Anxiety, ChatGPT, AI, Reddit ... and Dr. Google (Episode 108)

SPEAKER_03 0:02

In an age of uncertainty and the chasing the illusion of certainty, a lot of compulsive behavior and a lot of sticky behavior ends up at the doorstep of AI.

SPEAKER_05 0:15

But Reddit is a close second. People still love to troll through the Reddit forums, and I don't mean troll in a bad way, I mean just literally like scroll through them and look. I asked ChatGPT what I should do for exposure. I asked ChatGPT what avoidance is. I it tells you what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. Either I don't have a therapist or I can't access one, but I got this, and this will answer the question. Please tell me more about sleep anxiety. A bot will happily talk to you about it. So I think we have to be really careful about how we use it and how we train it to help us. You have to tell it how to help you before it can really help you. Welcome to Disordered. Welcome back to Disordered. After a little hiatus, this is episode 107 entitled ChatGPT, Reddit, and Dr. Google, three of our favorites. Uh, I am Drew Insulata. I am a therapist practicing pre-license under supervision in the area of anxiety and anxiety disorders in the United States, in the state of New York, former sufferer of anxiety disorders, OCD, depression, for many years of my life on and off, but better now, a three-time author on this topic, clearly a podcast co-host, general goofball, pseudo-expert, maybe, don't know, helpful dude. I'm joined as always by my esteemed co-host in the UK.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

Uh hi, Drew. Uh I'm Josh, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a therapist based in the UK. Uh I am the co-host of this wonderful podcast. Uh, write books, prance around on social media, and like to talk about anxiety and anxiety disorders, which is a joint passion that Drew and I both have. And it's nice to be back after a break. If you're someone who doesn't follow up to date every Friday and you're catching up, then that gap probably meant nothing to you. But we're back. Totally meaningless.

SPEAKER_05 2:04

Uh we got a lot of nice messages though, wondering when we would be back. So evidently people do like to listen. Thank you guys. We appreciate that. Where are you? That was a those two people that were worried that we weren't coming back. So uh so this was your idea, this episode. I'm gonna let you run lead on this one for sure. What prompted this? ChatGPT, Reddit, and Dr. Google. What's on your mind?

SPEAKER_03 2:26

Uh it's a subject that needs to be spoken about now because it's obviously it's the new internet artificial intelligence, and the amount of anxious people, obsessive compulsive people, whether they're worried about how they feel, intrusive thoughts, doubt about who they are, doubt about anxiety, doubt about how to get better. Uh, in an age of uncertainty and the chasing the illusion of certainty, a lot of compulsive behavior and a lot of sticky behavior ends up at the doorstep of AI, chat GPT being one of them, but there's many of them. Um I've had so many inquiries from therapy bots and therapy apps to have my face and voice superimposed to allow a bot to kind of dictate mental health. I think this is like an episode that needs to be done with a nice debate and stuff and discussion about it, but with like a subtle warning, particularly for our community, it's there. You know, you can you can have reassurance, compulsive reassurance, unhelpful reassurance on tap any time of the day, and that's only gonna make things stickier. So I just wanted to talk about that uh with Dr. Google as well, which is very AI um oriented now when you search for stuff. And also for the Redditors, I was a Redditor back then, you know. Maybe if I just find the exact carbon copy of myself on Reddit, yeah, maybe he'll give me the reassurance I need, you know. Oh, he's got exactly the same symptoms as I have. Oh, but he's only six foot dead instead of six foot two, therefore my heart still could explode. I don't know what do you think, Drew?

SPEAKER_05 4:13

Yeah, interesting that you mentioned Reddit. It might be ChatGPT is definitely the thing that comes up more than anything else, but Reddit is a close second. People still love to troll through the Reddit forums, and I don't mean troll in a bad way, I mean just literally like scroll through them and look. And a lot of mental health information is gotten and conclusions drawn based on Reddit conversations. And if you look at the sources underneath a lot of the AI answers, they will tell you flat out, they're scraping Reddit. This is from Reddit. And I'm like, oh wow, okay, yeah. Reddit is a huge source of AI model training right now.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Is it it's because it has a high DA rating? Probably so, so, so the this is the thing, so AI, ChatGPT, all the when they gather their information, they go from from websites with a high DA index rating. So WebMD, NHS in England, psychology today, uh respected websites. I thought I'm sure the Anxious Truth and the School of Anxiety have a minus three DA rating. And you might be right about that. And therefore, and it collates the information there. Uh but as we know, like you know, you've got conventional anxiety and disordered anxiety. If you don't properly understand the nature of how your anxiety presents, you might get conflicting information, or in most cases, for particularly people who want, you know, they're addicted to relief and they need anxious reassurance, it tells you what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. And I I've started to notice that with clients, with people, with questions I get sent. Um, I've even noticed it amongst therapy colleagues that use it. Now, I'm not saying it's a really bad thing. Yeah, I'm just saying if you're a Redditor, Googler, ChatGPT, you know, you wouldn't still be listening to this podcast if it worked. Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_05 6:12

