Anxious About Feeling ... Calm? (Episode 132)

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hi there, my name's Laura, and I had a question for you both Josh and Drew. Is it normal? I know that you did go through this topic in one of your previous, um, one of your previous podcast sessions. Is it normal when your anxiety is getting better to feel strange? Um, to, you know, I'm starting to feel quite relaxed. And I think I have had severe anxiety, DPDR, um, agrophobia, panic disorder for the past probably 10 months. The DPDR was getting more intense towards the end. I'm sort of on the way to recovery now with a mix of listening to your amazing podcast and some um SSRIs and also talking to a psychologist. But yeah, I was just wondering, is it normal that when you start to feel better, that everything your body feels strange? Like my body feels quite lightweight, my breathing's easier, and I just feel now strange because I'm not anxious. Um yeah, just wondering if that is common and if anyone's got any sort of feedback or relatable stories to feeling very, very unusual within their body once they've kind of hit that road to recovery from anxiety. Love your work. You guys have been um sort of such a profound part of my recovery, and you're helping so many people, and I love listening to your sessions every week. Take care.

SPEAKER_03 1:26

Welcome to Disorder. This is episode 132, entitled Panicogenic Relaxation. When it feels weird when we're suddenly relaxed and things feel um normal, in air quotes again. Uh, to answer your question, Laura. No, it's not normal. You are on the brink of insanity. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm Joshua, I'm not on the brink of insanity. It's very normal, it's a great question, and we're going to talk about that today. So, yeah, I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, psychotherapist based in Manchester in the UK, specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm also a previous sufferer of anxiety, panic, OCD, health anxiety, agrophobia, etc., and can relate a lot to what Laura has said. So big thank you to for your question.

SPEAKER_04 2:16

Uh and I'm joined by I'm Drew Linsolata. Same as that guy. So everything Josh said, same thing, except I'm in New York. And Josh is a little taller than me. But otherwise, the experiences are uncannily identical, aren't they? Same thing. Written books about this topic. I'm treating anxiety disorders for a living. Uh, psychoeducator, social media guy, former sufferer. We will Josh and I live very similar experiences in the other half of disorder, just on the the the right, the correct side of the Atlantic. Thank you very much. Oh, the correct side.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

Shots fired, baby. Yeah, okay, okay. Um, really good question. Um, you've never heard of the term panicogenic relaxation, have you? No, not until I heard you say it. Yeah, so when I was reading Sally Winston and Marty Seif's book, um, on I think it was called What Every Therapist Needs to Know About Anxiety Disorders, which is like my Bible as a therapist. Um, in one of the chapters, they talk about panicogenic relaxation, which is when when we're anxious, OCD, panic, anxiety disorder, whatever, for so long, that can become our default. It's a predictable, almost comfort. Now you say that to anxious people, they're like, Well, no, I hate anxiety, want to get rid of it, whatever. But give it enough time, and it actually becomes psychologically the most predictable pillar of our day. And when it's there and it's the inner in a world and a life full of variables and scary thoughts and things, the feeling actually becomes the most predictable thing that often kind of underpins our day. And when they speak spoke about panicogenic relaxation, what they mean is when you're doing well, like Laura, the question sender in a said, is that it's very strange and weird when you're doing well to suddenly experience the majority of your day or bigger windows with this feeling not being there because your brain's rewired, and it's a completely new phenomenological experience. Like, wow, my day is actually different. The one constant that was there all the time is no longer there, you know. And maybe it's because you know, we're maybe Laura's a bit aware of it because um of checking compulsions, how do I feel? This and that, which is fine as you're you know, as you're going through desensitization. But in general, it's like, yeah, of course it feels strange. I felt strange. It was like, wow, this is quite new to me. I don't know. Can you relate to that, Drew?

