Anxiety Disorders: Shock, Attention, and Resistance (Episode 78)

SPEAKER_03 0:01

And tension and resistance is really what starts and drives a disordered state of anxiety.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

I think the formula is shock attention resistant. I don't like that symptom. I don't like that thought. I don't like this feeling. And it always comes with shock.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

There's a shock that starts this process, the first panic attack, the first time you have ooh, OCD thought. But then the shocks become variable, and the attention and resistance make the future shocks. I don't like to feel shocked. Yes. And so the fact that I'm looking for a shock, boom, makes another shock. It's like a variable schedule, like a slot machine.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

To get out of any anxiety disorder, it's what we do after the shock. Oh, I'm anxious. Okay, well, I don't need to call upon my biceps named attention and resistance and start fighting them.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

We're trying to resist things that we do not control.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Welcome to Disordered. This is episode 78, entitled Attention and Resistance. My name's Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist who specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm based in Manchester in the UK, and I prance around on social media under the title at Anxiety Josh. I love doing this podcast with my co-host where we talk about all things anxiety to help you, to educate you, and get you to a good place.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

And over to my co-host. Good morning. I'm Drew Linsolata. I am also known on social media as the Anxious Truth or the dot anxious dot truth. I am a therapist practicing under supervision in New York, specializing also in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders. I had these problems for many years of my life: anxiety disorders and depression and that sort of stuff, OCD, but better now. And I'm also an author three times, social media dude. I don't prance as much as Josh, but I'm out there prancing a little bit. And uh yeah, one of the co-hosts of Disordered. Happy to be here. What are we talking about today?

SPEAKER_02 1:56

Attention and resistance. It was something that um you suggested, Drew. I think it's a really good topic.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

I did. I suggested it and then asked you what we were talking about. How ridiculous is that? Top flight prep that we got going on at Disordered. I actually got the the idea from a I sort of did it anyway, that one of our listeners, not readers, one of our listeners sent in, and I think it's a really good topic. So I even wrote a little intro to it. Like attention and resistance is really what starts and drives a disordered state of anxiety. We it it wants to be anxiety the way we feel wants to be the most important thing in the room. So we give it all of our attention all the time. That's the attention. And then resistance drives the disordered state when, like, it's here. We are anxious. I am having symptoms, I am having scary thoughts, I'm having a big emotions, and I'm going to fight against that with all my might to try to get rid of it. But it's already here. And since I can't just banish it, I wind up frustrated and confused and angry and lost and feeling powerless and like there's no way to recover from this, and I'm screwed. Attention and resistance and scene.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

I I I enjoyed that and the exit stage left. Yes. I would I think what would help to conceptualize this for people, I think yes, attention resistance. I agree. I think the formula is is shock attention resistance.

SPEAKER_03 3:16

Oh, that's really good. So it does a first thing in there.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

There's a shock, isn't there? It's either I don't like that symptom, I don't like that thought, I don't like this feeling. And it always comes with shock. So an intrusive thought might be shocking, a sensation might be shocking, maybe you feel dizzy or derealized, or maybe there's a a niggle or there's a shock, isn't there? Yeah. Health anxiety, oh, I've got a headache, what's that? What if you've got a brain tumor? Shock, um, anything. I feel claustrophobic. Um, maybe my loved one is leaving the house for an hour and I don't like to be on my own. You know, maybe I've been asked to go somewhere I've never been before and I'm agrophobic. There's a shock. Then because we don't like the shock, yeah, and our association and habit and default mode network associated with the shock, we give it attention and we try to resist it. Yeah. Uh S-A-R.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

That's really good. Uh we could probably draw a whole diagram on this. Luckily, we don't, well, this is not visual, but maybe we have to make it visual. So, like the shock, there's a shock that starts this process, the first panic attack, the first time you have OCD thought. And then it might come and come and it starts the fire. Boom. So that the cycle is repeating. But then the shocks become variable, and the attention and resistance make the future shocks because now I'm looking for it. I'm looking, I'm always looking for it. Even if there's no shock, I'm still at an agitated, elevated state because of attention. Don't like to feel shocked. Yes. And so I'm waiting. And so the fact that I'm looking for a shock, boom, makes another shock at a variable. It's like a variable schedule, like a slot machine.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

Shock, attention, resistance. Remember this? Um the I think the aim of this podcast, whether we've ex stated it or not, is negating the shock, expecting the shock, yeah, not fearing the shock, the initial trigger, and then the compulsions are attention and resistance, which is pretty much unites most people with an anxiety problem. If you take social anxiety, the shock is, oh, I've got to deliver a presentation or speak to someone new. Well, that's the shock. Then the attention and resistance is well, I don't want to feel that scared. And so I'm gonna give this problem attention. I'm gonna ruminate on it. I'm going to catastrophize and play out these things. You end up in the little cycle to get to get out of any anxiety disorder, it's what we do after the shock and not fearing the shock, right? Oh, I'm anxious. Okay, well, I don't need to call upon my biceps named attention and resistance and start fighting them. You know, it's it's um this is a visual podcast. I actually lifted up each arm then.

