Anxiety Recovery - Learning To Believe In Yourself Again (Episode 131)

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hi Josh, hi Drew. I'm Kai. I'm from Scotland, and you're more than welcome to use my name in this. I unfortunately ended up with appendicitis over the weekend, being agoraphobic and uh suffering from parent disorder. That was uh challenging to say. I ended up having to go down to the doctors. They said I needed to go to the hospital, so did what I had to do, focused on my breezes and I went down to the hospital. I've been in the hospital for two days now, had to get an emergency surgery, get my appendix out, I've got a fear of medication. All of that, absolutely terrifying. Yet here I am. I've not even had one panic attack. I've had shivers, I've been shaking, but I've been fine. And I think we need to give ourselves credit sometimes. All of us can handle so much more than we give ourselves credit for. Push that a little bit harder. Believe in yourself.

SPEAKER_04 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 131 entitled Believing in Yourself or Believe in Yourself. I am Drew Linsolata. I am a therapist practicing in the area of anxiety and anxiety disorders in New York, in the US of A, former sufferer of the very things we talk about here on Disordered, a author on this topic, social media guy, psychoeducator, advocate, and uh yeah, one half of this team that's going to talk about how we can learn to believe in ourselves when anxiety kind of takes that away. And with me, as always, behind the mic in the UK, is I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh.

SPEAKER_05 1:26

I'm a psychotherapist and author based in Manchester in the UK. Uh previous sufferer of panic disorder, OCD, GAD, health anxiety, social anxiety, blada yada, yada yada. And I commit my working life to talking about a very important subject in a world full of misinformation and confusing stuff. And it's a privilege to do that every week.

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Yeah. Welcome back, dude. Glad to have you.

SPEAKER_05 1:52

Yes, really good. And thanks to Kai. Thank you for sending that in. Um, a solid reminder, you know, and for and well done. Give him give him an applause. 100%. Here we go.

SPEAKER_04 2:06

That's like the worst nightmare scenario for so many listeners of disorder, what he had to go through, what Kai had to go through.

SPEAKER_05 2:12

Yeah, it's real, yeah. But this is what anxiety will do. It will like following from the last episode about Craig the Critic, what will it do is it will convince you that you will not cope. You do not have enough. If you if it put you in a situation that is way too much, it will give you a projection, uh, an estimation of your ability to cope, you breaking down, and oh, you can't cope, and and yet look look what Kai's done. You know, it all everything hit the fan, and yet all you can hear is this almost like this pride in his voice, and he wants to share that feeling with other people.

SPEAKER_04 2:55

Yeah. I'll have a, you know, he even acknowledged, like, you know, some shivering, some shaking, some scary moments, but yet here I am. So the prediction that anxiety and Craig the Critic issues, this is gonna be a nightmare. You're not gonna handle it, you will melt, you will explode, you're gonna cause a scene, you're gonna fold, you're gonna crumble, you can't do this, turns out to be wrong. And I love that Kai was able to recognize that. And you know what I really appreciate, and that's why it was the opener of today's episode. That like realization that, like, wow, we we are just telling ourselves bad stories about ourselves. One of the more funny things I ever saw on the internet years ago was somebody who said, like, man, anxiety is just conspiracy theories about yourself. I'm like, that's really good. Yeah, you're right. It's about how we can't handle this. This is too much. That feeling is too strong. And as it turns out, in Kai's case, he was wrong. And by the way, I hope it worked out. Kai, let us know. Hopefully, you're home and feeling better.

SPEAKER_05 3:44

So, yeah, well done, Kai. Uh, it's for some reason in my head, he has a cigar in his mouth and a bottle of whiskey, and he's performing the surgery on himself. He's removing the appendix, and he's just like, and then he gets up, he's like, I did it anyway, and then he's walked off.

SPEAKER_04 4:02

That wasn't so bad after all.

SPEAKER_05 4:05

That's just my brain, and who needs to know about that? Um, yeah, what it does highlight to us as well is how much of a lie anticipatory or anticipatory anxiety is. It is a lie, it will just give you it will project the worst version of yourself, how you see yourself, and try to convince you using the doubt response that that is an accurate hypothesis, an accurate guess of what's gonna happen. And yet what you hear in all these did it anyways, people surprise themselves. And what that means is that hold on, why don't I believe in myself over this anxious projection mixed within a critic? You know, can I surprise myself like these other people? Yeah, well, find out.