SPEAKER_04 4:55

100%. I just didn't know it had a name. Um, I mean, I remember feeling the word I used to describe was empty. So, like the best analogy I could give you, it's like for years my body was like full of like hornets. There was always buzzing and stuff going on, like activity in there, and I was always looking for it. You shouldn't eat hornets, man. That's I mean, you I suppose there might be new treacherous. Well, probably full of protein, I guess. I don't know. But like when the hornets left, now there's no more buzzing, and like it's just like empty. I used to feel like physically empty, and it was so disconcerting to me. Like, this is what is this? What is this like empty, hollow nothing feeling? Oh, that's the default for most human beings that don't have an anxiety disorder. But I had forgotten that. I really forgot that.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Yeah, well, the reason why we call it panicogenic relaxation, it's it's not the panicogenic is when when people are on the road to desensitization. Notice I didn't say recovery. Uh when people are on the road to desensitization, um, sometimes they'll find themselves relaxed. And because that is a break in the norm of constantly being hyper-vigilant, constantly scanning, you know, being in meerkat mode, panicogenic relaxation is when when I'm relaxed, i.e., I've meditated, I've had a massage, I've just done something to chill out. Sometimes that can spike an anxiety kind of episode. Whoa, that's so weird, that's so normal. Now, Laura doesn't sound like it doesn't sound like that's happening to Laura, although it's a bit concerning because for her because she wouldn't be sending in the question. But in general, for some people, it's that anxiety around, whoa, this feels I'm just not used to feeling relaxed. Uh, for me, it used to occur when I meditated or was actually hitting zero out of ten anxiety for the first time in a very long time. And for a threat response that's been conditioned and thanked through habit for a long time, yeah, that relaxation can suddenly be a threat. Because as we know, anxiety, the amygdala, whatever, we've been thanking it for a long time, and it's taken the credit for keeping us safe. So suddenly when we turn that response off and we're like, oh, you know, I'm still here. Sometimes the threat response jumps in and goes, bang, are you sure? Because I've been looking after you this whole time. It's the same as the very similar to the OCD backdoor spike.

SPEAKER_04 7:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:32

It's like it's like, oh, I thought that was fine. And it's like, are you sure? Because you've been relaxed for far too long. Bam. Yeah. And it's a similar thing.

SPEAKER_04 7:39

You know what I think it speaks to, which I never thought of until now. People will often say, like, but I my panic or my anxiety, it comes out of the blue. And I always say, no, it doesn't. It that is not out of the blue. But I wasn't thinking about anything. It but the scanning, the evaluation of your internal state is a thing that's always happening and it's outside of our awareness. So while the anxiety or the agitated state itself maybe has fallen off, that that scanner that's always looking inside of you, even though you don't ask it to, is still on. So yeah, it's you know, it's scanning all the time, even though you don't ask it to, you trained it to, and now it's just doing that by default. So when the feeling falls off, it's still scanning and it finds a new feeling, which is no feeling. And then it's like, oh, this is a change. We can't have any change. Change is bad. This, what does this mean? What does this mean? We need to do something about this.

SPEAKER_03 8:31

You're alive because of me and our scanning and monitoring of the anxiety.

SPEAKER_04 8:35

Yeah. I mean, your brain is always doing that, it's constantly affect-checking. Like, that's just part of how we build our reality. But like it goes into hyperdrive, so like the scanning is still happening. I over time, what happened to me and what happens to most people is like I just that's quieted down. Like that prediction wasn't always firing off of like there's a change, this is a problem. This is a chance, there's a change, that's a problem, this is a problem, this is a problem. It just became this is normal now.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

There's there's nothing to see here, move on. Yeah, you described that perfectly. Over time, yeah. It's and because we often say practice being anxious, but also when you get to Laura's stage, it's you gotta practice being relaxed. Yeah, and I know I when was the last time you practiced whilst relaxed? Well, God knows years, mate.

SPEAKER_04 9:19

I think it's interesting because we talk all the time about like the goal isn't to make the anxiety go away or calm it down or prevent it or control it, it's to be you gotta get better at feeling the feelings, having the experiences. And I will use the term all the time. Well, you have to learn that all states are permissible. Well, as it turns out, calm doesn't feel permissible at first. Even Hawaii, Hawaii is permissible, North Dakota is permissible. I mean, Wyoming, we're out on that one at this point, but like most states are permissible, Rhode Island not permissible. You all aren't even a state, it's so tiny. Come on, man. Sorry, we're wrong.

SPEAKER_03 9:55

All states all feelings are welcome, all states are permissible. Yeah, and there'll be some feelings that you've not that will feel alien to you because you've not experienced them for a long time.

