Anxiety and The Illusion of Control (Episode 116)

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hi Josh and Drew, thank you very much for your podcast. Uh Sari here from Switzerland. I suffer from anxiety and I didn't know for a long time because I'm a fixer, and whenever there's a problem, I like to fix things. And I wanted to ask you a question about uh the whole um thing with our generation or with our um situation in our world that we in countries like Switzerland we have healthcare which is very approachable, and we can do everything holistically, like we can analyze our gut, our our um amino acid status, you know, everything about your blood, how your brain works. Basically, you can do everything. And my question is also related to what's in your control, control, and what's not in your control, don't control. I'm very drawn to these holistic approaches because I feel like this is in my control, I can do something about it, therefore I can supplement or do whatever and be very fixed about this. But at the same time, I know this is also a fixation, but it it's really in my control. So, what do I do about this, or what's your recommendation for people who want to control things the things they can, but it's not really yeah, I'm not it's not really clear if it's now about controlling or fixing. Yeah, and I was wondering what your opinion about this is, about especially about the whole holistic medicine approach and supplements and whatever there is. Thank you very much, and please continue do your work. I absolutely love it. Bye.

SPEAKER_03 1:49

Welcome to Disorder. This is episode 116 called Anxiety and the Illusion of Control. I'm Joshua Fletcher, also known as Anxiety Josh, and I'm a psychotherapist based in Manchester in the UK, specializes in anxiety and anxiety disorders. And I'm joined by my esteemed co-host.

SPEAKER_04 2:09

Yes, I am Drew Linsolata. I am coming to you from New York, where I'm also a therapist that practices in the specialty of anxiety and anxiety disorders, and a former sufferer of these things we talk about here for many years. Better now, thankfully. Um, an author, psychoeducator, advocate, all of those things. Guy with an expensive mic, and the Atlantic Ocean other side of disorder.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

So east side is the best.

SPEAKER_04 2:35

No, West. This is the for the only time I get to be the West side. I have to go work with a guy from the UK to be in the West.

SPEAKER_03 2:42

What a what a great question. The illusion of control. I love the self-awareness of the question. Yeah, it's like I find myself drawn to these holistic things. You're not alone in that. Um, I think it's part of what's been a growing um what's the word, Drew? Growing, not just not a trend. It's like an entire market. I mean an entire market of self-optimization culture, you know, um, because you can sell optimization and the illusion of perfectionism to people, whether you have an anxiety disorder or whether you are a bored person, millionaire sat at home and wanting to do something, the illusion of chasing control, etc. In the context of anxiety disorders, um, it's really appealing, isn't it? We don't like feeling a certain way. So when we're told, well, you can mess with all the variables and make sure your amino acids are great and this is great, and all that's great, and all that's great, uh, then you might not feel bad because we hate feeling bad. Uh so we're going to discuss today, you know, where's the line? Obviously, it's okay to look after yourself and take an interest in health, but where's the line? What do you think, Drew?

SPEAKER_04 3:56

I think the line is then this is hard to really get your brain around this line. The line is the part where I recognize this feels like I'm controlling, but I I'm not. I like it, feels like this is under my control. And I think in this particular question, and thanks, thanks for sending it in, it is in your control to access, you know, tests and measure your levels and know everything right down to the smallest detail about your blood work. It is in your control to know that. That's true, but knowing is not necessarily controlling. And this is a pet peeve of mine when we look at optimum optimizing and thinking that we can hack or control physiology at a micro level or control our thoughts or control our emotions if we just find the right knobs and levers to operate. So I think the trick here is recognizing when I feel like I'm controlling something, but am I? Is this actually doing anything?

SPEAKER_03 4:51

And why?

unknown 4:52

Right.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

That's the first question I'd ask a client. Why? You know, now some people are like, well, actually, you know, I'm perimenopausal and I would like to have my cortisol levels checked. Yeah. Great, you know, definitely do that. If you've got excess cortisol and all that, and you want to make, you know, going through perimenopausal menopause easier, then yeah, you go for it. You know, I'm not gonna stop you. But if you're someone who well, I hate having an anxiety disorder, I hate feeling anxious every day. Let's let's just open up the hood and start messing around with stuff to see if that makes me feel better. Um, then have you know, do that with an air of caution, you know. So I have some people that come to me and say, Oh, to check, I I I've some cortisol busting techniques and diets and stuff like that. And did you know that your gut is your second brain? And and did you know all these things? And there's this, you know, the axis between the brain and the gut and all this stuff. And I'm like, okay, it's interesting, and there's science there to do it. But if you have an anxiety disorder, why? Well, if I fix my gut, I'll never feel bad again. Well, then that's what you know, that's when you're in trouble. Because as we know, the most important thing when you're working with an anxiety disorder is Drew has a button for it, I think. This one?

