Anxiety Recovery: Worse Before Better - Part II (Episode 110)

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Feel worse before we feel better. Yeah, the only way to get through this stuff is to feel this stuff. Okay, I'm doing the things now, I'm doing my exposures, or I'm doing willful tolerance, or I'm adopting acceptance strategies, and it's getting worse. But is it?

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Maybe you're just feeling something horrible, you conceptualize it as it being worse. Practicing willful tolerance, which means I am going to feel more intense things in the short run, so I can feel less intense things in the long run.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

No, no, no. Remind yourself when you wake up in the morning, I'm picking the path of tolerance or acceptance today. So that means I'm gonna feel it. I expect that to happen. Feeling it more is part of the equation, and I think that inner critical quickly, but that's not pleasant. I don't like that. So that means it shouldn't be part of the equation.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

Welcome to Disorder. This is episode 110, entitled, It Gets Worse Before It Gets Better. A bit like having your back waxed. My name's Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist and author who specializes in the topic of anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm a previous sufferer of OCD, panic disorder, agrophobia, social anxiety, and IBS, weirdly. Um I can't wait to do this episode today. Um 110 episodes with my fellow podcast co-host. And uh just a nice uh thank you for tuning in and uh over to my co-host.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

And I am Drew Linsalata. That does get worse before better, by the way. That was a really good example. I don't know where you pulled that out, but it was really good. Anyway, I am Drew Linsalata, the other guy behind the mic at co-ho at uh behind the mic at disordered. Um, also a therapist practicing in New York and specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders. Also a former sufferer, an author, social media guy. If you've heard 109 of these before, you know who we are. So let's just get rocking right into it. Worse before better. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 2:05

I don't know. Can you think of any other examples of things that get worse before they get better?

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Well, as soon as you gave that crazy example in the opening, I my mind was starting to turn. Like, what does get worse before we get better? Like almost anything you do that improves you feels like you feel worse before you feel better. If you want to get stronger, you know, while you're lifting those heavy weights, that doesn't feel good. You're shaking, you're sweating, you're like, you know, gasping for air, things hurt, and then over time, well, okay, I got stronger because I did that. So almost that makes a change, is worse, worse before better, no?

SPEAKER_03 2:41

Yeah, like public speaking, I found personally like the first time you do some public speaking, you you suck. But then you slowly with the experience you get you get better. But um, in the context of anxiety disorders, yes, you know, things often feel better, and I'm gonna underline and embolden that feel worse before they're getting better, but recovering from anxiety requires us to kind of relinquish that control and relinquish the resistance and feel worse before we feel better.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Yeah, the only way to get through this stuff is to feel this stuff. You know, the other day somebody threw out the whole, you know, you gotta feel it to heal it. And you know, we've all heard that a million times, it's all over the place. Gotta feel it to heal it. And I'm like, how come we're in that? We're we all buy into that elsewhere, but in this thing, oh no, no, no, don't tell me that. I don't I don't want to feel this. So how can we buy it with other stuff? You know, whatever your relationship breaks up or whatever, I gotta feel it to heal it, man. And like, oh yeah, I get it. But in this, like, no, I don't, that's can't be true for this, but it is, and since you feel it, often people will say, Okay, I'm doing the things now, I'm doing my exposures, or I'm doing willful tolerance, or I'm adopting acceptance strategies, and it's getting worse. But is it?

SPEAKER_03 4:00

Yeah, no, yeah. Maybe you're just feeling something horrible, but the resistance makes it stick around, so you conceptualize it as it being worse. We have a great example though. We were sent in a did it anyway. Um, and if you want to send in questions or did it anyways, you can do that at disordered.fm. But uh, I heard this one this morning and it was uh absolutely belting. Have you got it, Drew? We do. Let's play it.

SPEAKER_06 4:28

Hey Josh and Drew. My name is Liz, and you can of course use my name. Um, so I had a panic attack last night, and it was at a really bad time. I was with my boyfriend, you can assume the rest. Um, and actually, it was the first panic attack that I've had that I was able to just sit there and I watched my my hands do that claw thing that they do, and I get overwhelmed. And I didn't care. I was like, oh well, this is happening. Um, guess I will just wait it out. So my boyfriend waited with me, and then afterwards it passed, and I was so proud of myself. I didn't spiral, I didn't freak out and ask, what's happening? What's wrong with me? Am I dying? Um, so then we ate pizza and cookies afterwards, and today he brought me flowers um because I was feeling a little self-conscious about it, but thank you guys so much for all the help that you do. It is truly just so empowering listening listening to everyone's did it anyway, and I'm just so proud of myself. And today I feel a little bit on edge, like, oh, what if it happens again? What if I feel that way? But I know that even if it does, I will be okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Hell yeah. That applause is also for Liz's boyfriend.

