But What About ...? Applying General Principles in Anxiety Recovery (EP 69)

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Unless you specifically speak about my specific thing, does it apply to me?

SPEAKER_03 0:08

The principles always apply, but they look different depending on how your anxiety presents. You know, if you've got anxiety, you can have infinite thoughts and infinite fears. But when you stick to the principles, you've got something to latch on to.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

But if you can learn to generalize the principles and connect to them, you'd have an easier time applying them to your own particular struggle. I'm trying to fix my feeling. I gotta not fix it. Whatever way you're doing that, I gotta start to drop that fixing thing. I am trying to not feel a certain way. I need to get away from these feelings, be they physical or thoughts or emotions. Then that gives you the principle to apply.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

Do the opposite of what the misfiring threat response wants you to do.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 69 of the podcast entitled, But What About? I'm Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist in training specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York. I am clearly a podcaster because I'm co-hosting this one. I'm an author on the topic of anxiety and anxiety disorders, social media guy, advocate, educator, former sufferer of panic disorder, agoraphobia, OCD depression for many years of my life on and off, but doing better now, and co-hosting with this guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

Hi, I'm uh Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in the world of anxiety and anxiety disorders. Previous sufferer based in Manchester in the UK and author of the book, and how does it make you feel?

SPEAKER_01 1:34

And a happily England fan after the big comeback in the 90th minute.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Oh, don't get me started on that. I just want to rally up 95th minute. That's enough to uh say, yeah, insane. Let's not go into that.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

It was fun. Anyway, today we're gonna talk about what, but what about the title? But what about? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 1:53

Um, it's it reminds me of Michael Jackson's Earth song, which we were listening to as we were prepping. Sunshine, what about rain? What yeah, you get it. Uh, but it applies to anxiety disorders, people struggling with anxiety disorders, because obviously the central tenet of anxiety is doubt, and a lot of people have their own specific thoughts and feelings and and conceptualizations of what their anxiety is. And one of, if not the most common thing I read and hear, I don't know about you, Drew, is but what about insert my problem?

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Yeah, uh this is a episode about generalizing the principles of recovery, which is very difficult for anxious people to do. And listen, I get that, because we get so like fused with our own particular special problem that we can hear things like this podcast and and similar resources, but still, unless you specifically, Josh and Drew, speak about my specific thing, I I'm not sure that I understand that it doesn't apply to me. And the answer is yes, it does. And that's good news. And it's not anybody's fault that they have a hard time generalizing the principles. But if you can learn to generalize the principles and and connect to them, you'd have an easier time applying them to your own particular struggle, I think. It would be helpful.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Yeah, and because it's also like um like a one person, one item toolkit for every time more doubts appear. Because you know, if you've got anxiety, you can have infinite thoughts and infinite fears. Uh, but when you stick to the principles, and we'll go over them today, you know, it you can you've got something to latch on to. Now, don't get me wrong, I do like talking about specific things because it's nice to feel seen. So if you've been struggling for a long time with particular intrusive thoughts, particular doubts. I know we had some feedback from the relationship OCD episode, um, because that can be very tricky. Yes, we'll always talk about that and step into your phenomenology for a bit and help you to feel seen. But this episode would be a reminder of kind of what what to lean back on when you are in the midst of doubt. Um, talking of that and following from last episode, last week's episode on heat anxiety, we had a solid did it anyway. Should we uh celebrate that before we kick on? I think we should start with that. So let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 4:21

Hi, Josh and Drew. I just wanted to share my I Did It Anyway, inspired by your latest podcast about heat anxiety. I just got done walking in a Fourth of July parade in the sun and the heat uh with my two girls. Uh before we started, you know, I was having the usual thoughts about like I can't handle this heat. What if something happens to me? Um, I was super focused on how I was feeling, but then I wanted to live by my values and I wanted to experience um this parade with my girls and just enjoy it and be grateful that for the opportunity to spend that time with my kids. And so I did it, and it was really hot and sunny, and I don't feel great now, but I did it anyway, and I'm okay. So thank you so much for all that you do and for your latest podcast that inspired me.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

Yes, get in. Well done, brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Applause from the studio audience, well deserved.

SPEAKER_03 5:27

Buy your values as well, lovely day with your daughters. Um, just well done, really well done.