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Who doesn't, man?

SPEAKER_03 6:17

So I did enjoy that one.

SPEAKER_04 6:19

I had to get it in somehow. Well, we have so many buttons. You said it like a kid as well.

SPEAKER_03 6:24

This one?

SPEAKER_04 6:25

This one's Craig the Critic. Yeah, this one. I'm just gonna play the mobile.

SPEAKER_03 6:29

That's that one. Yeah, there we go. Um, Craig the Critic is in there as well. Yeah, but yeah, like what are you teaching your threat response? I the feeling of feeling scared is the threat. So if I'm behaving like it's a threat by the thrice fermented kimchi, the diets, the this, the regulating, the holistic approach that the question sender in a so brilliantly articulated, yeah, then what are you actually teaching the threat response? Yeah, I'll get off my soapbox. Sorry there, True. I went on a bit of a round.

SPEAKER_04 6:59

It was good. I mean, I think it's it's the topic today, and I think it's important. You know, at one point we've talked about the whole regulating thing and that, and people always get kicked, kick out of that, which I think I dumped regulators in favor. Did I?

unknown 7:10

Regulators.

SPEAKER_04 7:15

But I think one of the issues is uh, and I've always made this argument, like, well, I should be able to regulate, like I'm experiencing things that I don't like. I'm having thoughts that I don't like, I'm having emotions I don't like, I'm having physical sensations I don't like, they disturb me, they scare me. Yeah, they're really difficult 100%. We're not arguing that. So, therefore, since I feel a thing in my body and my brain exists in my body, that's always a popular mantra in the in the biohacking and like wellness industry. Remember, your brain does exist in your body. Yeah, I know. Like that's not news. But so since I don't like these things, I will look for things that let me control that feeling and turn it off, turn it down. It's not supposed to be there. But if the feeling is there, you might look at this as something is wrong. But when you decide that the feeling itself is now unacceptable, you are instructing your threat detection device, if you will, which is amygdala, right? So the instructions you send down to that lower part of your brain is watch out for this. And so it does like this is unacceptable. This is unhandleable, this is terrifying, this is a disaster, this should never happen. We need to get rid of this. You're literally saying, please be on the lookout for this problem. And then when it alerts you to the problem, now you've loop back again and say, but I should be able to turn that off. But is it dysregulated or is it following your instructions? So if that's not right. Like you can't ask it to look for this problem and protect you from it and then demand that it shut up by like eating the right foods.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

I mean, that's the price of admission on its own. You know, I I recommend anyone just rewind 90 seconds and listen to that again. That's exactly why self-optimization and anxiety disorders clash. Yeah, because you you're trying to do something, you're instructing it to do something else than getting frustrated, you know. Because if you're behaving like a feeling's a threat, then don't expect the threat response to turn off. Did you ever do it, Drew? I did. I used to I honestly spent so much money on crap. In fact, it actually made my rumination and self-obsession even worse because I did have low magnesium, and that's great because I came away. I was like, the doctor says I have low magnesium. I found the solution. So I went away, got my magnesium sulfate, bathed in it whilst listening to Mariah Carey and candles and whatnot. There we go. This bath is going to change my life. Let in a load of magnesium, but then I fell into compulsive fixing cycles. I got out of the bath. Has it absorbed yet? Do I feel better yet? Oh, maybe I do. Oh, yeah. Oh, maybe, maybe I do feel a bit better. Maybe I've got a bit more energy. More energy to be anxious because the next time I was anxious, I was like, well, it's not worked. Yeah. Or and then yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:02

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like yesterday I felt better. So, like, what exactly did I do? Oh, that's right. I ate this, and then I took a nap, and then I took this bath, and I better do that again because that worked. That that turned the knobs the right way. So let me do that again. I see that in my practice sometimes. Like, well, I didn't do my exposure this week. Okay, well, I mean, I'm not the teacher. I don't know. There's no like z you don't get a zero for not doing your exposure homework, but well, what what was going on? What was in the way? Well, I was really tired, and you know, like I ran out of my supplements and I didn't get to do this, and I I didn't get eight hours of sleep. Oh, I see. So, like, that is part of that. Like, no, no, no, no. I only go and do scary things when I completely optimize my state so that I won't be so scared. So it's really, it's literally the opposite of what we're trying to learn, which is that all states are permissible and handleable when they're natural, normal states. So the problem is not that your heart is racing or you feel keyed up or you're having a fire hose of thoughts. The problem is that you learn to be afraid of those things. And that is not a control. In fact, the problem is it's a control strategy, run amok. That's what creates this problem that we're always talking about. So I'm gonna fix it with more control, is not right.

