Anxiety Recovery: Monitoring Mundane Moods (Episode 63)

SPEAKER_04 0:00

People can become fixated on or a little bit obsessed with, monitoring their mood. Anything that's neutral or low, threat response kicks in, and I have to try and do something about that or figure out why I'm feeling this way.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Or I need to hit the mood that feels just right. People with panic disorder in GAD, you might be checking to see if it's gone away.

SPEAKER_04 0:19

Negative expression of mood or affect was punished or pushed away.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

What unites them all though, as well, though, is that the threat response has decided that a less than optimal mood has become a threat, and therefore we must keep an eye on it.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

When you've gained the awareness that you're doing it, you're already starting to move in a good direction.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Anxiety recovery is not measured by the absence of bad feelings. It's your ability to tolerate their existence.

SPEAKER_04 0:53

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 63 of the podcast. And this is the alliteration episode entitled Monitoring Mundane Moodles. I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist in training specializing in anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York, in the US of A. I'm an author, a podcaster, an educator, an advocate in this community, and a former sufferer of anxiety disorders and depression for many years of my life on and off.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

And I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh. I'm a psychotherapist based in the UK who specializes in working with anxiety disorders. I'm previous sufferer, podcast co-host, and author of the book, and how does that make you feel? And a good book it is. Welcome, dude. Hi Drew, how are you doing?

SPEAKER_04 1:38

I'm good. I feel like we haven't recorded one of these in a long time. Like two weeks.

SPEAKER_02 1:42

Yeah, no, we have two weeks off. I've missed you. I've missed you. Oh. That's so that that feeling will slowly dissipate. Well, rapidly dissipate.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

I'll give you about 45 seconds before you cannot wait to get out. Oh, yeah. Um, okay. So today we've decided that this episode is called Monitoring Mundane Moods, which is uh we're gonna focus on the idea that people can become fixated on or a little bit obsessed with monitoring their mood. We've talked about the fear of depression, but this is a little different. This is am I having the right mood? Is this an okay mood?

SPEAKER_02 2:12

It's one of those behaviors that's associated with, you know, you know how anxiety disorders overlap, like panic disorder, OCD. It's obsessive and compulsive. A lot of people with OCD or who've been frightened by panic, or you know, they chase this feeling of satiation or feeling things that feel just right or feel safe. And sometimes one of the compulsions can be to monitor so things feel just right. Despite us being humans, when our moods and feelings fluctuate throughout the day, all feelings are transient, and it can it can become quite obsessive. Um, so if you're listening, try to understand and conceptualize why you're monitoring. Maybe you're afraid of panic, maybe you are just trying to chase a feeling, maybe you've got dementeophobia and you're afraid of going crazy. So I need to monitor. Ask yourselves, why am I monitoring this mood? What is it? Is it just because I don't like anxiety? Is it because I have to reach a certain place to feel a certain way? Or do I feel like, you know, I'm gonna, you know, this, I'm afraid that I'm gonna lose control.

SPEAKER_04 3:21

Yeah, I might be afraid of developing depression. We did an episode on the fear of depression, which is not depression, it's the fear of depression. Or other people just monitor their moods for signs of their anxiety disorder returning or flaring back up. If I feel a certain way, that might be an indicator that my recovery is crumbling and I'm going back to the beginning and I'm gonna be screwed forever. So there's a lot of reasons why people do this.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Would you agree that in short it's I'm monitoring because the ultimate fear is I'm afraid of losing control?

SPEAKER_04 3:50

Uh yeah, I think I'm on right. I'm monitoring because I need to find some sort of meaning in every state that I have so that I can control the outcome. We're doing this episode today because we get we've had a lot of requests about this, haven't we? Yeah. We had a couple of uh audio questions sent in, but we also had an email question, which I will read out to sort of kick us off, even though we're three minutes in, it's hardly a kickoff. But this message, I don't know if we can use this person's name, so I won't. Uh the the question is hi both. Very diplomatic, both. She doesn't say her names. Um, hi both. Thank you for your podcast. It's been pivotal in my recovery. I had a question about feeling happiness. I often stop myself from feeling happy or from being happy or enjoying a moment out of fear of feeling low again. I'm scared to be disappointed. I'm scared to let myself go and really enjoy the things in life I used to enjoy because that makes me vulnerable to losing that happiness. So I opt to feeling neutral about everything instead. But it doesn't really feel like I'm living this way. Any advice? Thank you, question sender-inter. That was a that was an excellent question. And we had a couple of voicemails too that were all about that. I find my I'm constantly monitoring my mood as soon as I feel anything that's neutral or low, you know, a threat response kicks in and I have to try and do something about that or figure out why I'm feeling this way.

