Anxiety Recovery: What Is White Knuckling And How Do I Stop Doing It? (Ep 023)

SPEAKER_04 0:01

White knuckling for me was both an attitude of I can't wait to get out, and also of bracing, compulsively checking to see if the anxiety would disappear.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

I kind of feel like everybody does it that way first. It's okay. If I panic, which can happen to me maybe a couple times a year, maybe, probably in that first 60 seconds, I'm probably white knuckling a little bit. Just that recovery means that I catch it really fast and I let go.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

It's that metacognitive awareness of how quickly you can recognize that you're white knuckling. Yep. Compassionately bringing your attention to changing that behavior. White knucklers absolutely despise it being there as opposed to, I dislike this, but it can hang around if it wants to.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

A little bit at a time. People are going to always ask, so how do I stop white knuckling? A little bit at a time. That's the answer.

SPEAKER_04 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. Today's episode is on the topic of white knuckling. White knuckling through fear. My name is Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist based in the UK.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

And I am Drew Linsolata, the other co-host of Disordered. I am a graduate student in clinical mental health counseling, a podcaster, an author, therapist in training, all in the great state of New York here in the US of A. Welcome.

SPEAKER_04 1:18

White knuckling.

SPEAKER_03 1:20

How would you describe white knuckling? White knuckling is just hanging on. It's a it's a funny little phrase that I guess everybody sort of has agreed on over the past however many years. It's just white knuckling is just hanging on really tightly. Tight grip.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and and and it's it's it is a phrase, and we just want to uh a disclaimer like if this applies to anyone, it doesn't matter, you know, your race, gender, creed. Um, it's uh it's an old phrase that uh people kind of used um for people doing exposures, and it's something that I've personally done. Yep, um, and I'm sure you have Drew. Oh yeah, back back when we were struggling. Um, and it's really important to understand in the process of anxiety recovery uh and to acknowledge when you're doing it as well, because it can often be a huge stumbling block. Um, Drew and I were taking pleasure listening to the uh we had loads of voicemails, uh, we've listened to them all. Sorry we can't uh respond to them all, but um uh we really appreciate them and we had loads of messages as well. Uh but we've picked one out today um to that we feel that kind of feeds into today's topic, and we're gonna start on a nice positive note. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:33

So uh Drew, if you hit the decks, I will hit the decks and let's play this in it anyway because it it does fit in today's episode. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Hi there, my name's Dan. Um I'm from Leeds, England. Um, you can use my name if you want. Um, but today I did a massive thing. I was completely panicky this morning, the adrenaline was running. I had to go on a school trip with uh my daughter and her class, and um it involved getting on the coach. Um a bit well actually it was it ended up being a double decker bus and I hadn't been on one for about 13-14 years, so today I just had to get on one. Last time I was on one I had a panic, so today I just got on it and everything was rushing, but I just did it anyway. I got on there, did what I needed to do, ended up having a lovely time with everyone, um actually enjoying the uh bus ride back and um yeah just completely uh going with the flow. Um so yeah, I'm very proud of myself. I feel like a million dollars now. Um I definitely didn't think I'd be able to do it this morning, but here I am, back at home, very proud of myself. One happy daughter that I managed to go along with her. Um so yeah, just thought I'd share that. Thanks very much, guys. Bait absolute applause for that.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Didn't even have to cue the uh studio audience for that one. Uh well done, Dan. That was superb. It had everything. Yeah you know, you you obviously did it anyway, did something brave. 13 years since you got on a double deck of bus. Um and you stopped because you were afraid of how you felt, but then you applied the you know the the notion of willful tolerance. You went to do it anyway, yep. You did it for your daughter, she appreciated it. And what I really liked is that you know, you're proud of yourself for it. Uh well done.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

That's exactly that's exactly kind of what we um propagate here. Yeah, 100%. The thing I love about what Dan talked about is the part where he said, I just went with the flow. And that ties into, I think, you know, our topic of tight grip or white knuckling or hanging on so tightly and desperately when you're in that that situation where you're afraid. And it sounds like Dan like sort of let go of that tight grip and he just went with it, which is yeah, pretty much what we're talking about today.

SPEAKER_04 5:16

I can't imagine Dan, you know, grabbing onto the seat, squeezing, hoping, waiting, checking each road sign to see if he's there. And actually, he went with the flow, and uh eventually you you know the amygdala stopped, the threat response stopped. It I, you know, he recognized that nothing bad happened, and he ended up enjoying it as well, which is brilliant. And because this is what happens when you do exposures and you do them in the proper way. Well done, mate. Well done. It's the best thing anyone from Yorkshire has ever achieved.

SPEAKER_03 5:49

Wow. Shots fired early on in the episode. Uh very good, very good. So let's talk about like our own experience a little bit when it comes to white knuckling. How much, how much were you hanging on with that death grip in your early days?