SPEAKER_03 5:57

I think it was spectacular too, just that way. Thank you. The gun show was worth it right there. So I think, yeah, and so the trick becomes like, well, then how do I get out of this? Well, we take away the resistance, you know, which is when you hear Josh say the words willful tolerance, or you hear me say surrender, or you hear Claire Weeks talk about floating and accepting, it's the dropping the resistance. So if you don't know how to accept anxiety, it's I'm gonna stop fighting it. Because in the end, it's it's here, it's here now. It is like just the sun is in the sky, it's here. I can hate the sun, but no amount of resisting it and stomping my feet and throwing a tantrum about the sun will make it go away. So I have to do the best I can with the sun in the sky, and that's a tough one.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Have you noticed as well? One of the a big question we get asked um is I I've done all the things you're saying, and I've dropped the resistance, and I'm doing these things, or I'm and I'm trying to allow the anxiety to be there, I'm trying to tolerate it. You you've done well, you've probably, you know, attempting to drop the resistance is really good, but then I always go to the attention side. Yeah. So maybe you have done the scary thing, but where's your attention? Oh, it's entirely inwards, the inwards compulsion. Yep. Um, which is again an episode that we talk about as a lot. It's like from if you you've done half the work when from as a fly on the wall from outside, we can see you doing and attempting the hard thing. Well done. But only you know where your attention is. And if your attention is constantly inwards, you may look like you're doing it from the outside. Yep. But remember, do what non-anxious you would do. Non-anxious you probably wouldn't be doing the scary thing, and then constantly scanning or ruminating or checking for the shock. Yep. And that's the difference. And I think you know, we're on to something here.

SPEAKER_03 7:47

I think so too. If there's a Nobel Prize for anxiety disorders, this is the one that's I would nominate you, Drew. Yeah, well, no, we're a team on this one. We'll share it. Knowing that I was gonna win, but I'd nominate you out of to make myself feel better. I think this is great because this is actually one of the most exciting episodes I think we've done in a long time for me, because I'm excited about all of this.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Oh, sell some music from the last one, maybe the music was better on that one.

SPEAKER_03 8:09

I just want to make a point real quick because that thing that you just said, or else I'm gonna forget. There's the behavioral change. I'm dropping my behavioral resistance. There's the cognitive resistance. I literally had this come up yesterday in a session. Like, well, I still go, I go back to my desk and I do my things. I don't go home anymore. Yes, but where is your where are your thoughts? You're still defaulting to why is it why did that happen? Why is is it gonna go away? My recovery isn't so fast. What can I what does this mean? What's gonna happen tomorrow? Like, yeah, but you're still resisting cognitively. So and we can't see that, only you can.

SPEAKER_02 8:41

That's why we call it CBT, you know, your cognitive therapy and behavioral therapy. You've got to do one. The resistance is usually the behavior, and the cognitively is yeah, you can still resist from that, but yeah, it's like you gotta get them both right.

SPEAKER_03 8:56

Please monster trucks. All right, it's a did it anyway. We like to go to did it anyway, so we'll do that one right now because it's pretty damn good. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Hey Drew and Josh, this is Giovanni from Las Vegas. I uh got pretty inspired by you guys on an episode a while back of a doing it anyway. I'm at a monster truck event. Uh have almost been in full panic for about an hour. We're at the halfway point, and it's finally slowing down. But I'm here with my little boy, and he's having a blast, and I'm not leaving.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving.

SPEAKER_05 9:37

I'm not leaving!

SPEAKER_01 9:39

So thanks for everything you guys do. Gotta get back to the monster thing.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Yes, Giovanni. Well done.

SPEAKER_03 9:50

That may be the most American did it anyway we've ever had.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

I love it. I bet you and your and your lads had a really good time. Well done for being a super dad as well. Go in whilst being anxious and enjoying it. And my favorite line of that was I gotta get back to the monster trucks.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

I gotta get back to the mic trap at the end. I gotta get back to the monster trucks.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