SPEAKER_02 5:09

Yeah, I think this the first step is to identify why it is we're feeling it. Uh obviously, anxiety disorders present differently in different people. Um if you're someone with just right OCD, you know, you might be feeling like oh, I need to hit the mood that feels just right. A bit similar to uh just right OCD that presents like this needs to look just right or feel just right, or or that door handle needs to turn just right. Sometimes that can apply to your mood. Uh people with panic disorder in GAD, you might be checking to see if it's gone away. Maybe you're a perfectionist trying to um oh completely overcome anxiety disorder. And what better way to measure that than by constantly measuring my progress of anxiety disorder recovery by monitoring my mood? Yeah, that's a compulsion. We don't do that. Um, fear of fear, just like I just don't like how I feel, so I'm gonna keep monitoring, see if it's gone. That keeps us in the cycle. Step one, I don't know if you agree, Drew, is I'd say, well, identify why I'm doing this at first because it often it's automatic.

SPEAKER_04 6:25

Yeah, you know what? And I would say step sort of point one even comes before that. It's not really a step, but when you've gained the awareness that you're doing it, good job. You're already starting to move in a good direction. Because yeah, as we do it and we're not even aware we're doing it, and then suddenly you have a day where it's like, oh, wait a minute, what am I doing here? Constantly checking on my mood. Excellent for building that awareness. That only comes after some preliminary work. So big up to you guys if you have figured this out already. Um, I think another one would be I've never really learned how to handle negative things, or maybe my past experiences are in a culture or a family where negative expression of mood or affect or feeling down was punished or pushed away. Please don't have a bad day because then you're gonna make my day bad, says mom or dad, or maybe a partner or somebody in a you were in a relationship with.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Sometimes that yeah, emotionally conservative people, like, yeah, um, oh no, I can't have bad feelings because that's bad and I'm I'm failing and and and that's not allowed.

SPEAKER_04 7:24

Yeah. Or my bad mood is gonna ruin everybody else's day, and my job is to make everybody happy and take care of everybody. I can't be down. So there's a million different reasons why people do this. Or I've never, I've just never I've had people tell me, like, I think I've never learned how to handle like negative feelings. I've run through them my whole life. I have people tell tell me that. And you know what? Again, you know, kudos for coming to that awareness because then you can work on it.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

What unites them all though, as well, though, is that the threat response has decided that a less than optimal mood has become a threat, and therefore we must keep an eye on it.

SPEAKER_04 8:00

Yeah. The belief about mood, I think that starts to become almost pervasive, because nobody worries about this. Is a good question because it presents as I don't let myself feel happy because I know that won't last. Correct. Because, like Josh said earlier, every feeling is transient. If you're taking notes on today's episode, write that down and put it on a sticky pad somewhere. Every feeling you ever had in your entire life is transient, none ever stays. So no one's ever really like happy and thinks, oh no, what if this happiness never stops? No one ever thinks that. We know it will stop. So rely on that. But I think also the whole idea is the my belief about mood is that my mood must be a measure of my mental health. And that's simply not true.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

It's a really quite powerful question, isn't it? Um, I often feel that I stop myself from being happy or enjoying a moment out of fear of feeling low again.