SPEAKER_04 6:04

Well, I'll be kind to myself because I didn't have the correct psychoeducation when I was struggling a lot with anxiety and agrophobia. I used to white knuckle through everything. I you looked to um I had some kind of base-level CBT to kind of help me, but I didn't have the psychoeducation properly explained to me. So my initial um interpretation of exposure was go into the to the difficult place uh and then your anxiety will go away. Um, and don't get me wrong, there's cool stuff to be achieved if you go to a difficult place or do stuff that scares you. But what I didn't realize I was doing for years is that I was I was white knuckling, I was waiting for it to finish. I was my examples of white knuckling were going to a meeting uh and just staring at the clock, counting down till I could leave. Um, I would literally white knuckle in cars with people, particularly as um as a passenger. I would grip the side of the of the car and until you know my hands would would sweat and it would be horrible. I would just wait for it to end. Um, I'd go and walk through the park and just count and count and count till I could leave and pace. It it the white knuckling is for me was both half an attitude of I can't wait to get out, and also physically kind of just holding myself. It's like a bracing and just compulsively checking to see if just by being here the anxiety would disappear. Could I do this and shortcut experiencing feeling anxious um by just being here and bracing? And and yeah, I I that was a I'm not gonna say a mistake, it was just something that I applied for for a long time. And it was I was brave enough to go and do those difficult things, but this was a stumbling block on the way.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

What about you, Drew? Yeah, I I can tell a story of um white knuckling in the car for sure, hanging on like hot death, just trying to get through. I a friend of mine had invited me to watch um football on a Sunday afternoon, American football, and Sundays that's what we do here. And literally the drive was 10 minutes, 11 minutes. But to an agoraphobic, that I might as well have had to drive to Mars, right? It's a really long way. And I've been there many, many times. It is a straight run. There are no turns to make to get to his house. Yet I put I called up Google Maps and I had it on my phone, and I was watching it update as I went, you know.

SPEAKER_04 8:34

It was Oh, you were like constantly monitoring for waiting for it to be.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

Waiting, you know, how it would show you. And it's funny because that was back in the very early days. I was using data on my data plan. You know, it's 2G or 3G. I mean, it was a while ago. But I remember thinking, I don't care. Like, who cares about that? I need to see this map and I need to see how far I am. I knew how far I was, but I still I was watching it and watching it, and I was hanging on, and my shoulders were up around my ears, and my abdomen was all tight, like it was about to take a body blow from my tights. And it was it was such a tight grip on that trip I'll never never forget. But I I kind of feel like everybody does it that way first. It's okay. It's almost like the required first step. First, you do the things that you refuse to do. I previously I would have refused to do that. So it's better to at least start to do it, and maybe you're hanging on and white knuckling through, and then you start to realize, oh, wait a minute, I'm doing it, but I'm also I could do it better or I could do it more effectively. So I think it's a natural progression for people.

SPEAKER_04 9:38

What about white knuckling at home? So say you've not left the house or done these things, but you're just white knuckling through anxiety itself.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

Yeah, yeah. That would be and it it's funny because it it isn't sometimes it's physical, you know, you're you're white physically wound up, but other otherwise it's just a that constant stream of checking and checking and checking. Am I feeling any better now? How do I feel now? How is my heart rate now? I would check my pulse, I would check my breathing, I would check my temperature sometimes. Like all of that was white knuckling. I was just waiting to see if it was going to get better and trying to hang on until this particular wave of anxiety would pass, whether it was a little wave or a big wave, didn't matter. I was just trying to get through it.

SPEAKER_04 10:16

Yeah, it's really interesting. I remember um I would utilize anti-stress techniques. And I mean, even when you Google stuff like how to stop a panic attack and things, I would do things like box breathing and all this stuff. No, don't get me wrong, if you're stressed and all those things, but that's fine. But like for me, it was it was throwing everything at this feeling because I wanted it to pass quicker, you know. But actually, you know, the irony is and it was counterproductive, you know. Um, don't get me wrong, I didn't sit there zen-like, whilst panic and intense anxiety passed, like I am practicing willful tolerance, I am the omega of all anxiety. No, there were things that I do because you know, when you've got that amount of adrenaline pumping through you, it's it's tricky. So I probably would pace and and stuff like that. But the difference between pacing with the attitude of wanting to get rid of it very quickly, you know, like, oh, I'm bracing myself through this now, you know, my jaw, everything just pass as opposed to yeah, I'm gonna just pace because yeah, I'm all right. I'm okay. This anxiety will pass soon, but you know, I might as well give it a little bit of an outlet. There's a subtle difference there, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:33

Um, even when you're having anxiety at home, it's sometimes hard to see that difference too. And it's practice and repetition and experiences, and you get it wrong, air quotes wrong sometimes. It's okay, it's you're getting better at it as you practice it. So I can't I can't stress that enough.