It's a really good point. I'm I'm interested. I mean, I we already kind of knew that like among the people who are listening to this podcast following our social media communities, we know that they're going there. That's totally fine. When I I asked my Instagram audience, I mean it's a very informal poll, but like yeah, most people are saying yeah. And and they they said this is how I use it. I asked ChatGPT what I should do for exposure. I asked ChatGPT what avoidance is. I so they kind of get an idea of what the questions are they should ask it. And so they do. And then therapy clients also do it. So between sessions, I ask Chat GPT about my exposure plan, which which always blows me away. Now that's fine, it's a it could be a resource, right? If you used well, it could possibly be a resource. I'm not going to poo-poo it, but at the same time, it strikes me as amazing how it's gotten like so ingrained in our like collective consciousness that you literally sit with a therapist every week that that wants to do an exposure plan with you, and but you'll go out and ask software what your exposure plan should be, which is always interesting. Might be more comfortable for them, who knows?

SPEAKER_03 7:15

But but but this again, we know our community well. A lot of people mistake chatting to chat GPT um as kind of doing something about it, but I've also noticed that it's subtle avoidance. Well, I won't do the the the exposure or the scary thing today, but I'll do some air quotes prep for it. So I will ask the AI bot or go on Reddit or Dr. Google, you know, how does my exposure plan look to you today? You know, and and then it's almost like we're getting reassurance about how scary it will be. And what we're gonna remember is anxiety recovery is your willingness to tolerate uncertainty. And often what you'll find, and ask yourself this question if you're using the the software to chase the illusion of certainty, then you're gonna only increase the intensity of your obsessive compulsive loop and this fixation on fixing a feeling that you don't like. Now, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying sometimes we can misuse tools. For example, this morning I stirred my cup of tea with a spade. I didn't. I just want to say it's an example of misusing tools. Um, but by all means, you know. The other day I asked it to rewrite an email. I wrote an email out to someone who I dislike, and I said, Can you make this sound polite and respectful? And it took about 10 minutes to rewrite it. Sorry, dude, this email is too far gone.

SPEAKER_05 8:45

Start again. What was that about? Break fluid?

SPEAKER_03 8:51

You need to take that out.

SPEAKER_05 8:52

And again, 40% of the words are profanities. I can't rewrite that, it's just not possible.

SPEAKER_03 8:57

So we've had to remove, do the conga line over your gravestone. No, no, we and now and then we've kind of done a nice respectful email. Uh but yeah, it it's how you use the tool. Um, just a heads up, you know, you're not a bad person for if you're doing stuff. Um you know, you feel free to, but just just be just be aware of that kind of the addicted to relief crowd and the I need to be a hundred percent certain crowd, particularly if you've got OCD, particular people with OCD and Chat GPT. You are how do you know I'm a good person? Right. But I did this when I was nine. How do you know I won't have a heart attack? How do you know? How do you know this? Give me more evidence about this. Where's links about this? And and you you can feel that that need for certainty even more.

SPEAKER_05 9:45

And often it will. I mean, it's it's there to answer you, right? So I I think, and again, it's not, you're right, it's not an automatically an evil tool, but you got to use it properly. And I think where we see it a lot is when you know, we get your messages, and by the way, you can go to disorder.fm and send us voice messages or email. And so many of the questions would be I love the episode on. Can you talk more about that? There's always the can you talk more about that? Hey, like I know on you know, my other podcast, The Anxious Truth, I've done probably seven or eight sleep anxiety episodes, but I get asked every week, can you talk more about that? Well, if I say no, because like, well, I've already talked all I've already given you all I can say in a podcast episode. After this, you gotta you need a therapist. Well, I don't either I don't have a therapist or I can't access one, but I got this, and this will answer the question. Please tell me more about sleep anxiety. A bot will happily talk to you about it. And they're getting so good. I can't take it away from them. It feels like you're talking to a person sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

It's 100% every month. I mean, but this time next year, it's gonna be even more, it's gonna have voices, it's gonna have I mean it's got voices now, it's gonna feel tailored. Now, don't get me wrong, sometimes it's better, it's better than nothing. Like I had an experiment with it the other day, and I asked it, you know, just fed it a load of nonsense and see see what it would reflect on. I was like, wow, that's pretty impressive now. Never mind what it's gonna be at in a few years. Yeah, but can it convey empathy, understanding, and jump into uncertain moments with you? Yeah, and be in real time. No, it can't. So again, just just be wary of it. I'll tell you what, it also can't do. Did it anyways? It can't do that AI related voice clip.

