Anxiety Questions From The Listeners (Episode 037)

SPEAKER_04 0:01

And when my workload starts to drop again, I feel like all that energy slash anxiety has nowhere to go. And I get tricked into doing compulsions again.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

What advice do you have for irritability as a result of anxiety?

SPEAKER_05 0:16

My concern that I would like an answer to. I'm 69. Is there hope for me?

SPEAKER_04 0:21

I'm going through a lot of experiences that cause me anxiety. Practically every aspect of life is new and different and causes anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Could you talk more about health anxiety and manifesting symptoms?

SPEAKER_01 0:34

I feel like the algorithm is just creeping out behind you. Feels very personal, very health anxiety related.

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Is it normal to feel so fatigued and unmotivated every day?

SPEAKER_04 0:45

My question is about the amygdala. What triggers or alerts it?

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 37. And in this episode, we're going to hear from you guys listener questions, listener QA, listener questions answered. I am Drew Linsolata. I am a grad student in clinical mental health counseling on the way to being a licensed therapist in the state of New York in the US of A. I am a former sufferer of anxiety disorders and depression for many, many years, an author in a podcast on this subject. And with me as always is my esteemed co-host. Take it away, esteemed co-host.

SPEAKER_04 1:19

And hi everyone. I'm a psychotherapist based in Manchester in the UK, previous sufferer of anxiety disorders. And it's a joy to be the co-host of this podcast.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Yeah, glad to have you, dude. Always a pleasure. Um today we're going to hear from, listen, if you're listening to episode 37 of Disorder, stick with us. This is the most complicated stitch together episode we've got because we're going to answer a ton of questions from you guys, including things that you emailed in and did voice messages. So we're going to try and navigate as best we can. Should we start with a Did It Anyway? Always nice to start on a positive note, right? Sounds good. Absolutely. Let's hear from let's hear from our first Did It Anyway. Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

I'm a lawyer who has suffered with generalized anxiety disorder as well as health anxiety for what's coming up to two years now. You guys have been instrumental in my ability to accept and appreciate what is actually going on in my head. Well, today I was at my desk, felt a twinge, the panic set in. I felt that I was about to spiral. I stopped myself, I reminded myself of all the principles, and I went through with the meeting anyway, which was a success. And I would just like to say thank a thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

I love it. Excellent. Excellent. Case close. Case close from our lawyer. So good. I don't have that.

SPEAKER_04 3:06

No, for copyright reasons either. Um, well done. That's that's outstanding. Um Well done for applying the principles. Well done for being brave and courageous. Oh, definitely the brave part.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

When it's peaking there and she just sort of let it go, it's really good.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

Well done. Excellent. We've got some questions that we've received through the disordered.fm website. Um, we've also got some audio questions as well. If you ever have a question or would like to uh record a diditany, just go on disorder.fm. We'd love to hear them, we'd love to read them. Uh if you want to help us out a bit, you can start the the the message or email with either the word question or did it anyway. And it just helps us to filter through. But you don't need to make our lives easier if you don't want to. But um, but yeah, that's just there. Uh okay. Let's are you ready, Drew? Yeah, you got you have an email question to start with? Yes, I do. I have a question from Paula who has given us permission to use her name. Um, hi Drew and Josh. Feel free to use my name. I love the podcast and how you guys speak about anxiety recovery. It's been really helpful on my OCD recovery. I have a question. I work a job that can be very stressful, but in a cyclical way. I think it's similar to Drew's previous job based on what he shared. Anyway, every time my job gets stressful, my anxiety increases. Then when my workload starts to drop again, I feel like all that energy slash anxiety has nowhere to go. And I get tricked into doing compulsions again. Any advice on how I could manage to respond in a more helpful way? Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 4:48

That's a great question. Thank you, Paula.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

Yeah, great question. I can I jump in and answer this straight away. Yeah, I love this question, it's gonna be helpful for other people. So thank you, Paul, for submitting that in. For this type of anxiety, no matter how your anxiety presents, I always use always use the analogy of the gear analogy. So let's say you've got a five-gear car, maybe a five-gear bike, you know, uh, where fifth gear is when you are in uh top energy mode where you need to be on it all the time. First gear is when you're relaxing, eating ice cream in front of the TV. And for some jobs, you know, you need to be in fifth gear, you need to be switched on. Maybe some life events you need to be switched on. It's fine, it doesn't matter what gear you're in. However, for people that've been anxious in the past, maybe you suffer with panic attacks, OCD, maybe GADs flared up, you're in fifth gear. And so what can happen is that the brain associates that fifth gear with being anxious in the past, due to um old neuropathway associations and just old habits. So if you've been working really hard all day and you come home and you're still in fifth gear and you're struggling to shift down the gears, don't be surprised if an old habit, you know, that old neuropathway that's been over used over and over again, and in this case, Paula, your compulsions, that suddenly becomes a go-to. That's how I'd start the answer to this question.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

That's a great start. I could barely add anything to that. Um, I think what I might add to that is the recognition that you're supposed to be kind of amped up if it's your busy time of year, right? So we always care about the difference between like externally generated anxiety and internally generated anxiety. So it's like, well, I'm under a lot of stress this time of year. This is the busy time. I know this is coming. I expect it. Everyone in my workplace is under load right now. We're all feeling kind of amped up, keyed up, or in distress, not distressed, but stressed out in some way. So always be careful to take a step back real quick and say, like, oh, wait a minute. When my brain wants to say, uh-oh, anxious equals problem that we need to fix with our compulsions. Well, wait a minute, anxious doesn't always equal that. Sometimes I'm just feeling regular person anxiety. And then it dovetails into Josh Yart's answer, which is, yeah, but then my brain interprets it as we better go back to those old, use those old pathways to deal with this, which isn't necessarily true. So there's a little bit of a framing statement that leads into what Josh was talking about.