SPEAKER_04 11:50

Yeah, but this you gotta it does go back to attitude again, and um it is a stumbling block when I when I've worked with clients in the past. Um, some of the exposures that we that I've done with with clients are kind of uh I went shopping. I went shopping and because it's something that non-anxious me would do, and that's great because that's one of the rules, or non-anxious me would do. But the it's the expectation, you know, of oh, I went into the shop and and and yeah, I looked at three pieces of clothing and I was still anxious when I got out. But I was like, Well, what was it like in the shop? You know, did you pick up something that you actually cared about? Like, no, not really. I just I was trying to simulate it in a way that uh that I just wanted anxiety to go away, like really quickly. Uh, and I was white knuckling my way through shopping as opposed to allowing it, surrendering to the feelings with the knowledge that it will pass, not getting angry at myself, not getting angry at the anxiety, but it will pass, and I don't mind it being here. White knucklers absolutely despise it being there as opposed to I disliked it. I dislike this, but it it can hang around if it wants to.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Yeah, I I think white knuckling or keeping that really tight grip is a reflection of I I still I'm gonna hang on to the idea that I have to hang on to this tight grip because I need it to go away as fast as possible. Not just I want it to, I need it to. And the hanging on and the tight grip and the white knuckling is part of what gets keeps me safe and gets me through this experience. So that attitude shift, and we talk about it all the time, but we have an episode of that, it's from May of 2023. I think it's episode 10. But that attitude shift is oh, I'm willing to at least entertain the possibility that these two knuckleheads on this podcast might be right, and I am safe and I can handle it. So let me let go just a little bit of my tight grip and and take a risk here that I might feel it all and it might last a little longer, but I can handle that. So I think it's driven by that belief that no, no, it's still too much. I can't handle it, and I'm not safe. I need it to end quick.

SPEAKER_04 14:01

Yeah. Yeah. Uh I invite people as well as they're trying to conceptualize white knuckling. You look at any look, if you look at a roller coaster, there's two types of people. You've got the people holding on for dear life, which is probably be me. I'm not gonna lie, I don't really like it, but I will go on a roller coaster. And then you've got the people with their arms and legs in the air surrendering to the peril. Um, it's okay, you know, you're not you don't have to if if you are that person on the roller coaster fair play, you're braver than I am. Um but look at that as a kind of microcosm of what it is when you're doing anxious exposures, yeah. And the fact that you've got the person who's holding on for dear life, waiting for the ride to end, you know, because they don't trust that they're safe. And then you've got the other person who is like, I know I'm safe. Yep, I'm being flown around, I'm enjoying the adrenaline, and I'm gonna end up at the same place as the person who's white knuckling anyway. Yeah, you know. Um, and and just apply that to your anxious exposures because it's probably the same amount of fear and fright that you would have on a roller coaster.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Oh, yeah, I would think that physiologically it's probably an identical experience. Your heart is racing, you're breathing fast, you know, all of the physical things they're gonna be the same. Whether you're excited or you're terrified, it's kind of the same physiology, as crazy as that sounds.

SPEAKER_04 15:29

Yeah, I mean, I can't apply this to, by the way, yeah, disclaimer. Like, I can't apply this if I was on a roller coaster. That would terrify me.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

Well, the third type of roller coaster person is the person on the ground taking video of his British friend wedding himself on the roller coaster. That's me. I'm I'm type of threat.

SPEAKER_04 15:48

You're white knuckling Josh, you know.

SPEAKER_03 15:50

Shut up, Drew. Doppler effect as you go flying by screaming for your life. But I I love the roller coaster analogy too, because at the end of that ride, there are two experiences, the same physical experience, but the two subjective experiences are that was great. It was scary, but it was exciting. I want to do it again because I can handle that. And the other experience of the white knuckler is I made it. Somehow I made it through this. So that all that tensing and fighting was like, oh, that that did it. That's what got me to the end of this ride. But you were gonna get to the end of that ride no matter what.

SPEAKER_04 16:25

Absolutely, yeah. Uh also while we're, you know, let's rinse this analogy because we're knuckleheads and have very limited content. Beating into the game. Um is like, okay, let's say you have white knuckles all the way around the ride. Why not for the last second, the last dip from big dip? You know what? I might have a go at just letting go a little bit and putting my hands in the air. Yeah, that's good too. Sure. You know, that's great. Or the second time you go on it, you're like, oh, I might might loosen my grip a little bit this time or whatever. And again, I think that's a good analogy for exposures because white knuckling isn't always bad, is it true?

SPEAKER_03 17:01

No, I mean, uh, we can't we have to avoid that like judgment of it's bad or it's good or it's I won or I failed. Well, no, you learned all the time, you had an experience. It's an experience. So as long as you could take something from it, it's not bad. What did I learn from that?