SPEAKER_01 5:33

I like the I did it. I don't feel great, but I did it. So important. So important. Yeah. And you know what? It's nice to feel great, but sometimes we don't, and we have to be able to deal with that. So well done. Yeah, yeah, well done. Yeah. Um, so let's talk a little bit out. We have a bunch of questions we're gonna use to sort of illustrate this, like, but what about? Like, I can't, I'm having a hard time generalizing what you talked about. You talked about, you know, relationship OCD, and I'm having a hard time generalizing the principles to my GAD or my intrusive thoughts or whatever it is. So we have a couple of questions. Here is one, I'm not gonna read them entirely because otherwise we'll be here all day. But um I don't know if I can use these names because they didn't say it. But this person was talking about uh how she loved our our episodes about panic disorder because she deals with that, but she also has GAD, and so she got discouraged when she heard our GAD episodes because she thought we were contradicting the panic disorder stuff, because in her mind, GAD is different. She specifically says, Can you clarify this? Because it's really bothering me. Can we adopt the same principles as surrendering if we have generalized anxiety disorder and panic disorder? Because I find a flip between the two. She sees them as different. Uh, and she also asserts that people with GAD have way more things to consider, which I would that found the most interesting part. And if you sent in that question, I didn't want to say your name because you didn't give me permission. Thank you for asking the question. It helped us formulate this episode. Good good question. Yeah, excellent. Where would you start with that, Drew? I think one of the things, and it's interesting because GAD and health anxiety are the two, I don't know, this is my experience, most dug-in resistant, hard to deal with sometimes forms. Because people with GAD will often say, no, no, no, I don't have that problem. But the principle here is that you do have the problem. And the issue, and I would illustrate that principle by saying if GAD is driven, we define GAD as you know persistent, persevative thinking and rumination and worry. It's basically I'm gonna think, think, think, think, think to try and solve problems that I probably can't solve by thinking. We want to keep doing it anyway until I hate doing that and I'll try and stop, but I can't stop, so I do it again. And so I just amps up my anxiety level all the time. And the principle of we're always talking about tolerance, surrender, la eliminating your avoidance, right? Going toward what you fear to experience that. For a panic disorder person, yes, you might have to go out and walk around the block to intentionally panic to eliminate your avoidance. The avoidance in GAD is the thinking. That's where GAD people get caught up. Like, well, what but if I stop thinking about the problem, aren't I avoiding the problem? No, the problem is that you think you can solve it with thinking. The thinking is the avoidance. The choosing to ruminate and worry and engage in that thought loop, that's the avoidance. So you the principle here is I have to leave those questions unanswered or unasked. And then I feel really bad. I don't like that. Right. Right. Like the panic disorder person has to experience the panic attack. You have to experience that discomfort of what if I don't solve this problem? What if I don't worry? That means I'm a bad parent.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

Yeah. I mean what I would look at is doing, and I always lean on this, is whether you've got GAD or panic disorder, OCD, etc., is do the opposite of what the misfiring threat response wants you to do. So if you've got GAD, the misfiring threat response wants you to ruminate and solve. You know, if you've got panic disorder, the misfiring threat response doesn't want you to leave the house, doesn't want you to leave your safe zone. Right. It's it's doing what the opposite of what it's trying to do, it's trying to keep you safe. What's your threat response subjective to you trying to tell you to do? To one, get rid of the feelings of uncertainty and the fear of the symptoms and the and the scary thoughts. Well, a lot of people might want to seek reassurance. A lot of people might want to not go to places that scare them. A lot of people will think, well, I've solved problems in the past using my mind. Maybe I can solve this one. Notice who's dictating that. Is it your rational intuition and your logical brain, or is it our friend, the amygdala? Amygdala, or or is he conducting the show? And then that's when you do the opposite. So, yeah, sometimes the it the principles always apply, but they look different depending on how your anxiety presents. This is why I bang my head against the wall when I'm invited on radio shows or do talks and stuff, QA's and panels, and they're always like, Josh, what's what's your top three tips for anxiety? It's like, well, it depends like what it is you've got. If you're a GADA, yeah, you know, that you'll do this. If you're an OCD person who's pure O, maybe you're an OCD person who's not pure O and you have physical compulsions. It depends. You go against it. Um so yeah, it's always a tricky question. That don't get me wrong, I answer it, but it's it's it's tricky. Um, so yeah, and it's just remembering the principles. What what what other kind of principle would you nail home?

SPEAKER_01 10:48

It's the avoidance to me. Like the more I get into this, it's like you know, avoidance, and avoidance is experiential avoidance, your own experience. You're not avoiding the problem that Gad tells you to ruminate on. You're avoiding the feelings internally. Like you, I just don't want to feel a certain way. So if you can identify that, like I am trying to not feel a certain way, I need to get away from these feelings, be they physical or thoughts or emotions, then that gives you the principle to apply. Like, no, I feel compelled to sit and think and worry and solve and analyze because if I don't, that feels bad. There's your there's your principle. Go you have to learn to get better at feeling bad in every sense. Whether we're talking about panic disorder, agoraphobia, OCD, health anxiety, social anxiety, we learn to get better at feeling bad so that we don't fear or get overwhelmed by feeling bad. That's what we're learning.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

Definitely. Yeah. Would would you say that applies to all emotions?