SPEAKER_04 10:04

Sure. How about the um I mean this happened to me a couple of times? I wasn't really gripped by anxiety all the time, but when a big emotion would roll in that was just the emotion, it wasn't attached to like a fear response, that would become fear. Like, because well, I was just chill, I was neutral, I was feeling nothing, and now all of a sudden I have this big hit of anger or excitement, and like, oh, that's not okay. Oh, quick change, and that would trigger like the old anxiety would come back a little bit. I had to learn again. Oh, wait, that's right. Like, this is what happens to human beings. We're calm and then we're not, and we're happy, and then we're sad, and then we're angry, and then we're whatever, we're neutral. It was like learning to be a functioning human again. It was weird, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:46

Yeah, yeah. Because it's usually just one, isn't it? Yes, one one dictating emotion, fear, uncertainty, whatever, nervousness. Yeah, and then when you let in all the rest, it's interesting that as well, because it's very common in therapy. You know, we often say life isn't all about an anxiety disorder. Yep. So it's also very common when I work with people in practice, and you might see this too, Drew, is that when anxiety's been taking up, jumping to the head of the queue every single day, and then you finally stop the stress, drug overflowing and whatnot, other emotions can like delayed emotions can come to the forefront. So, like uh grief or happiness or anger, irritation, whatever, they can come afterwards too, because you've kind of kind of put a stop to that constant anxiety, and then other emotions come up too, and that can feel affrontic, like whoa, you know, but you know, but that person died so long ago. I'm like, yeah, but how long have you had an anxiety disorder? Yeah, I experienced that.

SPEAKER_04 11:48

You know, I wasn't sick of it when I lost my grandparents, and then when I came out of that, like all of that stuff was still waiting. Yeah, hey, not processed it.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Yeah, not processing.

SPEAKER_04 11:56

Exactly right. And like anxiety and fear had taken up all the space. If you think of it as like a cube, it would just fill the entire cube. So when it evacuated or left, suddenly there's space in like grief and sadness and memories all over like, hey, thanks, thanks for opening the door. We're coming back in now. Welcome. Remember us?

SPEAKER_03 12:12

Giant, giant beards and they're elderly.

SPEAKER_04 12:15

It's been 84 years, like forming Titanic, but they were still there. I think people often will ask things like, Oh, they get when they're in the thick of it and they're struggling to desensitize, not recover. See, I'll I can adjust.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

I love it. I'm the I'm I'm glad you're getting on my banning words thing. Yeah, this is this is tough.

SPEAKER_04 12:31

I feel like I'm joining the cult, but it's all right. I like to hear it. Slowly getting there. Yeah. So people will often be really upset because they'll say things like, I can't seem to access joy, I can't access happiness, I can't access, I'm looking at my kids, but I can't seem to access like deep love for them. Yeah, I know, because anxiety is just filling all the space. It's taken up every bit of room you got, and it's happy to do it. So there's just no room for those things. When you start to notice that that begins to sort of ebb or wane, natural emotions, whether they're old emotions or just natural emotions that come up every day, just will start to pop up. Oh, look, I'm happy. Oh, I forgot about that. That happens. So really great. But yeah, it's a really common experience, Laura. It's not, it's not unusual at all. I've had people ask if they were bipolar. I had two people asked me if that meant that they're bipolar. And I'm like, well, I'm not sure why you asked me about bipolar. Well, because I I suddenly feel so down. I'm like, well, are you depressed? It wasn't down at all, it was neutral. So compared to frantic, like neutral, normal, calm, felt like such another extreme that they freaked out because they thought that they were undiagnosed bipolar.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

No, you just bipolar would will tell you what it's like, and it's you know very different to desensitizing yourself from like an anxiety disorder. Uh let's listen to the community. What we got? Uh we got this one.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name is Chandler. I am from Brooklyn. Feel free to use my name. I just wanted to share a doing it anyway. So sorry if I seem frazzled. Um, but I have pretty bad health anxiety. We're doing a little bit better now, but it was, you know, bad enough that I was actually laid off from my job not too long ago. But proud to report, I do have a new job that I love. I teach ceramics and manage a ceramic studio. And tonight we're opening a second location where I'm scheduled to teach the first class that will ever be held there. So naturally I'm a little nervous. Um, and by that I mean so nervous, I've broken out in hives, which happens a lot for me. But normally I would be crying, throwing up, halfway to the hospital, canceling the class, feeling guilty. But through this podcast and hearing other people's doing it anyways, I know that I can be brave and do scary things. And I am currently in the mirror covering up some of these hives, and I'm gonna go teach this class. Uh uh, thank you guys for bringing this community together. Um, I really get immense value from just hearing everybody's doing it anyways, did it anyways, and it gives me a lot of strength knowing that I'm not alone and keep doing what you're doing, please. And if you couldn't tell, I am so looking forward to the health anxiety book. Thank you guys. Wish me luck. Bye.