SPEAKER_03 5:55

Good job, dude. Yeah, I mean, that that's brilliant, that had everything, didn't it? It did willing for things to be worse before they get better. And I bet the pizza and cookies tasted even nicer after that. Um, and not just down to the fluctuating blood sugars that occur during an anxiety attack, but because of you should be proud of yourself. And I love the afterwards bit as well. Like I'm noticing that hypervigilance, then it might happen again, but then I'm reminding myself of what the goal is. It's okay. If I want to fully get better from this, I expect it. Bring it on. You know, I'm willing to feel worse because my eyes are on getting better in the future. Superb.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

If I did it last night, I could do it again today. So important. Like, do not forget that. If you did it, that means you did it. It wasn't a fluke. So great job. The only thing I would like to Liz, if you're listening, and by the way, thanks for sharing. If you're if your hands get that claw thing, like literally lock into claws, please don't overbreat. That means you're hyperventilating. You can do something about that. So the the claw thing, if your hands and feet lock into claws, that's the and you're hyperventilating and you get all numb and tingly, and bam, you get that carpoedal spasm. So that doesn't have to happen.

SPEAKER_03 7:08

Yeah, and but even if so, even if that happens, your body will regulate itself, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:14

It always does.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

It knows what to do.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

Go ahead. Regulate the best regulator, the human body knows how to do that on its own.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

It's really good at it. So yeah, it does, you know, unless you've got medical conditions, stuff like that. If it does the claw thing, yeah, you know, you just keep going, your body will just yeah, regulate itself. But yeah, like Drew says, if you, you know, you've got too much oxygen on board, then, so don't worry about that. Uh, because a lot of the things we hear a lot is the air hunger thing. You hear that we must get that quite a lot, do you know, where like oh I can't get enough oxygen. It's like, no, no, you've got too much. And your body's like, we have too much oxygen, so I'm gonna do loads of weird stuff so you don't keep taking in oxygen. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Yeah, yeah. Blood gas mix is a thing. Like, we need carbon dioxide in our blood, it has to be there. Like, that's part of the deal. So, like, I get it. Anyway, good job, Liz. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Worse before better. I think Claire Weeks wrote about that. I at some point she did mention, I think in one of her books or whatever, whatever the book is called in your country, because they're all called different things in different countries, it seems. I believe she even mentioned that. Yeah, yeah. Well, hope and helping your nerves here is not called that in the UK. But now at this point, they've circulated all over the world, so it's mix and match. But they're the same book in different titles. But she did say that it might get worse, it could get worse before it gets better. But I always say, like, did it get worse or do you feel more? Because it's kind of a simple thing. I always feel like, well, if I am hiding, like if every time I see Josh on the street corner, he like you know, tweaks me in the nose and he like pin, like does my the nose thing with a tweak, which would be really super annoying. But so when I see him coming, I hide. I like duck behind the wall.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

He tries to human.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Right. I duck behind him, like he doesn't really get me, so it's not that bad. But then I'm like, no, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna hide from this anymore and let him do it. Yeah, I would feel it more because I stopped running from it. That wouldn't be like, oh, it's getting worse. No, I'm I feel it because I'm standing up to it. Like I'm I'm letting it happen. So of course, uh, you know, nine times out of ten, it gets worse, just means I am actually feeling it now. Instead of doing all of my escaping and avoiding and distracting and dampening it and trying to get away from it. Like, no, I'm just sitting there in the storm, letting it blow at me. Like, of course you're gonna feel it.