SPEAKER_01 11:47

I kind of think it does because interestingly, we're gonna do an episode on this because I think it's a big topic. Um, it does apply to that, you know, and we're so immersed in a culture now where people are offering us hacks and techniques and tricks and positivity to only feel good that we start to get fooled into thinking that we somehow have a way to own. Positivity, yeah. Like we only have a way to if we do this right, we will only feel good. And that is simply not true. And I know if that sounds nihilistic or like a downer, I think that's just our reality. So, yeah, even emotions. I I I never want to feel bad. I never want to feel sad. I don't want to ever feel guilt or anger. That's not good.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

It's also logically flawed because if you the paradox is if you only ever felt great every day. Right, how would you know for a whole month? How would you know that would become the new norm to you? So there's nothing to compare it against. It's like colors, you know. You oh, everything is blue and green. If everything was green, it wouldn't mean anything, it only looks good against the palette of other colors. It's the same with emotions. It's yes, I'm enjoying today, I'm feeling good. And and you enjoy it because you know that's not what the feeling is forever.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Right, exactly. So, you know, I think you know, the principle here is we have to learn how to deal with this adversity better. You know, generally speaking, if you're listening to the podcast, you have a you have a distress intolerance problem or an aversion to those negative experiences, which all humans do. Nobody wants to feel those things, but we, people like us, get amped up so far into avoiding that experience that we start to develop rituals and avoidances and habits that ruin our lives. We hate them, but we feel like we have to do them. So the trick is like, oh, I'm trying to fix my feeling, I gotta not fix it. Whatever way you're doing that, I gotta start to drop that fixing thing. And so forget it's thinking.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

Well, it's what I love is the simple rule. Uh yeah, it sounds simple, it's not to do, but that's why I always say like the golden rules, particularly in my practice, are golden rule number one what would non-anxious me be doing right now? Yep. Or if you even try to imagine what non-anxious me would be doing right now, and golden rule number two is always a wordy one. It's like is what I'm doing right now, teaching the threat response that this uncertainty is okay. Well, no, because I'm monitoring, I'm ruminating, I'm I've delved into my imagination to explore the catastrophe. I've fallen to the vic uh the not the inwards compulsion where it's just like I've gone completely inwards because it gives me the illusion of control over something, whether it's not wanting to experience that weird emotion, or it gives me you know if a sense of control over a catastrophe happening, but non-anxious you wouldn't be doing that. And goal rule number two is that I'm actually signaling to the brain that this feeling isn't okay, these thoughts are not okay, and and like Drew said before, you've got to learn to be okay with it, you know, and then it calms down the brain. Don't get me wrong, it's not nice, right? But like Sally Winston and Marty Seif says, we should get them as guests, let's email them after this. It's like they talk about secondary fear, and I love it. It's like, yes, we all have fear, we all get anxiety, we all have negative emotions, but in our in the anxiety disorder community, the problem is usually the secondary fear. Uh whether it's OCD, whether it's GAD, whether it's panic, whatever. It's always the misinterpretation and the utter want to avoid secondary fear. Like, oh, I don't feel great, and now because I don't feel great, I've got that secondary fear and I'm feeling worse. I know I struggled with it for years.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

It's really annoying. I don't feel great about not feeling great. So it's either interpreted as a danger or an immediate threat or just overwhelming. You know, it's so interesting to hear when you try and drill down with somebody like sometimes they can come to a specific no, no, no, I think that this means I'm gonna have a heart attack or this means I'm going to have a psychotic break. Sometimes it's just I don't know what it means. It's just too much for me. This powerful feeling, this uncomfortable, icky, gross physical and emotional feeling. I don't know what it is. It's just too much. So I can't have it. And in the end, you know, what is it?

SPEAKER_03 16:15

But what but what about but what if what if what about uh my intrusive thoughts about knives? I've got children. Right does matter.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Right, it does matter. So it's interesting. People will, and again, this is not accusatory. I understand why, because I thought my special thoughts were special too. I thought that they were unique to me, and of course it is important. This makes me scared, me. So, like clearly there must be special instructions for me, right? It's okay to think that, but in the end, no matter what the thought is, no matter what the discomfort is, it's always about an anxiety disorder will make you insist that you are only capable of living in a very narrow range of experience to be okay. When in reality, you know, we start to expand that range of experience. And the really great ones and the really crappy ones are sort of on the edges of the bell curve, but they do exist. They're not zero, you know.

SPEAKER_03 17:06

So But what but what about health anxiety? You know, I've I've lost family members to to to to horrible illnesses. What about that one, Drew?