SPEAKER_04 17:16

Yeah, absolutely. Um I think it's you say this, don't you? Like, there's always positives to be taken by doing the scary things. Yeah, we're just talking about okay, you've managed to do that. Now here's the little next step. If you want to get keep going, that's fine. The win is there. You know, I I remember when I was struggling um the London and underground doing exposures there. I would, there's a on each carriage, there's like a pole in the middle, and I would only stand near the exit of the doors, and I would grip the pole quite literally, counting down till I could get to the next stop just in case I needed to get off. Um, and yeah, I'd white knuckle there and I'd want to get off. Um, another example is uh driving anxiety. Uh, if you have driving anxiety, go listen to our driving anxiety episode, it's really good. Um, I would literally grip the wheel to the point where my hands hurt, waiting to get to the exit junction on the motorway or highway. You know, I'm glad I did that. I wasn't going, oh my god, Josh, you're you're white knuckling here, whatever. I'm like, no, this is the point I'm at at the moment, and well done. What can I tweak a little bit now to get the most out of this?

SPEAKER_03 18:33

Yeah, and what can I tweak little by little? And I think one thing to keep in mind is initially, again, like I said earlier, if that was a ride on the underground that you would have never taken before, the fact that you were taking it now is a huge leap forward. So maybe you weren't taking it optimally, but so what? You still take the win. And now over time, it's a gradual change in the way you take that ride. It's not like, oh, I white knuckled the last time, I was hanging on. So this time, next time I'm gonna be totally loosey-goosey and completely surrendered. It will not work that way. No, absolutely. Yeah, I love how you check, you know, well, what about just for the last five minutes? Can you just let go for the last minute or a couple of minutes? Like that counts, it moves you forward, it counts.

SPEAKER_04 19:13

Yeah, and you've got perfectionists as well. And where there's perfection, there's always a lurker who's the lurker. It's Craig the Critic. Yeah, and he'll be like, Well, no, you yeah, but you're white knuckling, you can't do it, so you can't do it. No, we don't. We always remind ourselves of how far we have come, but it's the little bit, what can we do next? Yeah, and that's super important because Craig the Critic will try to tell you, you know, oh, this and that, or what's the point? Something we hear, I hear, don't know about you, Drew, I hear a lot is you know, I've done the exposures, I keep going to the place, and and the anxiety doesn't go away. Yeah. Nine times out of ten, it's comes down to this.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

That's exactly right. It's this. Yeah, I've talked about that so often over the years. Exposure is exposure is more than just doing the things. Now, of course, you have to just start by doing the things, and you might power through them, like I keep saying, but this this is usually the first place I go when somebody says, but I am doing the things. Yes, but how are you doing them? Are you rushing through them? Are you hanging on? Right. And what is what do you what experience do you take, or what is what do you what is the lesson you take away afterwards? Well, the lesson is I hated it, I was anxious, I made it. And oh, are you treating it like you dodged another bullet somehow, managed to make it? Yeah, well, that's your clue right there.

SPEAKER_04 20:34

Um, and it's the important distinction as well. Like it's for people who who start off doing well and they build up to it. So, like Dan in that wonderful voice. No, he's he's got on the bus and he's probably you know, I'm a bit bit more confident now, yeah. Uh, and you should be, because that's amazing. Um, and you might come to a neck to another stumbling block, maybe something that's a bit more challenging as an exposure. Yeah, but just remember that's brilliant, and you always build upon it. Um, someone asked me, you know, I I remember a client years ago who wouldn't leave the house for years. Uh I set them a homework of walking to the end of their road, and they came back and they said, I got to the end of my road, but I had to hold my husband's hand to get there. I was like, Hey, yeah, when you did you did your homework. What do you think your next homework's gonna be? Set yourself your next homework. Right. And she was like, Yeah, maybe I should try out my own now. I was like, there we are then. Yeah, well done.

SPEAKER_03 21:37

Yeah. And see how in that situation, what could have been called a failure? There's two there's two reasons people will call it a failure. That, like, well, I I used a crutch or you know, I white knuckled, I held on. Okay, no problem. The fact that you're telling me that you did that is excellent because that informs you can literally stop and let's get super practical for a minute. How did I do that last exposure when I walked to the post box and back? My British Lang post box. But yeah. Like what can what did I do? Well, I I was looking at my phone the whole time. I was watching, you know, Tik Talks to distract myself. Okay, so then what can you do differently next time? Well, I'll put my phone away for the first two minutes of the walk.

unknown 22:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:15

There you go. There's your your last experience informed your next one and and and gave you a very practical clue as to what to try differently next time. Yeah, it's great.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

You can always learn from those things. And it's not it's not black or white. You can you can do it.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

You can always I think remember, we should probably bring up expectation of what the exposure is going to be like also matters, or exposure challenge, whatever you want to call it. Sometimes they're plant exposures, sometimes you're just challenged because life has challenged you. That happens. Well, if your goal and if you're hoping that you will find a way to do this exposure or meet this challenge without being anxious, I mean, if you are not anxious, cool, bonus, enjoy it. But if you're hoping that let me cross my fingers and maybe this time I won't get triggered, you will wind up disappointed and and white knuckling, and you almost can't help it. Like, no, I am going to meet this challenge expecting to be triggered. I need to be.