SPEAKER_04 4:56

The anticipation is almost always, almost always it was for me personally, and I hear it every day. Like the anticipation is almost always worse than the actual event.

SPEAKER_05 5:05

Almost always. In fact, it's almost the golden rule, you know. But then because it's anxiety is our doubt response, it's supposed to feel real. You're supposed to feel doubtful, but what if this is the exception? It gets really primitive, doesn't it? It's a very primitive response where it's like you have to kind of half believe it so you keep it in mind, you start behaving just in case something bad's gonna happen. So understand that that response is there and it's doing a job, but it's us up to us to believe in ourselves and be brave to um you know, to lean into that, to roll the pentamillion gone and to do those things.

SPEAKER_04 5:47

That's an old reference we haven't heard in a while. I I think one thing that's important to recognize when it comes to like, well, you're gonna have to take a chance. Like, how can I learn to believe in myself again? Because I don't believe it. I believe when anxiety says don't do it, it's gonna be horrible, I can't do it. I believe that. How can I change that? Well, you have to challenge that. And and you know, this is why we call it do it anyway. But it's so important to recognize that it has nothing to do with like, oh, anticipatory anxiety or the anticipation said it was gonna be really hard and really challenging, and I was gonna maybe panic and feel so upset and and incapable and like I want to run out of there. Maybe you might feel that way. So it this isn't about believing that it's gonna be awesome. Maybe it is, maybe you're not anxious at all. Who knows how it's gonna go? But it's really about recognizing that, like, yeah, I'm gonna do something scary, which means I will probably be scared, and I'm scared about it now, but I can do that. I I I'm be I can tolerate that, I can handle that, I can get through that.

SPEAKER_05 6:41

It's always the worst is what when people like, I don't know, they book a holiday or they commit to a social event or whatever, and they're not feeling great, maybe their OCD is firing off, maybe the panic's there. But as soon as they commit to it, the anticipatory anxiety starts to rage. Oh boy. But if you look back at all the times you've done that, and then you go to the event, it is never as bad. Yeah, you know, yeah, unless the event is going watching Newcastle United play away from home, therefore it's worse. But actually, it's no, you're right to be anticipatory anxious. In fact, it was even worse. You should have ruminated more to protect you from what you're about to experience.

SPEAKER_04 7:28

It was worse than it said. It was far worse, it was way worse. It's not even a question. Oh my god. Uh, you know what? I think one of the things is the belief is because the the fiction or the conspiracy theory of anxiety will, or Craig the Critic, will say, yeah, it's going to be really intense. And and it might be. We have to acknowledge, like, yeah, it might be. But the anxiety, the anticipation, or the the no, you can't do this, you don't how crazy would you you don't believe you can do this, you can't handle this. It's because that intensity then is projected to last forever. Like if you're going to an event or, oh no, I I said I would go watch this movie with my sister because we haven't gone to the movies in a long time, but I know it's going to trigger my OCD. Like, that's one of those trigger themes for me. I'm going to have two hours of absolute level 11 terror. But you might have some terror, but it it right. But the story that you have to like, oh no, that's not true, will be it will just be constant. It's never that way. You'll have up and ups and downs because that's the way this goes. That's really important. Yeah. You don't have to try to believe that it won't be intense. You just have to recognize that it won't be intense forever without any break. That's not the way that works.

SPEAKER_05 8:34

Yeah. Uh, and you have to experience that the feelings are transient. You have to be there. Your brain needs to experience it.

SPEAKER_06 8:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 8:41

You need to remember that as well. Yeah, I remember working with someone a long time ago, uh, you know, just an example that popped in my head, and they had POCD and they're afraid to go to a family reunion, uh, whatever, a family meeting, and they had the same. Like the the committing to go was the worst part. They went, they felt uncomfortable, they did all these things, they lent into uncertainty, they used it as an exposure, and then 30, 40 minutes later, they'll they're they're engaged. They're like, oh, actually, this is not as bad. And how often does that happen? How often does it happen when something isn't as bad as the anticipation tells you? Even if you're white knuckling and compulsing and safety behavioring and inward inwards compulsing and all this stuff, yeah, and maybe it's an exposure not done ideally. Even that can sometimes be not not as bad as what the anticipation would be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:38

