Doing ... And NOT Doing ... In Anxiety Recovery (Episode 107)

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hi, I just had a quick question. My name is Jessica. You can use my name with Did It Anyways and enjoying time to yourself. And in particular, I usually am a homebody. I like to be at home and watch movies and stay in bed all day. But since I've been resensitized in my disordered state and I'm constantly ruminating, I started to kind of throw myself into outdoor activities that, you know, I just thought would help me stay distracted. But I was just curious if um the did it anyway is actually to be staying at home and and watching movies and trying to disconnect that way and get in touch with things that I generally enjoy. So um I was again just curious the difference between if it's a did-it-anyway to be at home, relaxed, in bed all day, or if it's a did it anyway to go do stuff that I wouldn't normally do. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 107 of the podcast entitled Doing and Not Doing. Today we're going to talk about sometimes you've got to do things in anxiety recovery, and sometimes you have to not do things in anxiety recovery. It's a good topic. Thank you for the question. Uh I am Drew Linsalana. I am a therapist practicing in the area of anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York, in the state of New York, in the country of the United States, in the Northern Hemisphere. Anyway, also a uh three-time author on this topic, uh, podcaster, social media dude, psychoeducator, former sufferer, much better now. And I'm joined as always by my esteemed co-host in the UK.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

Hi, everyone. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist and author based in the UK. I know, yeah. I thought I needed to come back. Uh um, I love being co-host of this podcast and previous sufferer and like combining heads with someone very similar to me, uh, who's been through it, who's been anxious, and you know, we're professionals, trained, got there, and do our best to convey, you know, what we feel is is the way to get better, like we did, and through our own work. So, yeah, thanks for the question, Sender in it. It was a really good one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 2:13

It was a good question. You know, you know what I really want to say, really quick before we get into the topic, if you're listening, and this is like your first time, there are three things you need to know. You are not broken, like this is not an insurmountable problem, even though you think it might be. Like sometimes you just need a little bit of cheerleading to get you to do hard things. And like, there is so much data underneath all this. We're not just making stuff up. Like, we're talking about stuff that's been going on for decades and decades. So even though you might feel like you're doomed at the moment and you're never gonna get better, that might not necessarily be true. Like, just wanted to throw that out there. We never say that. Maybe we should.

SPEAKER_03 2:47

Yeah, you know me. I love compassion stuff stuff. You're the values guy, I'm the compassion guy. So it's really refreshing to hear you start with a compassionate note. I'm really smart. Um, I think Drew was visited by three uh ghosts last night in his sleep. One of which was Carl Rogers, the other one was just gonna throw it out there.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

I don't think we say that stuff enough.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

But uh good question. So, like, yeah, I I get it. There's a lot of people think that when they're anxious, you know, they they they avoid and they stay inside, and the outside's scary, and and stuff, things like that. But what I love about this, and the we're gonna hark back to episode 25, which is a long time ago, called, you know, do what non-anxious you would do. The question sender in and it said, Well, actually, a lot of my life I used to enjoy being at home. You know, I'm uh I like being at home. That's how I want to live my life. That's great. You know, we always talk about doing what non-anxious you would do, and this applies to people that you know, okay, you don't have to go and jump out of an airplane or absail down a building and all that to prove you've overcome anxiety. Some of the greatest joy is for some people chilling at home. It certainly is for me in the evenings. Put crap TV on and chill out, and I find that really enjoyable. So, yeah, a did it anyway isn't just doing all these things. Did it any a did it anyway applies to anything where you feel uncomfortable and you're willfully tolerating the symptoms and the uncertainty and the thoughts to teach the brain, namely the amygdala, that this is okay. I don't want to be scared of this anymore.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Maybe it's it could be a did it anyway, or it could be a didn't do it anyway. So, you know, it was pretty interesting. The the main thing uh when I think she said it was okay to use a name that Jessica was talking about was, you know, ruminating all the time. And then she said, I throw I'm throwing myself into a bunch of activities to see if I could distract myself. So I think those would be the clues in that particular case. And this is not all that uncommon. We often talk about people who would prefer to stay home. They want idle time, they want no demands to do things on themselves because they feel that's safer. But there's probably maybe it's not 50-50, but I bet it's at least 35% of our audience would have this problem. We're like, no, no, no, no. If I sit quietly, if I'm idle, now I have a problem because the rumination gets really loud and I just sit all day and I loop through and I and I have conversations in my own head about stuff that I can't figure out, can't solve, can't answer, but I keep doing it anyway. Then I get super anxious. So sometimes it's about you know, people don't like that quiet time. So they try to distract with some throwing into activities, and that's what it sounds like.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