SPEAKER_03 11:15

Yeah. I let's look at the from the other side, the other perspective. So I was just gonna say that. Obviously, like it's good to look after yourself. I do. So I have a particular interest in adding a lot of fiber to my diet because I know that fiber has been proven to be really good for your digestion, your overall health, your health, stuff like that. Yeah because I've got one eye on the future, because I'm being kind to myself. Like, you know, I'm not just gonna eat cheeseburgers every day, just every two days. No, and and just so but why am I doing that? Am I doing that because I hate anxiety, wanted to stop? No. But there is a gray area because I am doing it because I noticed that my mood is better. Yeah. My baseline mood, where in a world where all emotions are welcome, but my baseline mood is better when I do these wellness things. I go to the gym because I know my baseline mood will be better. You know, am I going to the gym because it's going to prevent me from having intrusive thoughts or feeling uneasy? No. Although, again, it's a gray area because then I am thinking, well, if my baseline mood's better, I probably will feel less anxious. And I would rather feel less anxious.

SPEAKER_05 12:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:29

But all again, all feelings are acceptable. So you can do these wellness things, but again, ask yourself why.

SPEAKER_04 12:37

Yeah, and I think you have to like, okay, what's in my control and what's not, which is sort of the question that kicked off the whole discussion. It is probably within your control to establish a reasonable baseline, and I think that's a great idea for everybody. But when people hear me say stuff like I say, they're like, Well, you're not into wellness, you're not into that. No, I of course I am. Like, eat well, exercise. You don't look like someone who's into wellness. No, I'm basically like I'm three trees burgers in and it's only 8:58 in the morning. Is that a bottle of bourbon? I see. With a funnel? What is that? So it's true. Like, people will think, like, oh, well, that's crazy. You're just completely dismissing like the role of your body. I'm like, no, I'm not. Like, I I mean, I spent years and years and years and hours a week in the gym and doing all those things. And like, yeah, so I did that too. Just that I had to learn that just crazy as it sounds, like going to the gym was a good wellness strategy, and it did help my overall well-being. But it also made it far harder at first because those were interoceptive exposures. So the gym, the wellness thing was at first a huge recovery challenge for me. Because when you rack a barbell and your heart is pounding and you have that little bit of a lightheaded feeling, and you fear those things. Holy shit, I had many, many, many panic attacks in the gym when I started lifting again and working out on a regular basis. So oddly, the control strategy was about relinquishing control, letting my body do what it was naturally designed to do.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

It's the same with me with meditate meditation. On the outside, if you're a fly on the wall, I look like I'm doing wellness and stuff. But I was doing it as an exposure. Like, whoa, I'm gonna sit here and allow thoughts and feelings without judgment. Yeah. Holy crap, that's scary as hell, you know. And and I'm not doing it to get rid of a feeling. The irony is I'm doing meditation, yeah. To do the opposite.

SPEAKER_04 14:27

Yes, to allow the feelings, to learn.

SPEAKER_03 14:30

I'm not techniqueifying it.

SPEAKER_04 14:31

I'm just which people I think they miss that part. Like, well, my med meditation doesn't work for me, it doesn't calm me down. Well, it's not meant to calm you down. Like when we use meditation and practices like mine and Josh, where what I'm teaching people is no, no, no, no. I want you to watch how quickly you want to squash this and then choose to not squash it. That's what we're learning to do. So you might feel more before you feel less, which is true.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

Yeah, lots of those things. Um I mean, in the midst of it, I wouldn't be disordered if Drew didn't have uh an update from OKCupid or his latest RuneScape account. He's just got to level 105 in fishing. So stay away from the water because that's Drew's water.