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Right. Clearly, that must be special, right? Or we have a question from somebody I'm just gonna keep doing this to the end of the episode. Yeah, and that's totally fine because it literally illustrates what we're talking about. We had another question that somebody sent in about cardiophobia, right? So, or she's, you know, her issue is that her her anxiety is focused on her heart. She says, like, um, I really relate to Drew when he once said that he felt like his heart might just stop. So I'm checking my pulse and focusing on my heartbeat all the time. I can't seem to shake this feeling. I feel like the doctors may be missing things and not taking me seriously. Of course, I used to think the same thing. It's my heart. It's I guess maybe you could argue my brain is equally as important, but like those are the two most important organs I got. How can I possibly just leave this alone? But even in that situation where this person insists, but heart fear clearly I have to pay attention to that, right? Or like Josh was saying, health fear. What's your answer to that? You know, but my health, that's real. I can't take that kind of chance. I have kids, I can't take a chance with my health. I hear people say that too. What would you say, what's your response to that?

SPEAKER_03 18:14

Because the threat response always reminds you of your inner most important values. Yeah. I'm having intrusive thoughts about jumping off the bridge, even though I'm not depressed. But what about my kids? What if what if that does happen and I do lose control because it attaches to your values? Right. No, no, it's just a threat response, it's just making you doubt.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

And I think that's where the principle, it's not about the content that matters. And that's hard sell for people too. Like it, this really doesn't have anything to do with your heart, believe it or not. Like I know you think it does, and it might take a while for you to come around to that realization. Like, this has to do with the idea that I get fused with a particular thought. It happens to be about my heart today. And for many people who suffer from these sort of things, you discover that, oh, three months from now, you're like, Oh, yeah, I remember when I was scared of my heart. Now I'm scared of my breathing. Like, that's such a common experience. This is the thing I'm fused with today. So I really got to pay attention to the process that makes that happen.

SPEAKER_03 19:11

I like that. Same with me. I mean, how many different topics do you have, but it's just fused? Mine fused on my breathing, it fused on my heart. Actually, it was just this morning when I was in the gym. I was on the cross train, sweating my ass off. And I was looking at the heart rate. I have it on theater mode, so I can only check my heart rate if I tap my watch. That's just fine. So I don't have yeah, yeah. I've got my watch. It's registering the the workout, but I'm not staring at it. I'm gonna just tap to see my heart rate. It's like 150, something like that. And that's just fine with me. It was supposed to be. That if it ever went over 120, I would freak out. Uh and now I can push it to when I play football, it goes to 17, 172. Yeah. Uh, and I was like, surely that's that's dangerous. And then I just ages ago and I Googled, they were like, Yeah, the average heart rate of a footballer is like 170, 170. Yeah, yeah. It's like your heart is built for that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

It's amazing, and we lose the ability to appreciate the amazingness of our bodies sometimes in these situations.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

Yeah, I was just checking, I was watching again with the outwards focus as well. Right. This may seem simple, but like I'm when I'm on the cross trainer or no, I was walking on the treadmill uphill, uh, and I just got Netflix on the phone. I'm watching, oh no, Disney or something. I was watching Shogun, watching people be beheaded whilst I wasn't walking up. And I was like, I don't check my heart rate how long they've got left, you know. I was like, this is great. Like, you know, 10 years ago, I'd have been like not only I would have been on the cross trainer and I've done well, so I'd give myself a pat on the back, right? But it would be very internally focused. It would what do you remember the golden rules? One, what would non-anxious you do? Brilliant. So I'd done golden rule number one. I went to the gym, that was brave. I got my heart rate up, which is what non-anxious me would have done. That was brave. Well done, me. Don't forget the self-compassion. Golden rule number two is what I'm doing right now teaching the threat response that this uncertainty is okay. No, because it's where the micro compulsions have come in. So even though I'm on the treadmill, I'm doing that, I'm actually kind of scanning, waiting for the anxiety to disappear. I'm on I'm on my watch, checking my heart rate. I was like, so I've done rule number one. Well done, me, rule number two. Um, and I think that the reason why I call them the golden rules is because they apply to pretty much any anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Yeah. And I I think in those experiences, too, this person would say, like, oh, well, that okay, so what you got used to your heart beating fast. Well, yeah, but also, and I can relate to the similar experiences, I would freak out if my heart rate got too high because I was focused on it so much. And did I learn that it was okay for my heart to beat okay when I started exercising again and pushing that and using that as exposure? Yes. But I also at some point, I don't know. Accidentally out of frustration, fatigue, annoyance, whatever, found myself in other situations where that process of fusing with a thought was kicked in on another topic. And I was like, this is messed up. If I could be okay in the gym, why am I not okay here? Just because now I'm afraid of this dizzy feeling. And it was almost frustration that led me to force myself to generalize the principle. Because, you know, otherwise it gets super frustrating because you then you just hop from intrusive thought to intrusive thought, from theme to theme, from symptom to symptom, and like now I gotta fix this, and now I gotta fix this. It's never gonna end. But it but learning the heart thing to teach you how to deal with dizzy if that ever pops up.

