Anxiety Recovery, Re-Sensitization, and De-Sensitization (Episode 50)

SPEAKER_02 0:01

For some people, they can be resensitized to anxiety and the fear, and their nervous system becomes resensitized.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Even when you're down the road to recovery, there might be an external trigger. There's a lot happening in your life or whatever. So the external trigger re-triggers the internal sensitization. That's the problem with a disordered person. I am resensitized to my own internal state. And I think that's the difference between a recovered person and someone who's never had to recover from an anxiety disorder. How I feel is interpreted as a bad thing.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

That applies to pretty much every anxiety disorder. What do I do, Josh? What do I do, Drew? Okay, well, we work on desensitizing. Can you do that in 10 minutes, Drew? No. Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 50. We're so happy to get to this point. This episode is entitled Resensitization and Desensitization. My name is Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist based in Manchester in the UK. A previous sufferer, an author of the book called And How Does That Make You Feel?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

And I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist and training specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders, also an author and a podcaster in this community, a former sufferer of anxiety and depression for quite a long time, and the other co-host of this fine podcast that now has 50 episodes.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

I've enjoyed it every single episode. Right back at you. It's been a great journey. And I'm looking forward to doing many more. 100%. You guys should be here and see how much fun we have recording these. Because we truly do. Yeah, and the community along the way has been fantastic. If you're new to this podcast, feel free to browse all the episodes. We get lots of questions about specific topics, and sometimes we may you may find that we've already covered the topic and question. So scroll through the episode list, and the 50s quite a lot. Or if you want and you've got the time, start from the beginning, you know, and we just share everything we know about anxiety, how how we got better, how others got better. Loads of community wins. You might find that other people's wins resonate with you. And yeah, but if you're just here and joining us at 50, welcome to the party. It's childish, it's silly, but informative.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

That's a fine line, and I think we managed to tow it somehow. But so let's talk about the sensitization, or should we start with some community stuff first? Should we do a did it anyway?

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Yeah, I've got a written did it anyway here. Uh fantastic. Uh, and it ties in with today's topic of sensitization, desensitization, resensitization.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

All right.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Um, here we go. Hello, please don't say my name on the pod. I am a counsellor myself who has had a relapse of panic disorder and mild agoraphobia over the last six to twelve months. And this weekend just gone, I drove on the motorway, slept in a camper van overnight, and went surfing the next day in the sea for three hours, a long way from home, in the cold. So many possible triggers, unfamiliar places, but I was able to set my anxiety aside for the sake of doing something really, really fun. I barely remembered I even felt anxious once I was in the waves. Thank you for the encouraging podcasts, and for also acknowledging that we're mental health professionals, it can feel like we should be above relapses, etc. From a grateful listener.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Oh, that's so awesome. I love that. Like in the extreme conditions and the cold and like all the things that would trigger everybody, and he did it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Well, we don't know the gender of the person. You just assumed it was he. That's true. I don't know the gender. You know what I mean? Particularly in the UK, where the mostly counselors are mostly women.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

I don't know either. I don't know the gender. You know, that's actually really interesting that you point that out because I haven't I didn't read that, so I don't know who sent in the email, so I don't know the name. Welcome to episode 50 of Disordered, entitled Cancelling Drew. That's exactly right. Uh entitled Cultural Competency and How to Blow That Part of the curriculum. Well done.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

That's a fantastic dinner anyway. Um, and yeah, it notes uh how your attention kind of you allowed your attention to go towards your values, as Drew says. And I hope you enjoyed the waves. Um and yeah, thank you. Keep the Did It Anyway send it send them in if you um if you have some yourself, go to disorder.fm, share away.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yeah, absolutely. We'll do a few more of those later on, answer some questions, but let's get to today's topic re-sensitization and desensitization.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

It ties in a bit with relapse, like the question the Did It Anyway sender inner uh said. And it was kind of like I don't really like to use the word relapse. Um I know we've done an episode a long time ago on relapse, but I just wanted to talk about the whole topic of resensitization to anxiety and desensitise. Yeah, and sometimes it could it can be go up and down and fluctuate for some people they can be resensitized to anxiety and the fear, and their nervous system becomes resensitized after a prolonged out of stress, or maybe there's uh a trigger of trauma, or maybe they just have a random panicky moment somewhere, all that intrusive thought has got us on the OCD hamster wheel again. What I wanted us to talk about today, Drew, is that kind of rather than going it's back, I'm spiraling, I'm I'm tornadoing downhill, I'm never getting better, and no, oh reframe that to ah I'm feeling a bit resensitized here at the moment.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

So I need to realize that it's a process to desensitize and to take away that immediacy. Did you experience that in your journey, Drew?