I also loved how American it was. It was the I I I really want to be at the monster trucks.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Oh, yeah, you ain't lived until you went to one for sure. Like the two giant trucks pulling against each other, who wins? Come on. Or just crushing a line of cars or buses, which is really great. Uh good job, D body. That was attention. So, like in this situation, he he said he's at the monster truck rally and he's had he's been in a state of panic for quite a while. Now it's starting to come down. So he's learning that left alone, that experience will end. But my kid is here and he's having a great time, and that's happening too. So I'm gonna make sure I pay attention to that too, not just how I feel. So there's the attention part in this one. But most of them.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Yeah, really good. Excellent, and well done. Uh, give yourself a pat on the back. Yep, I agree 100%.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Um, we have let's go to another one really because it's a written one, and this is sort of what prompted this. I want to read part of it. This person did not give us opportunity, uh, the uh permission to read to say her name, but uh, I'm gonna sort of paraphrase a little bit and get to the important part. Basically, this person says, I'm a long-term sufferer of episodic health anxiety and currently in a pretty bad episode. The theme of my current episode is skin discoloration, which has led me to completely lose track of what normal skin looks like. What's so insidious about the compulsive body scanning, it completely distorts what is a normal experience in your body. I love the way you explain how your anxiety is your brain constantly scanning to find a reason for its perceived threat, so it latches onto normally bodily functions just because it needs something to explain the sense of danger. And she goes on to say that she recognizes herself in the story about monitoring jaw pain, which is what we talked about last week, and uh how forcing relaxation makes it worse. I clench my fists when I'm anxious and I'm stressed, even in my sleep, which has led to a lot of hand pain. So she tried to force relaxation by doing yoga and hand muscle releasing activities found on YouTube before bed, but lo and behold, the pain just got worse.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

Why shouldn't the resistance?

SPEAKER_03 12:06

So she says I was focusing even more on my hands when she was trying to make them make the pain go away. But after this episode, I decided to just lean into it. So what if my hands hurt in the morning? Big deal. So what if I clench my fists and I started to focus on them less and less? And today, here's the did it did it anyway part. I actually forgot about my hand pain.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

Yeah, right? 100%. That is a tension and resistance at play. That's what prompted this episode right there. So thank you, question or deep.

SPEAKER_02 12:37

Excellent. I found that was well with health anxiety. And bear in mind, like health, it was a theme in my OCD at once upon time where I just constantly thought I was deteriorating, so I kept keep weighing myself and constantly scanning and constantly everything. And yeah, the more resistance I get, the more the symptoms stuck around and things like that. And yeah, what you did was you dropped the attention and resistance by saying, I don't, I don't care if my hand hurts tomorrow.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

My attention about the hand pain, she forgot about it. Yesterday I had a client tell me, Oh, by the way, I wanted to tell you that like I forgot to check my legs for twitching the last couple of days. She was so happy. Excellent. Yeah, that's that's resistance and attention at play resistance.

SPEAKER_02 13:17

I always reframe it compassionately as well. It's like you didn't forget, you just chose to put your attention elsewhere.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

Well, it's funny because she was able to say, like, uh, you know, well, I've worked on that, I've I've chosen to not check for that. I'm like, yeah, and then that just became the new pathway. Like you didn't have to, you learn that I don't have to check so much, not that important.

SPEAKER_02 13:35

So in the context of like panic attacks as well, like I we we often say, like sometimes we may have an anxiety or panic attack or whatever, once in a blue moon. But on both occasions, the last few times I've had a panic attack, I'm not even thinking about the panic attack 20 minutes later. Yeah, in fact, I I it's only when I'm on the podcast or talking about anxiety, it's like, oh yeah, I had one yesterday. Yeah, you know, whereas previous me who was in in the midst of anxiety disorder would be shock, I didn't like being shocked, yep, and therefore I don't want it to happen again. So it's gonna definitely have my attention, and I'm going to try and resist it. So I am gonna cancel my plans, I am gonna get into bed, I am going to um relax and then listen to kind of conventional wellness advice like I'm gonna try and regulate my nervous system and go into compulsive safety behavior territory, whereas actually you can have a panic attack and just carry on with your day. That's possible, yeah, and and your brain is more likely to forget it, and you're teaching the brain it's not a big deal. Yes, in the middle of it, it feels horrible. I didn't didn't like it, yeah, but but SAR afterwards, like nah, yeah. I don't I don't want that shock to be a thing, and actually, my rational brain knows it's not actually shocking, you know. I'm I can it's predictable, yes, it's it's discomfort, it doesn't have to be shocking discomfort, and that's what makes the by the way, regulatory.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

But that's also what makes what people call setback, right? We did an episode on setback and reversion, like the reversion to the old way, which was oh, I've been I haven't had a panic attack in you know eight months, says Josh. And then he has one, and it's like, oh, now I'm in a setback because now I'm going, I have to treat myself as fragile, I have to make sure it doesn't happen again, I have to recover. Like, I'm gonna treat it as a very special thing and give it all of my attention to is it coming back? Is it gonna happen again? Am I did it pass? Like, no, that's not a good plan.