Those are really important things. I and I think one of the things that is so interesting about how do I believe in myself again, if we look at Kai's story, because he was the opener. Thank you again, Kai. He only got to that at the end of the story. He didn't start this, did it anyway, with, hey, I'm calling in to let you all know you need to believe in yourself, or like I need to believe in myself. First, he had to have a scary experience, then he reached the conclusion, wow, we could do much more than we think, or at least I can, and I think other people can too. He was trying to be encouraging. But I'm guessing that that belief only came after he did the scary thing and discovered that he could do it. So yeah, when Craig the critic is running all over you and saying you can, and anxiety says you can't, and that no, you can't be too much. You gotta roll the dice, the Penta Million God. Only the experience will change your belief over time. That's it. You can't just decide to believe in yourself, it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_05 10:32

Uh, what you can do though is work on that compassion and encouragement to get you to do the scary thing.

SPEAKER_04 10:37

You're right. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_05 10:38

So there are things you can do that because a lot of people might feel a bit like disheartened by that. You know, well, actually, I don't have any motivation to go and do the scary thing. I I'm gonna avoid forever, or I'm okay with my compulsions and I have this theme, and this is the best I can I can do with it. But no, what you can do is that okay, I've decided to do a scary thing, and that that's okay. So I'm gonna be extra kind and encouraging. And also and I say this to everyone like listening now. I always love this fact, it just baffles me. Like you've never not coped, and all anxiety's got is well, what if you don't cope this time? That's it, you know, you know, and it gives you a souffle of adrenaline with a side order of cortisol, just to give it that extra, you know, extra emphasis, you know. No, no, I've brought my friends here, you know, you can't do this, and that's it. And that happens to everyone. It's not you're not special, you know, you can do it, you know. And when you do, you've got to be like Kai and be like, give yourself a pat on the back. And you could tell how powerful that was because you wanted to share it with everyone else.

SPEAKER_04 11:50

Yeah, that tells you something about the experience. Let's listen to another one because we have three today and they're all the same theme. So here we go.

SPEAKER_05 11:56

Yeah, I've not heard any of these as well. Thank you, Drew, for for doing the admin while I was late.

SPEAKER_04 12:00

It's all blind. Listen to listen, I don't know which one this is because I write it down, but here we go.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

Hi, Josh and Drew. My name is Caroline, and you can use my name. I've been dealing with a lot of health anxiety, and this morning I felt a little maybe a little sick. I don't really know what it is yet. Maybe it's just a cold. But I immediately just started to do compulsions and I have OCD. So I started to do these things I usually do when I feel sick. I told my parents, I told my boyfriend, I just kind of started to oh no, what I'm gonna do, and it's weekend now, I can't enjoy anything. And then I was like, okay, these stories you tell yourself right now. My god, girl, maybe you should just try to not act like a sick person who's dying because you're not. And even if you get sick, you're gonna be fine. So I just tried to slowly begin to do what I usually do, eat some breakfast, uh, listen to your podcast because I actually hadn't heard heard the one from yesterday yet. So that's always nice. And then I thought I really need to reframe the way I view myself when I'm sick, because I always tend to look at myself being super weak and can't enjoy anything. But this time I'm just gonna try to enjoy things anyway. So thank you for everything should uh everything you guys do. You just helped me having a different view on this whole thing anxiety and OCD thing. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 13:23

Bye. Bye. Love the sign-off. Well done, Carolyn. That was really great. Hope you're feeling better by now, by the way.

SPEAKER_05 13:32

I love that one. You know, you know, I love an OCD did it anyway. And that was what what a good reframe. That is the perfect example of how you do it. Challenging core in CBT, we'd call that challenging core beliefs. That's right. My core belief is that when I have an intrusive thought about my health, or I'm not 100%, that means I am weak and capable and ill. And I love when Caroline was like, hold on, just because I'm I'm way more capable here of doing this, and I gotta stop acting like a sick person. And that, you know, is just absolutely spot on. Well done, that's uh put a big smile on my face. Yep, she even said almost as much as Kai doing surgery on himself with a cigar, like an old bottle of brandy to like to just sterilize the knife.

SPEAKER_04 14:21

That's all he's got.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

Kurt Russell's in there for some reason, just makes the story.