SPEAKER_03 9:33

And and that's where, like, you know, willful tolerance comes in, because you know, if if you're purposely choosing to feel more, like Drew says, I remember doing it myself, you know, doing a driving anxiety exposure. I'm not actively saying to myself, oh, I'm making things worse for the long run, like in the short term. I'm actually saying, I'm willing, I'm practicing willful tolerance, which means I am going to feel more intense things in the short run, so I can feel less intense things as regularly in the long run. You know, I'm always I can always feel intense things, I just would rather feel them less uh in a more, you know, you know, I hate this word, but you know, like regulated state, more day-to-day regulated state. Yeah. Um and so, yes, I think it's a really important point that you've made, true. It feels more. Doesn't mean it's worse. You're just feeling more.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

It always felt that way. You were just running from it or hiding from it or distracting from it. And so I one of the things that I try and do, like, especially with my therapy clients, is like we always got to have expectations aligned. Like, okay, if you want to do this, which is great, like I want to do acceptance, I want to do mindfulness, I want to do willful tolerance, I want to do exposures. Can we please? I usually like, hey, how about a couple of framing statements? When you wake up in the morning, today I am choosing to feel my anxiety. So it's not a surprise. Remind yourself that I have picked this path. Like, it's much better than like, well, I want to do acceptance, but I also am going to try not to feel it so that if I do feel it, then I draw conclusions like this doesn't work or it's getting worse. No, no, no. Remind yourself when you wake up in the morning, I'm picking the path of tolerance or acceptance today. So that means I'm gonna feel it. I expect that to happen. I guess if you don't, it's a bonus day, that's great. But like I I expect to feel that. So before you go into the exposure, or if you decide this is the way, I want to do it this way, please keep reminding yourself that you're supposed to feel it. Otherwise, you can draw this conclusion accidentally.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

Where can Craig the Critic get kind of involved here?

SPEAKER_01 11:44

I think he can get involved in about 15 different ways all the time. He's the sneakiest mofo because he'll find every little nook and cranny to find you know to get into. Sometimes I think it shows up right away for the person who and and Craig the Critic will leverage your desire to feel better, which is okay. You can want to feel better. We want to take that away from it. We want you to feel better too. But when you want to feel better, really bad, he'll jump in and say, See, this doesn't work, you're not doing it right. You didn't do it right, it's not you're not feeling better. So, like, like the dude it's Craig the critic. He will use your own desires against you. Come on, man, that's not cool.

SPEAKER_03 12:18

So, yeah, he wants instant results as well, doesn't he? It's always like, if you haven't got the result instantly, then you have failed or you're not doing it right. Yeah, you know, uh, you know, and it's like, well, no, really, that's not you can't use this instant fix thing as a metric of my failures. The whole thing is to be with all the feelings, even the feelings of failure sometimes. If you're out and about and you're doing an exposure and you're feeling not only anxiety, but feelings of shame, sadness, and feelings of being an imposter and not good enough, or comparing yourself to other people, you're also exposing yourself to that as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Yeah. You know, there's there was that we don't hear it that much anymore. I think it might have been one of last year's buzzwords, the high functioning thing, high functioning anxiety, high functioningness, I hated it. But it he might pop up too, Craig the Critic, in that situation. So if you're the kind of person that is struggling with the problem we talk about here all the time, but you're working over time to hide it, you're still going to work, you're still going to school, you're still taking care of your family, you're still in your relationships, and you're trying to gloss over it. When you go into exposure, willful tolerance, acceptance mode, it gets much harder to gloss over it. Like it's right in your face. You're you're openly acknowledging I have this problem and I'm working on it. And I think that's an attack point for the inner critic, too, where it's like, oh yeah, but now everybody can see it, like it's gonna get it's getting worse, and like this isn't this is a bad idea, like because now you're not functioning so well. Because if you feel it so much, it's gonna incapacitate you and you're gonna lose your job and you're not gonna be a good mom. And so feeling it more is part of the equation. And I think that inner critic will quickly like, but that's not pleasant. I don't like that. So that means it shouldn't be part of the equation.

SPEAKER_03 14:19

This feeds really nicely, actually. We we received a really good question, actually. We we were gonna leave it to the end, but I think we should play it now because it feeds in beautifully to this topic. Uh, we got that question on we do.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Let's play it. I haven't listened to it, so it's new to me, but here we go.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Hi Drew and Josh. This is Brian from Wisconsin. You can use my name if you wish. My question revolves around exposure therapy as well as avoidance. Uh, and I'm trying to understand both of them. Um, you know, in in the situation that I have, I avoided going to a coffee shop once because uh I you know cried once there. And um, I I don't know if that's you know should be something that I I you know try to go back and do. You know, my my anxiety stems around from being alone. I know the exact instance um that you know caused it. It's something that I worked through and keep working through with my counselor, and I actually refer to you guys a lot because I find your information very valuable. So I'm trying to discern between the two, you know, like if in this situation, um do I not go to the coffee shop because I want to avoid crying, or should I go because it's part of the you know uh exposure therapy? And I just learning trying to learn everything I possibly can about how to teach my brain that not everything is a threat. Like everything in our world, I want to make sure that it happens quick and fast and you know it's it's easily solved. So thank you very much. I enjoy everything you do.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Your question, what do you think about that one?