SPEAKER_03 22:42

It is one as well that just like kind of struck me with GAD and OCD and stuff, is that you hang around because you feel like you can be sated with the thought. Yep. But if I think about a thought a lot, yeah, then maybe I'll become desensitized to it and sated by it. Uh and it's and it's yeah, I just light bulb just went off in my head. It's the same feeling of contentment that you crave if you're an OCD plug checker or a door lock checker. Yeah. Because you're pulling the handle or you're flicking the plugs or you're moving something around on a surface, or you're cleaning something to chase that feeling of satiation. Yeah. And that's the same as someone who's ruminating about a thought. If I think about it, it's no different. If I think about this enough than whether GAD or Pure O.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:39

If I keep thinking about it, I will reach a feeling of being sated. And that's exact just exactly the same. I know it's just just right, OCD. You're fe you're chasing that.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

Yeah. And if we bring well, we could also relate that then back to like the panic disorder agoraphobia crowd. If I just do this right with my heart, then I'll I'll be I'll feel better because I'll believe that my heart is okay. But really and truly, what I like to talk about is like, no, no, what you're really learning when you do these things is that the question that anxiety is always asking you, which is what if? It's always asking what if. The the context and the content is there, but what if that is the wrong question? So what you're not learning to answer the question, you're learning that that was the wrong question to begin with. So anytime it wants to ask me what if, oh wait, that's not a question. That's not even the right question. That's like demanding, Josh, please tell me if the moon is made of meatloaf. Please. Okay, well, Drew, it's not made of meatloaf. But I don't, I don't can you give me some more proof about that? Sooner or later, you'd be like, that's not even the question. Why am I arguing with you about this? That's not a question. That's not a thing we have to talk about.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

So you learn but just got bat of hell in my head now. Thanks.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Hey, it isn't the meatloaf is never wrong. So just saying, but like you learn that that's not even a question that you have to ask.

SPEAKER_03 24:57

Talking of that as well with the the OCD crowd of we don't forget you, the people that get words in their head again, sated. Yep. We got one of the things. I hate that this word is in my head in head, just a word that I heard once on the radio, threat response latched onto it. And so they keep repeating it to feel sated so we can let it go, but actually not. Because again, non-anxious you wouldn't do that. We have no and and and constantly testing and checking it is not teaching the threat response. This uncertainty is okay.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

That's one of the questions I wanted to use in this episode, too. Is somebody I can I don't know if I can use the names, but thank you for the question. Have you ever covered intrusive obsessive counting? You know, I always have to turn names, words, thoughts into a number by counting how many vowels, similar to what you're saying. Like you're stuck on this word or this phrase or this song or this whatever. This and he's seeing this as somehow. Have you ever talked about that? Like, this is really getting me. What do you do about that?

SPEAKER_03 25:53

Chasing that feeling of satiation because you don't like how it feels when you don't do that. Don't get me wrong, it's not nice when your threat response is triggering or saying if you don't do this, right? You will feel worse, bad things will happen, you're gonna feel uncomfortable. We're with you on that, we empathize with you on that. It's not a nice feeling, yeah. But what we're saying is, yeah, each time we do it, that short-term relief is great, isn't it? When we chase that short-term relief. Well, I have done the counting now, it's brilliant. When I was a kid, I used to have to imagine all the faces of my loved ones, and I compulsively prayed as a kid, um, which is interesting. We don't over overlap. Don't get me wrong, if you pray, that's great. But if you pray compulsively, yeah, you know, maybe delay that prayer for later on. You know, you know, you can still pray if you want to pray, if you're a person of faith.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 26:43

Um, but also if you notice that it's done compulsively, same thing, chasing that feeling of satiation.

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:49

Um, and it they all interlink, don't they? Very because it's all big boy amygdala, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 26:56

He's really annoying, dude. Amygdala. I mean, and he's every but listen, but he has a job to do. He does have an important job for us. So we don't want to turn it off, but we just want to get to the point where we understand that like no matter what the particular issue is, I'm trying to avoid an uncomfortable feeling inside of me. And so I have to allow that uncomfortable feeling to work through. Because the principle we rely on there is always that every every internal experience, every experience in the universe comes and goes. Like that in that discomfort, that disgust or fear or uncertainty, whatever it is, is not going to last forever. But like, no, no, no, no. But it's lasted now for five minutes, and that's too much. So this clearly isn't working. So I have to go back to my compulsion or my avoidance or whatever it is because it's not working. You know, really? Like, you think it's gonna go any five minutes? Yeah, that's not right. That's tough.

SPEAKER_03 27:43

But what about but what about sexual intrusive thoughts where I'm getting a groinal response?