SPEAKER_04 15:27

It's two weeks in a while with bye.

SPEAKER_03 15:31

Love that. I really enjoyed that one. That's uh what a nice um compassionate self-talk as well. Like, you know what? I'm gonna do it. Broke out in hives, whatever. I'm still doing it, you know. And I love that. Well done.

SPEAKER_04 15:45

Well done. Chandler's going to teach her class looking like Yoda, she's all swollen up and everything, but like, all right, I can I can do that. Slap some makeup on that and go do what I gotta do.

SPEAKER_03 15:53

Yeah, well done, Chandler. Uh yeah, big well done from us. Uh it's put a nice smile on my face.

SPEAKER_04 15:59

You know, scared bodies do scared body things. Just a quick reminder when Chandler gets anxious, she breaks out in hives. That's what bodies do. Some people have that. Some people feel out of breath, some people have their heart race, some people sweat, some people feel dizzy.

SPEAKER_03 16:11

Like I look like an eel when I'm anxious. An eel. You sweat like a like well, I don't eels don't sweat, but I I look like maybe they do. I look like a a beached eel.

SPEAKER_04 16:25

Yeah, so some people are sweaters, but like I think it's really important to recognize that like Chandler was having a physical response to feeling anxious, but she was able to catch it, like, oh yeah, I see. I'm afraid of this. I don't know. I can let this happen. This is normal, this is supposed to happen. Here I go. Yeah, thank you so much for sharing. Appreciate it. Where else might people be able to hear a lot of did it anyway stories and maybe share them and talk about them? But where I wonder if there's a place for that.

SPEAKER_03 16:51

I'm gonna keep teasing this as well, you know. You know, we're teasing the book, we're teasing the app, and then then they're like, Yeah, we get it, guys, but can you just drop it then? You know, you just like put up our shut up. Not Taylor Swift teasing an album in 10 years' time, you know, like just oh, we're way better than Taylor Swift, there's no doubt. Yeah, the disordered app will be soon. We've got a few uh technical issues, but we will uh the disordered app will be available soon. Yeah if you want to jump on and share all you did it anyways, and we'll read them out on here. And um, and that's where me and Drew are gonna hang out because I'm sick of Instagram and stuff, so we're just gonna hang out. That's how bad our control issues are. We're gonna create our own platform to hang out on. We cannot open that app anymore, so like forget it, we'll just make our own. This is crazy. Yeah, I'm sick of scrolling and just seeing like better help and then loads of nonsense of some person putting an ice pack on their back or whatever. Just no, I'm not enough of that.

SPEAKER_04 17:42

Here's five years of therapy in 30 seconds. Come on, not interesting. Oh, I see those as well. What is that? That's the new thing. Five years of therapy in 30 seconds.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Isn't that isn't that that's just optimization culture? Yeah, epitomized, you know. Yeah, and and how is that five years? That's a terrible therapist. If it took you five years to get to that.

SPEAKER_04 18:05

Speaking of, and then we'll move on. In in when Laura sent in our opening question, I just wanted to point out that in the list of things that helped her, disordered, then her SSRI, and then sort of limping in on third place with some random psychologist. I I did not that was not lost on me. Thank you, Laura. We really appreciate that. And by the way, random psychologists, if you're listening, sorry, dude. Like, I'm sure you're fine, I'm sure you're doing a good job.