SPEAKER_04 15:13

My goodness. I I don't know. This is a tough topic because where is, you know, how do I reconcile my need or my desire to fix and control, fair enough, with knowing what really is control and what isn't. I think one of the things I want to address too that, and it's a bit of a mini rant, you know, I I promise won't go too long, but I think that if you are have the propensity to want to fix and control, and you're drawn to that. And I'm drawn to the idea that we can holistically manage our bodies at a greater degree than we've ever been able to do that, there's an entire industry worth billions with a B of dollars with a giant cannon pointed directly at you. And we have to be cognizant of the fact that howitzer. Yeah, it is a howitzer of, and I'm gonna put this in air quotes, science, science, right? Because what we wind up with is science, badly interpreted, incorrectly described, overreaching conclusions drawn from very limited studies, because they will garner your attention. It is so important to recognize that we do know more about how the brain works, we do know much more about how the body works, but knowing doesn't automatically mean that we know how to control these things. How ridiculous would it be for nature and evolution? And I'm sorry if I'm stepping in anybody's like spiritual beliefs here, but it's taken us a long time to get to this form. And this form ain't great. We there's still a lot of work to do here. Speak for yourself. Well, true. But in the end, the mechanism would be terribly designed by natural selection if if we just stumbled upon a bush that we'd never seen, but ate that those berries and turned off our amygdala. Like that would be awful. We would have we would have never made it here. So I think one of the problems is the industry that's designed to promote things like holistic, like you can manage your thoughts and change your frequencies and like manage your gut health and feel better is based on the idea that you can control things that you simply cannot control. You they're not controllable. These things don't necessarily hurt you. And if they make you feel like you're doing something for yourself, then there's definitely a benefit in that. But I think you got to be careful about overreaching on well, since this study said that this particular vitamin seemed to be connected to I'll just I'll just like mega dose that vitamin and I'll I'll fix this.

SPEAKER_03 17:39

It's always a new one, as well, isn't it? Ashwagander, CBD still knocking around, doing all these things, promising you stuff. You know, it's just like no. And this is where we get to humble brag in a way, where it's like every week we'll get an email from a company to sponsor disordered and be like, we'll pay you X amount uh, you know, to promote our product on disorder. It's like you, you dudes, you've not listened to the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 18:10

Yeah, you have no idea what this is about. But I think one of the things that you have to recognize, like, so if the original question is, I like to control and fix, but how do I know when I'm gone when I'm when I'm not controlling or when I've gone too far, it's out of my control. Well, if the message keeps changing, and if your sources for that information and everybody gets their favorite sources, that's fine. If they keep changing and moving on to the next miracle thing and the next supplement and the next groundbreaking science and neuroscience that tells you how to fix your well-being forever, there's a really good clue that something is up there. So, you know, we have a guy. I don't want to get you know what? Forget it.

SPEAKER_03 18:47

I'm not gonna do that because no, well, no, no, wait. Why why don't we try and did it anyway, and then we can decide if you want to rant more.

SPEAKER_04 18:53

That's good. It gives me a little cooling off. So let's hear Franzi did it anyway, and I'll decide if I want to name names.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Hi, Josh and Drew. This is Gina, and you can use my name. I first want to both thank you very much again for everything that you have done for myself and everybody that listens. Um, I am truly appreciated of everything that you both have done. So I have a did it anyway. I was uh my birthday was yesterday, 64. I went to Mystic, Connecticut with my daughter, my fiance, and her um boyfriend, and it was extremely crowded. Everything in me wanted to turn around, but I thought of all of the exposure that you both have said is instilled in everybody and will help. And I went into the stores, and I could have never done this um six months ago. I wanted to each store, we had a great time, got some really great mother-daughter permanent bracelets. Yeah, it was extremely crowded, but I went through each store and we went shell hunting, which I love, and it was just fantastic. And then that night for my birthday, I met my coworkers, which I've always said no to, and we went to a restaurant, little bar on the water, and I went in and it was warm, and the old me would have definitely turned around. But I used everything in my power and exposure and did not let the anxiety win, and I had a fabulous time. I am definitely on a great recovery, uh, due to both of you and your books, and I just cannot thank you both enough.

SPEAKER_03 20:53

Gina Rodney. That was solid. Well done. I love that. Yeah, should we get mother-daughter bracelets?

SPEAKER_04 21:01

Well, the the disturbing part of you was permanent. So, Gina, can you send us a picture? Because I believe in this daughter had bracelets. I believe there was arc welding involved, so somehow these bracelets were permanently affixed, but like that ass. I don't know what that means, but like, okay.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

Also, that deserved uh uh Billy Mays. That was excellent, right?

SPEAKER_02 21:21

Because I'm not done yet, she just kept going.

SPEAKER_03 21:24

That was awesome, and then went out with colleagues later. And oh, that was a that was a brilliant well done and happy 64th birthday.

SPEAKER_04 21:32

100%. So Gina sounds like a lovely person to hang around with, right? So, and it was really hot here when she was recording that on her birthday. We had that crazy heat wave, so like I understand how difficult that must have been for her. So great job.

SPEAKER_03 21:44

Well done, Gina. We really appreciate it. Uh so who are you gonna rant about?