Yeah, and also sounds a bit like maybe our friend Craig the Critics jumped in and you uh misinterpreting what exposure and anxiety recovery is. If sitting at home, something that you used to enjoy is something that actually makes you scared now, then yes, the exposure starts there. Relearn and reteach the brain. Actually, I want this again, I want this back, and I know what it's like. Drew knows what it's like. All my life I've sat there and I watch movies, play video games, whatever. But you know you're in a sensitized state when you sat there and you're not even watching the movie because you're in your head, you're ruminating, you're scanning what's that symptom, you're doing that, you're you're playing out a scenario in your mind that hasn't happened and probably never will happen. But because your threat response is firing off, it feels real. You feel like you have to analyze it, yeah. And and the day's gone by, and yes, it just feels like you're going through the motions, but actually the exposure is oh, I've got to not do like Drew says, I've got to sit here and not compulse, not go inwards, catch myself ruminating. And I like that whole idea of you know, I didn't do it anyway, not doing it anyway. Yeah, you know, actually, I 51% of my attention at least was on the this documentary that I've always wanted to watch, you know, and yeah, okay. Sometimes through habit, you will go inwards and you'll fall into old habits. And that's why I always say start with 51. If you do 51, some solid, solid brain rewiring.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Yeah. If you're in the didn't do it anyway camp, which again is many of our listeners, you know, for the person who's like, oh, I have to go out and walk to the mailbox or I have to drive in the highway, well, that's my exposure. Like, okay, we kind of would see what that looks like mechanically or with techniques, even though we're not trying to use techniques there, but not doing it anyway also has mechanics. So you the example was like, Well, yeah, my all if I sit idly, then all my mind wants to do is think and and not just have thoughts, it wants to think. So it will make thoughts, but it wants me to think, which is two different things. I'm gonna, it wants me to actively engage in internal conversations and dialogue that never go anywhere. And they're either, you know, safety seeking or problem solving that doesn't actually work, and then I feel worse. So, in that situation, the documentary that Josh is talking about, you might have it on and like, well, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna try and watch this while my mind just wants me to hit the stop button and come back inside and have a conversation with myself. And you might lose seven, eight, 10 minutes of that documentary. Stop, rewind it, go back, see what you missed. Like the practice is I understand what's happening right now. You have to start to learn to watch that machine. Like my mind is making thoughts, they seem of an urgent nature, they're all catastrophic or distorted in nature. It wants me to kind of converse about it, and it got my attention. So thank you, amygdala. But like, I'm gonna go back and try to check out the seven minutes I just missed of this film, and I'm I'm gonna try and see what was going on there. Now, that seems so mundane and boring and ridiculous. Like, well, how is that gonna get me better? But just like you can learn that I can be anxious on the highway, you can learn that I can be anxious on my sofa and I don't have to fix it. Same thing. And the mechanics of that I think are confusing to people. Not doing it means like you not turning your mind off, but recognizing when your mind is hooking you in and then unhooking the Russ Harris stuff and and moving somewhere else. That's that MCT stuff that like Rihanna was talking about when she was on the podcast. What can I do besides ruminating while my mind wants me to?