SPEAKER_03 15:57

I think it's great, it feeds into what we've uh been talking about already, in the sense that, yeah, okay. Do I go into the coffee shop because I'm afraid of feeling anxious or feeling upset? Um, yeah, I would say, you know, obviously work with your therapist and plan it out. But a lot of what willful tolerance acceptance stuff is, is it isn't just the feeling of anxiety. Anxiety can be sometimes the core feeling, but it often comes with other feelings too. And I think part of willful tolerance is just being with what comes up. Um if you have shame around being seen to be upset, then you could challenge that too. No, you know, the the coffee shop isn't all gonna stand up and start, you know, pointing and laughing at you. Uh, you know, and um I would I would definitely do that, but know that actually that's okay. You're willing to feel feel worse in air quotes, as opposed to, you know, you you you're gonna feel the the less um desired emotions as opposed to the ones that you really want. But I think genuinely, if you do things like that, Brian, great question, it also puts all the emotions you want into context. I would wager that if you did that compassionately and you did your exposure and you overcame that hurdle, you would access your other feelings that you want to uh experience a bit easier because you've got that monkey off your back. You know, and I think I think go do it. Also, it's great. I'm I made a hobby about crying in pub in public places, it's really fun, especially when you're just constantly craving attention. I just go go into people's birthday parties and just start crying in front of everyone, you know, going to people honestly, it's just great fun, honestly. They uh there was I was on the tram the other day and there was a school visit, class of 30 kids, and I just started crying because I wanted to. I didn't really, I'm just being silly. But um, what I'm saying is for through being irreverent, is that it's okay, you know, it doesn't make you any less of a man or soft or you would you're being brave and and just be okay with whatever emotions come up.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

That's an you know, I think it's interesting because exposure and avoidance, like we do exposure to eliminate avoidance, because the problem is that the avoidance seems like a good thing to do because you don't want to have these experiences, whatever it is, whether it's panic or or big emotions or tears or whatever it is, I don't want that. I don't that makes me feel bad for a variety of reasons, so I avoid it, but then it that has a negative cost in my life. So, how do I stop doing that? Well, I have to learn to work through the thing that I'm trying to avoid. So the principle, the reason we only use exposure to eliminate avoidance. So that's how the two things are related. It's you know, to answer some of the core question, I think. And whether it's exposure isn't just in panic disorder or agoraphobia or OCD. Like, even people who, and you know, you might say, Well, I have a fear of being alone. Okay, well, maybe I don't we don't know your specific thing, but a lot of people are rushing in right now in their own heads thinking, oh, he has anxious attachment problems and he has abandonment anxiety. Well, maybe we don't know, you know, but even in those situations, in the end, the path is always through. It's always through. There's some form of exposing yourself to memories, thoughts, you know, ideas, emotions that you don't want to have. That's always the way through. So whether you're driving on the highway, walking around the block, going to the mailbox, staying home alone, or telling stories that are painful to you in a safe place where you get understanding and support so you can work through them, it's all the same.

SPEAKER_03 19:31

So it sounds like bro sounds like Brian's doing a good job as well, the sense of, you know, I take it to a counselor and stuff like that. So you're more than you're more than prepared.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Yeah, but there's always that sense of feeling worse. Nobody wants to, I know, when you work with your therapy clients, no, they're we talk about this all the time. Nobody walks in the door just as an anxiety disorder. Oh, panic disorder doesn't walk in the door, a human being walks in the door. And nine times out of ten, some other stuff is gonna come up, and often I will, and I understand why it's unpleasant. People are like, Oh, I I don't, I don't really want to go there. They're you know, insightful enough to understand that, like, oh, I've been trying not to think about that for years. Like, okay, but we can't we can't pretend to not be human, that's gonna be a problem. So and then they they feel worse because they start to talk about things that have been bothering them and they've been trying to keep a lid on for so many years, and guess what? They feel worse at first.