SPEAKER_01 6:15

Yes. I mean, uh, you know, I always try and joke and say, like, I don't know anybody anybody more recovered than me unless it's you. And from time to time, in stressful times in my life or when I'm, you know, really under the gun, I will experience anxiety or even panic. And you can quickly, because of our past experiences, I think, and maybe our propensity to this, become re-sensitized to our own internal state. And I think that's the difference between a recovered person and someone who's never had to recover from an anxiety disorder. We we can quickly fall back into that trap of like, oh no, it's back, and what does how I feel is interpreted as a bad thing. I would have that on a t-shirt.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

I am resensitized to my own internal state, and that applies to pretty much every anxiety disorder. I am resensitized to my own internal state.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Which I think, by the way, because of external triggers. Even when you're down the road to recovery, there might be an external trigger. There's a lot happening in your life or whatever. So the external trigger re-triggers the internal sensitization. That's the that's the problem with a disordered person.

SPEAKER_02 7:27

Yes. Oh, he's on fire today. You know, he's treat his clambering back after being cancelled at the start. He's pulling out all the big guns. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah, the external trigger can trigger that internal uh kind of thing. And yeah, and that happens a lot. I mean, I said to Drew and I sometimes get anxiety now and then we often get resensitized. I've been very stressed recently, positive stress, but my stress drug's been full. And I've noticed that that is that that re-sensitization to feelings and feeling odd and symptoms. And obviously, I practice my golden rules, just do what non-anxious me would do and be wary of my behaviours and what if what they're doing to teach the amygdala that it's okay. Um, but yeah, you know, you you do it. Ah, I I frame this and I realized it when I was walking this morning. I was like, what am I actually doing here? And it's a question that we get asked. Like, ah, I'm I've re-sensitized, so I will desensitize. Yeah. And it's almost like an old hip hop beat of you know, desensitize when you resensitize. It is a hundred percent hip hop song. And uh we've grown up and moved on from the childish sounds and things.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

No, we have we clearly have not. Hold on.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Have you got something up your sleeve?

SPEAKER_01 8:45

I do. Told you we have fun when we record these. It is like a hip hop. Jasper's like, this sounds like a rap song. Re-sensitization, desensitization.

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Yeah, like like nine early 80s rap. Oh, you know, like old school. Sensitized to desensitize. Um, yeah, and but I was that was occurred to me in my head that that's what we're doing. So picture it like a little roller coaster where it's like a nice roller coaster, a nice one. You're like, oh, going up and going down and going up and going down. And okay, if I'm up, as in my anxiety sensitization's there, I've just got to be patient and work on desensitizing again. Yeah. And this is why a lot of people, when they say they have relapse or trigger with OCD, panic disorder, GAD, etc., it's that, okay, well, what do I do, Josh? What do I do, Drew? Okay, well, we work on desensitizing. Can you do that in 10 minutes, Drew?

SPEAKER_01 9:48

No. No, you can't do it in 10 minutes. And I think even as a recovered person, when that wave sort of hits again, while I might experience, you know, periods of high anxiety, or even maybe have a panic attack now and then, maybe a couple times a year, who knows? You know, there is a little bit of hangover, I call it the panic attack hangover, after even even for me. I just don't do anything with it. And I think the trick there to going back into the desensitization routine, if you will, is to not scramble frantically for a routine. So I think a lot of people will be like, oh, I'm resensitized, it happened again, it's back, and now please give me all the steps again to make it stop. But that's not what we're after. So I just have to let the panic attack hangover come with me for the rest of the day if it lasts.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

I like that term. I've never really used the panic attack hangover, but that actually makes sense. Like, what would you do, you know, if you had a conventional hangover? There's not much you can do, you just gotta wait for it to pass. You don't really have to do anything. Uh, and yeah, if but when you're in the like anxiety hangover when it's peaked after one time, it's like it's a bit like what when you just kind of label it like, oh, I'm in that hangover state. That's normal, that's okay, I don't need to do anything. Yeah, I think I like that. It's just like I'm supposed to feel this way, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

And the hangover state could be certainly physical because there's a physical activation there for sure, but it's also that emotional or mental hangover that says, now I feel vulnerable to that internal state, it might happen again. It happened after hasn't happened for six months, now it happened, now I'm afraid it's gonna happen again in two hours.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

And that's the resensitization, isn't it? That's exactly right. Now I'm afraid it's gonna happen again. Yep. So desensitize as opposed to resensitize. You thought you were the only one with sound effects.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

I'm clearly not. You have the best one, you got the eagle. I ain't never gonna top that, so just saying.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yeah, yeah. I played him twice, though, I think, in the last episode. So, you know, I don't want people to become desensitized to the comic genius of the eagle.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Very good. Uh yeah, so I think the biggest issue here is how fast, because I think people start to get a little nervous. I'm resensitized. Oh no, is it going to take me two years again to get over this? I mean, you know, so when you have that little bit of like, you know, there's a lot going on, the book is coming out and everything, and you're under the gun, and you might feel some things. What do you think about the time frame? What's your experience on your time frame for redesensitization? I just coined a term.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