SPEAKER_03 9:28

Absolutely. I remember um it was last week talking of machines. I was loading the dishwasher. I mean, if you thought this podcast couldn't get any more exciting, prepare yourself for an anecdote about me loading the dishwasher. Um and I was loading the dishwasher, and during this, I I caught myself, I was laughing, I was loading it up, and I was I was imagining, daydreaming, fantasizing, whatever, that I was the captain of a football team, and I was one goal away from breaking the record, but it was my last day, and we got a penalty, and I was about to take the penalty, and then I started getting really invested in my own righteousness within this daydream, where instead of taking the penalty and breaking the record and making it all about me, I pass the ball to the new recruit, a young lad who's had a difficult upbringing, and I say, I don't need to take this penalty, and then it gave it him and it makes his day. I was doing this while loading up the washing machine and giving myself a pat on the back by for how great I was being. But the reason I bring that up is that I also remember a time when there was I was loading the dishwasher in the midst of being sensitized, and I was doing things like trying to be mindful. So like, and what I'd do is that I'd put I'd put the dish in, I'll put a few in, and I'd stop ruminating for about 10 seconds, and then I'd be like, Is that mindfulness work yet? Am I am I any less calm now? You know, and suddenly what loading the dishwasher was uh was now autopilot because I was just enjoying a daydream in my brain, something that sensitized people have forgotten about. You know, you know you're doing all right with anxiety when you're just daydreaming alone because your brain's just going off. Yeah, but the reason it was that I was in order to load a dishwasher again and to not obsess and cycle in the in the sensitized state, was that it required a lot of not doing it anyways. So not checking, not checking how I feel during loading the dishwasher. Actually, loading the dishwasher whilst feeling anxious, watching documentaries whilst feeling anxious and uncertain, and reframing it so powerfully that nope, this is my homework, this is what I'm supposed to be doing. Uh, and doing that over and over again really helped. And then that allowed the brain to just go into daydream territory, which um yeah, which which are a place that I really enjoy. Oh, by the way, the end of the anecdote was that the youngster missed the penalty, and then no one won. And actually, I was then criticized in the local papers for not stepping up and taking the penalty where we could have won the game, and I was accused of being a self-righteous knob. Um, and then I finished loading the dishwasher.

SPEAKER_04 12:16

Hmm.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

He missed the shot, nobody won. They burned the town down. It was not a good outcome in the end.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

Yeah, and actually I ended up hating the and resenting the youngster for missing the penalty. You I gave you this shot and you wasted it. What's wrong with you anyway? Your daydreams are very detailed. I appreciate them.

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Yeah, they honestly they get weird. They're quite like them. Cool. So if you were loading the dishwasher back in the day when you were really struggling, like what is not doing it anyway? Like, okay, I loaded the dishwasher instead of sat on the sofa. So cool, I did it anyway. Then while I'm loading the dishwasher, now I have to not do it anyway. So, what do you think that would have looked like? Oh, that's a tough one, right? You got to think back to like what kind of thoughts you might have had, what were you feeling in your body? What would loading the dishwasher have looked like that would be different? How would you have done that?

SPEAKER_03 13:12

It's interesting because I've loaded the dishwasher as a means to try and distract myself from anxiety, yep. Uh, which is not which is okay. I'm not running away from it. If I if I was just sitting there ruminating, I might say, you know what, let's do something productive, you know, and load the dishwasher. Sure. Uh, did I sprint to the dishwasher to load it up and distract myself? No.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Right.

SPEAKER_03 13:35

Um, the not doing is catching myself going inwards, inwards compulsion. Uh the not doing for me would be can I load all of this dishwasher whilst feeling anxious?

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

Which is a complete contrast to and it was that was the goal. It was like a game. If you're like me and you want to gamify your exposures, which I love by the way, which maybe do an episode on that. Yeah, uh, I gamify my exposures. Like, how long can I tolerate this for doing this? That is the antithesis of has it gone yet? Is doing what is I'm doing what non-anxious me is doing, but is it gone yet? Is it gone yet? Those little check-in compulsions were the difference. Whereas I'd be like, Yes, I'd probably fall into that habit. You know, the fifth ball's gone in, you know, and I'm like, okay, uh, right. Oh no, the aim is to do this whilst anxious. Okay, okay, cool, cool. So stop checking, Josh. It doesn't matter, you know. Let's see how much you can do. That that was really effective, and applying that constantly is is the secret source. Yeah, that's pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

I I I think what did that look like for me? It felt to me like a roll of the dice a little bit, like I had to recognize. Oh, I I I started to recognize, oh, I see what I'm doing here. I I see what I'm doing here. I just felt a little twinge in my rib or something near my rib. And now I am super focused on that. I remember literally having this conversation with myself while I was trying to not do it anyway. Because the doing in that situation would have been I would have started poking, I would have started stretching to make sure it went away so that I knew it wasn't an internal problem of some kind. It was just a muscle. I would think about it, like, what could that have been? No, I'm pretty young, I'm healthy. No. The question then I would have to catch that, and it would be, oh, I know what's going on here. I just felt something that scares me. And so I'm gonna have to keep raking these leaves and roll the dice that I don't die. But I know I'm not, but I do understand that like I'm really scared right now, but I but I can't make being scared the most important thing. I have to try and break. Can I?