SPEAKER_01 27:50

Yeah, clearly that's important, right? We have to do something about that. Or yeah, or we can recognize it's the same thing. So my body is doing what bodies are designed to do. Like, that's not necessarily appropriate, but guess what? Perpetuation of the species doesn't give a shit about social norms. Like, in the end, evolution and biology don't care. All they know is you need to be ready to make offspring so that we can continue to pass our genetic material along. Doesn't care whether it's appropriate or not to get aroused in your math class. It doesn't really care at all. So instead of recognizing, like, yeah, this is embarrassing or uncomfortable or it just feels icky, like, oh no, now I use my meaning-making machine to try to make meaning from this because it disturbs me.

SPEAKER_03 28:34

Oh man, we should get like we should get a little theme for that, like like the magic roundabout. Yeah, the meaning-making machine.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

It's a that's one of those principles that I I rely on heavily in my work. It's like, yeah, the idea that we can solve problems and make meaning and things symbolically is awesome. I didn't invent this, by the way. Thank you, Stephen Hayes. He's a pioneer in that, but like, and then we turn it against ourselves as a weapon when we have thoughts that we don't like, or like, oh, I had that groin response. I better decipher that and figure it out to prove that I don't really want to like be sexual with my sister. And you know, I I'm sorry if that triggers somebody hearing that, but we need to be able to speak openly and normally about that, not just a thought.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

Speak with POCDs, well, inappropriate thoughts about people you shouldn't, yeah, you know, uh doesn't mean you're weird.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Everything is a thought. So whether it's a thought about inappropriate sexual attraction to somebody that you don't want to be attracted to, or a thought about harming yourself or someone else, or a thought that your heart might stop, it's still the problem is the meaning-making machine kicks into gear, and then we start to confuse that thing with the real thing. The thought about it feels like the real thing.

SPEAKER_03 29:51

But what about thinking itself? I'm more worried about the thought of thinking itself and analyzing thinking as a mechanism. What about that? What if what if that worries me?

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Yeah, well, then you're gonna have to be worried about that. Like the principle still same principle still applies. And I've had people who are stuck in that, or they'll hear this and like, okay, thoughts are just thought cool. But what if but if I'm not my thoughts, then what am I? And who am I? And then it becomes existential, then it becomes well, what am I supposed to think and what am I not supposed to think? And then there's this. That is a tricky one. I had that one.

SPEAKER_03 30:23

That was a sticky one. DPDR, yep, an existential OCD. Oh, that's a fun one. Tough combo, right? Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, uh it was nice because this morning I was just playing Mortal Kombat on the PlayStation. It was like, I like feeling basic again. I don't want to go back to doing that, you know, because yeah, just like yeah, DPDR and existential uh anxiety. Um oh, that's a good topic we do as well. The difference between reflecting and rumination, particularly with existential OCD. Yeah, you know, then the threat response triggers, no, no, you need to work out the cosmos right now when you're in Pizza Hut. Or actually, no, actually, or the difference between sitting there going, actually, it's pretty cool. There's loads of unanswered questions there. Yeah, I'm gonna do that while I'm chilling out with a beer around the campfire. I ain't gonna be doing that when I'm triggered.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

And I go into it knowing that there are no answers to these things, and we're just speculating. And I yeah, I will achieve no certainty, and that might even upset me a little bit in this conversation, but I know that going in, as opposed to, oh no, I need to solve this unsolvable question, which might be existential or you know, cosmological or whatever you get freaked out by, or it might be how can I be totally sure that I won't ever get cancer and leave my kids? You can't, right? So yeah, but if you're trying to solve it, that's usually that's the difference.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

But what about my if my intrusive thought is and begins with, but what about?

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Oh so I guess so meta now, but my intrusive thought is, but what about? Well, okay, let's talk about that. And isn't he getting annoying? Like with the what about? But I love it, like is what we're here for today, right? Like a little child, but what about and you know what? It's funny, you might even try and use that a little bit. That silly little thing that Josh just said. Think of your anxiety disorder a little bit as a petulant child, it wants all the attention, and like you know, give me more, like, give me more. Like, no, let's talk about this now. Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 32:26

I use that analogy online, and loads of parents really liked it. And but I remember getting this DM like children aren't petulant and having tantrums, they're just conveying their needs, and saying this is per perpetrating the neglect of young. I was like, no, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Just like give over. Let's answer that question. That's right. Kids are expressing their needs, they don't know how to do that yet, and we teach them how to do that gently so that it's not appropriate to throw a tantrum and scream and yell and break things to get an answer. You ask a question and we do the best we can to answer it with you.