I like that. We make up words on here, don't we? We do. Um, it's interesting. I was talking to Drew before the episode, and um, I had a lot on with the book PR and stuff. Bloods positive stress, things in personal life, etc. Uh, and I was at my laptop the other day, and I just looked up and I had my adrenaline rush. Adrenaline surge. Hello, I've not experienced you for a while. Whack and the DPDR and the I get this bloating thing that some symptom that we spoke about on the IBS episode with Dr. Sula. Uh that kicks in, you know, I can't quite catch my breath. I was like, oh, hello, panic, my old friend. Um, and then I took a step back, I was like, that's interesting. I'm having a big adrenaline surge. I call them adrenaline rush. You know, whatever. My nervous system's like, I can't do this. And looking back, this is why the analogy of the stress drug is so important. Is that yeah, I mean, I've just had a lot on. And even though in that precise moment, you know, I wasn't really doing anything particularly stressed, there was no particular trigger. Just looked up from my laptop, things looked a bit strange, and then the amygdala decides you know what, we're gonna do, I'm gonna just flood your body with adrenaline now. Amygdala. Hello, oh yeah, him him there, yeah, uh, or her, yeah, or them. Them anyway. Um, and yeah, I was just kinda yeah, I was like, it it shook me for a bit. I was like, wow. And then I practiced what I preached, do what non-anxious me would do. Went and played some racket sports, um, tried to concentrate 51% at least on what I was doing, whilst the what ifs are going off, firing off, because it's my doubt response. It will throw anything at me to make me doubt. Like, what if this isn't anxiety? What if it's something worse? What if you've got a thyroid condition that's been untreated? What if anything to keep my attention on how I felt? And it lasted for a few hours, and even the day after I felt I'm slightly sensitized to it. And even today, two days later, I mean it's come right down now, I don't really mind. But it kind of inspired this kind of episode. It's like, yeah, I'm glad it happened because it can put my mind back in the in the in the place of people who listen. But it was more of a desensitization, okay. I'm I'm just in the desensitization phase right now. I'm not gonna rush, I'm not gonna do anything, it's just gonna happen. Yeah, I'm going to London later on on the train, busy city, gonna go stand on the underground, do all the things I would do anyway. Um, but knowing that yeah, I'm just that's okay. Also, I need to chill out because me and Drew often uh we often do a lot of things and um think that we can run in fifth gear all the time. But that was my warning call to say, you know, chill out a bit. I don't fear it happening again, but I'm just doing it more for okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

I need to chill out now. And that's where you know you reach that sort of recovered or close to recovered state. How about and everybody gets to define that for themselves, but that's when those messages, like the wisdom of anxiety, can start to actually make sense. If I'm gonna have a panic attack, then that probably means that I have run myself into the ground a little bit and my flexibility and resiliency is down, and so I'm more vulnerable to have it spill over. Oh, that's a clue. I need to take a little time off and you know, maybe reevaluate a little bit. That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

Yeah, that's life. Yeah, and that's more for wellness, not the fear of fear. Right. It's more for like, because we spoke about burnout and stuff, which is a great episode. Uh, good idea, uh Drew. And it was like, yeah, it's like, hold on, this is a warning here. Obviously, if I have to keep doing stuff, there's things in my itinerary, I will do them. I do not avoid.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

But but it's about using the free time. I mean, you know, to be like, all right, okay, I'm gonna shift down the gears now, tell Craig the critic to shut up and be like, no, I'm gonna put some times myself. Yeah, you know, not to stop anxiety, but to stop the what the anxiety was suggesting that was happening.

SPEAKER_03 16:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:34

Uh, you know, at the time I was like, this isn't sustainable. This this this isn't sustainable at the moment, you know, Josh. And I mentioned it about my tennitus as well the other day. It's like, listen to it, you know, listen to your body, because you I'm, you know, you don't want to literally become exhausted and be useless at book launch.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Yeah, that's true. You know, I could say, here's a little testimony from my friend and and co-host Josh here. Uh even before we went on the air, and it's just two dudes, two friends talking, the phrase doing what non-anxious me uh would do was built into the conversation. So when, you know, the the propensity will be like, well, when I get resensitized again, give me the steps. Then what do I do now? Literally, just whatever non-anxious Josh would do. And that struck me when you said that to me. And we could have just been on a phone call. That's not a podcast episode, they're just two friends talking. That really does matter. So there was I don't hear any specific technique that you used to desensitize again. You just went about your life and brought it with you.