SPEAKER_02 15:50

So I think it's a really good formula for loved ones to remember as well. Yeah. So if you've got a support, if you're lucky to have a supportive network around you, whether it's your partner or your family or your sister, brother, parents, whatever. Yeah, that formula of you know, you you're well educated on anxiety by now. Well, if you listen to the episodes of this um podcast, we hope you are. Um, but yeah, that formula of you know, I I've fallen into the shock attention resistance cycle again. Now don't get me wrong, it it's it can be tricky, it requires compassion. The last thing you need is Craig the critic jumping on you saying, Oh my, you're not doing every you're not doing the correct things, you're not doing recovery. I guess he does do that. It's Craig the critic. He does. Uh it's oh no, I've just fallen back into shock attention resistance again, and I can see it. And if anything, that's quite empowering. It's it's weird because some people misinterpret it, like often it is what we're doing that keeps the anxiety there. It's not in a blaming way. Drew and I have both done it, you know. It's just like for for many years, like shark attention resistance. Yeah, because what else are we supposed to do? No one taught me how, and we're clever, rational human beings that want to uh to feel better, but we need to understand the power of what we're doing that keeps the anxiety there, keeps us in threat mode, and keeps the hamster wheel spinning.

SPEAKER_03 17:19

Yeah, so it's a mistake, it's actually just a mistake. It's not because people do hear that. I've heard people say, like, well, you know, that's self-sabotage, right? Well, no, not really. I mean, maybe, but not really. It's just a mistake. Like it's a it's a common sense mistake. It seems like the right thing to do to respond to the shock by giving it all your attention and resisting the experience. That does seem at first glance like the way you should do that. But until somebody teaches you otherwise, or you begin to unfortunately suffer for a very long time and figure out this ain't working, of course you're gonna do that. That's not accusatory. Everybody goes down that path accidentally.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Yeah, and attention and resistance uh are two things that are helpful with other problem-solving skills. So you probably when when there's a problem in your life, all the way through your life, you give it attention, you give it effort, you know, you know, and and and you fight against it, you know. If someone uh has wronged you at work or whatever, you know, you give the problem attention and then you you resist being pushed over. So you you do this and you do the right things, you know, to stand up for it, to fix the problem for justice, etc. You do the opposite with anxiety. It's like, oh, I've not been wronged. It feels like I'm being wronged, it feels horrible, but I'm not gonna give this my attention and resistance because I don't go anywhere with it.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

And that's because if somebody wrongs you, if you're at work and your co-worker is constantly calling out sick, and then your boss makes you do their job too, three out of five days a week. Yeah, you'd probably that would keep your attention, and you would probably make some sort of move to remedy that the resistance. Okay, fair. Because you can. I can actually do something about that. I can quit, I can get another job, I can request a meeting with my boss's boss. I I can do things with anxiety disorders. We're we're trying to resist things that we do not control. We don't control our thoughts, we don't control our emotions, we don't control our nervous systems, we don't control those things. So we're using attention and resistance as problem-solving tools in places where they have no effect, they don't belong there. That's not that's not where we can use them.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

And the and the irony is with why we're so like anti immediate regulation. Yeah, there's so much stuff about regulating and stuff. Don't get me wrong, you can what we're propagating, is you can you're allowing your body to regulate itself um in the long term, but not as an urgent response to emotions because it has the opposite effect, yeah, and it's tricky as well. And we were saying, like, I kind of lucky when I had my anxiety disorder because the information, albeit sparse, was simple. So finding Claire Weeks, finding the works of Drew, you know, finding um other books that that talk about the experience, you start, it makes it simple. Whereas, you know, again, and we spoke about this in the past, if I go on social media and I got 50 people saying no, you must regulate yourself, you must do that. What you're actually saying to the disordered compulsive fixator person is you know, the more attention you give to this, the quicker you will get better. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 20:33

Right, yeah. I mean, even old school, you know, like the second wave of CBT was guilty of that. Like, let's keep thought records. Well, what were you thinking? What were you thinking when you when you had that panic attack? You know, that's an old technique. Like, we gotta let's check that. What were you thinking? Was that irrational thought? Oh, it was irrational. Well, let's counter that. No, that backfires because that's not the way we do it. It doesn't matter what you were thinking when you had the panic attack, it just matters that you had it. And again, the the resistance, it's the that we can let's control this somehow.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

No, I thought panic attacks over nonsense. Like, like I had a panic attack once where I couldn't feel my chest. It felt like there was a hole in my chest. And if you take a purely like cognitive approach to that, it's like you challenge the thought. Well, you do, whereas the evidence suggests you've got a hole in chest. I was like, I even knew this during the panic attack. But my threat response is just saying, you know, give this attention and resist this feeling.

SPEAKER_04 21:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

And and then I was worrying about why am I worrying about something so stupid? Which then just adds to the panic, you know. So it doesn't, the thoughts don't really matter. I've had panic attack triggers over anything sometimes, like, oh, I can't remember the date. And then this urgency and the threat response kicks in, like, you must remember the date. What's the date? Don't look, check, it's a memory test, and then I'm just like panicking and whirling into a panic. It's like, no, like just now it would be well, of course, I'm not gonna remember the date my threat response. Responses kicked in, my cognitive brain shut down, my memory recalls can be really poor. Um, just go with it.