SPEAKER_05 11:27

Can we play? Well, we got a few of them, so let's start with this one because it's pretty damn good, ready?

unknown 11:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Hi, Drew and Josh. My name is Hannah. Feel free to use my name. Um, I have been following you guys for years now, so thank you so much for everything you've done. You have no idea how much it helps. Um, but I wanted to share a success story. I have a lot of social anxiety and I fully stopped living my life three years ago. And you can't let, you know, other people's plans dictate when you can and can't do your exposures. So yesterday was Saturday and all my friends were busy and I knew I needed to go out and do something. And I ended up going to a movie totally by myself because I was like, everyone being busy is not gonna stop me. In the past, I would have just thought, oh, it looks like I have to stay home. I went to a movie alone. Um, I was really anxious when I got there, but it ended up being totally fine. I saw a great movie, had a good time, got some popcorn, and went home. And I also drove there, which is hard for me. So it's kind of two exposures in one. So I'm really proud of that. And I hope that people don't let other people stop them from doing their exposures. You don't always need someone with you because at the end of the day, you're in this, you're the one who's getting this fixed. So just trust in yourself and go from there.

SPEAKER_05 12:42

How good was that? Good job, Hannah. Love it. You know what I love? You can't let other people, I would wait for other people before I would do my exposures. So good. Figure that out.

SPEAKER_03 12:52

Yeah, so it was a multiple. Billy Mays was involved with that one as well, with the not only you know going to the movie theater, but driving as well and just diving into uncertainty. Well done. That was really good, Hannah. And uh I do love the data anyways. They're they are fun.

SPEAKER_05 13:07

Uh one of the things that I find interesting about the use of like this is a good example, I think, to get that answer, at least in the current environment, because I have been spending time experimenting and testing. And actually, if you guys follow me on my Substack, I have a whole series of articles that's going to come out on an AI-generated anxiety influencer that will make you want to throw your phone in the ocean and never follow another account again. Because it is can be a useful tool, but also it's trained on the most popular information. You have to always remember that. So when I'm asking the best models we have why this fake influencer, her name is Claire Ellis, by the way, like she even has a name and a picture. It's gonna be good. Like, why would she say that? It's telling me because the most successful influencers portray this, say this, push these buttons, you know, generate these emotions, make people like them. Like it's telling me the quiet part out loud. And when I challenge it and I say, hey, I'm a therapist and that doesn't sound exactly right, it will tell me. But she's not lying. She's pre she's providing curated hope. So you have to this very same tool that you want to use to help you with your mental health is also primed to do that in the mental health space. So I think we have to be really careful about how we use it and how we train it to help us. You have to tell it how to help you before it can really help you. And I think a lot of people miss that.

SPEAKER_03 14:41

Yeah. Uh by the way, yeah, do get on a Drew Substack. I've had a uh Josh has seen a sneak peek of some of it. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, it's it's fascinating. We'll rile for that to come up.

SPEAKER_04 14:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

Um, yeah, no, it's uh it's a bit like your social media algorithm, you know. I often get asked, you know, is is is Instagram and TikTok bad for your and I was like, well, it depends what you see, it depends what your algorithm's been kind of programmed to show you, you know. If you follow trusted people and and and and stuff like that, then you're only gonna see advice that you'd hope that that that is that's good for for your recovery. But if you just type in hashtag anxiety on on social media, you're gonna get an abundance of ice packs and stuff, which by the way, Drew is delighted that I put that at the front of my TED talk. You know, just that whole montage. If you've not seen the TED Talk yet, at the start of it, I blast to a whole arena um all the nonsense instatherapy things about anxiety that you see, uh, and things like that. But yeah, again, it's about what you see, and I think with AI and stuff like that, it's what are you feeding it. But we're human, we're nuanced, we every our threats are subjective to us, and people's anxiety present differently. So just be aware of that.

SPEAKER_05 16:13

Yeah. I think you know, we could probably offer a few little guidelines. The first one that I would probably say is well, we'll get to the more difficult ones, but the first one would be if you're asking the AI bot, the question that you've asked your partner, your friends, the podcast host, the social media people, your therapist, if you've already asked that question or a variant on that question 50 times in the last six months, why are you asking it again? So it it will happily let you ask. And I've only seen a few instances where people said, after a lot of repeating the question, it finally said, Are you sure you want to keep asking me this? But like it has a which was great. I give the the the bot or the internet a lot of credit. Yeah, two people said that at one point Chat GPT literally said, Is do you think it's healthy for you to keep asking me this question? So I give it credit. It knows enough in its database, right, to to question that. But it has a very high tolerance for reassurance seeking, whereas maybe Josh and I have a much lower tolerance, which is really better for you. So if you keep asking it the same questions, hoping to get the magic answer, is that really a tool? I don't know. I don't think so. So that would be the first guideline I might offer.

SPEAKER_03 17:27

You know, anxiety people with anxiety and OCD and stuff like that. Very clever and sneaky. I used to do this, so not saying this to put people down. I was very clever and sneaky with my reassurance seeking. Oh, yeah. So you go back to it, you'd always find a way around, or just new chat and do it again and do it again. You know, and again, that's a very small, fast-moving hamster wheel you're on there, and our days become seeking an air quotes answer or that relief that we're addicted to, as opposed to I forgot the goal here, the willful tolerance of uncertainty.