SPEAKER_04 7:14

Yeah. And be kind to yourself. Like understand, take a metacognitive step back and go, ah, yeah. Back when I was in the midst of my OCD, I was in fifth gear, my stress drug was overflowing. So this is going to be expected now. But I need to be kind and be like, no, I don't need to do this now. Just because I'm being pulled into compulsions again, I've learned. I've you've learned from this, Paul. You've learned, ah, yes, I've noticed that when I'm stressed, I'm more susceptible to compulsions. But now I need to go, right, okay, this is my next step, it's my next challenge. I need to lean into that. I need to kind of sit with it. Remember the response prevention part of exposure response prevention, ERP. That's just your next step. And that's what I advise you to do next.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Yeah, for sure. That like reverting to compulsions, you know, when stress is an almost universal thing in the OCD community. And that's, I think, why sometimes people will say, well, OCD isn't always cured, it's managed, you know, it goes into remission. Yeah, when you're under stress in life, it might come back a little bit, but now you know what it is. Listen to the reversion and setback episode we did. I don't know what episode number that is, but we talked about that going back to old habits and how to catch that. Great question, though.

SPEAKER_04 8:24

Yeah, great question. We hope that helps. We hope that helps.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Yeah, thank you, Paula. So we'll move on to the next question. Um, I this person did not give us the okay to use their name. So uh let's get into it. Hi guys, thank you so much for all you do with the podcast. It's been a huge comfort to me. I can relate to so much of what you discussed. You're very welcome. I do have a question for you. What advice do you have for irritability as a result of anxiety? I find this to be one of the hardest symptoms to accept as it can impact my relationships with the people around me. And I don't generally consider myself an angry person. I just feel like when I'm in a highly anxious state, I'm significantly more irritable than normal and can snap a lot easier. Thank you for answering. It's a good question. I think it's a common presentation.

SPEAKER_04 9:04

I think it's okay. I mean, if you think about what anxiety is, it's fight, flight, freeze, and form. And for sometimes when we get irritable and anxious uh irritable and angry when we're anxious, that's the fight part. I'm irritated. I'm I'm I'm my I'm tense, my muscles are tense. The the the fight or flight has engaged me into this, you know, I want to push everyone away or attack people. When I say attack, you know, like I'm not don't mean like getting a pan and chasing a family around the living room. I mean, you know, like I'm I'm easily there ready for it for the attack. And so you might be attack people verbally or maybe push them away, you know, um, which okay, don't condone, but again, you've got to be compassionate and be like, okay, this is the fight, fight part of my fight or flight. If I I gotta work hard here, but if I engage in that irritation behavior, if I raise my voice and things like that, I'm kind of thanking it. So do the tricky thing and try to challenge these things. If you need some time out, take some time out. If you need to go and take a breather, that's okay. Um with anger and irritability, it's definitely okay to take some time out. You know, um often we talk about panic attacks and not running away and stuff like that. But this is different, you know. It's okay to take five, ten minutes out if you need to just calm down, relax, yeah, um, be mindful, meditate. I think that's great because it can be very tricky and also it can affect people around you.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Yeah, and I I think there's always that um that's where like the selfish nature of the disordered state comes in. Not that the person is selfish, but sometimes the anxiety certainly is, and it does not want to be dismissed, it does not want to be ignored, it wants to be the most important thing in the room. So I know for me, one of the things that I found personally in my experience was when I wanted how I felt to be the most important thing and to dictate everything around me, and the rest of the world didn't want to cooperate with that, I would get irritable. So sometimes that's uh born out of frustration. I don't want to restrict my life, but I feel like I have to, and no one around me will restrict it with me. They're dismissing me. They're not making it as important as I need it to be. I want this is important, listen to me. I don't mean that you're throwing a tantrum like a toddler would, but you know, the understanding of sometimes where that anger comes from, if that is your case, which it is for many people, it's for me, and it's something I hear all the time, that's where that self-compassion really comes into play. Oh, I understand my survival instinct really is trying to help me here. It wants all the attention, and I'm getting a little angry because people are not accommodating me. And I feel like they might be abandoning me or supporting me or leaving me in a dangerous position and it's making me angry. And that's where they're like, let me take a minute here, back away for a second, and see how I can work through this. That's really common, I think, to get frustrated if if you're not being accommodated.