SPEAKER_03 8:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:59

Um, I'm scared to be disappointed, I'm scared to let myself go and really enjoy the things in life that I used to enjoy because that makes me vulnerable to losing that happiness. Well, you will. Right. All feelings are transient. You're allowed to do both.

unknown 9:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

But here's the thing: it will come back again. It's okay. It's not like it will just come, it's okay. Like, it's not like, oh, you know, I'm gonna smash 10 pints of beer and have artificial happiness, but now I've stopped doing that because the day after I feel like I'm in the doldrums of hell. Yeah, um, yeah, that's understandable. Um, but you don't have to have extreme peaks and drops. But if you're it's okay to let it go, you you allowed that threat response to enjoy that happiness. Here's the thing it might be a habit for you to catch yourself and not enjoy that happiness, but you don't need to be in merekat mode. I always use this. Oh, it feels dangerous and odd to not be in meerkat mode, to not monitor, practice a bit. It will feel automatic and you'll find yourself stopping yourself, but go easy, be like, ah, caught myself stopping myself. Actually, I'm gonna try and re-engage again. Repetition, being kind, ignoring Craig the critic.

SPEAKER_04 10:17

It's Craig the critic.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

And using, you know, the the principles that we say, it's okay to keep going and you're allowed it, you know.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

Yeah, and it's it feels scary for a lot of people because depending on what the threat is that you're looking for and monitoring for, depression, relapse, whatever it is, if you if you step away from the monitoring, it's almost automatic, like you said. It's what you do with the monitoring. So when you discover, oh, I'm checking on my mood again, okay. I notice that I'm thinking about my mood. I notice that I'm, you know, a little afraid of how I feel. But the trick is instead of launching into an extended dialogue in your head about your mood and choosing to engage in that inner dialogue to figure out why and think about it and project what it might mean and then take some sort of evasive action. Well, what if I do none of those things? What if I just acknowledge that I'm I'm noticing my mood and I and I let whatever mood comes up comes up. That feels really risky to people a lot of times.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Yeah. I mean, a lot of people with anxiety disorders see safety and new feeling neutral. You know, because you can't get hurt then, you know, it's a bit like that cowardly football fan that turns up to the cup final and rather than being partisan and throwing everything on the line, you know, like, come on, you can do it. You know, come on, team. Even though we're the underdogs and I've been excited all week, it's gonna hurt. It's gonna hurt when you get beat. Yeah, you know, because you took a gamble, but that's the reason why people love football. My team's never won anything, but I like the hope and I like the excitement and all those things. You said in your question because it makes me vulnerable to losing that happiness. You know, it's okay. You can cope when you're not happy, and you will cope when you are happy. You even said at the end of the question, you know, I opt to feel neutral because but it doesn't feel like I'm living. Part of living is feeling naff, and part of living is feeling elated. It's okay to allow more peaks and troughs. But I like the roller coaster analogy, you know. Just picture an old school wooden roller coaster up and down, you know. I can have fun on them. You know, imagine if your roller coaster was you sit in, you strap in, and it's just one straight line. I want the money back. Yeah, yeah. That that that sucked. I'm safe, yeah. But that sucked. Yeah, you know, whereas actually, oh, I really hate the climb, I hate the build, oh, oh, there's the joy, and that's the whole point. I know it sounds quite cliche, but it's okay. You're not gonna lose control by allowing to ride the waves.

SPEAKER_04 13:07

Yeah, it's interesting because nobody ever worries about losing control when they're happy. Oh, what if I get so happy that I have a psychotic break? So we never worry about that. We only worry about like, well, what if I get so down? Or what if I get so upset?

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Oh, I don't know. I I think have you encountered that? What if I have a lot? It's very common. People don't like feeling happy. I'm about to people with dementiophobia, yes, you must look out for this truth. Uh, people are afraid to be happy. I've had this in the past because they misinterpret that happiness as a threat to their stabless. What if this happiness actually means I'm crazy, I'm developing um uh a condition that I can't monitor and I need, you know, and it can and I can never be stabilized again. And I, in air quotes, go crazy. Um ultimately sphere of losing control. Oh, it's a really common one I hear, particularly with GAD, particularly with people with latent OCD and panic disorder, is happiness. As soon as they find themselves happy, they immediately become anxious because they're like, well, what if this is the sign of me going crazy now? Because I'm never happy. I've had an anxiety disorder for five, six years, ten years. Now I'm suddenly finding myself happy. Is this my brain going crazy and flooding itself with dopamine and serotonin? Oh, I'm definitely losing control. Safety is in neutrality, not the allowance of being happy.