SPEAKER_02 17:32

I just remember, like, right, what what was I gonna do now? Yeah, okay, try my best, because obviously you can't cross translating. Yeah, I mean, I feel good now chatting uh until you started playing that hip-hop beat. And that's over. He's all nervous again. But yeah, yeah, and and I thought, yeah, it's that I'm just desensitizing myself to that now. It's okay, you know, I'm re-sensitized just for a little bit because and then I'm just desensitizing myself. And I have no doubt that next week it'll be in the back of my head, uh or just kind of gone. Just don't really get I just allow my body to just do what it needs to do.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

It's a fascinating process because when you have gone, and listen, but in the earlier days when you were really struggling, when I was really struggling, that's a hard process to get through. Just doing what non-anxious you would do, trying to figure out what non-anxious you, you know, it's really hard.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

But yeah, but particularly if you've not gone through it again. We forgot what non-anxious you would do.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Yeah, it becomes really difficult. And uh, but I can say that I just had a recent period too where you know there was a big loss in my family, and I've talked about that a little bit, but uh it was really hard. I was feeling a lot of things for about a week there, and then I had to do some traveling, which meant going to an airport and getting on a plane, which I don't really love to do anyway. And there was that doubt in my mind, like I'm so run down, I've been feeling a lot of things, there's a lot of stress on me right now. How is this going to go? It went like a non-anxious person went. So the dividends that you that you reap after you do that work, you know, as a little bit of encouragement, you guys keep going. Believe it or not, in the thick of it, I couldn't tell my improvement minute by minute, but day by day, but I could see it now because I just got engaged with the outside world and I didn't even think about it. Next thing you know, I was, you know, a thousand miles away in in the southern US.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Like amazing. Yeah. Well great, what a great example. Uh you did it anyway. You did something tricky.

SPEAKER_03 19:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Um, yeah, no, it's uh but when you look basically interesting because when you do look back and you're like, what did you do? I just did what non-anxious me would do. I don't know. Right. I just followed through with my plans. Yeah, despite and whilst feeling anxious.

SPEAKER_01 19:40

And oddly, I mean, not that you do it to techniquify, which is one of the things we talked about, and I think that was the attitude shift episode. It's really good. But uh, one of the things that we do in this situation is I didn't follow a particular plan. I just followed whatever I had on my agenda, and interestingly, there was no anxiety. Not because I was trying to make it go away, just because I get out of my own head and I was just engaged with what was going on and flying and get to the airport and do all the stuff you gotta do. And I don't know. Like my brain suddenly decided, oh, I guess how I feel isn't the most important thing in the room right now. So yeah. Uh so that's the benefit of all this work that you do. And I know you guys are struggling, that's what you get out of it in the end. So hang in there. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

And when you if you're someone who's felt like they've made a lot of progress with their anxiety, and then suddenly, you know, and we hear this lot, it's back, I don't know what I'm doing this time. Step one. Ah, I'm I'm just resensitized now. I've desensitized myself in the past, and I'll do it again, and I'll probably do it quicker this time because of the psychoeducks and the knowledge and the timeless sounds of hip-hop.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

I created a monster, clearly. Um that's all right, I enjoy it. This speaks directly to the uh people who, especially if you're early on, you're listening to this, and you're early on in the recovery process, and you hear a lot of people talk about well, I was told that you can never cure this or you can never actually recover. All the best you can hope for is to manage your anxiety. And I think this topic speaks directly to that. The reason why sometimes it's interpreted as the best you could do is manage your anxiety is because of this. You know, so you're talking to two guys who have spent a long time as recovered people, we have the temerity to actually want to give you advice about it, we're so damn recovered, you know, making a joke about it, but nonetheless, it it could still happen to us. But it's a very different experience when it happens now, and I think people misinterpret that as see, they're just managing their anxiety. Are you managing your anxiety every day? Every human on the planet manages their anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Right. The only difference is the content. What did you say before, Drew? Like external triggers trigger an internal thing, and that's because of habit.