SPEAKER_04 11:51

Being frustrated, um, also going back to stress, we're answering Paula's question. Like, stress can make us feel irritated, anxiety disorders and sure are stressful, and and irritability is a very common symptom. Just remember though that you are kind of, you know, you're responsible for your behaviors and things. Try not to I'm not saying you would do this, you know, but you know, try not to use anxiety as you know to to to justify you know lashing out stuff. And but if you are, you know, if you do take the wrong tone with someone and stuff, just apologize and things like that. I've had to do that many a time. I'd be like, oh, sorry, sorry guys, I'm just feeling a bit irritable today. Um try not to for me, when it if it's just to do with the anxiety, try not to kind of work out why and ruminate to be like, okay, I'm irritable, I just need to be kind to myself now. Yeah. Um and yeah, you know, you've got this, it's very common, you know, it's all part of it. Put it under the umbrella of the same thing. Um, if there are other external stresses for your irritability, maybe do reflect on that because life has its own stresses too.

SPEAKER_02 12:55

Absolutely, and I think take some credit for being aware. The fact that this person is aware of that and is asking about it is a really big step. A lot of people early on in the recovery process, they're not even aware of that, and they would defend that anger. Like it's my it's my anxiety. This person has evolved a little bit and gumpy asked. It's like, well, I don't like this. So yeah, absolutely. And credit, credit to you for that. 100%. What's your next question, Josh? You have another email question.

SPEAKER_04 13:21

Yes, I have an email from Christine. Uh hi guys, you can use my name, Christine, and thank you so much for your work and your podcast. Here's my question: I'm going through a lot of experiences that cause me anxiety. We've just moved to a new country, so practically every aspect of life is new and different and causes anxiety. It doesn't always feel like I'm choosing to have experiences that cause me anxiety. It feels like I don't have a choice. I have to do the things. Most of them cause me anxiety, and that's just how it is for now. I'm really sure if this is will if this is I'm really sure if this is willful tolerance, since I don't feel like I have a choice. The question then is whether or not it's actually helping my recovery. I'd like to think that it is, but I have my doubts. Do you have any suggestions as to how to shift my attitude so that all these experiences could be more beneficial for my recovery? Thanks again, guys.

SPEAKER_02 14:21

Good question. Want me to jump in on that one? Yeah. I think the first thing that I would say is make sure that you recognize that moving, moving is widely regarded as one of those top five most stressful life events that we have in the West. Moving, uh, divorce or separation, death of a loved one, like these are huge life events, and you're going to be stressed by that. And then when you're stressed, you may fall into those anxiety habits that you're working on. So just recognize it, like, well, I'm supposed to feel this way. Most people would feel this way right now. But I think in terms of the, you know, how can I shift my attitude? I'm a big believer in you can't just decide to have a new attitude. The only thing that you can really do is say, okay, I recognize what's going on here. I understand that I don't have a choice. And I can't decide to just change the way I feel magically with words. How can I react and, you know, and relate to this state in a new way that helps me understand experientially, behaviorally, that, oh, okay, I I can change my attitude. I can learn to have a new attitude toward this. I think people get it backwards sometimes. Tell me what to think so that I can have a better attitude. And I don't know, I'm not sure that that's very fair or kind to yourself. It's like, well, I don't, I don't like this. It's okay to acknowledge that. I am afraid. I am triggered. It's okay. You could say that. Those are facts. Now, what can I do with this? Even though I don't have, I have a bad attitude now. Maybe I have a bad attitude. Okay, I could say that. But what can I do to help myself learn to have a different attitude? How can I react to this and interact with it in a different way? What are your thoughts on that one?

SPEAKER_04 15:59

Yeah, I completely agree. Uh, I'd also challenge a statement in the question from Christine. Kind, kindly challenge. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not um uh the lawyer from before. I don't think we're gonna be cross-examining you. Um you said I'm really sure that if this is willful tolerance, no, I'm really sure that this is willful tolerance since I don't feel like I have a choice. Well, no, that's not. That sounds sounds to me that you are tolerating it all, but the key word here is willfully. I don't I don't get that there's any willful um throughout your description. It sounds like you know, you uh did a brave decision to to move country and move places and change your life, which as Drew says is very stressful. Um, but willful tolerance is different from tolerance, you know. Um and it's so like willful is okay, I'm gonna practice willfully being anxious today. Uh and it's and what I'm hearing is that it sounds like there's a frustration. Um willful tolerance is a choice. And you said you stated that it feels like I don't have a choice because I have to do these things, but you can, you can choose to willfully do it. There's a difference. That's your power, it's in your power to willfully do it. You know you're not it's not willful when you're going through stuff and you're constantly checking your anxiety and you're getting annoyed at it and you're monitoring it and you're ruminating and you're resisting and fighting it all day and just hoping that it disappears. Um that's one of the biggest misconceptions of willful tolerance. If I put myself in a situation, then it then anxiety will disappear. Um, not necessarily, because if you go listen to our episode on white knuckling, um did we do one on white knuckling? We did, I believe we did. Yeah, um, if you'd listen to our episode on white knuckling, that's the difference between the willful tolerance of of anxiety and tolerating it. But I won't forget, don't forget that tolerating it is fantastic and you've done really well. You've done half the the battle. Well done, and you've moved country. That's incredible. Yeah, but just remember there's just that that willful is a very subtle and incredibly powerful part. It's the difference between oh, how good uh can I get at tolerating anxiety today rather than I'm sick of anxiety, I'm sick of putting myself in situations where I'm feeling it and I just want it to go away.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