SPEAKER_03 22:06

Be fine. What date is the least of the concerns of like my limbic system? Doesn't care right now. Yeah. Or people who worry about their core fear or their big fixation or obsession is like that they will lose their sanity. I will, I will have a psychotic break, I will lose touch with reality, I will lose my memory, and they will compulsively loop through the names of their children and their families and birthdays, and like so that they can prove that oh no, I still know that. I still I still know that. I still know that. That's the worst thing you can do.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

I've I've worked with a few people like that. Um and one one of my colleagues who who's a uh OCD therapist, um, her family are Irish. And so you used to go through the names of all our Irish family, and it's a massive Irish family.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

Yeah, but they have cool names too. So you kind of want to hear that as yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

And it's like uh I'm just like the easiest compulsion to do.

SPEAKER_03 22:59

But it's really hard. So we want to we want to give it attention because it feels so important, and then we want to resist the thing that we like. Why are we you can't resist it? It's here now. You know, I always try and say that, like, uh, you know, anxiety or that disturbed state, it's not like a steak at a restaurant. If the steak comes, you order a steak medium and they send it, you know, well done. First of all, they're savages and should be out of business. But second of all, you could say, I don't like this, and you send it back and they make you a new one. Like, but we don't get to do that. Like, no, I resist. I I am not, I've had people say, I refuse to accept this. And my answer is usually like, okay. But go ahead, don't accept it. What what just changed operationally? What is the difference when you choose to resist? Is there any difference? What do you get from that? You get nothing. So you say you're at a steak restaurant. You're at a steak restaurant, yeah. Where is the steak restaurant? Well, it could be maybe it's in Vegas next to the monster truck pole. Oh no, oh no, we almost got the inward compulsion going. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Sorry. Right. I do miss that sound.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

I'll bring it back someday. But it's it's this is such a hard thing. We make it sound like a simple thing. I do like shock attention resistance. Maybe this is maybe the book we gotta write. I don't know. The SAR.

SPEAKER_02 24:13

Shock attention resistance. Yeah, I don't know. Drew and I are talking about we should we write a disordered workbook. I don't know if anyone would would would read it. Um, but yeah, when you've got the mellifluous sounds of our voices, you can tune into. Who needs to read when you can listen to this frivolity every week? Yeah. So let's talk more about shock. Yeah. What do we mean by what do we mean by that? Shock. The initial pang. I I could feel the shock for me. It'd be like a it'd be like ooh. And it and it could be a thought, it could be a feeling. Sometimes it could be absolutely nothing. Lots of therapists, and even the cognitive behavioral therapists, some of them, if they're not up to scratch with the you know, being anxiety disorder informed, it's like, no, the rest, no, there's always a thought that triggers it. There's always a thought that precedes it. Yeah, but sometimes the thought doesn't matter. Yeah, sometimes sometimes I get I get the shock, the adrenal dump that kicks in, and y yes, there could be an obvious trigger, and then sometimes it just happens. Sometimes I can just sat there and it just happens, you know, maybe because I'm stressed. I don't know. It could be anything, yeah, you know. Um, but it's a bit like it doesn't matter what the shock is, and I think there's a lot there's this um what's the word? It's a lot of the therapy um community, and a lot of therapists are kind of hell-bent on finding the root and the trigger and stuff like that. It is an obvious trigger. Oh, yeah, they might particularly if you've got PTSD or phobia. Yes, that's good. But sometimes for some people, and this is for the people that go, I can just be anxious for for no reason. That's okay. The shock is still the shock, it's the beginning of the formula, you know, shock, attention resistance. It doesn't really matter.

SPEAKER_03 26:00

The out-of-the-blue panic attack is a really good example of that. Yeah, nocturnal panic attacks. Yeah, that's another one. People will say, and we we've done talked about this in other episodes, but nocturnal panic, but what about nocturnal panic attacks? Well, what about them? The only difference between a nocturnal panic attack and one during the day is it's dark. But people will be like, No, it's so the reason why people struggle with it is so shocking. I was dead asleep, and boom, now I wake up and I'm gasping for air and my heart is bad.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

It's shocking, like yeah, shock, attention, resistance. And and then you do, you give it, and don't get me wrong, if I have a nocturnal panic attack, you know, for that brief moment, I am in shock and I am giving it attention and resistance.