SPEAKER_04 14:27

Kurt Russell. Didn't see that coming. Caroline was able to recognize the the story or the story I'm telling myself. Girl, what are you doing? Like, what a good moment of like, wait a minute, what am I doing here? I'm I'm telling my mind is telling me this story about how fragile and incapable I am of this. What if I what if I challenge it? But again, it was experience. She had to slowly like, let me eat something, let me try this. It wasn't just like, girl, dust yourself off and believe something different, and everything was awesome. She had to do things. So that is the biggest part of the whole how can I believe in myself? You got to do the things that you think you can't do. That's what teaches us. That was it.

SPEAKER_05 15:07

It perfectly encapsulates the attitude shift as well.

SPEAKER_04 15:11

Episode 10.

SPEAKER_05 15:12

Uh, yeah. We we always we talk about this attitude shift. It's very hard to put or explain in an Instagram reel. You know, you can't do it's an attitude shift, is something that's like, ah, let's let's take a compassionate reframe and and use this as an opportunity to grow. So I can't change my feelings immediately, I can use it as an opportunity to grow, and that is what you get it, and that's where you've got. I mean, I I loved how Carolyn sounded joyous at the end, like, right, cracking on with my day now. Bye. And did Carolyn get rid of the anxiety? No. Well, we don't know. She didn't tell us, she doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_04 15:57

And that is brilliant. You know, that's a really good point. She did not end with like, and I wasn't anxious anymore. Maybe she was, we don't know. But it wasn't him that wasn't the important part of the story to her, and that was the shift. Wait, that that's not the important part. The important part is I ate my lunch and did my best with the weekend anyway, even though I wasn't feeling so good. Love it.

SPEAKER_05 16:14

Maybe her appendix was started to hurt, and there was no hospital or surgeon within a 50 mile radius. All she had was a bottle of brandy. And no, I've got to stop.

SPEAKER_04 16:27

Well, yeah, I'll tell you why. If it's okay, we'll give everybody your number. And when they need their appendix out, Josh clearly thinks you removed yours, so they can just call you and you can talk them through it.

SPEAKER_05 16:39

I'm so weird. I'm really sorry.

SPEAKER_04 16:41

I don't even know why you guys tune in. I know you why, because because we're we're ridiculous and it's fun. But uh it's really good. Like again, I didn't believe in myself. No belief there. Craig the critic, my anxiety. Nope, nope, nope. I get she even described it like when I'm getting when I'm sick, I feel so weak and fragile. And then I treat myself that way, which therefore confirms yep, weak and fragile was the prediction that your anxious brain threw out there. And you're like, okay, cool. I guess I guess we'll act weak and fragile. And then the prediction looks right, but you it's but it never was.

SPEAKER_05 17:15

It's almost like she believed in herself.

SPEAKER_04 17:17

That that's crazy talk right there.

SPEAKER_05 17:20

Yeah, no. What are you doing believing in yourself for? God, you know, wait for someone, some healer online to tell you what to do. That that's the way to do it.

SPEAKER_04 17:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 17:30

Sorry, Drew. I saw your rant the other day on Instagram. I wanted to just I wanted to wind you up again.

SPEAKER_04 17:35

I had to throw that out there. It was like a Saturday morning or something. I'm like, I don't know. I'm not gonna put no, you know what? I need to put a barb out there and then go away for the weekend. So I these are always weird topics for me because it feels so woo. Well, believe in yourself. Just believe in yourself. Like, and you know, there is something nice about that. That's a nice thing. Like, hey, I'm learning to believe in myself again. That's a great thing. But learning to believe in yourself again is hard freaking work. It is not glamorous, it's not like well lit, there's no aesthetic to it. It's sometimes a slogging through, you know, a weekend where you're just blowing your nose constantly and your throat hurts and you feel sick and all you want to do is sleep, and you think that means you're made of glass, but nope, minute by minute, minute by minute, I'm gonna challenge that and like do things that I think I'm not supposed to do. And like one day I look back and I think, oh yeah, I kind of got my confidence back. I don't know when that happened, but it started to come back. At some point it came back, and I don't know when that happened.

SPEAKER_05 18:27

So it's a great topic, but I think I think you've summarized that perfectly.