Yeah, and I think the idea, you're right, you don't have a choice, which is okay, life is gonna do that to you sometimes. Maybe think about what would be the difference if I did choose this? If I say, well, today I will willfully tolerate, then I have a plan that says I'm gonna go trigger myself. And when triggered, I will do this, which is different than what I used to do. And so you didn't choose to do it, but but have that conversation with yourself. What would I do if this was an exposure that I planned on doing? Well, I would expect to be triggered, and when I was triggered, I would loosen myself, I would allow it, I would not fight it, I would drop my resistance. Do the same thing, even though I don't have a choice now. I didn't choose to do this, but try and do the same thing as if you had planned to do that. What would that look like and approximate that little by little? Absolutely spot on. Yeah, that's that is exactly what I'd say too. Yeah, for sure. Um, all right, let's pop down. What do we have now? We have another question here about um, this came in from and I'm not gonna use a person's name, but uh oh, I we have two questions. I left left one out. That's okay. We're doing good on time. So um, could you talk more about health anxiety and manifesting symptoms? For example, fearing a specific disease or symptom than worrying that worrying about it will cause it to happen. I think this one had to be addressed for sure because I guarantee there's a ton of people listening right now that are that have this exact fear.

SPEAKER_04 19:53

Manifesting.

SPEAKER_02 19:54

Manifesting. Go on through.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

Go on, through you you love talking about manifesting.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

You've heard me rant enough about this. I I would, I'm a huge fan.

SPEAKER_04 20:03

Of manifesting.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

Oh, wow, this is turned a corner. Wow, like exactly. I've decided to change my view. No, I have not decided to change my view. If if the idea of manifesting as a way to move closer to the things you value in life rings for you, it resonates for you, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't have a absolute rule against manifesting. But when in a disordered state, where you would actually ask two guys on a podcast, can I actually create a disease or symptoms by thinking about them and making them come true? Then you may have to back away from the idea of manifestation for a while. You can always go back to it if it helps you in the rest of your life. But right now, when anxiety is sort of running amok and dragging you around a little bit, manifesting is a word that I think that anxious people need to strike from the vocabulary for a little while. Like so let's talk about my personal view on manifesting is an anxious brain will lose all of the nuance and subtlety in the manifesting argument. People who have really, in my view, really constructive ways to describe manifesting and how it can be helpful and how it helps us inform our actions and get what we want. There's a lot of subtlety and nuance in that. The simple thing is when you see articles on crazy websites that say thoughts are vibration and energy, and that's what quantum science says that this will make. No, that's not a that's not subtle, that's not nuanced, that's just flat out wrong. It's a third grade interpretation of quantum mechanics. Now I'm on a mini-range, you can drop that on the floor. You can. It's okay to drop that. And then maybe later come back to the more nuanced and subtle version of manifesting, which might be helpful or or or ring true for some people.

SPEAKER_04 21:45

Yeah, absolutely. I think uh there's a difference between the literal interpretation of manifesting, or if you're using if you're someone who reads about manifestation in terms of uh life goals, um career goals, manifesting a kind of Um kind of a personal vision for your life. Yeah, and I've heard great stories about that. But people in a disordered state, like Drew said, they think it's like a magical genie that appears.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:13

If I keep thinking of that I'm gonna get a brain tumor, then I'm going to manifest a brain tumor. Uh no. Uh, you know, if I think keep thinking my heart is going to explode, I'm gonna manifest that. No. Yeah, but anxiety makes your heart race. Yeah, it does. But that's a very healthy internal experience. Uh no, you're in short, no, you're not you're not going to do that. Um, here's where the uh the the anxious brain will uh kind of try and trick you, though, because you have something called self-perpetuating anxiety symptoms. So if you worry that you might get a headache, oh yeah, you're probably gonna get a headache. You know, if you worry that you might, you know, not your digestive cycle might not be great. And we recently had Dr. Seuler on. Yeah, well, worrying about that, probably you're gonna have some toileting issues. If you worry about heart palpitations, you're probably gonna get heart palpitations. But that is different from what what Drew said is that manifesting a disease, right? You know, you know, that that doesn't quite work quite work.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

There are people in our community that I I know right now won't say the word cancer. They can't say it because they feel like if they say it, they're increasing the likelihood that they will actually somehow create it in their body. And that's where things go really off the rails. But an anxious brain will find any possible threat and latch on to that. But remember when you saw that reel from that person on Instagram that talked about vibrations and and creating reality with your thoughts, but but what about that? No, no, no. Just because it's on Instagram doesn't mean it's real. Throw that away. You can throw that away, it's okay, you know.

SPEAKER_04 23:55

Uh absolutely, yeah. Uh yeah, so I mean, the short answer is no. Oh no, wait, no, no, no. There is an exception. Like if I sit down and really concentrate and think about intensely about manifesting a bird of prey. And suddenly there was one. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm gonna I'm gonna do that about Kate Beckinsale shortly. There we go.