SPEAKER_03 26:37

Yeah, yeah, and when my brain's woken up, I'm like, oh, it's not the shock is I think like uh the way Claire Weeks wrote about first fear, second fear, you know. So like that initial, like that's the shock. That's what you recognize as oh my god, uh oh, oh my god. I always say, like, you know, recovery is the shortening of the interval between oh my god and oh well. Like it just gets shorter and shorter. So, but omg, oh yeah, I say it all the time. It's a shortening, it's really just a delta T problem is recovery. So recovery is the it's the time between the time, it's the delta T between oh my god, which you and I still have. If I panic, oh my god, and oh well. It's the shortening of the time between those two things. A recovered person spends very little time between omg and oh well, whereas uh an anxious person just stays in omg sometimes for weeks on end, never gets to OL.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

So yeah, oh oh my god, oh well. If you see a post on my Instagram later with my name under it, that exact quote. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03 27:45

You gotta do that Michael Scott thing from the office, like recovery is the difference in OMG OL, you know, dash Josh Fletcher, dash Drew Linzlada, Wayne Gretzky crow, and then he put his name under it. It was no good. Yeah, and that's what it is. But in the end, it's the shock is to OMG is still there. That's the shock. It's okay to have that. Like, you know, I still have that, I can have that. I all get if I get those uh PVCs like ectopic beaks, often I will still have the initial because it's startling, it it just is. I can't get rid of that. That's just the way we work. But then it's just a matter of how quickly I catch the like, oh, wait a minute, hang on, I know what this is.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

That's so right, and it's so applicable to this episode because you know, for for the cynics that are like, you know, Drew Drew and Josh say they still get anxiety now and then, like, yeah, but everyone gets anxiety, right? And when you've had an anxiety disorder for years, you've created those neuropathways in your brain. Yep, yeah, that only get old and dusty, you know, they never really go away. The butt, you have the new, stronger, super duper ones that you've done through habit and willful tolerance and surrendering and looking at behaviors, things like that. Is that that is recovery. If we if we if you if we have an anxiety of panic attack now, the gap between that happening and and you're not just a panic, that's an extreme case, it's just feeling anxious now and then because you're stressed. The gap between the oh my god and because we don't give it attention and resistance it kind of to oh well is so short, but that's that's that's recovery. And not a natural, that's I'd argue that's kind of what you know the the the typical non-anxiety disorder person does as well. I think everyone gets adrenal dumps, everyone gets something, but they just don't have all those years of associations with it, yeah. Misinformation or resisting it, etc. And so yeah, that that goes to say like you're not failing when you have the shock, the oh my god, but yeah, let's let's reduce that time. Yeah, conceptualize it.

SPEAKER_03 29:50

I think it was a few episodes ago we said that like non-anxious people do really care how they feel, just as much as you do. If you're listening to this podcast, they just only care in very short bursts of time. You care for a very long amount of time, that's the difference, and the very long amount of time is driven by attention and resistance. That's what prolongs the caring interval. So, you know, we're this is this is this is a lot of math in this episode. We should have a whole like math, there'd be like a board full of equations or something. I don't know how to how to do it, but yeah, probably not. Um, but I I think this is it's important. It's not easy to to deal with the attention and resistance thing because we can always return to like, why is it so difficult? Because if I choose to give it less attention, which is really about spreading your attention around, you can't turn off your attention. Like, attention is a verb, it's a thing you do, it's not a thing you have. So you can spread your attention around, but that feels really risky. Like Giovanni at the monster truck pole. Like, I'm sure all he really wanted to do was save himself from those feelings, but like, well, I am gonna take a risk of also paying attention to my son who's having a really good time at this event. That's feels doesn't feel right.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

And yet he's and then he you could tell he his anxiety could come down and he was probably enjoying the event. Yep, because that gap. Also, that's why it's so important to get out of places when you're entrenched in habit, particularly if you're the agrophobia, the monophobia, or if your anxiety disorder is entrenched in a routine. It's always good. I remember reading this in your in your first book, Drew, about you know, if you if you get up in the morning and scan and worry about your anxiety, get your shoes on and get out. You know, just go for a walk, you know, because immediately it's so much easier to form new habits, you know, where when you uh when the environment's different, the brain has different associations. Don't get me wrong, you can rewire an association no matter what room you're in.

SPEAKER_04 31:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

But it's if you're really in the midst and the hamster wheel's going really fast, you know, change it, you know. And then I bet Giovanni was like, Well, I'm not at the monster trucks every day. Well, he might be, but but but yeah, I'm not at the monster trucks every day, but here's a chance for me to play with this fear in different surroundings, and that will give him the confidence and the boost.

SPEAKER_03 32:03

Yeah, without a doubt. And I think what's interesting about that is that is a in terms of attention and resistance, it's like, well, people will say, nothing is working for me. Like I've been at this so long and I can't find anything that works. But you have to look and say, What have you been trying? Odds are you have been trying things that are literally increasing your attention paid and resistance against. Yeah, right? Because you test and check if something works. When you technique something, where's your attention? Yeah, on did it work? The checking, did it work? Evaluation is attention, and then resistance is I'm techniquing it to make it go away. I'm trying to get the sun out of the sky.