SPEAKER_04 14:33

You know, that's so interesting because if I think about it, and I appreciate that. That was a lot of insight that I now can take with me. But I've also had people looking for bipolar. That I hear all the time. Like, especially people who are getting further along in recovery and they start to have times where they feel a little neutral or they start to feel happy again. Like organic happiness shows up now and then, like it's supposed to in life.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:56

They accidentally interpret that as is this is this a manic episode? Do I have bipolar now? Because then it goes away.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Similar to that. I mean, don't get me wrong, I work with people with bipolar and an anxiety disorder. And the the tricky question there is, well, what do I monitor for? Because yeah, you it's okay to monitor if you suddenly find yourself in a in a in a quite manic state. Uh again, it doesn't really need the urgency, but like working with yourself and people around you, it's a bit like, you know, am I am I in a happy, elated, excited state here, or is this kind of turned into quite a prolonged manic state? Because I do need to monitor that. But that's a far, no, that's a long way away from yeah, oh, I'm feeling happy, and then the threat response and the amygdala stepping in. Amygdala. Going, no, no, no, this requires urgency now.

SPEAKER_04 15:49

Yeah. It's so interesting though, because in we could find underneath that and the and the mood monitoring thing, it's it's that thing where I'm going to try to find meaning and decipher my emotions. So they, you know, people who hear about they don't have bipolar, they've never been diagnosed bipolar, they've never had a manicure episode in their lives. But I've heard about that. Now that's in my head. And now when I tried to find meaning and decipher and figure out my state, oh, this could be, I could be, that could be manic. This is just bipolar. Because I've heard like, well, I got, you know, I had a really good time with my kids the other day. Cool. Yeah, but does that mean, but then it then I the next day I didn't feel so great anymore? Am I bipolar? Oh, because you were happy and now you're not happy anymore. So they try to find meaning in that instead of recognizing that this is the human condition. And they find a threat where none exists. And no matter what you're monitoring for in your mood, that becomes a thing. I have to figure out my mood, I have to decipher my mood and my states and my emotions, or or I can miss something important here.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Yeah. Yeah. And people with anxiety disorders, uh, and if you struggle with intrusive thoughts, the threat response will try to find those suggestions. Oh, you've got a cousin who's got schizophrenia, which is by the way, by the way, if you listen, you've got schizophrenia, that's cool. You know, what we're saying is what the anxious person is saying is, what if I lose control? And the way that presents is untreated schizophrenia or untreated bipolar. They're not bad things. You can live a happy life. One of my best friends has um uh psychosis, you know, he doesn't have an anxiety disorder, he just has psychosis, like, all right, there they are again, stick my headphones in, not listening to that, cracks on with stuff, you know. Um, but it's just like it's what what I mean by at the core of it all is what if I lose control? It's always what if I lose control, but what if that loss of control presents as this diagnosis of my cousin who's got bipolar, this cousin of this diagnosis of my uncle who uh and this family history of schizophrenia? What if it presents in that way? What if I go crazy in some way and the brain forages for suggestions? Yeah, then we can misinterpret low mood, high mood, anything that isn't neutral. And I think this is what the question sender inner is suggesting.

SPEAKER_04 18:11

Yeah, I would agree with that. Or it might, you know, the feared outcome of losing control might be I spiral into the depths of major depressive disorder. Yeah. Or my anxiety disorder comes back. I feel pretty recovered, but like somehow my emotion will re-trigger my panic disorder, and I'll be stuck in my house again for three years. Like, okay, well, that's your brain trying to make meaning of a normal variation in your affect, your mood. Just that's the way we live.

SPEAKER_02 18:37

Really important, particularly for the perfectionist people who apply perfectionism to anxiety disorder recovery. One of my favorite quotes by me is um, you know, anxiety recovery is not measured by the absence of bad feelings, it's your ability to tolerate their existence, you know, because everyone's like, Oh, I've been a whole week, I've not been anxious, I'm doing great. Well, yeah, that's one indicator, but also no, recovery is my willingness to be with that uncertainty, and so this question, and it's a great question. This whole episode applies to the people who think that, oh, I've not been anxious for a whole month, I'm doing great. No, you're doing great when you don't mind the peaks and troughs of your emotions and moods oscillating and fluctuating, and you go with that. Anxiety recovery is not the accumulation of its absence, it's your ability to tolerate the uncertainty that that it throws at you.