SPEAKER_03 21:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

But that is the same anxiety. As someone who has an external trigger and then they focus on the external worry. Right. The same physiological process. So I don't think it's not like, oh, that you know, those guys are just managing it. No, it's a happy lives. You can't get rid of it. No one gets rid of anxiety. We just offer you to step off the hamster wheel because sometimes we spend longer on it because we end up in cyclical fixation loops.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Whereas your friend who doesn't have an anxiety disorder will still get anxiety and worry, but their worries are often not in a loop. And sometimes you find that they are in a loop. Maybe they're just worried about their relationship and can't stop ruminating about it. Maybe they're worried about their job and they just constantly worry about their job. The mechanics are the same. It's just that with us, we misinterpret what's going on in our bodies as catastrophe, but it's still worry. This is what we've got to say. So don't think, oh, you know, this is different or whatever. No. You will always get anxious. It's just how you respond to it.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Everyone gets anxious. It's how you respond to it. And I think that speaks directly to the whole, well, now I just have to learn to manage my anxiety. Yes, if your goal or you will define recovered as I met I find a way to not feel those things, then you would get stuck trying to manage your thoughts and your emotions and your bodily reactions, which is a really tall order, as opposed to like, well, no, uh uh my job is to desensitize myself to these things, bring them along with me, see them as having far less consequence than I do right now, and then they tend to fade into the background. But then they what might pop back once in a while, but that's no different than any, like Josh said, any other human being.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Absolutely. That if they pop back down, then that's not you failing, right? That's not you doing nothing wrong. That's what happens as a human. It's just the content and the habits of the past. And the brain and the memory will will try and grab at things associated with that feeling. Yeah. Which is really interesting. Because like when I had the adrenaline rush a couple of days ago, I remembered what it was like many years ago to be in the midst of that panic. I was like, oh yeah, and it picks on that. And it's you know, and I was like, wow, and I actually found it fascinating. I saw it with intrigue. I was like, wow, yeah, that makes so much sense.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Even knowing what you know and having all the experience, though it speaks to also the I I used to back in the day when I was creating a lot of content on this, I I used to use the term unlearn the fear, but that was wrong. And I've said that many times now. It's not unlearning the fear because that pathway still exists. It's not the default pathway anymore. But sometimes it can still be activated. That is a powerful survival habit that we were engaged in for many, many years. So when we when there what appears to be a big threat, people like us are more likely to go back to that old pathway and become internally focused, but then we can catch it.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

Yes, yes, you know, it happens, okay. So that happens. That is that is like anxiety disorder in a nutshell. Yeah. And I think that's really, really important. And people, the misinterpretation of that, it's okay that you're gonna go back to that. Yeah, because the neuropathways and the habits are there. So many people with Craig the Critics that are just screaming and shouting. It's Craig the critic. Uh, and they're like, Oh, you've done it, you've not fixed it. It's like, no, uh, you were in remission for 12. I never use it. You're in remission for 12 months, and now you're here again. It's like, no, look around you. Maybe life gets in the way, you get stressed. We all get anxious. Sometimes the brain just slips down an old neuropathway. In fact, we should do a session talking about you know, neuropathways and habits. Uh the layman introduction. I'm not a neuroscientist, but you know, when it when it comes to anxiety disorders. I think we should definitely do that because of habit. If you've been a if you listen to this podcast, you've probably been anxious for a while, and a lot of that would be habit related. So that just kind of those habits stay. And the same did uh to me the other day. It was there for like 10 minutes. I was like, whoa, yeah, but it was nice, it was like stepping back in time. I was like, oh yeah, I went with the intrigue as opposed to the it's back or all that. It's like, oh, right, don't get me wrong, it wasn't nice, yeah. But it was was not nice at all. But it was like, Oh yeah, I see why. And then I stood stood back even more. I was like, Yeah, this makes sense. You think you know, you you tell everyone to go easy and be compassionate and slow down. And actually, over the last week or two, I've not done that. So I was a bit like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Right, because you didn't feel like you had to to techniquify slowing down to feel better, yeah. So it's like, well, I can I'll slow down if I can, because it's just good for me. But if I can, I'll have to just, you know, work through it.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

That's that's like you know common sense, right? As opposed to immediacy of trying to shortcut my feelings.

SPEAKER_01 27:03

People often think about like, oh, well, so you just learned not to care how you feel. Well, I don't know, I'll speak for myself. I won't put words in your mouth, but if I do get triggered again because something is going on and I'm stagging a little bit, I'm vulnerable to that, I do care how I feel. In that moment, when you looked up from your laptop and like the world kind of went wonky on you, my guess is that for just a second or two at least, or a couple of minutes, you no, I care how I feel in that moment. I didn't learn to not care how I feel. I just learned to catch when I get caught up in caring so much about how I feel.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

I I always used to use the snow globe in my old in my old practice. And it was like the difference between now is like you know, you know the snow globes where you a little little country English countryside setting, and there's trees, and then you shake the glass ball, and then there's snow everywhere and it floats down. And you can really shake that ball. So when you're at the height of your anxiety, you know what's in the snow globe's the same, it's just difficult to see because everything's frenetic and dizzy and you're disoriented. And I think people with anxiety can relate to that, and when you leave it alone, it finally settles. The snow globe doesn't keep shaking and shaking, and when it settles, you can see everything around you like oh, the little bridge and little cottage, and little people and and and the animals and stuff. And don't get me wrong, when you're in there and it's shaking, you can see them, but it's difficult to take it all in because your concentration's gone, your fixation's gone. Well, when I had the adrenaline rush surge, whatever, two days ago, the snow globe is still shaking at the same speed, yeah, and the same amount of snow is in there, disturbing the vision. I'm just on the other side of the glass. I could see what was happening as opposed to being in it. I'm I'm on it, so imagine me like a little gecko stuck on the side of it, and that's just what it felt. I was like, Yeah, I'm I'm shaking with the snow, but I'm on the other side of the glass. I am observing what's happening, and I know the snow will settle as opposed to being in it when back when I was in the midst of my anxiety disorder, trying to fix it all.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