SPEAKER_02 24:25

Are you gonna be trying to manifest Kate Beckinsale? She's she just appears, just like, why am I here? Like, why am I in Manchester? Literally in the middle of a bite of like a bologna sandwich. Never know anybody like brushing her around like, what's going on here? Can I call the authorities? Um, and by the way, for those of you who are listening who missed it when there's no eagle sound in the podcast, we we see you. Thank you. We appreciate you. So um can I do a question five? Because I almost left this one out, and then we'll go to an audio question. Um, please, can you do an episode on how it feels and what to expect going through recovery? My main query, I love that it's a query and not a question, is is it normal to feel so fatigued and unmotivated every day to find little joy because you're so exhausted? Do you have up days and down days? What's the answer to that?

SPEAKER_04 25:17

Absolutely. I mean, all feelings are transient, but if you're going for anxiety and stress and a bit of depression, yeah, you can have up and down days. Um it's okay. What do you think, Drew?

SPEAKER_02 25:29

Oh, 100%. I mean, I I when I wrote The Anxious Truth, I did a whole lesson in whatever chapter it was about expecting to have them. Not only, not only can you have them, like I would literally expect to have them. If you don't, bonus. But if you're hoping that you only ever feel neutral or happy, you'll be really disappointed because nobody lives that way, anxious or otherwise. So yeah, you're gonna have to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

Yeah, but you're at risk of ruminating about the why.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Correct. Because I'm alive and my mood will change, that's why. Next, yeah, that's a tough one, but yeah, of course you're gonna have those ups and downs. And it's hiring, by the way. Fatigue, yeah. This is it's exhausting, this stuff for sure.

SPEAKER_04 26:09

Yeah, and and it might lead to you know the irritability question before, like, so okay, but don't imagine, and oh, this is something I put in my very first book. It was uh try not to imagine yourself in the future with how you feel now. I think that's so important. I don't think I've ever mentioned that on this podcast. It's like when you try to imagine yourself doing something fun, so maybe you've got a family day out booked or a first date, or maybe you just go into the park to chase squirrels. In that current state, you will see that through the lens of how you currently feel, and you're gonna be like, Oh, I don't really want to do that, I'll avoid it. But try not to imagine how you'll feel in this current state because all feelings are transient. When you actually go there, you'll find nine times out of ten, it's completely different. Yeah, that's and how many did it anyways do we have where we're like, oh, I don't want to do it, but it turned out great, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Or it wasn't as bad as I thought, or I managed to handle it. So that's a great, great point, man. Really good. Do not bring, do not project your current feeling or state of feeling into an hour from now or or 10 days from now.

SPEAKER_04 27:22

Yeah, I was saying before, like I I I I read I've clicked through my first book again because I got I received an absolutely savage review. He's just Claire, we're ripping off Claire. I'm not ripping off anyway. Uh, and I was like, and I thought, is it that bad? And I was like, and I was like, oh, there's a bit I forgot. In fact, yeah, I love it. I'm gonna talk about that more. Try not to imagine yourself in the situation with how you currently feel. It's a bit like you've got a hangover. Don't imagine how you'll feel on the big dip of roller coaster, because you're gonna be like, oh, that really does not appeal to me right now.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:56

Uh, but actually, a week later, when you're on the roller coaster, you're like, oh, yeah, this is great.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Yeah. Even in terms of just like the transient state of emotions, which is true, even your recovery progress, people will say, like, I cannot imagine that I will be able to do things that I can't do today. Yes, because you're still in a air quotes toxic relationship with your anxiety. But as you change that relationship and untoxify it and it becomes normal again, you won't feel the way you feel today about it. So you won't interpret events the way you do today. So people even looking at recovery, it's like, I cannot even imagine. How are you? What do you mean you're in New York City? How could you possibly? I cannot imagine even doing that. Yeah, but that's just you're you're taking current you and trying to project it out a year. Like you won't be current you. Change all the time. So great question. Should we go to an audio question real quick? Sure. Let's do it. Um, let's see if I have this queued up correctly. There's a nice short one, and it's a good one. So let's hear it.

SPEAKER_05 28:52

Hi, I've been listening to some of your uh podcasts and um one of disordered your introduction. I'm very scared. I have terrible anxiety and depression. My concern that I would like an answer to is I'm 69. Is there hope for me? That's my question. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_04 29:19

I love that question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Is there hope for someone who's anxious and depressed at 69 years old? Yeah, there is 100% hope. Why wouldn't there be? Like your brain is always capable of learning new things.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