SPEAKER_04 18:32

Uh yeah, all right. I guess we're done. There we go.

SPEAKER_05 18:35

19 minutes in the I knew it uh every five episodes he says something good. Yeah, I save it up.

SPEAKER_04 18:41

I save it up. I don't want to spoil people, you know. So uh yeah, that's the whole belief, you know. I mean, we we are only 20 minutes into the episode, but uh what what was a big thing that you couldn't what did you lose belief in? When you were struggling, what what disappeared for you?

SPEAKER_05 18:59

Uh oh, good question. Um so it's it's a battle between self-belief, compassion, self-belief and compassion, they're a tag team, right? And in this cage match, you're against uh fear and doubt. So self-belief and compassion versus fear and doubt. Tag team ladder match in the cage, WWE, and it's a tussle. So for me, when I became re-sensitized after declaring I'm anxiety free, I've conquered it. Yeah, uh, and then I did a load of drugs at a festival and resensitized myself for a very long time. What I noticed on the resensitization was the the tag team of fear and doubt were winning. They kept doing, they kept they were running the show. I was fighting, I was doing all these things, I was doing all that, and and I realized that I f lost belief in my ability to be compassionate and believe, and I noticed that. And when I and that's why I'm so glad I got resensitized. You learn more as well about yourself and your condition when you're resensitized. Um also couldn't I was confronted with Craig the Critic. What was the difference? The difference as well from the second time around is yeah, it's difficult to believe in myself because Craig the Critic has more ammunition. So, oh you thought you had this worked out, but you didn't. I've got you now, come back in, find out more, research more. You you missed something here, and then obviously I've got OCD as well. So it was just loving it, absolutely loving it, and then stuff like that. And I and yeah, I think looking back, I lost it, eroded that belief. And OCD can do that, doubt. Yeah, fear and doubt will erode your your belief, and it because it is your doubt response, it literally has to make you doubt. There is nothing wrong with that part of your brain, it's doing its job, but sometimes it gets confused, we get super stressed, and then if we've got a raging internal critic, it becomes the voice of reason. Have you ever had that at a work meeting? And there's some absolute doorknob in there, just um and they're being dead loud, and they're you know, coming out with truisms or whatever, like it's gospel. Uh, and just because they're loud and confident doesn't mean that what they're saying has any credence. It's just a it's they're just confident in saying it, and that's what your inner critic will do. It will it's saying it loud and confidently, like a LinkedIn post, but it's actually just talking nonsense. Listen to the other voice. You're okay, you can do this, you've never not coped. You know, take a leap, be like Kai, be like Carolyn, do these things, and and other hundreds have done it, anyways, have idea, uh, and you can learn that. Again.

SPEAKER_04 22:00

Yeah. Like it talking nonsense, like a LinkedIn post. So like anxiety speaks only in single line paragraphs with spaces between them.

SPEAKER_05 22:12

All written by AI. Right. All LinkedIn that is now is conversations between people's different AI engines. This is a human connection. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 22:23

Sure. So yeah, the belief you lost your belief in compassion, like being kind to yourself or patient with yourself. Like, oh, nope. That's because you you're right. I like how you said it was kind of weasel in, like, you thought you had this figured out, right? No, you didn't. I told you you didn't. I knew you were going to crash and burn. And it's like, yeah, you're right. You're right. I blew it. I so like that. There's a that's a big component of self-belief or self-confidence or whatever you want to call it that starts to erode.

SPEAKER_05 22:47

So yeah, and so so so anyway, they kind of they won the tag team match.

SPEAKER_04 22:52

Fear, fear and doubt.

SPEAKER_05 22:54

Yeah, yeah, they climbed the ladder, they got the belt, unified WWE tag team champions.

SPEAKER_04 22:59

Four go in, only two can come out. And unfortunately, who came out? Amygdala. And it's Craig the critic. They were talking crap the whole time, like in the promos, WWE promos.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Josh Fletcher, if you're listening, know this, brother. Know this. This Saturday night. This Saturday night in the cage, brother. You're going down.

SPEAKER_04 23:21

So that is literally what it will do. That is 100% what anxiety is going to do to you. It is going to trash talk you and like try to browbeat you before you even show up. Like, don't even bother showing up. Just cancel. Like, don't even bother. Avoid everything because you do not got this.