SPEAKER_03 20:23

We don't really talk about that on this podcast often, but it's a really important point. You know, you can't not compartmentalize being willing to be with uncomfortable feelings, whether it's panic attacks in a local shop or uncomfortable feelings that come up from something that you've been wishing to talk about for a long time, something in your personal life. Trying to compartmentalize them both. And often when I'll say to clients is that, you know, do you want to talk about the bad thing in here that happened or whatever, and build up bravery to doing that? Because that's still, in a sense, going toe to toe with fear, that is still an exposure. Willing to feel worse before you feel get better applies not only to anxiety disorders, but your life holistically. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

And I think it's, you know, it's easy. What's tough is in a scroll or in a YouTube video or a podcast, like where we can't get that nuance and we can't get to know you, you start to hear things like it sounds so mechanical, right? Like you face the rapid heartbeat or the air hunger or the jelly legs or the you know, the scary thought about doing something, you know, that goes against your values or whatever it is. That's true. But it's not always as simple. We will say, like, well, that is interpreted as a threat, and you try to get away from the threat. That is correct. But how the threat interpretation is formed, there's a huge constellation of experiences and memories and beliefs and culture that make that threat interpretation. So that is gonna come out as you work individually with somebody who's trying to help. You. And I think in that situation, you will open a can of worms in a lot of instances. Why do I see this as a threat? Oh my goodness, a bunch of stuff comes, you know, flying out in a therapy session. And guess what? If you let it come flying out and you have to start to confront that, you feel worse in that moment. You do. But then that's the path to better. So worse before better, this really went and took a different path than I thought the topic would. But yeah, if you're going to allow yourself to feel things or remember things or access things or challenge things, maybe family beliefs and stuff that feel difficult to challenge, you will feel worse while you do that. That's just the way it goes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Doesn't mean you do it.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

But you will, but you'll learn so much from it as well. You know, yeah, 100%. You you really will. I mean, and what I what I loved about kind of not only Brian's question, but what he was willing to share is that actually this exposure is symbolic for me. And I know why. I've I've been to therapy, and what I inferred from that is that okay, this isn't just I'm afraid of panic or being emotional in a coffee shop. This is symbolic for me. There's another fear there. Actually, maybe it is I'm facing the taunting demons of being alone, which is one of my fears. And yes, I don't like the anxiety. And yes, I've got to sit and order them matcha latte and sit on my own. But actually, I'm I'm I'm juggling a few fears here. Uh, does it make the exposure twice as hard? It's debatable. Um, but uh, you know, you could be killing two birds with one stone at the same time with that willingness to feel.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

But I, you know, I think we could, I might argue those feelings have always been there. You know, that the anxiety has always been there, the symptoms have always been there, the intrusive thoughts have always been there. If you run from them or hide or or try to distract from them or drown them out, or you have feelings that you keep bottled up inside of you, and you know, I don't want to think about that, so I better scroll more on my phone or have another drink or whatever you do. It's okay, everybody develops coping mechanisms. They were always there, so they don't get worse, they just come out. They were always there. So, like it's not worse, it just comes out, and then you your subjective experience in the moment you would say is worse. That's correct.

SPEAKER_03 24:17

But do you know what gets worse and then doesn't get better? Oh no. Trying to post on social media about helpful psychoeducational content about anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

It never gets better, it just keeps getting it actually keeps getting worse.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

You know, you know, you're you're up against people chopping fruit in half with samurai swords. There's just no way no one wants to hear that. And what we have to say.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

I know. I I pulled out bananas impact drills, like harmonics. I love that one. No one cares. So can you just please tell me 10 reasons why anxiety feels this way? Oh no, I won't tell you that.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

Anyway, sorry. I've been doing those recently. 10 signs of an anxiety disorder. And if you look really closely on the video, scroll into my eyes, and you'll see that I'm a little bit dead inside. But I'm I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

It's just zombie eyes, like Barbie doll eyes. Yeah, they're just doing it for the for the gram.

SPEAKER_04 25:19

The gram for the gram. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Uh, but worse before better is a universal experience, and it it sucks. Nobody wants you to feel worse, of course. But you I know you don't want to feel worse, but like that's kind of part of the deal. So I'll just go back to what I said before. Expect it. I hate that, but it's so it's really weird to tell somebody like, hey, when you wake up in the morning, one of the first things you might want to say to yourself is, I expect to be anxious today. I'm gonna, I'm probably gonna be really uncomfortable today. Like, what that's so it runs so counter to like general pop psychology advice. You know, expect it to fly store today, like open your wings, choose happiness, vibrate, high free. No, no, today expect it. You'll probably be really uncomfortable at some point. So that when you do, you're not blindsided and you don't use that moment to declare failure, hopelessness, weakness, I can't do this, this doesn't work. Like, no, I chose this today.