SPEAKER_04 23:07

That's part of it. How how good am I at being anxious today? Yeah. You know, how much is this anxiety gonna make me want to tighten up and grip, you know? Um Claire Weeks, you know, used the the term floating. I mean, that's open to interpretation. Um, but you know, it floating, uh, I think what she meant by that, I don't know, she's not around anymore. But what I think she meant by that was like, you know, floating and all the connotations that come with that, go loose, go light. Yeah, you can do it. You don't need to grab the nearest thing. Um, I was gonna ask you, Drew, because you so um courageously opened up about your DBDR experiences in our derealization episode. And I remember you saying and describing DBDR as if the the sensation of being pulled away, like life was sucking you away. Yeah. I'm gonna guess that part of your initial coping techniques with derealization was to white knuckle.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

Oh, almost literally. I would, especially if it happened in the car, I would count the bumps on the steering wheel. You know, that steering wheel has little bumps on it. I don't know, maybe you're maybe done doesn't anymore, but at the time it had those bumps, and I would hang on so hard and I would try and cut the bumps, and I would grip that, or I would grip the handle, you know, the the the oh shit handle that's in the car, or I would stick my hand out the door, and I would, I would want the hot air, the cold air, and I would grip the rear view mirror so that I could feel the muscles in my forearm tense because I could feel that it was a feeling that I could like look, I'm real. And yeah, literally. I would, I would yeah, it was incredible. I tried everything to just feel something physically and like be connected again so that I could stop myself from slipping away or disintegrating, which is what it felt like. And that's white knuckley. Oh boy, for DPDR as well, yeah, which is we we get asked a lot about. You know, it's funny because your when you said that thing, like just try for the last minute or so to let go on the roller coaster. That's exactly what I had to do. I was little experiments of like, all right, let me just let go of this for a minute. And it would be really, really scary because it felt like, but I'm slipping away, I gotta hang on. And then over time I was able to understand that, like, oh, oh, I don't slip away. It feels like I am, but look, I'm still driving, I'm still in control, I'm still okay. Just really uncomfortable, really. So leaping into the abyss of uncertainty. Yeah, but at very small, they were leaps. That's a good point. We often use the word leap or leap of faith, and leap implies something that's huge. Whoa, how would you graph that? It is a leap.

SPEAKER_04 25:40

No, if you've got my course drag, the leap isn't very far. The leap is not far at all.

SPEAKER_03 25:44

And you know what it is? It it feels like a huge leap into this giant gaping maw of nothingness, but it's really a leap that's like off the curb into from the sidewalk into the street or the pavement in the road, whatever you guys say over there. Oh, like those puddles.

SPEAKER_04 25:57

You walk in, you've got a puddle to the puddle. How deep's that puddle there? Well, the puddle's never gonna be really deep. Yeah, you're never gonna turn out. Yeah, you know, but like but you always get that little bit of anxiety. Oh, how deep is it?

SPEAKER_03 26:11

Yeah, but but knowing that you're not you're not gonna fall into a bottomless pit of water. Yep. Yeah, it's like that's exactly what it is, like diving into water and you don't know how deep it is. And it turns out, like, oh, it wasn't as deep as I envisioned. I thought it was bottomless, Mariana Trench, deep, and it wasn't. So yeah, little bits at a time, those leaps add up and they teach you things. You also talked about how Dan probably practiced. We keep going back to good old Dan. Thanks, Dan. Yeah, Dan. This is why we look at it. Look at the contribution to this episode. Dan's a hero. Um, you also said that Dan would probably he was practicing. So I think it's really important to understand that if you are going to go from, say, stuck on your sofa, agoraphobic example, to I'm going to try to go to the family picnic that's 70 miles away and stay the whole day. You are going to white knuckle your way through that day. That's just the way it's going to be. That's okay, still a win. Don't expect that without practice, you can somehow magically do this thing that you are not prepared, don't want to do, and will and perfectly surrender and float through it. You are probably going to white knuckle a reasonable percentage of the time. Okay. All right. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:17

That's that's spot on. Um throughout your life, if you're reflecting, how many dates do you think have white knuckled their way through talking to you for an hour?

SPEAKER_03 27:30

All of them.

SPEAKER_04 27:32

And that's okay. All of them. You can clock watch all you want, you can count down the minutes. That's when white knuckling is cool.

SPEAKER_03 27:40

Luckily, it was before the days when they could text a friend to emergency call them, so they had to get through dinner. Wow. Tough room. Always a tough room.

SPEAKER_04 27:52

Uh um, talk. I thought you were gonna do all of them. Um very good. Okay. Also, white knuckling applies to another branch of anxiety called social anxiety. If you're socially anxious, yep. You're you're all white knucklers. You know, I've been there. Um, you ever white knuckled your way through a social situation?