SPEAKER_04 21:49

Uh, I don't know, maybe cooler heads. I mean, I was gonna use Dr. Oz because Dr. Oz is famous here. And then Dr. Oz is he's got a good high government position here because that's what's going on here at the time.

SPEAKER_03 21:59

I don't know who Dr.

SPEAKER_04 22:00

Roz is Dr. Oz. Okay, so let me explain Dr. Oz for those of you who are outside of the United States. Dr. Dr. Mehmet Oz. Now, I actually met that guy because he was the chief of thoracic surgery at Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center, a very respected physician at an incredible, you know, uh institution of medicine. And I met him because I had a friend of mine at the time who was gonna have a transplant done. And we went and I took her and she met with Dr. Oz, who consulted with her. Really cool, right? And then Dr. Oz got an Oprah because he was writing books, and Oprah found Dr. Oz and the Oprah effect kicked in, like it does when she gets really excited about somebody, and then she talks about their books and puts them on their show, and then they get their own little ecosystem. And then she moves on to still waiting for Oprah's email. I know, or sooner or later, we'll have the Oprah effect. And Dr. Oz then had a daytime TV show here in the US where this highly respected physician, chief of thoracic surgery at Clumbery Presbyterian, started talking about the craziest bullshit in plain English. Every day he had an hour of TV to fill every day, which is not easy to do. And he he was in the attention business, not the healing business anymore. So it got to the point where the US Congress at some point called him in to testify to say, How can you go on our airwaves and tell people these crazy things that do they really work? And he was like, Oh, it was called he was called up. He was called out on the record saying, Well, this is entertainment, and I had a lot of TV to fell. So he had to say, No, I don't know. These things were not real. This this is not always science, but this is entertainment, not medicine. Ah, uh, so like take Dr. Oz. I'm not picking on the guy, I don't agree with him, but he literally said the quiet part out loud. I say science, I say medicine, I make sure that you know I'm Dr. Oz. But on the backside, I'm gonna tell you, yeah, but this is only this is just entertainment. I gotta fill an hour a day, people, so I'm gonna put poop pills on.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Yeah, yeah, I think, but that's I think that's a really good example of trust words being abused.

unknown 24:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

That's your title, and there's plenty of them, you know. You you know my feelings about people in the anxiety space called doctor, insert name, insert name. Oh yeah, and I'm a scientist, that's nothing to do with anxiety disorders, uh, but that makes me an expert. And then you use words like science, um, which is often associated with polyvagal theory, and yet there is no empirical uh evidence to suggest that you can back it. But it's it and it's even spread to therapists as well. So I know we have a lot of therapists listening to be very careful of that. Like, oh, this is science, this is neuroscience. Neuroscience is the famous one now. I know a couple of neuroscientists, and every day they wake up, they eat their corn flakes and just smash their head against a wall to relieve themselves from the frustration of their field being abused with that terminology, you know, they're using that. Oh, this is neuroscience, and it's just you be very careful and it's appealing. It's where marketing and self-optimization is just pushing the limits. And remember, if you've got an anxiety disorder and you're frantically looking for the answers, we know we've been there. I and I I've even said this on this podcast, haven't I, Drew? I am so happy I had my anxiety disorder back then. Yeah, you know, I'm glad I had some internet, but not lots of internet. Because if you have lots of internet, oh my gosh, my brain would have been bombarded and it would have made everything confusing.

SPEAKER_04 25:31

It's funny because you said, you know, magnesium sulfate. You got magnesium sulfate. See, I would have argued to the death with you. It has to be magnesium citrate, and you must ingest it, not soak it in. Because the information I was getting was based on an article that was published, Who the Hell Knows When? And the name of the article was The Miracle of Magnesium. I mean, listen, I understand publishers doing the business of how is magnesium a miracle. Uh, if you Google it, it's a very old article because I was introduced to the miracle of magnesium when I was going through my antidepressant discontinuation nightmare. And like the the forum that I was on, that was all the thing. There was a regimen that everybody and I and I was in it. It was magnesium citrate that and it's called natural calm here in the States that you could buy it on Amazon, it's cheap. And I would put that in my antioxidant decaf tea in the morning, and I would mix it in, and it was vile, but I would drink it anyway, and then you had to be taking fish oil, but it had to be pharmaceutical grade only from the coldest water. I didn't know, I didn't know you did that. So you know full well the illusion of control that was minimal that we're talking about pre-2010. So the internet wasn't what it is now. There was not 68 million podcasts all claiming neuroscience, biohacking. Everyone's doctored this. By the way, chiropractors, please stop, doctor, blah, blah, blah. You're a chiropractor. Fight me, fight me. Sorry. But like we didn't have that, but yet there were thousands of people all going through this withdrawal process from these SSRIs who were religiously bought into fish oil and and the green tea, and because it was L-theanine would calm you down, and magnesium, and then tart cherry extract.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

But the things all those things are good for you. Yeah, sure. But again, I'm not sure keep saying it. Right. Why are you doing it? Because I don't like a feeling.

