent I remember hearing from a guy who was an interesting story too and actually he circled back around in my Facebook group years later about a year later and he was better but he had developed the habit of doing push-ups get on the ground and do pushups. I know what to do if I start to get anxious I could just bang out some push-ups and it burns off the adrenaline which we could talk about if we want that's actually a fallacy biochemically but um he felt that if he would do pushups he could stave off panic and then he got in trouble at a concert he went to a concert and he tried to do pushups at the concert and they wouldn't have it. He's in a crowd of people and he was so annoyed they don't understand this is my coping mechanism and about a year later it just looks like he's showing off pushups that's exactly right about a year later he was able to say oh I see what I was doing there.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

But I get it he was using it as a as a bit of a an avoidance thing and then he figured it out after a while but sometimes it happens with people regardless of what your anxiety surrounding the gym the most common one is the heart one you know I'm afraid to get my heart rate going I have ectopic beats they skip what if I'm messing around with it and once you have the all clear from your doctor or you know your your team or whatever if you want to go that far um then yeah start practicing with it a bit at a time go up and downstairs you know you don't have to go to the gym you can just do your own exercise that's fine you know the gym is not for everyone um I some days I just don't go and just decide to go for a jog instead or go for a run because I want to be outside and and whatever that's okay if you've got the type of social anxiety and identity anxiety around being in the gym um you know that's always worth taking to therapy and challenging as well uh I'm just gonna like one understanding why soodle's having a drink of water don't you can hear that uh I'm enjoying watching him in the background he's been very entertaining yeah he's been doing he's been deadlifting behind me Josh is Dax and his yeah then it's a Dax and uh doing doing Royds behind me. Um but yeah it's um whether if even if it's that social anxiety it's always worth reflecting on you know why actually I know rationally it's a gem no one really cares so I can challenge that threat response uh there and also on the flip side the people that use the gem and exercise compulsively I know people even who don't have disordered anxiety but do have levels of anxiety where they will run every single day for hours until they are exhausted because it's like what's what happens when you stop yeah and they don't like that.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

I don't like the feelings when I stop uh usually a lot of people with uh productivity anxiety which was the last episode that can coincide with um anxious gym compulsions and exercise compulsions it's a good point because even even regular air quotes regular people can fall into those traps right like I remember Thanksgiving Thanksgiving in the US like the gym is the gym gonna be open on Thanksgiving are they are you open on Thanksgiving? Well yeah in the morning where good I gotta get in my workout before I like regular people can fall into that trap.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

I have to do this and also not forgetting like some people who with incredible bodies don't do that unhealthily too true there's lots of people with body dysmorphia and lots of people that pursue a lot of these things for the wrong reasons. Don't get me wrong some people do it for the right healthy reasons. You want to be a bodybuilder you want to do all these things that's cool. But I know from experience as well that you know I know people that do it unhealthily like if I don't do this a certain way I don't have value this is my entire identity no you're a multifaceted wonderful human being.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

This is just one of the traits you have always tough to see in the gym because you do see a lot of that especially in the circles that I traveled in you would see a lot like you you're checking for abs after every set in the gym people are susceptible to this sort of thing. And if you're dealing with an anxiety disorder you might be a little more susceptible to those compulsive behaviors. So just be on the lookout. The only thing that I would maybe add is using exercise as part of your recovery I'm a huge proponent. It helped me I started literally walking slowly on my treadmill I didn't go right to the gym and start squatting. But be careful where you take your exercise slash anxiety advice from it I'm not I'm not trying to besmirch anyone here and if somebody makes their living as a fitness influencer that's totally fine. More power to them but just be careful about trying to emulate a person who is a professional gym goer and use that in your anxiety recovery.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

As the barometer.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

As the barometer that's exactly right that person might not maybe that person lived through what you were that's possible. They could have had that experience and they wound up there. But just be careful about because I've seen people get in trouble with that too and also the the nutrition part of it. Be careful about that.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