SPEAKER_03 15:42

That's so important, and it reminds me of a written Did It Anyway that I and this just follows on beautifully. Okay. I really love this one. Uh you've not heard it yet either. I have not. This is new. Hi, Drew and Josh. I'm Sophie, and you can use my name. I just wanted to share my Did It Anyway so it can help anyone else out there who never thinks they will make progress with their anxious thoughts. My stress drug was reasonably full as a result of the death of my brother, my mum, and the ongoing illness of my son who has schizophrenia as a result of an extremely premature birth. For him, the last 14 years have been a revolving door of illness, sectioning, and hospitalization. However, the tipping point for me came when the sudden and unexpected death of my husband 10 years ago. My anxiety skyrocketed in the form of extreme and debilitating health anxiety. I was honestly convinced I was going to die at any moment, and I became obsessed that every single anomaly was cancer. I was literally continuously terrified and could not go for routine tests or anywhere near a doctor's surgery or hospital. I had EMDR, therapy, etc. Then the worst thing for me happened. I had to go to the GP for a health concern, and I was suddenly fast-tracked through the two-week cancer referral window. My stress jug overflowed, and I broke down to a point where I had to be escorted to the appointment by my sister in tears and panic. Anyway, I did it, and all was well. And in fact, I had I had ended up having a whole summer of various tests that I had put off for years for all sorts of things. A dermatology appointment, a smear test, a CA125 test, a hearing test, an eye test, a bowel cancer test, which I literally was planning my funeral for, and finally getting my dodgy hip looked at. I'm in no way recovered, and I still fear fear of over anything health related. But my new approach is to practice willful tolerance and try to do these things anyway, and this year I really do feel a little better. I must totally thank you both for what you do. I listen to your podcast on the four-hour round trip to visit my son in hospital. I've been a lifesaver, and I no longer feel alone.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Good job, Sophie. How good is that? I mean, that is somebody carrying a lot too. So, like, I'm glad she noticed that my stress jug is full. And what's the not doing it part, do you think, for her in that one?

SPEAKER_03 18:19

The not doing it is uh is is doing the scary things, a lot of them, and then one acknowledging, oh wow, more you know, I'm not pouring all my energy into avoiding those things. Um so the not doing avoidance, but it's also I get the sense after doing the scary things, there's a there's almost like a oh yeah, I I've noticed now that all those kind of inwards things that weren't helping me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, did you notice any not doing?

SPEAKER_02 18:48

Yeah, I I was thinking the same thing. It's interesting because sometimes this is nuanced. Sometimes you're doing, sometimes you're not doing. Sometimes the doing gives you the lessons or the experience that you need to recognize when you need to be not doing. Yeah. So, and it's interesting because, oh, you know what? This just popped into my head. This is very typical, I think, in our, you know, in our audience, people that the population we deal with. It's I want to willfully tolerate. So I hear Claire Weeks, you know, float, accept, surrender, willful tolerance, whatever. I'm supposed to do hard things, I gotta face the fear. And then they do that. So it's like it did it anyway. But at the same time, they're also doing the other stuff that they have to remove when they're doing it anyway. So I'm doing it anyway, but also at the same time, I'm I'm looping through and talking. It's not, it's okay, it's okay. It's like this isn't the, you know, and they're doing that whole thing. So it's the it's the acceptance and control at the same time. Sometimes the doing tells you that I didn't have to do any of those things. So when Sophie unfortunately had to go for those tests that she was clearly terrified, and and we get that her sister has to bring her. She can't save herself from it. And so the experience has to be like, whoa, I was sure that I couldn't do this, but I did. So maybe I don't have to keep looping through the catastrophe again and again and again. Or after the event, doing the whole like that was awful. Oh my God, I never want to do that again. I I can't believe I made it. I barely made it. I almost passed out. Like, then you have to go into not doing, which, like, no, no, no. I I have to stop having that conversation in my head. So I think not doing could be behavioral, but I I think a lot of times the not doing is checking what's happening up here. I'm pointing my head. For those of you who don't see video, which is all of you, because we never post video. So it's yeah, that's the not doing there.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Good because they might see my uh unshaven bear torso while I'm sipping this mojito.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

I promise I am not looking at Josh's bear torso right now.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

My eyes are up here, Drew.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Oh my goodness. We always grow, of course, at some point, but uh yeah, not doing what about behavioral not doing? What do you we're talking a lot about like cognitive and mental not doing? What do you think behavioral?