SPEAKER_03 18:31

Anyway, so returning like to the topic, you I yeah, I remember like you're doing all right, and like you'd have to have like this kind of self-dialogue where it's like, well, I'm watching TV or whatever, and this does feel new, like wow, or like going on holiday for the first time, and you might have been on a few holidays, you feel anxious, and you're in that constant state of hypervigilance, and it is weird, as Laura said, it's weird to suddenly be like, This is the first holiday or first event I've been to in a long time, and it is gonna be weird because it's gonna feel incongruous to every time you've done this in the in in recent history. I yeah, I just thought I just found this fan, I find it fascinating. And for some people, yes, the threat response can misinterpret that relaxation as threat. You know, I've kept you alive. No, you haven't. You've been inspiring and taking the cred taking the credit, but yeah, like there is that can be that moment where you're like, ooh, particularly if you've had anxiety for a long time. I think if you've recently had an anxiety disorder and you know, give or take a few months, and you know, you've got had the right information and you're desensitizing, I think you might be okay with this stuff. But this is particularly applicable to people who have had it for a very long time, and what that is gonna feel weird. Yeah, whoa, because you almost forgot what it's like to be in the world of oh, I'm not in threat mode.

SPEAKER_04 20:04

Yeah. I I think it's people every day, every human being I think on the planet somehow, in some way, shape, or form, asks, Am I okay? That's probably a central function of being human. At some point, you're gonna ask, Am I okay? This default mode network. A little bit, right. I think part of that is what am I doing? How am I feeling? What's going on? Am I okay? Just that in an anxiety disorder, that question gets asked a hundred times more than in the non-disordered person does. Thousands. Thousands, right? And it becomes such an important question. So when you find this a new state, or this is an unfamiliar state of not being anxious or not being agitated or not feeling like frantic or urgent, what does this mean? What does this mean? So, like, shock attention resistance is still happening. Like you're shocked by noticing that, like, I'm calm, but that's shocking. And then it's like, what does this mean? This must mean something. What does this mean? Why do I feel this way? What is this? I better ask about this, which is resistance. So, even though you're feeling better, that SAR shock attention resistance cycle will keep going. You got to feed it data that says, like, no, no, this is not that interesting. It's it's fine, like let it ride. What should I do about this? I don't know. What's important to you? Interact with your family, call a friend, go out to dinner.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

I don't know. Absolutely. Yeah, you've nailed that on the head. Uh it is still shock attention resistance.

SPEAKER_04 21:22

It's crazy, man. It's hard to turn that side.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

So I so I'd say that to I'd say that to Laura, I'd say, yes, you're doing really well in your recovery/slash desensitization. But I would say, you know, I'm I'm desensitizing now, I'm almost there, but I'm still doing that shock attention resistance because in response to something new, you know, because you can we can even tell in the question, it's like this is new, and there's a question mark over it, and there is a little bit of concern there. So it's it's like low level. It's like, no, you just gotta practice for that. It's cool.

SPEAKER_04 21:58

Laura's question was so great too, because she even said Like you've talked about this before. She acknowledged hearing us talk about this, but let me just ask, I'm not I'm not picking on you, Laura. It's fine. Like Yeah, we are. Yeah, but yeah, but can you talk a little more about this? Cause this does, are you sure this is all right? You you're right. You're sure this is all right, right? So I I totally, I really do understand that. And and I think in the end, it it becomes one of those things where like now I have to start to move. I have to let this state also exist. I have to learn from that that this is okay. This is going to become my new normal. And like I see what's going on here. I'm still scanning. I think one of the other things that starts to kick in, it's maybe it's similar, maybe it's not the same thing, but we hear, is this normal? Is this safe? Is this okay? What does this mean? We also hear suddenly I'm feeling better, which is really great. Like I put in all the work, I've done all this stuff, I'm feeling better. What if what if I what if I go backwards? That is another, I think, response that's often triggered when people get into that like calmer, more neutral the state they've been dying to get into. Sometimes it's automatically the, but what if this, what if it doesn't last? What am I doing to what did I do to make this? I have to keep doing that. Like I have to make sure I pursue it.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

I need I need to lock this down and never lose it.

SPEAKER_04 23:11

What if it what if it goes away? I don't want to lose it. I don't want to go back there again. And so it becomes this crazy thing where like you're feeling better, but then almost ruining it accidentally because you're so worried that you won't feel better tomorrow. But like you're feeling better now, so be in now.

SPEAKER_03 23:27

And all emotions are welcome. Yeah. And you forgot that.

SPEAKER_04 23:31

Yeah. So fear and apprehension. Yeah, you're nervous. Like, you don't want to repeat that terrible experience. Of course you don't.