One of my first ever clients many years ago was a man who was 78 and he struggled with agrophobia. And for many years of his of his life, I want to say client, it was a coaching client who I've used this anecdote in talks, so I have his permission before anyone's like, how dare you! And um yeah, he was very um happy to for me to use it. Um he yeah, he spent many, many decades feeling anxious and and hopeless. Uh, he did some brave stuff and managed to kind of overcome agrophobia. Um, the reason why I always uh use him as an example when I was coaching him many years ago, uh was I thought and had this kind of cynical Craig the Critic part of my brain, like, oh, I wonder if he's gonna you know be angry at himself for for not being able to access all of this at one point. And actually, no, he was just he's like a new lease of life, he just had a really lovely uh access to his life again, where everything just felt new and adventurous and wonderful. Uh, and yeah, he's probably struggling for 50, 50 years, and yeah, he he could do it. Um, anyone can do it, it's fine. You're a human, you have a human brain, you have a human body, and you have inner courage and you have the want, you know. The fact that you even submitted that shows that there's a want. Yep. Uh, and yeah, keep stoking that fire. Of course you can.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think I have members of my social media community that are in that age range and they're making progress all the time. It's always lovely to see, you know. One of the things I would add uh as a bit of advice would be the fact that you're answering the question with Josh it is really good because it gives you an awareness of, well, am I live, you know, this this fear that I have or this concern that it's too late for me or I've suffered for too long, this habit is too deep. Which is true, that maybe it's been a very long time. You don't want to invalidate your experience, but also start to challenge the idea that, like, it's too long, the habit, I can't break a habit. I bet you break habits every day and form new ones every day. Just that this habit seems so important in your life that it seems like, oh, I won't be able to break this one. But you form new habits and learn new things and stop doing old things all day long at a small scale. That's scalable. That can get bigger. So it's the limit, it's this becomes a self-limiting belief. I can't believe I'm actually saying that in this podcast, but self-limiting belief can be a thing here. No, I'm too old. I won't even try. Don't fall into that trap. You know, you can try, you can do this.

SPEAKER_04 32:16

Yeah, and a little bit at a time.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

It counts.

SPEAKER_04 32:19

It counts. I mean a little bit at a time.

SPEAKER_02 32:21

I find it interesting, and you know, I know you guys don't see video on these because we never publish a video, but if you've never seen me, there's more gray than brown in my beard now. I'm getting into that sort of Gandaf stage a little bit, but which means that my audience tends to skew a little bit older. So I get to see I get the privilege of seeing a lot of older people that do this work and actually get better.

SPEAKER_04 32:40

And Drew, Drew's doing it, and he's only one year younger than you.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

So I'm not that old, but I mean 69 is not old these days. I mean, come on. No life, yeah, there's stuff ahead of you.

SPEAKER_04 32:53

So absolutely. There's um Crystal Palace manager is 76. Roy Hodgson, what a legend. Um he stands on the touchline uh it in minus two in South London, shouting orders. Yeah, he's loving it. I have a question. Yep. Um, I don't think they've said I can't use the name, but I'll read it out. Hi, firstly, thank you. I've been suffering from health anxiety for two years now, and through your podcasts, I'm learning how to navigate through to a more comfortable place where I feel I am able to take control, even if it's sometimes uncomfortable. Well done. My question is about the amygdala. Amydala. What triggers or alerts it? Is it thoughts, feelings, or actions? I know it often misinterprets things, but what if a thought? But what if a thought pops into my head? Could this make it jump it into action? Can you explain a bit more about it? Okay. So what triggers it? Thoughts, feelings, or actions? All of the above. Yes, all of the above. All of the above. It's a trigger. Well, you gotta remember is that the amygdala is like a sensory input. If it can be triggered by uh a what-if thought, uh, a vision thought, it could be triggered by uh like a like mind reels, maybe it's a memory, it could be triggered by a bad dream, um, it could be triggered by someone's tone, it could be triggered by a loud bang. You know, it's the amygdala when you have one of those drifting off dreams, and you and you, you know, you you dream that you fall over a curb and then suddenly wake up, you're like, ah, you know, I was so close to falling asleep, now I'm wide awake. That triggers the amygdala. If you've been through previous trauma, maybe it's certain smells, maybe it's uh how someone looks, uh, maybe it could just be the image of a car because you maybe you've been in a car accident. Maybe it's even just thinking about doing something. Um, and actions-wise, yeah, and sometimes if we um particularly if we have behavioral behavioral compulsions, that can trigger the amygdala because it sees that we're doing a safety behavior and from the past and it wants to jump in and help us. Um, you've got to remember with the amygdala that it's only wired one way to the thinking brain. So it's just willing, as a just in-case mentality and a just-in-case mindset, that just you know, I'm probably wrong, but what if that 0.01% chance this thing could could kill us or it could lead us somewhere that's horrible? What if that fires off? What if that could happen? I'm just gonna let you know and then it's and I'm gonna fire off a warning signal. Now, this is why things like mantras and trying to talk to it doesn't work because there's only a one-way wiring, one-way street. So it's sending signals to the cognitive brain, but the cognitive brain, you're trying to send a signal back and you know you can't mail it to that address, it's not listening.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Yeah, it doesn't have a phone, you can't call it. You can only show it because what Josh says is right, it's a it's an experience processing machine, it's a sensory input processing machine. And that input could come from outside, things you see and experience, but it can also come from inside. So can thoughts trigger it? Hell yeah, they can. Because if you have a thought and that thought creates a bodily response, which thoughts will do, bad memories, thoughts, scary thoughts, disturbing thoughts, all of those things, things you're afraid of, then that sensory input gets run through the internal sensation, the internal experience is run through that processing machine. Uh-oh, uh-oh, my heart's a little racing, my stomach is a little queasy, uh-oh, I feel a little upset. Danger, danger, danger. So yeah, like it can be on the lookout for anything that it thinks is a problem.