Trying to find a special way to make the snow instantly settle back down to the bottom of the snow globe, which can't. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

And just knowing that it would settle eventually in its own time.

SPEAKER_01 29:33

You know, it's interesting. We could use I love the snow globe thing, and I know you've talked about that before. I just why did I forget that? But you can imagine a snow a snow globe scene. Let's take a typical life stressor, for instance. This time the snow globe isn't a little English village, it's it's you and like your your moron boss that you hate, the micromanaging, narcissistic, horrible, evil boss, yelling at you and waving a finger. That's the concern, right? Because you can see that. But when the snow globe shakes, now you care about the snow. You stopped caring about the boss. You only care about the snow. But it's the boss.

SPEAKER_02 30:06

Oh, the boss looks scary because he's in the snowstorm still shouting at you. Yep, and now there's all the snow around. And now there's snow around him. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. What's what's in your yeah, I like this a lot.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

What's in your snow globe, your life? Yeah, what's going on in that moment? It could be the loss of a loved one or relationship problems or money problems or whatever it is. And now there's also snow around that scene, and you care more about the snow, and the snow makes it seem super scary.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

And you can't concentrate on everything. So when every when you're calm and relaxed, you can kind of take everything in, can't you?

SPEAKER_03 30:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

Like your life. You can take in your life more. Yep. But when you're blinded by this little snowstorm in your life, you just can't. Yeah, you can concentrate on maybe one thing, two things. It's so hard, it's difficult, it's exhausting. Allow that snow to settle. And um, I do like that. Maybe we should start some disordered branded snow globes, and it's just like little figurines of me and you in there. Yeah. And we're in this like Cadillac that's bouncing around. And we've got loads of anyway, you get the point.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Um, he's so offended by Josh's overuse of the hip-hop soundtrack, he's embarking there. Too funny.

SPEAKER_02 31:21

All right. Um, but but yeah, I like that, and I think anyone listening to picture in your snow globe. Notice when you're calm. Oh, I can see everything in my snow globe. Notice when you're anxious, uh, or fixated and wanted whether it's an intrusive thought, whether it's the feeling of anxiety itself, the fear of fear. Snow globes going round and round. So it's very normal for that. Take just take a step outside of it and just look at it. Be like, no, if I just leave this alone, the snow will settle. Not immediately. Yeah, I can put the snow globe down, and it takes a while for it to settle. But I'm trying here to intervene by moving the snow globe, turning it upside down, trying to force the snow to settle. Doesn't work. Just plop it on the side. You could walk away, make a sandwich if you want, and by the time you come back, it will settle.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

That will be one of the snow globes, a little figurine making a tuna sandwich.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Oh, we could have like limited edition ones. Oh Craig the Critic, or just an eagle.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

An eagle in the snow. No one will understand why someone has an eagle in a snow globe, except if they listen to this podcast. It'll be meaningless. Like, what's that all about? We know. If you know, you know. Um the snow globe. I could go on this because I have all kinds of things in my head now about the snow globe. The snow globe. The difference between a disordered person and a non-disordered person is that the non-disordered person, their snow snow globe shakes too, just that they understand why. Or like, oh, damn it, the snow. They're sensitized. They're a little bit raw, maybe they're experiencing burnout, and their snow globe is likely to shake again. They just they just don't freak out because it's shaking. Whereas the disordered person gets super fixated on the fact that really, dude? That the snow globe is. Copper is agreeing. He's in. He's like, dude, this is perfect. This is a great analogy. He wants in on that. Sorry about that.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Um, yeah, no, yeah, that's so true. And I think one of the things I'll take from this is that, yeah, everyone's snuggle up shakes. It's this that meta metacognitive question of why is mine there, and I'm misinterpreting why it's shaking. Right. Uh, and yeah, and it's been rumbling for a while. It's probably been shaking for a while with stress, yeah. And thinking about the F so we did on burnout. But yeah, when it's full blast, you can't see anything, leave it alone. Stop it, stop techniquesifying, stop doing everything, just leave it alone. And if you can, almost turn your back on it for a bit and do something more interesting because paint will dry with the whether you're sat there staring at it or not. The snow globe will settle whether you're sat there staring at it or not.