SPEAKER_03 21:05

I mean I think well, I just think I I I always frame it as behavioral cognitive. It's the same thing. It's like the kind of in in this context, yep. You know, if your attention is your behavior, that's what I think. Like when you're paying attention to something, that that's that is a behavior. And yes, okay, you might be, you know, ruminating is thinking, but it's also behavior. You know, I often used to Joe, what are you doing tonight? I'm gonna sit in a dark room and ruminate. It's a behavior, you know, it's the kind of thing, and um yes, the not doing it's basically not doing anything that teaches the brain that these feelings, the uncertainty, and the symptoms are okay. And even okay for now. So a lot of people, the health anxiety and stuff, they'll often say, Yeah, but how how do you know it's okay? I'll say, Well, it's okay for now. If it's 3 a.m. and you've got a pain pain in your side, but you can breathe, you can blink, you can walk. Around everything's all right. You don't need to run to the hospital. You know, it's okay for now.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

You know, okay. And then your rational brain might take over at some point and go, Yeah, you've had that pain for a while now. What you know, when you go to the doctor or something, then that's completely fine. It's that urgency where you feel like you're looking after yourself and you're not.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Yeah. Be not doing sometimes the not doing when could be even really small. Like, oh, I've started to notice that one of the things this was big for me. I had so many little, I don't know what the word, I wouldn't call them ticks because that's kind of a technical term, but like they were little body language things that I was always doing. I was always poking at my chest. I was always had my always had my hand on my my artery, like checking my pulse. I would tug in my ear. Yeah, the little ones I'm not doing.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Yeah, yeah, they're not doing that.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

So I had not doing wins where I was like, no, put your hands down in the car, especially. The not doing was like, hands on the wheel, dude. Like, I don't have to do that. Those were hard to not do because my brain had developed those habits and like, no, no, those are safety things. That makes me somehow feel but it's just trying to get away from the feeling, is all it was. But sometimes not doing could be as simple as for the next five minutes, I'm gonna sit with my hands, you know, in my lap on my or on the sofa. I'm gonna I'm sitting on the sofa, I'm trying to read, and all I'm doing is fidgeting like crazy. And I noticed that. So can I sit still for just a minute or two while I read this book?

SPEAKER_03 23:22

That's a win. It's important as well, though. Because of habit, you will find yourself going into those compulsions, but just notice it with curiosity, yeah. And instead, rather than beating yourself up, oh, I can't do this, I keep doing it. No, just be like, ah, well done. I've caught myself doing that back here again. Even that's really good for rewiring the brain, and this particularly applies to the question sender in it. What was what was the name again?

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Uh Jessica.

SPEAKER_03 23:50

Jessica, yeah. It particularly applies to Jessica, where it's like if a lot of your things that you want to do are at home and you and you've kind of lost contact with that, then yeah, your exposure starts with the not doing. Look at look at the difference. What are you doing differently now, Jessica? Compared to when you sat and watched TV and enjoyed. And I'm presuming it's TV. You might not even have a TV, there are assumptions. Well, she does say she likes it. Maybe maybe you're a taxidermist and just stuff raccoons all day. I don't know. But let's just say it's TV and you find that you can't enjoy it. Don't let Craig the critic be like, Oh, you know, you need to fix yourself. Look, you can't even enjoy the show. No, the exposure is ah, I've noticed that the difference between now and back when I wasn't sensitized is that a lot of my attention is inwards. I'm fixing the little things that Drew said, and I need to work on the not doing here because they're keeping me sensitized. So this does require a bit of patience and compassion to relearn that I can switch off and watch TV or stuff a raccoon again.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