SPEAKER_04 36:43

And a note, on the note, on the principles of ERP therapy, exposure response prevention. What that is, is that we purposely trigger ourselves. So that's the willful part. I'm gonna purposely trigger myself and prevent my response to it. Because when you start doing that, you're showing the the amygdala, hey, this isn't dangerous anymore. Yeah, that's why when you do something scary for the first time, it's less scary the more you more you do it because of your response prevention. And this could just be on a conventional scale. Like, remember your first day at work? Really scary. Now, now you're falling asleep at your desk because you're tired and relaxed and bored. You know, uh, it's the same with many things, you know, getting doing it getting into a car for the first time, going to new places. Your amygdala is learning, and when it realizes, hey, this isn't dangerous anymore, I'm gonna stop triggering the threat response. Uh, for people with OCD and intrusive thoughts, kind of the the principle applies the same, although you know, it can feel a bit more acute.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

I love it. All of the above. Um, we got some time. Should we do a few more?

SPEAKER_04 37:52

Uh yeah, I've done my questions. I've got a did it anyway that I can read afterwards if you want.

SPEAKER_02 37:57

But so let's do let's do we have I have an email question left that I think is a good one. They're both good. Let's do an audio question first because it's a quick one. Then we'll do the quick email one and then we'll do our did it anyways. How's that? We got time. All right, let's hear this one.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

I've been wondering about an extended version of the social media doom, social media rabbit hole, when you feel like the algorithm is just creeping out behind you. Suggestion videos and content that is just very feels very personal, feels very health anxiety related, and with topics like you should stop eating this because this is toxic, cause this is unhealthy, cause this might cause you to have this disease, or this means basically heart failure, or that everything is a trigger, that everything is to harm you, that everything is dangerous, and you just feel locked up and very uncomfortable and scared to live.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

So I think the question is, you know, what do you do about that? The algorithm feels personal, it's targeting me with scary things. Is it uh yeah. That's what it's a hundred percent personal. It is designed, they spend a lot of money to make it personal.

SPEAKER_04 39:16

If you've got health anxiety, you know, you're gonna watch that probably in a disordered state, aren't you? You're gonna meet you're more your threat response is more drawn to what could potentially be danger. So when you've got some, I mean, there's a lot of idiots on social media, us included, but at least we kind of know our stuff on our topic. Yeah, yeah, and it's based on evidence-based practices like CBT and psychoeducation and stuff like that. But yeah, when you see when you've got health anxiety, and then there's people on social media. I mean, I saw one the other day, uh, vegetables are toxic. And I'm just like, for the love of I think it was that one of my favorite pages on on Instagram is Lane Norton, the uh American weightlifter. Yeah, he's so fun. Yeah, and he calls out all this nonsense. So if you uh, you know, you're gonna be you've got to be careful what you select and who you follow and things like that. Um and if you're on kind of social media in the midst of an anxiety peak, turn off the suggested reels and get off the for you pages and all that just for a bit, because you don't want to keep stoking that fire um until you kind of you know, until you get to a better place. But yeah, I know Lane Norris always stands there just ranting in front of people, uh people with millions of followers, and he's like, There is no empirical evidence to suggest this. This is just scaring people, uh, whether it's that, whether it's kind of things like um sweeteners in drinks and stuff like that. Yeah, what people will do is that they'll highlight the toxic thing in the food, but they don't tell you actually how much of it is in that.

unknown 40:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 40:58

And they don't tell you that it's there's already more of that in our bodies anyway, right? That we naturally produce. No, no, it's very much there's a toxic thing in this, avoid this. And the poor anxious folk are there like drinking water and eating lettuce until they're told that lettuce is now toxic. Um, because yeah, and it can it's a real it's real fuel for compulsions.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Yeah, I would I would liberally use the not interested function on Instagram. Not interested, not interested, and it will learn. Don't show me that because that's not helpful to me at all. On the flip side, when you are triggered, that's an opportunity to practice. I've seen something that's triggering my threat response that's health-based, and now I'm really uncomfortable. What can I do with this discomfort? Does that mean I shouldn't scroll more and try to prove it wrong or find alternative sources? Not necessarily in that situation. Let me ride through it and then unfollow that account or turn off suggested reels, right? Oh, see, Copper agrees. 100%. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 41:49

And if copper agrees, it's right. Uh and uh the same applies to anxiety content as well, you know, and and things like, oh, you must do this to purposely regulate your nervous system because stress is bad. I mean, again, no direct empirical evidence to suggest that. Um you know, like kind of or as of the time of this podcast. Um, but you know, it's like that's just gonna pull you into a ruminative hole where you're constantly trying to force things and you're gonna compulse and you're gonna apply perfectionism, etc. Yeah. Um, yeah, just do that. There is a there is an option if you're on social media stuff. There's an option to just say, do not show me suggested stuff. If you're on TikTok and things, I mean that is a mindfield of stuff. Don't get me wrong, I like scrolling now and then, yeah, um, probably five minutes a day, where I'm like, oh, that's funny, whatever, that's cool. It's quite mindless for me. But for some people, it's not mindless, it's really intense.