SPEAKER_04 18:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:04

So instead, I'm gonna, if I am gonna use it, I'll open up my fridge, type in every ingredient that I have in my very bare fridge, and ask it to make me a recipe, which I tried by the way, uh, and I cooked absolute dredge. I don't know what it was telling me to do. I followed it by the book, and I created I don't know, like cattle food. I have no idea what I made.

SPEAKER_05 18:31

It'd be easy for me. It's like ketchup and two bad potatoes, good to go. Now I'm joking. But that's an interesting use, right? Yeah, the slimiest thing you find in the fridge, the emetophobia episode, that which we've talked about that. But uh, I I think you're right. It just depends on like how are you using it? What are you asking it? What are you expecting it? Oh you almost almost really sit down before you start to use these tools and say, wait, what am I trying to get out of this? And along the lines of like how sneaky reassurance speaking could be. And I get it because I used to do the same thing too. And in in a situation where the two of us have the privilege of interacting with many, many thousands of anxious people, we know all the tricks at this point. Well, I'm just the kind of person that does better when they know more. That's one. Another one would be like, anxiety is so stupid, isn't it? Ha ha ha ha ha. Which is like, can you please tell me that you feel the same thing as me again? Confirm that my feeling is is common and it's not dangerous. Like sometimes I see that humorous thing or the whole like common, yeah, it's you know, or ha ha ha ha, this is so silly. But which is absolutely, you can see right through it. Like, this is I want to ask you if this is okay, but I know you won't answer me, so I'll make a joke and see what your response is. Like it's so funny. So, like, really ask yourself, what am I hoping to get each time I sit down or I fire up my phone, I talk into it, or whatever way you interact with it? What am I trying to do here? Will this teach me something that I don't already know? Or do I already know it? I just don't like what I know, and I'm hoping for a different answer. Or how will this inform an action that I'm about to take? If it doesn't inform any action whatsoever, then what am I trying to get out of this? Because recovery is an action thing, it's a doing thing in our context. It's not a listening or reading or learning, a little bit, but mostly it's a doing thing. So, like, how is the AI bot gonna actually help me do a thing? So, what do you what's your intention each time you fire it up? What are you looking for?

SPEAKER_03 20:21

Yeah, no, that's um, yeah, no. Um that that that's comp you're spot on with that. I think as well with when you're using um if you use it, if you're not, then please stay blissfully ignorant. I honestly think that's on it's on your side. But it's good to know about it, particularly if you've got friends and loved ones, or particularly a lot of people in the younger generations as well are using this as a tool as as much as I'd use a thesaurus when I was in school, it's becoming that tool. Um I like, yeah, I like when you said, you know, what are you actually doing here? Well, all you're doing is just trying to get rid of a feeling and then you forgot what the main goal was. You know, and just just be careful with all that stuff. And it is the same, it's the equivalent, though. It's the same if you're a Redditor, if you're someone who's far along in your recovery and you you know you used to use Reddit instead, it's the same process, isn't it? You know, everyone always thinks that they've got that special, unique, tailored advice. Yeah, yes, I can ask Dr. Google, but on Reddit, that's where the real niche people are. So I can type in my really niche search term and then pop Reddit on the end, and I'll get all the secret archives of the advice that I really want. I remember you used to have that feeling, and it felt like, yeah, I'm getting closer, I'm getting closer to the answer to make anxiety go away. AI, therapy bots, chat GPT, and all that stuff capture that same feeling for people with anxiety disorders in the sense that you feel like you're getting. Something tailored completely to you. And in a sense, you are. But what is it you're getting? Oh, I've got relief. You know, that pain under my ribs really common. You know, and actually it said that you know it's usually it's down to stress and tension and stuff. You knew that already. Right. You know, your doctor can tell you as well. Look at the mechanism that you're maintaining as opposed to trying to switch off.

SPEAKER_05 22:26

Yeah, I agree. One of the other things you kind of have to do, I think I mentioned it earlier, is you have to teach it how to help you. So if you're listening to this podcast, then you're no stranger to acceptance and mindfulness-based approaches to anxiety and anxiety disorders. You almost have to tell it that. Like, hey, I'm going to ask you questions about my mental health. Here's my presenting problem. And I want you to answer through the lens of third-wave cognitive behavioral mindfulness and acceptance-based strategies. Otherwise, it's not going to do that.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

It's it's that's really good advice. Yeah. It's not going to do that. I didn't even think I didn't even think like how how can we tell people how to use it? That's real, that's progressive. I just wanted to rant like an old man shouts at cloud.