That's right. Yeah, I'm pretty sure she's she's just stuffing raccoons all day long. I'm reasonably sure. If we email her, she'll confirm that. That's that was really good. That was really good. Because, like, okay, if you are struggling with the not doing instead of I have to go out and do a driving exposure, no, I have to learn to sit at home and watch a movie again. What did it used to look like? If it if you used to sit on the sofa and just sit on the sofa and watch the movie, okay, cool. Maybe eat some popcorn or whatever, like that's what it has to start to look like again. If now, and then what does it look like now? Oh, I'm sitting on the sofa, but I'm I'm constantly fidgeting, or I have my the movie is on, and also I'm scrolling TikTok again and Instagram, all my anxiety stuff to see, you know, no, no, no, no, I gotta put that down. Like, I I didn't used to do that.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

Why is it so important that what non-anxious you would do? Ask yourself, would non-anxious me be doing this right now? No, right. So, yes, on uh as a flyer, if I if I peer through your window, yes, you you sat, you're eight o'clock, you're watching friends, and yeah, you do that every night. But actually, on a micro level or a subtle level, non-anxious you would be sitting there watching the show and enjoying it or whatever. Yep, but now look what's happening. Yeah, like Drew said, you've got your phone in your hand, you you sat differently, your posture is completely different. Yeah, you know, you've got uh lavender oil on on there and you're doing these things and you're checking your pulse, yeah. And you're doing these things, and then every and then even cognitively with your attention, you're you're inwards, you know that so and this is really important. And if you this does resonate with you, go and listen back to must be a year and a half ago now, episode 25. What would non-anxious you would do? It's so important, it's not just turning up to the music gig because non-anxious you would do it. What would non-anxious you be doing at the music gig? Yeah, you know, would your back be pressed up against the fire escape, you know, sipping water? You know, no, it wouldn't. Non-anxious you would be in the middle of the mosh pit, even though it's a gig for 10-year-olds, and everyone's concerned about the in which case you're dominating the mosh pit.

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Just or you know, the other thing that starts to look like for some people is yes, I'm sitting and I'm trying to watch this movie or listen to this move, you know, music or whatever it is. I'm trying to do a non-anxion, but at the same time, I'm also compulsively doing four, seven, eight breathing or box breathing, or like I'm I'm constantly doing that. I'm constantly trying to control my internal state. Like, that's not the way you used to listen to music. So, like, what would happen if you took the risk? For me, it was roll the dice. You know, what if I roll the dice and don't do this? What if I don't pay attention? What if I turn my attention back to the rake? As I'm there, was I remember specifically a raking leaves incident. That's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_03 27:49

Oh, is this is this your dishwasher equipment?

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Yeah, yes. It's a little, I do remember, and I hate raking leaves, by the way. So it was a double whammy, but like I was raking leaves, and I'm like, no, no, what if I just pay attention to the next five strokes of the leaves instead of the stroke that I insist is happening in my brain right now, which never is. Oh, it's poetic. Oh, that I remember thinking that, and it just felt like, okay, like here we go. Like, I hope I survived the next 10 seconds, and and then I did. So the same thing. Like, what if I don't try to control how I feel while I try and watch this movie? What if I feel any way I need to feel while I watch that movie? It's hard, really hard. But over time, the not doing the control stuff starts to teach you those lessons too.

SPEAKER_03 28:30

So it's so it's so important as well, not trying to control how you feel because immediately some people be like, Well, I'm doing what non-anxious me was doing, and I'm not trying to control how I feel as I'm watching my favorite show. Yep, but I don't feel like myself. And here's the trap that a lot of people fall into. You think when you're in a sensitized state, that if you do not feel like yourself, you are failing in some way. Yeah, it's not willful. That's the homework. That is willful tolerance right there. So if you've got the one who's got Craig the critic, oh, this doesn't work, I don't feel like myself. No, that comes with time and patience. And when you've taught the threat response to shut up, you will then start feeling like yourself again.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Yeah, it's not working. It I it doesn't, it wasn't working. I didn't, I tried to do it, but it felt so weird. I know it was supposed to feel weird. One of the things I often give my therapy clients to do is like a little, and this is gonna take a left turn. It is a little morning affirmation, but it's not what you think. It's not like you are strong, you are powerful, you can handle this, you are loved. I mean, yeah, maybe they might use those, but also I am probably going to be uncomfortable today. That's a good place to start your day because as opposed to like, oh, I hope that that would be a didn't do it anyway. Like I did not start the day spending 10 minutes hoping with my fingers and toes crossed, like trying to will my way into a calm day, and then by 7:30, I'm not calm and it's over. That's it. See, it doesn't work. Like, no, no, no, I will probably be uncomfortable at least once today.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