SPEAKER_03 23:36

We don't want you to either. Also, you got to this stage because you've been practicing the willful tolerance of uncertainty. Now, now look what's happened. Right. Oh, I'm a bit uncertain. I and then you've stopped willfully tolerating. Even in states that aren't anxiety.

SPEAKER_04 23:54

That's so interesting because it shifts from I'm I'm uncertain whether I'm okay to I'm uncertain whether I will still be okay.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

Like yeah, and it's still willful tolerance applies.

SPEAKER_04 24:05

Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe you'll have a little bit of a you know, you'll get a little resensitized temporarily tomorrow. It could be, but you know what to do now. Like, take the win. You got here for a reason, so you can't just like magically melt down again. It's not gonna happen. Yeah, that's my win.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

Yeah, I've got some. Should we have something else from the community? Have you got a written one? I've got a written one.

SPEAKER_04 24:26

Nope, I don't have a written one, so why don't you write one?

SPEAKER_03 24:29

I'll read a written one. Oh, why not? Sounds good. Okay, here we go. Um, can we use the name? Yes, we can use their name. Here we go. Hi, Josh and Drew. I wanted to write and leave it. Did it anyway? My name is Joanna. I'm from Norwich in the UK, and you can use my name. I've been struggling with anxiety all my life, but it became disordered in 2015, and I've been dealing with panic disorder, agrophobia, and OCD for the last 10 years without much luck, until I found your podcast a year ago. And now I'm finally making progress. I'm truly grateful. I recently became re-sensitized. Oh, well done on the vocal, after a physical health condition flared up. I was housebound with fatigue for the past eight weeks, but all year has been an on and off battle with my health. This has caused my anxiety to resensitize, and even though the fatigue has lifted, my anxiety has tried to convince me it's not safe to go out anymore. Last weekend I was determined to go out with my partner. I'd planned to go to the garden center, and then if I had the energy, to a food hall. They're both a 10-minute drive away, but I'd not been there before, and I was very scared I'd also not and I'd also not driven in weeks. However, I managed to go, and we had a great time. While I was out doing the scary thing, I imagined you and Drew as a count as countervoices to my own Craig the Critic, cheering me on like two small anxiety cheerleaders on each shoulder. A truth I imagined I'd keep to myself, yet here I am sharing it. I was so excited to be outside and okay, I wanted to do one more thing that day. That's Billy May. Where's Billy Mays, man?

SPEAKER_04 26:13

Billy Mays is right here. But I'm not done yet.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Thank you. Which was visit the swimming pools bar. It's only an eight-minute drive from the house, and I haven't been able to go for weeks. Tentatively, my partner suggested maybe we leave it for today, as we've done a lot, and maybe it's best to try again tomorrow and not push our luck. I could hear my own anxiety agreeing with this, but louder was the voice of my new tiny mascot. Me, Josh, shouting, go for it, go to the spa, you'll be fine. So we did, and it was great. Of course, I had a lot of anxiety while I was out, but I did it anyways, and I plan to do it again.

SPEAKER_04 26:53

Oh, that's so great. Just kept going.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

Your tiny mascots quite awful. I can get into that. We don't monetize this podcast, but if you would like to purchase the new Joe Josh mascot dolls, that you can they sit on your shoulder. I mean, well done, John. That's that's amazing. Well, and I love that your conceptualization of my stress drug filled up, health scares, resensitized, but I know what to do here. And I love that you were the one that kept pushing it. So your part sounds really encouraging, like you've done so much today, you know, you do whatever. And you're like, nah, keep going. Yeah, we're not done.

SPEAKER_04 27:32

Yeah, we're not done yet. We're not done yet. That was really great. You know, and that's normal, by the way. You get a little resensitized, and that that evaluation engine will kick back in again. I don't know. You're a little you're shaky right now. Like, maybe we better take it easy. Let's treat ourselves like glass again. It seems like the right move. No, no, hell no, we ain't doing that. We're going to the food hall, we're going to the spa. Like, well done.

SPEAKER_03 27:53

There was so much ammo as well, wasn't there? Like, look, you you've your your health's not been great recently, and you're pushing it too far. And I love it.