SPEAKER_03 28:13

Uh honestly, or we're gonna be honest when we talk about this stuff. I that's never been an issue for me. I would white knuckle my way through social situations only because I was panic anxious, agoraphobic, OCD anxious, not because I have social, socially triggered anxiety. I was just trapped in a conversation and I would white knuckle to get through it.

SPEAKER_04 28:30

Oh, because of the fear of fear. Yeah, yeah. So, like white knuckling applies, yes, to the fear of fear and that kind of anxiety disorder, but also if you struggle with the social anxiety, um the same applies, you know. So people might white knuckle in social situations by placating others, holding back their own opinions, you know, people pleasing um uh around them. You know, maybe they're even just they're so socially anxious that they can't wait for an acceptable time to leave, you know. Uh, and these would be people that kind of what you've got to realize is that that's okay to maybe do an exposure there. So you can maybe ask a well to you a slightly controversial question or share an opinion that may not, you know, um settle well with the people you're you're sharing it with, yeah. Um, or and just being a bit brave and trying things in social situations, that is applying the willful tolerance of uncertainty. Um, and also you don't need to run from shame. People with fear of fear will run from fear, yeah. People with social anxiety will run from fear and shame. You can apply that too. Now, I'm not saying turn up to a party and insult someone's mother, that's that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying is go and share your opinion, you know. If someone's there saying, you know what, I I really enjoyed Coldplay's new album, and you were like, No, I I didn't like it, you're allowed to say that rather than going, Oh yeah, it was great, you know, let's go get tickets. You know, if you if you're talking to a Manchester United fan and they're telling you that they're the greatest team ever and and they should be worshipped, you're allowed to say no. You're allowed to say that's ridiculous. What's wrong with you? That's completely untrue. Newcastle United are the greatest team of all time. You can say that, it's okay. But jokes aside, that's what you you need to look at, like that white knuckling can apply to those situations, too. It's not just the fear of fear, it can apply to shame.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

I'm guessing that in that situation, I don't claim to have all that much expertise in terms of the mechanics of social anxiety, but from what's very smart people have told me, that white knuckling is the constant monitoring of did that sound right? Did I say that right? Should I not have said that? What's coming up next? What might I have to say or not say? What are people are they looking at me? So it's the letting go of like, yeah, people are gonna look at me, they might have an opinion of me, they might think I said something silly. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

Yeah, and and social anxiety can be quite complex as well, usually has its roots in shame. Yep. Maybe people have grown up in in not nice environments. Uh we'll do a good episode on social anxiety, actually, and you know, and get to because that's where Craig the critic is uh he owns the social anxiety club because it's always always there.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

One of the most interesting things that I ever heard, I'm sorry, Josh, I stepped all over you on social anxiety, wasn't the people. Well, you're doing an exposure, aren't you? Totally. Yeah. Well, you you admitted to liking Newcastle United, so I'm just gonna I'm gonna roll my dice too. So I think in the end, like this someone once told me, and it was so fascinating the first time I ever heard it, was like social anxiety is really not so much people are worried, like, oh, you're going to judge, don't judge me. It's not about judging, it's about seeing. Don't don't see me, because I don't like seeing me. Like that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 32:00

Yeah, I see. Okay. That makes sense. What do you mean see what seeing you or seeing your anxiety and fear?

SPEAKER_03 32:08

No, the way it was described to me, I can only pass along what was described to me. Um, and by the way, I turned those off. Yes, you can hear them. So um the way it was described to me is people would assume that a socially anxious person is shy and is afraid that people are going to judge them. But there's a really good chance that they came into the situation already judging themselves. So I don't want not it's not that you have I don't want you to judge me. I actually don't even want you to see me because I don't like seeing me. I don't like me. I I see all the flaws in me. I'm already judging me. So I don't want you to even I don't even want to be seen because I I have that shame. But we'll talk about that.