SPEAKER_03 33:02

I did that. It's my poor, my poor mom when I was three years old. I was taking I was in a supermarket throwing things off the off the off the side and all that stuff. Do you know why? Because I was being a little dick.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Right. You didn't know how to do it. You were learning how to do it, and that's what kids do. But that's what an anxiety disorder does. It operates at a lower level, right? It's not an adult thing, it's a survival thing, it's a lower brain thing. So, like, no OCD. I know you want to throw a tantrum and like sweep the table clean and break all the glasses to get attention, but that's not what we do. And like sooner or later, you tell a little kid, like, I can't answer that question. I don't know the answer to that question. Or that's not even a question. That's what we're doing. So you could use it that way for sure. But to answer your, but what about, but what about? I know we've seen this. That is the whole like, I'm anxious because I don't know what my next intrusive thought is going to be, or what, or I'm afraid that it's going to morph, or I'm afraid I'll develop a new theme, or I'm afraid of new symptoms. That's but what about, but what about?

SPEAKER_03 34:01

Should we should we quickly do a but what about uh trade-off? The rule is you can only say, but what about? And the most common ones you hear.

SPEAKER_04 34:09

Sure.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

Uh, this isn't done to mock. I'm gonna use my own. Yeah, me too. That I did when I back when I was years ago, like, but what about uh and ones I hear, and this is done just to help you feel seen. Yeah, I think so. And this episode applies to that. You know what?

SPEAKER_01 34:23

It's like when we do the symptoms, we're not making fun of the symptoms, but you get to when you hear them in rapid sequence, kind of in this context, it's like, oh yeah, I guess that makes sense. This isn't logical, is it?

SPEAKER_03 34:32

Yeah, uh what about this is me personally. I had uh but what about dizziness and collapsing?

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Yeah, I had, but what about if we just the lights just turn out when we die? But what about that?

SPEAKER_03 34:46

Oh, yeah, yeah. What about heart palpitations and chest pain?

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yeah, well, but what about my heart just stopping? Because what makes it keep beating? That's it, doesn't seem like it should do that.

SPEAKER_03 34:57

But but what about my relationship, and I do end up leaving my relationship, or I end up staying with someone I shouldn't be with?

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Yeah, but what about when the orange juice is poisoned? Because you know that does happen sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 35:11

But what about me getting a groinal response when I've been asked to look after some family members?

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Yeah, but what about like getting really sick and dying? Because that people get sick and die. That's real.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

But what about my relatives who've have a history of mental health issues like schizophrenia and and and uh and and uh and other mental health issues? But what about that? What what if that happens to me?

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Yeah, but right, but what about like uh psychotic break? This thing, what about when the anxiety gets so much that you snap?

SPEAKER_03 35:43

Yeah, oh god, there's so many, isn't there? We won't be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

We could go on for hours and hours. How about you get that you get that? But what about if I make a big scene and and embarrass myself? That's a big one, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, oh yeah, most common, but what about my work and my boss sees me and that has some consequences? That is a tricky one.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

It is, but what about when you're taking care of your kids? Surely I can't allow anxiety in that, right? But what about my own?

SPEAKER_03 36:14

Right, can't see me being anxious. I don't want to give it to my kids. Yeah, hear that quite a lot. You get the point. If you ask yourself when you're particular, this applies to people, particularly if you know you're you're seeking reassurance sometimes compulsively through forums or reading books and things like that, trying to find the answers to how you feel. But if you if that resonates with you, like, oh, but what about this? Just kind of catch it. You're like, ah, there's that what about thing. What would non-anxious me be doing right now? I know the psychoeducation behind this. If you don't, then you know, go back. You can always listen to the psychoeducation here or other places about anxiety, the threat response, and make doing stuff, but catch it. And then give yourself a nice pat on the back and be like, ah, I've just observed my but what about? What do I do now?

SPEAKER_01 37:03

Right. And the principle is, and I want to call attention for a second to someone who sent in a question. We didn't get to play it, but her assertion was hey, the food anxiety, love the food episode, but you were talking about people who are afraid of bloating or blood sugar. I'm actually afraid to I want to eat. I'm afraid to eat because I once had a panic attack at the table. What about that? So the principle there would be what am I afraid of? I'm afraid of the feeling of panic at the table. What am I doing? I'm not eating then to avoid that feeling. What do I have to do? I'm gonna have to eat and maybe panic so I can learn that I can handle that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:37

There you go. And applying the golden rules, what would non-anxious you be doing? Right, eating. I'd be eating at the table, yeah. Yeah, this is where we have to look out for Craig the Critic. Is he around?

SPEAKER_01 37:47

He's around.

SPEAKER_03 37:47

It's Craig the Critic.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

He's around more than amygdala.