SPEAKER_05 23:08

Well, I just just shaking his fist and defiling. Well, I get it. And like in in my experimentation, really over the last year, I will use it sometimes to see what I can get back out of it. And I always have to tell it. Otherwise, it will default to the most popular content, and you will get all the cliches. Remember, it's okay to not be okay. It will give you a ton of coping things, it will give you grounding techniques, it will give you all the stuff. It will tell you to use ice packs. I it 100% will. Yeah, it 100% will. So avoid, you know, learning how to manage your triggers, avoid your triggers, manage your anxiety. It's going to give you all of that because it doesn't know what you're talking about. Like you'd almost have to say, whether you were diagnosed it not or not, this is and this is dangerous. Like, hey, ChatGPT, I have panic disorder. Please please talk to me through the lens of acceptance and mindfulness-based treatments for panic disorder that are empirically validated. If you don't tell it that, it's going to tell you how to manage your symptoms, avoid your triggers, and perpetuate the problem because it's going to confirm that, yeah, this is a really difficult experience. You should and here's how to never panic. It's it's going to shoot you in the foot. So you really have to say, no, no, no, I want you to sound like those two goofballs with the microphones. Like, can you talk to me like they talk to me? It's really important. Really important. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:31

So, in theory, could you like take everything we've said, feed it into a chatbot, and then say, only give me advice given based on what these guys say?

SPEAKER_05 24:43

That's a really good question. I bet you could. I mean, I I shudder to say that because I'm inviting people to experiment. I guarantee that next week we're gonna somebody's gonna have like send us a voicemail of us.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

But yeah, no, not our voices, but just like just like if there's a memory bank that you use when you're chatting to artificial intelligence. Yeah. It says, Right, and let's say someone's in the in the middle of about to do an exposure in the middle of panicking, and then they say, Given everything that what this or ACT or or third wave CBT or disordered on and things like that, what do I do now? And can you imagine if it just turned around and said, Don't jump into the pool of custard?

SPEAKER_05 25:25

A hundred percent. Something about a screaming eagle, but if that's actually a red tail hawk, like you probably could do that though. If you pointed it and said, like, hey, I want you to answer based on this podcast, go go scrape the whole podcast catalog. It probably would, I bet. I I will tell you this. I had to. So there's a couple of different engines. The one that I think is kind of cool that helps with writing my that's their primary thing, is Claude, right? So Claude AI, you guys might know Claude. And Claude literally was created by a bunch of people who broke out of open AI and said, Well, we don't like what's going on there. This is kind of dangerous. So we're gonna make the ethical AI. Except that when I experiment with Claude to do stuff like take my podcast transcripts and turn them into blog posts, I have to feed it like 18 documents again and again and again that specifically say, this is what I will never say. Don't overpromise, don't guarantee, don't use half-assed shit, don't use crazy trends. I have to keep telling it again and again, or else my blog posts for every episode of The Anxious Truth will make your hair curl. It would be cringe. I would hate my own website. So I have to keep telling it again and again and again. And I'm like, why do you not know this? Well, I'm sorry, I'm going based on what I'm trained on. It tells me. So if you tell me what to say, I'll make sure that I say it right.

SPEAKER_03 26:47

So it's so important to frame it. And isn't that a nice, you know, stark warning for our community where actually it will not default to telling you the appropriate response.

SPEAKER_05 27:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

You know, it will fall into safety behavior, stuff like that, and it will default to what it thinks is the right answer.

SPEAKER_05 27:06

Is the right answer, which I think is so important too, because it's not only when you're going and sitting down and typing a chat GPT or Claude or Gemini, whatever you're using, know that when you're scrolling now, and now I'm on a little rant myself. I could see you coming, get ready. When you're scrolling through TikTok and Instagram, know that probably at this point, 30%, maybe more, of the biggest creators in wellness and personal development and mental health are sitting down with Chat GPT or their engine of choice at the first of every month and having it script and create their entire month worth of content. And it doesn't matter what it says as long as it keeps your attention. Because the AI engines know that that's what a creator is trying to do. This is the part that, and again, I'm not plugging my substack, but like it is very good at that. Say this. Claire Ellis, the fake influencer that I'm making, will say this because it intend engenders trust. It builds a parasocial relationship. So your favorite, most popular creators are using these engines to get your attention, keep it, and know like trust. Oh, I know him, I like him, I now I trust him, I will buy from him. So AI is not just when you ask it about exposures, it's also feeding you what you see in your scroll. And it's not interested in good information.

SPEAKER_03 28:24

Only I've seen a picture of Claire Ellis as well. Unconvention, I mean, was it uh unrealistic body type, you know, conventionally attractive, yeah, kind of first? It doesn't matter as long, you know. I like what was the three things?