SPEAKER_04 32:43

We'll talk about that shame stuff though, because no, you you deserve to be seen whoever you are. It doesn't matter, even if you're shy. You know, some of the most interesting people are shy. Yeah, you know, you don't need to be that person in the middle of the room being, you know, uh a loud ass. Yeah, it's okay. But uh yeah, it's another topic. But yeah, I thought I didn't want to, you know, we don't miss out the these things here, particularly with the white knuckling and stuff. Yep. Um you're you're gonna white knuckle. That's really important. It's impossible to be comp to not to completely um sorry, not to white knuckle 100%. It's it's impossible. Uh particularly if you're doing maybe some exposure response prevention work, um, if you're challenging um intrusive thoughts with OCD, uh, or if you're just doing something really tricky. Uh I did an exposure, is my did it anyway. Um, I've said before that one of my fears, phobias, is um being in a confined space above ground. I don't like it. It's um it makes me feel horrible. So, like these are things like um yeah, I went on a what's it not a ski lift? What do they call it? It's a gondola, right? Yeah, like a gondola, tramp um call it. I I can't remember what it means. But basically, yeah, it's a it's a lift that goes up a mountain. So I thought, okay, like let's have a go and you know, have a go at this. And yeah, the first two minutes going up this mountain, uh, you know, swinging above ground, goes, I was like, oh, and there was a bit of white knuckle in there, you know, I was you know, grabbing the sea, grabbing my hands, you know, um rotating my shoulders, you know, having an outlet for the adrenaline. But I kept bringing my attention back to like, no, this is okay, this adrenaline will pass, it's okay. And by the time I got to the top of the mountain, which by the way was beautiful and really frightening, yeah. Um, you know, I felt a lot better. Um, obviously that was half the exposure because I had to get to get back down in it and get back down again. Um and but what was nice is that the exposure ramped up, so halfway down because it was one of the last um cable car, that's it. The last cable cars going down the mountain. Um, the guy was like, Well, we have to fill this one up because we need to get everyone off the mountain. So I was sat in the cable car with eight people, you know, and they were all fidgeting, and I could have killed them because the cable car was uh swinging around. Um, but by the time I got to the bottom, I was like, I actually feel alright. I was chatting away. I'd even press my face against the glass to look down. Yep. Uh, and I could and I was injured and I was enjoying it like Dan on the on the bus. Um, but yeah, that's just another example. Like I didn't do it, I didn't walk in and and just start like you know, humming and being all Zen. No, I was like, no, okay, you know, there's a way to do this. There's something that I can need to keep gently remind myself to do.

SPEAKER_03 35:30

We could probably argue that the physiology of fear means that you everybody starts starts by white knuckling always. If I'm really honest about that, and I talk about this, if I panic, which can happen to me maybe a couple times a year, maybe probably in that first 60 seconds, I'm probably white knuckling a little bit. Just that recovery means that I catch it really fast and I let go. But there we go. I don't know if you can not do it. The physiology is gonna make you white knuckle to a certain extent. So that's not fail, it's just how fast do I catch it and change.

SPEAKER_04 36:01

I think to summarize, it's that metacognitive awareness of how quickly you can recognize that you're white knuckling and bringing compassionately bringing your attention to changing that behavior, go loose, go floating, willful tolerance and serenity anxiety.

SPEAKER_03 36:18

A little bit at a time. People are going to always ask, so how do I stop white knuckling? A little bit at a time. That's the answer. A little bit. And you might go back to white knuckling. Gently remind yourself it's okay. This is what we're practicing. Here's the benefit when you stop white knuckling. When you got to the bottom of that cable car and you're pressing your face and you're enjoying the view, there is no character in a Marvel movie that is more superhero than you getting off of that cable car. Am I right? Like that feeling of like it could have got on again. Yeah, right. Yeah, it could have got on again. You are strutting off that. I mean, as a fearful flyer, I can relate to that too. You get to where you're going on the plane, and I'm walking through that airport like I own the place. Just because I did it, and you have that huge boost like I faced it.

SPEAKER_04 36:59

So it's it is really lovely. Yeah. Um, talking of wins, do we have any did it anyways or questions? We have another did it anyway.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Should we play that one first and then we'll wrap it up with the question of the week? Let's do it. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Hi, Drew and Josh. My name's Sam, and I'm from West Yorkshire in England, and I just wanted to share a hashtag did it, but also a hashtag did it and doing it again. I managed to go on holiday to Norway back in June, and I am going again in September, and I am really looking forward to it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 37:38

Another huge win.

SPEAKER_04 37:40

Two people from Yorkshire today, randomly. We've got listeners all over the globe. Yorkshire, England, where they're winning it, and I take back the insult, Dan. So that's amazing. I've never been to Norway. Well done. And you're gonna go back. You know, you did it. Superb win. Love the hashtag doing it again. You you felt like so much of a superhero. You changed uh hashtag. That's exactly right. So you got all cheeky with it, and I'm here for it. You you enjoy that again.

SPEAKER_03 38:12

Uh let us know as well how it was. Here's a fun fact: I spent a year straight, actually, it was 370 days before I ditched it and deleted the app, learning Norwegian on Duolingo. I did a full year Norwegian. Why Norwegian? I have a friend in Norway, and and I was like, oh, I I'm interested in the culture, and I'm like, oh, learn Norwegian. Here's the the spoiler alert, too long didn't read. I don't know any Norwegian. So you can't learn a language that's not.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

Any Norway Norwegian listeners, please submit any questions in Norwegian. Yeah, I'll be right back. And uh Drew will Drew will uh read them out loud.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

I will read them out loud. I can vaguely, when I see Norwegian comments, I get to sort of translate them a little bit. But anyway. Um let's talk about it. That was pretty cool. Yeah, it was all right, but it was a fun diversion. Anyway, um so let's wrap it up with a question. So this question, I won't say the person's name, but I recent listened, I recently listened to the podcast on depersonalization and have experienced it several times. It's a rough experience, it is, especially when I'm at work where coworkers notice what I call the lights on, but no one is home kind of thing. Very descriptive, like it. Is there any kind of suggestion that may help bring me back to reality when at work? Oh. I'll I'll throw that at you. You can you can hit that one out of the park.