You hear that a lot, don't you? Like a lot of people they wake up in the morning and they often say, Oh, how am I gonna get through the day? Right. But no, the reframe is I'll probably feel anxious today. Let's see how well I can do it. Yeah, for now, such a powerful one. And it's probably doesn't mean you will, you might just have a great day.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Maybe you will, yeah. And then that's a bonus. But like the the realization that, like, well, at the moment I have an anxiety problem right for now, and I'm working on it, which means I'll probably be uncomfortable. I might be anxious, I might panic, I might be really afraid today. I expect those things to happen. If they don't, then great, awesome. But as opposed to like, oh, it's see, I the anxiety started popping. I was great until 10:30, and then suddenly I got really anxious again. Like, what can you give me a what did I do wrong? Well, nothing. Like, did you exp you're an anxious person right now?

SPEAKER_03 30:51

Didn't do anything wrong. Yeah, you you you're working on desensitization, yeah. So it doesn't just switch, it's not a switch. Yep, you know, it's it's continuous, and then you know, one one state outweighs the other.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

Uh I will need the limiter effect on that one. Okay. I can just say there was no tenuous link to that. I just wanted to press it. That was fine. I would leave it in there, but yeah, and in that situation, the not doing would be I have to start my day recognizing that all I want to do is try to control how I feel. I'm not going to do that today. I'm going to try my best to back out of that routine every time I catch myself in it. That's not doing, and that's when that's a win.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

So do or don't do, did it anyway or not? Didn't do it anyway. Didn't do it anyway. So that's that is a wordy one, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. But we hope that helps you answer the question. And uh, we hope that um, you know, if that did resonate with you, that that helped. Yeah. Um, have we got questions and did it anyways?

SPEAKER_02 31:54

I think we have well, we have an audio did it anyway, which I love. So how about we listen to that? And then I think we have at least one one written. So let's see what we got. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Cool. Hey Josh and Drew, my name's Levi, and I've been dealing with panic disorder uh for the past 11 to 12 years, and um I have been prepping a escape room for my daughter's 12th birthday, and was really nervous about having people over and just the anticipation of having to put all this stuff together over the past three months and build the puzzles and stuff myself, and you know, making sure I still have my daughter's respect after this birthday party, and so my anxiety has been sort of through the roof, and I had a friend's funeral just the previous week, and so um I didn't think I was gonna be able to leave the house or do anything for a long time, and I've been listening to y'all's podcast and hearing about all these did it anyways, and never thought I'd be able to call in with one of my own. But um, we had the party, and my daughter really loved it, and you know, has been talking about it ever since, and um I did you know my best to be as present as possible and game master or dungeon master or whatever you call it to help them through with hints and stuff, and uh I really, really uh am proud of myself. Um, I knew I could do it. Um, I'm confident that I can go through anxiety, uh, but man, in the moment, it does not feel like I'm able to do it. It's always while I'm having the anxiety, is the hardest part. So um I just wanted to record this for myself, just to hear myself say these words and um use this as a memento next time I'm feeling this way. Thanks, and keep up all the good work.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

All right, what a what a cool dad. That is awesome. I'd love that you recorded, like Levi, if you're listening, and I hope you are like save this. Like when you are struggling, listen to this, like listen to your own voice. You did it. I did it, even though I thought I wasn't able to.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

Not only did it, but you flourished. You use you use your creative brain, you engaged, you made gave your tour a great birthday party. I mean, that's that's awesome, you know. And you're more capable than what you think, and anxiety always tries to convince you that you don't have the resources to tolerate it, and yet stuff like that happens. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

I think it's really important that you know, so Levi's daughter is thrilled, he's she's talking about the party, she seems like she's super happy with it, which would indicate that with the anxious mind is like, I I barely made it, I barely hung on. But the reality that your senses are giving you from the outside in would be, yeah, but I have a bunch of 12-year-old girls here or 12-year-old kids who are laughing and joking and having a great time, and my daughter gave me a big hug and she keeps talking about her party. So, which one seems right? Everybody else had a great time, but I know the reality that I barely made it, or I can be really anxious and also capable, although not optimal. So yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_03 35:21

God, you you you you've you've put a compassion sandwich in this episode. I'm really I really enjoyed that. Episode one seven, the compassion sandwich. Don't let anxiety steal the narrative.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Yeah, yeah. Let let let reality teach you what's really going on.