SPEAKER_03 26:11

I was trying to this one of the most important cognitive reframes in one of my I know I've said it before on this podcast, but like one of the main homeworks I set for people and clients is you know, right, for this week, we're gonna practice being anxious. How good are you at being anxious? How many things could you do with those feelings of anxiety and uncertainty and the symptoms, etc.? Because the last thing I want to hear, it's not the last thing I want to hear, but no, if you come in being like, I was completely anxiety-free the whole week, one, that's great because you know I don't want you to suffer. But two, where's the real learning happening? I I need you as a therapist to learn that things can get worse before they get better for the long term, for future you, because you're teaching yourself resilience, compassion, you are the coping technique, etc. Um, but also the reframes are really helpful for people because as soon as they feel all those feelings they don't like, rather than the habit of falling into no get-rid, neutralize, compulsions, safety behaviors, instead, they have that voice going, No, this is my homework. Yeah, this is my homework. I have to I I just have to be with this, and then I can write it down, and then I'll go back to to therapy and say, Oh, I managed to do this while I was anxious, and this while I was anxious. I have a whole list of did it anyways. An anxiety recovery I will propose Drew is one continuous homework of that, except the incidents get less and less, the challenges get less and less, but never losing the mindset of okay. If I get anxious, I could just go remember my homework. I remembered that really vital, important cognitive reframe, which is I could go weeks without anxiety now. I'm X and X recovered, whatever, and then you'd be like, Oh, actually Wow, ooh, I've not felt that for a long time. Always remembering that that cognitive reframe that you insert. So if you're that person who's always like, Oh, I'm doing so well, I haven't been anxious so long, but now it's back and now it's getting worse. You forgot that cognitive reframe. The reframe is, oh no, how good am I at being anxious? Because if it worked in those short few months, few weeks, why would you stop doing it? And that's what I do now.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Yeah, I love that. Why would you stop doing like it? Why do you think you were feeling better for three weeks? Because you were doing that, you were practicing feeling worse. So I get that. I I sometimes when people do that, I it's getting worse. Like I tried that. I had somebody yesterday say, like, I did that mindfulness thing, and like, oh, it got so it was so bad, it got worse. Like, well, then you let yourself feel it for 10 minutes in the practice. But I think one of the things, and this is nobody's fault. This is not a flaw, this is almost universal. If you're at the point where you are saying, I tried acceptance and it made it worse, I think you are you're experiencing the conflict between I really agree when I hear these two goofballs with the microphones talk about acceptance and tolerance and non-resistance. I really, that seems right, but I still am hanging on like hot death with my fingernails to the idea that I can do this without feeling. It's a paradox as well, because no part of you is accepting it. 100%. And that's okay. It's really okay. Oh, and I say like you get there when you get there. But I I feel like everybody who has ever read a book that we wrote or listened to this podcast or whatever sees on social media might say, Yeah, I think this team's right. I'm gonna do that. I'm gonna do acceptance. But there's still some part of you that's like, when like Mike Tyson always said, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. And that happens, but that's okay because when acceptance starts to feel bad, that other belief is still hanging in there. Like, no, no, no, no, no, we don't want it. Like I don't want it like this. That's okay. Just recognize that. So if you're asking why it's getting worse, recognize that you may be confronting the conflict between I want to do it this way, but I still am hoping inside of me that today is the day on disordered that they tell me how to not feel this way. And I I don't want I'm trying to control it. I still, that's okay. You'll shift as you shift, you'll get there when you get there. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 30:38

You could use a kind of devil's gambit as well. Like I I take anyone from this podcast, maybe they've got they haven't got on public transport for years, you know. And you said, right, here's a million bucks. Will you sit on that train for 30 minutes? Or you'll see some form of acceptance then. Yeah, oh, okay. Yeah, well, it's worth it in the end because I'll feel like crap for 30 minutes. Yeah, I'll feel awful. But what my mind's on is the end goal. Yeah, I'll get a million bucks, you know. I can do that, you know, and there'll be that internal conflict where I don't want to do it, but the end justifies the means. Now, if you can take that mentality and just apply that, well, there isn't a million bucks at the end, but I'll tell you what, there's freedom and there's choice and all that, or you're onto a right winner, you know. Um, yeah. It's really hard. Would I take a million bucks to read Jay Shetty's book? That's a difficult one. Just a million? It's just some exposures are too much.