SPEAKER_05 23:38

Like, or you maybe you can show up, but then you won't be yourself and people notice and it's going to make you feel worse. No, just turn up. Practice not being 100%. That's what you'll learn from an anxiety disorder.

SPEAKER_04 23:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:52

That's how you can believe in yourself as well. Oh wow. And then not be a hundred percent places. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 23:57

A more crazy talk, right? And then if you do, like it's going to tell you to not even bother showing up metaphorically or or fit literally, physically. And then if you do challenge that and you show up and you start to feel bad, then it's going to like see, see, you shouldn't have believed in yourself. This was a huge mistake. And that's another moment where you gotta you know kind of rise up a bit and like, no, no, no, you're not taking this away from me. I'm going to experiment with this. Uh, so which is really, really important. It's kind of tough.

SPEAKER_05 24:22

Would you like would you like a written did it anyway?

SPEAKER_04 24:24

Oh, hell yeah, I would. Try to stop me.

SPEAKER_05 24:27

Okay, here we go. Um, does this person say I can use the name? Uh he doesn't, but I'm gonna read it anyway. Here we go. Um, hey guys, after years of incorrectly trying to fix my anxiety, I am so grateful that I have found you guys. Cheers. We're grateful too. I suffer from panic attacks and agrophobia. Though I don't care much about labels, they have been helpful in finding the correct information. My I did it anyway. Recently, I had to attend the funeral of a relatively distant family member. As far as I'm concerned, funerals and weddings are just about the worst possible events for someone with panic disorder and agrophobia. Once the doors close to the church, you have to stay seated until the ceremony is over. And unlike a plane, you can't just get up and go to the bathroom. If you get a panic attack and feel the need to leave, you'll draw attention to yourself and possibly ruin one of the most important days in other people's lives. Either way, on my way to the funeral, I already started sweating heavily and I could feel my body ramping up, but I ended up going anyway. I chose to sit at the back of the church, and eventually my body calmed down as I was focusing on the people grieving and not on myself or on trying to control my anxiety. Thanks for the pod.

SPEAKER_04 25:52

Oh, really good.

SPEAKER_05 25:55

I mean, going to a funeral isn't good, but like no, but it's part of life, and anxiety disorders will permeate all parts of life. And and I guess what it sounds like he's gonna learn from experience. I think he probably surprised himself.

SPEAKER_04 26:10

Imagine that. And like, yeah, going to a funeral was no fun, of course. But like in that moment, we always talk about values here, right? Like, one of the ways you learn to believe in yourself is through experiences. What experiences? Experiences that match what you value. So I instead of trying to just stay focused and control how I felt inside, I tried to like connect with the people around me who were grieving. This is a shared experience. We all lost somebody, we're here to support each other. That's a values-based decision as opposed to a fear-based decision, and that leads you toward that self-belief and return in your belief in your capability or confidence down the road. So subtle, but it really matters. It's important. Well done.

SPEAKER_05 26:49

Really, really well done. Really well done. Yeah, yeah. Do we have any more people who have uh took the chance to believe we do?

SPEAKER_04 26:56

We have one, and since this episode is out on October 31st, otherwise known as Halloween, this one is particularly appropriate. So here we go.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Hi Josh and Drew, my name is Sky, and you can use my name. I have had anxiety and panic since I was a child, and your podcast has been absolutely life-changing. I just wanted to share a quick digit anyway. It's October, so my husband and I decided to go to a hobby house. I struggle particularly with OCD health anxiety and especially cardiophobia. I love Halloween, so I decided to push myself and go. We did the first area and the adrenaline was pumping, my heart was racing, and it was definitely spooky. My lizard brain tried to tell me that my heart couldn't handle it, but we just immediately got in mind for the next attraction, and soon enough I was distracted and even laughed a bit at seeing other people be scared too. I did the whole thing and I noticed that yes, my heart rate did go up, but it also came back down, and that it really wasn't disordered at all. I think it was a really successful exposure, and I can't thank you enough for the work that you do. You have truly helped me and so many others so much. So thank you.

SPEAKER_05 28:08

Love it. Super, and and and on theme. Well done. Uh what I liked about that was that I checked my heart rate, I got anxious. It wasn't disordered. I think there's a moment there it was like, no, I'm so I'm in a haunted house. I'm supposed to be scared.