SPEAKER_05 28:39

Like, yeah, like no trust. And when I asked it, like, hey, make her a little bit more influential. This is gonna be great. Uh, it's really uh it I'm trying not trying to make it about that, but the interesting I literally had to ask the engine, it was ChatGPT. Hey, when when I asked you to tweak this and make her more relatable, why did you make the changes it made? And I'll tell you flat out that one of the changes it made was it changed her bust size and made it smaller and gave her less cleavage. And I said, Finally, you didn't address that. Why did you do that? And it was like, oh, good catch. Well, I did that because we want to make her aspirational, but not unattainable. Wow, yes, it literally says that. This is what the best influencers know how to do. It was a joke at first.

SPEAKER_03 29:27

Prejudice, yeah, yeah. It was drawing upon like internalized cultural prejudices, stuff like that, uh, stereotypes, things like that. Yeah, yes, it's very powerful. But have you noticed that, like, actually the the the very base level of what you're asking, you as a human, yeah, as a human, you are a complex, unique, wonderful individual. So try not to find the answers about yourself from an engine that is going trying to just show you and tell you what you want to hear.

SPEAKER_05 29:58

Yeah, it doesn't know, and it only knows big giant trends. It doesn't, it doesn't know you. You would have to really bear your soul to that engine for weeks, probably, for it to fully understand. Like, why, and you know this when you work with clients, like why is a person repeating exposures and some some they learn from whoa, Josh literally just almost had his camera fall in his face. That was great. I'm like, is there an earthquake in the UK right now? DAI is listening. Oh, if we don't hear from Josh anymore, we'll know what happened. I'll teach you to bad bath me. I've got all your electrons. Suddenly he just got sucked into the webcam, and that was the end of them. We don't know what happened. But I I think it doesn't, you know, you're repeating the things again and again. I'm doing the things, but for some reason I only see them as failures. I can't learn the lesson from this particular exposure. This is when we start unpacking it even more. And we're not looking for like trauma root cause, but we might be looking for things that, oh, can you see why you can't see this experience as a learning experience? You're bringing these 68 different like introjected beliefs into this and childhood experiences and last past experiences. Chat GPT is never gonna be able to do that. So it's just gonna keep repeating the instructions to do an exposure. And that doesn't help you. So if you're in a hit a roadblock, like these are not good tools to help you like ferret out the nuances of that roadblock. It's not gonna be able to tell you that, I'll tell you right now. But not until it has unlimited amounts of storage for each user and an unlimited amount of CPU power. Theoretically, it could learn you like a human would, but there's limitations to that.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

So isn't it already like boiling the planet as well?

SPEAKER_05 31:45

Yeah, that's I mean, that's a whole other thing. Carbon footprint is I literally when I when I hinted at this AI thing that I was working on, I had people literally DM me and say, like, oh, sir, you're involved in like uh what is ecological terrorism.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

I mean, that's that's that's a stretch. But yeah, it is not it's not good for uh for for a lot of things, but like I said, you it's it's not gonna stop. Um, but my advice would be like if I I am so grateful I don't have it uh well didn't have it when I was um struggling. Sorry. That was the one of the I think we said this in a very early episode. I'm so glad I didn't have social media back when I was struggling. I had like early Facebook, and who cares? Just my aunt you didn't it wasn't even people uploading photos, it was just oh I'm watching Master Chef, it was good, you know, and that was it. You know, uh whereas a but now you can be bombarded with an absolute deluge of of misinformation, it's overwhelming. And remember, we're in an anxious cycle when our stress drug is full, sometimes being mindful in the present and having less information is often what our nervous system needs. And I am gonna say nervous system in that context because yeah, it's like it's running on fifth gear and it wants to run in first gear, and when you're giving it in a 10-minute session on the internet or on asking AI, more information than what your third generation ancestors would have in a decade, yeah, don't expect your your nervous system to calm down very quickly.

SPEAKER_05 33:24

Well, I think we weren't designed for that. We are not designed for the fire hose of information just jammed down our gullets 24-7. We were just simply not designed to digest that, I guess. You know, here's a useful use of like an AI bot, and then I want to do some did it anyways for sure, and we have a question. Like, you know, when we say do what not anxious me would do? I I actually had a person, and this was great. This was one of the greatest uses I've heard. This person sat down and said, Okay, let me tell you about the way I used to be. I used to like to do this, I I studied this at university, I have this degree, I my friends used to be in this these areas, I used to do these activities. I live in this part of the world. Can you give me some suggestions of things I might explore? That was such a great use because it was able to say, like, hey, did you know that there's three clubs like in that county that do this? And it helped that person start to explore the other parts of themselves again. I'm like, love that all day long. So, like, what can I do? You know, hey, ChatGPT, I'm I'm an anxious person that's bored right now and afraid to do stuff. Give me a suggestion, give me a game to play.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

Okay, cool. Yeah, yeah. How about that? That's all good yet. It's what non-anxious you would do. I used it the other day. I have to planning a football do pub crawl in Stockport. Have you ever heard of Stockport Drew? I have now, clearly. Yeah, it's like imagine the Bahamas, but in Lancashire. And um Yeah, that's it's pretty descriptive. Yeah, and instead I was like, and I asked it, can you plan me a you know, a pub crawl full of I I quote, rum and grim pubs mixed with classier bars? Is it a great use of it, you know? Am I sitting there going, how do you know my ectopic beats are not dangerous, even though my doctor did? And is there people and and have doctors misdiagnosed before? And how do you know I'm a good person? How do you know this intrusive thought isn't my intuition? How do you know that I don't love my girlfriend? How do I know that it's just a panic attack? You're gonna be there till the cars come on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:23

Rum and grim pubs. I'm gonna look for that as soon as we hang up. So I'm gonna try and find out what's what rum and grim pubs are.