SPEAKER_04 19:54

Wow. See, we gave Josh a soundboard and you pressed that, Drew.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

I said don't press it. You were so impressed.

SPEAKER_04 20:02

I was so enthusiastic about your quote from you. Um that might be the highlight moment of the episode. My favorite quote from me. But you're right though. He is correct. I cannot argue with that logic. Recovery has nothing to do with I feel good all the time. So therefore, that is my proof that I am recovered. No, I can tolerate any way I feel and handle.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Feeling really happy, really about myself, and I think it's the first sign of narcissistic personality disorder.

SPEAKER_04 20:33

Oh, I can give him a hundred signs of that since I met you. Like you have to wait till today. Um, I think what's funny about and also Josh is sitting on what do you are you on the bosom ball?

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Yeah, I'm on a medicine ball because my hips are so bouncing ruined, and I just bounce around on it all the time. So to stop that. I highly recommend if you have struggled with back pain and hip pain and stuff like that. Medicine ball.

SPEAKER_04 20:53

And for me, I I get to see when Josh is especially pleased with himself because there's a little extra bounce. Like it literally, like you tell, like, oh, he's so proud of himself. We're gonna bounce it on his bosom ball as but the point being, let me give you one of my favorite quotes from me now. I'll follow suit. So Josh is right, but also when you are triggered by your change in mood, I define recovery, this is really geeky, but it's a delta t problem where t equals time. So in a moment, you'll notice uh I'm feeling a little down. That's the omg moment. Oh my god, that little trigger. How fast do you get to oh well? So it's the time difference between oh my god, and oh well. And when you're in the thick of it, that time difference is either infinity, you never get to oh well, or it's weeks or months. A recover person gets there in seconds. Give me an eagle. I know you want to do it. Yeah, recovery is a delta T problem. So when you do notice That you're being a little triggered and worried about your mood. How quickly can you readjust to like, oh, I'm human, I will have varying moods, I can handle this.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

This is the way that matters. Uh, I feel uncertain. Yeah, oh yeah, that's the whole point. Uh it's not chasing neutrality. What a lot of these um compulsions are oh no, I need to get back to feeling neutral. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no. This is it now. You've set sail. Go with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:30

Yeah, feel whatever you feel. I we we it would not be an episode about mood and emotion if we did not call out the toxic culture in social media that constantly preaches that you should be able to engineer happiness, choose happiness, choose gratitude. Like somehow or other, we have this constant message coming at us. And yeah, I'm gonna take some shots at that. That you can you can, in fact, if you hack it properly, always vibrate at a high frequency, always be joyful, always feel deep gratitude. Who said that? So who who decided that was a thing? That is so unfair. Because if you think that your job is to try to always feel good, you will never win. Because that's just not possible. We're just rays of sunshine today, aren't we? Like sometimes we struggle, and that could be a little struggle. Yeah, it could be a big struggle.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Um because what when you measure it like I look back over the month and I'll be like, actually, yeah, I feel I I live a very content, happy life. If I shrunk that window down from a month to an hour, then I'm gonna misinterpret the data there, aren't I? This whole hour I felt like rubbish. Well, guess what? I've had whole days where I've just had it, been in a bad, grumpy mood, and that's okay. Because the day after, I'm right. Oh, I'm right now, you know, it's okay. It just happens. We're humans, sometimes we just get grumpy moods, you know. I was chatting to Drew the other day, he was a proper grumpy get. He was finding it really, really amusing, you know. Does that mean you know, no, but also you just go with it. We're not ruminating about why the mood was different. There could be multiple facets, it doesn't matter in the same. You know, I feel quite I feel quite good today. I'm a bit tired, you know, it's okay. It just that we're never gonna be sometimes you feel elated, um, and that's great, and well done, and fair play to you. And sometimes you're gonna feel 30% or whatever you do, but the body's always um going through loads of chemical changes, interactions, and associations, and stress, and happiness, and what it you'd never it's never gonna present the same.