SPEAKER_02 32:43

Yeah, yeah. And that's why every time you get get asked on radio or something, they're like, What's your top five tips to end a panic attack? I'm like, no. And from now on, I'll say because it gives you attention and resistance. Yeah. And if you refer to episode 78 of the Disorder Podcast, we can explain this to you.

SPEAKER_03 32:59

Chock full of wisdom. I was invited on uh Instagram live with a guy who's pretty big in the addiction space, a good dude. And it's funny, that's how he started. You know, he's like, Oh, I got Drew on, he's this anxiety guy. And he was literally, that's what he wanted to know. What are your top five tips? And by the end of our little live stream, he was like, You just said you said none of what I would have expected you to say. Where's the nutrition? Where's the relaxation? Where's the you know, where's the grounding? Where I'm like, no, no, no, and no, you know, like use those later.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Those are cool. Did did you use the the the old disorder, um not uh exactly truth member of I recovered on cigarettes and candy?

SPEAKER_03 33:38

Ingrid listening. Yeah, she was so adamant about and I dig that about her. She's like, hey, stop talking about that, man. I would smoke cigarettes and ate chocolate all day long.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

You can always you can recover eating cheeseburger.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

Now I want a cheeseburger.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Now I'm starting. Yeah. At the monster rally. Yeah. Um I hope you got something out of that, guys. Anything you more you want to add, Drew, or should we uh dive into um community wins, questions, etc.?

SPEAKER_03 34:03

Yeah, let's do it. I think we have an audio did it anyway, and you have a written one? Did you have a question or something?

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Yeah, I've got I've got a short um written did it anyway. I love this one, it's really good. Yeah, okay, here we go. Hello. I have a Did It Anyway to share from a few months back. You can use my name. My name is Cheryl. I'm 19. I've been dealing with debilitating emetophobia since 2020. Although I have had a fear of being sick for as long as I can remember. For the whole of December, I had a bad cough cold, and on the day before New Year's Eve, the cough got so bad that I started to gag and wretch. I haven't physically vomited for nine years, but in that moment where I was gagging, I didn't panic nearly as much as I thought I would. I just said to myself, okay, this is happening, let's do this. I didn't end up being sick, thankfully, but the gagging was so severe I strained my throat. I managed to carry on with my day afterwards without completely overthinking it. I was wondering if you'd ever do an episode on emetophobia. We will do, as it'd be so insightful and helpful, and we'll probably use this as an example. Uh, it still affects me every single moment of my life. Well, Cheryl, I think you've done really well there. Well done.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

I would say the same.

SPEAKER_02 35:21

A metaphobia. I love that during when it was happening. Yeah. And afterwards, and actually your attention and resistance to it after after the the incident, which doesn't sound horrible, no, was was really encouraging. So yeah, well done. I know we get we will do an episode on emetophobia. It's nothing, it's not the special thing, but it's just what our attention and resistance and the threat response likes to pick on.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

Ametophobia itself, I think, is the one that will always insist. It is the special one. The the the emetophobes are the toughest, toughest subgenre in our, I think, in our community, because emetophobia will insist, no, no, no, this really is. This is the worst thing that could possibly happen to a human being ever.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

I don't know. I think people with real event OCD.

SPEAKER_03 36:03

Well, but it really happened.

SPEAKER_02 36:04

Oh, you know, right. We're gonna have we're gonna have the disordered Olympics. So submit your specialty, and we will have a tournament of who's the most awkward with uh anxious presentation. And uh so metaphobes on the left, you'll be on the left hand side of the cop draw, real event OCD and intense health anxiety, you'll be on the right hand side. Uh, monophobia and driving anxiety, you'll be on pot C, and we'll have a huge Royal Rumble and see who It's like a cage match. Who comes? That was the last man standing. I tell you who's not gonna win, social anxiety people. Oh yeah, and that and the agrophobes like you and I, Drew, who wouldn't even make it to the tournament.

SPEAKER_03 36:48

No, we would not be able to come there. And I I think what's interesting about that is you know, when you work with somebody one-on-one, you get to do that. Like a lot of times we'll do things like, I'm guessing you do this too, but it's like, well, tell me, you know, tell me what the problem is. Where what is why can't you do that? And when the person has to explain back and justify out loud why it is they must stay in bed all day, halfway through the story, a lot of times the person will like get that blank look on their face. This is ridiculous. Like they will hear how how irrational it is. So maybe the great like anxiety disorder, like cage match, would be an interesting thing. Like, tell us why your your metaphobia is so important because sometimes when you have to speak it out loud, you hear that like, wait a minute, what are they? What did I just say? Does that sound right? Yeah, and interesting thing, you know.

SPEAKER_02 37:35

Yeah, and a not from a mock, we we say that in a joking way because we know we know it's like it's not mocking at all.