SPEAKER_03 35:29

There's plenty of them, and uh yeah, yeah, it's not the Bahamas. I hear you. Very good.

SPEAKER_05 35:34

Uh, should we do we gotta did it anyway? And then we have one that also has a question attached to it. So let's play this one first and then we'll see what else we got.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

Hi, Drew and Josh. My name's Carrie. Feel free to use my name. I've been dealing with um health anxiety and panic disorder since I was about 11. Although I go through a lot of ups and downs, but I started listening to you guys last fall when I was in a really dark place, and I've tried so many things over the last 20 years, and for some reason your podcast really clicked with me. So I consider myself in recovery now. Occasionally I'll get, you know, I'll feel a panic attack coming on, but I'm able to kind of talk myself out of it. So I want to thank you guys for that because you've helped me tremendously, and I wanted to share a couple, did it anyways. My mom came to town a couple weeks ago, and we took my son, who's four, to SeaWorld, and it was super busy, and there were you know lots of walking around hot because we live in Florida, and I definitely had some anxiety, especially when I'd go to ride the rides and stuff. But I was able to have a really, really awesome time. I was glad I got to make those memories with my mom and my son. And then the following week, the whole week she was here, we were kind of doing stuff nonstop, so I was definitely tired, it was definitely out of my comfort zone. And then the next week, my boyfriend and I drove across the state to go to a concert. Um, concerts are a huge trigger of mine because I just get very overstimulated easily. But it was my favorite band, so I decided to just push through it and I ended up going, and it was a sold-out venue, so it was very packed, but I was able to get through it and we had a blast. Ever since then, I've been dealing with some heightened anxiety, but I know it's just because my stress drug is full at this point. So I want to thank you guys so much for everything you do.

SPEAKER_05 37:34

Wow. Talking about Billy Mays, right? Billy Mays. We got him. Where's Billy May? We haven't pressed any buttons. I know, that's true. It's been a long time. Where is Billy Mays? He's right here.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

But I'm not done yet.

SPEAKER_05 37:46

Yeah. Venerable Billy Mays. I miss him.

SPEAKER_03 37:50

Carrie sent you that picture where his son went to visit uh his grave, yeah, and someone had left a silic bang on the gravestone. Yeah, and his son found it hilarious.

SPEAKER_05 38:02

They left a bottle of oxyclean on his on his tooth. I think it was really great, yeah. Um carrie like killing it SeaWorld, a like hot in Florida like theme park, yeah, full of like kids and people and crowds, and then a sold-out concert.

SPEAKER_03 38:20

And then a concert, yeah. That's so much sensory input. Um, and I love the bit where she said, uh, and I know I'm anxious because my stress jug's full, yeah, which implies actually I can just leave it alone and tolerate it.

SPEAKER_05 38:33

Uh my uh I kind of dug the but they're my favorite band, so I decided to go. Ah, like values-based decisions, like, oh yeah, like the non-anxious Carrie loves this band, and I'm gonna go. I'm not gonna let this tell me that I can't.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

So very well done. Well done. Well done, Carrie. Have you noticed as well? Every time we get a I went to see a gig, they never tell us who it is.

SPEAKER_05 38:53

That's a good point. Could have been anywhere, could have been an ABBA cover band for all we know, and she's ashamed. I don't know. Which would be great.

SPEAKER_03 38:59

I was I'm waiting for like I once saw an Eagles cover band called The Talons.

SPEAKER_05 39:05

Oh, that's a good name for an Eagles colour band cover band. Yeah, they were good. Yeah, yeah. We got one around here locally called The Long Run. That's a good name, too. I've never seen them, but I don't know. Yeah, cool. Very good. Tell us if you do go to a gig, tell us who you saw. Like we're interested. And if you if you want, if you're so inclined, I guess. I'm waiting for the person that says they've been to a slipknot concert and I was in the mosh pit and I left bloody and it was awesome. I'm waiting for that person.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

Or I was the person who went to a cold play concert and started a mosh pit. That would be even funnier. Oh, that would be great. I started a mosh pit at cold play.