SPEAKER_04 24:43

Yeah, I think left alone. I mean, listen, sometimes people misinterpret that. Like, oh, my job is to just sit and struggle for days on end. No, of course not. You can engage in wellness activities, you could, you could do things that feed yourself in terms of mentally, emotionally, spiritually. Yeah, you can do all those things, but we do not get to force the outcomes. We just don't, you know, we can support ourselves, we can lean on our friends and our family and have a good bitch session and vent a little and maybe feel better. Who knows? Maybe you take a walk in the park and feel a little better. You could do that. You just can't have a sense of urgency in the outcome. Oh my God, I've got to go to the beach and walk along the shore so that I feel better, or I'm screwed. Well, I can choose to go and walk on the beach if I want to, but maybe I'll feel better at the end, or maybe I won't. I don't know. I've got that, but I've got that defiant thing as well.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Do you every time you see a sign that says choose happiness? I'm like, oh, don't tell me what to do. I'll choose to be miserable now. Yeah, you do that.

SPEAKER_04 25:38

I feel that, I really do.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

I thought I was the only one, like, oh, it's it's it's a it's a lot of huge psychological thing. It's like it's that thing inside you and your mate really enthusiastically says to you, you know, you need to watch this show on Netflix. You know, you see how really excited they are, you know, like and they really want to share with you a loved one, a friend, you should watch this show. And then you and deep down inside are like, I ain't watching shit. And then you and then six months later, of your own volition, you watch it yourself, and you break that person's heart because you've forgotten that conversation. And then you say, Have you seen the show called Baby Reindeer or whatever? Oh, yeah, yeah, it's a really good show, and you see that person's uh eyes glaze up and break because you prioritized your own need to give yourself credit, you know, in rather than listening to a friend. Have a word with yourself. Also, you're the same as me and Drew. Well done. Yeah, maladjusted hard. No, it's just that in the thing like I I I see it as threat. I kind of want to come to the conclusion myself.

SPEAKER_04 26:48

Um okay, so I'm gonna give somebody listening today homework sometime in early 2025. Send us a voicemail on or or an email on disorder.fm because sometime in maybe January, February, I'm gonna call you, dude, and I'm gonna tell you how great kickboxer one is. And it'd be like, I told you about that in May.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

And I'd be like, Drew hasn't you ever seen kickboxer with Jean-Claude Van Damme? What's wrong with? No wonder you developed an anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_04 27:16

Yeah, yeah, you know that would have solved everything. It's true. But uh yeah, so like sometime in about eight months, I'm gonna tell you, oh my god, this movie was so good, and you'd be like, Yeah, I told you about that you didn't watch.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Yes, absolutely. Um, yeah, I mean, but in what should we do? What should we do? Should we get to some did it anyways?

SPEAKER_04 27:37

Or what have we got today? We do. Well, we got a couple of audio did it anyway, so let's play one of those for sure, and then uh let me mute the one we don't want to hear first, and then we'll go on from there. So here we go.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

Hi Josh and Drew. My name is Jamie, and you can use my name. So wanted to share a pretty big Did It Anyway with you all. Three weeks ago, I got married, which was an exposure in and of itself. Just lots of emotions, a full uh weekend full of events, dinners, obviously the day of you're busy the whole day, and not really a lot of ability to escape or run or hide. Just yesterday, we got back from a week-long honeymoon, which is like I can't even believe I'm saying that. It involved a three and a half hour flight uh one way to a place I've never been, with seven days of being out of my safe uh places, my home, my bed, my animals, restaurants I've never been to, just not that long ago, felt like I couldn't even sit in a drive-thru line or eat out without being in sheer panic. So it's really shocking to me that I was able to get on a plane for three and a half hours is just like mind-boggling. The whole last weeks and months were not without, you know, stress and high anxiety, panic attacks. There were plenty leading up to and during the honeymoon, but I'm just so proud of myself that I was able to do something that I remember a year ago, I didn't know if I would be able to even have a wedding and invite a bunch of people and have a big celebration or go on a week-long vacation. And I did. So just wanted to share that with you all. You've helped me so much. Um, and it just means a lot to me that I was able to do those things.