SPEAKER_02 42:46

And I think don't forget also when the the the algorithm feels personal, it's so personal that the apps will know when you slowed down just a little. They don't even they're not even hiding that. So if your brain is tuned into these health anxiety things and they feel important to you, it's like a train wreck. I don't want to look, but I can't stop looking. And it will know you didn't say no to this reel. You slowed down a half a second on this reel. I'm gonna show you more of that reel. And that's built into it. So you gotta notice that. Yes, they're gonna notice, and your brain is gonna tell you to pay attention to those things, and it will for a few extra seconds, and then they will capitalize on that. You must like this. So dystopian, isn't it? It is incredibly disturbing when you get down to it. Uh yeah. Um, okay. So what do you think you are? Did it anyways? We're at about 43 minutes.

SPEAKER_04 43:33

Yeah, I've got one here. Uh, this is what I did it anyway from Linda from Northern California. Um it's okay to use my info. Hello, Josh and Drew. Just had to share my hell yeah, I did it anyway. I haven't driven on the freeway in over a year. E.g., to avoid at all costs today before going to the grocery store, I jumped on the freeway and went one exit. I'm gonna do it again tomorrow. And the next day, and the next day. I was so proud of myself, and the grocery was a piece of cake, which is not always the case. When I got home, I walked up the hill at the end of my street. I haven't been up there in a really long time. Part way I felt a little twinge, a whoosh, but used that opportunity to show my amygdala that I was okay. I'm really proud of myself. This is a huge win. Thank you both for doing this podcast. It is so relevant to what I've been dealing with for years, decades, even. But it's never too late, and I'm so very grateful to you both.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

That's awesome. You know what I like about that? The momentum. I felt really good, and then I went up the hill and I haven't been out for a long time because I felt good.

SPEAKER_04 44:44

That was that was great. I I used this word sparingly, but you know, that's perfect. All the principles, everything there, compassion, willing to be uncomfortable, doing all these things. Uh, and that was sent in not so long ago. So, you know, feel free to update us. It's been like a week and a half, you know. Let's see, let's see where you're at. That's yeah, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

Yeah, I love it. A textbook. I would call it a textbook example of the things we sort of teach. Um, I'll wrap it up with one that is a did it anyway that's related to toilet anxiety. And that's a one I know that people will often say, Yeah, but this is a special. We just did the episode with Dr. Sewell, so go check that one out about IBS and anxiety. Um, hi guys, I'll paraphrase a little because a little long. I'm new to your podcast. The last two weeks I've been listening to an episode a night before bed. Well, that'll put you right to sleep for sure. Um, I've been an anxiety sufferer for the last seven years, and I struggle massively with toilet anxiety, mainly the fear that I won't make it to a toilet when needed. Uh, because of the nature of my anxiety traveling and being away from the house, uh, he engages in a lot of safety behaviors, uh, going to the toilet many times before I leave, all that sort of stuff. Well, let's see. Uh this morning I went for a walk as the sun was shining, and part way into the walk, I was starting to feel the physical sensations of needing the toilet. With the title of the episode Running Around in my brain, I decided to just do it anyway and carried on walking. I put my mind to better use, focusing on things I could see around me. I managed to walk for another 25 minutes, even extending the walk by walking past my house and on for a further period of time, which I am proud of. I feel as if I'm starting to faintly see the light at the end of my anxiety title after many years of struggling. Uh, having these mantras such as what would non-anxious you do is really helpful in the moment. Thank you for all your work. Love that one because it shows that, like, even that is not a special toilet anxiety is not rules, don't apply here. That's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 46:39

I've been there, uh sitting in restaurants. I'd I'd I'd look up the floor plan of a restaurant to make sure, and I'd sit on the end just in case, because when I was anxious, it felt horrible and things like that. Uh until I flipped on its head, and non-anxious me would be like, just sit wherever, you know, it doesn't really matter, you know. Um, but yeah, that's a common one that we hear a lot. Your dinner anyway is fantastic and well done.

SPEAKER_02 47:05

And thanks for sharing. People needed to hear it. I think we did good today. You guys sent in great questions, great comments. Keep them coming at disordered.fm, voicemail, email, whatever you want to send us, topic suggestions. We listen to all of them, we read all of them, even though sometimes we can't answer them all or put them on the air, but we love them all. So thanks. Absolutely. You have a lovely week ahead. Yeah, we'll see you in the next week. Hey, it's Drew. Thanks for joining us for this episode of Disordered. Josh and I both hope that you're finding it helpful in some way. For more information about Josh or me or the Disordered Podcast, find us on the web at disordered.fm. That's disordered.fm. Hop on over and find links to our social media platforms, join our mailing list so we can let you know when new podcast episodes are available, and we'll send you easy ways to ask us questions and share your wins so we can answer questions on the air and share your successes with the community. And if you're listening to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or any platform that lets you rate a review, do us a favor and leave us a five-star rating and maybe write a review if you're digging disordered. It really helps us out and we appreciate that. Thanks again for coming by, and we'll see you in the next episode.