SPEAKER_04 39:26

I would I would reframe that to you're already in reality, you're just experiencing it in a way that you don't want to at the moment. Um this is a focus question. You don't want to start white knuckling and getting rid of the derealization because when we get angry and irritated at the derealization, it causes more stress. In the derealization episode, I say, you know, I actually think it is a symptom of stress. So if you're getting stressed out about derealization and you want it to go immediately, it's probably gonna hang out a bit longer than you want it to. So what I would say is remind yourself, no, I am in reality. I'm just seeing it through a lens that a less preferable lens, and I'm gonna be practicing my willful tolerance again. It's okay. But when they say the lights are on a no one, no one's home, I'm gonna guess that it's because your attention has gone inwards. Yeah, and so yeah, you probably aren't attentive, you probably aren't um kind of you know as as aware and focused on things around you as you'd like. What I would say is that here's a chance to practice that. You can still listen and pay attention when you dereal deralize it's okay. Yeah, it just you know, um, and that's what you've got to do. I would say, nope, okay, I've derealized, I don't like it. But I know the way out of this and the way to stop it in the future is to practice my attention external whilst it's here. Because if you're doing internal threat monitoring, that's probably why you're not in the room. It's probably someone's probably chatting to you, going, Hello, you there? And you're going, uh no, because you've internal threat monitoring, you're probably looking at stuff, you're analyzing it, you're wishing for it to go away, and you're probably white knuckling.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

Yep, I would agree, can't really add anything to that. Intent, oh you know, intent. Intent. Yeah, intent. I I'm I asked Drew and Josh for tips on making it go away. And really, the tip is you don't have to make it go away.

SPEAKER_04 41:20

So it will leave on its own, particularly when you you take away the stress surrounding it. Well done. Good question. Thank you for sending it in. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. We have a very special announcement just to conclude this uh episode, and these are the people who perhaps need a little boost and stuff uh going along. Um, Drew and I have decided um because we have such good interactions with the community, we're just there is a very limited um opportunity available for people. We're gonna start a little um intensive kind of um disordered boost club. Uh and basically, in a nutshell, you can jump in a WhatsApp group with me, Drew, and a handful of other people and for 30 days straight. And if you need a bit of a boost to get out there, you will be in a WhatsApp group with me and Drew. Yeah. Um at your own peril. Uh so if you want really bad uh bad jokes will be there. Um, but yeah, if you want some supportive advice from your peers and us, don't get me wrong, you know, you'll we're not gonna be there at 3 a.m. Carving it down. That's that's definitely not happening. Um, but in general, throughout the days, 30 days straight every day, if you want help with your exposures, support, a place to share that, then that will be coming soon. So if you'd like to register your interest, just go on disorder.fm. Don't worry if not, we're gonna share everything we know in this podcast anyway. We never hide anything behind a paywall, but that's not what we're about. But if you want that intensive um kind of uh mentoring and coaching through it, then yeah, that's what we're looking to do.

SPEAKER_03 43:02

Yeah, small group, no more than 10 or 12 people in the group at any given time for 30 days, and we'll probably specialize them. We'll do an agoraphobia group, we'll do a health anxiety group, so it's not just general, you're mixed in with everybody.

SPEAKER_04 43:12

So yeah, no, yeah. Specific, I should imagine there'll be specific stuff as well. Yeah, um, we'll probably start with agoraphobia driving anxiety. Yep. Um, but many things. I'll even do maybe to a social anxiety group as well at some point. But yeah, um, if that's of any interest to you, come along.

SPEAKER_03 43:27

If not, just keep tuning in, we'll still be here. Yeah, we'll be here doing our thing. Doing this thing, you can go to disorder.fm and hop on our mailing list. We'll let everybody know when that's when that's coming out. Um, that's we don't spam anybody. In fact, we haven't emailed anybody yet. But if you go and join our mailing list, we will make an announcement when we release that. Um, and you can also leave us a voicemail there or send us a message to ask us questions or do it anyway. Love it.

SPEAKER_04 43:50

We love listening to the voice. So much fun.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

The messages, yeah. We love it. Very good. Thanks everybody. Appreciate it. Pre-recorded me. We'll come back to wrap it up in a minute, and we'll see you in the next one. Catch you soon. We're out. Hey, it's Drew. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Disordered. Josh and I both hope that you're finding it helpful in some way. For more information about Josh or me or the Disordered Podcast, find us on the web at disordered.fm. That's disordered.fm. Pop on over and find links to our social media platforms, join our mailing list so we can let you know when new podcast episodes are available, and we'll send you easy ways to ask us questions and share your wins so we can answer questions on the air and share your successes with the community. And if you're listening to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any platform that lets you rate a review, do us a favor and leave us a five-star rating and maybe write a review if you're digging disordered. It really helps us out and we appreciate that. Thanks again for coming by, and we'll see you in the next episode.