SPEAKER_04 28:27

They are legitimately making money on elevated heart rates. That's what that's there for.

SPEAKER_05 28:33

What if I'm anxious? What if I get anxious? Oh, oh no, I'm purposely going to make myself anxious.

SPEAKER_04 28:38

That's exactly right. There's an entire industry built on that. People that want to be anxious and apprehensive and have their heart pounding and sweating, like because we like it. That wasn't disordered at all.

SPEAKER_05 28:49

What would be in the disordered haunted house?

SPEAKER_04 28:52

Oh, I love these. This time of year, this is one benefit of social media. You do start to get the it's a haunted house except it's just memes. Like it's a haunted house except it's just a wellness influence.

SPEAKER_05 29:03

You walk through the so it's for me and you. So we're sat on in the ghost train going through the haunted house. You know, because this one's one of them that you sit in. Yeah. Uh we go around the corner through the dark, and then uh for me personally, um, I would see Mel Robins. That would freak me the hell out. What would what would be your in your scary? Oh, then spiders. I don't like spiders.

SPEAKER_04 29:27

Yeah, but that's not disordered, is it? I mean, I just don't like spiders.

SPEAKER_05 29:31

No, in in the dis in my fears. I don't like spiders. And I don't like Mel Robins. Okay, it's not disordered, I suppose. Okay, Mel Robbins isn't that, and then something else.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

Fair enough. I I don't know how in how they could put in a haunted house some portrayal of a premature ventricular contraction, but that's that would be it for me. Like some dude with like an irregular heartbeat just jumps out and says, like, whoo, I feel like I need to cough. And then I'm like, ah, and I just want to run out screaming. So like it's a haunted house, but it's just nothing but like medical anomalies that you're afraid you have. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 30:01

And then suddenly a hooded man just leans forward and goes, Benzo, just in case.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

Yeah, we could probably build a great, like, disordered anxiety haunted house. Are you sure you checked that?

SPEAKER_05 30:14

Damn it. Yeah, yeah. Just to just a guy like, do you sure you turned the oven off before you came to this haunted house? I'm just like, oh no, man, this is too much.

SPEAKER_04 30:21

We would make a mint too, because the the like the actors don't even need makeup or anything. They just need to lean in and suggest things. That's it. They don't even need to carry masks or anything. Like, I don't know, your husband kind of looked at that woman for that was a long day. Did you notice how we did that? Like, bam, relationship OCD. We are unlocked. So yeah. And anxiety sort of isn't like that's exactly what it is. It's like a haunted house of suggestions. That's all it is. Just suggestions of things that might be bad.

SPEAKER_05 30:47

What if this isn't DPDR? What if DPDR is the reality and you've actually been dissociated the entire time?

SPEAKER_04 30:54

It's a haunted house, except it's just people suggesting that we live in a simulation. It's a haunted house, except people just suggesting that you'll never the panic attack will never end. Like we could go on, we could do this for hours. Like the Halloween.

SPEAKER_05 31:06

Yeah, yeah, let's not do that. Let's not do that. Well, maybe we'll do a bonus episode one day.

SPEAKER_04 31:10

Totally. Next Halloween. Tune in a year from now. We'll just do an hour on that stuff. But I think it really does, it's it's kind of accurate though. That's exactly what this is that takes away the belief because there are suggestions like let me just suggest things that could be wrong, that would go wrong, that might go wrong. Let me suggest ways that you might fail or crumble or or be incapable, and then you believe those instead of believing in your own capability. So that's yeah, that's what this is about, right?

SPEAKER_05 31:38

Yeah, the final jump scare would be all the OCD online coaches, just a room full of them going, pay me lots of money, join my WhatsApp group, you know, I'll fix your OCD. That would be the final one.

SPEAKER_03 31:51

And then I'm just there going, make it stop.

SPEAKER_04 31:56

That's it. Abandon all hope, ye who do not vibrate at a high enough frequency. That would be like that's the quote going into our haunted house.

SPEAKER_05 32:04

Would you like sorry? I can't stop it. Would you like an ice pack?