SPEAKER_04 28:00

And it was so like almost like the perfect storm fatigue, you know, as part of the health issue. So, like, that's perfect ammo for like, you know, you don't want to get too worn out. You've been so tired. Like, no, no, it's fine. I can be tired at the end of the day. That's a good tire, though. You know, that's a great thing.

SPEAKER_03 28:13

The spa is also a fantastic place to uh explore and reflect on panicogenic relaxation because you're supposed to relax. Sure. Yeah. The spa.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

People like pay good money to go and let go, just let go, just like exist for an hour and a half or two hours. Yeah, go experiment with that. Roll those dice.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

Yeah, I remember the first time going to a spa actually having that or having a massage, and you you you do get like relaxed, and suddenly you get the pang. Do you get the pang? Just like bang. Yeah, you sure? And I'm like, I'm sure. Yeah. And I'm willing to have that pang for a minute or two, and it calms down. And then it goes, Are you sure? Sure. Pang. I'm like, Yeah, I'm fine. Yeah, I get it, man. I'm fine. I'm teaching you that this is okay.

SPEAKER_04 28:56

Yeah, it's it's really great when I I love that dialogue that you kind of conceptualize it. Are you sure? You know, because it's always gonna ask. You're like, No, no, no, it's okay, we're gonna finish this massage. Are you sure? That's almost literally what it's gonna do. You sure you want to do this, brother? Yeah, I'm sure. It's all good. Hang in there. We got this.

SPEAKER_03 29:12

And then you you let it play in the background like a radio. So and up next, are you on are you sure FM? Are you sure what if you have a heart attack? What if you freak out? What if you sweat? What if you embarrass yourself? What if you have a stroke? What if you die? What if you fall over? And I'm like, this tune's boring, man. Like, just I'm gonna listen to other things instead, and that's where the attention comes in.

SPEAKER_04 29:31

Are you sure FM? I would listen to that radio station 100%. Everyone with an anxiety disorder is Are You Sure FM? They are tuned into that. It's the only station that really rocks. Um I wanna well, in honor of Rocktober, which we just ended Rocktober. I want to read one. I found one, it's it's short and it's awesome. Um, hi guys, feel free to share, but please don't use my name, which we won't, no problem. Um, I have a bit of an unusual did in any way that I'm quite proud of. I have been self-medicating by severe panic and anxiety with weed and tobacco all day, every day for 13 years. Today is the first day that I did not use those substances, and let me tell you, the anxiety and craving was horrific. I actually gave my car keys to my mom so that I wouldn't be able to go out and get those substances. I'm still struggling today, but I'm really proud that I did that. That's amazing. That is amazing. That is a first step in a different direction, and that counts.

SPEAKER_03 30:32

That's so so good. Yeah, and the nicotine withdrawal must have been hell on earth.

SPEAKER_04 30:39

Yeah, every day for 13 years, you're gonna feel that if you stop, right?

SPEAKER_03 30:42

So, yeah, well done. Uh, what a compassionate thing to do to hand your keys to your mom, be like, No, I'm doing this for future me.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

Oh, I'm doing this for future me. That's 100% right. You know, a good reason to do it. Often people will ask you, like, well, I'm trying to find my why. Okay, yeah, you do need to find your why. And they'll try to look for like, if I could overcome this, then I'll I'll be able to go to Disney World and I'll get that job that I want, go back to school. How about if I can overcome this, I won't feel like a failure every effing day. That's another good reason why. So in this situation, I could see that being uh a factor for sure. Like, take these keys, because if I go out and buy cigarettes right now, I'm gonna be so angry with myself. I'm gonna be disappointed in myself, and I don't want to feel that. So, you know, let yourself off the hook.

SPEAKER_03 31:25

Best I can do is nicotine withdrawal. Best I can do. Yeah, well done. That's so good. That's great, man. Uh, and and make sure you give yourself a pat on the back with it for that.