And don't compare yourself to us I mean it took a many years for this eight pack shredded biceps and absolute adonis of a body you know you don't compare yourself to that you know we we I know we are you could make a calendar disordered calendar I'm Mr.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

February oh good yeah and I'm just like yeah holding a giant axe and you gotta put me like in September because if you put me in January they'll throw the calendar away and they won't even use it for the rest of the year.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

That no no no no you you you you've got it you've got it we both got it we'll flaunt it. I had to eat a lot of pizza to get to this give yourself absolutely absolutely uh yeah that that was really good uh gets to the stage of the episode now where we like to uh answer questions and share dinner anyways uh we got dinner anyway let's we do we have a good dinner anyway let's let's hear from this one because I think it's really solid hello my name's Alexandra and you are currently hearing from me as I'm standing in Rhodes Greece um I'm originally from the United States New York I am a study abroad student studying I have anxiety panic attacks and because of this I've been very agrophobic but my I did it anyway is that in 15 days I will happily be able to say that I have studied stayed and pushed through every trial that I've been in to be able to say that I've stayed for three months in a foreign country thousands of miles away from home um your guys' podcasts have helped me so much not only in the department of understanding what's going on but also understanding that I can do this in the end.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

So thank both of you so much for being here on my journey even though you guys did not know you were on it but I am so excited to be able to go home and have all these memories of not only the good times but me pushing through the bad times.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

So thank you so good. That's amazing Rhodes I love that from Rhode Island to Rhodes she was a New Yorker checking in man. Yeah I just I just wanted to squeeze into it that's amazing well done and again hear the pride proud pride in your voice and you should be proud of that it's outstanding and well done for your studies as well and thank you for sharing that I also love that you didn't know you were part of my journey I think that's really sweet. I think I need to no we knew I think I need to remind myself of that when my own Craig the critic screams right now exactly right no we we were watching we just didn't know it creepy yeah that is creepy super creepy we weren't watching I'm kidding I'm making a bad joke anyway well done we got some questions have you got a question or should I read a question? No why don't you go to the questions okay okay here we go hi there thank you for all that you guys do the podcast is incredibly helpful and look I look forward to the new episodes being released. Thank you my question is in relation to techniques methods and tools that my therapist is recommending that somewhat go against the approach that you guys provide. For example he has recommended affirmations as a way to get rid of the anxiety no not as a way to get rid of the anxiety but to rather put positive things in our minds when things sometimes appear very gloomy. More like a lifestyle habit for general wellness. Other techniques he has mentioned relate to reframing negative thoughts into positive ones. I get a little confused on this because the acceptance part is about accepting and allowing surrendering to everything that comes but being recommended but but being recommended to reframe thoughts somewhat goes against that notion as it's doing something in response to the anxiety thoughts.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

I'd love to hear your opinions on this thanks again hmm I think first of all it's really hard for us to neither of us wants to critique your therapist right because they know you and we they know what you're working on. So keep that in mind. But also keep in mind that a therapist gets to bring whatever theoretical orientation they want into it in a way and they always pretty I'm pretty sure they always mean well. The affirmations what do you think about that I'm not a I don't say it's inherently bad. I mean affirmations can be used in real productive ways I think as long as they're not compulsive use of affirmations to make the anxiety go away yeah I mean I don't really use affirmations but I'm a different therapist.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