SPEAKER_05 39:41

I gotta store it out. I'm BS'd, I'm never allowed to see cold play again, but it was still worth it. Oh goodness. We do have another one that has a question attached. So you tell me, what do you want to do? You want to listen to this one or should we do a written one? Or yeah, we'll we'll squeeze in. We'll squeeze in. All right, so this is a I did it anyway, which is a really good one. And then there's a question, so we can end by answering this question. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

Hi, Josh and Drew. I have a did it anyway for you and a question. Uh, first of all, thank you so much for what you do. I have been uh putting off counseling for many, many years, and with help from your podcast and giving the resources and understanding of what you guys are doing and how anxiety actually functions, I decided to just turn into this kid and not put off counseling anymore. I um had my first session last week and I'm gonna have my next session next week. So that's great. And my question is: how do you determine what is one of the main anxiety points that's triggering you in order for me to practice the immersive techniques? I don't know really where to start. So hoping you guys can help there. Um, maybe I'm missing some information and uh need to listen to more podcasts. But thank you guys so much again. Appreciate everything.

SPEAKER_05 41:03

Great question. First of all, I turned into the skid might be one of the greatest metaphors I've ever heard. Like, you know, no, I'm gonna turn into the skid and I'm going to therapy. Good job, man. That's that's a brave step to take.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

That's a really good data anyway. Uh, how would you answer that, Drew?

SPEAKER_05 41:20

Um, I mean, you know, we're always talking about being anxious because you're anxious, fear of fear, that you know, I'm panicking because I'm panicking. So I think you got to start there. And for me, and again, we can't know because we've never met this person, but like, what is what's the main trigger? Well, usually the main trigger in our context is I'm I get triggered by a lot of things, and so I'm just don't want to get triggered again. So I would start with anything that makes difficult feelings, thoughts, sensations, emotions that you try to avoid and control, that's a good place to start. So I guess when he says immersive techniques, I think he's talking about exposure, I assume. So, like the exposures are only meant to trigger the bad feelings. So remember, the highway is not the exposure, the supermarket, the concert is not the exposure. The feelings that you get when you go into those places, those are the exposures. The difficult feeling when you try to sit quietly on your sofa for 10 minutes, that's the exposure. It's not the sofa. So that might help. What would you add to that?

SPEAKER_03 42:14

Yeah, I mean, it depends. Uh it's a bit like um, it depends what the immersion is. So, like I mean, it could be having it depends what type of therapy you're having. Uh, we always advocate, you know, that there's some form of exposure, third wave CBT involved in some capacity. Uh it's something I hear a lot in the EMDR community, though, for people with trauma, where they will invite you to find a trigger moment or a memory and immerse yourself in it and do bilateral stimulation. Uh again, it is guesswork here. Um, but if you if it also sounds like you don't really know what there is or there is an obvious place to start. So I'm gonna echo what Drew said and say, well, if you just have a fear of fear and anxiety itself, that is the trigger. Sometimes with that, in those cases, we can't intentionally trigger ourselves. Sometimes we're just anxious and it happens there and then. Yeah, you know. So um, yeah, it's without knowing more, I think just yeah, kind of identify when are you the most scared and start with there.

SPEAKER_05 43:17

Yeah, I think we would ask, you know, honestly, like when you're starting with a new client, usually it's like, okay, well, keep a journal of when you were triggered, you know, when did you find yourself really uncomfortable in the last week? Like, what would can you find the precipitating factor? What were you doing? What were you thinking at the time? What came up for you, and how difficult was that? And you start to sort of rank and so think of the things that you're afraid to do. And the triggers aren't those those are the triggers, but it's really the feelings. So it's a big question, but I think it could be confusing, and it does depend. Uh, definitely ask your therapist for sure. Like, I know thank you for listening to the podcast, but if you just started therapy, I would definitely ask your therapist that question, your counselor, ask them that question for sure. Like, how do I start?

SPEAKER_03 43:55

So should he ask chat GPT?

SPEAKER_05 43:58

No, don't in this case, I'm gonna say no. Don't like, hey, chat GPT, tell me what my anxiety triggers are and how to start, you know, being immersive about it. Like, he would have no idea what to tell you. It would give you stock answers. Yeah, that no, don't ask that. You have a counselor, and and again, kudos for that because it's often a brave step to take. Ask that person.

SPEAKER_03 44:17

I love how disgusted you were with me. I'm like, no, no, don't don't do that. Uh thank you for tuning in, guys. Go and subscribe to Drew Substack, it's fun. Yeah, I don't even know that you are it's really well done. Uh, if you thanks for the recent ratings of the podcast, if you have a moment and you'd like to give us a nice rating on Apple or Spotify or whatever, we really appreciate it. Helps the podcast get seen. Yeah, uh, it's good to be back. And um, yeah, we'll join you every Friday.

SPEAKER_05 44:49

Yeah, we'll be back.

SPEAKER_03 44:50

Thanks for listening.

SPEAKER_05 44:51

I'll put my sub stack in the description. How's that? Even though I haven't published anything on that one yet. But anyway, see you guys next week. We're out of