SPEAKER_04 31:37

Yeah, 100%. Um, we got I got one more audio if we want to play it. Let's do it. Yeah, well, let's do an audio. Yeah, here we go.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Hey Josh and Drew, this is Zach from Texas. Uh, you can go ahead and use my name. Uh, I wanted to share, did it anyway, that uh over this past weekend uh I drove for 12 hours uh by myself, um six hours to my destination and six hours back. Uh as recently as two weeks ago, I might have told you that that was completely impossible. Um I struggle with driving anxiety, uh, and I have health anxiety that also is act uh uh exacerbated by the uh anxiety I experience while driving. Um I thought I would be in the middle of nowhere, and if I had a panic attack or a heart attack or I lost my mind, then no one would be able to help me, I wouldn't be able to call anyone, etc. etc. Um But on Friday I made the first part of the drive and it was scary. Um but in the first 20 to 30 minutes I was real anxious, but then it ended up being kind of great. It was like a lovely drive, it was a beautiful day, I was listening to music, uh, I got lost in my own thoughts, daydreams, etc. Um, and I remember that I I used to love road trips and I used to love uh driving around by myself. Then on Sunday, uh I drove back and I was out of my routine. I I didn't get to like eat healthy meals that make me feel good. I didn't get to do my yoga, I didn't get to meditate, uh I was completely out of my routine, and when I first left, I was really anxious and I thought I was gonna have a heart attack, and I could feel my heart uh about to burst. Uh, and then I I got through it. Uh it lasted for like 20 minutes, and then the rest of the drive was awesome, and I feel really uh encouraged, and uh yeah, thanks for all you do.

SPEAKER_04 33:42

Damn, and the rest of the drive was awesome, and everything that did it anyway, everything. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

Yeah, well done. That was that's outstanding. Really good, and uh what yeah, I'm and I'm glad the rest of the drive was awesome. You deserve that.

SPEAKER_04 33:57

But you know, my favorite part of that was he had not optimized. I wasn't, I didn't do my yoga, my meditation, I didn't eat my special healthy meals, so I could be ready, I could be calm, I could be optimized. That was you, wasn't it? You used to do stuff like that. I used to do stuff like that all the time. So I love that Zach was like, Well, I gotta drive home. 12 hours of driving in Texas, by the way, is like a third of the state. Texas is stupid huge, it's ridiculous. Like New York is big, Texas is stupid big. So, like, yeah, we're really unnerving to drive across Texas, just nothing. Just nothing. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Yeah, because often uh, you know, and I I think we should do an episode on that actually. It's um how big Texas is the rescue, the rescuing. How big Texas today we're gonna talk about how big Texas is yeah, and just about that being rescued. Like, oh my god, I'm in I need to feel rescued just in case I break out, uh, which is something I learned from you. Um, so yeah, today's been about panicogenic relaxation. Um, I had a panic attack from that, where I was really into meditation many years ago. And I was going to, I think it was Vipassana meditation or something, and I was going every week and I was enjoying it and feeling relaxed, and suddenly, you know, bang in the middle of meditation. And you can tell people in that meditation room are not anxiety disorder informed because they all interpreted my panic attack as, oh, you've been to a deep place. I was like, no, I just had an adrenaline dump because I've had years of habit, habitual scanning, checking, and being in fight or flight mode. That it just I got so relaxed that it was like, Are you sure this is okay? Bang! And I'm looking around the room, I turn into a beached eel, everyone else is there, like reaching Nirvana, whatever. And I remember going, Ah, yeah, it's because I was relaxed, and that's okay. I did leave and then for like a minute, and then I went back in. I was like, No, no, no, I know what this isn't so good. I'm fine.

SPEAKER_04 35:53

Yeah, amazing how that response was though, right? Like, oh, what came up? Nothing. I noticed the pain in my shoulder, and that was enough. Like, nothing came up, you know.

SPEAKER_03 36:01

I just felt like a sucking feeling, like, whoa, I've not felt this relaxed for so long, you know. And it's weird when your muscles relax, your body feels weird. It's like, oh, I'm not in a constant state of brace.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

Yeah, imagine that. Like, this is what it feels like to not be like coiled up like a spring all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is we get used to. So very good. I hear you. Anyway, I think we're good. 37 minutes, more than enough time.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

Keep the Did It Anyways coming at disorder.fm. Uh sign up to mailing list. Uh, look out for our upcoming book and our app, uh, which will come. Um, we're just ironing out a few things. And um, yeah, thanks for tuning in. We're here every Friday.

SPEAKER_04 36:42

Yeah, don't know what we're gonna talk about next week, but we'll be here talking about something. Thanks for hanging out, guys.