SPEAKER_03 37:50

Yeah, so when you do apply, he is. When you do apply that, like non-anxious me would be eating food at the table. Yeah, you ain't gonna be eating it like non-anxious you would do properly. Right. But you do the best you can. Yes, you might your throat might be a bit tight. Yes, you might have dry mouth. Yeah, you might not feel hungry because you've got all the adrenaline and cortisol, but you do it anyway. This is why we do the did it anyways. We did it anyway, even with all that going on. And then you give yourself a pat on the back and don't let Craig the critic win.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:21

And then the second rule again, Corv is what I'm doing right now, teaching the threat response. This is uncertainty, is okay.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:29

Well, actually, no, I'm scanning all the food. I'm scanning to see if I can chew that piece of food. I'm scanning for I don't know, exits just in case I need to run out. No, it's okay. You got this, yeah, you know, and that's where it applies. The principles are the same, whether someone who doesn't want to eat or afraid to get bloated to someone who's like, Oh, what if I panic when I go out for a meal? Those principles always apply.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

And when you did it anyway, in the end, what you learned is I didn't, I didn't even have to, I didn't have to answer the question, what if I panic while eating with certainty. I didn't even have to ask the question. I learned that I didn't even have to ask the question. So when my anxious brain wants to ask a different question in two months, I know that it doesn't have to ask that either. So we don't have to delve into it.

unknown 39:11

And there you go.

SPEAKER_03 39:12

Talking of Did It Anyways, um, and thank you for I hope we hope that was helpful. Some people uh I think it's a really good topic suggestion. Drew wanted to talk about it. I think it's really important. Um, yeah. Do you want to? I've got some written did it anyways here. Yeah, let's hear them, man. I love them. Yeah, you go on. Uh here we go. Uh dear Drew and Josh, thank you so much for your content. It has been so helpful to me recently as I face some challenges in my life. I found the recent episode really helpful as I attempt to overcome a very difficult relationship with my eating. Ah, this follows on nicely. As I did it anyway, I was able to eat some ice cream with my family this weekend, despite my panic about how it might affect my digestion and health. I experienced a lot of health-related anxiety regarding how certain components of food may detract from my health, contribute to disease, etc. Sounds like it's a bit in OCD territory, but anyway, I'll carry on. Uh, I also experienced a panic attack at my gym and vowed never to go back. However, today I took a deep breath, stayed present, and completed a really enjoyable session. Thank you so, so much. Hope you're both well. Well, we are both well.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

Thank you for asking.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

That's serious progress there. Thank you. Quest uh Did It Anyway sender in.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

Yes, exactly. Uh you got another one?

SPEAKER_03 40:38

Or yeah, I got another one here. They've not given permission to use their name, but thank you for sending it in. Uh, I've been listening to your podcast for a while now. Absolutely love it. Thank you very much. And it's now time to share a Did It Anyway. I've been struggling with anxiety and panic for a few years now and recently booked a holiday to Cyprus, despite being a bit stressed about it, but needing a total break. So happy to say that I got back from my holiday last week and had an amazing time. Whilst I was really quite anxious about the flight, being in social situations and unfamiliar places, I tried to focus on willful tolerance and what non-anxious me would do. Oh, so there were a few occasions where I felt uncomfortable, but it was nowhere near as bad as it has been and passed quickly. I'm so proud of myself and feel that I can really beat this now. Thank you so much for all your help.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Oh, I love that one. I was gonna read that one. You beat me to it.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

I beat you to it.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

It totally beat me to it. I love that. You know what the lesson is there? When I did not focus only on solving how I felt, amazingly, the feeling passed more quickly. Not trying to fix it was better than trying to fix it. Imagine that.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

Yeah, so good. So good. Keep them those coming in. We get enough, we'll do another, we'll do it. Did it anyway round three. Uh, if you like listening to the Did It Anyways, we did uh there's two episodes in the Did It Anyway, Did It Anyway round two.

SPEAKER_02 42:07

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 42:07

Uh keep them sending in the voice notes, the emails, and and we'll we just love reading them out. And uh it's really nice, proud of you. Genuinely, it's it's really special to to see and it's brave. So well done.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Oh, 100%. So if you have if you want to send them in, you can go to disorder.fm. You can send us an email from there, or you can click on the little blue button and send us voicemail if you want. We try and listen to all of them, although we can't always get them on. We do like hearing from you guys. And of course, if you're listening to the podcast on Spotify or Apple, you know, leave a five-star rating and maybe write a review if you dig us, especially from the US, because we cannot let the Brits overtake us. We can't not have it, man.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

The 4th of July parade's got to you out already.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

100%. Where's the eagle when we need it? But we do appreciate all the kind words and the feedback and the reviews. Thank you so much. It really makes this even more fun. It's fun anyway. It's my probably my most fun hour of the week that we do. Yeah, I'm with you on that, Mama. Very good.

SPEAKER_03 43:01

Well, I'll catch you soon, Drew.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Always a pleasure. Absolutely. We'll see you guys next week. We are out of the way.