SPEAKER_04 27:32

And I think you know, you can address a base wellness level. There's nothing wrong with that. Like, those things are good for you. There's nothing wrong with fish oil. Like, yeah, there's a lot of data that says that diets high in fish oil are protective against certain conditions. But but we're talking about a base level. There's only so much control you have over your emotions and your thoughts, and even the automatic parts of your body. We don't think get to control those. So the illusion of control is like, well, I think I'm doing something makes me feel like I'm doing. You know what? I would argue this, and maybe you have an opinion on this. What is the difference between filling your cupboard or your pantry or whatever it is with supplements, all natural that you know, Huberman and the and those guys are telling you are the greatest thing and they're gonna fix you? What's there between that? I'm sure they did that off their own volition as well, and there was no money involved. Oh no, absolutely, definitely not. But like, what's the difference between filling your cabinet with natural herbs and supplements and holistic cures and thinking that's recovery and listening to podcasts, watching videos, and reading books while you sit on your sofa and calling that recovery? Is there a difference?

SPEAKER_03 28:35

Very minimal.

SPEAKER_04 28:36

Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 28:37

The defenseless is a very oh, we should have played the music from Boston Legal.

SPEAKER_04 28:46

Oh I love I love that show, or that law and order.

SPEAKER_03 28:51

I don't know if you guys have that or not. Um yeah, no, I I get I get what you mean. And again, that is the an illusion, isn't it? It's an illusion of control, it's an illusion I'm doing something, uh, and it shuts up Craig the Critic. Yeah, you know, Craig Critic wants you to do something, and anxiety voice wants you to not do it. Yeah, and so you can appease both. Well, I can not do something by taking this supplement, and I can appease Craig the Critic by saying, Well, I have done something I've taken. Oh, ooh, and we might be on something there, quite like that. That was really good.

SPEAKER_04 29:25

We have two major mic drops in one episode today, yeah. Just saying, two things, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:31

And this is why this podcast is sponsored by Huel, perfect energy drink, a mixture of prebiotics and a balanced. Sorry, you have Huel there too. Huel is everywhere here. It's ever uh Stephen Butler bangs on about it. Um every he turns to the camera and goes, I genuinely believe an insert quote sponsor is the best thing since I'm like, dude, man, come on.

SPEAKER_04 29:58

I promise I'll get off this. But like for the last two we were talking about this, so like revamping podcasts and how we make content and all that stuff. Like, I was spending a lot of time learning about like how my camera works and blah blah blah. I'm watching all these YouTube videos. I learned a lot, but you know almost immediately, like, oh, three and a half minutes into this six-minute video about lens sizes and focal lengths. Oh, here comes the product placement. I'm and I okay, fine. This guy is you know making photography or videography. That's just how he makes his living. He has to make money. I'm okay with that. But it sure was sneaky. Like, hey, why am I why am I googling like Panasonic Lumix open gate cameras here for $2,000? Oh, wait a minute. That was a sponsored video. You know he kind of says it or it shows up in the thing. But there's no difference between camera lenses and and supplements or herbs or programs or any of those things. And listen, you can want it to work. I think we have to address that. I wanted magnesium and fish oil to work in the I wanted it to work in the worst way. And I and I do love science and I do love the ability to learn new things, and I and I think that's all great. But just because we want it or want to believe it, doesn't mean it is the actual thing that we want. And that's a hard pill to swallow. For me, it was a really hard pill to swallow. This is doing nothing for me. I gotta get off this.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

And and if you uh if you treat recovery as a phobic state, I'm afraid of a phobic state. I have a phob, it's it's a lot of it is uh overlaps with phobia. So it's the equivalent of saying, right, I have a fear of dogs, and I must go stroke the dog because I it it's debilitating in my life. You go to the park, you sit on a bench, and you're preparing your exposure to go and see the dog, but then you top up on L-theanine and magnesium and fish oil, and you're drinking CBDT, and you're doing all these things to prepare because you think that stroking the dog it will be less scary. And let's say in this world, and this is why it doesn't work, let's say in this world, all that did. You know, I've done this. I used to drink alcohol to make things less scary, because it did.