SPEAKER_04 32:06

No, no, yeah, right. They're just shoving coping like lavender oil at you. Terrifying. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 32:15

Anyway, so sorry about that, guys. We've got carried away. Um, and we are being kind, yeah. So you've got to believe in yourself. And I I I we don't we get some lovely emails and messages from people, um, and we try to be modest and stuff, but I thought I was gonna read this one out because it's really nice and it made me smile. Um I don't think they didn't so I can use the name, just a short one. Um, I just wanted to thank you so much for all you do. The person I was getting anxiety info from before before you guys says things like, Decide not to be afraid of your symptoms. Your symptoms will go away once you stop thinking about them. Go through your day with a sense of lightness and ease. Avoid situations where you feel trapped, and other many unhelpful things that sent my OCD brain in spirals. I'm still struggling, but since I found you guys and know that it's okay, that it feels hard, and that willful tolerance and allowing thoughts, emotions, and symptoms to be there, even when you're afraid, is the way out. I know I can do this. Thanks again.

SPEAKER_04 33:16

Oh, I love it. That is self-belief coming back. I know I can do this. I love that. Me too. You know what's a that's a good illustration of how traditional wellness advice that is not anxiety disorder informed will help take away your self-belief. Because you have a helper here literally saying avoid avoid any trap situations. No, it's true, you can't handle that. You might be too anxious. You'd be too anxious there. Don't do that, don't go there.

SPEAKER_05 33:41

Oh, he's bringing back Craig McGrath.

SPEAKER_04 33:43

Like, that's terrible advice from a helper, right? Like, yeah, let me tell you how, like, just don't think about that. Don't have that. Don't think about something else. Think about happy things. Go to your happy place.

SPEAKER_05 33:52

Oh, no. Well, no, let him let him all in and feel whatever you need to feel.

SPEAKER_04 33:56

Yeah, because then that would lead you to believe, like, it's if you guys follow along in my sub stack, like I'm writing about that this week, so it all dovetails together. Like the first level of belief that you lose is your belief that your body and mind are on your side. You'll start to feel like they're betraying you because they're making thoughts and sensations that you don't want and feel like you can't control. And then the second level of belief that you lose is I can't handle this. I don't believe I can handle it. And anybody that wants to tell you that you have to get away from the thoughts or get away from the sensations or regulate it away and need to like change your life around this, is helping you not believe in yourself. It's it's not cool. It's not cool, man.

SPEAKER_05 34:30

It's true that though the belief is so important. Like if you found a magic technique that got rid of your anxiety, you never learned that you were the person that tolerated it. Yeah, you it does not foster self-belief, it fosters credit on everything that's external from you, and that's why belief is really important.

SPEAKER_04 34:50

You know, early on in this podcast, we had, you know, we I think whenever how we got better, we did in one of the first five or ten episodes. There was a moment, I think we were talking about techniquesifying, and I was like, I owe you for a therapy session, dude, because why did it keep coming back for so many years? That's why. Because I just found a technique that made it stop when I read Claire Weeks, but I did not understand what I was really doing. And so, like, I'll credit went to Claire Weeks.

SPEAKER_05 35:17

Amazing as a woman she is. That's not what she was saying.

SPEAKER_04 35:19

The credit went to like the technique of acceptance, and I didn't understand what I was the part that I actually had to do, and so it just kept coming back until it was like, Well, I guess it's not supposed to make it go away. So, yeah, yeah, that that can happen. You're right. Good point.

SPEAKER_05 35:33

Yeah, that's what happened. Yeah, I fell into those traps. Techniqueifying. We can do another episode on techniqueifying if you want.

SPEAKER_04 35:39

Oh boy, there's so much to subtle techniquesifying too when you don't even know you're doing it. You look back and knew you're doing it, but yeah, maybe next week we'll do that. But anyway, I think we're good. Yes? Anything else?

SPEAKER_05 35:50

No, that's that was uh very good. Thank you for sending in the did it anyways. That's some great to see the OCD ones as well. Thanks for listening out for that. So if you've been brave enough to send in an OCD did it anyway, that was great. But they're all welcome, you know, and it's uh it's really nice. Um, thank you so much for the reviews and stuff. If you want to send in a voice note or drop us a message, you can do it at disordered.fm. And uh thank you for the nice reviews and things. And if you've got a moment, give us a review on Apple or Spotify if you want to, it doesn't matter. Um and uh yeah, thank you for tuning in as always. Yeah, we'll see you guys next week. Thanks for hanging out.