SPEAKER_03 35:37

So did you you uh you had a little written did it anyway?

SPEAKER_02 35:40

Written did anyway, like full disclosure, Josh had to uh text it to me, but here we go. Um, we do not know this person's name, which is totally fine. If you're listening, thank you for sending it in. And this person says, it's a small thing, but I've been struggling with rumination and panic for about six months now, ever since my first panic attack in September of last year. I went to a basketball game with my best friend. It was at our old high school, and I was getting very panicking about panicky about being out socially. It turns out that once I got there, all of my old teachers recognized me and said hi. I felt at ease once the game started, and I very much enjoyed myself. I would have never imagined doing something like this just a few months ago. Woohoo! Awesome.

SPEAKER_03 36:23

Good job on that. I like that. And again, an example of our anxiety, anticipatory anxiety. Well, something that's gonna happen. Uh, much like um, you know, trying to plan a 12-year-old party and you're not gonna cope and you you're not capable. And yet look at what happened. There's always that shock, which which Drew loves. You're like, oh, oh wow, it was more capable than I thought. Who knew? Who saw that coming?

SPEAKER_02 36:50

One cool thing I think this highlights is, you know, if you're listening right now and you have that what about, yeah, but and you want to do that. What about yeah, but what about? What does it say when this person was convinced there was no way they were going to be able to handle this? And the minute, like their old English teacher was like, Hey, how are you doing? Like, really, the thing that was super urgent and so important and incredibly dangerous and catastrophic was super easily distracted when, like, you know, Mrs. Jones from 10th grade English was like, Hey, great to see you. And then all of a sudden you settle down. You know, I try and point that out all the time. Like, really? So anxiety and that irrational fear will tell you, like, no, no, no, but but but this is so important that I can't, I can't let go, but I can't let go because I just have this fear. But what if I do have a psychotic break? And then your, you know, your high school social studies teacher says hello and suddenly you're feeling good in 10 minutes later, it's also the not doing as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Yeah, like you you got there because you're probably compulsively ruminating, worrying, scanning, checking anxiety, checking panic, watching the visual catastrophes in your mind that you're gonna get to the basketball game and freak out and you know, start you know, pushing everyone out of the way. And yet the moment you started engaging socially with your old teachers and your friend, or engaging with the game itself, which you chose to do, your anxiety came down. So, yeah, you it was both I did it anyway and a not doing.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Yeah, it's really good. I mean, there's literally a fire burning, a basketball game doesn't put the fire out. But if the fire is only in your mind, and then a little bit of distraction pulls you away from it, what does that tell you about the what you don't understand? It's what if it I know, but look how easily you were distracted. So if that's ever happened to you like this, take a lesson from that. What kind of protective mechanism gets easily distracted by a a baloney sandwich? But it's so true.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

Yeah, it's so true, isn't it? Yeah, you can get easily distracted from yeah, yeah. That that's that's that's not so good. We have a problem with baloney sandwiches on here.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

Keep coming back to bologna sandwiches. I know if you work for Boars Head or like a baloney company, we're sorry, we're not trying to pick on you.

SPEAKER_03 38:58

Or you really no, if you work for Boars, uh we don't have sponsors on this podcast, but we I'm willing to make an exception.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

Hey, Boars Head, give us a call now that you've gotten a listeria out of your baloney. A lifetime supply of baloney. What do you guys get out of this podcast? Bolognay. Oh, I hear you. We do it every week anyway. Got anything else? Do we have any others or are we good to go?

SPEAKER_03 39:19

No, that's good. Thank you, Drew, and thank you for everyone for tuning in. Thanks for the data, anyways. You can send in questions and did it anyways at disordered.fm. Uh, big thank you for the recent uh podcast reviews, they're really helpful. And if you just have a spare 10 seconds, we'd really appreciate uh a review on whatever you listen to us on. You can find us on social media at anxietyjosh or at the.anxious.truth. Uh or you can just catch us every Friday doing what we love to do.

SPEAKER_02 39:50

Yeah, thanks for listening. If you don't have time to write a review, at least send us a bologna sandwich.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

Oh, in an envelope.