SPEAKER_03 37:41

It's just when you hear it out loud, sometimes it's like, I can't believe I just said that. That makes no sense at all.

SPEAKER_02 37:45

I had severe emetophobia many years ago, where I had to have a safety object, a magic, a magic plastic bag. So everywhere I'd walk, you could hear me rustling because I always had the plastic bag just in case I threw up in public, you know. Um, yeah, and I was just but I was just like, this is getting ridiculous now.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

Yeah, you couldn't you were not stealthy at all.

SPEAKER_02 38:07

We always knew you're gonna be and then it turned to two plastic bags just in case I needed another one, you know, and it's just like and then I'd avoid restaurants with the and stuff like that, and yeah, it's it's a nasty one, but we could do an episode of Metophobia, why not?

SPEAKER_03 38:21

Yeah, 100%. Maybe we'll get somebody to help us with that one, but I don't know. It definitely needs to be talked about. I got it, we got a driving did it anyway. It's a doing it anyway. So let's play. Oh yeah, I like it.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Hello, Josh and Drew. My name is Amy. You can use my name. I have uh already sent in uh did it anyway, but I'm doing another one because I'm doing it anyway right now while I'm recording. I have to pick up my kids for a doctor's appointment, and uh tends to be a trigger for me driving alone with my children. I didn't anticipate feeling this way today. I thought I was having a nice smooth day. Uh, but here she is, amygdala is quite scared. Um, I've been thinking of all the ways that I can get out of driving them. Can I cancel the appointment? Can I have somebody come and help me? Who can I call? Etc. etc. Had a couple of adrenaline rushes. Now I'm in the car, and I've just decided that okay, I'm going to go ahead and uh lose control, or maybe I will get in a car accident, or I'm just gonna go ahead and traumatize my children with having a major panic attack in the car and becoming out of control, or you know, I could let's just go ahead and you know, pass out or have a heart attack. So I'm gonna do all those things uh because my maker is quite sure I'm going to, and then we'll just see how it all goes. So I'm doing it anyway.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

That was great. I really like that one. I love it. Because you could tell in the tone of a voice, you know, even though it feels real, it feels uh urgent, it feels dangerous. Yeah, she knows, and that's why she's doing it.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Well done, well done. Yeah, what you were hearing there is dropping resistance. Well, I guess we're gonna go crazy and traumatize kids today. Okay, no fight.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

She was in in shock. Yep. My amygdala's firing off. Yeah, yeah. Dropping resistance.

SPEAKER_03 40:08

Very good. Well, excellent job. All right, guys. We have anything else to say about shock uh resistance and attention.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Um, that t-shirt choice is uh shocking.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

We should be on that, yeah. Oh, this is shocking. So I'm in my hair. Everything about me is shocking this morning. It's not that you guys can't see this.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

So good.

SPEAKER_03 40:30

Listen, everybody, we appreciate hanging out with you guys every Friday. If you want to send in a did it anyway, ask a question, you can go to disorder.fm. If you want, if you really like this podcast and you want to maybe just like leave a review of it or five-star rating on Apple or Spotify, we love that. And then like you should follow along with us on social media. Where are you?

SPEAKER_02 40:48

Uh I'm Anxiety Josh. And you are the.anxious.truth. Oh, before we go as well, and if you manage to get to this far in the episode, well done to you. Congratulations. A lot of people turn it off just for the end. Yeah. Secret for uh Drew and I will be launching uh the this the disordered round table soon, which will be uh a frequent kind of drop-in where we come in and you can answer uh ask questions, sit in, and we have real life experiences at the table. We'll have a round table discussion about anxiety, but more about that. But if you want to find out more, um sign up at disorder.fm to the newsletter and you'll get an advanced.

SPEAKER_03 41:28

We never email anybody, but we will when this is ready.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

We will when this is out. That's the best way to do it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 41:33

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, head on over to disorder.fm and there's a little email subscription thing, just pop on there. We don't spam anybody, I promise. I don't we haven't sent email in like a year, so you don't have to worry about that. But uh yeah, thanks for listening. Look out for disordered round table and yeah, catch you soon. And wait, aren't we doing a DPDR workshop too?

SPEAKER_02 41:50

There is a DPDR workshop, yeah. Um, if you're listening to this after it's it's um occurred, yeah, um, then you'll be able to download it at some point. But yeah, there's a DPDR workshop. Uh when is it? Next week? September 27th, I think.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

I haven't even done it.

SPEAKER_02 42:07

September 27th, yeah, 8 p.m.

SPEAKER_03 42:08

UK time. Yeah, if you go to disorder.fm slash seven eight, that's will be the show notes for this episode. I'll put a link to that so you can either get it live with us or you can watch a replay afterwards.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Yeah, it's nice and fun, you can interact to use things, and yeah. 100% anyway. Thank you very much for tuning in. Yeah, we'll see you next week. We're out.