SPEAKER_05 32:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

But did it rewire the amygdala? No. All it taught the amygdala was that all these products and the alcohol stuff that are getting the credit for you doing the scary thing. And just have that in your head. Look in your all these supplements, have them if you want it. There's no harm in them unless you've lower money, then don't you know, don't waste your money, you know, whatever. But like look, make sure you get the credit for when you're doing the scary thing. Um, yeah, just ask why. You might just have to have supplements because you have a health condition, completely fine. But what I'm saying is why? I hope this stops me from panicking. I hope this stops this intrusive thought from OCD happening. I hope that this thing, this wellness thing, stops me from compulsing, or it makes it easier to compulse. You know, why are you doing it? And yeah, I mean, that's that's what we'd invite you to reflect on.

SPEAKER_04 33:01

Yeah, I think you're right. Uh, you may have to make a choice here. And and it's fluid, it's not black and white or forever, but I think at some point everybody in their recovery journey, from our standpoint, so like Josh and I come from our hammer that we bring to the table here, our Thor's hammer is psychological flexibility, tolerance, right? Learning a new relation with your the way you work. Whereas for somebody who maybe is a legitimate neuroscientist or is in physiology, they're in the physiological realm, Thor's hammer for them is hacking, is trying to control your physiological processes. I don't blame them for that. That's the world that they live in. But sometimes I think everybody that's going down this path that we're describing, there's a fork in the road where I'm going to say, well, I like this willful tolerance, surrender, psychological flexibility stuff. But I also want to want to somehow control the physiology underneath that. I do not believe those are compatible things. So at some point, I have to either decide to go physiology or I have to decide to go this way, primarily to read I'm on my go-to, my reliance. This is what I'm trying to learn here. And I think that's okay. If you're drawn more to the physiology, you can do that. But just ask yourself, is it is there an outcome? Am I getting the outcome that I thought I was going to get here? If I'm not, well, then I have to question it. And I would say the same thing about our approach. If you've been doing the thing that we talk about all the time and you're not getting that outcome, well, people send in questions like, what am I doing wrong? Or can I adjust this? Or do am I misunderstanding? Question it. It's okay. You're allowed to question.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

So Yeah. I like the psychological flexibility. I I created a willful tolerance exercise, by the way. Oh, not to be used compulsively or technique if I'd um, but it was with someone well, it was like Yeah, it was with a friend. A friend rang near they're having a panic. And I said, Right, okay. Put me in your headphones. Let's walk around. And I said, Here's a game. How many red cars can you see whilst anxious? One, two, three, four, five. Oh, I'm anxious. Oh, well done. You did it. Okay. Um, how many what different types of tree can you see whilst feeling anxious? Oh, that's a fir tree, that's an oak tree. Um, well done, you're doing it. You know. But I'm still anxious. I know, that's the game. Because your curiosity and your attention whilst anxious. Because it catches out your age-old habit of well, I'm looking at trees and I'm distracting myself, but has it gone yet? No, no, the game is to do it whilst anxious. So if anyone wants to pinch that, it's great. But don't technique if I absolutely no, you get shouted at. Should we read some did it anyways?

SPEAKER_04 35:43

Yeah, we could totally do that. You sent me one. Let me look at that real quick. You got one to read? Yeah, I can read this one. Sure. It's a really good one.

SPEAKER_03 35:52

Okay. Uh, I'm not sure if this person gave permission to leave their name, so I'm not going to assume. I just wanted to say that I've recently found your podcast, and within a week, it's already made me think about anxiety very different. And it's really life-changing to hear stories from all over the world of people having similar feelings and experiences. And Amazing did it anyways. I have felt anxious for quite a few years, and after and more after the death of my mother, subsequent many other family changes, and then the pandemic. I have already had a big win inspired by your podcast. Firstly, I haven't been on a train in around a year, and longer journeys for around two years. And last week, after listening to two of your episodes, I went alone on the train for a few stops to the coast and walked down to the seafront. I absolutely love the sea, so it was wonderful to take myself there. I felt anxious at first on the train and there just accepted it and settled in. I've also recently started dating someone, and your episode on dating really helped me. Told you, Drew. I thought it was a good idea. I knew that he'd planned a surprise for me, and I was really ruminating on what it could be and how I was going to cope with it. I had an inkling it was going to be a boat trip, and I hadn't been on a boat in two years either, and that wasn't a great experience. After hearing your episodes, I was able to chat to him briefly about uh anxiety, which he responded to really well. Hooray! Always a bit scary to announce. And it did turn out to be a the boat trip, good intuition, to an isolated island in the baking heat. And I felt anxious and I was on the boat feeling scared, and I felt scared on the island and in the heat, but helped by your heat episode. But I just allowed it and all went really well. So thank you so much for your episodes. I feel much more part of a community of people and not a singular oddity, and therefore it feels a lot easier to work through it, feeling that there and that there are lots of people behind me now. I'm really feeling hopeful that the newfound support has given me, and I'm really fully willing to lean into it now. Best wishes. Oh I bet Billy Mays was on that island because there were so many did uh not done yet. Heat, anxiety, dating, uncertainty. That's willful tolerance there. All of it. None of them are special.