It's up to you to decide whether they're they're happy whether they're good. You did mention you know as not as a way to get rid of anxiety so it's good your therapist doesn't suggest doing that compulsively um which is good. It depends for me I if you're struggling with an anxiety disorder you've got to work with someone who's anxiety disorder informed. I agree um I think I'm really important that's really important. Don't get me wrong you probably get stuff out of therapy because your your life isn't just an anxiety disorder. There's many things that happen in your life your whole person. Yeah your whole person yeah but if it's um about this and about what we propagate for disorder anxiety then yeah always recommend working with someone who's anxiety disorder informed usually people trained in third wave CBT ACT uh metacognitive therapy things like that. But yeah why not communicate that with your therapist actually I think I'm you know I I may be at risk of techniqueifying and using this compulsively when actually I think I need to work with you on trying to trying to be okay with this feeling you know and willfully tolerating it etc yeah I mean the idea re the thought reframe reframing is a valuable tool I think reframing a negative thought into a positive thought that can be a thing that you want to bring up maybe in your next session like trying to wrestle my thoughts into positive ones isn't really helpful for me but the reframe how I'm gonna respond to that thought oh I'm thinking I'm having a scary thought again I'm reacting to that those are can be helpful things just not trying to wrestle them into positive thoughts that doesn't work because when you're anxious you're gonna feel more distant from the positive thought it's gonna feel worse. So you know oh think think of your best friend when you're anxious no I just still feel anxious and now I kind of associate my friend feeling anxious you know I don't really want to do that. Um just allowing it to be then let it float off in its own way I don't without knowing more we can't really do that. But have a chat with your therapist and to be honest if you have a good connection with them and they're a good therapist they'll listen you can work together.

SPEAKER_03 41:15

If the connection isn't there then I you know recommend maybe searching for someone who's who's informed they probably want to hear it a good therapist would want to hear that feedback. Yes yeah they're not you're not challenging them or disrespecting them they probably want to hear I would want to hear it. If I'm doing something that isn't really working for you not sure let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Yeah absolutely totally fine good question the others got one more in the bank let's do it um I have agoraphobia and bad anxiety most days and nights I often feel the urge to go and do something that will give me a normal adrenaline rush like jet skiing getting a tattoo or driving a supercar. Not in an intrusive thought way but more just to feel adrenaline in the right way. Is this common normal would this actually help recovery? Your podcast has really helped me recently thank you so much that's a really interesting question. Yeah it is interesting isn't it um sure answer yeah I think it would but adrenaline rushes are not special outside of those things it's your interpretation of them yeah yes you you don't fear the adrenaline rushes because you know why you're getting one in a super fast car or jet skiing or or or doing adrenaline junky activities. Now you need to realize that actually getting an adrenaline rush not doing those things because I'm in the middle of an anxiety cycle is physiologically the same thing. So yeah I think it's okay to practice with those things and then practice without those things and notice the similarities it just feels more intense because you don't have outwards focus or anything for your brain to pin that to the you know the you come up to a hairpin turn doing 100 miles an hour in a supercar you know you're gonna feel those adrenaline whooshes woof you know but when you you know when you're walking around the supermarket trying to buy vegetables it doesn't quite match up that's where you practice so yeah I mean no harm in doing that go at also go have fun.

SPEAKER_03 43:14

Oh yeah I mean it would do do those things for fun for sure I would suggest that like first of all is it common yeah you're trying to think of ways to recover totally common it's a good thing you're trying to figure it out for yourself which is fine. But if you're thinking well I have a problem with feelings of adrenaline rush in the supermarket like Josh was saying so let me go get in a jet ski I would suggest well go get an a jet ski if you like the jet ski but go to the supermarket like don't use the jet ski as a way to overcome the supermarket panic. Go to the supermarket and panic there probably more valuable from a recovery standpoint.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Put it lower down on your exposure ladder. Yeah can put it as part of it you know also it's just fun. Go have fun. Oh yeah mix it up though if you like doing those things God speed to you love it. If you often get the urge then go do it for fun. Yeah sure uh thank you very much as always Drew and thank you again to all those that have pre-ordered and how's it make you feel once again if you pre-order it email me your proof of purchase I will answer any question you want.

SPEAKER_03 44:14

Yeah and we're we're recording in December of 2023 so just keep that in mind if you're listening two years from now you might not get a personal response from Josh because the book's been out but uh I will put a link at uh disorder.fm slash 41 to the pre-order if you want it. And while you're there you can send us a voicemail or an email I did it anyway or a question. Yeah disordered.fm absolutely check it out we'll see you guys next week thanks for all the support the reviews the kind words we'll be back