SPEAKER_02 29:16

Yeah, well, James, and congratulations on uh your marriage, and it sounds like it went really well, and the honeymoon went really well. And the biggest congratulations is to you for being brave and and leaning into that uncertainty.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

Oh, yeah. And for, you know, thank you for sharing that. You know, you could hear us talk all day long about this stuff, but I think it's so powerful to hear actual, real people, your peers, say like, I didn't think I could do it. And like, as opposed to you, but I'm just talking about kickboxer. Uh droning on and on and self-indulgent nonsense.

SPEAKER_02 29:49

In that spirit, have we got another one?

SPEAKER_04 29:52

We do. Let's do another audio did it anyway, then we'll read out some stuff. So let's hear what Maddie has to say.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Hi, Drew, hi Josh. Um, this is Maddie. I'm from the United States. You guys can use my name if you'd like. Um, I'm calling in to share a really exciting Did It Anyways with you guys. Um, I've had different types of anxiety for basically my entire life, different themes of OCD and such. Um, but about two and a half years ago, I developed some agoraphobia and driving anxiety. Um, it was pretty rough at one point. I wasn't able to drive to um the grocery store that was not even a half mile away from my apartment. Um, I was basically homebound at that point. For my entire life, I've dreamt of traveling internationally. And at one point, I just didn't think that that would ever be an option for me. I actually just got back from my dream trip to Spain and Portugal. Um, it was such an incredible experience. And like I, like I said, I never thought that I'd be able to do something like that. Um, and I wanted to give you guys a huge thank you because so much of your content about, you know, agoraphobia and about, you know, tolerating anxiety and uncertainty and you know, floating, accepting all that kind of stuff. Um, I used it every single day on my trip. I'm not gonna say that I wasn't anxious because I was. I really didn't think that I could do it at times, but I did it anyways, and I brought the anxiety with me, and I'm so glad that I did because I had the trip of a lifetime. After two extremely long flights and a lot of jet lag and a lot of traveling, I'm home and I'm safe and I'm feeling confident. So thank you guys so much.

SPEAKER_02 31:28

Yeah, well done. That's brilliant. Um, and thanks for sharing that with us. Uh, if you've got your own did it anyways, there is no did it anyway that is too big or small. We celebrate them all. If you struggle to get to the end of your road and you did it, we want to hear from you. If you did something that's monumental to you that you didn't think you could do, we want to hear it. You know, it doesn't necessarily require you getting on a plane and going across the world, even though that was magnificent. It could just be something that's conventionally quite simple, but in like for an in an anxiety disorder land, we know what it's like. You know, I struggle to even go to the supermarket and we will celebrate them all. Well done, no matter how that presents. And you can send in emails and voice notes to disorder.fm.

SPEAKER_04 32:20

If you want to send in a voice mode, note by the way, just go to disorder.fm and hit the blue button that says send voicemail for those of you wondering about that, because we do get some questions on that now and then. Um, I have one more written did it anyway. And then should we take our written question? What do you want to do? Let's have a did it anyway. I have to read this one, and I I again I'm not sure that any that we were allowed to use this person's name, so I won't. This one is a short one, but I love the way she started it. Did it anyway with like a slew of exclamation points. Oh my god, guys, I cannot believe it. But after a very long time, three years of agoraphobia and panic disorder, I went for my first driving lesson in a long time. I was freaking out completely before going in in tears, pacing, but I remembered all the things you said, all my therapy, which I'm very lucky to have, and I did it anyway. A new light switched on today, and there is hope at the end of the tunnel. Thanks for all you do. Yeah, well done. Yeah, you see, like that's just like one driving lesson. It's not a trip to Spain or Portugal, but or a wedding or a honeymoon, but that is so significant.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

That's what we like about it. You're still going toe-to-toe with fear. Um, I just had a little one to read out. I'm uh they didn't include their name. Uh I'm so glad I stumbled upon your podcast in search of help from DPDR, common one. I just finished the episode on it, and I've never felt more seen. I'm a medical student who's read all the literature on the topic and still struggle to find an answer. Really thought I was going crazy until I heard you guys talk about it. It truly made me think of DPDR in a whole new way and not keep ruminating about it. It's helped me more than anything I've ever read. Thank you guys.