SPEAKER_04 38:22

Like I'm gonna go on a boat to an isolated island in the searing heat with this new person that I'm dating now. Holy mackerel. It's so good. Very good.

SPEAKER_02 38:32

I'm not done yet.

SPEAKER_04 38:33

Definitely good milling maze, for sure. Well done. Um, I got one, so I didn't have one. Josh found it and sent it to me. I'll give you full credit. But anyway, I'll read it. Um, hi Josh and Drew. My name is Kathy. You can use my name. I love your show and always find it very helpful. I have suffered from anxiety for a while, and one of my biggest fears is emetophobia. That's the fear of vomiting. Um, I try to avoid it at all costs. So, despite always listening to your podcast every week, I thought I am definitely never listening to that episode. It was episode one of uh Darren and Dr. Eustail on. So, my did it anyway was to decide to listen to the episode as a kind of exposure therapy on my morning walk. I was pretty worried about how I would feel. And I was I was kind of scared that Drew might do a regurgitation sound effect. They know me, they really know me. But I managed to listen to the whole thing. So thank you. I did it anyway. Oh, it's really great.

SPEAKER_03 39:26

It's a good exposure, that one, isn't it? It is and to be honest, when you look at the stats, emetophobia is it always gets requested, but there's not it doesn't have as many because everyone's like hovering, like, oh, I don't want to I want to hear about this, but I don't want to hear about it.

SPEAKER_04 39:42

Yeah, so great job. It is a good episode. Yeah, you know what? It is really hard when we work with I work with a lot of emetophobes, and that's where we start is the words often. Like, okay, what are the words you don't want to hear? We're gonna start, we'll start with those. So that was really hard for you to do. Congratulations, you did it. Good job. There's no there's no regurgitation. By the way, if you want to listen to that episode, I promise there's no sounds.

SPEAKER_03 40:04

Yeah, we don't provoke and things like that.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

No, we just talk about you 100% provoked. You you re you told you told them like how you cure your emetophobia is essentially was eat the slimiest thing in the fridge. So but that's as bad as it got, I promise. It really wasn't that bad. Oh, yeah, yeah. I used to have a metaphobia pretty badly. I get yelled at like a few of my therapy clients for that episode. I didn't know he was gonna say that.

SPEAKER_03 40:29

I'm like, well, you're yeah, well, we're not in the business of avoiding triggers, everyday triggers as well. But there's no silly, horrible, provocative ones. It's just, you know, it's an easy it eases you into it. It's a good first step exposure, as as uh demonstrated by that wonderful did it anyway. Yeah, very good.

SPEAKER_04 40:45

All right, so that's like uh, you know, am I really controlling or am I not? That's the that's today's episode. I think you're controlling, yeah, true. I'm super controlling, I'm toxic. You're taxing. I am taking a hit today, man. Cheeseburgers controlling. Person thinks I was gonna trigger them with a vomit sound. Oh, nice. I appreciate it. Uh thanks for all the like nice reviews you guys are leaving for us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. There's more and more. It's really cool. I like our our our community appears to be growing, which is really kind of cool.

SPEAKER_03 41:18

It's really nice, yeah. Well, also, if you've got to this far in the episode and not turned us off to go listen to Dr. Russell Kennedy, um, then we have a health anxiety book out soon. Keep an eye out for it. The first official announcement of it.

SPEAKER_04 41:33

Oh my goodness. I don't know, see how many people got this far. That's exactly right. If you want to know more about that, just go to disorder.fm where you can send us a voicemail or an email. I did it anyway, or ask a question, and you can hop on our mailing list because I'm sure we will talk about the disordered guide to health anxiety on that mailing list at some point. So just saying.

SPEAKER_03 41:50

Yeah, that sounds cool.

SPEAKER_04 41:54

Thanks, Drew. Yep, thanks. Catch you all soon. We'll be back next week.