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Any more than that. If somebody had said I'll give you a million dollars to drive, you know, like into the Midtown tunnel when I was at my worst, you know, into Manhattan. Would I would I've done it? Yeah, I'll probably have done it. Yeah, I couldn't. A million, yeah. I think a million bucks, 100%. Yeah, sure. And I think what's interesting about that is I know it's gonna feel really bad. There, I'm like, worst is fine. But I think one of the things to think about is a different topic altogether, but I'm getting so deep into this lately. There, there's a coherent story in your mind. Like in 30 minutes, when I get done with this, I'm getting a million dollars. That's a story that is coherent, it makes sense, there's a resolution, we don't have to think that much about it. But if I get really uncomfortable for 30 minutes today on purpose, I think I got to do it again tomorrow, and then on Tuesday, and then like 16 times next week, and then one day I might be able to go to my grandma's birthday party without being free. There's there's not a very easy-to-tell narrative, coherent story there. So it's really easy for that part of looks for the quick story. I need a story to convince me I can't find a story there, so no, we're not doing it. This is worse than that.

SPEAKER_03 32:51

So that is such a good uh we should have included that in our narrative episode. We can probably talk more about that, but it's really what motivates you to do it. And the, you know, I know it's a silly analogy, you know, I'll give you a million buttons, you know, unless you're Mr. Beast who'll do something like that, having infinite wealth, like you can just do that, you know, like go and freak out over there, and I'll give you a million bucks and forget your name in five minutes, you know. Um, but yeah, I think what is the motivational goal there? Feeling worse to feel better. Well, imagine what better looks like. What is that million bucks? You know, what does it look like to you? Well, maybe that million bucks is actually hanging out with my children in the park, or you know, going to something I've always wanted to do, or going back to education, or uh going for a job promotion or something. What is that to you? And and use that. Well, I'm willing to feel worse now because I know my million bucks is over there and I'm gonna feel better.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Yeah, yeah, it's really hard. It's that's a hard logic self for your brain, though. At a minimum, just remember, well, I know that I I this makes me feel worse. So therefore, that like story making part of my brain is gonna attach to that. I know that going in. I'm gonna feel worse today because I've chosen acceptance or exposure or whatever you're doing. And the story making part of my brain will instantly latch on to a very easy-to-tell story. If you get in that car, you're gonna feel like shit for 40 minutes. That's correct, really easy story. We all recognize it. So, no, I'm gonna give you a big no. Says that part of your brain. You gotta realize where that's coming from. And then, like, yeah, but wait a minute, I gotta kind of override that a little bit because, like they were saying on disorder, like there's benefits later. Can I can I access that a little bit and you know, to at least override that part of my brain a little bit?

SPEAKER_03 34:37

If I got into your car, I'd feel like shit. I mean, you could kind of even see the gear stick because all the Wendy's wrappers and cigars and what hey.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

I used to be like the worst. Now I have, you know, like I'm violently con environmentally conscious, I've like a hydroflask or whatever, but my car would be full of water bottles. Like just crunch. If you sat in the passenger, my car would just be crunch, crunch, crunch, like Poland's that I have yet to throw in the respect. It's not like that anymore, but that was my that was my my red flag. Like, dude, how much water do you drink? A lot. So that's what I uh this is a really good topic today.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Um, so we got any stuff from the community. You guys did it anyways, haven't we? We do. We have a couple of reads. You want to read yours first?

SPEAKER_03 35:22

Sure, let me just get it up now. A really good one. I I love this one. Uh okay. Uh they didn't give permission to use the name, and I've taken some names out of the story because you know there's no permission there, but here we go. Uh it's a really powerful one. Hey guys, so thankful for you every day. You are helping me more than you know. Thank you. I developed severe health anxiety OCD after our third child died when he was just six weeks old, not so long ago. My anxiety has gotten progressively worse as the years go on. I wanted to submit a win I had recently. I did it. We had a fun vacation plan for our three children. Our youngest was sick prior to the trip, and any time my children get sick, my OCD spirals out of control. Well, that's pretty understandable, isn't it? And I land in any ER multiple times, attempting to get reassurance. This time I was so sick of my thoughts, I decided to put my phone away and be in the moment. We were able to not only avoid all doctors, but get away with our children and enjoy our trip, and our son fully recovered with zero issues. It was a huge win for me. Thanks for everything.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Oh, that's really great. I love it. Definitely uh I mean, mixed, you know, mixed emotions there, because it was certainly a difficult situation that got her into it.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

That's good, let's go one of that's got a real life did it anyway.