SPEAKER_04 34:10

Thank you very much. What you're saying is we're better than medical schools. I ain't saying 100% we're better than medical school. Good to hear.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

I know that's a great did it anyway. I've just shifted my perspective on DPD. I love it. We got time for a question, haven't we? We do. We got a few minutes. Okay, here we go. Um, this is from Dan. Hi there. For years I've had health anxiety about various physical concerns. However, I'm now thinking it shifted into mental health anxiety as I'm terrified about my own mental health and losing control. Ties in nicely to today's episode. I wanted to ask what is a what is a common compulsion for mental health anxiety? Because I find myself reading every book on anxiety and listening to every podcast about mental health, anxiety, OCD, looking for a miracle thought or cure. Am I compulsing by doing this and not even realizing it? When do you draw the line between compulsion and actively seeking information help? And that's posed to you, Drew.

SPEAKER_04 35:21

That's posed to me. I will answer that question. The answer is in the question, the word miracle cure. To me, that's your that's it right there. And also, I think the length of time, if you keep hearing the same things again and again and again, and you're still looking for what you know. Um, I'm looking for something today. This just this might be the thing that actually clicks. There's a really good chance here in that compulsion.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Resource gathering is a common compulsion as well. Maybe there's a podcast I haven't heard yet. You know, maybe we did that, and it's like, no, it's a question we've had a few times before. Um, but and we often say on this podcast, it's all right, you don't need to tune in. There was a great did it anyway two episodes ago where it was like, hi guys, I don't listen to you anymore, and that's cool. And we're like, we love hearing that because it's okay, you know. We we don't hide anything here. We we offer the principles of what we we believe to be recovery is. Um, but yeah, I think you already know this as well from your question.

SPEAKER_04 36:20

Good. And I also think a good thing, uh by the way, episode 19 was I'm obsessed with recovery. If you want to go back and listen to that, actually, what a terrible, what an ironic answer to a question about compulsive resource gathering. Go listen to another podcast episode. The irony there did not escape me. But I think also it's the urgency, or if it feels really difficult to not listen to the next podcast episode, that's also good. I don't know, man. But we're really engaging. Come on. I would have FOMO if I didn't listen to disorder. But yeah, if you find like, oh, okay, I'm just not gonna listen. You know, I'm not no podcast this week, and you get to Wednesday and it's like and you're feeling the discomfort, and you're feeling like, yeah, but this isn't good. I'm screwing myself by not listening, that's a good indicator, also.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

Also invite yourself to not research, read, delve, or whatever. And what again, one of the magic rules I often say is do what non-anxious you would do. I don't think non-anxious, there's a difference between non-anxious you maybe want to be read and be informed about what's going on and psychoeducation, stuff like that. Great. But if non-anxious you, after feeling confident that you know how everything works, is still chasing that miracle feeling, miracle thought, then yeah, I think it's it's it's pretty assured you're in compulsion territory there.

SPEAKER_04 37:45

Yeah, the only other thing I'll add, and then we'll wrap it up, is it is always helpful to sit down and have some sort of plan. Because it's when you're resisting a compulsion, which is behavior like that. I'm gonna read, I'm gonna google, I'm gonna scroll today on Instagram, all the anxiety accounts. Well, no, I'm I don't I'm not gonna do that today. So you're resisting your compulsion. What's your plan for an alternate uh course of action? If you try and make it up right then and there when you're feeling like, oh, but I but I need to scroll to see what Josh and Drew said today, that's tough. So go into it already knowing, no, no, no, I have a book that's not about anxiety, and I'm gonna do my best to read one chapter of that book. That's my plan. It can be really helpful. You might not be great at it, but try not to make up what non-anxious you would do on the fly because it's hard to access that sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

Thank you for that question. Really good question. And um, thank you all uh for tuning in. Uh, really appreciate the recent reviews we've had as well. UK is slowly catching up again after my request. Uh we're getting back um on the review front. And uh yeah, make sure you have a lovely weekend ahead and we'll catch you every Friday. Yep, we'll be back. See you guys.