SPEAKER_01 33:45

That's true. This day will 24 hours will pass no matter what you do. So, how do you want to spend them?

SPEAKER_02 33:51

Listening to no, I'm not doing that. No, no, don't do it. I'm not doing another hip hop.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

I'm literally gonna mute him the next time he puts his phone up to the mic.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

So I ain't gonna put him back. Uh yeah, so uh we well, we hope that kind of um that kind of insight, the overview of looking at what we're desensitized and resensitized. If you feel like you've re-lapsed or you feel like the anxiety is really high and you're struggling and you're on the hamster wheel, just just frame it as ah, I'm having a few adrenaline rushes recently, and my nervous system has just been a bit resensitized now, and it will come back to homeostasis if I allow it to. By the way, I did use the word nervous system here, be wary of a lot of nonsense on social media about hacking nervous systems and pinching your ear, so the polyvagal thing makes you fall asleep and never have experienced feelings again. In this community, we've got lots of obsessive and compulsive people, so try. Whilst that might be helpful for a lot of people, just be wary of that. I don't know if you want to add anything, Drew.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

No, I I can't anything to that. Otherwise, I'll get off on a unhinged rant about nervous system regulation. So I'll just leave it. Yeah, we'll leave that for another episode. Should we do uh a little more community stuff? We get some questions, we get some did it anyways. Let's let's do a did it anyway. Let's do it. We'll do an audio did it anyway. This is a really good one, so let's get to it.

SPEAKER_00 35:13

Hi guys, um, my name's Holly. Feel free to use my name. I'm actually currently sending in my do it anyway, whilst I'm doing it anyway. Um if I'm a bit out of breath, it's because I'm up to the field with my horses, mucking them out. It's not all glamorous having horses. Um, but yeah, I was really sort of anxious coming up here. It used to be some things that I did all the time. I'd come up here in the pitch black on my own, and then when anxiety took over, I kind of couldn't come up here unless I had a safe person. I was always thinking that something was gonna happen. What if one of the horses kicked me? What if I collapsed and there was nobody around? Um, and I had those thoughts today because people that were meant to come up with me weren't able to in the end, and I was like, oh, I just won't go, um, they'll be fine, I can go up tomorrow when something's with me. But I thought, no, I'm gonna do it anyway. It's a sunny day, it's cold in London, but it's a nice sunny day, and I've come up here and spending time with them, and I'm doing it anyway, and I'm feeling really good for it. And I'm still having those sort of niggling anxious thoughts, but I'm able to sort of use my logical brain rather my anxious brain, and I'm getting it done, and I am starting to enjoy myself. Um so yeah, I just wanted to send that in. Thanks guys for everything you do.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

And we are glad you sent that in. That's outstanding. Well done. I love what you said. I'm sending my do it anyway, did it anyway while I'm doing it anyway. That was great.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

I like that. Yeah, we encourage that as well. Yeah, 100%. Uh that's really good. And uh everyone can relate to that. All the the threat responses suggesting to you, you know, what if your horse kicks you, no one's there to rescue you, whatever. And you're like, I'm gonna roll the dice, the pentamillion gun here, and just assume that I'll be okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Yeah, and I'm sure it felt super risky to our friend Holly. And thanks, by the way, for letting us use your name, Holly. But yeah, you know, yeah, I'm sure it felt like she was taking a huge risk, and that's how she learned that it wasn't as risky as she always thought it was.

SPEAKER_02 37:08

So super well done. Yeah. Uh um do we got any others? Or we can answer a question.

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Yeah, I got a question, so I can read this one out. Um I this person did not say it was okay to say their name, so I'll just read the question. And the question is, I uh hi Josh and Drew. I struggle a lot with intrusive thoughts, but not even just the thoughts themselves, but the need, and this person used quotes, to self-disclose them to whoever they were about afterwards for reassurance. And in a uh for example, taboo sexual thought about X, guilt about having a thought, and the compulsion to tell X about the thought out of honesty and get that reassurance that it's okay to have the thought. I try to tolerate this feeling of the need to self-disclose, but I find myself constantly checking, do I still feel I need to tell this person about the thought? I've listened to your episode on intrusive thoughts as well as on health anxiety, and I think I understand this habit as a compulsion. I guess what I wanted to know is how can I deal with this need to self-disclose and the guilt, and how can I distinguish what is self-disclosing versus what is just being honest, because honesty is one of my core values. Thank you so much. I appreciate you guys.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Oh well, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