SPEAKER_03 36:55

Sometimes, you know, and like we said today, anxiety disorders are not just something mechanical that uh that turns up. And um, well done. You should be really proud of yourself, and I'm sure your family really enjoyed uh the holiday as well. Thanks to your courage and bravery.

SPEAKER_01 37:11

Excellent. Yeah, yeah. Those felt like really risky, especially given the past experience. I'm sure that felt so risky to not run to those emergency rooms and the doctors. So very brave, very good. Yeah, incredible. I got another one, I'll read mine. This one, this person say we can use. I gotta put my glasses back on because I can't, it's just a big smudge, right? Um, okay, yes, this week we can say this person's name. So she writes, Hi, my name is Ella. You can use my name, and I'd like to share a first did it anyway with you. Cool, maiden voyage from Ella. A couple of months ago, I went and had a facial done at a beauty salon. It's something I don't normally do, but I wanted to try it as I've been struggling with my skin. Yeah, me too. I really it's a problem. Um anyway, I went and did it, but I felt so anxious beforehand and during. I now understand I was focusing on my anxiety and the physical sensations and listening to Craig the Critic. I thought I was going to be sick. I felt so uncomfortable and I wanted to run out of there. Although I did it, I felt awful when I came out of the salon and I was so annoyed and upset with myself. For a few days after, my anxiety spiraled and I felt really low. I then thankfully discovered your podcast and I've learned so much. Today I went back for another facial. And although I brought a little of my anxiety along with me, it wasn't important to me. I didn't allow it to be the main focus. I managed to enjoy my facial and I felt a bit like my old self again, free and happy. Although I know I need to keep practicing these skills, I found hope in not techniqueifying and knowing that I can do this and actually finally feel more in control of my thoughts. So thank you. Really great. That is so awesome. I love this story. I love the story because it's a potential like setback or loss that Ella turned into a big win.

SPEAKER_03 38:52

Cannot love really great.

unknown 38:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:55

Both with both stories, you know, something out of that out of that. I think it, yeah, that I'd love it. Well done. And oh I'd love having a facial, it's really nice. Uh, although something that's outside of that, something that gets worse or gets better. Vitamin C serum for your face. Anyone apply that 20% vitamin C serum for your face, you put it on and you just sit there going, Ah it burns! Ah and but then you're like, oh looks all right. There we go. Fair enough. Worse before better, right? Yeah, worse for better. Well done. I love how you went back and I love that it's yep, you know. I took some anxiety with me, but it wasn't important. Lovely. Well done.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

51% attention, right? Like, I if I can give it's gonna be there, but like if I can give at least 51% of my attention to like the you know, the facial treatment that I'm getting or whatever, the manicure I'm getting, whatever you're pampering yourself, cool. I'm winning. Like I can have those feelings and still do this, so so good. Superb. I think we're good.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Yeah, that was good. I enjoyed that worse before better, and just remind yourself of that. Remember that cognitive reframe as well. How good can I be at being anxious today? With that acceptance of things willing to be worse before they get better.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Yeah, we wrap it up with reframe, not worse before better, more before less. That's your reframe for the day. It's not worse before better, it's more before less. More feelings before less. That's okay, it's allowed.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

More before less. It's a bit like Drew and I at a buffet.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

Nobody needs that image. I don't need that image, and I'm eating at the buffet. So, anyway. Well, thanks for listening, guys. We appreciate it. Um, if you're so inclined to maybe leave us a nice podcast review on Apple or Spotify, we always appreciate that. We got so many nice ones these days, too. It's really great. And um, I guess if you want to participate in an episode by asking us a question or sending it a did it anyway by email or to or voice, just go to disorder.fm. Dr. Friday. We're gonna talk about next time. Have a lovely weekend, guys. Yeah, we'll see you guys later. Thanks for listening. We're out.