That's a great question, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Yeah, that's a good one. Well, that I mean, this sounds textbook uh OCD and well done for um kind of identifying these things. That's part half the battle is being like, I'm noticing I'm doing these behaviors, I've noticed I'm doing this so well done. Yeah, uh with OCD, a lot of um one of the a common compulsion actually with OCD, because OCD taps into your guilt often, uh, is to confess. It's a confession compulsion, and there's loads. I must confess, you know, I must confess, uh, because it's a response to that threat response, because we want we believe that confessing shortcuts that uncertainty and stops it to make us feel better. This is why people with OCD do compulsions. I know I'm one of them. Yeah, although I try not to do compulsions, uh, and it and it's like kind of oh you this feeling of urgency, threat, anxiety, and guilt this can all end now when you confess this very minor thing, probably not even a thing, yeah, you know, and of course you try and leave it alone, but the threat response on OCD wants all of your attention. So we'll pitch to you, hmm, how else can I get their attention? Okay. Well, how do you know this isn't just confessing? See, you should be honest. OCD is best friends with Craig the Critic. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

And I it will attach itself to that. I I love this person, it's great because she can recognize honesty as one of their core core values. That's good. But you see how OCD will be like Yeah, but you all you have to be. What do you mean you're not gonna do this compulsion? Aren't you an honest person? It's a core value, you're supposed to do it. This isn't OCD, this is just you being an honest person.

SPEAKER_02 40:03

Oh, yeah. Yeah, OCD will do no matter what your theme is, that's the last you know you're doing well when it uses Craig the Craig. It's like Craig, I need you out. Stand up, man, it's game time. Yeah, you know, I can't do this on my own because they're just dismissing me as OCD. Yep. And Craig the Craig gets up off the bench, strips, stretch, strips down, walks over next to them, and goes, then goes for your values.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Yeah. If you don't say if you don't comp if you don't confess here, you're not being honest.

SPEAKER_02 40:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, well, actually, you should check your plugs because you're supposed to be a caring parent. Right. It's you know, yeah, yeah. Or you should wash your hands one more time. Because what if you infect a loved one? How selfish.

unknown 40:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:43

Craig the Craig's got all these cards. You know, um, no matter what theme of your OCD is, you know, like it's it'll do it. It'll just do it.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

And it doesn't have to live in reality, it can make up whatever it wants, which makes it even more insidious. You're using the rules of like logic and the laws of the universe in reality, and it just can make up whatever it feels like making up at any given time.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

We Drew and I plan on doing an OCD kind of three-parter at some point. Um, because it has we can go, it takes a while to go through the themes and stuff. We'll get different guests on as well, and I'll give you my take on it. But there'll be like a three-part season on just specifically OCD stuff. Tune in though, because it relates a lot to anxiety disorders and stuff, but uh as uh and all the other anxiety disorders, but it's nice to know kind of you know, there'll be some people with OCD with their specific theme. Again, the theme doesn't really matter, but it's nice to feel seen. And I know what it's like to feel seen, particularly when you feel very isolated.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

Oh, and one quick thing about the core value thing. My I like to use, and I didn't invent this, I don't remember who mentioned it, but I like to use a runway analogy. If you're piloting a plane, you're trying to land on the center of the runway. Well, OCD has you all the way off on the left. You're missing the runway completely. The way to get to the center is not to steer for the center. We steer all the way off the right side of the runway so that we start to learn that we actually land in the middle. So sometimes you do have to back away from that core value. I guess I'll have to take the risk of not being honest, which goes against my core value. I recognize that, and I'm gonna have to deal with that discomfort of disobeying that for a little while. So that I OCD doesn't put a crowbar in and leverage my value against me. So I'm gonna have to just I know I'm an honest person. I want to be honest, but for now I'm gonna have to maybe just abandon that, aim for the other side of the runway so I start to land in the middle again. That's spot on, yeah. Yeah. I took that. You've come out with some crackers today, you. This may be like my best performance of the season.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

I could be wrong, but and I'm gonna make it about me because it was it was about the hip-hop music. Hip hop brings out the best of us all.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Hey, listen, every episode of Disorder is greater than the sum of its parts. So, yes, we need all of those things.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Uh I think we're at time now, actually. 32 minutes, we're good. Yeah, we've um the I've really enjoyed this. We'll be back soon. Uh, we'll talk more about maybe neuropathways next. I think that's really good, particularly with habits as well. Yeah, um, I think it was helpful for me in my recovery. And um, thank you for all those that have pre-ordered. If I don't know when this is out now. Uh oh, soon, yeah. Thank you to all that's pre-ordered, and how does that make you feel? Some really exciting things happening. I'm uh um keep an eye out for it on social media and stuff. If you don't follow us on social media, I'm anxiety Josh. Uh Drew is the anxious truth. Um, subscribe to the mail in list if you want to. And drop us, did it anyways? Questions and everything on disordered.fm. Thanks for listening, guys. We'll see you next week.